He Said...She Said...

[Leslie Langford]

How many of us here can relate to this observation?

I know, I know...some will say that we're whining when we express this kind of thought, that we need to "grow a pair", that we should own our clothing choices the way GG's have adopted men's style clothing and made it their own as well, and that no one can make us feel ashamed of ourselves for who/what we are as crossdressers or transgender folk unless we let them.

Still, I think that this kind of juxtaposition of one aspect of the male/female experience (divide?) is rather cute, and this photo neatly encapsulates one of the remaining gender biases that still exist today.

[CynthiaD]

Yeah, I can relate to this. When you said "grow a pair," though, I hope you were referring to breasts. :)

[Rachael Leigh]

Yes Leslie I completely agree with this and it's so true. I think it has a lot to do with why I go out so much now, I can wear
what I want and I'm not bothering anyone I'm just being me, it's time to get out of that closet

[JustJoni]

Too true...the wife and I were discussing this just this morning. I am very glad (and extremely lucky) that she feels it shouldn't be that way.

[Micki_Finn]

Sorry to be the fly in the ointment but I do t care for the image. It seems to dismiss and minimize the gender biases and sexism women still experience to this day. It seems to be saying that being a woman is all roses and sunshine in this wonderfully modern equal world we live in. Yes it's hard for the trans and CD community but just because a woman can wear a man's shirt doesn't mean she has achieved equality.

[Leslie Langford]

I agree, Micki, and I did make mention in my post that other gender biases still exist as well. Clearly, women still get the short end of the stick when it comes to many of these and much work remains to be done in this area to ensure the ultimate goal of full equality.

However, when it comes to society's blessing to explore whatever clothing choices strike their fancy, the gals still have it all over us. They fought and won that battle years ago - particularly the "right" to wear pants at a time when that was thought to be a shocking concept - and so it behooves us to take a page out of their playbook to assert our right to do the same, even if it is accompanied by resistance, mocking, and derision by the muggles until they get their collective heads around that particular idea as well...

[Kiwi]

I may be totally off the mark about this, but I believe that men not being accepted when crossdressing is still a discrimination against women. This is because being a woman is seen by some as being weak. A woman that wears men's (or men's styled) clothing is seen as being strong, even by other women. But a man that wears women's clothing is somehow moving down in status. It is also the reason that you hear about MtF TS more than FtM TS.

If you want to fight this, the best place to start would be to work on the perception that society has of women. A tough ask, I know.

[ellbee]

Sorry to be the fly in the ointment but I do t care for the image. It seems to dismiss and minimize the gender biases and sexism women still experience to this day. It seems to be saying that being a woman is all roses and sunshine in this wonderfully modern equal world we live in. Yes it's hard for the trans and CD community but just because a woman can wear a man's shirt doesn't mean she has achieved equality.


Clearly, women still get the short end of the stick when it comes to many of these and much work remains to be done in this area to ensure the ultimate goal of full equality.


And just as men, as a whole, get the short end of the stick regarding a huge swath of other (non-CD-related) facets in life.

Can't get to pick & choose the whole equality thing, here. Gotta take the good with the bad.


But let's not turn this thread into a pissing contest on who has it worse. Because *everybody* gets crapped on in this world in all kinds of different ways. Don't kid yourselves otherwise. :)

[ReineD]

this photo neatly encapsulates one of the remaining gender biases that still exist today.

First, I need to say that you conveniently picture a woman who wears a tie. Of the hundreds of women I see around me on a daily basis, I can honestly say that not one of them wears ties. ;) Also, you show a picture of someone who could be transitioning and who actually looks like a woman, which is rather rare for CDers.

Leslie, you do keep getting back to this. But, you’re not placing it in context and you’re comparing apples to oranges.

A woman’s freedom to wear what she wants is born from a history of oppression. You can look at history books if you do not believe me. And so women have emancipated themselves during the 20th century and along with this comes the freedom to shed traditional "women’s clothes" if they want to. But, they do not want others to think they are men. They do not attempt to look like men. They are not confused about their gender. The wearing of pants or skirts does not change who they are and does not make them men sometimes and women at other times, like many CDers report when they get in and out of their feminine clothing.

When a man wants to dress as a woman, it is not because he is breaking through the shackles that have kept him oppressed for thousands of years. Most men (not the TSs) start out because it is sexually thrilling. It makes them feel good to dress like a girl.

So on the one hand we have women who broke down some of the gender barriers for social/political reasons. On the other, we have a small percentage of men who do want to be viewed as women but only when they’re dressed (and I’m not speaking of transitioning TSs), who then want to co-opt women’s well-earned right to break out of the "traditional" woman's mold, and apply it to themselves because it feels good and not because they have overcome oppression. Is there any wonder the world looks differently at a woman who wears pants and who wants to be viewed as a woman, and a CDer who wears a dress and who wants to be viewed as a woman when he does so (which in most instances is when he is engaged in leisure activities). I'm not saying that one is better than the other, I am simply saying that their motives are different and so the levels of acceptance about what they do will also be different.

Let me put it to you a different way:

Pretend for a moment that men and women have always been equal - in politics, industry, the ownership of property, the division of labor, and in family roles (except obviously for the birthing and lactation of children). If there had been full equality from the beginning of time, we might never have had any skirts or dresses for women to break out of. Women would have ridden the horses alongside men, they would have gone to war alongside men, there would have been no need for men to see them as property and require them to wear skirts for easy access.

And in the bedroom? Well, the most efficient access is for both partners to be naked. :)

But getting back to your post, I do agree with your statement that you simply need to ignore the people who think you are dressing for kicks (if this is not your reason for dressing), and you can simply tell them you are expressing your gender identity, if you in fact identify as a woman. But in all honestly, you don't need to dress as a woman to express what society has deemed is "traditionally feminine". You can be nurturing, kind, giving, selfless, loving, etc, or if you're starting out in a career, you can limit yourself to the careers that have traditionally limited women, like secretarial work or nursing. You can do the exact same thing as the women who have taken on "traditional" men's roles as professionals, or bosses, or political leaders and who have had to develop discipline, analytical skills, some degree of "toughness", etc, without presenting as if they were men.

[ellbee]

"Of the hundreds of women I see around me on a daily basis, I can honestly say that not one of them wears ties. ;) "


Weird.

I *would* say you should get out more. But then again, I don't even have to leave my house, and I see women all over the world wearing ties.


I can easily pull up any kind of image you prefer, whether it's related to military, education, corporate, fashion, entertainment, aviation, restaurants, etc.

Just let me know, and I'll see what I can do. ;)

[Nikkilovesdresses]

there would have been no need for men to see them as property and require them to wear skirts for easy access.

In antiquity male and female clothing was far more similar. Roman soldiers fought in leather miniskirts and strappy sandals.

So what happened? Why did costumes diverge to the present extent?

[Majella St Gerard]

When women express masculine qualities they are considered strong when a man expresses feminine qualities he is considered weak. It's a double standard and it's :edit:. You throw, run, cry like a girl is a put down. The only person to strike me out in softball was a girl, so there.

[Zooey]

I think some of you may need to re-read what ReineD wrote. As seems to be par for the course lately, there's quite a bit of selective hearing/comprehension going on here.

[Valery L]

It is part of the modern gynocentric society, where only the issues of women matter in the eyes of society and the law, such that the men demanding for true equality and fighting for their rights are censored, repressed and reduced to be called simply as crying babies. In this hypocritical society, where the media, the government, etc, give women the support to do almost whatever they want, such as government financial support, an entire judicial system working to benefit them, scholarships, etc, simply because they were born with a vagina, while at the same time perpetuate the image of women as the eternal victims. In this society it is expected something like this. Nobody cares about men, it does not matter that something as absurd as do not let them dress like they want without expecting social shame, is a reality for men, and it is a topic completely ignored (along with other topics) in debates about equality. As I already said, nobody cares about men. They do not have feelings, they need to be strong, they are expected just to work hard and to provide.

[Zooey]

I find the apparent overlap between the "men who like to pretend to be women" and "men's rights activists" communities to be truly fascinating.

Valery... I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Jane277]

Zoey hate to burst your bubble but Valery is correct, here's an example we had a girl on our school wrestling team, she went against boys as she was the only female wrestler in the program, the boys she beat (she was good) was ridiculed and shamed for getting beat by a girl, then finally a boy beat her and she suffered an injury, that boy was ridiculed for hurting her, and shamed for beating a girl

Another example of unfair treatment of men, only a woman can decide whether or not to terminate or keep a pregnancy, if she wants to abort it the man has no say even if he wants to keep the child, but if he doesn't want the child and the woman does he has no choice but to support the child,

Also all a woman has to do is run her fingers through a phone book and put a random name on her child's birth certificate and he has to prove it is not his,

All a woman has to do is say he raped me and it is up to the man to prove otherwise, of course once the man is accused he gets arrested loses his job, his family leaves him, then finally after he spends all his life's savings and proves she made it up, he is still out his job his family and his money,

Another example, a man hits a woman he is a coward and not a real man, and if she beats him, he is a wimp and not a real man.

Also 90% of courts will automatically give custody to the mother, even if both parents are equally capable of properly raising the children

Yes I know what I'm talking about, I have been through each and every one of them,
My brother got his gf pregnant and she had an abortion even tho he wanted the child, I was the h.s. wrestler who was bullied because I beat a girl in a contact sport
My sister kept her child when the father didn't want one, my mother use to get drunk and hit my father until he hit her then she called the cops and say he beat her. And we have all seen news stories of men getting falsely accused of rape and sent to prison only to find out the woman made the whole thing up.

No matter your sex color religion or sexual orientation life is unfair,

[natalie_cheryl]

I love this meme, an I totally relate

[Sarasometimes]

My only suggestion is keep this post civil.

[Krisi]

One of the problems with the Internet and social media is that anyone, just anyone can make up something and publish it for millions to see. Claiming that women being able to wear neckties while boys can't wear skirts is "gender bias" is pretty far out there. I would think people have far more important things to worry about.

[Majella St Gerard]

Way to go Jane, well played.

[Zooey]

I'm not even going to get into the societal expectations placed on women around what they're expected to give up for children, wanted or not, but... wow.

I understand that when you have extraordinary male privilege, any minor "advantage" (most of the things you've listed are not rooted in advantage) women have in specific situations may feel like "only women's issues matter" or that "men are being marginalized". When you're accustomed to privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

Sorry fellas, but you're far from oppressed. You live in an ocean of blue, and you feel oppressed because there are a few tiny pink dots in the middle of it.

[Lorileah]

We sorta have a rule here about whining over what women can do (wear) and what men THINK they cannot do (wear). Women, as far as clothing goes, stood up and made it alright to wear what they wear. Men and many men here are in this batch, haven't done anything to gain the same right because they don't have the same drive to correct it. As far as examples of how men seem to be getting the short end of the stick as you say, men have had the whole stick for so long they don't see that they aren't losing it, it is just getting balanced. The having a baby thing? In this world, as a man, you KNOW the risks of sexual intercourse and you KNOW how to protect yourself. You don't you lay your bet, you takes your chances. The woman takes similar chances if she has the child and since it takes two to FOXTROT, she has the responsibility to care for the child until it is emancipated (unless of course the male takes hat and then she gets to to have to share financial responsibility....see it works both ways, you made it, you share care). So that argument is specious and doesn't really hold water. The rape thingy? You may be detained on accusations but you aren't arrested until there is some evidence. Once again, you should know to protect yourself (and NO he isn't required to prove he didn't, the court is required to prove by preponderance of evidence he did. Refer to recent Colorado case where date rape drugs were used). And let's look at history on that, men were not tried or arrested for most assaults because it was what a man "did". Women stood up against that too.

The girl on the wrestling team? Poor boys egos were hurt because???? They never lost to another boy or that was OK because they were "equals"? Whereas they assumed the girl wasn't their equal? Sounds like a problem for the councilor. And really? People said she was hurt because she wasn't up to wrestling boys after she beaten other boys at the game? I will assume she didn't claim unfairness when that happened. She took the loss.

To summarize, grow up, stand up, take your own destiny in your hands. You want to wear 5" heels to work...fight to change the rules. Men actually did this when they decided miniskirts and strappy sandals weren't the best war outfit. (reference modern battle dress men and women...seems equal huh?) If it isn't worth fighting for, it isn't worth whining over. How did Yoda say it? "Do or Do not" "that is why you fail"

[ellbee]

I think some of you may need to re-read what ReineD wrote. As seems to be par for the course lately, there's quite a bit of selective hearing/comprehension going on here.

Yes, quite a bit of selectiveness, Zooey. And that includes how one looks at "male privilege" and "women's oppression" in today's world, too. ;)

Again, I'm not willing to turn this thread into a pissing contest. Because even if I did, I'm sure you wouldn't change your mind on this, regardless how strong a case I and/or others could make. Just as I'm sure as heck you wouldn't change mine.


And yes, believe it or not, CD'ing is *not* dependent on how one views things. Weird how you like to assume that everyone here is the same. Fact is, CD'ing does not discriminate. We come from all walks of life. Get used to it. :)

[~Joanne~]

When a man wants to dress as a woman, it is not because he is breaking through the shackles that have kept him oppressed for thousands of years. Most men (not the TSs) start out because it is sexually thrilling. It makes them feel good to dress like a girl.


I can agree with this, for most of us, if we are honest about it, it was a sexual thrill the first hundred times but then it becomes something else. You begin to realize that it goes beyond the sexual thing and that's when it becomes really confusing too. I have a hosiery fetish, has been with me forever and isn't going any where. When i started dressing that's naturally where it started, I had to know what they felt like to wear pantyhose and the only way that could be done was to actually wear a pair.

I disagree when it changed for me when it went from just pantyhose to heels, skirts, you get the idea. I think the reason was because all of it was taboo , or forbidden, and I am the type of person that when you tell me I can't do something, guess what? lol I often wonder though, did I start wearing them because women stopped wearing them? I know on both sides of the fence nothing is green but women can most certainly change things a lot easier than men can for whatever reason. They didn't want to wear skirts and just stopped, nothing said, no revolts (that I know of) and no one thinks twice about it really,

Us? it's not the same. as apparent here, marriages are destroyed, employment lost, unbearable ridicule, and the list goes on and on because we wanted the same freedom and the same right to wear what we want to wear, not what someone tells us we can or can not wear. I know a lot of sister's that are out and about daily won't agree with that statement because they live in a personal bubble where they believe that no one is paying attention to them but that isn't the case but your most than welcome to believe it because who knows, maybe some day you'll be the ones that change all of this, unlike caitlin jenner.

[Leslie Langford]

O.K., ladies - let's keep this civil, as it wasn't my intention to start a flame war with my O.P., nor an existential philosophical debate around the merits of feminism, who needs it, and why, or even which gender has first dibs on real or perceived victimhood.

Let's stick with the KISS principle here (Keep It Simple, Stupid). My only intention was to post a meme which pointed out in a semi-humorous way how many of us feel about current societal conventions (restrictions?) about what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear vs. men. Yes, fashions change, and yes, it was normal for men to wear powdered wigs, makeup, frilly, lace-embellished blouses, feathered hats and even high heels in the 17th and 18th centuries. In fact, high heels were first worn by men to facilitate getting into and out of stirrups when riding horses until women co-opted them. Heck, in the early 20th century, young boys were often photographed wearing dresses and pink was considered to be a very masculine color. But like it or not, a person's choice of clothing can be very polarizing depending what message it is perceived to project. Just look at the strong feelings - both pro and con - that the wearing of the hijab can elicit in some quarters.

Fashion changes, and so do peoples' attitudes. My only point was that - rightly or wrongly - in today's world it is perfectly O.K. for women to wear whatever they want even if it is "borrowed from the boys", whereas for a man to wear something that is perceived to be even remotely feminine is looked at askance. Sure, we can flout convention and wear what we want as well, either by wearing distinctly female clothing in otherwise male mode, openly crossdressing without worrying about "passing", dressing androgynously, underdressing, or simply sporting a hint of female accoutrements such as barely noticeable earrings or only adding clear polish when getting a manicure. But the fact is - and remains - that if we are discovered doing any of these things, we are liable to attract disapproving looks, snickers, snide remarks, and in some cases - even downright hostility from the transphobes and the homophobes out there. Women do not face the same type of censure unless they dress in an overtly calculated and provocative manner, but even so, this is usually within the context of wearing otherwise female-designated clothing.

This is not conjecture or some sort of paranoia - it is a matter of record. It wasn't even that long ago...back in the 1950's and earlier...that there were even laws in place in many jurisdiction specifically forbidding men from dressing in women's clothing in public and engaging in "female impersonation". Those days are thankfully behind us now, but the stigma still remains. So it really is up to us individually to decide if - or how - to push the envelope to assert our right to wear what we want, knowing full well that there may be a price to be paid in doing so by way of negative consequences (potential job loses, discrimination, marital discord etc., etc.). As the saying goes, "You pays your money, and you takes your chances...".

[nonameyet1234]

I would say that although I would have historically agreed with this meme that after reading through some of the replies, in order to make this a true 1:1 comparison; picture the woman wearing a fake beard and a wig with short hair. Then it would be a woman trying to truly present as a man like the man is presenting as a woman. Now, a woman walking around like that would garner all the same issues any of us would dressed in public.

[ellbee]

Since the GG's like to "steal" male fashion so much, maybe *all* guys need to start wearing dresses & hose. :heehee:

[Lorileah]

Go for it...(gets popcorn and soda)


That is EXACTLY the point some of us have been driving. The only thing stopping you is your fear of losing your "man" card

[ellbee]

Actually, my point was that since apparently GG's love to swipe male fashion so much, then if most/all guys start wearing dresses & hose all the time, then most/all the GG's would eventually ditch their jeans or pants or whatever, and come back to wearing dresses & hose -- which is apparently what many here seem to wish for. :D

[Bonnie Chan]

This thread is so long that I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this. But I think, to really compare apple to apple, you'd need to imagine a girl wearing boyfriend's cloth, and boy wearing girlfriend's cloth. Of course with both of them still intend to present as their birthright gender. Now, that's the true 1:1 comparison regarding the rights to wear clothes. I do have my own perspective on what would happen in this scenario, but I'll let you guys think for yourself so not to be biased by my thinking.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

Actually, my point was that since apparently GG's love to swipe male fashion so much

LOL, good luck with your little plan.

Women are not "swiping" male fashion. Women have shed and are still shedding oppressive mandates, targeting both appearance and behavior. For the record, those mandates have almost invariably come from men.

[ellbee]

I'm an optimist when it comes to this evil plan of mine. It sounds so crazy, that it might just work! :devil:

[sometimes_miss]

just because a woman can wear a man's shirt doesn't mean she has achieved equality.
There will never be complete equality, as men and women are different both physically and how we interpret and interact with the world, and that's a good thing. The best we can hope for, is equal opportunity. That, we are very close to achieving.

[ReineD]

"Of the hundreds of women I see around me on a daily basis, I can honestly say that not one of them wears ties. ;) "


Weird.

I *would* say you should get out more. But then again, I don't even have to leave my house, and I see women all over the world wearing ties.

All over the world? I can google "women wearing ties" and the algorithm will turn up lots of photographs. But around me every day? Nope. The women that I see in my neighborhood, at school, among my friends, at the mall, look pretty much like this:

https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhcs-women-staff/uhcs-women-staff-groupphoto-2015.jpg

No one is wearing ties. While their style of dress may not adhere to some CDers' standards if they prefer a dressier and more stylish presentation, these women are most definitely not trying to portray themselves as men, even if one of them was wearing a tie. :)


In antiquity male and female clothing was far more similar. Roman soldiers fought in leather miniskirts and strappy sandals.

So what happened? Why did costumes diverge to the present extent?

Maybe they discovered eventually that pants contribute to less chafing when riding a horse than no-pants? :)


I can agree with this, for most of us, if we are honest about it, it was a sexual thrill the first hundred times but then it becomes something else. You begin to realize that it goes beyond the sexual thing and that's when it becomes really confusing too.

Are you familiar with the chemical reactions that occur in the brain through the process of learning, or the process of conditioning through reward? The more you engage in an activity, especially if it is pleasurable, the more synapses are connected through the release of neurotransmitters, and you effectively end up rewiring your brain. If you had not engaged in the pleasurable sexual release from wearing pantyhose (or whatever it was), and had instead gratified yourself with non-CDing stimuli, you likely would not be a CDer today.

[Leslie Langford]

...Are you familiar with the chemical reactions that occur in the brain through the process of learning, or the process of conditioning through reward? The more you engage in an activity, especially if it is pleasurable, the more synapses are connected through the release of neurotransmitters, and you effectively end up rewiring your brain. If you had not engaged in the pleasurable sexual release from wearing pantyhose (or whatever it was), and had instead gratified yourself with non-CDing stimuli, you likely would not be a CDer today...

...and this is likely the rationale that the proponents of "Conversion Therapy" fall back on to support their theories, and to justify that approach as a way of "curing" homosexuality and transgenderism...concepts that have largely been discredited among the medical community save for a few hold-outs still clinging to these out-dated views.

We here all know how well conversion therapy works - NOT! - how insidious the "pink fog" is, what a non-starter the "purge, re-buy, purge" cycle is despite the best of intentions sometimes, and how our fundamental need to crossdress may be dormant from time to time but invariably re-surfaces etc., etc.

I am surprised by what you have expressed here, Reine. I would have thought from all your past posts and otherwise spot-on observations on most other aspects of the crossdressing pathology that you were more in tune with the CD community to even allude to the fact that such a thing might be a viable option.

[ellbee]

All over the world? I can google "women wearing ties" and the algorithm will turn up lots of photographs. But around me every day? Nope.

And yet, if you asked *others* who just happen to be in or around the environments of military, education, corporate, fashion, entertainment, aviation, restaurants, etc., theirs will be quite a different answer. ;)



...these women are most definitely not trying to portray themselves as men, even if one of them was wearing a tie. :)

Just as every CD'er is most definitely not trying to portray themselves as a woman.



Are you familiar with the chemical reactions that occur in the brain through the process of learning, or the process of conditioning through reward? The more you engage in an activity, especially if it is pleasurable, the more synapses are connected through the release of neurotransmitters, and you effectively end up rewiring your brain. If you had not engaged in the pleasurable sexual release from wearing pantyhose (or whatever it was), and had instead gratified yourself with non-CDing stimuli, you likely would not be a CDer today.

I'm curious: How do you explain all the boys who *did* CD when they were younger, but do *not* as adults?

And do you believe that a CD'ing adult can re-wire their brain so they no longer CD?

[Lana Mae]

Reine. I do not believe you said that! Lana Mae

[Nikki.]

uh yeah, I wore pantyhose quite a bit from 5-11 years old, and never had a "pleasurable sexual release" during those years.

[ellbee]

Nikki,

I already know how she'll answer that one (if she chooses). And part of me agrees, and part of me doesn't.

Of course, even then, I still want to know *how & why* a young boy even gets to that point, to begin with (because not every kid does) -- *and* why for some it's only a temporary phase, and for others it's life-long.



Anyway, where is the "popcorn" emoticon?? :laughing:

[Nikki.]

I'll guess something along the lines of: there was some positive feedback loop or pleasure I received from doing so that may or may not have been sexual, regardless of a "release".

my own guess as to the why is that something went askew with the gender mapping of my brain, since for me it's a deeper ID and personality thang, persistent my entire life. Maybe the abnormally high estrogen levels en utero theory, since I also fail the finger length test. I kinda don't really care why anymore.

[ReineD]

...and this is likely the rationale that the proponents of "Conversion Therapy" fall back on to support their theories

… and they’ve been proven wrong. Conversion therapy doesn’t work and any attempt at brainwashing is harmful. And why would someone not want to be homosexual or transgender, if they are happy.




I'm curious: How do you explain all the boys who *did* CD when they were younger, but do *not* as adults?

You mean as children? Maybe they didn’t enforce their own behaviors through sexual gratification as teenagers? Maybe they found something else they liked better? Might the psychological payload from the CDing have decreased for them for reasons too varied to get into in this thread, or in fact in just a few paragraphs?




And do you believe that a CD'ing adult can re-wire their brain so they no longer CD?

It happens all the time. My own SO is an example. The CDing reached a peak some years ago and has since abated. I’ve read the same thing in countless posts here. There are some years of intense CDing and thinking about it to the point where, if people go out like my SO on a regular basis and don’t have their freedom to do so constrained in any way, it eventually loses its luster. My SO will always CD, but where it used to take up a lot of head space and time, now the CDing is equal to or less in terms of priorities than other interests in his life. He has had months and months of not even thinking about it, which was not the case years ago.

I don’t think my SO will ever stop CDing though, but he tells me differently. He told me last year that he can’t see himself dressing as he ages. Also, look at the membership in this forum. There have been tens of thousands of people who joined here over the years and who are no longer here. Did they all transition? No. Do they still CD with the same degree of intensity or frequency as they did when they were members, except they just don’t bother to come here anymore? Maybe, or maybe they’re like my SO and the need to CD is abating or has ended except for just occasionally.



Reine. I do not believe you said that! Lana Mae

Lana Mae, can you expand? What do you think I said and what does it mean for you. If you think that I imply it is impossible to have a gender identity that doesn’t match one’s body, this is not what I said at all. I simply said that when a person describes the crossdressing in terms of pantyhose, shaved legs, lingerie, short skirts, taboo, etc, it is or was rooted in sexual preference.



uh yeah, I wore pantyhose quite a bit from 5-11 years old, and never had a "pleasurable sexual release" during those years.

Of course 5-10 year old bodies don’t have the ability to do what they will during puberty (although some people here said they have masturbated earlier than puberty). But if you’re familiar with childhood sexual development (http://nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/caring/sexualdevelopmentandbehavior.pdf) (or have a look at this link (http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/saam_2013_an-overview-of-healthy-childhood-sexual-development.pdf)), sexual awareness or the sense of "this feels good" begins as early as 3-4 years old. You’ve seen posts from members who say they experienced a thrill when they first wore their mother’s slips, as young as 4-5. It felt good, and so they continued to seek the experience, which was later reinforced through sexual gratification when they were old enough. The CDing eventually becomes part of who you are. Everything we do throughout our lives becomes part of who we are and if we continue to reinforce it with a certain stimuli, this will set it for life … which no one can undo, nor should it be undone. It just is what it is.

If anyone is interested in the neurobiolory of learning and memory, please do read up on it. You will see that I am not saying anything that is not common knowledge.




Of course, even then, I still want to know *how & why* a young boy even gets to that point, to begin with (because not every kid does) --

Right, but then not every adult gets into alternate sexual preferences. In almost every article about fetish I’ve read, explaining its origins, they say that it has its roots in childhood - there was some sort of sexual imprinting that would later chart the course for sexual preference. I’m not talking about being attracted to other human beings (male or female), but rather a sexual attraction to something else. And before I go further, I want to say that the word "fetish" has gotten a negative hue, as if it is somehow morally wrong to develop alternate sexual preferences (preferences that are not primarily another human being). On the contrary, I think many people have richly diverse sexual interests … except not all of them involve a preference for expressing the sexual identity of the opposite sex. And so because sexual identities are indeed tied to gender for most of us, it is easy to confuse a sexual preference for the expression of the opposite sex’s ID with gender ID, especially after the body ages and the brain has been rewired to find comfort or feelings of well-being in such expression.

And again, I am NOT saying there is no such thing as being born in a body that does not match one’s inner gender identity … just that for some people, I believe it does have sexual roots which has indeed rewired their brain to the point where they now find comfort and/or well-being in the expression of the opposite sex’s sexual ID.

[ellbee]

Well, now that we've learned that the only group who has been, is, and always will be oppressed, are women... And also that CD'ers are simply a bunch of sex-addicted fetishists who never would have turned out that way had they never had their first "hit" -- *and* can be cured, should they desire...


Can we get back to the OP, as well as post #25?

Thanks! :D



P.S. Reine, I think a new thread on that would be interesting, IMO. Maybe if I'm not too lazy, or if you or someone wants to start it. :)

[ReineD]

Well, now that we've learned that the only group who has been, is, and always will be oppressed, are women...

Who said that? Lots of racial, ethnic, and religious groups have been oppressed. But, this topic is about gender. And among men and women, women have been historically more oppressed by men than the opposite. In various times throughout history, women didn't run the state or the church so they couldn't vote, couldn't own property, couldn't have a voice in running things, didn't even progress in the business world as recently as the 1950s. Please tell me you acknowledge this.

And if you do acknowledge women's overarching roles historically (compared to men's roles), then maybe you will begin to understand the huge inroads towards emancipation that women made in the 20th century, which is now reflected in their fashion choices. Their fashion choices gives them well-deserved freedom to meet men equally in what was once considered a man's world. And it doesn't mean that women are men, want to be men, want to look like men, etc. It means they are now equal.

(And this has NOT happened all over the world. There are still many places on earth where women still have no power at all.)



And also that CD'ers are simply a bunch of sex-addicted fetishists who never would have turned out that way had they never had their first "hit" -- *and* can be cured, should they desire...

That's not at all what I said. But, if you choose to look at it that way, then it's your prerogative. Did you take the time to learn about the neurobiology of learning and memory?



Can we get back to the OP, as well as post #25?

OK, here's post #25:



Fashion changes, and so do peoples' attitudes. My only point was that - rightly or wrongly - in today's world it is perfectly O.K. for women to wear whatever they want even if it is "borrowed from the boys", whereas for a man to wear something that is perceived to be even remotely feminine is looked at askance.

And to this, we get back to my point in #9 which is, it's not as simple as making the assumption that if women can wear pants men should be able to wear skirts. The assumption doesn't work because the motives for women wearing pants and the history of it is different than men wearing skirts, which I outlined in post #9. People here don't want to hear this, they disagreed and I responded, and that's fine, but this doesn't change the fact that Leslie's assumption is a false dichotomy. Women wearing pants and men wearing skirts is not an even trade-off.


[EDIT]
Sometimes people like to shoot the messenger. I understand that CDers don't like how it is, I don't like it either. But I simply wrote about the reasons people don't accept men who wear skirts the same way they do women who wear pants.

[ellbee]

It's okay, Reine. Even though you'll never be a M2F CD'er, and hence never be able to *truly* understand, we all still love you! :huggles

And since you've spent countless hours researching all this, and have even minored in Crossdresser's Studies, we've made you an honorary CD'er! :yippee: ;)



I'd still like to explore the "origins" of dressing some more in a new thread at some point. :)

[ReineD]

Laura, was your compliment tinged with a bit of sarcasm? :)

I do read a lot, this is true. But to be honest, I along with other members in this forum (including some of the mods) do become impatient at times with the circular nature of this topic that ultimatly reaches the same conclusions: we cannot compare women wearing pants with men wearing skirts as if they have parity.



I'd still like to explore the "origins" of dressing some more in a new thread at some point. :)

Read about the neurobiology of learning and memory. When we reinforce something that initially makes us feel good, it becomes set in our brains.

If you're asking why some young boys feel thrilled when they first put on their mothers' slips, you can read about sexual imprinting.

But, you're taking this off topic. :p