You shall not pass!

[Meghan4now]

Ok....

A. I don't have a long grey beard, and no jokes about my staff in my hand.
And
2. Last I checked, you all are not just a bunch of flamming....Balrogs.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I can relate what I really want to tell you. Passing IS possible. Passing meaning that as you interact with the public, you are perceived as a woman, even though you were born with genetically male components.

But Meghan how do you know, how do you dare to make such a pronouncement? Because I've seen it with my own eyes, as recently as Monday night.

Monday evening, I was fortunate enough to meet with Heidi as she Passed through town. We had drinks at a local establishment, wonderful conversation and great treatment from the staff. I was en drab, she en fem. And let me tell you, I looked very carefully, and closely monitored the staff interaction. And my total assessment was, Heidi was a woman of her late 50s, in good health and totally appropriately dressed for a Monday evening meeting her brother on a trip through town.

Of course the coversation was good and time was too short. I snapped a photo out in the parking lot, but the sodium vapor lamps made us orange and blury, so eww. Plus it wasn't Meghan in the pick, and no one wants to see boy me.

But let me tell you. Passing IS possible. Maybe not easy, but possible.

[DIANEF]

Oh yes, certainly for some, but I would suspect that only a small percentage of a CDers can do so completely, some come close and many would blend without difficulty.

[michelleddg]

Truth! Hugs, Michelle

[Beverley Sims]

In order to pass you do have to do a little preparation each time.

Generally we are accepted because not many stop to look for the pointers that expose us.

Go confidently about your business, dress conservatively enough not to stand out and you will be successful enough to keep people guessing,if in fact they are looking at all.

[Dana44]

I agree, sometimes when when the stars and moon is right. It seems magical that one can pass. My So says that if you are women enough, the people only glance and think, yeah shes is a girl. and go about their business.

[Tracii G]

For some people if they see female clothes they assume the person wearing them is female.
We know that is not always the case but I have found being dressed and accessorized tastefully you will be perceived as female from a distance or just a quick glance.
The close up encounters are harder but I know a few that pass very well and even well enough to make me look twice.

[Kate Simmons]

Usually when we stop worrying about "passing" is when we do. The reason is that we can be ourselves without being guarded about it. :battingeyelashes::)

[Rachael Leigh]

While it's true there are times I think I do pass once in the good light I know it's really not possible to pass 100 percent
especially since I'm not one to use all the enhancements some do. I prefer just to be me en fem don't need all the extras except the wig and makeup of course and I'm ok with how I look and most of the time when I get addressed I people will use the proper pronoun so if that's passing I'm good with that

[Becky Blue]

Try this little experiment, spend an hour in a coffeeshop and carefully observe the people. You will see that there are many women who have manly characteristics. There are women with big hands, big shoulders, hairy arms, women who are well over 6 feet tall.. do they pass? of course they do.

If we are dressed to fit in and have no obvious signs such as a heavy shadow, i think most people don't look hard enough to notice us either way.

[Judith96a]

Yes Becky, I tend to agree. However, in my case the dead giveaway is my voice - too male to not give me away. That said, I have a female friend who, on the telephone at least, sounds 100% male! Go figure.

[Sarah Louise]

There are women with big hands, big shoulders, hairy arms, women who are well over 6 feet tall.. do they pass? of course they do.

Or they're actually crossdressers who don't pass that well?:)

[Emma Leigh]

My So says that if you are women enough, the people only glance and think, yeah shes is a girl. and go about their business.

Your SO is right ..but watch out for kids ...they tend to study you more carefully the little sods

[Valery L]

I think that there are people that can pass at a certain distance. A subset of them can even pass at a reduced distance. And a subset of the subset can even pass while interacting with other people. Perhaps it is difficult, and there are many factors including body language, physical complexion, a good voice, appropriate clothes, good and appropriate makeup, appropriate hair or wig, etc... it is possible for certain people to meet those conditions specially for the androgynous looking guys, since they naturally fulfil the more difficult requeriments. For the rest of us it becomes more difficult but at least to pass at a certain distance I think it is something that many of us can do with the required practice and skills.

[Teresa]

Kate,
So simply and well put ! I've finally found that one out after asking it too many times .

[char GG]

I had the opportunity to go to Thailand a few years ago. There are quite a few CDers there. Some of them did pretty obvious things to "out" themselves. One was way overdressed (long sleeved jacket,skirt, heels) in the 90 degree heat. One of them was totally enamored with her reflection in the subway window. But the most interesting were the CDers that would look at people right in the eye, a piercing look - almost like daring people to "look" at them. The contrast was that there were no women that did that. Women went about their business without seeming to notice people around them.

My point is, that if CDers just go about their business without worrying about who is or isn't looking at them, I don't think the public would notice unless the CDer is dressed in stripper-wear at the mall or church-wear at a beach. Staring at someone's face forces that person to stare back which makes it more likely that the CDer would be outed.

Meghan has a good point, just go about your business, be friendly, answer if spoken to, and don't react like a deer in headlights.

[Teresa]

Char,
My assumption was they are possibly looking for hook ups and the stare is daring the other person to take a chance. That's my assumption after seeing the Ladyboy series on TV. For some it's the only way to make a living and support their family out in the country.

[char GG]

Teresa, that is a very interesting comment. It is most certainly a possibility! Some were "dressed" for the occasion.

[dolovewell]

Try this little experiment, spend an hour in a coffeeshop and carefully observe the people. You will see that there are many women who have manly characteristics. There are women with big hands, big shoulders, hairy arms, women who are well over 6 feet tall.. do they pass? of course they do.

If we are dressed to fit in and have no obvious signs such as a heavy shadow, i think most people don't look hard enough to notice us either way.

The downside to this line of thinking is that these women who have such features, they still have far more feminine features than masculine. A woman with 1% or 2% masculine features still has 98% feminine features to cancel them out and people will still read them female. For men its harder since we have more masculine features than feminine, and while we can try to downplay our masculine features and play up our feminine features all we want, the scale is still tipped against us.

Call me a hater but I think passing for a crossdresser is a fantasy. I look at crossdressing pics on here, Flickr, Reddit, and such every day and its rare that I see a photo that I consider passable. You pretty much need a perfect storm. I have been blessed with a slim figure, not the most masculine face, and a higher pitched voice, but my jaw and chin will give me away immediately no matter how much I contour them.

It's why I don't care about passing, because I know I don't. I just get anxious around big crowds.

[Meghan4now]

I will admit that it is not easy to pass, and for many men, extremely unlikely. And perhaps a little help like electrolysis or laser, or some ffs, might be needed for some.

But I have met in person a fair number of crossdressers and not an insignificant number of them could actually pass. I do find it interesting that some CDS that have the opinion that almost no cds can pass often have the same opinion of themselves. Transference perhsps? And Dolove, I think you are particularly hard on your self. I'd be willing to bet you do better than you think, and if your not happy with your passability, it might just take a couple of tweeks!

[Becky Blue]

I have to disagree with you to some extent Dolovewell. I know and have been out with some TransGirls who look very feminine, and I can also think of a couple of genetic women I know who have quite a lot of masculine features. Perhaps these women have a bit more testosterone in their bodies than average.

Re passing, it really depends on what you define as passing. In my opinion, if I can walk around a shopping centre and not get any attention, no second glances, no stares. I have blended in and therefore passed, yes I am pretty sure if they started at me perhaps they may work me out. In my case I don't care whether i passed or not but its kind of nice to blend in.

[Julogden]

That's great, congratulations to Heidi, but just because some are passable doesn't mean that everyone is.

[rachelatshop]

Call me a hater but I think passing for a crossdresser is a fantasy. I look at crossdressing pics on here, Flickr, Reddit, and such every day and its rare that I see a photo that I consider passable. You pretty much need a perfect storm. I have been blessed with a slim figure, not the most masculine face, and a higher pitched voice, but my jaw and chin will give me away immediately no matter how much I contour them.

It's why I don't care about passing, because I know I don't. I just get anxious around big crowds.

I agree with what you are saying. If anyone was to look at 99% of the cross dressers closely none of us would pass, but in the real world most of the time people are so involved in doing what ever they are involved in that they don't take the time to look at anyone closely unless we give them a reason to look. Saying that I'm not saying we pass, but we can blend in quite well.

[suzanne]

Passing is not only overrated, it's unnecessary. And possibly dangerous, as in the case where a cis man has picked up someone he thinks is a woman but turns out to be CD or TG. Very few crossdresssers ever truly pass to the extent that the world is fooled to believe that it's a woman wearing that dress. In many more cases, it's still obviously a man, but they are dressed in a modest, age appropriate way and acting in a quiet, confident, respectful way that there is no reason to think poorly of them. I call that condition Acceptance and that it should be our goal, not fooling the public.

[jennifer0918]

Suzanne I agree, in my case if I wanna pass is for my oWN self fulfillment and satisfaction and not to fool the public.My question is this is crossdressing about gay or bi?and maybe that's why some cd's wanna pass to attract a Suiter? This is a good question about passing with many answer tailored to an individual.

[ellbee]

Call me a hater but I think passing for a crossdresser is a fantasy.


What exactly is the criteria for passing, anyway?


Someone who passes 100% of the time with 100% of the people? 50%? 1%?

Is distance a factor? 50 feet away? 20 feet? 3 feet away?

Is speaking involved? If so, how long does the conversation need to be? Based on word count? Percentage?

Do they have to spend the whole day together? See each other more than once? Some kind of longer-term relationship?


What's the universally agreed-upon definition of passing?

It's all so confusing... :strugglin

[JustJoni]

Is distance a factor? 50 feet away? 20 feet? 3 feet away?



That sounds like the loose criteria I used when restoring cars. You had the "20/20" level of car. From 20 feet away, and at 20 miles per hour (essentially passing the car on a slow road from the opposite direction) it looked great!! If you saw it, you'd blip your horn and give the driver a thumbs up on the good looking car.

But, like nearly every car (even the oft praised 'trailer queens'), give them a slow walk around at a show and almost every single one of them had flaws of some sort that were visible under close or careful inspection. Very little in any area of life, even what appears shiny and awesome, bears up perfectly under close scrutiny.

[Krisi]

It's been said that you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time. Well, "passing" is "fooling". Some of us come close to looking like a woman than others. Some would not pass on a moonless night but others may pass in most situations. We often see photos and the question "Do I pass?" A photo is one thing but to pass in public is far more difficult. I'm guessing 10% of us can do it. And as Joni puts it, it depends on how close we are to others and how long they have to examine us. Walking down the street is a different situation than spending a half hour sitting in a restaurant eating a meal.

It's difficult for us to know what other people are thinking unless they do a double take, make faces or comments.

[Meghan4now]

I generally agree with Krisi's statement, and I think the 10% figure is probably a better estimate than 1%. But I strongly disagree (not Krisi's statement) with Never, or Fantasy (although it is certainly possible that the only one you are "fooling" is yourself).

I don't particularly like the term fooling because it implies that someone is a fool. One other point, when I read the concept that passing is not possible, then in the next statement that it is dangerous because some guy you are picking up will be mad because you fooled him, I see two problems. First, the two statements totally disagree. Either he thought you were a girl or not. Second, most of the CDS I know are not in the habit of pivoting up strange men, that's risky business no matter who you are, or how you are dressed!

[Krisi]

Perhaps this should be a topic for a separate thread, but when we talk about attempting to pass and the fact (or belief) that most of us cannot pass, at least at close range, where does that leave the transsexuals? Really, the only difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual is in the mind. They have the same broad shoulders we have, the same big hands and big feet. They take it more seriously than we do and they may take hormones or have surgery, but they started out with a male body just like us. How do they pass?

[dolovewell]

What exactly is the criteria for passing, anyway?


Someone who passes 100% of the time with 100% of the people? 50%? 1%?

Is distance a factor? 50 feet away? 20 feet? 3 feet away?

Is speaking involved? If so, how long does the conversation need to be? Based on word count? Percentage?

Do they have to spend the whole day together? See each other more than once? Some kind of longer-term relationship?


What's the universally agreed-upon definition of passing?

It's all so confusing... :strugglin

For me, its someone reading you female when looking at you for longer than just a glance, from any distance.

I do not believe I fool anyone who gets a good look at me for longer than a second, regardless of distance.


Perhaps this should be a topic for a separate thread, but when we talk about attempting to pass and the fact (or belief) that most of us cannot pass, at least at close range, where does that leave the transsexuals? Really, the only difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual is in the mind. They have the same broad shoulders we have, the same big hands and big feet. They take it more seriously than we do and they may take hormones or have surgery, but they started out with a male body just like us. How do they pass?

Horomones do a lot of good on their own, and then surgeries to fix what horomones couldn't

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Meghan:hugs:, It's just mind over matter, If you don't mind it doesn't matter...:daydreaming:...

[Lily Catherine]

The passing rate is inherently dependent on how high you put the threshold. It's one thing to not be noticed too obviously at a distance, and another to be mistaken for the opposite gender. I've thrown around this analogy for quite a bit: a camouflaged soldier in the woodland isn't going to be visible in the distance, but up close they aren't going to be mistaken for vegetation close up. I don't think I camouflage that well myself at any rate - I reckon I may as well be outed before I talk (and once I talk, I am virtually certainly getting myself clocked.)

[Kandi Robbins]

Passing? Who cares! Being treated well, being respected, allowed to move about freely, these are the most important things.

How someone I don't even know pigeonholes me, what do I care...... Everyone you see, every single day has some issue they are dealing with. Many just aren't that obvious to us on the surface.

We are all people, that's all. Love one another, be nice to people, we can only make changes one person at a time.

[Heidi Stevens]

First of all, thank you for the high praise for my appearance, Megan. True, I consider myself to be transgender, inside I am a woman. To help make the outside match ( and help with other issues) I take hormones and blockers to help my presentation. I also have had 8 treatments of laser on my face to remove my shadow. I also have been thru a couple of years of therapy, deportment training and I got somewhat lucky in the gene pool. Taking all that into effect, I think I've gone beyond what most guys would have done to pass as a woman while CDing. And there is a bunch more I could do to refine my look even more, so even I am not "there" yet.
I do wish you'd post the photo, though. I look so good in sodium vapor orange!

[ellbee]

For me, its someone reading you female when looking at you for longer than just a glance, from any distance.

How long do they have to look?

And what about lighting levels? Does the environment have to be a certain brightness? If it's a bit dark, does it no longer count?

How about angle? Frontal view? Two-thirds view? From the back? 360?

Does the CD'er have to be moving? Or could they just be sitting or standing there?

Suppose something is partially blocking the CD'er? From the waist, down? From the boobs, down?

Do they need to have perfect 20/20 vision? What about color-blindness?

Does it matter if the non-CD'er has a couple drinks in them? What's the cut-off for blood alcohol content?

Suppose the non-CD'er is tired? Or if they're running late & still get a good-enough look, but doesn't have time to fully inspect which perhaps would have changed their initial impression?

If they passed & they legitimately thought it was a real GG for 10 seconds afterwards, or 5 minutes, or 1 hour, but later on they get another good look & finally realize it's actually a guy, did it still count for the first part?


Yes, I could keep going & going. And yes, I'm being obnoxious with my rhetorical questions. :laughing:

But it can get a bit silly, too. Especially when someone places very strict standards on what's deemed as "passing" in their mind. I guess I could come up with some where it would be impossible for anyone to pass. Then I'd be able to pound the table that no one ever passes. :D

[Rachael Leigh]

Here here Kandi, preach on your so right we are all just people we dress because we can and if we are pleasant and not
pushy life just goes on. So while I'm sure we all want to pass it's becoming more ok that we don't I hope