I went out there and asked the question !

[Teresa]

I've searching for the thread where the comment was made that most women think CDers are gay .

I couldn't find it but in my reply I suggested that it wasn't the case but to find out for certain go out and ask the question.

Since then I've posed the question to GG friends and SAs I know well enough to ask the question.

Most gave the same answer that something inside us felt the need to wear something pretty and or feminine but the reasons weren't clear. I also found most women were better informed than I expected, again most said that they didn't associate a CDer with being gay and again most knew that gay men weren't attracted to CDers.

When I explained that I was TG, despite my own thoughts that many people think TG means the same as TS most knew the difference. I felt really encouraged with the response I received, they were far more knowledgeable and accepting. Despite the question posed recently on the forum they weren't offended or insulted in anyway , in fact they appear to enjoy telling me how good I looked from my pictures. Again going back to a thread I posted about keeping things natural many said they wished I had my figure and legs. On the point of hip and butt padding , many just laughed and said they didn't want to carry that extra themselves so why did CDers wish to spend the money to copy it.

When it comes to our own wives/partners the first question often asked is are we gay obviously as their mate it's an obvious question but to outsiders it far from their thoughts.

I personally can't believe how quickly I've moved on, when I came to this forum I was in a mess. In what feels like three short years , through much encouragement from members I have been through gender counselling, and so managed to come to a workable DADT situation with my wife, and my family are all OK with my CDing. Also through a member I met through the forum I am now going out dressed and meeting other members of the TG community.
If someone told me all this would happen in that short time I would have laughed at them, so all I can say is those who believe it can't happen, believe it can and it more than likely will .

[ellbee]

Hi Teresa,

Thanks for the field research! :thumbsup:


At least in my personal experience, I've found that a good majority of GG's are pretty much fine (or at least neutral) with it all, and some even genuinely fascinated by it. And it definitely helps if it looks like you know what you're doing & put some effort into it, resulting in a natural/realistic & eye-pleasing overall look. They do appreciate it that much more if you look well put-together. And yes, many do seem open & even somewhat knowledgeable about it, at least on some basic levels.

What I'm seeing where some of the trouble might lie, though, is when that GG is an SO. Not always, but often enough. And there's where your "as their mate it's an obvious question" comes in. Weird how that works, but that's how it seems to be oftentimes.


Of course, with non-CD hetero guys of a certain age bracket, that's when things can sometimes get a bit more... harsh. I'll just leave it at that, for now. :laughing:


Anyway, thanks again for taking the time. I think that's pretty helpful for many here.

And yes, GG's can certainly be our allies, so to speak. Gotta love 'em for that! :)

[Lorileah]

It's an ok research project with many inherent flaws. You asked your friends who you know personally. They aren't going to say anything to hurt your feelings to start with and your circle of friends usually share your perspective on a great many things. So the results are going to be non-committal at best and semi-supportive at worst Or you unfriend them.

It is often pointed out here that women you are NOT in a relationship with will be more supportive too. You didn't poll men. If, however, you would have questioned women who up to that point had an interest, the gay question would be in the top two. I have to think your friends are semi-educated, at least on your level. That would mean they have insight that many who aren't in any way interested in the Trans world bears on this too. But the good inference here is people are learning more about the community and are willing to learn and change.

Also the "gay" question is often asked (at least of me) in a less direct manner. "so...do you like men?" "Are you into men now?" (or cruder phrasing) and number one on my hit parade now "Have you met the man of your dreams?". OK maybe not fair since I am TS and that would not really be gay. It is rare that I get "have you met the woman of your dreams?" but sometimes I go get the generic "person".

If this quiz had been anonymous, the skew would tilt more toward people think "we" are gay (along with mentally off, perverts, trying to trick men, clowns, somehow broken in childhood). The other day I had a conversation with two women at lunch (who I didn't know, they just sat beside me) about Caitlyn. She is their reference point and they admitted she wasn't the shining star the transcommunity needed, they pointed out her many flaws. Gay wasn't one though.

[Lana Mae]

This is also a small sampling in a specific area. The results are going to be regional depending where you are. A lot of "Well I better not find him in the bathroom!" here in NC. Anyway your results are only as good as where you get your samples from. I believe we are growing as there is a large faction even here in NC who are against HB2. Just remember as in statistics, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure!" LOL Hugs Lana Mae

[Dana44]

Teresa, that was a good list of questions and well, I would say that women are more updated on their views. Kinda good but there are lot that older ladies that are not kind to us. But the majority is becoming more tolerant and that is a plus for us.

[ellbee]

It's an ok research project with many inherent flaws. You asked your friends who you know personally. They aren't going to say anything to hurt your feelings to start with and your circle of friends usually share your perspective on a great many things. So the results are going to be non-committal at best and semi-supportive at worst.

And for those asked who *don't* have a current or former friend / acquaintance / customer / whatever that's a CD'er, well, guess what? Greater odds of someone talking bad about someone they don't know. Why? Because they don't know a particular person, but the overall *idea* of someone doing this maybe "turns them off," so to speak.

But would that change if a CD'er came into their life & they had positive experiences with them? Suddenly, the idea of CD'ing is no longer this general concept to be feared / hated / disgusted by, but instead is now personalized & humanized. And with that, comes greater knowledge & wisdom, with a better shot of understanding & acceptance. Because there's now a "face" to this whole thing -- which belongs to a real person.


Not sure if that makes sense, but it does in my head, anyway. :laughing:

[Alice Torn]

It also depends on what region one lives in.

[Teresa]

Dana,
The ages range from mid thirties to a lady who still runs a bridal shop in her eighties, some of them aren't close friends but I know them well enough to ask the questions, they were genuine answers, if they thought there was a closer connection they would have definitely said so.

Lorileah,
Going back to the original thread or reply , the statement made was that women thought all CDers must be gay and it was their first thought.
Obviously I didn't go and approach total strangers and announce I was a CDer and from that would they assume I was gay.

Very often most of these statements are about what GGs think, very rarely do we ask what men think, although one of the GGs I spoke to did say her brother would react badly to a CDer but then she went on to suggest that maybe he was suppressing something, as it's often the case.

Alice,
I know where your comment is coming from, you feel your area isn't CD friendly. I will admit the seamstress that does my alterations has several other CDers on her books and she she that I would have no problems coming out in my own town as it's very accepting of the TG community, do get that feeling when I shop.

[CONSUELO]

Teresa,

It was brave of you to ask that question of people of your acquaintance. There is always a risk that someone may take offense at being asked such a thing.
However, I think the outstanding point of your post is what it says about you. Indeed you have come a long way in the last three years. I detect a much happier and more stable person and also one with lots more confidence. I know that your SO is not comfortable but let's hope that changes for the better too.

So, congratulations on having the strength to carve out your own life and not just stay back in the shadows. As I have followed your progress over the years I feel very happy that the people on this site may have helped in some small way but the hard work was still yours, so take credit.

[Micki_Finn]

You never told us exactly what question you asked. Even the language you use to ask can influence responses. While I appreciate what you're trying to do, I'm afraid it has very little research value.

[Teresa]

Micki,
The question was, is the first assumption women have are most Cders gay ? Our wives/partners may ask that first but is it the first question GGs in general make ?

I answered in the thread that it wasn't but suggested that we go out and ask, so that's exactly what I did. It's not intended as part of any research but it's going out in the real world and talking to people we come into contact with mostly through our CDing.

When we talk about passing and being accepted these are the sort of people we need to talk and listen to, they are ordinary people who maybe influence how we go out in the World.

Consuelo,
I guess it shows how the forum does help, it gives you strength and courage and belief in yourself . As you know I have had to come to terms with all this in a DADT situation.
If I'd stayed on the rollercoaster situation when I first joined I wonder if I might have gone down the road I was on twenty years ago but maybe not lived to tell the tale the second time round. I know what I am now so I have come to terms with it , CDing is something you can enjoy once you come to terms with it so there's no way I'm going to do anything drastic now.
Many thanks for your supportive words.

[ReineD]

I also found most women were better informed than I expected, again most said that they didn't associate a CDer with being gay and again most knew that gay men weren't attracted to CDers.

At one point you said that your wife asked if you were attracted to men. And when I read posts from our members who relate coming out to their wives, they also say this is one of the first questions asked. When my SO first told me he was a CDer, I naturally assumed he meant that we could not be romantic partners (I assumed he was attracted to men), so I responded to his email with "I'm sorry that we can't be involved but I want you to know that I still want to be your friend". lol. He then immediately responded that of course we could be involved because he was not attracted to men (which surprised me).

So if the majority of wives/girlfriends (that we read about here, including me) ask about attractions to men when they first find out, how can it be that most women know better?

... in your case, maybe the women you spoke to know that you are married, and so they know that YOU are not gay?

[Teresa]

Reine,
I have to admit most do know I'm married, sometimes I feel married men just have that look or it's a vibe !!

At my last meeting I did stop over at another members home, it was a barbecue so we could have a drink as well. My wife did comment that their neighbours might think we were gay. I pointed out to her that the other member has no interest in me and I don't with him, but she she worry more if a woman was involved. So then she asked if I was looking for another woman , looks like a no win situation !
Mayb

[ReineD]

Reine,
I have to admit most do know I'm married, sometimes I feel married men just have that look or it's a vibe !!

This explains it then. If I knew very little about the CDing (if I was not in a relationship with my SO), and a married CD aquaintance asked if I thought most CDers were gay, of course I'd say no. I wouldn't want to insult my acquaintance. I know that in general, hetero men (and I would assume my aquaintance was hetero if he was married to a GG) do not like others to think they are gay.

[Micki_Finn]

Micki,
The question was, is the first assumption women have are most Cders gay ?


This is kind of what I'm talking about. If this is the exact question you asked, you're asking women to speculate on the reactions of the majority of womankind. A better question would have been "If you found out a man was a crossdresser, would you think he's gay".

It's the difference between "Do you think most crossdressers are gay?" and "Do you think men think most crossdressers are gay?"

[Stephanie47]

I think the sampling was informal and not scientific, but, it is what it is. You asked people who know you and you asked people, especially sales associates, who probably have encountered a decent sample size to arrive at the conclusion the vast majority of us are not gay.

[Teresa]

Some of you have asked how I put the question, maybe I should answer that point.

I approached the subject by telling them that I was a member of an online forum and the point raised in a discussion was GG's first thought was that Cders must be gay, and what did they think about that comment. I didn't ask if they thought I was gay because of my CDing so they didn't have the concern of offending me.

The point being raised about the validity of my question and it not being researched, well we don't rub shoulders with counsellors or therapists every day but we do deal with ordinary people, the ones that serve us coffee the SAs we buy clothes and shoes from . They are the important ones, they are the ones we talk about getting validity from so they are the ones to go out and ask. We sometimes go round in circles posing questions to each other when we should be out there talking and asking the right questions to the right people. That's exactly what I decided to do, we want to be accepted and integrate into society so go out and do it, I felt much better for asking the questions, sometimes our opinion of what people think isn't what they actually think.

I wasn't doing research and collecting data for any project I was finding out what real people think of us, that's the only way we are going to progress the more we do it the better it becomes for us.

[ChristinaK]

Hi Teresa,

I've followed your trials and tribulations for a while. Your situation was very similar to mine and I'm very happy you and your wife didn't divorce and have an understanding you can both live with.

Thanks for your research. I do think ones opinion is considerably molded by location, experience, education and social conservatism. I have lived in Europe twice and have talked with many from different countries. IMO, Europeans tend to be much more liberal and open in their thinking than Americans, so they, in general, may not be so hard wired into making assumptions about CDers.

That being said, I know there are some serious redneck, opiniated people there as well.

In America, old movies stereotypically showed gays as being effeminate or CD. So, I think it's natural for people, particularly men, to assume we are gay. After all, women like men. If you want to be a woman, then you must like men too. Natural assumption there. On these shows that have TGs on them, are they shown as gay, or are they illucidating the fact that most of us are hetero?

Lastly, in today's world, with so much acceptance of gays, does it really matter, except to one's SO?

[Teresa]

Christina,
Taking the comment from your last line was a thought for another thread , the point is it shouldn't matter but there aspects that cause some concern.

Talking about media representation they have a lot to answer for. It would be great to see a plot that showed Cders as we truly are, to most revealing us is something terrible that shocks the neighbourhood , they need to change that to portray us as normal human beings but with a need to dress to fulfill a need not to try and shock people.

[ReineD]

Speaking to Christina's point, admittedly I live in North America and so I only have a sense of general attitudes here and not in Europe. It may well be that Brits and Europeans don't automatically assume that most CDers are gay (if they don't know any). But, this is not always the case here. Also, I'm sure not everyone here assumes this, but it is apparent from reading member posts that a great many of their wives do wonder, and therefore ask if their husbands are attracted to men when the wives first find out, just like your wife Teresa.

[Rhonda Jean]

I think when you ask the question, many people would immediately try to intellectualize their answer. I'd be shocked if almost everybody's gut response is that cders are gay.

About years ago I frequently went to one Merle Norman store far all my makeup. The first time I went there I just felt really comfortable with the lady who owned it, and it became one of my regular stops. I went there every time after I had my hair done, and sometimes just to stop in and buy a little something just as an excuse to visit with her. I always wore my male wedding ring, and never intentionally hid anything about my then married/straight life. At least a couple of years into this I mentioned something about my wife (I can't imagine I hadn't done that at some earlier time). She said, "What? You're married? To a woman? How does that work?" I was a bit surprised, but I shouldn't have been.

Up until then I'd been young enough and (at least considered myself to be) passable enough that I just assumed people thought I was a woman. Gay didn't enter into it. Since then, though, without exception, everyone who I've known well enough to even have this kind of discussion has assumed I like men.

[Teresa]

It's becoming clearer that location does appear to make a difference, more than I expected. I would have considered where I live to be a very conservative area and attitudes to Cding would be neutral to anti .
I mentioned media earlier playing a part and could do better but the Neighbours soap drama on BBC tv may have helped because it had a CDing story line I didn't follow it completely but the character was married and just wanted to be out but wasn't portrayed as gay as far as I know. Maybe someone who did follow the story line could put me right on that point. It does have a high viewing figure, I find the story lines too depressing but maybe I should thank them if they dispelled some of the myths.

Reine ,
I do agree that the gay question is one our wives/partners do have concerns about , I'm not sure where the thinking did originate, whether it's a natural thought or it's something started by the media . The other point is many members talk about using gay bars in the US as a safe haven for Cders it's something many of us in the UK don't do, maybe there are more social support groups, I personally wouldn't go to a gay club if I couldn't find a social group, my wife would be pretty well upset if I did .

[DIANEF]

Teresa, I normally hate Eastenders with a passion, but that has been running a CD storyline which obviously arroused my interest. The character in question has been discovered by his partner but is not gay, and as far as I know is resolving his issues with his partner. However I also watched 'Accused- Traceys Story' starring Sean Bean, about a gay Cder, (excellent BTW). So, both gay and straight cross-dressers portrayed in the Uk media recently. My SO has seen both but has never assumed CDers are automatically gay.