Woman vs Female

[Jenny22]

When we dress prettily, do we do so with the sole intent of wanting to be simply a man in a dress? Or, do we want to present as a woman at times, as best we can? I think its the latter by our simply wanting the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women. To have such attributes does not require having a vagina, in my humble opinion. To me (even if sex with a male is involved), it follows that one may certainly want to have all of these attributes when en femme, and rightly so. When one says that he feels like a woman, he's not necessarily saying that he feels like a female! There's a significant difference, so shouldn't we refrain from being so hard on a CDer or TG for saying so? Just sayin', hmmmm.

[Cheryl T]

When dressed I am anything but a man in a dress.
I identify as a woman, carry myself accordingly and wish only to be seen, referred to and treated as a woman.

[Kate Simmons]

You have some purists who will tell you that you can't be this or that because you are this or that. I accept my friends for face value and take them at their word who they say they are. In the end the only ones we really have to be accountable to is ourselves. :battingeyelashes::)

[Jane G]

You can only ever be yourself. :daydreaming:

[Lucy23]

Hey Jenny, I may be in the minority here, but I am quite comfortable with being a man in a dress and would like to just wear it just like that without anyone questioning.

To be fully honest however, I don't understand why I want to wear a bra (I do love them) and give the impression of having a bust, and why I feel sexy and pretty when being dressed. So I'm wondering where does this leave me? Any thoughts?

[Lana Mae]

Lucy! Sometimes I just sit around the house without makeup or wig and feel feminine. So your next step is wig or makeup. These will make you feel even more feminine! You need to try it you just might like it. And no one says that it is wrong to be a man in a dress just it is nicer to have the wig and makeup! Hugs Lana Mae

[ReineD]

When we dress prettily, do we do so with the sole intent of wanting to be simply a man in a dress? Or, do we want to present as a woman at times, as best we can? I think its the latter by our simply wanting the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women.


The thing is, "dressing prettily" only describes the day-to-day motives of a small fraction of women. Most women dress for function. The way they present in their day-to-day lives (at home, at school, at work) is who they are.

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them, or would you rather look like the prettiest, most stylishly dressed. And if you did this, would you then put blinders on and not see the others. Would you tell yourself that the prettiest, most stylishly dressed defines "woman", while ignoring the rich diversity of womanhood in this picture.

https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhcs-women-staff/uhcs-women-staff-groupphoto-2015.jpg

They are ALL women.



To have such attributes does not require having a vagina, in my humble opinion. To me (even if sex with a male is involved), it follows that one may certainly want to have all of these attributes when en femme, and rightly so.

A vagina is beside the point when also considering trans-women. Vaginas don't define all women in my book. I know fully transitioned TSs who are women, who go about their daily lives living as women and who don't all have vaginas. One fully transitioned TS friend is a contractor and dresses in overalls and workboots during most of her day, with her hair pulled back, no makeup, and no jewelry because these things get in the way of her work.

No. The flaw in your argument is that you say, "one may want to have ALL of these attributes". What are all the attributes. In the picture above, some women have short hair. Some are overweight. Some are older. Some have square-ish bodies. Most dress for function and not style. Most don't wear makeup. Most don't have long, painted nails. Most aren't wearing jewelry. Some don't have the type of looks that would get them hired as models, nor would they even want this.

So you really are wanting only a select set of attributes: pretty, stylishly dressed, and with curves, "feminine" in the Mad Men (https://www.google.com/search?q=mad+men+women&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivyaqdqrPQAhUj2IMKHSg5CsgQ_AUICCgB&biw=1177&bih=780#imgrc=91AXaVZ0yV1-EM%3A) (or similar) traditional view of femininity. This does not describe being a contemporary woman. But it does describes what many CDers want.

Does this make sense?

I'm not putting you down for being a CDer. Of course you should feel free to dress prettily and stylishly, to express what femininity means to you. I fully support you. But to say this makes you a woman is simply false, when the reality is that most women don't adhere to your representation of what is a woman ... nor do they want to.

[Bonnie Chan]

I agree with Jenny here, because I do have the same feeling when dressing up. When I want to get sexually thrilled, I need to create an illusion and imagine I have become a real woman, having breasts, hips, nice long hair, being cute, etc. I don't care about the fact that I'm still a man in a dress, I just want to be in a fantasy for my own satisfaction just for that moment. So yeah, I would like to say I am a woman when dressing up just to fool myself and make myself happy.

- Bonnie

[Majella St Gerard]

I'm still trying to figure it out.

[Rachelakld]

I try to present as a woman, when my female personality has the control stick.
Sometimes we swap drivers, regardless of how the body is dressed.

[Dana44]

I try to be a woman when I am feminine. I do many of the attributes that women have and one of them is the feminine traits. I have to agree with Reine, Many of the women have different personalities and display their femininity in different ways.

[Zooey]

I try to be a woman when I am feminine. I do many of the attributes that women have and one of them is the feminine traits. I have to agree with Reine, Many of the women have different personalities and display their femininity in different ways.

Emphasis added by me in bold. The bolded section makes it pretty clear that you did not understand what Reine is talking about, so I'm not sure I can accept that you agree with her. To be clear, you're not the only one.

There's a pretty fundamental abuse of terminology happening here, which leads to a fundamental disconnect in discussion. "Woman" is a lived gender identity. "Feminine" is a set of expressed characteristics stereotypically associated with women, but that is the extent to which they are related. Presenting feminine does not make you a woman, and being a woman does not mean that you necessarily present feminine. In my experience, the feelings of "femininity" described here very rarely have much to do with the ways in which women relate to their femininity, or at best are a fraction of them.

If you are a male who is okay with being male and living largely as a man, then you are not a woman, regardless of how stereotypically feminine your presentation may be at times.

[Bonnie Chan]

It seems there's a lot of miscommunication going on here. Here's what I understand so far:


When one says that he feels like a woman, he's not necessarily saying that he feels like a female! There's a significant difference, so shouldn't we refrain from being so hard on a CDer or TG for saying so?

I believe what Jenny said here didn't mean anything along "dressing up or have some girl attributes and you'll be a woman". "Feeling like a woman" is different from *acknowledging* yourself as a woman. Some people really just want to get a feeling like woman as best as they can. And they should know they'll never be a woman (unless transition.) So let's stick with that.
So when people say they *feel* like a woman, we should not jump to the conclusion that they think they are woman. For example, when I dress up and done with my wig/make up/cloth/padding/breasts, I like to feel like a woman because that makes me happy. But I'm not saying I am a woman at that point. I still acknowledge that I'm a man in a dress in public eyes, but I do feel like a woman inside.

And why does it matter what's the real terminology of woman VS female? To me, they're the same, woman/female, both refers to being a girl. So let's just keep things simple. I'm pretty sure a lot of people here use these two words in a similar way. E.g. "I like to be female", "I want to be a woman", "I feel good being female". They're all the same. Pretty much people don't pay attention to the minor difference between woman and female terms.

I hope I get this right :)

PS. Btw, Zooey, it's pretty bold to state someone did not understand something. That could be considered as an insult easily. There's a lot better way to disagree with someone's opinion here such as "I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point." Just my 2 cents

- Bonnie

[Ozark]

I just like wearing women's clothes. I do feel softer and smoother when I wear.

[docrobbysherry]

I don't get the difference between "woman" and "female"? Whether it's how u feel or how u try to look. Sounds like "potahto", "potayto", to me.:straightface:

And, don't confuse female "traits" with female "appearance". I can appear to be a female quite well in my still pics. But, I don't do videos. One reason is I have no idea how to ACT feminine! In 2 recent videos I participated in, both directors had to tell me what to do and how to do it!

Finally, belaboring what Reine said, don't confuse thinking u present as a woman with feeling like one. Not only have I never thot I felt like a woman, I've never been one, so how would I know!?:battingeyelashes:

[Lorileah]

Pretty simple. Female is a genetic thing. Female has at least XX genotype. I will NEVER be female. I have no idea what a female feels like. I am a WOMAN (NB I am even working real hard to drop the "trans" tag that goes with that). I will never tell anyone I am female. I may present as a female but I am not. Maybe that's the medical part of me speaking.

Even before the whole TG thing for me, I worked hard not to say things like "I know how that feels." when it came to personal lives. I don't know how it feels to be you because I don't have the same life experiences. This was pointed out painfully clear when I wss in the Army and a good friend was having an issue due to their race. I said I know how you feel...he explained to me I didn't and never would. Words have meaning, especially in certain situations. Sympathy implies pity, empathy implies shared feelings. But we use them interchangeably. It's not intentional, it's how we have learned to do it. So technically people should say " I feel as I think a woman would feel (maybe even adding if I were a woman)." But most people get the implication here and roll with it...it's shorthand.

Many here, in my opinion, tend to place male feelings and desires into how they feel a woman should act or feel.

[Zooey]

Many here, in my opinion, tend to place male feelings and desires into how they feel a woman should act or feel.

Exactly!

I agree with pretty much everything Lori said, with the exception that I think there comes a point on HRT (and certainly following surgery) where "female*" - female with some caveats - becomes your effective medical sex in most ways that matter.

[Bonnie Chan]

Hmm.. I'm confused. What does "Feel like a woman" really mean? From my understanding, what Lori said seems to be assuming it means "I know what other woman feel in everyday life and I am feeling it too in all perspective"?
To me, when someone say "Feel like a woman" here it means more like "I don't really know how genetic woman would feel like, but I feel like I am a woman now, in my own imagination."

Which one is it then?

- Bonnie

[Lucy23]

Lucy! Sometimes I just sit around the house without makeup or wig and feel feminine. So your next step is wig or makeup. These will make you feel even more feminine! You need to try it you just might like it. And no one says that it is wrong to be a man in a dress just it is nicer to have the wig and makeup! Hugs Lana Mae

I think I know what you mean, but I have to agree with what Reine and Lorileah have said. I don't have any idea how to feel like a woman or a female, for that matter. Nor do I want to either. As I have said in another thread, I would probably agree with a complete makeover including a wig, make-up and maybe forms, but I will still be a man underneath, and am quite certain I will consider myself as such even then.

Neither of my ex-girlfriends would dress like I do; what I like to wear is far cry from what they considered comfortable (I like the business look and skirts with high heels or ballet flats), every day clothes. I was drawn to their feminity, because of who they were, make-up and clothes notwithstanding.

[njcddresser]

When I first accepted that I was a crossdresser over 3 years ago, I thought at first that I was just a guy who liked wearing women clothes.

Since then, my feelings have now evolved where feminine attributes and desires now make up a big part of who I am. Do I feel like I'm a woman. Sometimes.

I have no desire to ever transition or to live as a woman but am very happy that this is the person who I am and wouldn't change a thing.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jenny:hugs:, When I dress up I always try to present as a lady looking as great as I can

Knowing full well that I will always just be a guy under all the trimmings.

Having the best of both worlds is what it's all about for me...:daydreaming:...

[Ally 2112]

I just want to be free in my thoughts to be who i want to be when i dress .I try not to complicate it any more than i have to these days

[Sally24]

If you are a male who is okay with being male and living largely as a man, then you are not a woman, regardless of how stereotypically feminine your presentation may be at times.

Depending on how one defines the "okay with being a male" part, this is just one more way of saying that you are not trans. I have to state that only YOU can define whether you are TG, TS, Trans, Female or Male. For anyone else to say you are NOT is part of the divisive attitude we should all avoid.

[DIANEF]

I'm a 'man in a dress' when CDing, actually it's a bit more than that but I don't think I've suddenly turned into something else. I just want to look like a GG and wear what a GG wears. If I did want to use any other label for myself that would be my choice, I wouldn't seek or even want ANYONE elses opinion or approval.

[CarlaWestin]

I think the ultimate goal is to present and pass as a female but, I'm still just a man. But, I'm enjoying the female experience. At least my interpretation of it.

[CONSUELO]

I'm not a woman even when dressed and I don't have female characteristics. I'm just a happy fetishistic transvestite who does her best to look as feminine as possible for the fun of it and also for the emotional comfort it provides me. I have no illusions that what I am presenting is any more than a poor facsimile of some aspects of womankind.

[Lacy PJs]

There are still a lot of us who dress simply because of the feeling of the clothing itself. However, having said that, I tend to be a bit more mellow and relaxed when dressed. But "being a woman" or "womanly," no, I can't say that is my motivation.

Lacy PJs

[MissTee]

I offer up the thought that perhaps I have from birth synaptical coding in my brain that compels me to dress. A part of responding to that is addressing the tactile elements of touch, sight, and smell. For me then, creating and expressing a feminine veneer compliments my inner feelings and needs. Likewise, it allows me to share on the outside what I feel on the inside at times.

None of that makes me a girl or changes anything biological. I get that. I'm no expert and don't really spend a lot of time trying to figure this out anymore. I've grown to accept it and be OK with myself.

[Zooey]

Depending on how one defines the "okay with being a male" part, this is just one more way of saying that you are not trans. I have to state that only YOU can define whether you are TG, TS, Trans, Female or Male. For anyone else to say you are NOT is part of the divisive attitude we should all avoid.

Alternatively, all of those words have actual definitions, which aren't predicated on your feelings... Without HRT, I was male no matter how I felt about it. Medically, with the exception of reproductively, my body is more female than male at this point, so my doctors treat me that way. If you're a natal male comfortable living as male/a man, that makes you a cis man - not trans. "TG" has lost it's meaning; gender non-conformance is not gender-identity. Woman is a lived gender identity, defined by a matrix of biological and sociological factors. Prior to actually living as a woman, I was definitely trans, but I somewhat regret claiming to BE a woman at that point. Life is a harsh teacher though, and my identity as a woman grows more developed every day.

We don't have to redefine words to talk honestly, openly, or compassionately about our issues.

[Jenny22]

Hey Jenny, I may be in the minority here, but I am quite comfortable with being a man in a dress and would like to just wear it just like that without anyone questioning.

To be fully honest however, I don't understand why I want to wear a bra (I do love them) and give the impression of having a bust, and why I feel sexy and pretty when being dressed. So I'm wondering where does this leave me? Any thoughts?

Your being sexy and pretty is a woman's feeling, not a mans. Your wearing a bra is to be more womanly. You can bet that you are more than just being a man wearing a dress. Grin

- - - Updated - - -


The thing is, "dressing prettily" only describes the day-to-day motives of a small fraction of women. Most women dress for function. The way they present in their day-to-day lives (at home, at school, at work) is who they are.

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them, or would you rather look like the prettiest, most stylishly dressed. And if you did this, would you then put blinders on and not see the others. Would you tell yourself that the prettiest, most stylishly dressed defines "woman", while ignoring the rich diversity of womanhood in this picture.

https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhcs-women-staff/uhcs-women-staff-groupphoto-2015.jpg

They are ALL women.



A vagina is beside the point when also considering trans-women. Vaginas don't define all women in my book. I know fully transitioned TSs who are women, who go about their daily lives living as women and who don't all have vaginas. One fully transitioned TS friend is a contractor and dresses in overalls and workboots during most of her day, with her hair pulled back, no makeup, and no jewelry because these things get in the way of her work.

No. The flaw in your argument is that you say, "one may want to have ALL of these attributes". What are all the attributes. In the picture above, some women have short hair. Some are overweight. Some are older. Some have square-ish bodies. Most dress for function and not style. Most don't wear makeup. Most don't have long, painted nails. Most aren't wearing jewelry. Some don't have the type of looks that would get them hired as models, nor would they even want this.

So you really are wanting only a select set of attributes: pretty, stylishly dressed, and with curves, "feminine" in the Mad Men (https://www.google.com/search?q=mad+men+women&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivyaqdqrPQAhUj2IMKHSg5CsgQ_AUICCgB&biw=1177&bih=780#imgrc=91AXaVZ0yV1-EM%3A) (or similar) traditional view of femininity. This does not describe being a contemporary woman. But it does describes what many CDers want.

Does this make sense?

I'm not putting you down for being a CDer. Of course you should feel free to dress prettily and stylishly, to express what femininity means to you. I fully support you. But to say this makes you a woman is simply false, when the reality is that most women don't adhere to your representation of what is a woman ... nor do they want to.

Thanks for your well reasoned comments, Reine. However one dresses and presents, M2F or F2M, was not my main point, which was: don't knock a CD or TG who says he feels like a woman when that's impossible, because he's not a female.

[Megan G]

. Woman is a lived gender identity, defined by a matrix of biological and sociological factors..

^^This^^ ☺️

I cannot say it any better than Zooey has or the comments that Lori and Reine have already made but will definitely echo their statements.....

Having the feeling of dressing pretty, wearing a bra or anything else associated does not give you a feeling of being a woman. That is just clothing and being a woman runs much much much deeper than what you are wearing. It is a lived experience that until you actually go live it you will never understand.

[ShyDeanna]

What a wide range of opinions here. If I felt like a man when I put on women's clothes then I probably wouldn't risk it or waste my time. Putting these clothes on transforms me to an image of something that I am not. It gives me the perception of being a woman on "her" best day with a nice dress, heels, shaved legs, makeup, etc. but yes, just a man with a penis and male voice and identity underneath. When I dress up I feel feminine yet I know I am not a female or woman by definition. These are an exploration of emotions, urges, and desires and our motivations are different for each of us so none of us are right and none of us are wrong. To argue with each other and say that none of us know what it feels, etc. is purely subjective. I use a female name here essentially as an extension of this personality I have when I dress as a woman, but if I felt like a man I wouldn't bother with that either.

[Jenny22]

I had no idea my post would bring so many, varied responses! To try to calm the waters that I had apparently roiled a bit, my main point was to NOT knock a person, M2F or TG, for 'feeling' like a woman because that would be impossible since he is not a FEMALE. Whew! I hope this helps to clarify my OP.

[Curiouser&Curiouser]

My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?" I obviously haven't been able to give a satisfactory answer as she keeps asking this, but it does get to some of the core issues for the two of us - what is femininity, what does it mean to be a woman, and where am I in all of this?

I find that the deeper my exploration gets - granted, I'm really not far into it - that I'm discovering for myself that the important parts of being a woman to me have always been here. Emotional sensitivity and vulnerability, need for intimacy over sexuality, attraction to fashion, and a sense that these things do not make one weaker. Of course, these are my definitions, and my wife (a.k.a. the most important woman in history IMO) doesn't really conform to them, but that's where I'm at. In those ways I think I'm pretty evolved as a woman. However, in other ways I'm completely immature - I play dress-up like a little girl, I've never been treated like I'm less or objectified primarily because of my gender, I have not lived and especially grown up in a chauvinistic society as a female and had to fight to establish my equality. Some of these things will never change, and some will take a long time to change, but I certainly cannot lay claim to a woman's experience and troubles now.

The best I can do is confess my ignorance about matters of women and profess my earnest desire to know about myself and others, then try to be understanding when my desires offend others. I desire for my outside to match what's inside, which I can't really find a great definition for (woman, trans, gender-queer?), and thank you for your patience while I figure out what that is.

- Sandra

[Lucy23]

Your being sexy and pretty is a woman's feeling, not a mans. Your wearing a bra is to be more womanly.You can bet that you are more than just being a man wearing a dress.
I want to ask you why do you associate the feeling of being sexy and pretty solely with women? I get that the society says that women want to be desired etc. (GGs, would you care to shed some light on this?), but why a man (whether or not a crossdresser) cannot feel sexy and pretty, or better yet, want it? Is it not manly to admit so? It's as if someone decided what a man is supposed to want. Or am I misinterpreting words here?

Granted, I wouldn't say I feel sexy in my male clothes, all I can do is acknowledge I like the look and that's it. But I seriously doubt men would cherish feeling undesired in any way. Correct me if I'm wrong please.


My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?"
This. I clearly do not need a bra, yet I want to wear one...

[TinaMc]

I kind of think that it's just nice to be able to wear some pretty clothes and look pretty. I don't know how to explain it, but when I do so I feel like I am accessing a different part of me to the point where I feel like the yin to my usual yang. The anima to my usual animus. It is essential and part of me. I'm absolutely not saying I have a claim on womanhood, or that it gives me an understanding of what it's like to be a woman or a female. TBH, I think only natal women can really make that claim. It's just that it's much more than me being a bloke who likes to wear a frock every now and then, there is a considerable part of me that is the opposite of masculine, and that feels like it needs to be expressed.

[Lorileah]

So, would any (all?) of you wear the clothing just to be attractive even if it wasn't associated with women? You say you dress because you want to feel pretty. OK, we accept that...however I find a tuxedo to be very attractive, many men is suits are attractive. In the 70's a lot of us wore bright colors and materials that were soft and shimmery. IF, tomorrow, those came back in style would you wear them? What if the edict came down that it was very masculine to wear a dress? Change your mind?

[Teresa]

Jenny,
If it was just wanting to be a man in a dress, I personally wouldn't shave my body parts or have the need to be out and about. I look at it as satisfying an inner need, the female side of me wants to be accepted as a genuine person , so it's not an act of dressing up the male part of me to try and shock or upset people .

I'm not going to say I'm a passable woman because I'm not a GG, the nicest compliment I've had from two ladies who run a bridal shop was I make a convincing woman, I try and dress my body with the right style to to make the most of my natural shape to achieve that. That's the enjoyable part and I feel so comfortable presenting myself in that way.

Lorileah,
To take your point about telling people you understand when in fact you can't , as your quoted example.

This is exactly how I feel with people like my sister in law, but not with understanding and acceptance angle but the lack of it. Receiving the strange answers and odd looks was the first time it became evident that women do no have that trait so will never understand but sadly they condemn as well out of ignorance. If someone doesn't have that trait or isn't wired in the same way they can never put themselves in the same situation.

As male CDers we can never know what it's like to be a woman all we can do is discover the degrees of what it's like to to feel female, to some of us it is a real but hidden part of us and dressing the male part doesn't do it for many of us.

[Lana Mae]

Lorileah, to honestly answer your question. I dress to satisfy Lana Mae(my feminine side). Wearing feminine clothing satisfies my feminine need. That said, it could be in jeans and a tee shirt. I do not like suits or tuxedos at all even in male mode!! The 70's are dead and gone! If I am dressing for my feminine side and need and dresses were declared masculine then I guess I would not wear them! Honestly! Hugs Lana Mae

[sometimes_miss]

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them
Yes. Several of them, in fact. What you forget (as I guess most women do) is that WE have to overcome our masculine bodies in order to help ourselves feel feminine. YOU and all those other women, do not. Which is why so many of us dress 'over the top' so much. In particular, the women second from the left, and third from the right. Added problem is, we can only see 8 of the 17 women in that picture clearly. But I understand why you wrote what you did. Hope you can understand why I did.


My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?"
then

However, in other ways I'm completely immature - I play dress-up like a little girl
And there's your answer. I don't know if she'll accept it, but it IS an answer to why you are doing it. People like trying on other's roles (and in some cases, clothes for those roles, witness all the re-enactment guys at those weekend war retreats and veterans places where they periodically go back to their soldier outfits that they haven't worn in 50 years). Perhaps not permanently, but we do like to continue to do that through our lives. Whether just for fun, or to feel better about ourselves.


Having the feeling of dressing pretty, wearing a bra or anything else associated does not give you a feeling of being a woman. That is just clothing and being a woman runs much much much deeper than what you are wearing. It is a lived experience that until you actually go live it you will never understand.
As we will never get to 'live it', that experience will forever remain an enigma to us. So all we have, is to grasp at the best information and experience that we CAN have. So we dress up, make up, wear heels, nail polish, and accessorize as best we can, and try to imagine the rest, based on what we know.
There is no better option for us.

[Zooey]

What you forget (as I guess most women do) is that WE have to overcome our masculine bodies in order to help ourselves feel feminine. YOU and all those other women, do not. Which is why so many of us dress 'over the top' so much.

I'm sorry, but IMO, that's a poor justification and just highlights the point. Wearing clothes that flatter your body type has absolutely nothing to do with wearing over-the-top stereotypically feminine and frilly clothing. If that's what gives you a sense of "femininity" then fine, but the point is that it's a male/men-oriented definition of the word. It's not how women feel it.

There are women of all shapes and sizes. Between being overweight and born male, I do not have the ideal body shape I wish I did. Neither do the vast majority of women - cis or trans. We deal with it by making good choices in how our clothes are cut, not by seeing how many stereotypical male fantasy items we can cram into our outfit.

Wear what you want, and feel what you want when you do, but what many people are doing here is NOT trying to dress or feel like women. They're trying to look and feel how men fantasize that women should look and feel.

[Fiona123]

I would like to be more than a man in a dress. When I get to dress (not often enough!) I want to be, look and feel as a woman. I have a long way to go though.🌺

[Bonnie Chan]

I feel like this thread is going off far beyond the main topic that Jenny is trying to say:


my main point was to NOT knock a person, M2F or TG, for 'feeling' like a woman because that would be impossible since he is not a FEMALE. Whew! I hope this helps to clarify my OP.

I've seen a few (or a lot?) of comments from some people trying to *educate* people about what being a woman really feels like. People just want to express their emotion that they feel like a woman when CD, and that's it. Why do we have to make things more complicated for them?

Let's say for comparison, what if I say "I feel like a cat" because I just want to express my emotion of being sleepy and lazy all the time like a typical cat? Or, "I feel like a hulk" because I want to express that I feel super strong now. These don't necessarily mean I know how a real cat feel every day, or how Mr.Hulk might feel depressed from being not a normal person. It is just an expression.

So, come back to Jenny's main point. Let's try not to talk people down when they say they feel like a woman. Again, it IS just an expression, nothing more than that. So there's no point in trying to explain the whole analogy of how being a woman every day feels like.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

People just want to express their emotion that they feel like a woman when CD, and that's it. Why do we have to make things more complicated for them?

The issue is that, to paraphrase the great Montoya, that word does not mean what they think it means, or at least want it to mean. They do not actually want to feel like women, even if they could.

It would be much simpler if people would just say they want to look and/or feel "feminine" or "sexy", rather than insisting upon how much they become or feel like women when dressed, and then arguing with women here who respond with "Well, actually..."

[Bonnie Chan]

Well then, can you say the same thing with "I feel like a cat" expression? If what you said holds true, then it means any expression like "I feel like ..." would always mean I need to get into their shoes and know how that feels everyday to be able to say that?
No, I don't think that's how it works. This expression is used just to express ones feel like some aspect of something. And to that end, most people who say "I feel like a woman" probably just want to express that they feel so feminine like a typical woman. They are not saying they feel all the trouble woman has been going through in the past. It's a different thing.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

"that they feel so feminine like a typical woman"

But they don't, and that is the point. They don't know how a typical women feels femininity; the descriptions of how they relate to it make that pretty clear. They know how men perceive femininity, and they feel THAT.

And, btw, if somebody said to me "I feel like a cat", I would ask them what in the heck they mean too.

[Zooey]

It's a question of subsets of experience, and I would never claim to know about the experience of menstruation, growing up with the fear of getting pregnant, or the "totality of the cis female experience". There are a lot of things about the experience of living as a woman that I am INTIMATELY familiar with however. The vast majority of my women friends are cis, and somehow we have considerable overlap in our experiences and our views of the world.

I'm telling you that when the men here describe their experiences of being or feeling like a woman, there is next to no overlap. That's all.

[Bonnie Chan]

"that they feel so feminine like a typical woman"

But they don't, and that is the point. They don't know how a typical women feels femininity; the descriptions of how they relate to it make that pretty clear. They know how men perceive femininity, and they feel THAT.

And, btw, if somebody said to me "I feel like a cat", I would ask them what in the heck they mean too.

And, how do you know people don't know how feminine feels like? I'd bring up what Lori had said before. You NEVER know how other people really feel, so please stop saying they don't really know what they feel, because you don't know how they feel too. And who knows, some people may or may not know how exactly *your* true feminine feels like.

To me though, by definition, "femininity" means anything that looks pretty, girly, mostly anything associated to what typical attractive woman would have. Now, pretty/girly/beautiful is all subjective to each own person, so by that, the definition of "femininity" will also vary depending on the said person too.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

LOL. Clearly there is a fundamental difference in perspective here that we're not going to get past, because your response asking me how I know is chock full of yet more of the stuff that makes it so clear.

Enjoy Mars everybody... I'm gonna go read a book back home on Venus.

[Bonnie Chan]

Yes, clearly you don't seem to try to understand or at least be considerate of how other people would feel, or grasp any of the possibilities that things could turn out the other way you thought it would be.
I myself will never try to absolutely say something is something unless it is a *fact*. What you're saying that a male will never really be able to feel as feminine as a woman is really just your own opinion, unless someone can prove it scientifically. (Now that would be up to the psychologists I guess.) But you said it like it is a fact, which is plainly wrong and could be confusing/discouraging other people here.

To make another comparison, this is like you say "You will never be a pilot because you are female". It's quite discouraging to people who really want to do something and it's not totally impossible. Of course if there's a fact that makes it impossible then it'd be better to let them know ahead to not waste their time.

In a meanwhile, please do enjoy your time on Venus. I'll be enjoying sunshine on Earth :)

- Bonnie

[sometimes_miss]

There are a lot of things about the experience of living as a woman that I am INTIMATELY familiar with however.
AND a lot of things that you're NOT.

The vast majority of my women friends are cis, and somehow we have considerable overlap in our experiences and our views of the world.
When in the company of others, I spend about 90% of my time with women. Despite our shared experiences, as well as 'views of the world', I don't pretend to be able to somehow magically 'know' what it feels like to be them. I get it; you think you know better than all of us, do. Where oh where have I heard all that before......

[Bonnie Chan]

Does spending time with my SO count as spending time with woman? If so, then I'd say I spend 90% of the time with woman and have a lot of shared experience too :) Especially with her knowing me CD, I can even spend more time shopping with her and able to discuss girl things.

- Bonnie

[Teresa]

It really doesn't matter what planet we decide to reside on, no one can know exactly what is in another persons head, it's wrong to tell them they are wrong when they know how they feel inside. It is not all about living a fantasy , sometimes it might lead to it with simply to have some fun.

Look at the other way women can't and won't understand what makes a CDer do what he does, they may not like it but whatever they think or say isn't going to change that.
What some of us feel is our version of dressing, looking and possibly living as a female, because our parts aren't all consistent with how we feel it's wrong to say what our feelings are like when expressing a female side.

[Sally24]

Alternatively, all of those words have actual definitions, which aren't predicated on your feelings... Without HRT, I was male no matter how I felt about it. Medically, with the exception of reproductively, my body is more female than male at this point, so my doctors treat me that way. If you're a natal male comfortable living as male/a man, that makes you a cis man - not trans. "TG" has lost it's meaning; gender non-conformance is not gender-identity. Woman is a lived gender identity, defined by a matrix of biological and sociological factors. Prior to actually living as a woman, I was definitely trans, but I somewhat regret claiming to BE a woman at that point. Life is a harsh teacher though, and my identity as a woman grows more developed every day.

We don't have to redefine words to talk honestly, openly, or compassionately about our issues.

But redefine is exactly what you are doing. You denigrate the accepted use of TG as being meaningless. Then say that "woman" is a lived gender identity. That is just another way to redefine the term to exclude others that aren't full time, part time, or whatever your personal cut off is. I am perfectly fine with you making your own definition of terms when applied to yourself. When you use those personal definitions to exclude others that is anything but honest or compassionate discussion. I personally am gender fluid in that I'm am comfortable as presenting as both male or female. If I had to choose only one gender then that would be female. Since I don't have to choose, that does not make me any less trans then you or others. The prevailing definitions of most of those gender terms are not in line with your usage. And that ultimately leads to the "not trans enough" attitude that I see far too often. Does HRT, or breasts, or bottom surgery make you trans enough? How about FFS or years spent transitioned and socialized? Others would exclude you because you will always have Y chromosomes. I spend my time defining who I am and how I live my life and trust that I am the only one who can do that!

[Megan G]

But redefine is exactly what you are doing. You denigrate the accepted use of TG as being meaningless.

The problem is the word "Transgender" has lost all its meaning. If you ask a CIS person who has no knowledge of the trans community they will tell you that it means people who transition.. ie transsexuals. I have seen many people on here identity as TG and not ,TS,cd, gf,NB ect... So in essence it has lost its meaning due to misuse...

I met with my local member of parliament 4-5 months ago and we were talking about a bill that was introduced to extend human rights protections to trans people. She got on the topic of bathrooms and had mentioned that she felt that transgender people should be able to use the bathroom that they identity with. So long story short I explained to her what the true meaning of transgender was (umbrella term) and that by saying that she was implying that she was ok with men who dressed up occasionally (some for sexual reasons) using that same washroom and suddenly her tone changed. She thought transgender meant people who have (or are in the process) changed sex...

So there is just one example of how the word has been misused and not fully understood..


Yes, clearly you don't seem to try to understand or at least be considerate of how other people would feel

Actually I find the exact opposite..

On an online forum the only thing that we have to be able to communicate with is words than the definitions are extremely important. If someone said "When I dress up I feel sexy, I feel pretty, I feel feminine" than no one would have batted an eye at it.... becuase you are talking about an emotion that yes women sometimes feel when the need comes to dress up. Those are valid emotions that women feel..

But by saying you feel like a woman is talking about an innate gender identity and we feel that regardless of what we are wearing.....I feel like a woman when I am out in the garden covered in dirt wearing old male sweatpants and Tshirt...

[TinaMc]

If transgender is a meaningless term, cisgender is beyond meaningless, given that it is defined solely as "not transgender".

[Zooey]

Tina, I agree. Since TG has lost its meaning, please consider any usages of "cisgender" in any of my posts to mean, "not suffering from diagnosable gender dysphoria with an associated need to transition", which is a definition inclusive of the vast majority of the people here.

It does not include non-binary people who need to and do transition to living full-time as an ambiguous gender, as I believe those who do so are reasonably suffering from gender dysphoria to a point which affects their normal lives and are therefore reasonably described as - at least - not cisgender. On this forum, from what I can tell this group is made up of about 3-4 people, most of whom are in the NB forum (it is a small minority of that group).

[Jenny22]

Good gollies Miss Mollies! So far, there have been 1,260 reads and 57 responses. Each of you have made excellent points. Thanks for that. But to reiterate my reason for posting... Please don't tell any male that he can NOT feel like a woman when dressed, because he is NOT a female. Just let him "feel" the way he wants to and expresses.

[Lorileah]

Best quote ever on this forum from years ago "Just because you put frosting on your head, doesn't make you a cupcake."

[Jenny22]

True, not a cis-cupcake, but you might feel like one, huh. Sorry, Lorileah, I couldn't resist ... lol

[Bonnie Chan]

Yes, clearly you don't seem to try to understand or at least be considerate of how other people would feel


Actually I find the exact opposite..


Eh, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by you find the opposite. I only talked about how Zooey seems to be not trying to understand what other people feel and only focus on herself. And that is causing a miscommunication that's going on now.



But by saying you feel like a woman is talking about an innate gender identity and we feel that regardless of what we are wearing.....I feel like a woman when I am out in the garden covered in dirt wearing old male sweatpants and Tshirt...

IMO, "feeling like a woman" doesn't necessarily talk about your innate gender identity. Again, I'm saying that it's just an expression to say how one feels like at that moment. For example, if you have long hair (for no CD reason), you may make a joke with your friend saying "I feel like a woman now". How about that statement? Does it mean one is expressing their gender identity? In this case, no. One just wants to make a joke that "I can look like a woman now because of my long hair, but I don't mean I am a woman just because of this".

Seriously, I think we are taking the "feel like a woman" too seriously (no pun intended :) ).

- Bonnie

[Sally24]

The problem is the word "Transgender" has lost all its meaning due to misuse...

I met with my local member of parliament 4-5 months ago and we were talking about a bill that was introduced to extend human rights protections to trans people. She got on the topic of bathrooms and had mentioned that she felt that transgender people should be able to use the bathroom that they identity with. So long story short I explained to her what the true meaning of transgender was (umbrella term) and that by saying that she was implying that she was ok with men who dressed up occasionally (some for sexual reasons) using that same washroom and suddenly her tone changed.


Because some people do not understand the term does not show that it has lost all meaning. That's an education problem.

And the majority, at least in the past, of trans people who lobbied for the laws in New England were not full time transitioned people. We were CD's and other Transgender people. There were very few fully transitioned men and women who lobbied because they had no protections until we got those laws on the books. I fully support full access to public accommodations by ALL transgender peoples. If you start drawing lines there it always ends with someone wanting you to prove that you've had "the surgery".

[Curiouser&Curiouser]

I find the "feeling like a woman" question interesting. In my therapy session last week I was asked if I felt like a woman when I went out in public for the first time. In dressing at home I never felt like a woman, I just felt feminine, and suddenly more complete. So, when she asked me this question I felt like there was no way I could make claim to feeling like a woman. However, when I went back out to group this week I paid more attention to that question and since I was being accepted by others in Trans form I really in many ways felt like a woman several times that night. There's still no question I'm a guy, and even when trying to pass I'm still very self-conscious, but that feeling was there.

That said, I still acknowledge my ignorance about what feeling like a woman actually is.

- Sandra

[Lauren Richards]

Jenny,
Interesting conversation you have sparked here. Nice to see a broad (not a gender specific pun intended.. ) range of ideas. Appears to me to be a sliding scale, and where you land is up to your own experience and opportunity. Had a conversation with a man today who was talking about an argument he had last night with his wife, and we somehow got into the "traditional" roles of male and female. He likes to build things in his shop (and last night ignored is wife a bit too long), but also likes to cook and shop. His wife does not like to shop, however. Different ranges and activities please everyone differently. And it also seems that we change over time, and can be fluid in our thinking.

I think I'll let folks be who they want to be, and not worry too much about pinning labels. Labels are helpful when picking out a dress, but as we all know... not every size 16 (or 8 or 12 or 24) fits the same. Got to try it on, see how it feels. Same thing applies to how you live. I think..

Hope your quest, your journey, and your life are filled with joy... And a few dark chocolates along the way..

Lauren

[Becky Blue]

What does feeling or being a woman actually mean? There are behaviours and society norms that are more associated with one gender or another. But what about a Cis gendered 'normal' woman, who likes to dress in jeans and a t-shirt and doesn't particularly like dresses? What about a woman who loves football and prefers action movies? What about a career woman who will stop at nothing in her quest to get to the top? Are these woman any less female or less womanly than a stay at home mother? Of course not, my point is we are all people and we are all different.

I believe that gender is a continuum and not binary many of us (particularly on here) have many feminine aspects to our makeup.

I believe that that fact that i hate my body hair or that I feel so good with the swell of breasts or that I don't enjoy the company of 'the boys', are examples of many indications that I am closer to the female side in my head... what does that make me? Not a woman, but also not a man.

[IleneD]

WOW. A deep, deep thread. So much to cover here.
My take........
As my signature line suggests, there IS a woman inside of me. But I'm grounded enough in my own reality to understand SHE is not a real woman; nor do i believe I am a woman; nor do I think I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. None of that. It's more like the Spirit of a woman, the feelings I may imagine a woman to have or even the personality of women I like or the woman personality I imagine my femme side to be. I don't know if they're the real feelings of a real woman, because Ilene is not a REAL woman and never had those experiences first hand. It is Ilene's construct, this Woman inside me. How she came to be, who she is and any identity she holds remains a mystery (for most of us?), and too deep a subject to cover in one thread.

BUT.........
I understand rationally that Ilene is not a woman. She is me in women's clothing.

My informed views changed considerably during the Caitlyn Jenner drama. God Bless her (Caitlyn). Love her (him, Bruce). I have the most heartfelt sympathy and empathy for the gender dilemma she suffered. I believe we've ALL experienced it to some degree; the anxiety of knowing you're different. I feel her pain. [Yet frankly, the whole publicly played out drama was a bit over-wrought, and in the end may have hurt the TG movement... I don't know.]

The one thing I really took away after thinking about it was how different are the lives of men who sincerely believe they are women (and in some cases genetically disposed, or hermaphrodites, etc.), and the lives of real girls/women. The two are not even comparable. [And please excuse me if I don't express this gracefully enough to suit real TG's. I'm with you, girls. Please.]

I went to one of my granddaughters dance recitals long ago. Loved it, especially watching the little girls. I really enjoy watching how young girls socialize with one another and older girls. A great thing to watch. BTW.... for the most part, BOYS can't do it. They don't do it; not that way.

It's not just the group/gender socialization that makes a difference. The Obvious once again dawned on me. I have daughters too, so I know. Each of those little girls will grow up (in general) physically smaller and weaker than male counterparts. They will live their approaching adult life as targets for bullies, sexual assault, rapists, muggers/criminals, etc. for that very reason. Easier prey.
Imagine (you as a guy) strolling though daily life, every day, with the idea parked in the back of your mind that a stranger can pick YOU out of a crowd to violently invade your body orifices at any moment. I never had some pimply 16 yr old lout try to rip off my bra in a heat. That's REAL life for REAL women. I imagine Bruce Jenner [Olympian] no matter how hot he looked in a dress ever had to fear about forceable entry of his male stature.



All these things women can do as part of their normal life cycle experience and function. No matter how hard I try; not matter how deeply I go into the depths of my own soul to find my spiritual inner Woman, I know I can never BE a woman. No matter how I may wish or pretend, I will never have the life experiences (yes the bad ones too). I am me (and that's a good thing even if Me is in a dress).
Maintain perspective.

[Lorna]

I feel almost an outsider when reading the many well-expressed and sensibly argued points here. This forum - this web site - includes the word "crossdresser" in its title and that's the key word for me. I have never worn a wig or used make-up; I don't possess any breast forms; I don't shave my body. Sadly, I've never been out dressed fully as a woman - though I have been "underdressed". That isn't to say I would not have liked to do any or all of those things but the opportunity hasn't arisen. I know I am not a woman and don't look like one. None of that really matters to me because my interest is in the clothing, the dressing. All I ever really wanted to know is what it feels like to wear (some of) the clothing worn by (some) women. The brackets are there because, for reasons I can't explain, I have no interest, for example, in wearing jeans or leggings or shorts, even if they are designed and cut for women. What I enjoy is experiencing what it feels like to be in a dress, to wear a bra, to wear tights or stockings, to wear shoes with high heels or platforms. Of course I don't know whether what it feels like to me is the same as it feels like to a woman: probably not, if only because my body is a different shape from that of most women. The bra, for example, can't feel the same because I don't have breasts. I don't suppose my girdles feel as they would on a woman because of the difference in the waist-hip ratio. In other words, I want to know what it feels like to wear those clothes and I believe I can get some idea of that - but it still will not be the same feeling that a woman gets.

It goes just a little further for me. As well as simply wearing the clothes I want to try to experience "doing things" while wearing them. Unfortunately I can't go as far as I would like - walking in a dress and heels across the park on a breezy day; getting in and out of a car in a smart, slim skirt; dashing through the rain hampered by heels and with wet stockings - and thousands of other every-day experiences. What I can do is feel what it's like to relax and watch TV in a dress with a silky slip beneath, covering legs in nylons held up with tight suspenders, feeling what it's like to have my waist held firmly in a girdle and my chest hugged by a bra. I can know what it's like to walk down the street wearing (under my male clothes) tights and a pantie girdle; to wait for, go up the stairs and sit on a bus in a suspender belt, stockings and bra. I can try different skirts, different tops, different dresses, different petticoats, different shoes with different heels, different bras - soft, underwired, long-line, lacy - different girdles, sheer tights, control-top tights, short skirts, long skirts, big skirts, straight skirts.....all these things in every combination. I think I have some idea what women's clothes feel like.....and just a little idea of how women might feel when they wear them. I will never feel like a woman.

[Zooey]

Here's the deal... If you all believe you understand how women feel, then go convince a doctor to get you on HRT. None of this mythical low-dose crap either - get your hormone levels female-normative. Transition. Start living full-time as a woman. Everywhere, all the time. Call me in a year or two to tell me how your perspective on how women feel hasn't changed, and how well you understood women all along.

You won't do it, of course, because you're not women, and even if you started, it would likely end up dangerously miserable for you. That's the smart decision, btw.

Cis women are born female. They become women. I was born transexual. I became a woman.

[Bonnie Chan]

Zooey, no one here ever said they know how woman feels. Please, do read it again, carefully, and you'll see for yourself that a lot of us already understand a significant difference between male and female and we will never understand it. I'd like to say, it does apply to you as well. You'll never know how the real woman who's born from birth feels like. They have more experiences as a woman than you. At most you can say you have more experiences as, by definition, a trans woman more than us and only you know how it really feels like. But you can never truly understand other genetic woman feels like because you've had no experiences as a girl from childhood, and so on.

I'll say it again as I said in my earlier post already, I believe most people here just want to express "I feel like a woman" because they think they feel like a woman from their own imagination. It does not mean they know how other real woman feel. No one ever claimed to know that so far I've read here.

- Bonnie

[ReineD]

I'll say it again as I said in my earlier post already, I believe most people here just want to express "I feel like a woman" because they think they feel like a woman from their own imagination.

Or maybe they want to feel as if they are feeling like women? Isn't the fantasy a deeply rooted part of the CDing?

[Bonnie Chan]

Reine, that's a good point, which is still a question I have whether what does "Feel like a woman" really mean. But I don't want us to jump to any one conclusion that it means one thing and not the other. Because that's what I see from what Zooey is saying recently.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

Bonnie, I take what people say here at face value, because all we have here are words.

My whole point is to get people to recognize what they're actually saying, and why it doesn't work in some cases. I also take people here at face value when they say hurtful, offensive, and/or regressive things about women in society. When you've got people saying some of those things about women, while simultaneously claiming to understand how women feel, you've got a pretty substantial problem. If they're saying what they mean, it's one kind of problem. If they're not saying what they actually mean, that's a problem too, albeit a different one.

Given that you've got a group of men here who routinely claim to want to be "more connected with their femininity" and talk about how well they understand women, you'd think they'd be less argumentative when women come in with the occasional "Well, actually...". This is not the only place where men presume to mansplain womanhood and femininity to women (it happens all the time), but given the common interests of most of the men here, it is one of the most simultaneously hilarious and infuriating.

[Bonnie Chan]

Yes, you have a point about someone may not truly know what they're saying actually means. But it could be the other way that someone may not know what others have said actually mean. In a communication world, that's a problem because a listener is getting a different perception of what speaker is truly conveying. BUT, who's wrong here? Both, speaker and listener. Speaker is wrong here because he/she can't convey the real message to listener. Listener is wrong here because he/she can't understand what speaker is trying to say.
What you said sounded like you blame on the speaker side only, which in this case, is mostly CD here. And listener is either CD/TS/woman here. And so to correct the miscommunication to make both sides on the same page, Both need to come to the middle-ground that each agree upon.

From what I've seen here, it seems most CDs understand the "I feel like a woman" said by other CD because we are more similar and get the same feeling and can relate to each other more.
However, it seems like anyone who identified themselves as woman seem to get it differently. So, if that's the case, this maybe something that a male should say differently to woman to make them understand better, or maybe a woman should come to understand what a male actually means by saying this.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

So, if I'm understanding you correctly Bonnie... You think that it's incumbent upon men to only talk about woman "their way" in the company of other men, but be more polite about it in front of women? Conversely, you think that it's incumbent upon women to step aside when men use poor language that all too often minimizes the value of our gender by reducing it to a set of physical sensations triggered by fabric because we should understand what they really mean?

Okay.

Weirdly, the men here seem to get pretty riled up when women start saying things about the oppression of women in our society that they feel might reduce men to dirty, violent, muscle-bound beasts. Don't they know that that's not what we really mean?

[Bonnie Chan]

Hmm.. not quite so, you seem to understand partially what I'm trying to say. Well, it seems by a male saying "Feel like a woman" implies offence and rude to you. I'm not sure why is that? Why don't you focus on the real intention of a male saying this. Please don't imply any bad meaning to this, that's not what many of us are trying to say. I think as long as we have a good intention of saying it, there should be nothing wrong.

And now, if you still insist this means bad to you, why would a male saying this to each other annoy you? It's just a matter of using a different language because it's easily understood. I kind of get your feeling if someone talk something bad about you behind your back and you know it you would feel frustrated. But, why don't you think they it's just a matter of different language and there's no bad intention of saying so?

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

When I was growing up, kids used the word "gay" to refer to literally anything they thought wasn't cool. Those kids, for the most part, did not hate gay people. Should gay people have been okay with it because "they didn't mean it in a bad way"?

No. That is not how offense works. The same is true of men reducing women to their exterior/aesthetic, either explicitly or implicitly. You don't get a perpetual free pass just because you "didn't mean it like that".

[lingerieLiz]

This is an interesting discussion, but I don't think it will solve anything or reach agreement. There is no way that we will agree to a single resolve because we all bring different experiences. This discussion is like talking experiences of race, creed, or nationality. I've traveled a lot and have had those discussions on several different continents. Even those with almost identical backgrounds don't agree. I do like the discussion though.

[Bonnie Chan]

lingerieLiz, I think we can at least try our best to understand each other. Yes there's no way for different people with different experiences to truly agree on something. But by talking more, we may come to find a shared experience that both side can relate with and understand each better.

Zooey, the "gay" example you brought up is different from "I feel like a woman". You brought a good example though that I can relate with, and that's a good start :) But, are you saying "I feel like a woman" is not cool and being used for bad things like "gay"? No, it's different. We are saying "I feel like a woman" just as an expression. If anything, it means very variably, from positive to negative. From the sound of your saying, I think you are thinking bad of "I feel like a woman" and finding it rude. Am I correct here? But what I'm saying is that it's all in your thought. No one here is saying "I feel like a woman", at least in forum here, not to imply something negative. It's more related to the feeling of being happy/excited/relaxed/aroused/accepted, which are more of positive things.


No. That is not how offense works. The same is true of men reducing women to their exterior/aesthetic, either explicitly or implicitly. You don't get a perpetual free pass just because you "didn't mean it like that".

No one here is reducing women to their exterior/aesthetic. We still love and understand our female SO. And yet we still "feel like a woman" sometimes, because it makes us feel good. And the "didn't mean it like that" part, I have to ask, is it only just you who thinks negatively about all this, or it's rather more a pattern of all who identified as a woman? Until you can confirm that, your statement of "You don't get a free pass just because you didn't mean it like that" is rather weak. Because who knows other woman may not think overtly about this at all.

- Bonnie

[Curiouser&Curiouser]

I think as long as people aren't getting personal, a discussion like this has a real chance to bring about some understanding. Kudos to both Zooey and Bonnie for sticking with it and for doing their best to be civil!

I'd like to say that for my part I think I have definitely reduced what being a woman is down to some trite component at least a few times in my life. I'm not proud of it, but it is something I've done in an attempt to relate, or for some other well-meaning purpose that still mansplained the world. I didn't have the wisdom or experience to even qualify my statements, let alone realize they were unhelpful. I have been growing a lot over this short life of mine, and hopefully keep my foot out of my mouth more often now, but the offenses are there, and I'm sure I'll make more. I have also seen things on this board I would qualify as reductionist and immature; for me that is a natural outcome when you have a group whose life is lived outside normality, and only can see the world they love through a keyhole. But my wife and others she's been getting support from are often offended at a man usurping their identities as if they were their own; it's something I've had to admit that I really do not understand. A person who has enjoyed the privilege of the powerful cannot come to understanding of the weak without giving up that power entirely. As a middle-class white man, I know that my picture of the world will always be incomplete. However, the more time I spend in areas where I am a minority, or living, even if only for a millisecond, as a woman, I start to at least be able to speak with some more empathy about these situations. Hopefully love will be the thing people hear from me, not judgement.

- Sandra

[TrishaLake]

I briefly give my two cents, when I dress like a man , i feel mostly like a man ...I play sports, go to bar , chat with my friends, look at girls etc etc etc...In fact I would bet allot of people have no idea about anything I do.

ahhh, but when I dress like a girl, I do my best to look like a girl, feel like a girl etc...I love the feeling, feel femine and pretty much act like a girl...well maybe not voice and working on walk. I believe I am 60/40 guy gal. I can't get away from either side so I have accepted both sides. Of course I wish more people accepted me to, but Ill take what I can get.

I also saw someone say they only feel this way when they go out, I feel this way when I am around another person...it is acceptance which validates that it is ok to be the 40%. My wife is on the fence but at least she knows now...

I see some truth in both sides here but the term I thought I agreed with the most is, I only know what makes me feel like me...women or man...and as such, I only know.

At some of the parties, fully dressed, with a glass of wine...I feel like a hot chick...and that is good enough for me.

[Zooey]

First of all, thank you to C&C, because that was a very well written and reasonable response.

Bonnie,

The kids I was talking about were absolutely just using "gay" as an expression. They did not mean it negatively towards homosexual people. That's the point - "it's just an expression" is not an excuse.


No one here is reducing women to their exterior/aesthetic.

With respect, yes people are. How many times have you seen things like this posted here in one form or another, including a lot in this thread?

"I feel like a woman when I put on clothes and makeup. The wig is when I feel complete as a woman."

That statement absolutely reduces women to their exterior. You, and other men who say this, are literally saying, "When i put on a woman costume, I feel like a woman", which says rather clearly that the costume is all that's required to feel like a woman. That's obviously not true. You can say the clothes make you feel "pretty", "soft", or even "feminine". All of those are completely reasonable things to say about typically feminine clothing. They have next to nothing to do with feeling like a woman.

That's the point.

[Vickie_CDTV]

To be honest, as a man I can't even say I know what it is like to "feel like a man". I only know how I "feel", I can't know how anyone else "feels". I know how I "feel", I don't know how other men "feel".

When en femme, I try to be a (traditional) "lady", the societal construct. I try to be a "lady", but I can't know how it feels to be a woman, just like I can't feel like it is to be anything else.

[ReineD]

Thanks for your well reasoned comments, Reine. However one dresses and presents, M2F or F2M, was not my main point, which was: don't knock a CD or TG who says he feels like a woman when that's impossible, because he's not a female.

Thanks Jenny, sorry I didn't get back to this earlier. There's another thread going on now about what "feeling like a woman" means, and how valid it is when stated by MtFs who have not transitioned. A lot of CDers in that thread said that even though they say "I feel like a woman", they mean, "I feel [fill in the blank: happy/contented/excited/aroused/etc] when I dress like a woman and it makes me feel feminine even though I know I am a man".

And so if you say "I feel like a woman" to other CDers, they'll understand what you mean. The rest of us are more literal and so it's important to elaborate a bit when you are talking to someone who is not a CDer.

P.S. And I don't knock people down for the way they feel. I'm just more of a stickler for finding more precise words ... words that don't get misconstrued, when people talk to each other who don't share the same experience. :)


I want to ask you why do you associate the feeling of being sexy and pretty solely with women? I get that the society says that women want to be desired etc. (GGs, would you care to shed some light on this?), but why a man (whether or not a crossdresser) cannot feel sexy and pretty, or better yet, want it? Is it not manly to admit so? It's as if someone decided what a man is supposed to want. Or am I misinterpreting words here?

No, guys are more likely to say (to themselves), "Man, I feel like a stud" when he notices that women are mouth-watering over him. lol. Same thing though. Both sexes are able to feel sexy and wanted and I agree, it feels good for the people who are in that phase of their lives. :)

[Bonnie Chan]

The kids I was talking about were absolutely just using "gay" as an expression. They did not mean it negatively towards homosexual people. That's the point - "it's just an expression" is not an excuse.

I think you haven't really got the significant difference between "gay" and "feel like a woman". "gay" word was used specifically to express a negative aspect of someone. "feel like a woman" is not, at least not intentionally by a male here. See, "gay" was used intentionally to insult someone and that makes a big difference, because it makes the word "gay" associated with negative meaning, and impact real gay people to have bad image too.
But "feel like a woman" is used for yourself, and I must say, why would anyone talk bad about yourself? Most male CDs have intention to just express the positive feeling by saying "I feel like a woman". So, I still don't understand why would you think this is offending woman in anyway. (And actually, I did get an answer from 1 GG that she said she didn't feel offended by this, mostly just confused why a male would say this...)




"I feel like a woman when I put on clothes and makeup. The wig is when I feel complete as a woman."

That statement absolutely reduces women to their exterior. You, and other men who say this, are literally saying, "When i put on a woman costume, I feel like a woman", which says rather clearly that the costume is all that's required to feel like a woman. That's obviously not true. You can say the clothes make you feel "pretty", "soft", or even "feminine". All of those are completely reasonable things to say about typically feminine clothing. They have next to nothing to do with feeling like a woman.

That's the point.

Okay, I now start to get your point where you're coming from that you're trying to defend overall woman image, because you identify yourself as one too. But I am not convinced yet why would CD dressing up and feel like a woman be related to reducing woman to be just exterior thing. And most of all, it's only CDers here who would say that in this forum, and we all understand clearly what it means and how it does not reduce woman to exterior for us. There's not much situation where CD would say this in public. Are you seeing the trend where people saying "feel like a woman when dressed up" would make woman look bad in public? If so, please do share the story, I'd be willing to hear more of this.

- Bonnie

[ReineD]

To me though, by definition, "femininity" means anything that looks pretty, girly, mostly anything associated to what typical attractive woman would have. Now, pretty/girly/beautiful is all subjective to each own person, so by that, the definition of "femininity" will also vary depending on the said person too.

Fundamentally, to me femininity means having a female body. I feel feminine when I'm naked. I feel feminine when I'm wearing an old pair of jeans, putting up a tile backsplash. I feel feminine when I'm all dressed up too.

What I choose to wear or not wear has no bearing on being connected to my womanhood or my femininity. Granted, wearing a pretty dress at a function, when my hair is just right and my makeup has taken 5 years off my age is good too, but that's just window dressing. It doesn't make me feel any more feminine than when I'm naked. When I was younger, I knew what to wear at clubs to get the guys to look at me and it made me feel good when they noticed, just like the guy who feels "Man, I'm a stud" when a girl falls all over him. So maybe he's wearing studly clothes that is causing this reaction in the girl, or maybe it's the fact that he has broad shoulders and slim hips and the clothes just accentuate that. But the fact remains that if he was naked in a room with her and she was still all over him, he'd still feel like a stud.


But I am not convinced yet why would CD dressing up and feel like a woman be related to reducing woman to be just exterior thing.

Because it implies that women who aren't all decked out the way CDers like to see women, somehow aren't as attractive? How many times have we seen in this forum, "I'm a lot more attractive or feminine than my wife".

[Lorileah]

:thinking: I find it interesting that some here say they feel like "a girl" and they don't mean an immature female. (OK let's not take that side track ) :)

[Lacy PJs]

Pretty simple. Female is a genetic thing.

That is the way I look at it as well. While some here have said that the two terms can be interchangeable, I would rather think in much more general terms. Female is a biological distinction. Dogs, cats, horses, cows and most other living creatures are either male or female. But to me, a woman portrays a human female who portrays everything that is positive about being a female; she's got those intangibles that make a difference. It is hard for me to accept that a street-walking, drug using, foul-mouthed female is a "woman." None of those characteristics are womanly to me.

Lacy PJs

[Lana Mae]

Reine, I am relatively new to this(a little over a year) but I have felt feminine in jeans and a tee shirt and even in drab with panties. I do not claim to be or ever will be female but i do say we can feel feminine. Just my thoughts. Hugs Lana Mae

[Teresa]

Zooey,
There appears to be a bitterness in your reply 69, you are putting words in some GGs mouths that aren't there.

I can say this now through my own experience of meetings other CDers, TSs and their partners. OK I accept I'm in a DADT situation but my wife has never suggested I'm offending her by suggesting part of me feels like a woman in fact she told me she accepts it and the same goes for all the other wives and partners I've met. They may not understand exactly how we feel but they don't react in the way you do over this issue , and I'm out to many women now .

[Zooey]

Hmm? What words am I putting in the mouths of natal females in that post? I'm using their words. More specifically, the words of Simone de Beauvoir, whose work formed the basis for nearly all strains of modern feminism.

Beyond that, I would say that your sample size is rather small. More importantly, it's heavily biased towards women in relationships with gender nonconforming men who want to make it work badly enough to attend support groups and other functions with them.

With respect to bitterness, sure... I'm bitter about a lot of things. Transition has thrown the pervasive double standards and ridiculousness of patriarchy into incredibly sharp relief. It's frustrating when men don't recognize or actively dismiss the struggles that women still face in modern society, simply because they aren't affected by them. It's especially infuriating when men do that while simultaneously claiming some deeper connection to or understanding of women. So yes, I will somewhat bitterly point out the ways in which you do that, most of which you don't even realize you're doing.

As Reine keeps trying to point out, to seemingly minimal comprehension... Very few of you actually want to be women. The vast majority of you want to be centerfolds, or more accurately, the heavily staged static images of them, because that is your definition of what women should be. I have seen so many responses to her posts that go something like, "Yes, I agree Reine. Good points! That is why I strive to have very feminine mannerisms and look very presentable and prim and proper, so that I can feel like a woman", thus demonstrating that they have completely missed the point, intentionally or not.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
As you rightly say , IN YOUR OPINION ! But Reine is a GG and she doesn't appear to be bitter and I'll ignore the condescending third paragraph, it's something I've never done personally to you !

I think we'd better call it a day on this one !

[Bonnie Chan]

Zooey... If you really seek to get people here, particularly male CDs here, to understand your point better about woman oppression that you feel, you first need to be respectful when talking to people. The way you say now, it's very distracting for people to read and get personal very easily. I must say I'm finding myself a hard time understanding you too because of how you say it. It's very hard for me to actually get any point you tried to bring out with your replies.
Also, a lot of time you replied here, you only say "you men don't understand woman", but you didn't elaborate more on "why" (and that's what I'm trying to dig out from you.) It's not very helpful at all.


Beyond that, I would say that your sample size is rather small. More importantly, it's heavily biased towards women in relationships with gender nonconforming men who want to make it work badly enough to attend support groups and other functions with them.

The same thing can say with you too. How many *real* women have you talked to regarding this issue? I emphasize on *real* to indicate GG only, not including trans woman. If you have already talked to other trans woman and got similar response to yours then okay, that's also a good knowledge to know too. But that won't apply to GG. No, you're still far different from GG woman out there that has lived all their life as a woman and they may have different opinions from you.


Because it implies that women who aren't all decked out the way CDers like to see women, somehow aren't as attractive? How many times have we seen in this forum, "I'm a lot more attractive or feminine than my wife".

Reine, I think being "attractive" and being "woman" are two different things. And I'd never say I'm more attractive woman than real woman, because I'm never a real woman. I can understand saying that would offend a lot of GGs. It's like saying "you're not beautiful", it's almost like an insult if one says it inappropriately. (The exception is that sometimes someone might want to get an honest opinion to improve themselves and they're ready for negative feedback then that's a good attitude.) But I'm not even sure how is that related to reducing woman to exterior thing?

I think the confusion is how you define "woman". I believe that for most people, you are a "woman" as long as you have a physical body of "woman", regardless of what your hobbies are, what you like, how you feel, what's your personality. The same goes with "man", you are a "man" as long as you have physical body of "man", even if you may not like sports, don't drink, have weak body, etc. Reine, as you mentioned earlier, woman and man have a lot of shared traits together and so our brains are not so much different, given if we have grown up in the same environment.
So, now, if I'm going with this logic, doesn't it mean we already define both "woman" and "man" according to the exterior thing, being physical body of each of us? Or am I mistaking the term "exterior thing"?

And now comes to the "I feel like a woman when I CD", at least for me, it'd be because when I look at myself in a mirror, I can resemble a woman, though not 100%. I can feel like a woman when having all shape wears (e.g. breast forms/butt pad/wigs) and wear my male cloth too sometimes, just for fun. But I must admit I do like to wear appropriate woman clothes more so that I can look like an attractive woman which feels better to myself.
So I'm not sure if my said behavior is reducing woman to exterior thing? It might be, but I'm still not convinced yet why it's a bad thing, and I need help from GGs to give some more example that I can relate to.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

Also, a lot of time you replied here, you only say "you men don't understand woman", but you didn't elaborate more on "why" (and that's what I'm trying to dig out from you.) It's not very helpful at all.

Well, whether you understand women or not, you're clearly not very good at actually listening to them.


The same thing can say with you too. How many *real* women have you talked to regarding this issue? I emphasize on *real* to indicate GG only, not including trans woman. If you have already talked to other trans woman and got similar response to yours then okay, that's also a good knowledge to know too. But that won't apply to GG. No, you're still far different from GG woman out there that has lived all their life as a woman and they may have different opinions from you.

First of all... Really? You want to have the "real woman" conversation with me? Screw you.

Second of all, how many natal females have i talked to about this subject... In person? Around 100. Online? Somewhere around 250 more, conservatively. The majority of them find discomfort in this subject past a certain point. For some, it's annoyance. For others, it's more frustration or anger.

If you want to read a perspective that you might understand better or find more relatable to you, I will refer you to this comment by Curiouser&Curioser (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?245125-Woman-vs-Female&p=4026088&viewfull=1#post4026088). What they are describing is what I'm wishing more of you would realize.

[Bonnie Chan]

Or.. it could be that it's you who's clearly not very good at speaking and explain things. *sigh* I must say each of your replies start to get to my nerve and it's clear that you don't try to be polite at all. Are you sure the reason you may be treated badly in personal life is not just because of your own personality that you expose here, rather than overall woman gender inequality? So before you can show some maturity here, I don't think I can take your point seriously anymore. I have already given myself enough time trying to understand you.

And yes, I've read a comment from Curiouser&Curiouser. I agree with her point too about sometimes we might have offended or reduced woman to something unintentionally, and we should learn more about that to make the world better. But, that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking specifically about "feel like a woman". And again, I'm still not convinced why would a male saying this is a bad thing for woman.

Moreover, you should also know your place that you are trans woman, not a real genetic-born woman. So stop talking like you know everything about being a woman. Sure, you may know about being a woman more than us because you have transitioned, but you definitely never will truly know how being a real woman would be because you haven't experienced as a woman from birth. How do you know GGs feel since they were a little girl? You were a boy, not a girl, and now an adult woman. That makes a big difference. At best you can only say you know how being a trans woman is, and you need to acknowledge that yourself first. You're trying to pretend yourself to be one of GG, which you are clearly not. It seems you believe everything you said is always correct. You know what people call that attitude? High-ego people.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

When did I say I was treated particularly badly in my personal life? I'm not, at least not relative to other women. Women as a class are systematically treated poorly relative to men.

I've never said that I was anything other than a trans woman, though I take serious issue with your characterization of me and other trans women. I know how "GGs" feel about certain things because I talk to them and actually listen. Generally speaking, we find our perspectives align, even if the specifics of our stories were a bit different. Sometimes we don't, and that's interesting too, though we've generally got a lot more in common than we do differences. One thing that transition and hindsight have made very clear is that, while I was a male child, I was never much of a boy.

Regardless, right now we are talking about the ways in which men - even or perhaps especially men in dresses - objectify women, and reduce their value to their perceived aesthetic qualities. Sorry to break it to you honey, but as somebody who's medically transitioning I've actually got a body that in overall appearance is substantially more "female" than "male" at this point, and I've got more than enough experience with objectification from men to speak confidently about it.

[Lily Catherine]

At least for now, I cannot say for sure that I can even 'feel like a woman'; mind you I don't even know how to 'feel like a man' at all. Heck, I am in no capacity to define femininity or womanhood for the time being (physically closeted and dissatisfied). I've definitely made the mistake of speaking in stereotypes quite a few times, even masculine ones, reducing a mere outward show to an inner feeling. I agree with Zooey as regards the idea that many on this page merely want to be a centerfold, a distilled image they perceive as the zenith of femininity, ergo the "prim and proper presentation" and reduction to stereotypes that is rampant on this site.

There is, perhaps, better shorthand for that feeling of beauty one experiences when being dressed up. In my male shell, I do feel that as well, unhappy as I may be with it. But feeling "like a woman" being tied down to adopting the mere image of one, and for that matter one perceived as the model standard of beauty? No. Just... NO. Don't you dare.

[FrannGurl]

I have to state that only YOU can define whether you are TG, TS, Trans, Female or Male. For anyone else to say you are NOT is part of the divisive attitude we should all avoid.

I agree..I still don't know where I fit in. I do know, at least for me, that I am probably a little too sensitive when watching a romantic movie, cry when I am touched by something, and I am interested in things a genetic woman would. dressed or not. I'm not sure how that makes me, but I don't think its something that some ( or many) of us can define because we are not born genetically women....just my experience is all.

[Bonnie Chan]

Lily, by your "Feel like a woman", what do you actually mean? A lot of confusion is going on because this can be interpreted differently, mainly two things:
1) Know what it feels to be a woman, aka. know what other woman feels.
2) Have the feel (specifically the look feeling) of a woman.

Here's the definition:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/feel+like
feel like someone or something
to have the feel of someone or something; to seem to be someone or something according to feel or touch. Ex. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy. This thing feels like a rubber hose, not a hot dog.

And I must ask again (I already asked this earlier but it seems get lost), what does "woman" or "man" really mean? Is it referring to only the physical body, or are we talking about how one identify themselves, or could it be about traits/personalities too? IMO, "woman" or "man", in public eyes, differentiate based on the "look" of physical body only. Because there's a clear differences between woman and man physical bodies. And that may be reality that we need to accept first. (I'm not saying this is how it works but it could be one possibility.)

Still, I don't see why a male saying "I feel (have a look feeling) like a woman (when fully dressed up, with breasts/wigs/everything that helps make one look like woman)" would reduce woman's image or values at all.
For example, if I say "I feel like Tom when I wear this green shirt". Would this make Tom look bad at all? I don't see how. It's just a way to say that I look like Tom who likes to wear green shirt. This does not reduce Tom's value to be just the cloth, does it?

I'll say my current impression regarding "feel like a woman" is that we are making a big issue out of it unnecessarily. I can't find any connection or related example that this would make woman image looks bad yet.

And btw Zooey, I'm just saying you are trans woman, because you are trans woman. I'm not saying you are not one of woman, but rather a sub-set of woman that's different from GG. And to be fair, when I dress, I'm also still a man, a man in a dress that is. And I am a CD. And I am what I am.

- Bonnie

[Sally24]

I've never said that I was anything other than a trans woman,


Prior to actually living as a woman, I was definitely trans, but I somewhat regret claiming to BE a woman at that point. Life is a harsh teacher though, and my identity as a woman grows more developed every day.

If you want to nit pick on everyone's use of language then be prepared for it to be used on you too. You try to speak from the perspective of a woman, but reject that anyone else who hasn't followed your path could do the same. That's my problem with your whole line of reasoning. And your tone is not one of reason but of dismissal. You want TG people here to avoid stereotypes of women but you drop others here right into the stereotype image of a man who doesn't truly listen to women. Are there men here that do that? Sure. But you want to lump the majority here into that one little box. I think the beauty of this forum is to show how many different ways there are to be trans. The problem comes when one person or group is sure that they know more than everyone else on the subject. You know yourself. Everything else you know is by inference. You can't know how others feel or relate because they are not you.

[Zooey]

"Woman", being a superset of cis women and trans women. So, I stand by the language I used, and I don't see any conflict in what you quoted from me.

[Dana44]

So you are saying trans woman is a subset of womanhood. . I agree and in fact many of the CD's are indeed trans and if they say I feel like a woman, why not let them. Are you the only one on earth that is one?

[Zooey]

I think that very much depends on your definition of trans, but...

Sigh... I give up.

[Megan G]

in fact many of the CD's are indeed trans and if they say I feel like a woman, why not let them.

Trans as in Transgender or Trans as in Transsexual? If they identity and live as male than how can they possibly know what it is like to feel like a woman... There is a fundamental difference between identifying as female and feeling like a woman. I will use myself as a quick example, I never claimed to know what it felt like to be a woman at any stage in my life while living as a male. It was not until well into full time that I began to understand what that meant and felt that way and it is an ever evolving feeling as time goes by...

I think this would be a good thread for all of you that don't understand what Zooey and the others are trying to say...

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?239714-how-does-it-feel-to-be-a-women-GGs-and-transwomen-only-please

There are some great replies in there from FAB's and TS's and you will notice it is all about life experience and nothing in there is about an aspect of life that a Cd'er can experience in any way...

[Bonnie Chan]

Megan, I assume you are interpreting "feel like a woman" as "has an inner feeling like a woman"? If so, I agree a male cannot possibly know what it feels (inner feeling) like to be a woman everyday.
However, "feel like a woman" can be interpreted different way too. Most CDs here when say it, they probably mean "I feel (have a look feeling) of a woman". They don't mean anything close to claim that one know how woman feel inside. Mostly, I think, we just refer to the outside feeling (touch/sight/smell) that we feel (have outside feeling) like a woman.
See this thread here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?245193-Feel-like-a-woman

Zooey, I have come to realize that you seem to be biased towards men in general. Do you realize that? By saying "men just don't understand women" from the beginning already shows how you think of men, clearly. You feel oppressed, sure. But to blame all men is just plainly disgusting. And if you think like that, there's no way men will ever understand you (just you, I'm not talking about all trans woman) And I will stretch that, because of your actions here, you are already representing a bad image of trans woman you so much want to protect.
I'm not saying all woman are bad, but by Zooey's action makes me wonder subconsciously if this is what other trans woman are like as well? You know, it's like if once you got attacked by a <some race, not trying to be specific and sound racist here> person, you will start to unconsciously be biased toward all similar <race> people too because they share common image of the person who had attacked you in the past. It's just how human nature works to defend themselves by learning from the past.

And Sally, thanks for bringing that point up. I wasn't sure myself what is the problem I'm having with Zooey here, I just know it's not going smoothly. But you nailed it, Zooey's tone of speaking are mostly dismissal and not one of reasoning. I'm trying to find a reason here and Zooey seems to put all emotion and ego into her own replies.
I think I find it a waste of time talking to Zooey here. It's like talking to a wall who only knows how to reflect back what the other person talks. Zooey, I don't know if you use this tone with other men in your personal life too, if you do, be careful what you'll get out there. You will only get treated back nicely if you treat the other person nicely first.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

I think I find it a waste of time talking to Zooey here. It's like talking to a wall who only knows how to reflect back what the other person talks. Zooey, I don't know if you use this tone with other men in your personal life too, if you do, be careful what you'll get out there. You will only get treated back nicely if you treat the other person nicely first.

LOL, rest assured that the feeling is mutual. My last few boyfriends have had no complaints in that department, so, whatever?

I don't blame all men for things. We're talking about a specific issue that occurs HERE. I'm blaming many, but not all, of the men HERE for doing something I consider inappropriate. You'll notice that I've been quite complimentary of the one man in this thread who I thought wrote something with actual understanding and substance behind it.

I don't hate men, and I don't think that I'm biased towards them. I don't even think that I'm biased against the men here, aka the men who say they "feel like women" when they put on women's clothes. Bias would be if I passed judgement in a way that either had no factual backing, or was not proportional to the factual backing available. I believe that everything I've talked about as an issue here is incredibly well demonstrated in this forum. I try to avoid quoting individual examples, because I'm more interested in talking about this a systemic issue, rather than beating up on individuals. i can start doing that if you'd like, but I'd prefer not to.

[Bonnie Chan]

So now you accepted you're blaming many. Yes, you did, and that's a problem you have Zooey. Once you start a blame game, it's only natural to get back what you started. You really need to learn your communication skill if you want to talk to people with different opinions than you effectively. There're so many ways to point out a negative thing in people smoothly.

And I think you still don't realize you're biased yet. Look back to what you did here in this thread, people just express their neutral opinions, but you already assumed they meant negative thing and you jumped to the conclusion by yourself. You passed judgement to people from just saying one word. You perceived "factual backlog" to mean one thing and not the other. That's called biased.

- Bonnie

[Megan G]

Sorry Bonnie, I have been following these two threads and it does not matter how you try to spin the words around or try different interpretations of it , when someone says "I feel like a woman" to me that means exactly what it sounds like...

When you dress up like a cowboy, Astronaut, mass murder or what ever for Halloween you don't say "I feel like a "XX", you may look like one but that's about it. You just simply cannot "feel" like one without the life experience to back it up. Making it worse is if a male identified CD gets all dolled up and stands in front of a mirror and says "I feel like a woman" it is absolutly reducing what it means to be a woman to her exterior image. And that is something we have seen a lot of here on this forum. I'm not saying everyone does it but it happens quite frequently...

I just don't get why your trying to push this so much when 100% of woman(both fab and TS) that answered the two threads say "nope you don't"...

[Bonnie Chan]

Thanks Megan for your honest reply. From what I've seen so far, I find it interesting that all woman here think "feel like a woman" differently than all males here. I'm very curious if this is just a limitation of our brain differences, or hormone, that makes us interpret this differently?

But I'll bring this up again, as this is the standard definition that I believe we should adhere to. It's what language is for so everybody understands the same meaning:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/feel+like
feel like someone or something
to have the feel of someone or something; to seem to be someone or something according to feel or touch. Ex. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy. This thing feels like a rubber hose, not a hot dog.

So when someone says "Whoever this is feels like Tom", do you mean that "whoever that is" must have a life experience like Tom to just feel like Tom? In the other thread, someone gave a good example saying "I feel like a poop" which probably means you feel bad like a poop. It doesn't literally mean you have a feeling of a poop.

And in your example, if I put on Astronaut suit, I find it perfectly make sense to say "hey look, I feel like an Astronaut now". And I may even play around acting like I'm an Astronaut with that feeling in mind. But this shouldn't reduce Astronaut to just exterior suit. It's just because an Astronaut suit belongs to an Astronaut and that's what people usually see, and we may just feel like that when wearing one, without even referring to what real Astronaut must feel like working everyday.

Sorry if I sounded pushy, but I just don't understand why we all can't come to the middle-ground to understand that "feel like <something>" doesn't mean anything, and we should just let it go. As you may see from the other thread, different people has different opinions, and maybe all woman think it the same way, which if so, then both man and woman both should just understand each other that "feel like <something>" means different for each of us and we shouldn't jump to any conclusion when someone says it.

And I must ask again, how does "woman" exactly define? To be fair, I'll ask, how does "man" exactly define as well? IMO, woman and man definition seems to be referring to physical body. If you have breasts, vagina, you are a woman. If you have penis, you are a man. This is regardless of how one identify themselves inside their own mind. And that's why TS want to change their body to match their mind to actually be "woman", right?
And if so, isn't the reality that "woman" and "man" are just exterior thing? Are we stretching it too far to say "woman" and "man" to have deeper meaning with how one has past experiences?
For example, if somehow I got magically transformed into a woman body, I will say "I feel like a woman outside", but "I still feel like a man inside, because I had lived as a male". But I may just say "I feel like a woman because I have woman body now", which I meant "I feel like a woman outside", not implying anything with inner mind at all.

PS. I'm not saying the woman or man's worth is in the exterior body only. I'm just saying it seems to be how we define it IMO. I have an awesome SO who I love so much for being strong for me when I'm down, or take care of me for stuff, enjoy playing games together/watching movies, etc. I love her for who she is, not because of being a woman. We also enjoy our physical attraction to each other, so there's exterior worth too, sexually. I respect all human being who shows their worth through their actions, regardless of gender/race/ages. If a kid can show me he/she is strong, then I'll think he/she is strong. If my considered best friend does something stupid to me, then I'll think less of him/her too.
Sorry if it may sound like an excuse to make me look better. I just want to say the "feel like a woman" is really separate from "woman's worth", at least for me. I understand to the certain point how woman feels from what I talked to my SO every day, and I'm still learning.

- Bonnie

[Megan G]

. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy..

Again "feeling like Tom" is reducing Tom to his exterior becuase he is soft and pudgy... I'm sure Tom's not going to appreciate that 😆




IMO, woman and man definition seems to be referring to physical body. If you have breasts, vagina, you are a woman. If you have penis, you are a man.

Male and female are sex identifiers.. woman and man are lived gender identities... like Zooey said earlier I was born TS and became a woman. Others are born female (or male) and become women(or men) .....all life experience.




For example, if somehow I got magically transformed into a woman body, I will say "I feel like a woman outside", but "I still feel like a man inside, because I had lived as a male". But I may just say "I feel like a woman because I have woman body now", which I meant "I feel like a woman outside"

Or you could say you feel like a trans man as you identity as male and have a female body suddenly ... ☺️ You will get the privilege of knowing what it is like to be TS pre transition..

[Bonnie Chan]

Again "feeling like Tom" is reducing Tom to his exterior becuase he is soft and pudgy... I'm sure Tom's not going to appreciate that ��
Oops, I didn't see that it has described soft and pudgy... Then yeah if someone is saying because of that, I agree Tom would not appreciate that (assuming he doesn't like to be soft and pudgy, or who knows someone might be proud of that? It depends on culture this one).
What if one says "feel like Tom because of wearing green shirt that Tom likes to wear"? This is rather neutral IMO. Green shirt does not indicate negative thing AFAIK. It's more like Tom's signature and his friends recognize that, and that's it. It's just one of his character that he portrays. And that doesn't mean his friends think less of him to be just a "green shirt". They will still recognize Tom as a sincere, considerate, dependable person, and also happens to like to wear green shirt.
So now, what do you think of this scenario then? Is it still bad for Tom? If so, why? I'd really like to understand the reasoning.


Male and female are sex identifiers.. woman and man are lived gender identities... like Zooey said earlier I was born TS and became a woman. Others are born female (or male) and become women(or men) .....all life experience.
Could you elaborate more on your opinion about "woman" and "man" are lived gender identities? Also, if there's some outside support evidence for what you said it would be a lot better. Otherwise I'll take it as one opinion only, to be fair :) Because everyone else could be thinking differently, and I find it hard to believe anything by just one person saying it. I'm a hard believer I know :) and it's for my own good sake. You don't want to blindly believe what anyone tell you what's right or wrong as well, right?


Or you could say you feel like a trans man as you identity as male and have a female body suddenly ... ☺️ You will get the privilege of knowing what it is like to be TS pre transition..
Yeah, you could say that too :) Honestly, it's hard to describe how one feels exactly anyway, and that's why we have so much confusion going on.

Btw, I really appreciate your thoughtful opinions, even we still have some disagreement. It's really what we need for us to move a discussion forward in a meaningful way. Let's keep up our momentum like this :)

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

Could you elaborate more on your opinion about "woman" and "man" are lived gender identities? Also, if there's some outside support evidence for what you said it would be a lot better. Otherwise I'll take it as one opinion only, to be fair :) Because everyone else could be thinking differently, and I find it hard to believe anything by just one person saying it. I'm a hard believer I know :) and it's for my own good sake. You don't want to blindly believe what anyone tell you what's right or wrong as well, right?

If you want to understand the experiences of modern women, consider learning about feminism. Even amongst women who do not embrace feminism as a movement, you will find that they actually do believe in quite a lot of modern feminist philosophy, and rather deeply so.

If you want to go back to the beginning, you could start here... The Second Sex, by Simone de Beauvoir (https://smile.amazon.com/Second-Sex-Simone-Beauvoir/dp/030727778X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479952430&sr=8-1&keywords=the+second+sex), a 1949 treatise which forms the basis for nearly all contemporary feminism.

One of the more notable quotes from this work, which I paraphrased earlier in this thread, is "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman”. This is woman as a lived gender, born of a cumulative set of experience under patriarchy.

[Megan G]

Bonnie,

IMHO saying you feel like Tom becuase he regularly wears a green shirt again is all about the exterior. To Tom it's just a shirt, green may be his favorite colour but I am sure he does not "feel" any differently when he is wearing it. IF you said "I look like Tom" becuase of the green shirt than ya.....I agree..

As for "man and woman" being a lived experience let's try this. If you instantly aged a 10 year old boy so that he was suddenly 45 I would not call him a man. He still only has the life experience and brain development of a 10 year old regardless of the age of the body. So in this case he is not a man as he has not had life's lessons to teach him and shape him into the man he WILL become someday.....make sense?

[Sara Jessica]

So if Tom is not a man, doesn't this theory suggest that any TS woman who transitions at 45 is not worthy of being called a woman? She has not had the life lessons to teach her and shape her into the woman she ASPIRES TO BE.

If the response is "she has been a girl/woman all her life, only began living her reality at 45", then how does that differ from any perceived CD'er who for whatever reason has yet to transition or chooses not to transition? Her brain feels female/woman, her experiences speak otherwise.

[Megan G]

Sara,

I think your question is decent but if you look up a couple posts you will notice that I touched on this already. When I was presenting as a man in life at no point did I ever consider myself a woman. I always identified as having a female gender identity.

Even during when I was living part time I never considered or claimed to be a woman as to me this was just the beggining of my formative years. I was learning who I was and my place in society. I had to completely relearn how to navigate day to day life in my real gender.

It was not well into full time that I truly began to realize what it meant to be a woman and even now I consider my viewpoint and my life experience in its infancy still.

Transition is tough as we don't have decades of experience behind us and we have to learn fast.. it is sink or swim. that's why I said it was not until well into full time before I felt comfortable saying I knew what it was like to be a woman and I still have so much to learn and figure out.

So again it is not truly possible for a cd or a non transitioning TS to really fully know what it is like to feel like a woman. Unless you are out in the real world living it in your day to day life, full time than there is just no way to truly know..

[Bonnie Chan]

IMHO saying you feel like Tom becuase he regularly wears a green shirt again is all about the exterior. To Tom it's just a shirt, green may be his favorite colour but I am sure he does not "feel" any differently when he is wearing it. IF you said "I look like Tom" becuase of the green shirt than ya.....I agree..

Megan, I think our understanding of the word "feel" may be different, and that might be why we're not on the same page yet. What does "feel" actually mean to you? To me, "feel" is very abstract:
- It can mean my "inner" feeling, e.g. feel happy, feel sad, feel frustrated, feel excited, feel lucky, feel bad, feel neutral.
- At the same time, it could also mean my "exterior" feeling, specifically five senses e.g. feel pain, feel cold, feel hurt, feel relaxed, feel smelly, feel dark/bright, feel loud, feel quiet.

And so that's why "I feel like a woman" can mean "I look like a woman", implicitly for some of us, but apparently not clear to others.
In the Tom example, yes I agree Tom would probably not "feel" any differently when wearing green shirt. But, we're not talking about his "inner" feeling. When one says "I feel like Tom when I wear green shirt", one just refers to the "look feeling", aka "I look like Tom".

So, I completely agree with you that there's no way people who's never lived full time as a woman will ever know how woman life feels like. Let me emphasize again, I completely and totally agree with the point that people who's never lived full time as a woman will ever know or feel what it's like to be a woman.
But again, "feel like a woman" doesn't really mean one has the "inner" feeling of being a woman. Let's not jump to that conclusion. I mean, yes, it can mean that way, but not 100% of the time when people say it. As you may already see from the other thread, some people use "feel like a woman" as a meaning to say "I look like a woman".

My point is, assuming one says "feel like a woman" and intend to mean "I have an inner feeling of a woman", I agree that that's not valid for a male to say that.
However, assuming one says "feel like a woman" and intend to mean "I look like a woman", then it should be fine, at least that's what I think.
Now, the question is, assuming "feel like a woman" means "I look like a woman", would this still imply reducing woman to exterior thing still in your opinion? IMO, I don't see the reasoning to imply that, at least not yet. I really don't know how woman perspective thinks of this and I'm curious to know the reasoning behind it.


As for "man and woman" being a lived experience let's try this. If you instantly aged a 10 year old boy so that he was suddenly 45 I would not call him a man. He still only has the life experience and brain development of a 10 year old regardless of the age of the body. So in this case he is not a man as he has not had life's lessons to teach him and shape him into the man he WILL become someday.....make sense?

Thanks for the easy version of the explanation of "lived gender identities", Megan. I can see how I can relate to the "age" example. So according to this logic, if a male were to be magically transformed to female suddenly, that person would not be a woman, but still a man, am I correct? That makes sense. But I think there's more perspective to this.
First, I agree that in this case, that person would still identify himself to still be a man (in female body). I have watched some anime that's like this before, like the main guy got transformed into a girl and would still act normally like how he's used to be male. However, what about how other people see that person? I think, IMO, that other people will see that person as a woman, because of the image perceived by public eyes. However "manly" that person might act, other people would still see him as a woman. Conversely, let's say if there's a female magically transformed into a male, she would still think she is a woman (in male body). But other people will see her as a man as that's her image, regardless of how "girly" she might act.

So, what exactly is "woman" or "man" then? I find this very interesting because when you view it from yourself, you would say it depends on lived experience. But from other people who look at you, it rather depends on your image, again, in my opinion.

Now, I'm wondering what others may be thinking of this new perspective of "woman" and "man" from public eyes. Can we still apply the "lived experience" to the person to say if he/she is a man/woman? This is very confusing, and interesting :)

- Bonnie

[sometimes_miss]

Hmm? What words am I putting in the mouths of natal females in that post? I'm using their words. More specifically, the words of Simone de Beauvoir, whose work formed the basis for nearly all strains of modern feminism.
Well, Simone de Beauvoir doesn't speak for all women, either. And I disagree with some of what she wrote, as well.


It's frustrating when men don't recognize or actively dismiss the struggles that women still face in modern society, simply because they aren't affected by them.
And yet, it seems that plenty of women support those very men and those men's behavior.


Very few of you actually want to be women. The vast majority of you want to be centerfolds, or more accurately, the heavily staged static images of them, because that is your definition of what women should be.
Perhaps the word used shouldn't be 'should', but 'could'. For, does the desire to be a woman necessarily be limited to wanting to be one that is not physically attractive? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm pretty sure that if, given the choice, most women would prefer to be much more beautiful than they already are. Excellent facial bone structure? Blemish free complexion? Zero cellulite? Breasts that don't sag, at all? Flat tummy? Long, beautiful hair that she can roll out of bed and look great that way, and doesn't need tons of products, primping and ironing or curling to make it look good? Have the looks of a supermodel? I'm guessing most women would jump at that option. Just like we would. Really, are there people out there that enjoy being ugly, and wouldn't prefer to be drop dead gorgeous? I can't imagine that (other than those who have been gorgeous all their lives and feel like all that attention is a burden, never having known what it's like to be virtually invisible to the opposite sex).

[Sara Jessica]

I always identified as having a female gender identity...

Hence the title of this thread, Woman vs Female.

Female = identity. Woman = socialization. Which terms of art can and should be co-opted by whom? Seems like the debate gets caught up in wordplay which can make for spirited conversation but also frustrating division.

The identity part is something many of us can relate to, provided we are being 100% honest with ourselves and others. What we do about it, what we don't do about it, and how we express our feelings about identity influences how others see us. But socialization is an entirely different beast. At what point does the 45 year old transitioning woman bridge that gap? Who gets to define when she graduates into womanhood since identity alone was never going to be enough?

[Megan G]

So, what exactly is "woman" or "man" then? I find this very interesting because when you view it from yourself, you would say it depends on lived experience.

Bonnie,

Have you ever heard a parent or a relative say " I am so proud of "insert name here", over the years I have watched you become the beautiful and strong young woman (or young man) that you are today"

Notice how they place the words "become" and "young" in there. They are describing the life experiences they have lived over their life. It's not so much about age but more about the person they have become..

Listen I am not saying I am right and this is the only way to view it, there could be people out there that think I am off my rocker and they are entitled to that but from the upbringing I have had, within the culture I live in and experiencing life both as a male and female that is my understanding of it...

I do think that there might be a few people in the cd section here that they could be experiencing some sort of identity issues. I will be honest I don't put much stock in that as lately many have been trying to re write accepted terminology but I am not going to dive into that and open that can of worms...

We can argue this all day and get and get no where, could be a mars/Venus thing or it could be a culture issue (Canadian/American) I don't know...that's my way of saying I think I am done with this..lol

[Bonnie Chan]

I got that part you said Megan about life experiences defining who you am... But you are not quite answering my question about a different perspective from other people who judge you from the image outside at first glance.

I'll quote my full sentence which you missed last part of it:

So, what exactly is "woman" or "man" then? I find this very interesting because when you view it from yourself, you would say it depends on lived experience. But from other people who look at you, it rather depends on your image, again, in my opinion.
Again, if there's a situation where a male suddenly transformed into female body, that person would surely think he's still a man at that moment even though he's got female body now. But other people will always look at him as a "woman" because regardless of how he act, he would still look like a woman. As Reine mentioned before, women and men have a lot of shared traits. And, because of how people look at him as a "woman", he will start to have life experiences as a "woman" simply because of having female body. Then eventually he will "become a woman" too because he's gaining life experiences as a "woman".

So from this perspective, isn't "woman" or "man" rather depending on the image outside only for other people that see you? Even when socializing, they would probably still think you are "woman" or "man" based on appearance only, no matter what personality you have.

Let's say this, if a mom plays a game with her kid about telling who's "man" or "woman", a kid will say "that's a man/woman" based on appearance only.

So my point is, "woman" is not clearly defined in one meaningful way. It very much depends on the context when you use it too.

And Megan, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. As you see what I wrote above, I'm only suggesting that there's a way to look at "woman" or "man" definition differently too. And I already acknowledged one of the definition is up to life experiences as you said. You don't need to get defensive. We are only discussing on different ideas because who knows we might find a new conclusion to all of this. It's a "learning" experience for all of us.
And I have to ask, are you ready to accept new ideas yourself yet? The problem with Zooey is that she's not willing to accept different ideas from her own, and worse, she just downright bashed them all down without a second thought. I'm sure you can do better than Zooey because I get a feeling of respectfulness from your tone of speaking and I do respect you back.

And oh, I almost got lost track with the main topic. I haven't yet got an answer from you regarding "feel like Tom" too after I explained my reasoning about "feel" meaning. Do you agree with the "feel" being a look feeling only in the case of "feel like Tom". If not, I'd like to know what's your reasoning back.

- Bonnie

[Zooey]

And I have to ask, are you ready to accept new ideas yourself yet? The problem with Zooey is that she's not willing to accept different ideas from her own, and worse, she just downright bashed them all down without a second thought. I'm sure you can do better than Zooey because I get a feeling of respectfulness from your tone of speaking and I do respect you back.

I think that's a gross mischaracterization of me and what I've said here, and I'd like to point out that at no point have I personally attacked or insulted your character.

To your (and Sara's, kinda) point about perception mattering, I agree with you. The reality is that the extent to which trans women experience the realities of being a woman in society is directly tied to how often or whether they are perceived as being women. The realities of being perceived as trans are harsh, but they are different than the realities of being perceived as a woman.

To address your question of "what is woman/man", I would use a different example that you might be able to relate to... What is an asian person? Are people born and raised in asia asian? What about people of asian descent born and raised entirely in the USA? There are always multiple facets to these identifications, and I believe that it's a something that must be evaluated holistically across all of them.

When it comes to language, and still not understanding the reaction... Is it appropriate for me to say, "I feel asian because I'm very smart and play the violin?" Is it appropriate for me to say "I feel asian when I eat General Tso's chicken while wearing silk?" Is it appropriate for me, as a white person, to say that "I feel asian when I squint?"

[Becky Blue]

When it comes to language, and still not understanding the reaction... Is it appropriate for me to say, "I feel asian because I'm very smart and play the violin?" Is it appropriate for me to say "I feel asian when I eat General Tso's chicken while wearing silk?" Is it appropriate for me, as a white person, to say that "I feel asian when I squint?"

With the greatest of respect Zooey that example is ridiculous. A person is Asian if they are born in the countries that are in Asia. If I am born in Africa, but am white skinned I am still an African, and nothing can change that.

Gender is a lot more complex than race it is a continuum and has elements such as chromosomal, physical etc....

[Zooey]

...but there are half-asians, quarter-asians, asian-americans, etc, etc. At what point are they not asian? How is that not a continuum of sorts? How is that any different?

Past a certain point, we all collectively draw lines for what makes sense and what is appropriate, and we don't feel terribly bad about it. People would (and should) get very offended if I, a white trans woman, say that "I feel asian when I squint my eyes" or that "I feel asian when I play the violin", etc. I have ZERO justifiable basis for making that claim, it's based on a horrible stereotype of asians, and I have no idea what it feels like to be asian in modern society.

My claim is similar. If you are a male who is comfortable having a male body and who comfortably lives as a man, you have no basis for claiming to feel like a woman just because you put on a dress, and it's not unreasonable to be offended - mildly or otherwise - by your attempts to do so.

[Becky Blue]

Your Asian examples are stereotypes and squinting your eyes to be Asian is mocking and negative. Most of the people here are dressing because they love women so much they aspire to be one if only for a few hours. Why does it make any difference to you if someone puts on a dress and believes it makes them feel like a woman for a bit? They are not actually a woman.

You seem to be very black and white referring to a male who is comfortable and happy. What about someone who is ok with their male life but has strong desires and urges to dress (or more) at times?

[Zooey]

Yes, they are offensive. That's the point. Putting on makeup and clothes to "feel like a woman" is exactly the same. It's a costume, based on damaging stereotypical expectations.

I have zero problem with men who want to wear dresses or anything else. I think gender non-conforming men are cool, even attractive in some cases. It has nothing to do with womanhood though.

[Becky Blue]

Yes, they are offensive. That's the point. Putting on makeup and clothes to "feel like a woman" is exactly the same. It's a costume, based on damaging stereotypical expectations.

I have zero problem with men who want to wear dresses or anything else. I think gender non-conforming men are cool, even attractive in some cases. It has nothing to do with womanhood though.

So you seriously believe that a person squinting their eyes so they can be Asian (which BTW I cannot imagine anyone would ever do) is the same as dressing like a woman to feel like a woman??

With respect you do not understand how dressing makes people like us on here feel? You are basically dismissing our feelings. Dressing for many of us is not like a hobby that we do because its fun. You have it the wrong way around I get strong feelings at time to feel more like a woman therefore I dress like one and try be more like one for a day or so. How in any way is that harming you or anyone else in the world? What you don't seem to understand is the mental side of it, its not about looking like a sexy centrefold its not about degrading women, its about getting into a zone its how the clothes make me feel as much, if not more than how they make me look.

[Lorileah]

and this thread is done