Have You Ever Been Challenged in Public?

[IleneD]

I have a week of "home alone" dressing coming up. I'm planning on a few places to go OUT. Don't know why the thought of going out and about dressed is so intriguing, but it is.

Let's assume you have a pretty good handle on your "look"; passing or near passing.
Has anyone ever approached you, in a store, shop, restaurant, bar etc., and asked The Question "Are you a woman or a man?" What happened then?
And has anyone actually hassled you (in public or in front of others) about dressing; maybe even threatened you?
I'm interested in what can or might happen engaged with The Public.
Talk to me girls.

[Sara Jessica]

Never has happened and I doubt it ever will.

[ellbee]

I've been called stuff before. Probably the worst of it for me, really. And that was years & years ago. Not always fun, but I've been thru worse *non*-dressing stuff before, and I still survived.


There have been times where I temporarily passed with hetero guys -- until they realize after a while that they've been checking out a dude. Then they don't seem too happy with that, and it's best to ignore it & walk away, if you can. Because if you handle it wrong, I can see how it could escalate into something more serious.

(And I understand some here believe it's impossible for someone to pass. I beg to differ. A lot depends on the situation. If a GG is 3 feet away from you, at high-noon, and they're carrying on a conversation with you? Probably not. But if a clueless, half-drunk, horny hetero male is like 10 feet away from you in a darker environment? I think one could have better chances with that one, IMO.)

[dolovewell]

Yes to both questions.

I've been asked if I was a woman or man at coffee shop I went to one night. But it was by a curious woman in her 30s and she actually was asking because she was impressed by my look. She said there was something "off" about me but overall she was surprised at how a man could make himself look so feminine. So it was frightening at first but I was able to relax once she began to get positive.

But hassled... yes. I've told the story a lot on here. Day after New Year's Day in 2015. JC Penney was having a big post New Year's Sale. The weather was bad so the store was nearly empty that Friday Night. I went in dressed, carried about my business, tried things on, bought some things, and left the store. Apart from maybe half a dozen customers in the store, there was a group of about 20 teenagers hanging out in the store. Why, I have no idea. This was not a JC Penney attached to a mall, so why they hung out in a stand alone store on a Friday Night I'll never know.

Anyway... as I was leaving most of the teenager group was at the bottom of the escalator I was on, waiting for the 3 or 4 teens in the group on the escalator going down behind me. So the teens at the bottom of the escalator got a good, long look at me. I knew what was coming, because no way could someone look at me this long and not make the connection. As soon as I got to the bottom, one guy in the group yells out really loud so the whole floor could hear "THATS A MAN!!!!!". I was shocked and humiliated so my reaction was to just get to the parking lot and my car as quickly as possible. I walked as fast as I could and the pack of teens followed me, with several of them asking if I was a man. Thankfully the store was empty so it was really only the employees who were there to witness this. They followed me all the way up to my car, where I got in, started up my car and slammed on the gas.

What a nightmare. I'll be the first to admit I got lazy that night with my makeup and styling my wig, so I wasn't looking my best. But still, it was mortifying.

That's really only been my bad public experience. The only other thing that was somewhat hurtful was when I walked into a Target one time, and this young couple, older teens, both saw me, looked at each other, looked back at me, then looked at each other and laughed. I turned around and walked out.

Really the only problem group is teenagers. Especially if they are in groups. They have no social filter and no manners, no way of keeping their mouths shut. They will humiliate others in order to boost their status within their own group. You can't avoid them, but you can decrease your likelihood of running into them(I.e. don't go to places they congregate in groups, like a mall or movie theatre on a Friday Night). If you see a group of teenagers do your best to try and avoid them.

[Rhonda Jean]

I've been complimented by women and approached by guys (rarely). In non-binary mode I was once asked if I preferred to be addressed as male or female. I've had a couple of scary encounters, but only a couple. There's little to worry about if you use common sense and choose appropriate venues.

[Phoebe Reece]

I was asked once, "Are you a man or a woman?" I smiled and replied, "Why yes I am." The person who asked me looked a bit perplexed until he figured it out and had a good laugh.

[Jodi]

Yes. Several years ago I was out and about and a youngish man came up to me with the "are you a man or a woman" question. My first answer was " Which one would you like me to be". This seemed to confuse him. I then told him that I was more man than he will ever be and I was more woman than he would ever get. I then walked away leaving him to stare at me.

jodi

[Julogden]

I don't think I've ever been asked if I was a man or woman, but that's because I don't generally pass, so people don't usually have to ask. I've been harassed though.

[Leslie Langford]

The 3 "worst" things that I have ever experienced upon being "read" were as follows:

- being "sir"-ed by a female SA one time when I was out shopping en femme and paying for a dress that I had just tried on in the ladies' fitting room. And you know what happened? Nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

I sincerely believe that no malice was intended here, nor was there a deliberate attempt at mis-gendering me by the SA. She seemed genuinely confused about which way to address me, tried to be professional and politically correct about it in her own way, and clearly hadn't had the ubiquitous sensitivity training that now seems to be de riguer when it comes to dealing with us transgender folk. Actually, the only bruising that occurred was to my ego, as I thought that I had done a particularly good job with my female presentation that day. Go figure! :eek: :doh:

- browsing amongst the racks in a shoe store and minding my own business when I noticed a 10-12 year-old girl surreptitiously checking me out from the other side of one of them and seeing her eyes get bigger and bigger as she began to connect the dots. She was with her mother, and I noticed soon afterwards a flurry of whispering taking place between the two, who were obviously discussing me and what to make of this vision. To her credit, Mom quickly shushed and shut down her demon seed, declined to make eye contact with me so as to avoid any awkwardness to all parties concerned, and we all continued to carry on business as usual after this brief encounter.

- one time in a women's restroom a young GG gave me the once-over as I approached the mirror to fix my make up and hair (wig), followed by a cheery "Hi!" My initial reaction was that she was just being super-friendly, but since that was a rather unusual occurrence from my past experience, it later dawned on me that maybe she had read me and tried to draw me out (male voice, perhaps?) to confirm her suspicions. I smiled back at her, replied in my best "femme" voice (never, ever, let them smell the fear ;) :heehee: ), and that seemed to settle that. She continued on with what she was doing - as did I - and no "incident" occurred as a result of this encounter.

On the plus side, I was walking down a downtown street one evening while wearing a particularly fetching outfit, and in the distance saw a group of men talking while loitering near a lamp post. As I approached closer, I noticed that they were actually standing across from a bar that they had obviously just ducked out of to have a smoke. Following my "don't let them smell the fear" credo here again, I boldly continued on and passed right in front of them (no pun intended - LOL). Of course, they all checked me out - the "click-clack" of stilettos on pavement will do that to a man ;). As I did this, one guy enthusiastically shouted out "Will you marry me?" as he looked me up and down with admiring eyes. I just smiled demurely, hoping with all my heart that this cat-call would not escalate into something more serious. Fortunately it didn't, and I took solace in the fact that alcohol was likely involved here, clouding both his perception of me as well as dampening any potentially more aggressive behavior. Still, a compliment is a compliment and clearly it was well-intentioned albeit somewhat misguided, but Hey! - I'll take it. :thumbsup: :heehee:

So, the moral of my "passing" story - at least from my experience so far - is that sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose, but I've never been "outed" nor treated with anything less than dignity and respect even when "read" by the muggles.

-

[Tracii G]

I have been asked which are you male or female and I have answered "both" but thanks for asking and turned away or walked off.
None have been in a derogatory manner just curious people I guess.
It kind of hurts when you think you have done a great job in your presentation.
I have had a few not so nice confrontations with young guys that think they have figured out something earth shattering that a guy would wear womens clothes.
The last time I relayed the event here but essentially a guy followed me out of a 7-11 store and grabbed my shoulder and tagged him in his nose hard enough to send him to the ground.
A person saw the incident and called the police. so the guy was embarrassed a gay guy cleaned his clock but he got arrested in the process for assault.
The police lady thought it was kind of funny but she said he got what was coming to him.
She never challenged the fact I was a crossdresser and it didn't matter to her.
Her partner said I did the right thing and he had watched the store security camera tape and was pretty impressed that this little "lady" dropped the brute with one punch.
The police man was very professional and he used the proper pronouns but the policewoman seemed a bit uncomfortable at first but she did a very good job.
Anyway I did file charges and the guy got 90 days in lock up and 1 year in the prison for violating his parole.

[Sara Jessica]

I think my reply deserves some clarification.

The original premise is rather specific, are you a man or a woman? It goes on to bring up harassment or threatening behavior. To these I stand by my answer, no. However, some are writing about simply being read for who/what we are and in that case...yes, it happens often enough...I dare to say regularly. But other than the occasional sir (like what part of my presentation compels you to call me sir?!?!) or snicker, I don't count positive engagements by those who see me for who/what I am as being negative encounters as suggested in the OP.

[sara.rafaela]

I have been out a lot, to New York, San Francisco, Las Vegas, San Diego, São Paulo. I can pass at a distance. I go out mostly at night, where the lighting is not so great and that seems to help. I go to shopping areas, restaurants, bars, and clubs. When I started I only went to places that were LGBT friendly. These days I will go anywhere. For the most part people tend to ignore me or do not notice. Once I heard a tourist exclaim, "hey, that's a guy". I thought nothing of it and moved on. Another time I was in a multi story shopping mall. There was a girl in a kiosk, by the stairs, selling some cosmetics. Every time I passed by she yelled for me. Annoying. Recently I went out to a new area for me, the North Beach of San Francisco. This area has a lot of bars and clubs, and seems to attract out of towners. I got a strange look from the bartender and some of the clients. The clients were in golf shirts and jeans, looked like the type that spent Sunday watching football and drinking beer, not the usual SF crowd for me. However, most, 99% of my experiences have been great. Many times people approach me and I get into some really nice conversations. I have started to become a regular at some places and people welcome my presence. I really like going out.

[IleneD]

Thanks for the story. Great stuff, and I'm glad you're safe at the end of the tale.
I find it disappointing that such things, as I imagined and you sadly endured, do indeed happen. It was kind of the point of my story.
I would hate to have a physical confrontation in heels. It would end badly for all.

Cool about the police lady, though

- - - Updated - - -

A great learning story, Sara. Thank you very much.
The take-away I get is that fools will still yell out or call you out. Amazing, but perhaps I shouldn't be amazed.
I'm thinking of taking in a late movie on the first night out (with a quick drink at the adjoining martini bar). Maybe a daytime shopping trip to Macy's, Dillards & Nordstrom. I'm thinking of taking up morning walks in femme.

But, in a way I'd be mortified to have someone give me such an ignorant shout-out. I shall endeavor to make this first trip into The World in another ZIP code.
Thanks.

[Nikki A.]

Never really had a problem being out and about. I know I've been read, either a long second look, a smile or giggle. Once I was walking into a diner and an older gent held the door for me and when I thanked him he said you're welcome sir. I laughed to myself but was also a bit disappointed in that I thought I looked especially good that day, Oh well

[Jesse Six]

Most of the time, people don't challenge you, because most people are conflict-averse. It's like your parents used to say "They're more scared of you than you are of them!"

Typical stuff:
- People lock eyes with you as you're walking by. They notice, and their eyes get wide.
- A couple people nearby notice, and you see them turn to one another and whisper, then they do a 'double take' at you.
- You hear a couple people behind you gasp and get quiet. Then you hear them laugh. You look, and they're staring at you.
- You're paying for something, and the sales person looks you in the face, their eyes get wide, and suddenly they're trying to look at anything but in your eyes. They're trying to look like they're not staring, but unfortunately they're really conspicuous about it. I just try to smile sweetly to cut through the awkward.

It's all pretty harmless, but it tests your confidence.


I remember being openly intimidated once:

I was walking home after a party, downtown, pretty late at night. I wasn't worried because it was a busy part of town.

Two quite drunk homeless guys (they could barely walk and were pushing a shopping cart) stopped me on a street corner. One of them proceeds to tell me a joke:
"Hey, why don't men go into the women's bathroom?... Because it says 'Whoa - man'!"
Then he gave me a squinty-eyed sneer. The message was pretty clear.

All along, his friend keeps staring at me with a really intense smile on his face (google "Kubrick stare"). It sent shivers down my spine.

I just said something like "That's nice... I gotta go" and walked off.

[dolovewell]

(And I understand some here believe it's impossible for someone to pass. I beg to differ. A lot depends on the situation. If a GG is 3 feet away from you, at high-noon, and they're carrying on a conversation with you? Probably not. But if a clueless, half-drunk, horny hetero male is like 10 feet away from you in a darker environment? I think one could have better chances with that one, IMO.)

Id rather jump off the Space Needle than put myself in an environment where i was dressed in the presence of half drunk horny men

[Valery L]

When I was young and I had long hair (I let it grow again but it is not as long as I had it) there were some times in which I was addressed as a woman even when I was not crossdressed, at that time I was strictly a closeted crossdresser. In one of those occasions, I was at a very busy street market, and I was dressed with a rocker/gothic look so I had eyeliner and I was even wearing black lipstick. I was walking with my girlfriend (now ex) and one girl passed net to us and said loudly, is that a man or a woman?!, I did not care, actually since I was in guy mode I took it as a compliment besides their intentions were obviously bad.

Before I started going out dressed in a regular basis, I sometimes grabbed some of my mother's stuff and dressed partially just to drive dressed like that and in some occasions to go to some places that I thought were empty to take a walk. I don't want to give many details but yeah, some people saw me dressed while driving or while walking. I was not completely dressed so it was pretty obvious that I was not a woman. I never received a bad comment but I received horrible stares and was really ashamed.

The first time that I went out fully dressed was to a metal concert in other city, it was awesome and I was not alone, actually a female friend who knew about my crossdressing gave me the idea and was my companion. During the concert, nothing happened, I am sure that I was unnoticed. However, when the concert "finished", there was a pause that lasted for about 10 minutes until the band came back to play a couple of additional songs. In that time, a girl who was next to us, noticed me. She did not say anything but she was looking at me completely surprised and I think also disgusted, but nothing happened.

When going out became a regular activity for me (it started like 6 months ago), the first two or three times I did it without a wig, my hair was short, and my makeup skills sucked. So it was obvious that I was a guy in a dress. Besides some surprised looks when some people saw me. Nothing happened, most of the people simply did not care, even when my appearance was clearly the one of a guy wearing women's clothes, I was never challenged. My makeup skills improved significantly after a couple of weeks and I finally purchased a wig. Since then, I think I became more and more passable. When sales people refer to me, they always do it using feminine nouns, with the exception of a specific person in one store, he calls me sir. I don't know if there is a mean purpose behind it but I do not care, and personally I do not think so because he always treats me well besides that.

Some men have approached me and had tried to hit on me, and no one has said anything about my gender, with the exception of the guy who wanted to take me to a motel to rape me last Sunday, which I am not sure if immediately noticed my gender, or if he did it after talking to me and after I told him that I had a girlfriend and I was not interested in men. Occasionally, some women give me long looks but most of them simply smile at me after I smile at them, I really like when girls look at me. Only three times I was sure that I was clocked. One of them was when I began to use a wig and began to improve in my appearance. It was late at night and I took the bus to my apartment, but that is the bus that the students normally use to go to the bars and return home. The bus was almost empty, excepting a group of two guys and one girl, they sat next to me and after some time, the girl which was completely drunk started to look at me, it lasted for five minutes. I just tried to ignore her. After that she talked in "secret" to her two friends and obviously told them about what she found. They quickly looked at me and then looked to each other and smiled. It was not a good experience, but again, I was not confronted and nothing happened. Actually I liked the fact that the girl did not clocked me immediately, and her two friends would never locked me by themselves. Also she was drunk, so her "hostile" reaction probably was motivated by the effect of alcohol, and finally, that was my first wig, it is a short one that does not fit me as good as the one that I use now, so maybe with my current wig, that event would never happen. The second time was one time that I was walking in the mall, a couple of middle age women passed next to me and began to look surprised at me, they talked to each other and looked at me again. However, I am not sure if the reason of that was because, I had an erection at that moment (yeah, sometimes I become too excited when dressed), and since I cannot tuck (I have a hydrocele) it is sometimes hard for me to hide my male things, so maybe it became noticeable enough when I walked next to them. Finally, the last time that something like that happened to me was in the church, I attended mass, and a young girl with her mother were sitting at a neighboring bench. I saw them looking at me smiling and then talking between them. It happened once during the whole ceremony, and I actually feel flattered since I like when women look at me, again, besides that, nothing happened. Sorry for the long post.

[Kate Simmons]

Can't say as I ever have been. Guess I'm not interesting enough. :)

[Tracii G]

Valery people that love metal music are some of the nicest people at concerts.
I have been to literally 100's of shows and have seen CDer's in the crowd and never have I seen any problems.
Its about the music and they don't care what you dress like. If you are into metal you are family.

[ellbee]

Id rather jump off the Space Needle than put myself in an environment where i was dressed in the presence of half drunk horny men

That's why I used to go clubbing always with a mixed group of several friends (males presenting as guys, GG's, TG's, etc.)

I also used to try to make it a point to sit next to one of my guy-friends.


Strange men are usually a bit intimidated approaching someone in that kind of situation.

Didn't always work (e.g., still got hit on in hetero bars sometimes), but overall it definitely helped protect me. :)

[I Am Paula]

Maybe a couple of long looks, but never a word said. Granted, I stay out of North Carolina.

[Allisa]

As anyone who has been here for awhile can tell you I've had my fair share of encounters, too many to list here, from loud obnoxious ones to kindly asking if I was transitioning. I don't go to venues where alcohol is being consumed in large quantities so I don't put myself in certain situations for other reasons than being outed or possibly harmed in any way. Funny how the gamut runs from the quite young to the elderly and is mostly female but some males usually in the company of their SO. Generally my outings are event free, yes there are the stares, the whispers and the moving away as if they could catch something but I take it all in stride and enjoy myself. I know when I leave the house that at a distance I may look the part but upon closer inspection there is no denying my physical gender although I try like heck to disguise it. Now all of this happens when I'm dressed to my full femme expression, but if in my more androgynous, feminine male form of dressing things are definitely different. Almost forgot about the flirtation event with a very nice gentleman, only one so far, but very strange for me.

[dolovewell]

Typical stuff:
- People lock eyes with you as you're walking by. They notice, and their eyes get wide.
- A couple people nearby notice, and you see them turn to one another and whisper, then they do a 'double take' at you.
- You hear a couple people behind you gasp and get quiet. Then you hear them laugh. You look, and they're staring at you.
- You're paying for something, and the sales person looks you in the face, their eyes get wide, and suddenly they're trying to look at anything but in your eyes. They're trying to look like they're not staring, but unfortunately they're really conspicuous about it. I just try to smile sweetly to cut through the awkward.


I can handle all of those easily except the last one. The first 3, are frequent and you become desensitized to them.

But the last one I always have a hard time with. I'd say half the time, the SAs and cashiers are friendly and not uncomfortable.

But the other half I feel like the SA or cashier, based on her body language, appears as if I am holding her at gunpoint and forcing her to empty the register. Where she is so uncomfortable she is stiff, tense, perhaps even slightly trembling, and doing all she can not to make eye contact with you, trying to go as fast as possible so she can get out of your sight. I always feel like a piece of garbage when this happens.

[Jenniferathome]

Ilene, I have been out many times. I do not pass for a genetic woman. No one has ever challenged me or said anything negative, ever. I am sure it will happen sometime, but I think there is a freedom in knowing that I am not fooling anyone. I am not glaring when I go out and always dress for my age, time, location and event. I am convinced that what makes for a positive experience is YOUR confidence that you belong.

Don't worry about the normals, they will notice you and they really do not care.

[michelleddg]

My favorite challenge was a few years back at the Fashion Mall in Las Vegas. A smart guy at a kiosk said "excuse me, sir!" as I walked by obviously hoping for a reaction. Amazing I walked by without instinctively reacting. Yay me! These guys are obviously used to seeing us at the mall, can pick us a mile away and are bored out of their skulls. After my initial shock I was mostly just amused. Hugs, Michelle

[Cheryl T]

No, I've never been approached and asked a question like that.
People have a lot of nerve if they are either in a crowd or secure in their car, but on a face-to-face basis they will mutter to themselves, but rarely confront you.
The exception to this of course is kids. They have no qualms about it at all and young girls seem to have the most Chutzbah.

[Heidi Stevens]

I've had two times I would consider a "challenge" to my appearance. The first time was in a mall a couple of years ago, a group of preteen boys asked me if I was a man. I ignored them and walked on. At the time I don't blame them, I had a beard shadow that would shame Fred Flintstone. It was late in my day and I saw it was becoming obvious thru the makeup.
Removing my beard didn't stop the second challenge. I was in a bakery on morning and my voice would just not get into a higher range. The teenage girl behind the counter figured me out and would loudly say 'sir' every chance she could. Luckily her boss saw the treatment I was getting and took action. I thanked the boss and walked on.

[Jillian Faith]

Never been asked the "are you a man or women" question. I have had the long scanning head to foot look from other women both younger (30ish) to older (late 50s to early 60s). I try to blend but far from 100% passable. Knock on wood I've never had a bad experience beyond to long probably knowing looks.

[IleneD]

Jennifer,
I like that. "... there's a freedom in knowing I'm not fooling anyone." It sounds a lot like sheer Audacity. Love it.

Trust me, me too [not fooling anyone]. The one time I went on a "go out" adventure, ever and only, I didn't wear my wig or makeup (except lipstick).. I wore a headscarf (dress & heels). Sat down at a sidewalk cafe and had dinner but I was alone and the cafe and street mostly abandoned. My waitress was a saint.

I'm going on an experimental expedition in full dress. Going to do it safely and wisely. Your experience and information helps. Thanks. (Love your signature article link).

[Stephanie47]

Decades ago on a Halloween night I dolled myself up in a black dress, hosiery, heels, wig and makeup with all the proper undergarments. I went into a Safeway and bought a bottle of Coke. A guy, who was buying beer and probably had too much to drink already, did some finger pointing and laughing. It was bothersome but I was not fearful. I figured if anything who ever saw me figured it was Halloween....."Oh well." The checker did not say anything at all. Another Halloween I tested the waters again at a Winchell's donut store and got a compliment. Since then I found I rather take strolls in the early evening in safe neighborhoods and forego any interaction with the public.

[~Joanne~]

When i go out dressed, I usually try to go to some place I feel is secluded enough that I can avoid any encounters and just relax and enjoy the feeling of being out dressed for whatever period of time I am out there. usually i go to a park of some sort. The only encounter that I have ever had (other than the time I was pulled over but that's another post elsewhere) was a guy on a bike passing by us (my SO was with me) and saying 'good morning". no harm no foul obviously.

I am hoping to push things a bit further this year and had thought about trying to go to a mall due to the fact that halloween is on a monday and this mall is mostly deserted though showing signs of coming back to life. After reading this thread though I might scratch that idea off of my list because going out enfemme is about me exploring the world a bit dressed as a world and mostly relaxing. dealing with this sort of stuff really makes me rethink plans.

[ellbee]

Don't worry about the normals, they will notice you and they really do not care.

Could you explain to us, then, why all the negative hate-filled comments from readers of online mainstream news articles/stories on trans-people?


These people don't just exist in Internet-Land, you know... They are out & about with the rest of us, in everyday life.

[Majella St Gerard]

I have never really had a problem out dressed except for two times, men that were acquaintances AND claimed to be straight got a little too grabby when drunk and I had to forcefully set them straight. I have never been asked if I was a man or a woman, because I think it's very obvious I'm a man but I have been asked, nicely, many questions about my clothing choice. I have been sir'ed and ma'am'ed by a SA all in the same sentence, thought that was funny.

[reb.femme]

I've not had anything said, but last time out I caught a bit of a glare from a rough looking sort with his family, in the shopping centre. You can see the odd giggle between people, but that doesn't harm me. That's as bad as it has been and I hope remains. I'm happy in myself and I think that confidence washes over onto would-be detractors.

Typical Tracii stuff here and really gave me a giggle. A great way of putting over a serious subject but with the comedic edge. :heehee:


I have been asked which are you male or female and I have answered "both" but thanks for asking and turned away or walked off.


...so the guy was embarrassed a gay guy cleaned his clock...

Becky - south London's premier T...possibly.

[Jenniferathome]

Could you explain to us, then, why all the negative hate-filled comments from readers of online mainstream news articles/stories on trans-people?


These people don't just exist in Internet-Land, you know... They are out & about with the rest of us, in everyday life.

Laura, Firstly, it's easy to bitch online so to compare that to face to face interaction is lunacy. Consider this: on any given DAY that I am out, I am in view by a thousand people, maybe more. I interact with a dozen. In any given YEAR, how many of these hate filled internet memes appear? The volume of real interaction without incident to anonymous bitching is like the mass of Everest to a grain of sand. It's insignificant.

Just read the statements in this thread! Of the thousands of normals who were in play, a handful at best said something.

There are always extremes. There are those who hate black people with equal fervor. You can dwell on the negative and use that as a crutch or live in the real world and know that nowhere is nirvana but everywhere is open.

[AlyssaJ]

Jennifer, I would add, that not only does the internet exaggerate the voices of those on the fringe (extremes) it also provides an anonymous place where people more freely express their opinions. In public, I believe most people (other than teens and very young adults) tend to not voice negatives towards us simply because that type of behavior is not socially acceptable. Many are every bit as embarrassed to be in the situation as a first-time out CD might be. I also believe most people tend to be non-confrontational. It's easy to bash someone when they're not around or on an internet forum, but when you're face to face it takes a special level of boldness to insult someone or demean them publicly. It's kind of like road rage. How many people do you see flying completely off the handle in their cars? They feel safe in there, no one can touch them or often times hear them. So that act the fool and get very aggressive. Now put those same people face to face on the street with the person they just hollered at or tried to cut off and suddenly the interaction is far tamer.

Now I admit, all of this is just theory for me. My only experiences being out and about have been on Halloween. The one reaction that even mimics anything being discussed here was the first time my wife and I went out with another couple to a bar on Halloween. I was dressed fairly provocatively and there were a couple guys at the bar who were checking me out. When we left, we ended up walking right past them and one of them blurted out "Holy shit that's a guy!" I kept walking, actually feeling pretty good that I was convincing enough from far away that these guys didn't figure it out until I walked nearer to them. Still no negative issues as a result, they probably had to scramble to reassemble their own manhood at that point and were more worried about that than messing with me.

[Valery L]

People are cowards and hypocrites. I have seen a lot of hate against transpeople in Internet (and against many other people). However, in real life it really seems that nobody cares, the reason is that the people feels "safer" behind a computer screen so they can reveal more about themselves. Thus they can freely take aggressive postures in a virtual environment, when in real life they simply do not have the courage to reflect that. It is a good thing that people in real life is not as idiotic as they pretend to be in the Internet.

[sara.rafaela]

The teenage girl behind the counter figured me out and would loudly say 'sir' every chance she could.

I had a similar situation. I locked myself out of my car, cell phone included. I asked someone to loan me their phone and called AAA. When AAA arrived I was expecting a rough houser dude that would mock me. I felt fortunate when it was a late middle age Asian gentleman. However, he seemed to take pleasure in calling me by my full name, on the AAA card, every chance he could.

[CONSUELO]

Many years ago I was staying at the Philbeach in London. it is a hotel that is frequented by cross dressers and friends. In those days in had a bar in the basement, a Thai restaurant on the main floor and bedrooms above. I was in the bar and decided to go and change into leather fetish clothing. As I came downstairs I was in full view of the restaurant and a group of young women giggled. Not harmful of threatening and I was dressed in full fetish style, so i am sure I raised a few eyebrows.
Back at the bar it was all fun. Haven't been there for years. I hope it is still going strongly. Perhaps some of our London members can comment.

[aprilgirl]

To date, I’ve never had anyone flat out ask me if I was a man or a woman. I’ve never been hassled by anyone or threatened either. I am aware that if anyone gives me a second thought or glance, then they may indeed wonder or even know. I used to be more cognizant of lingering stares or being pointed out, and perhaps that still occurs. I’m just immune to that anymore. Any instance where I was interacting with someone, they absolutely know, but if it was uncomfortable with them, they didn’t show it.

[ellbee]

Laura, Firstly, it's easy to bitch online so to compare that to face to face interaction is lunacy. Consider this: on any given DAY that I am out, I am in view by a thousand people, maybe more. I interact with a dozen. In any given YEAR, how many of these hate filled internet memes appear? The volume of real interaction without incident to anonymous bitching is like the mass of Everest to a grain of sand. It's insignificant.

Just read the statements in this thread! Of the thousands of normals who were in play, a handful at best said something.

There are always extremes. There are those who hate black people with equal fervor. You can dwell on the negative and use that as a crutch or live in the real world and know that nowhere is nirvana but everywhere is open.


Yes, it is easy to bitch online. But does that mean these people don't actually hold these views in real-life, that it's just some act they're putting on? Bull. They *do* care -- stop pretending otherwise, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence out there. One could even argue that you're sounding like those who are in their own delusional fog, whom you apparently love to chide here from time to time. And yes, sometimes these are not anonymous internet comments -- unless you consider using their Facebook accounts to post them, as such?

Again, they *do* care.

Does that mean you'll hear about it to your face? Not typically. Believe it or not, there is actually some sort of semblance of law & society out there. But you aren't completely oblivious in your surroundings, either, I assume? Just because you don't hear it or see it at the time, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



The OP asked if anyone has ever been challenged/hassled/threatened. People are answering -- not simply "dwelling on the negative," but simply sharing some of their experiences, openly & honestly. Are some also holding back? Perhaps. I know I am, anyway, as to respect forum rules. And there's plenty enough that dictates that they are, indeed, sometimes on the receiving end of this kind of stuff. There's also plenty of the same elsewhere on this forum over the years. How is this some sort of crutch, again? :strugglin

And don't act like it's always entirely the CD'er's fault, as you've done elsewhere, that they simply weren't holding their head up high enough & their shoulders back as much as they could be. Please.



I'm happy you say it hasn't yet happened to you. But if & when does, that grain of sand may very well feel like Everest to you at that moment, and possibly even for a while afterwards.

You've heard of low-probability/high-impact occurrences, yes? Stuff can sometimes get a lot more serious than just some harmless name-calling or whatever. Just ask those who end up in the hospital -- or 6 feet under. But I guess you'll call that "insignificant," as well?


Anyway, enjoy your shopping trips to Nordstrom. ;)

[Alice_2014_B]

I've never been challenged at such.
I imagine there's people that saw me in public and questioned themselves, but hey, it is what it is.
:)

[IamWren]

I've only been out twice and I would hardly call it being out as I was away from my car for all of about five or ten minutes each time and not very far from it.
The first time was at a business area of office condominiums. I had put my makeup on in the car and tied a hijab around my neck and head, was covered with skinny jeans and long sleeve tunic type shirt. I was taking photos that I hoped to share here. I got honked at by a guy driving by but then a short few minutes later there was one guy who slowed down a lot and after passing me he turned around to get another look. Kinda freaked me out a little because I didn't know if I had been made or if he thought I really was a girl and he wanted to try something or if the hijab made him think to hurt me. Lucky for me I was inside a locked gated area and he kept on going down the road.

It happened again recently that I had a rare day off from work and again, makeup at the dashboard vanity. Being quite hot and humid here in southeast Texas, I opted for a pair short denim shorts, a cami and sandals. I got out to try some pics but I guess that outfit with a long wig and I don't know... I just felt like guys who were driving in the park "hovered" longer than would be normal. A couple of them drove by me two and three times despite me moving my car to another part of the park. Freaked me out.

I know it's not much and doesn't compare to others and what they've described but it was an unnerving feeling.

[AllieSF]

I have been going out since 2007, probably close to a thousand times, always interacting with complete strangers. I have never had a harsh comment made to my face, nor to my back as I walked by. I have heard a catcall a couple of times, whether because I was read as trans (maybe once) or just a woman passing by. I have been asked directly a few times if I was a real woman, or a man. Those questions came when I was interfacing with someone, which I do every time I am out, mostly strangers. I have also been doubted when I have told a rare few that I am not a GG, needing to show my drivers license as proof. All questions to me like that have been made in a civilized manner out of true curiosity. I personally love those questions because it gives me more incentive to talk with them.

Laura, Yes, shit can happen, in any mode. Just like riding an airplane, it can crash, but we still take one when we need to go long distances because we know the odds are way in our favor, while being in a car is actually more dangerous. When many of us recommend to hold your head high, act like you own the place, it is really just one other way to make it easier for all of us to go out and enjoy those special moments. If one walks around looking at he ground, behind their back or acting obviously nervous and uncomfortable where they are at, they will definitely attract more attention, attention that a lot here try to avoid. Do people talk behind our back? Of course they do, just as I may talk behind their backs if there is something about them that motivated me to make a comment or respond to a comment from whomever I am with. That is human nature, sometimes not at its finest.

It sounds like the OP is trying to get out more and has concerns. My recommendation is, if you want to go out, please do so. Pick your venue, your outfit and time of day that will make you most comfortable. Fear is understandable and can usually b e easily overcome, especially after a few times out. Always best to go with somebody who can help one's confidence when that confidence may be a little fragile. Good luck and enjoy.

[Alice Torn]

My second time out, a cop stopped me late at night, was concerned why i had been walking trough the town, when almost everything was closed, and that my driving was nervous. He said nothing about my crossdressing. The nest day, i went to several towns, cities, stopping to walk around, and a couple of rednecks yelled at me as they drove by. later that day, got laughed at a a drive up window, later that day, a man with his family had a dead car battery , and my car was parked right next to his, and he waited and waited for me to stop walking and come to my car, then asked if I would give him a jump start. i said yes, and he then told his kids to not look!! The first wig i ever had, which i wore those times, was too short, and not fitting well . Oh, and yet another thing that day, some teenage girl screamed, OMG , from about 100 feet behind me, as i walked down a sidewalk. No other incidents. I only go out up to six or 10 times a year, though. I opened up about m being a Cd to a few cashiers, and they had to look for a bit, before they realized it, at first. Did a good job that night. I also realize we live in a very stressed out, difficult world, and people are many on edge today, and anything to set them off, when they are given chance, just might let some of their frustration vent. It is not easy to survive today financially, socially, fine affordable housing, deal with wall to wall people everywhere in an over populated, dangerous society. We have to be cautious, yet confident, and expect a lot of people of all kinds of attitudes. Many are on the edge today/

[Kandi Robbins]

Has anyone questioned me? Yes, but I also know I am fooling no one. I am very open to anyone who wants to have a discussion about me.

Hassled me? Never, but I am also smart about where I go, but have been to hundreds of different places.

Threatened me? No.

[IleneD]

Allie,
I'm the original post. Love your spirit
Thanks. I am so there.

[Lorileah]

I then told him that I was more man than he will ever be and I was more woman than he would ever get.

I assume it wasn't a gay bar since you quoted a Broadway musical and he was confused (Rent, Angel's funeral)


To answer the OP. Yes I have been. Usually it is a younger person. The worst was in Oakland CA for my pre-op exam. A young woman, late teens at best, called out "Excuse me...are you a man or a woman?" I said "Yes". She asked again. I told her I was a woman. She answered in a crude way that she would still sleep with me. This was minutes after I had passed 3 people 2 women one jerk. The women smiled and walked by. The dipstick said "Have a good evening SIR" Also had two young couples earlier loudly voice their feelings on me. All this in an area Oakland likes to brag about being the tourist part of the bay. Maybe I was having a bad day

[IleneD]

Lori, and others along this thread;

When I read your story and others like it, I'm disappointed to find some suspicions true. Sad, and you handled it with grace and dignity, as have the many Sisters (below) who related similar narratives. Sorry you had to endure that.
Now for my mea culpa.
As a lad I was literally forced into rough play, sports. My parents knew I was a sissy. Looking back, they did all they could to suppress that natural state. I ended up hanging with the "jock crowd" much of the time; though I loved the arts, music and science. This was the mid-late 60s, so you can imagine the rough times GG's endured in terms of vulgarity, sexual assault, naming/shaming, etc. That was the same social crowd that called 'effeminate' boys the F-Word; much in fashion then to describe nearly any male defect.

I can't say I ever said anything ugly to girls or ever engaged in unwanted touching. Wasn't brought up to be that impolite. And the same for insults thrown at the "girly" boys and sissys, of whom I secretly was. BUT.... I stood by, using the pack as cover lest I reveal my own feminine side, and I said nothing. I let it go, acting like it was the thing to do.

I wish I'd had the moral courage the time to speak up, and stop the insults. I am sorry; sorry that people who are born to this - whatever THIS is for you - had to endure a life growing up with the cat calls and insults to your humanity. I'm sorry that by going along with the crowd, I was violating my own spirit.

I see so many beautiful faces and people on this forum. Those who were born near the male/female genetic margins, who grew up androgynous, my heart goes out to you for the anguish and bullying you likely endured. My attitudes changed greatly once I had a family and daughters; and I knew better than to be a fool. I also empathized with the very real lives of girls in ways I never understood before, and it informed my senses as to what it meant to be a woman; to have a connected female spirit within.

I tell you with all my heart, you are all beautiful and you're blessed.

Lori, and others who apparently seek to live their life full time as a woman, I not only get it. I applaud you. It takes guts, as you've described. I continue to marvel at the kind help and sound advice I have received via this forum. Thanks.

[StevieTV]

I was approached by a man while I was perusing the womens rack in a thrift store. He told me I'd never fit into to that. I looked him in the eye and said "I know, but a girl can look". He quickly walked away.

[Jessica86]

I was in a store by myself. I had two county looking big guys walk by me, and called me "queer." I don't care what people say, so I just carried on. A few minutes later, they come back by with a woman....I guess she was....and they laugh. They are probably in their forties.

They kept on for a bit until one said "What are you doin' tonight, faggot?" I turned to them, and in my best MAN voice, I said "Whichever one of yall who wants the time of your life!" They took off from there, and ran faster than I ever could in my shoes. Best part was I was in a jewelry section, and the SA there was laughing her butt off. She even told me I am a brave person, and how that could have been ugly. I told her look, I am a 6'06" man dressed as a woman, shopping for jewelry. If you can't have a little fun, what's the point? She was so nice. I thought it was hilarious.

[Tracii G]

Our own attitude when people ask questions or as some call "challenging" is a big thing.
Just be friendly and answer their questions and not act like its a big deal and it probably won't be a big deal.
No reason to get mad or be embarrassed and run off with your tail between your legs just be friendly and most people will be nice back.
Of course you might run across a douche nozzle like I did and have to deal with them harshly but thats pretty rare.

[IleneD]

Laura, darling.
A bold, brave post.
I absolutely love your courage.
Thank you.

[dolovewell]

After reading this thread, I think we need to realize, that even though many of us have been "challenged" in public, I think we can all agree that it is very rare.

I've probably been out in public 25 times or so dressed? And have encountered thousands of people. And yet, out of all those people, only a small group of teenagers said anything.

Don't be afraid to step out in public because there is a minute chance that someone will verbally say something negative about you.

[Teresa]

Ilene,
The manageress of the charity shop where I bought some heels from asked me to show a picture when I wore them to go out, I was wearing them with a full length ballgown. While she was looking at them an assistant from the back of the shop glanced over our shoulders, she didn't believe it was me in the picture then she added I wish I could look as good as that when I go out, we all had a good laugh over that one.

[Paulette]

I have been going out to main stream venues for many years and have not any negative reactions. I like many of the other ladies on this forum dress to blend. Wearing the same clothes as GG's are wearing for the venue or activity is the key to smooth sailing in the real world. Just as I posted on the clothing forum last night I went out to dinner and a movie with a GG friend of mine. My look was one of a career woman just getting off work and meeting a friend for dinner. I wore dress slacks, riffle blouse, pink jacket, and 3 inch black pumps. This outfit would fit in any professional setting so it worked perfectly. When I went shopping for this out fit I was wearing crop jeans, sandals (toenails painted) and a tunic top. I fit right in with the rest of the female shoppers. I have always been gendered properly for the way I am dressed and I always sport the best smile I have which I think is the key to my success. Head up chest out shoulders back relax your hips and plant a big smile on your face and look people in the eye when you meet them.

[dolovewell]

Paulette great advice there at the end, should be bolded, the smile part

When I am out, I never have my mouth closed. At the very least its open, and most of the time I am smiling. Having your mouth closed will square up your jaw more and emphasize it, not to mention make you look unhappy and/or nervous. Opening your mouth rounds out your jaw, slims your face and makes it longer. Smiling will soften and brighten up your face overall, give it a glow and will let others know you are not nervous at all and they are more likely to be comfortable around you should they read you male.

Don't shy away from eye contact, embrace it. Trying to avoid eye contact will make you come across as nervous.

[Lorileah]

3" heels are dressed to blend?

Yeah, as far as the "blend" thing, sorta like people who wear camouflage in the woods. People not looking to see them, won't. Those who are looking pick them out. So just "blending" won't save you. Common thought here is that you get "made" a lot more than you think. I agree, it's just that people have their own agenda and you aren't part of it. There was mention of pack mentality. That's where we fail. Once someone targets you, the rest of their group will circle.

A few things I have learned in...7 years here. One, macho in a dress won't save you. 6' tall just makes you a bigger target. Being 6' in a dress alone, makes you and easy big target, especially for groups. Challenging people in that situation can easily turn bad...for you. Those Bruce Lee scenes of him fighting of 5 others...well that's Bruce Lee. Once they have you in a compromising position, you're toast. Short, non-confrontational answers, if you feel you need to answer at all. Yes, No, maybe...then walk away...and as a veterinarian let me add...never turn your back if you feel threatened, walk so you can see at least with peripheral vision. Some quips are funny "I am more of a man than you will ever be..." is a challenge and some will take that as such. Questioning another person's sexuality, especially one who is insecure, will get you attacked. And remember, you are dressed as a woman...that attack may not stop with punches and kicks.
"Whichever one of yall who wants the time of your life!" is asking for trouble. Oh and that trouble may not come at the jewelry counter at that moment...but there is a big parking lot or garage you need to navigate.

I don't think many here have been scared for their lives. It is in reality a safe world...usually. But there are those who still see "us" as less than human or as targets. I used to say "Hey I'm 6 feet tall and 185 pounds...who's gonna mess with me?" Probably someone who is 6'6" and 240 and has a major chip on their shoulder you just tried to knock off. Careful and smart beats bold and brassy everyday. Walk away and keep it to yourself. In my story above, I went to my hotel, locked the door and held my breath. There were a dozen young people gathered...they saw me alone...they knew I was in that hotel (that had open doors at that time of day). Nothing happened but it was possible and a 60 year old person, male or female, stands little chance against 6 teenage men who have something to prove.

[dolovewell]

Lorileah, that's a scary post, but its accurate. It's why I don't get why so many here are so eager to go out dressed in risky places. There is a reason I generally stick to malls, stores, coffee shops, restaurants, and safer places when I go out dressed and avoid places like bars, clubs, casinos and walking the streets of downtown. It doesn't matter where you live either - people think living in large LGBT places like San Francisco will automatically mean you are safe, you aren't. A progressive city won't save you. I live in Portland and have offices in Seattle and I still wouldn't feel safe going out dressed downtown on a Friday Night in either city. Your stereotypical macho frat boy jock type who is more likely to cause you serious trouble will exist in every city and will frequent every bar and club. I know because in male mode, people consider me to be a stereotypical macho frat boy jock type.

I also agree with Lorileah about trading barbs with people who give you a hard time. Just ignore them. The one time I got humiliated, it was a group of about 20 hoodlum teenagers. What if I had engaged with them instead? They didn't look like honor roll students and if they decided to fight back it would have been 20 on 1 with only a handful of employees who could have intervened. If they didn't fight, what if they had family members who were in gangs or something? It's not worth it. Yeah, I could have said something in the safety of JC Penney, but like Lorileah said, there is a parking lot and you still have to get to your car.

Lastly, I agree that 3 inch heels are not a good shoe to wear for blending purposes, unless you are going out to some kind of nightlife. I am already 6 feet tall so I don't need any extra height. I wear 2 inch heels, max, occassionally and even then I think thats going a bit too far when it comes to going to a place like a grocery store.

[Jessica86]

See I think you are right for prevention Lorileah and Dolove. What about when it happens? I would rather draw attention to myself as I did in that situation above. A man in a dress about to get into a fight? There will be a dozen iphones out for videos. My scenario happened in daylight....close to a SA who was helping me. There were others there too. Im 6 06 so Im a big target? Yeah I am! A big target of attention if I need it! Thats how you ensure your safety. Get as much attention as you can. Engaging 20 "hoodlums"? Come on. Is anyone that dumb? Would you engage them as a guy? But why were you there? Sounds like the wrong side of town to me. Take the long way around.

I dont want guests reading your posts and gathering a notion of the world is out to get you because you dress in public. That is not true. I have had many encounters turn violent as a man. Not one as Jessica has been bad. Just use common sense. Have you ever seen a gg split a group of 20 hoodlums? No. They walk around. You dress like thrm why not think like them? Be observant. Dont believe people are hunting you down in the PL of a mall during the day. I will stand my ground and get attention. I say this because I dont walk past groups of men. Even in the mall I will just take the closest crossover if I see a bunch coming. Common sense girls.

[Lorileah]

And common sense says...walk away or don't respond. Make yourself safe first

In my case, "why" was I there (I was trying not to disparage Oakland any more than needed but...) I was at a hotel, in Jack London Square, a jewel in Oakland's crown for tourist areas. It was still light out. I was 100 feet from my hotel (which claims to be high class). I walked to the ferry dock and back. The encounter happened next to the hotel's patio. Go around You also don't know Dolove's situation. 20 teens can and DO hang out in places you should feel secure (let me rap Denver for a minute...16th street mall). Common sense. An acquaintance was attacked and beaten on one of Denver's main drags...no one saw it (or saw who broke into my car under a street lamp on that same street). Go around...even suburbia has groups of bored teens. You say if you see them coming. One of our members here was attacked not so long ago. She didn't see it coming. In daylight. In public. (you can search and find her post) You never see it coming. Talk to the women who have been attacked, in parking garages, in broad daylight. You don't walk past groups of men, I'll assume you don't live in an urban setting. Then again, going around is great for the legs. Are people hunting you down? Depends where you live (refer to Boys Don't Cry). Here in Denver...not likely. Other parts of the US, very much so. Every woman learns to be aware. People here in some cases didn't get that memo and they think a sarcastic remark is a good defense. Specifically, what you said, could have been taken as an insult to those "country boys". All the iPhones in the world wouldn't have stopped that sucker punch...nor the SA. The correct move for that SA would have been to call management, but she laughed with you. Also, I see you're in Texas, wanna see how protected you are? "The state's hate crime law only includes sexual orientation, not gender identity. That means, according to state law, violence that targets transgender people because they are transgender is not a hate crime. " But then, you did intimate you were gay.

I can promise you that had anything happened in my case, it is unlikely anyone would have stepped in. What is common sense? Don't say something that will rile the bull

[Jessica86]

The word used was hoodlums. Quoted. 20 hoodlums. I dont see hoodlums at the mall in a pack of 20. I dont see males in a pack of 20 either...lol. I see kids in a pack of twenty at the Gamestop. Couples in packs of 20 at the food court. No hoodlums...as they were called. I will walk around a group if ten or so guys with foul mouths pants saggin covered in tats. I think every other woman would too. Maybe thats why my legs are killer?
To speak about your common sense post....so common sense says let history repeat itself? A second pass....and you say walk? Wow. They came BACK for me. What part of that do you not get? Im not saying do what I do because its foolproof. No. In that instance it was an attention getter and worked quite well. If people are following you harassing you PLEASE get some attention fast. The last thing you should do is walk to your car.....a tool they can use to relocate you!
So walk and let them follow you outside with less witnesses and easy to force you into a car to be violated or worse....is your solution. Even worse there is no surveilance so you have to describe specifically what happened...recalling every horrific detail. Ehhh...I will gladly take that sucker punch over the other options. Wouldnt be the first and wont be last.
See how protected I am? Hate crime? Wont get into what a useless law that is because of technicalities in the verbage making it an almost never filed case because of difficulty of prosecution. Thats why we do not have it yet. Its coming but different versions were shot down because of verbage issues seen by other states. The best offense is a good defense. Well that works the other way too.
Im trying to figure out how you are helping people stay safe by telling them walk away from every situation? It makes things more dangerous to me. There is a time to walk. I have done that many times. In a case where they are persistent like I stated I believe you get attention. A lot of it. Quick. Then again I might be alone in this belief. Again I have never had a bad experience as Jessica either. I have to agree to disagree with you that walking is the be all end all solution you present it to be.

[donnalee]

I'm afraid you're misquoting George Washington who said "The best defense is a good offense."

As to Lorileah's complaint about Oakland and as one who has lived there nearly 50 years, you have to be able to read the street before you get yourself in trouble, as you obviously did. A little research would have told you that Oakland has been in the top 10 per-capita murders for the past few decades; it is not a place for foolish mistakes and you're lucky you're still alive to complain about it. I am pretty safe because I take proper precautions and know what to watch out for, but when you don't it will cost you. This applies to any urban environment.

[Rogina B]

Id rather jump off the Space Needle than put myself in an environment where i was dressed in the presence of half drunk horny men

Most people behave in a tolerable and predictable manner. Gives you insight as to why most [other than cage fighters and martial artists lol] genetic women never put themselves into those situations...alone.

[ellbee]

I get what some are saying, but here's the thing...


We are *not* GG's!


For the most part, most of us most of the time who experience this kind of stuff isn't because we were thought to be GG's the whole time -- but males presenting as such.

*That's* why we were targeted in those situations.

And the motive & behavior of the other party reflects that, which differs on a number of levels compared to what a GG might experience.

[Jessica86]

I'm afraid you're misquoting George Washington who said "The best defense is a good offense."
.

.....:facepalm:....

[Rogina B]

laurababe... Happy to take you out and teach away your fears of existing in the mainstream world... It really isn't scary !

[Georgette_USA]

I have not been challenged since my first going out some 40 years ago.

After my SRS and going out with men, some things are always in your mind. Some men don't like being told NO. After some years I was worried that someday someone would have questions. TS was rare in those days, but that was NO guarantee of safety.

But that is not to say that being a woman out and alone is not to be safe either. Women do get harassed and assaulted and raped and even killed sometimes.

One should always be aware of their surroundings and situations.

[Luci]

Awesome answer Phoebe Reece

[Jesse Six]

Lorileah, yes! You have a very real attitude about it, and I'm also mindful of antagonizing men.
Not scared to live my life, just deliberate about how I act. If a guy is making a comment, my 'go-to' response is a raised eyebrow and a bored stare, not a scathing comeback that would publicly humiliate him.

A challenge from us (perceived to be weak men) is much more humiliating than a challenge from a regular man. If you challenge a guy in drab mode, he might choose to say "whatever". If you challenge him in girl mode, it's a dagger to the heart of his masculinity.

Oh and y'all know how boys are taught that it's "not nice to hit girls"? Those protections don't apply when it comes to us. I don't feel like my dress and makeup is of any use against a guy that I just emasculated in front of his friends. Hell, even if I had SRS, it would be the same.

[ellbee]

laurababe... Happy to take you out and teach away your fears of existing in the mainstream world... It really isn't scary !

Thanks for the offer, but I've already been out there for a good 20 years now -- and counting.


No fear. Just being honest & realistic. :)

[Rogina B]

Laurababe,I would have not expected you to support the "angry mobs with torches and forks" mentality !

[Beverley Sims]

I had the reverse going into s a shop that I regularly patronised as a man, buying womens dresses etc.

When I went in as a woman I had to prompt her as to who I was, this was done by recalling recent discussions with her and in the end deliberately lowering my voice.

What I find unnervingly strange in these circumstances is the establishment of your true identity.

I was chuffed on this occasion as she did not see me as a man in a skirt until I had established my identity.

To answer the question.... NO

Just avoid teenage girls in the mall after school.

[CD Tammy]

Many years ago, I encountered a CD at an event. It was absolutely the first time that I had ever seen someone dressed. I badly wanted to talk to her for a few minutes and tell her that I was wearing pantyhose under my suit. But I lacked the nerve.

[ellbee]

Laurababe,I would have not expected you to support the "angry mobs with torches and forks" mentality !

So, if someone either experiences something themselves, or reads about even just one person who has had a less than 100%-positive experience, and they acknowledge that simple & very real fact, all of a sudden they're labelled as that?

Wow.


So where does this extreme dichotomous way of thinking come from, that I see here sometimes? :strugglin


Kinda reminds me of the "dressing-up-on-Halloween-for-the-first-time-in-public" threads. :laughing:

[Lorileah]

I agree with Laura. It isn't a pitchfork mentality. It is a be safe and aware mentality. I am out in the world every day. 99.9% of the time NOTHING happens. But to say "Hey go out, no one cares and will never bother you." is wrong. I have been out well over 2 years now as 24/7. I can remember two episodes. I know many TG people. One was beaten severely in a place that was considered "safe". That is a wake up call. I don't think anyone here said every time you go out people will question you. First it isn't polite. Second you aren't important to them. Until for some reason you interfere with their agenda. Transphobia and homophobia are still firmly entrenched in many locales. "We" are something to fear because we are something they don't understand or they have been taught that we are less than. So how do they react to fear. By acting out. It's power. While I rarely get verbal (and so far no physical) threats, I can read other reactions on a more frequent basis. I see parents pull their child away from where I am, I have had both sexes intentionally force me to walk around. I have seen people stare. I have had my share of being called names as they walk by.

On the other hand I have had far more compliments and smiles. They outweigh the bad experiences. I have also had people OVER compensate to try and be nice.

All the kind remarks and the apparent not being noticed are great. But it takes just ONE confrontation to hurt you. One person who disagrees with how you live and who thinks violence (verbal or physical) is the way they can respond to you. When you respond in kind the situation can escalate into a situation where someone gets hurt. No we aren't GGs but we are at risk. GGs learn to mitigate risk.

[ellbee]

Summed up nicely, Lorileah. :)


I will add that obviously this shouldn't stop anyone from going out in public, should they want to. Just that if they do, that yes, there's always a possibility of something not-so-positive happening, which can really run the gamut, depending on all kinds of variables -- simply *because* of how we're presenting (and not some sort of random accident).



Oh, and this: "...I have had both sexes intentionally force me to walk around."

Eh, I've had that happen to me plenty of times while in 100% guy-mode. IOW, some people are just rude/obnoxious/too self-important when it comes to that, regardless of who the other party may be.

[Rogina B]

Like Lorileah..My opinion comes from being out everyday as well. Male or female or trans..we have to be sensible and aware.

[dolovewell]

Transphobia will exist everywhere. I live in Portland and we have people who move here from other parts of the country, or to Seattle, because its more pro-LGBT and progressive.

The problem is that they think this area of the country is completely devoid of any transphobia or transphobic persons and everything will be unicorns and rainbows here. Nope. There are just as many transphobic people here as there are anywhere else.

This city may be more pro-LGBT but thats really only based on legislation and there are more support groups around here. It's not more pro-LGBT in terms of people's attitudes.

Moral of the story: Geography doesn't matter. Don't move somewhere or avoid somewhere because you think the populace will be more or less friendly.

[Tracii G]

I live in Central Kentucky and people in general are nice and don't get "in your business".
Sure I have been called names and gotten looks but that doesn't bother me all that much.
I'm out as TG and gay and once in a blue moon I will get a smart ass act out but I stand my ground and do a mental tap dance with them.
Mostly to show how stupid they are acting in front of people. The reason for that is so I have witnesses if something happens.
Like I said I have been in a few fights with homophobes but I am not afraid and have the skills to defend myself.

[dolovewell]

The only time I have been "challenged" in public was in Madison, WI. That's where the group of teenagers humiliated me. Doesn't get more progressive than Madison.

[Tracy Irving]

I don't live far from Madison and have often thought about spending some time there dressed. The running joke is that Madison is 40 square miles surrounded by reality. Time to rethink that area of Wisconsin.

[IleneD]

Wow. Some of the responses have given me cause to rethink my field trip.

I'm a large and strong human specimen. I'm not worried about that. I suppose I don't mind having a laugh along WITH someone in public about it.
I knew The World was an ugly place. I've traveled on nearly every continent except Antarctica, and been to some grim place where the normal rules of humanity don't apply. But I didn't know it was this bad in my America; not in this day and age. I absolutely hate for things like that to happen to everyone on here who shared a story about being 'called out".

I can slip in and out of guy mode/girl mode on demand. I do either one very well. I'm loving my girl mode more and more these days. But the fact is, because of my build I pass for a guy without question and can assume that role.
The girls who are earning my heart are those who NEED THIS crossdressing; even the point of assuming their female identity outwardly and full time. In some cases it appears that living in femme is a safer choice than living as a pretty male, (despite the threats either way.) You need this choice to crossdress and assume the full time identity of the real you. And that is a much different thing; requiring great courage. Be strong. I am with you all; everyone who lives out their feminine identity.

[CherylFlint]

When I first started going out it happened a few times, and that’s because I stuck-out like a sore thumb.
Since then I’ve learned to BLEND and haven’t had any problems.
I’ve found that ATTITUDE is very important. Act like you belong in the lingerie section.
But, above all, stay safe.
I used to go out at night but for the last ten years I seldom go out at night.
Stay safe and have fun.

[dolovewell]

Ilene its really not that bad. While many of us have stories of bad experiences, we can all agree they are rare.

With that being said I do think some crossdressers bring it upon them selves and are "asking for it". By this I mean they do not dress appropriately for wherever they are going out in public. Instead they dress in a more fetishized manner. I.E. wearing 6 inch stiletto heels and an ultra short mini skirt or dress riding up their bum when they are just going out to the grocery store or to run errands. Now that is an exaggerated example but what I am trying to say is if you are not dressing appropriate for your age and the occassion, you are inviting negative reactions your way. While GGs will get the same negative reactions for not being dressed properly and appropriately, your negative reaction will be compounded.

As long as YOU do everything right, you are in good shape.

[katie_barns]

I have had the funny looks, and a few comments before but nothing that I would consider challenging. Just curious people wanting to know if I was male/female. I had one woman stop me in a mall to tell me how beautiful i was. I looked at her and was like "are you serious". I figured I had been made and this was her way of approaching to find out more. I thanked her and we sat and talked for a while. I flat told her what I was. She acted shocked, I still don't buy it, but she was nice. Just curious.

Funnest thing I ever did was to go Burbon St in New Orleans dressed one night. I wasn't at my most passable, . I really didn't care it was Burbon St after all. I was clocked all night, and drew lots of comments and looks. Even had one woman take a picture of me and her husband. She used the term "Drag Queen". I just smiled and let it pass. Had lots of fun though.

[Lorileah]

With that being said I do think some crossdressers bring it upon them selves and are "asking for it". By this I mean they do not dress appropriately for wherever they are going out in public. :thinking: shaming no matter who and blaming the victim is wrong Not surprised that this came up here because it does show how some old ideas still hang on. I was kind of hoping people who lived in this glass house wouldn't throw that rock.

[AllieSF]

I agree with Lori. Dolovewell, unless you can back up that statement with some solid facts, I believe that it is now how one dresses but rather the odd and, as you said, rare chance that the wrong people sees them (us) at the wrong time. Seeing that most of us do not pass, we are then very obviously dressed as the opposite gender, and thus also obvious to those that may do something to show their dislike of that.

[Princess Chantal]

I have been asked the "are you a man or woman", "are you a boy or girl" or "are you a dude or chick" several of times. None of those times of being asked would I consider it as being challenged or harassed. My reply is always the masculine terms (man, boy, guy). The places usually asked the question are at night clubs (both straight based and lgbt based), friend's house parties, and while dressed up in my Victorian/southern belle dresses on fun outings (children usually do the asking there). In every case the reactions to my answer were always positive and leads to good conversations. Hmmm I wonder if the same positivity would happen if I answered as the feminine terms? Sometimes they apologize for asking, in which I assure them that I personally don't mind and actually would prefer them to know where I am in the transgender community other than assume. However, I do also let them know that other folks in the transgender community may be offended. Usually the people questioning (well the adults) are oddly asking the question to figure out where you are within the transgender umbrella (crossdressing man vs transgender woman). As for the reason for the children asking, my assumption is that they are questioning the mishmash of genders. I usually answer to them with "I am a boy having fun being a girl for the day". Sometimes I get the "you are pretty as a girl" and often get the friendly smile and a goodbye wave or even a hug at the end of the event.
I do receive the rude comments, harassing actions, and preachings here and there when I am out and about. Most often than not it is when I am in a more blending attire. Matter of fact, all the right in my face rude encounters were when I was wearing denim jeans or capris. Those people that are rude were not questioning with the "are you a man or woman" but blatantly stating with phrases like "it's a chick with a dick" or "wtf, it's a guy". I guess they get the impression that my main goal is that I am trying to fool people or I am in the process of transitioning (you know give that punching blow to the gut to those that are)

[dolovewell]

I wouldn't say I am necessary victim blaming. In a thread asking about how common negative encounters are, I think it makes sense to say that you do have some level of control over the likelihood.

It reminds me of the time I was working at Victoria's Secret and this guy came in wearing bikini swimsuit. Really? We kicked him out and he was crying discrimination, etc. I am not going to sympathize with him. I am all for crossdressing and acceptance but I still think there is a line, and when you cross that line I am not going to defend you or sympathize with you. There is a line that can be crossed to where you deserve the shame. It has nothing to do with shaming the crossdresser for crossdressing, but just decency. I'd shame a woman for coming into a retail store wearing a bikini as well.

Now that is obviously a very extreme example but what I am saying is that if you want to minimize your chances of having something negative happen out in public, minimize your risk. Part of minimizing your risk is picking an appropriate outfit.

[Valery L]

Ilene its really not that bad. While many of us have stories of bad experiences, we can all agree they are rare.

... I.E. wearing 6 inch stiletto heels and an ultra short mini skirt or dress riding up their bum when they are just going out to the grocery store or to run errands. Now that is an exaggerated example but what I am trying to say is if you are not dressing appropriate for your age and the occassion, you are inviting negative reactions your way...

As long as YOU do everything right, you are in good shape.


:( I normally use miniskirts or minidresses when I am at the grocery store, I just love them :(

[IleneD]

The responses are amazing windows into the lives of those who share my affirmation of dressing in the clothing I love. Thank you.
I've already found one very welcoming and "understanding" place. My local Ulta beauty store. An appointment for a makeover, my first; and the first stop on a first big day out.

[ellbee]

Now that is obviously a very extreme example but what I am saying is that if you want to minimize your chances of having something negative happen out in public, minimize your risk. Part of minimizing your risk is picking an appropriate outfit.

I got what you were saying the 1st time, and I partially agree, on some levels.


Someone closer to the spectrum of a 6'8" 350-pound guy with a beard, sporting a tutu, fishnets & stilettos, with clown make-up & costume wig -- strutting thru the mall? Yeah, they're going to be getting some negative attention. (Though they probably wouldn't be messing with her, either, LOL.) And no offense to anyone here who may fit that bill. :D


Meanwhile, someone closer to the other end? Sweet little petite thing, very attractive & passable, wearing something pretty legit & natural, looking like the real-deal? Yeah, they're going to be getting some attention, too. Only problem with that, though, is it will be guys, in a sexual manner, checking her out, checking her out, check- Oops! Too much focus & scrutiny... Dude, that's a DUDE! Aaaannd, different kind of negative attention, now. :(




:( I normally use miniskirts or minidresses when I am at the grocery store, I just love them :(

Oh, please. You're like 18 -- you can get away with wearing pretty much anything. Enjoy it while it lasts! ;)

[Valery L]

But I am almost 30 :(

[SarahSerene]

Most of experiences have been that people either don't notice, don't care, or if there's a negative response, it's discrete (be it at the mall, coffee shop, Panera, etc). That's all good, and as I get more confident I find I want to embrace the role of ambassador (as long as it is in safe public places that is). Here's one story though from a few years ago that was a negative experience at the time but looking back I wish I would have had the confidence to handle it differently.

I am at the mall, I enter in through Macy's and then go into the main mall area. As I recall, it's fall, I'm wearing a plaid skirt that hits just below the knee, brown boots with a modest heel, and a sweater. The first kiosk inside the mall is a group of three latino males (I only mention that detail because their style was macho) selling specialty hand lotions... They see me and start cutting up / laughing a little bit. I held my head high and just kept on walking. The only thing I remember hearing as I walked by was "blah blah blah, hombre." I wanted to say to them... "dude, your selling hand lotion!"

So I shop for an hour or so, and the shortest walk back to my car is past their kiosk again. They see me (still kind of giggling but toned down), but one steps forward to try to sell me hand lotion. I give him a "screw off" look and kept on walking into Macy's. Now to my point - looking back, if I had been a little more confident, I should have engaged him and listened to what he had to say. It could have been an opportunity to portray us in such a matter that the next time someone like me came by the booth, they'd be a lot more cool about it, especially if I had bought some product.

[SarahjayneA]

after reading the thread , i think i'll stay in the UK , the states seems to be way behind Europe , in terms of safety
and acceptance .

[ellbee]

But I am almost 30 :(

Oh, hush. I know, as your profile already says that. But you're still a young pup compared to us geezers! :laughing:

[dolovewell]

:( I normally use miniskirts or minidresses when I am at the grocery store, I just love them :(

You are younger and slimmer, so you are probably more able to get away with it. And it depends on how "mini" we are talking about. Mid thigh or a little above? Not a big deal. I live in Portland and there is a large trans/CD community here, and I saw this MTF one time and I could not tell if she was either wearing a dress or a tunic. It was that short. Such an outfit probably wouldn't work for anyone at a place like a grocery store.


The responses are amazing windows into the lives of those who share my affirmation of dressing in the clothing I love. Thank you.
I've already found one very welcoming and "understanding" place. My local Ulta beauty store. An appointment for a makeover, my first; and the first stop on a first big day out.

ULTA is probably the place I go to the most dressed up. Never once had any problems there, ever. Nice and friendly staff.



Now to my point - looking back, if I had been a little more confident, I should have engaged him and listened to what he had to say. It could have been an opportunity to portray us in such a matter that the next time someone like me came by the booth, they'd be a lot more cool about it, especially if I had bought some product.

I want to highlight this because you make a great point. While I am not sure engaging with these men would have been the wisest decision, I do think we owe it to other crossdressers to be ambassadors like you said. Putting your head down, walking away quickly and just trying to hightail out of there will just reinforce the stereotypes of crossdressers as being nervous and ashamed of themselves.

When I first started going out in public, I would avoid any interaction with people. I wouldn't make eye contact, I wouldn't smile, I'd just try to go shopping or whatever and avoid as many people as possible. I would fear speaking to anyone, but some places you have no option when at the cash register. I realized that this anti-social behavior just would make me look creepy and not improve the image and reputation of crossdressers and make it difficult for the rest of us. So I began to be a lot more social, interactive, I would smile to strangers and make eye contact, I would chat up SAs and cashiers at the register. A lot of people will be nervous around you or mock you because your body language and behavior is giving them a reason to. If you are confident and outgoing, you'd be surprised at how nice people become all of a sudden around you and you will make people more positive toward crossdressers in the future. If you want to be an "ambassador", be social and interactive when you are out. Don't even worry about having a female or male voice or not. Chances are you aren't passing anyway, so what difference does it make?


after reading the thread , i think i'll stay in the UK , the states seems to be way behind Europe , in terms of safety
and acceptance .

I strongly, strongly disagree

[Cheryl James]

Just recently in a Goodwill store I was browsing a rack and no one was around me. I detected that someone had come up to the parallel rack across from where I was. I looked up and there was a middle age woman looking at me. We made eye contact. Her face registered a mix of anger and questioning. Neither of us said anything. As I had completed my search through that rack, anyway, I moved to another rack about 20 - 25 feet away. I had been there a couple minutes when the woman came up to that rack and the staring was repeated. She did not say anything, nor did I. In fact, I just kept on looking through the clothes. I did notice that her basket was quite full of clothing that she, I guess, intended to buy. The next thing I knew she had abandoned her basket, walked to the entrance, flung (not "opened", but flung) the door open and marched , not walked, to her car. I watched all of this with some amusement. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the entire episode. Did my presence, dressed as I was, bother her that much that her shopping plans were destroyed. As I said my reaction was amusement at the whole thing. I am notsure how I would have reacted had she said something or created a scene.

[Krisi]

It would be extremely rude (and ignorant) for someone to walk up to another person and ask them if they were a man or a woman unless there was a reason to do so such as in a public restroom or say, "ladies night" at a bar where admission or drinks were reduced price for women.

Something similar happened to a (black) friend of mine who was playing guitar in a (otherwise all white) band. After the dance, a person came up to him and asked "What are you?" He said something on the order of "I beg your pardon?" and the person continued to ask. Finally, my friend figured out what the person was asking and he answered "I am black."

So that was another example of a rude and ignorant question.

To answer the question, nobody has ever asked me this or threatened me but I distinctly remember a woman giving me a dirty look once in a shopping mall.

As for the comment about dressing appropriately, that's reality. If you call attention to yourself, you are more apt to get negative comments or worse. We might wish it were different but it's not. Once you turn off your computer and walk out the door, you're dealing with a different set of people.

[Lorileah]

Cheryl- that's why Goodwill profits dropped that day :) I hope you went through her basket, maybe she had something you needed. Or maybe YOU had something she wanted and when you put it in your basket it ruined her agenda

[Keriala]

I was waiting at the gate in the Spokane airport, in drab. That said, I have a long ponytail, manicured nails and on this day was wearing semi-feminine sandals and jeans. Some middle aged lady came up to me and said "You need to dress different! You look like a woman!" I had my Samsung tablet open, so I switched to the photo gallery, pulled up one of my best pics and said "No maam, right now I look like a long haired hippie freak. In this picture I look like a woman." Her mouth dropped open and she just walked away.

[Krisi]

Maybe a couple of long looks, but never a word said. Granted, I stay out of North Carolina.

North Carolina is a beautiful place. Lots of beautiful scenery and lots of history. And friendly people as well.

North Carolina is one of my favorite places to visit..

[Jennifer4cd]

I was in Pittsburg was dressed with make up and had a set of acrylics and a pedi done with red polish at the Nail Hut. When I left I realized that I did not have any polish remover so I went into a CVS Pharmacy. The young girl clerk read me and smiled. There was a man in the store who came up to me and asked "Are you a man or a woman?" I said, "Well, last year I was a man" End of the story

[Diane Smith]

I've had two significant incidents.

The first time, I was shopping, in drab, in a thrift store in downtown Tucson. A young, tall man started following me around the store as I looked at various items. He didn't get close but would appear again and again at the ends of the aisles where I was looking. It would have been clear to him or anyone else watching that I was shopping for women's clothes. I was a little uncomfortable but tried to carry on as if all was normal, and eventually checked out with a couple of pairs of shoes (heels, of course). The man met me as I was leaving the checkout line and started yelling at me, . I just turned my back on him and walked as quickly as possible to my car, about a block away, to make my getaway. Fortunately he gave up and didn't follow very far.

The second time, I was fully dressed and walking out of the salon in a strip mall after my regular nail appointment. It was a Saturday afternoon, bright daylight, and I thought I was looking good and had a pretty new polish job on. A man who was standing in front of a store a door or two down started yelling after me -- "Sir, oh sir, I just want to know why you're dressed like that?" He followed me all the way to my car in the lot and finished up right outside my van and looking in the window as I, again, drove off as quickly as possible.

I doubt either one of them were going to become violent, but you never know, and I admit they both made me nervous. The first one freaked me out more because I was farther from my car and in an unfamiliar city, just doing my tourist shopping thing.

I've also been asked several times by children, while in drab clothes, "are you a man or a woman?" It can be embarrassing and always happens at the worst of times, but it's not threatening, and I credit this to their curiosity and lack of filters. I certainly have a few "tells" even in "him" mode that could leave them confused -- long nails, shaped brows, permanent eyeshadow, visible piercing dimples. So it's kind of expected that I will get that kind of response once in awhile.

- Diane

[Pat]

Diane -- The "Sir, oh sir!" reference rang a bell for me. I was out on one of my regular walking routes when I passed a house where a guy was sitting on his porch and he started up, "Sir! Oh Sir! Hello Sir!" I smiled and waved at him and kept going, meditating on how just a year earlier that might have made me feel mortified instead of making me laugh. Fast forward about a year and I'm out on the same route and the same guy is sitting on his front steps with his cell phone pressed up against his ear, clearly involved in whatever was going on there. As I walked by he just gave a quick glance and distractedly said, "Hi, love." I smiled and waved and kept going. ;) (Edit: I think the lesson here is that people who are concerned about your presentation clearly have too much free time on their hands. When they have problems of their own, they have no time for you. ;) )

My girlfriend (TS) is an entertainer that deals with children a lot. She frequently gets the "are you a boy or a girl?" question. She just says "I was born a boy on the outside and a girl on the inside. Now I'm a girl." Most of them are fine with that answer but some ask why she's a girl now and she tells them "because it makes me happy." And that speaks directly to kids experience -- they understand doing things that make you happy.