Feel like a woman

[Bonnie Chan]

So I have seen the other thread discussing about this and I would like to post my own questions that should help focus more on the main topic.

1. Does anyone here, mainly people who's born and lived as male, ever have a situation where you want to say or express your feeling like "I feel like a woman", for example when dressed up?
a) If so, what do you actually mean?
b) Does it depend on the surrounding context where you say it?

2. As a listener, if a male, particularly CD, say/express his feeling "I feel like a woman" to you, what do you think it means to you if that should happen?
a) Again, does it depend on the surrounding context as well?
b) [For TS who has transitioned or GG] Do you find this appropriate for a male to ever say this, such that it offends your gender or anything?

From what I have collected from the other thread, it seems there's a lot of variety of meaning to this.

I have seen that some people seem to not be convinced a male should ever say this because they would never know how real woman feels. I completely agree with the "a male never knows how real woman feels" part. But it's a question to me why one would think a male can/should never express this feeling. Does this offend to anybody in anyway? Or would it cause any bad consequences if a male should say this in public? What's the gain from not saying "I feel like a woman"?

To me, as a speaker, if I'm going to say "I feel like a woman" when dressed up, I don't really mean "I know how woman feels", I just mean "I feel like a female version of myself, and that includes just some of real woman attributes that I know from my experience such as having breasts/long hair/clean skin/shaved legs/beard/walking femininely/etc."

I will throw another example that shows similar meaning. Let's say, your male friend (not a CD) has long hair and he makes a joke saying, "Look at me, I feel like a woman now." In this scenario, he just means him having long hair makes him feel like he's a woman, just from outside look. He's not talking anything about inner thinking of woman.

So, from all this, I'd really like to know what are other people thinking about this. And I'd like to say anyone does have a right to say whatever they want, as long as it does not harm others. But what I don't understand yet is why someone say a male should never say "I feel like a woman". I'd really like to get more knowledge and come to the middle-ground of this so that both sides can have mutual understanding of each other. Really, this is a general problem with human miscommunication, both speakers and listeners should come to the middle-ground to understand what each side perceives and come to mutual understanding.

Phew! That's quite a long post I wrote there. If you have survived reading until here, thanks for reading!

- Bonnie

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Sometimes, when the combination of make-up, wig and lighting are right, I can get 4" from the mirror and almost pass out with happiness, because I recognise the woman in me looking back. Those are the purest moments of feeling feminine that I've experienced, and it touches me to my core. I feel like I'm looking into a woman's eyes, not a man's. The first time it happened I started crying.

Is this in any way what you're talking about? Being told 'You look just like a girl', which has happened a few times lately, is nothing compared to that feeling.

[Lana Mae]

The answer to the question is how you define "feel like a woman". The answer can be as variable as the number of people defining it! I felt my feminine side at my transformation for 4 days. It felt so good I did not want to leave! I will not say I felt like a woman, just feminine. IMHO Hugs Lana Mae

[Ashley090]

It realy depends on each person I think. But this
"I feel like a female version of myself, and that includes just some of real woman attributes , this is exactly what many of us trying to achive. How we feel during that its again depends on each person. Some want to be fully connected to their female side (like I do) and want feel feminime and try to "feel like woman" in everything basicly. On other hand some of us, they enjoy to dress up feminine and like female clothing and I guess their feeling 'll be more distant to "feel like woman". Please correct me if I am wrong :)
The term "I feel like woman" can't be taken exactly to point bcs yes, male never ever know what exactli it means. I even read blog once where gg wrote about it. That much hate to all tv,ts,cd and rest of our kind I didn't see in while. She pointed out that exact thing, that we never know what it means. Again, she were right, we do not know. I think nobody 'll argue about that. We can only assume that feeling we have while dressed IS what probably GG feel too, but we never know for sure. And by that "feel like a girl" many of us probably refer to all that about clothing and stuff. You know, feeling of stockings on our legs, weight our breasts, walk in sexy and painful heels,no need to write more,right? :) This is what most us refer to "feel like a woman". I think :D
Personaly when dressed I feel like female version of me. Everything is same just my body, my sex is opposite. And I more say "I feel feminine but not as female", it may sounds weird but I hope you get my point :)
Ash :)

[CarlaWestin]

Sometimes, when the combination of make-up, wig and lighting are right, I can get 4" from the mirror and almost pass out with happiness, because I recognise the woman in me looking back. Those are the purest moments of feeling feminine that I've experienced, and it touches me to my core. I feel like I'm looking into a woman's eyes, not a man's. The first time it happened I started crying.
I'm not sure if that passes as 'feeling like a woman' but, I've totally felt that experience and emotion. It's in my signature line.

[Beverley Sims]

My feeling like a woman comes from how others perceive me.

If I am wearing a skirt, top and boots, I usually return a smile to women, shop without self consciousness in lingerie and makeup departments inquire about jewellery and other basic accessories.

I just feel I fit in.

If I was in drab I usually feel uneasy talking about Bras nd other lingerie and how attractive it would look on me.

It that situation I feel like a MAN.

So when I am at ease in a dress and shopping in the ladies department maybe I that is how a woman should feel.

[Krisi]

If someone else were to grab my boobs or my butt, they might say I feel like a woman. I can do that myself even. My breasts feel like female breasts and my butt feels like a female butt. Mentally though, I don't feel like a woman, I feel like I've always felt but with boobs and a bigger butt.

Anyone who thinks strapping on a wig and a pair of boobs changes their personality or likes and dislikes is fooling himself.

[NicoleScott]

We should know by now that it's difficult to describe fluid gender identity in binary terms. I identify as a guy even when I crossdress - I'm just a guy who likes to dress up. But I accept that there are many who are gender fluid, because they say so. Yet there is a lot of resistance to the idea of sexual fluidity - different preferences according to how you're dressed. Too many members have posted that there are changes to their likes, dislikes, personality, and preferences when dressed. I believe them, even though not one of them.
Fooling themselves? Maybe, if that's another way of saying fantasizing. When I was a boy, I played a lot of wiffle ball, pretending to be a major leaguer, adopting team and player identities - even the radio announcer "Now stepping up to the plate, batting leftie, Mickey Mantle". Was I pretending, fantasizing, or just fooling myself?
I think too much is made of the "I feel like a woman" issue. Of course I can't know what it's like to be a woman. To me, when someone says "I feel like a woman", they mean "I feel like what I think it's like to be a woman.

[Lorna]

Here's what I wrote earlier today in response to another thread http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?245125-Woman-vs-Female/page3. It seems equally relevant (or not!) here:

I feel almost an outsider when reading the many well-expressed and sensibly argued points here. This forum - this web site - includes the word "crossdresser" in its title and that's the key word for me. I have never worn a wig or used make-up; I don't possess any breast forms; I don't shave my body. Sadly, I've never been out dressed fully as a woman - though I have been "underdressed". That isn't to say I would not have liked to do any or all of those things but the opportunity hasn't arisen. I know I am not a woman and don't look like one. None of that really matters to me because my interest is in the clothing, the dressing. All I ever really wanted to know is what it feels like to wear (some of) the clothing worn by (some) women. The brackets are there because, for reasons I can't explain, I have no interest, for example, in wearing jeans or leggings or shorts, even if they are designed and cut for women. What I enjoy is experiencing what it feels like to be in a dress, to wear a bra, to wear tights or stockings, to wear shoes with high heels or platforms. Of course I don't know whether what it feels like to me is the same as it feels like to a woman: probably not, if only because my body is a different shape from that of most women. The bra, for example, can't feel the same because I don't have breasts. I don't suppose my girdles feel as they would on a woman because of the difference in the waist-hip ratio. In other words, I want to know what it feels like to wear those clothes and I believe I can get some idea of that - but it still will not be the same feeling that a woman gets.

It goes just a little further for me. As well as simply wearing the clothes I want to try to experience "doing things" while wearing them. Unfortunately I can't go as far as I would like - walking in a dress and heels across the park on a breezy day; getting in and out of a car in a smart, slim skirt; dashing through the rain hampered by heels and with wet stockings - and thousands of other every-day experiences. What I can do is feel what it's like to relax and watch TV in a dress with a silky slip beneath, covering legs in nylons held up with tight suspenders, feeling what it's like to have my waist held firmly in a girdle and my chest hugged by a bra. I can know what it's like to walk down the street wearing (under my male clothes) tights and a pantie girdle; to wait for, go up the stairs and sit on a bus in a suspender belt, stockings and bra. I can try different skirts, different tops, different dresses, different petticoats, different shoes with different heels, different bras - soft, underwired, long-line, lacy - different girdles, sheer tights, control-top tights, short skirts, long skirts, big skirts, straight skirts.....all these things in every combination. I think I have some idea what women's clothes feel like.....and just a little idea of how women might feel when they wear them. I will never feel like a woman.

[sometimes_miss]

1. Does anyone here, mainly people who's born and lived as male, ever have a situation where you want to say or express your feeling like "I feel like a woman", for example when dressed up? If so, what do you actually mean?
It means that I'm experiencing something, which I believe is in a similar way to how a woman would experience it. I know that it's probably inexact; there may be subtle, or major differences. But I am convinced that those differences are not necessarily the major part of that experience.

For example: When we wear the clothes, we feel the ways that women's clothing is different from mens. It fits differently, the material is often different, and it moves differently on the body. Jewelry too; we feel and see it, and that is usually within the same experience that a woman has with the same objects. But there will still be differences in the overall experience, such as the value a woman may have for certain items which may have been given to her by a boyfriend or husband, and so those objects have a different meaning to her, than things we buy for ourselves. Women have more emotional attachments to their belongings, different meanings they wish to express by what they wear, that most men simply don't feel. Consider the turmoil of picking out an outfit. I assure you, we don't go through anything remotely close to what a woman does when she does that. Every single little thing has a special meaning to her overall 'look' (this does not include times when doing chores or simple things). Not to mention, the need not to be seen in the same outfit again, which most men have no idea why anyone would have a problem with that. Then there is the value. Why is wearing a diamond different from wearing a CZ? after all, they look identical. But I guarantee you, women 'feel' that it's 'just different', as they say.

Lots of stuff like that.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Women have more emotional attachments to their belongings...the turmoil of picking out an outfit...we don't go through anything remotely close to what a woman does when she does that. Every single little thing has a special meaning to her overall 'look' ...the need not to be seen in the same outfit again

Well I can change hetero shirt, pants, shoes, socks, jacket, tie, 5 times before deciding what to wear to go out for dinner- I think a lot of gay men do that, as well as worrying about their hair, their complexion, fingernails, etc. I also routinely worry about wearing the same outfit twice to a place, even after a year has passed.

I also get off on silk ties, sharp tailoring, designer brands, textures- and colours- don't get me started.

So yes, I think I can relate very closely to what women go through when they're dressing.


Anyone who thinks strapping on a wig and a pair of boobs changes their personality ...is fooling himself.

With respect Krisi, I disagree. I feel completely different, I act differently, I relate to others differently - when I'm fully dressed and made-up. It's a total shift of core feelings. Or perhaps I'm just plain nuts?

[Jenny22]

Thank you. Bonnie Chan, for your post and thank all of you ladies for your well reasoned thoughts in reply.

There's one word that seems to continuously appear: FEEL...the feeling of this or that as it relates to CDing or TGing. Its what the individual feels.That is the key in his (her) perception. A male, however he is presenting as a person of the opposite sex, will never really know what a female feels, but when dressed in ways others have mentioned, he (she) can certainly have the feelings that he (she) feels are those of a woman. And, its wonderful, a fantasy, but still wonderful to feel like a woman in one's own mind.

[Josie]

At times I see my self as a women. I don't really know how any other person feels at any given time and I don't really care. I only know how I feel, and I enjoying being a women sometimes. At this very moment as I type this I'm a women in Iowa named Joann Kelly.
Joann Kelly

[Teresa]

Bonnie,
I understand why you are asking the question , I know you may be looking for a definitive answer but I don't think you will get one, there are so many variables with members.

If I said I feel totally comfortable dressed, my mind and body feel in balance with being dressed does that part of me think it's a woman ?

In the other thread I replied that none of us can truly know what's in another person's brain so it's possibly wrong to tell people they can't know what it feels like .

Really even a GG can't tell us how we feel because they can never know what it's like to be a CDer, most if not all women just don't have that overlapping trait. That comes home to me quite forcibly as I'm in a DADT situation, my wife and sister in law just don't get it, but annoyingly it doesn't stop the harsh comments as if they are going to make a difference .

All I know is I was born with a female overlay or trait, the male side and female side became intertwined by my first sexual experience, from that time I became bi-gender and looking back it's probably when my GD started. I've finally come to terms with all that by accepting that CDing completes the story, I feel comfortable looking like woman but that doesn't make me a woman but as a GG put it, it makes me a very convincing one and that comment really does feel good to know .

[Sandra]

Ok GG here :)

The comment doesn't offend me but.... When I see the threads that say "I feel like a woman" my eyes roll :) How can a male say that ? how do they know what it feels like to be a woman ? Now if they say "I can probably imagine how it feels to be a woman when I do this or when I dress" then yes maybe they can, but to say that you feel like a woman, nope it don't compute. It's like me saying I know what it's feels like to be a man :D

[docrobbysherry]

I can LOOK like a woman. But, I feel like ME no matter what clothes I'm wearing.

I can't say for sure what feeling like a man is like, much less a woman. I was a man for 50+ years with no gender issues. But, I've NEVER been a woman.

[Teresa]

Sandra,
No matter what gender we can't get in each others head !

I once made the point when someone asked what a normal man thinks, I replied I can only answer that through a Cders eyes, I can't say how much influence it has on my thoughts but I usually do manage to put a different slant on things , my wife sometimes rolls her eyes but it just maybe my wiring that makes the difference .

[ReineD]

When I see the threads that say "I feel like a woman" my eyes roll :) How can a male say that ?


I can LOOK like a woman. But, I feel like ME no matter what clothes I'm wearing.

Both of these.

When CDers say, "I feel like a woman", it implies there is some universal way that women feel that the CDers have somehow tapped into. THERE ISN’T. Women experience the same feelings as men. They’re happy when they have successes and they’re disappointed when they don’t. They get angry like men, they laugh at jokes like men, they feel pressure at work like men, and the list can extend to any human emotion there is. They DON’T feel they are submissive or powerless, no more than a man might feel if someone stronger should get the better of him somehow.

Women and men feel the same things, so how can someone say they feel like someone else. I could never say I feel like my best friend, my mother, or anyone else. I can only ever just feel like me.

And so when CDers describe their enhanced feelings when they dress as "feeling like a woman", it rather describes an enhanced feeling. A more accurate way to describe this might be, "I feel [fill in the blank: excited/happy/great/high/aroused/etc] when I present as a woman". This is not how women feel when they go about their business on a day-to-day basis. We feel rather neutral, until something happens that triggers an emotion of some sort, like feeling annoyed if the person at the cash register in front of us takes much longer than is customary to transact their business.

Members here may respond that women must feel something that men don't feel, if they are dressed in an attractive manner and men should express their admiration for them (if men should think they are sexy). Well, I can tell you that I've been out with my sons when women expressed their admiration for them (flirting), and they felt the same way a woman does when it happens to her. It made them feel good.

[Lana Mae]

I am not sure but I think (and agree) what Sandra and Reine are saying. It is like when someone has a tragedy and some one trying to console them says I know how you feel. NO, you will never know how they feel! Women are women and men are men and this is more hormonal and how individual brains are wired. We are not in their skin. We can think we feel the way they feel but it is not the same. It is all individual whether women or men. Meaning no disrespect to anyone. Hugs Lana Mae

[TinaMc]

OTOH, if I put on a ludicrously age-inappropriate mini skirt and go "Oh, I feel like a 2 dollar prossy in this skirt" I'm really not suggesting that the skirt has magically given me insight to the life and existence of an inexpensive sex worker. Are we possibly reading too much into the intentions of people who say "I feel like a woman"?

[AllieSF]

So, many who have replied here so far have been very active on this site for a long time. I always wonder why so many have to go to direct definitions to refute other member's statement, which may state one thing and mean something else like how one feels when dressed. We old timers here should have learned by now that to state one feels like a woman probably means feels like their own idea of what a woman feels like and to realize that not even women truly knows how another woman may feel under some similar circumstance. Each human feels, thinks and acts differently from the next based on the circumstances. As a group, many woman may act similarly, but not necessarily exactly the same.

So, why not learn to let these types of statements pass and worry about bigger issues? What about, "I feel free", "I feel like I am flying", I feel empowered", and so on? They are all based on how that individual relates to what is happening to them and not necessarily the lireal meaning of the statement. To the OP, I think you answered your own questions very well in your OP.

PS: In answer to the post above me, Yes, we are reading too much into a simple phrase that is used in different forms to express how one may be experiencing something.

[Jenny22]

Sandra stated,"Now if they say "I can probably imagine how it feels to be a woman when I do this or when I dress" then yes maybe they can,..."

Might I suggest that everyone, hopefully, will accept this as being what a male CD or TG MEANS when he says he feels like a woman, so he doesn't get clobbered by saying it. Ditto for Reine's new, similar comment on this Post.

[Jesse Six]

Sometimes, when the combination of make-up, wig and lighting are right, I can get 4" from the mirror and almost pass out with happiness, because I recognise the woman in me looking back. Those are the purest moments of feeling feminine that I've experienced, and it touches me to my core. I feel like I'm looking into a woman's eyes, not a man's. The first time it happened I started crying.

Nikki, that's amazing - I had an almost identical experience! The first time I ever cross-dressed, I looked in the mirror, and it was as if I had been blind all my life and my eyes finally opened. It wasn't a man with in a dress - I could see a woman in the mirror, even despite the awful makeup. Something right in the eyes told me that all my questions were about to be answered. Yes, I also started crying at that point.

My life hadn't been the same since that afternoon. It was the closest thing I've ever had to a religious experience.


Edit: The discussion is centering on "what does it mean to feel like a woman". I am ACUTELY aware that I don't know the experience of women. I've lived with enough women, my mother, wife, daughter, and have observed their lives, to know that my experience is not their experience. I don't actually know exactly what it's like to walk in their shoes, from childhood to old age. I know that putting on the clothes for an evening out at a nightclub does not make a woman out of me.

However, there is an unmistakable, unrelenting feeling inside me that I long to be female. That I wish for the 'furniture in my mind' to be different. That I feel bad whenever I experience masculine range of emotions. That it gives me profound joy when a stranger addresses me as female. So that's what *I* mean when I say "feel like a woman".

I'm also acutely aware that I will never be 100% a 'woman'. No amount of hormones or surgery will change my chromosomes, or the fact that I went through male puberty. The best I can hope for is 'trans woman'. Which, I've decided lately, is good enough for me to try.

[ReineD]

Women are women and men are men and this is more hormonal and how individual brains are wired.

I partially agree with this. Women are women and men are men but only in terms of biology, which is their bodies and reproductive functions. Everything else is shared, or in other words, is not gendered.

You mention that individual brains are wired differently and this is true, but this, again, is not gendered into "male wiring" and "female wiring". Surely you've seen in families where the daughter's personality is more like her father's, and the son's personality is more like his mother's, yet neither the son nor daughter experiences any gender issues? Both men and women have the ability to experience the full breadth of human emotion and they have equal abilities to develop similar interests. Generations ago in our society, interests were more gendered than they are today. There was a wider chasm between what men and women did during the 1950s than today. But this is no longer true. And interests are influenced by social constructs, they are not innate. If a girl grows up being told that girls don't tinker with cars, she won't. But if she grows up in a world that tells her she is perfectly capable to fix her own car, she will.

Last year my car battery died. I wanted to save money so I called a good female friend who also likes to save money, (she isn't paid as much as the men in her department), and she came over to help me remove it, drove us to the automotive store to buy a new one, and drove us back so we could install it. Does this mean we have male brain wiring? I don't think so. :)


Sometimes, when the combination of make-up, wig and lighting are right, I can get 4" from the mirror and almost pass out with happiness, because I recognise the woman in me looking back. Those are the purest moments of feeling feminine that I've experienced, and it touches me to my core. I feel like I'm looking into a woman's eyes, not a man's. The first time it happened I started crying.

Nikki, women don't experience what you describe. We're not struggling with identify issues, so when we look at ourselves in the mirror, we don't experience what you do. What you experienced was deep happiness over having achieved a physical transformation that erased your male gender cues, which I think is rather common among this forum's membership if they achieve the same thing. But, respecfully, feeling happiness because we look like women is not something that we experience. We rather know we are women, because we are, and this doesn't bring us to the depths of happiness as it did with you. We feel rather neutral about it, the same way a man feels about being male. Does this make sense?

[ellbee]

"You mention that individual brains are wired differently and this is true, but this, again, is not gendered into 'male wiring' and 'female wiring'."


This guy disagrees...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkZvLHiaHQc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkZvLHiaHQc

[ReineD]

*sigh*

The man in your video is not up on current research. He is even mentioned here:

L8DPLBrwzkw

I saw a great video where they brought the cameras into their actual experiments, so people could draw conclusions for themselves. They explained that various personality traits are on a spectrum, experienced by both males and females rather than placed in gendered boxes of male traits and female traits. I cannot remember where I saw this (one of the science websites), but if I run across it, I'll post it here. Your views will change.

But, you may be taking this off topic.

[sometimes_miss]

We rather know we are women, because we are, and this doesn't bring us to the depths of happiness as it did with you. We feel rather neutral about it, the same way a man feels about being male. Does this make sense?
Well said. And it brings up an interesting point; the 'feeling neutral about it' part.
I think that potentially, many of us don't: 'Feel neutral', about being male. Sure, we know we are. But that neutral feeling gets messed up somehow. So something in our heads tells us that no, that's not who we are. Even though all the evidence points in that direction. It's like driving on a two lane blacktop, where the center of the road is crowned. Driving in either lane, will make you need to ever so slightly continuously have to correct your direction, or you'll gradually swerve off the road. At least, that's what it's like for me. A very low intensity, feeling that being male is not what I am. Not neutral at all.

[Jesse Six]

ReineD, is this the research you're referring to? Where the scientists classified a wide variety of behaviors as either "primarily masculine" or "primarily feminine", and then had people list which of the behaviors they take part in?

What they found is that the majority of participants engaged in a combination of male and female behaviors. A very small minority engaged 100% in male or female behaviors (the 'hyper masculine' or 'hyper feminine' among us). But for most of the population, gendered behavior was not black and white.

[ReineD]

Not sure Jesse. This was a video I saw on either a science website, or maybe something like the Discovery Channel (or other science channel), or maybe it was even the BBC. If you have a link would you send it to me? I think I may have posted it here but it would take me forever to go through my history.

Thanks! :)




I think that potentially, many of us don't: 'Feel neutral', about being male.

Sorry, SometimesMiss, I should have specified that I meant men who do not crossdress. I've no doubt that many members here don't feel neutral about being male.

[Ressie]

Of course I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. But I've felt like a woman in my own mind. As Sandra put it, it's my imagination but there may also be something hormonal involved with some of us.

[ReineD]

That's a good point, Ressie. You said "some of us".

As with everything else, we cannot say that all MtF members in this forum even feel the same way. Some people have something hormonal happening, while others may well intensely seek the feelings described here because it's all a part of the fantasy. Yes we do have members whose genders do not mesh with their bodies, but we also have a significant number of members for whom it is a delightful fantasy.

[Curiouser&Curiouser]

Good God (Goddess?), this topic makes me happy. I love how everyone is trying so hard to express their true selves, and express their feelings of offense or defensiveness without attacks. It makes me proud to be a small part of such a community.

After posting in the other thread about this yesterday, I thought about this for a while and came to a small realization about what I mean when I say I feel like a woman. For me, when I look in the mirror and see what looks more like a woman than my unadorned self, and feel good about it, I accept myself in that moment for being feminine. It borders on feeling like a woman, but there tends to be a little something missing. However, when I am presenting fem with others whom I consider to be women, and they accept me in the same way, that validation definitely makes me feel like a woman in that moment. It turns out that no matter how much I like the high heels and lipstick, those are not the actual things that create the feelings. They are simply ways for me to accept myself as fem, which in turn gives me the ability to let myself be accepted as fem by others, which creates a "feeling like a woman" moment.

Reine, I've always appreciated your wisdom and reason on this forum. I found your comment about GGs never really "feeling happiness because they look like women" compelling - it resonates with things my wife has told me as well. However, modifying your car example, can I propose something that I think may be a related feeling? Say that when you picked up the battery for the car at the automotive store you'd been treated in a chauvinistic way, as if women shouldn't be able to change a battery. This would reinforce the social norms we all have learned to loathe and could degrade you self worth. But if, instead, you'd been treated very professionally and had your opinions validated - perhaps even in ways you though no one ever would - perhaps in that moment you'd feel validated and, perhaps after a lifetime of experiences of degradation, you might wonder if this is what a man feels like. And having that validation repeated would reinforce that. You don't think you're a man, but being given the power and acceptance of one might evoke certain feelings that you'd associate with maleness. And, the freedom to express yourself as a man might also happen...

I dunno, just a thought.

TL;DR - For me, acceptance as a woman, either by myself or by others, is what I think I mean when I say "I feel like a woman."

- Sandra

[ellbee]

*sigh*

The man in your video is not up on current research. He is even mentioned here:



I saw a great video where they brought the cameras into their actual experiments, so people could draw conclusions for themselves. They explained that various personality traits are on a spectrum, experienced by both males and females rather than placed in gendered boxes of male traits and female traits. I cannot remember where I saw this (one of the science websites), but if I run across it, I'll post it here. Your views will change.

But, you may be taking this off topic.

But, *we* are not.

Because if there is no such thing as a male or female brain, as your video states, then it's perfectly acceptable & correct when a CD'er says they feel like a woman! :yippee:

So, thank you for that. :)


Anyway, yes, it is a bit odd when even professional "experts" such as scientists can't even agree on the most basic of things, wouldn't you say? What do you do then? :strugglin

I know what I do, anyway: Say screw them & rely on my *own* experiences & observations. And those have shown me that typically speaking, men & women are wired differently. And isn't it "weird" how so many in the audience of my video laughed at so many things as they nodded their heads in agreement? Could it be that all of those people knew exactly what he was saying, as they could totally relate based on *their* experiences & observations? And in essence, maybe there is some truth to all that. Because otherwise, they'd be silent & uncomfortable & have confused looks on their faces like, "What the heck are you talking about, dude??"

Hmm... :thinking:

[Bonnie Chan]

Wow, thanks much everyone for your well stated opinions. This is really interesting. I appreciate all your thoughts on this.

From what I've read so far, here's my conclusion so far:
- All male CDs here who say "I feel like a woman", they only mean some aspects of being a woman that a male doesn't usually have, such as a feeling of wearing woman cloth, being sexy, having breasts, being accepted as female from other people, etc. No one are claiming they know how woman feels everyday doing regular chores, working, etc.
- All male CDs seem to understand when other male CD says "I feel like a woman" that it means the above mentioned, though everyone exact definition will still be different, though in the similar spectrum.
- Based on 2 GGs here, it seems "I feel like a woman" is being interpreted differently as claiming one knows how woman feels.

So, now I have a question to GGs here: I can see how "I feel like a woman" can be interpreted as claiming to know how woman feels. I can see it the same as saying "I feel the same as a woman", and that really does have specific meaning that one claims to have all feeling like a woman. But what I don't understand is why can't we come to accept that when a male say "I feel like a woman", it doesn't mean that way? It's just a matter of language to express one's feeling. It's easily understood by male CDs here and so we use that broadly. So why not let it go and come to understand it doesn't mean anything deeply?
If this were to be said publicly with other people, then I will say it probably needs more discussions on whether this is really appropriate and whether it would likely cause bad consequences/misunderstanding. But in the forum here, at least, I think it should be fine to say "I feel like a woman" because it's an accepted language between most people here.


The comment doesn't offend me but.... When I see the threads that say "I feel like a woman" my eyes roll :) How can a male say that ? how do they know what it feels like to be a woman ? Now if they say "I can probably imagine how it feels to be a woman when I do this or when I dress" then yes maybe they can, but to say that you feel like a woman, nope it don't compute. It's like me saying I know what it's feels like to be a man :D
Thanks Sandra, it's a relieve to me to know that at least this is not rude in anyway. Btw, I find the term "I feel like a woman" different from "I know what it feels like to be a woman". It's more abstract, not having a specific meaning (as you can see from so many opinions here :))
Let's look at it different way. What if someone says "I feel like a stick", what does that mean? To be honest, I don't know too :) I just want to see if it can mean differently from different perspective that all of us can share, because we all know what the stick is. To me, my best understanding of this would be, maybe he/she means that he/she feels his/her body is not flexible and cannot move much, like a stick? It's more like one saying "I feel like being a stick" to me. I must admit I'm confused too, and that's the point, that when one says "I feel like a <some noun here>", it's very abstract and we should not assume it means anything specific.


When CDers say, "I feel like a woman", it implies there is some universal way that women feel that the CDers have somehow tapped into. THERE ISN’T.
Reine, I'd like to say that, IMO, "I feel like a woman" does not really imply anything. If anything, it begs for more questions of what one actually really means. But of course I say that from my own perspective. You might think differently and I'm willing to hear more how/why we think differently. I'd love to understand more. I think in the end, this might be just a language issue because the term is too abstract for some of us and we use it instinctively so. But it seems to mean specific thing to most GGs here, which I'm not sure why yet. I don't want to say this might be because of our physical gender brain wiring difference yet as I believe all human beings are capable of the same thing given time and experience. One thing that I am different from most of us here is that English is not my native language, so I may understand it differently from lacking experiences. But I'll try my best :)


And so when CDers describe their enhanced feelings when they dress as "feeling like a woman", it rather describes an enhanced feeling. A more accurate way to describe this might be, "I feel [fill in the blank: excited/happy/great/high/aroused/etc] when I present as a woman". This is not how women feel when they go about their business on a day-to-day basis. We feel rather neutral, until something happens that triggers an emotion of some sort, like feeling annoyed if the person at the cash register in front of us takes much longer than is customary to transact their business.
I think you might be missing a point where CDs "feel like a woman" differently from woman "feel like a woman". Yes, I agree woman, just like other male, feel all kinds of things similarly. But that's not a point when CDs say "I feel like a woman". To me, it's more like saying "I feel [happy/excited/aroused/etc] because I feel like I'm a woman now, even though I'm male" and that doesn't imply woman must feel the same way I do, because you're not "male who feel like a woman".

Again, thanks much everybody for the replies! And I'd love to hear more of this :)

- Bonnie

[ReineD]

However, when I am presenting fem with others whom I consider to be women, and they accept me in the same way, that validation definitely makes me feel like a woman in that moment.

You say, "Others whom you consider to be women" ... do you mean a TG support group, or do you mean a group of GGs. And if it is a group of GGs and they accept you for who you are, how do you know they think of you as a woman. Might they not simply accept you as a male who enjoys presenting as a woman? Because we cannot erase from our minds the fact that the person in front of us is a genetic male, no matter how supportive we are.



Say that when you picked up the battery for the car at the automotive store you'd been treated in a chauvinistic way, as if women shouldn't be able to change a battery. This would reinforce the social norms we all have learned to loathe and could degrade you self worth. But if, instead, you'd been treated very professionally and had your opinions validated - perhaps even in ways you though no one ever would - perhaps in that moment you'd feel validated and, perhaps after a lifetime of experiences of degradation, you might wonder if this is what a man feels like. And having that validation repeated would reinforce that. You don't think you're a man, but being given the power and acceptance of one might evoke certain feelings that you'd associate with maleness. And, the freedom to express yourself as a man might also happen...

I agree that no one wants to be discriminated against for their choices, whether it is a woman buying a car battery or a man presenting as a woman in public.

But getting back to the example of buying a car battery, if the person at the counter had been blatently chauvinistic, I would have asked to speak to the manager and would have told the manager why he was losing my business. Then I would have purchased the battery at a different store. As it was, the guy at the counter answered all my questions politely, just as he would have, had I been a man. Throughout my life, I have never accepted that I should be treated differently than men. Even when I was a little girl in the 1960s.





Anyway, yes, it is a bit odd when even professional "experts" such as scientists can't even agree on the most basic of things, wouldn't you say? What do you do then? :strugglin

You read a lot and you learn to tell the difference between pop culture icons and scientists! :p Mark Gungor (your video), is a pastor and self-styled expert on the American family and pop culture, for goodness sakes. This isn't science. Where are his brain studies. Where is his data. What sort of training does he have, to understand the neuroscience of brains compared to a neuro scientist.

Below isn't the video I was looking for, but you might find it interesting. Lise Eliot, Professor of Neuroscience at the Chicago Medical School, debunks pink brain vs blue brain in a 2015 lecture. It's a bit long but highly informative. She cites meta studies, so it's not her own private research she is talking about. This is a consensus. Brain sex differences are largely caused by developmental factors (experiences after birth due to parental and societal gender bias) and not from any innate hard wiring. Also, boys’ and girls’ brains have much more overlap than differences. In other words, when members here say they have female brains, they need to know that most men who do not crossdress also share traits with women (and women share traits with men), simply because there are no significant differences between girl and boy brains. I'll still try to find the other pink brain/blue brain video I mentioned earlier. They had a more engaging way of saying the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og9xC6S2MaY



I think you might be missing a point where CDs "feel like a woman" differently from woman "feel like a woman". ... To me, it's more like saying "I feel [happy/excited/aroused/etc] because I feel like I'm a woman now, even though I'm male"

Then we agree! :)

This just goes to show how important it is to be precise with language, especially if you are talking to people who are not like you, like a wife, gf, friends, the GGs in this forum, etc. Other people read the threads here, not just CDers.

In your OP you asked about using the statement "I feel like a woman". I'm assuming you were talking about saying it to other people than CDers? It makes sense that if you say it to another CDer, they'll understand where you're coming from, but the rest of us can only take it literally because we don't share your experience. And as you yourself pointed out, there's a difference between "I feel like a woman" and "I feel [happy/excited/aroused/etc]".

[Rachelakld]

For me "feel like a woman" means someone is probably treating me as if I was a woman or
In my female mode, I've increased empathy, patience, respect that I don't normally experience in male mode, so another meaning for me is that a certain aspect has moved from my normal male mode, to one that more identifies with females when they are in a feminine mode.

[ellbee]

Yes, Reine, I'm fully aware of who he is -- someone who has plenty of real-world experience in understanding how men's & women's minds work, and who helps bridge that gap so they can have happier, more fulfilling & more successful marriages. Of course, I see you conveniently fail to even mention the university study he brought up in the clip, if you must rely on those scientific studies you seem to love so much, while poo-pooing any kind of real-life stuff. Again, believe what you're told by the authoritative "experts"-- not what your own eyes & ears actually see. Because they always know better, right?

I'm also quite aware of what Slate is. ;)


Anyway, not for nothing, but you do realize that on some level, you're also implying by all this that trans-people are, in a sense, full of crap, to put it bluntly. Just making sure, here. :)

[ReineD]

Of course, I see you conveniently fail to even mention the university study he brought up in the clip,

There was nothing in the clip that indicated the study title, authors, etc, that I could look up in order to read it. I cannot comment on things I have not verified. I have no clue how a "nothing box" relates to what we're talking about here.



Anyway, not for nothing, but you do realize that on some level, you're also implying by all this that trans-people are, in a sense, full of crap, to put it bluntly.

Saying there is no significant differences between the "hardwiring" of female and male brains is NOT saying that transsexualism does not exist. If a person does not feel connected to their body, this has nothing to do with whether they like to tinker with cars or play with puppies. I also find your insinuations offensive.

[Eryn]

As a TS who has been on this road for a while I have to say that I still don't know what it is like to "feel like a woman". I feel like me, and "me" generally feels more comfortable while presenting and interacting with others as a female. That's it. Being a woman is not a magical nirvana.

[Becky Blue]

When I am at work and I am a male I have male body parts and I am dressed as a male...Do I feel like a male? I have no idea, I don't know what a male feels like. All I know is what i feel.

Today i was at a shopping mall (in male mode) I saw a woman in a pretty dress and all I could think about is how badly I wanted to be walking around in that dress. I walked past a laser hair removal place and all I could think about was how desperately I would love to laser all my chest hair off.... what does all of this make me feel?

There is a very interesting BBC documentary by Dr Michael Mosely called is your brain male or female. There is very good new science that shows there are significant differences in a number of aspects of our brains. However it doesn't mean that its black and white males can have many aspects that are more common in female brains.

One part i remember (and please excuse the total lack of scientific terms in my recall) was male brains are 'wired' with more back to front & front to back connectors, female brains are left to right & right to left. So for example that helps explain some common generalisations such as:

Males are generally better at reading maps because the parts of the brain that do direction have more connections to the visual parts of the brain.

Females are generally better at multi skilling as the left and right parts of their brains are better connected than males.

Interestingly I can't read a map and am quite good at multi skilling

[Bonnie Chan]

Okay, if we really need to be precise with the language definition of "feel like a woman" when CD says it to other people who don't know where CD is coming from, we need to look at the standard definition in dictionary, which I did some search and here's what I found:

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/feel+like
feel like someone or something
to have the feel of someone or something; to seem to be someone or something according to feel or touch. Ex. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy. This thing feels like a rubber hose, not a hot dog.

This is the closest I can find that can apply to "I feel like a woman" sentence, which according to this, it would mean 1) I have the feel of a woman, or 2) I seem to be a woman according to feel or touch.
In an example "Whoever this is feels like Tom", what does this mean to you? It probably means that whoever that is, he looks like Tom. And looking is one way to feel something from visual. I think the confusion is that the word feel can mean mainly two different things: 1) the feeling of inner mind, or 2) the feeling from outside, including five senses (touch/sight/smell/hearing/taste). So I'd say it's still not clear how other people would perceive "I feel like a woman" would mean and we can't really jump to any conclusion what they would think. Again, I think the language definition of this is too abstract and it's not fair to say that non-CDers people would all think it means one thing and not the other.
But I think it's fair to say that if a CDer should ever want to say this in public, he/she probably better elaborates on what he/she means more to make other people understand clearly.

At the very least, I think everyone here in this forum by now should understand that when CD says "I feel like a woman", what do they actually mean. Right?

- Bonnie

[ellbee]

I have no clue how a "nothing box" relates to what we're talking about here.

Perhaps that's because men's & women's brains are wired differently? :D



I also find your insinuations offensive.

Well, at least you now know how some of yours come across. :)



...this has nothing to do with whether they like to tinker with cars or play with puppies.

This isn't about actions or interests. This is about various stark differences between how typical men & typical women actually think & feel and how their minds typically work. But feel free to continue to ignore those scientific studies which support what I've said & are easily Google-able. Plenty out there.

[ReineD]

Laura, the only thing I can suggest is to listen carefully to the video I posted. If you want to provide me with details about the study you wanted me to comment on, I'll be happy to do this. Also, do read about the neurobiology of learning and memory.

Until you've done all of that, you won't be able to learn. You'll glom onto an entertaining 5 minute video that agrees with what you want to hear, and you'll put everything else down. In a way, it's just like school. To develop an understanding about something, you need to take the time to learn it. If you don't want to do that even in a more general sense, then I'm sorry but when you knock the science because it doesn't fit in with how you would like it to be, we can't have a meaningful conversation.

[ellbee]

And I suggest you start with this, perhaps? :)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

[Becky Blue]

Interesting article here
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/are-male-and-female-brains-wired-differently-dr-michael-mosley-says-yes/news-story/978649f4373b6b8e833aebb933b82dc3

and yes there are many people with counter views, to date clearly not enough is known

[Curiouser&Curiouser]

Reine,

There's no question the group was primarily trans, both male and female, as well as a few cisgendered folks. Emotionally, it was irrelevant what gender they were though - they felt like women to me and with little exception I had no trouble accepting them as such. So when I was treated as a normal person, while presenting fem, I experienced something I enjoyed and I would attribute to being a woman. Certainly, their nature may have made it easier for them to do so, and for that I love them, but that did not dilute the feeling in any way. I might be diluted, but the feeling wasn't :)

As far as batteries: you sound like a strong person who doesn't need others' affirmation of her place in the world; I envy that. My wife is similarly self-determined and it is something I strive for. And it is certainly possible that my weak sense of self leaves me more vulnerable to these sorts of feelings which don't resonate with your experience. But it does seem that there is room for me to feel like a woman in an esoteric sense, while understanding very little of how hard you've had to fight for your place or the world you've had to live in. At least, as long as I'm contrite about my place in this women's world!

Bonnie,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though you're seeking concession for CDs who use the phrase in question on this forum. I applaud that; tolerance and understanding are important in creating community and this a doubly important place for that. But, for me, what is missing is the acknowledgement of the gravity and reality of the situation.

When I came out to my wife a few months ago I tried desperately to protect her and tell her it was no big deal. It wasn't until I acknowledged the real implications of what my gender dysphoria were that we could start talking about the meaning of it in our relationship. I needed to come to terms with the pain it would mean for us, rather than trying to whitewash our situation with unsubstantiated reassurances.

In this case, at least from my perspective, we should acknowledge two things: that the phrase "I feel like a woman" is loaded and carries a great deal of meaning any time it is used. Also, that when used this phrase does not always mean the same thing, even when uttered by seemingly similar prototypical CDers. Once we admit this, then we can talk about our sensitivities and our cultural influences and our personal experiences. Until then we're likely to be stuck with a semantic debate.

Don't get me wrong; I love me a good ole fashioned semantic debate...

- Sandra

[ReineD]

Laura, I'll take the time to read the wiki article to see if what they say fundamentally differs with Lisa Eliot and get back to you. You might want to read it in detail too, and also watch the video fully, so we can make comparisons.

Becky, in your article Mosley says that his own daughter defies the point he is making! Still, it's an advertisement for a weekly show that presumably hasn't aired yet? And who knows, they may well come to the same conclusions as Lisa Eliot.

If you will listen to the second video I posted (Lisa Eliot), you will see that there are indeed some differences between male and female brains, but the differences are insignificant compared to all the overlaps. All the things that form personality have been measured to be close in males and females.

... or am I talking to the wind. lol. Is anyone actually bothering to look at the details, or are people arguing in favor of what they want to argue about without any analysis of the details. :p


Reine,

There's no question the group was primarily trans, both male and female, as well as a few cisgendered folks. Emotionally, it was irrelevant what gender they were though - they felt like women to me and with little exception I had no trouble accepting them as such. So when I was treated as a normal person, while presenting fem, I experienced something I enjoyed and I would attribute to being a woman.

I don't blame you for feeling wonderful when you're accepted, if you've felt all your life you wouldn't be. If being accepted as a woman while you present as one, makes you feel you are one, then I'm glad for you, although our definitions of "woman" might differ. Is this who you feel you are inside all the time, and the acceptance of your presentation is validation for who you feel you are?

I don't know if you are transitioning or not, but to me it's a permanent thing, not something to switch in and out of. When people don't transition, the choice is to effectively live as male. I hope you won't take this the wrong way. When someone switches in and out of womanhood by choice, I should think this calls for a different definition. I won't presume to supply one here because I don't know where you are with all of this.



But it does seem that there is room for me to feel like a woman in an esoteric sense, while understanding very little of how hard you've had to fight for your place or the world you've had to live in.

I think if you had outings other than the trans group, you'd see that people will not treat you badly. Most people are polite and if they know, they don't let on. And I've not had to fight for my place in the world. I always just took it, unaware that men thought me "less than", even if they did. :)

[Bonnie Chan]

Sandra, to be honest, I'm not exactly sure if I actually wanted to seek a concession for CD. The real reason I created this thread originally was to get more opinions about all this to see how everyone is thinking, for educational purpose. I'm trying my best to be neutral about this but I must admit I might have been biased on something since I'm a CD too. So I'm not really sure.

I agree that this term has a lot of meaning and that's what I'm trying to emphasize too, that one should never assume this would mean or imply anything. From a lot of opinions here, I can see that it rather depends on the speaker and surrounding context to know what it would actually mean.

- Bonnie

[Curiouser&Curiouser]

Reine, thank you for the kind words. Transitioning isn't on my horizon, if anything I consider myself gender fluid. But I'm VERY new to my journey and can't even claim knowledge of that. All I can say is how I felt at the time - it's entirely possible that I'll look back at these comments and laugh some day. My definition of woman certainly seems to change pretty often right now...

I realized earlier that a part of this, for me, was feeling like an outsider, or that I'd been having to fake my masculinity when in a situation that I would consider part of a woman's life. I was "man of honor" at my best friend's wedding - I attended both of my sisters' live births - there are many others; but in all of them I felt that I had to create a wall that I was still a guy, that I wasn't a female in this space, even if that was important to me. But finally being accepted as female was so freeing... I find it hard to even explain. Sorry, it's late, and I'm gushing.

Bonnie, thank you. Reasoned discourse is something we sorely need today. Keep up the good work :)

- Sandra

[NicoleScott]

Bonnie, thank you. Reasoned discourse is something we sorely need today. Keep up the good work :)


I agree.

The next time I'm sick I'll be careful not to say "I feel like crap". I'll either be scolded with "you can't possibly know that" - or worse - "you should know".

[Lorileah]

What it feels like to me to be a woman: I feel, hope. Then I feel that hope become despair when I see women treated as "less than." I feel fear. Fear for my safety in public places. I feel the need to be MORE cautious in said places because I feel like a TARGET. I feel anger when I am patronized. I feel belittled. I feel annoyance that some men believe I am here for their entertainment and sexual enjoyment. I feel confused when I am told I don't "know" things like how a car works, or how to build something or fix something. That it would be beyond my comprehension. Or that I should step aside and let a "real man" do it. I feel sad when I see how the world treats others.

I feel beautiful...then I feel ugly because people put so much stock in physical attributes. Or they place their idea of what a woman is and it is based of sexuality... how they believe a woman should dress to attract, please or seduce men.

How does t feel to be a woman? It can feel right but often it feels unequal disenfranchised or minimized.

[Lana Mae]

Lorileah, I am sorry that you feel all that negativety. Women, any woman is not less than but usually better than. Do not know why you are a target more so than anybody else. Only BOYS believe women are here for their entertainment and for sex, not real men. Many women can fix things better than"real men", I could not program the remote but my wife could!!We are all sad about how the world treats others. Be beautiful for yourself-no one else unless you want to share! I believe in equal rights for both sexes. Special hugs Lana Mae

[ellbee]

Laura, I'll take the time to read the wiki article to see if what they say fundamentally differs with Lisa Eliot and get back to you.

Bonus question? :D


I'm genuinely curious what you make of all the intersex infants who either had genital surgery or had a condition where they didn't appear to have male genitals, and so they were raised as a girl...

All the while, being constantly depressed, even to the point of feeling suicidal, knowing & even insisting that they are a boy, eventually rejecting their nurtured gender, etc., & finally living as a boy and being much happier.

After all, if there are no true differences, and are only socialized instead of biological, as I believe you suggest, then surely these children would have been perfectly content living their whole lives as female, no? :strugglin


I'm sure you're already aware of such cases, but here are a few:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

http://secondnexus.com/social-commentary-and-trends/the-intersex-children-of-salinas/

http://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/597816/Joe-Holliday-She-s-a-boy-This-Morning-Eamonn-Holems-Ruth-Langsford

[Becky Blue]

Read Julia Serano's superb book Whipping Girl. She is not only a very talented author, a geneticist, a trans woman and an activist. In that book she talks about the separation of sex and gender. A person's sex refers to their physical traits such as genitals, reproductive systems etc. Culturally we assign a person as male or female based on their genitalia. Whereas gender is assigned based on their identity, which can be far more fluid. Her book is very interesting and thought provoking.

[DrFabulous0]

The operative word here is like, sometimes I feel like poop, but I'm not poop, sometimes I feel like a million dollars, bit I'm not a million dollars, sometimes I feel like a woman....
I see no reason to take any offence at simple semantics, let people feel how they like and express that however they want.

[ellbee]

Sometimes you feel like a nut -- like at the 5-second mark...? :heehee:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeibzLZn2hU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeibzLZn2hU

[Mary ElizabethJordan]

I have always my entire life felt like a Woman trapped inside a mans body. I Iook forward to the day when I can be a complete Woman.

[Dana44]

As one who has been with countless weomen through life., I know a bit about them. For example once I looked for a very feminine woman.. Never found one. But I did date a few CD's and on those relationships they were the most feminine woman that I ever saw. So feminine traits are known by Trans CD types. But is that womanhood. I felt they were women and looked it. They just had different plumbing but they looked at themselves as woman and looked good on dates. That was years ago for me. When we say that we feel like a woman don't mean were are trying to be full woman. I think many of us know what feminine traits are and many CD's do feel like they are and they are likely more desired than TS folks because they are still boys. So when a CD says Gees I feel like a woman today, By golly let him. Know one ever knows except the shadow. Also if you are out and about. One has to act like one. Right? I was out last night in a club and a band was there. when I was leaving I gave the band a thumbs up. I noticed that they was an all girl band. They told me I looked great. I am older and to be told that makes your day.

[sometimes_miss]

Perhaps that's because men's & women's brains are wired differently?
There are no 'wires', this isn't something simple, as much as so many people wish it was. Every brain is different. Or we'd all think the same. There are no simple discernable major differences in easily observable physical structure that can explain why men and women think in different ways. The differences between men's and women's brains will be found at the molecular level, patterns of connections, and the electrochemical reactions that occur which cause or result in thoughts; problem is, you'll find that all those bonds are also different even between identical twins. We're quite far away from being able to analyse that and be able to compare and assign which molecule bonds result or cause each thought. Looking for simple answers to this will just make one more confused, because there is no SIMPLE answer, and as of yet, we don't have the complicated answer.

Then you have to add to the fact that our brains aren't ever 'finished'. Every time you add new information, something in your brain changes. New connections are made, others are broken.....at the molecular level. And no, you can't see it by looking in an ear.

You can actually intentionally forget something. Which means, that whatever way that memory was stored, can be partially or completely destroyed, just by thinking in a certain way (whether it's done consciously or subconsciously).

Just some food for thought, for those who think they're likely to get an answer to this anytime soon.

[Bonnie Chan]

I'm not sure about wiring differently. But I think there are indeed some differences between men's and women's brains. For example, why do men often better at <math> subject, while women are often better at <biology> subject? Is there any society guidance that says men should be good at math and women should be good at biology? I'm not aware of any society pressure that says men/women need to be good at particular subjects. (I'm not saying men are in fact better with math and women better with biology, just an example, but I'm sure there're subjects that are toward one gender.)

But of course a lot of other things are affected by cultural or how one was raised up as a kid. Such as why women cry easier than men. This is pretty much because of how society expect men to be strong and crying is considered weak, while women are okay to be weak already and they don't get trained to not cry. If a boy cry, he would get humiliated by others, and then learn that crying is bad for himself. If a girl cry, she does not get treated badly, oppositely, she may get sympathized even more and so she feels okay with crying.

So, it's hard to say which differences between men and women are really from our bio until society can view women and men as the same, which I think it's nearly impossible. In the end, our physical body differences will guide society to view women and men differently anyway.

- Bonnie

[Kate T]

As Reine and a few others have pointed out, there is bugger all evidence that male and female brains are spectacularly different anatomically or physiologically AS WE CURRENTLY UNDERSTAND.

I have grown up around medicine. I used to play on the computers for the first CT scanner is Australia at Prince of Wales Hospital where my mother was head of Radiology. My professional training means that I see CT's and MRI's almost daily and I have made a point of understanding what they are, how they are produced, what they can and can't do, what they do and don't say. I've subscribed to Journals and read more articles on transgender theory than most psych's. The only conclusion that I've been able to arrive at: we really don't understand transgender identification on a purely biomedical basis. We know lots about how it manifests and develops and looks but we have NO IDEA of causative agents, IF there are any.

We must also be cautious about what we call "meta" studies. A true meta analysis needs to be published and have a clear method for selecting studies for inclusion. Just saying "i've read lots and here are the good studies" is not a meta analysis. That is an expert opinion. Caution must also be exhibited in using the results from studies to supply evidence for a different question than the original study. The continued misuse by Mr McHugh et al of Celia Dejhne's longitudinal study on outcomes for transexuals in Sweden is a classic example. Mr McHugh and Meyer are also guilty of presenting personal "expert" opinion as a meta analysis without publishing their methods for selecting included studies in recent publishings in pseudo science non peer reviewed journals like "The New Atlantis".

This article here:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/girl-brain-boy-brain/
by Dr Lise Eliot is interesting but is also a good example of how we must be careful about how we interpret results. In the article she quotes an MRI study that appears to demonstrate a difference in a certain region of the brain that correlates with a test of gender identification. Deeper digging however reveals that this test of gender identification was developed in 1975 based on a questionnaire of stereotypically feminine and masculine gender characteristics. Stereotypical in 1975! Dr Eliot goes on to conclude that given that a follow up study appeared to demonstrate this area of the brain changed in size correlating to gender from childhood, defined as age 7 - 17. Dr Eliot makes the argument that this therefore implies gender changes to the brain are thus developed through environmental and social influences during childhood. It is a well argued assessment. I am extraordinarily cautious however as such articles and arguments are often distorted and used to justify "coercive" or "directional" reparative therapies as used by Zucker and Bradley et al, therapies that we have very good evidence are at best ineffective and at worst harmful.

People think science is precise. You get a yes or no answer. Thats not really the case. What you get is a high probability that the hypothesis you have formulated under the conditions and assumptions that you have made is likely or not.

As for the original question I have no idea what it is like to "Feel like a woman". I feel like me. I KNOW that I am a transwoman but there is no way for me to describe what that feels like as an identity in the same way that there is no way Reine or Sandra or any of the other GG's to describe what it feels like to be them. You are who you are and you feel how you feel.

[Becky Blue]

The reality is you can find lots of science supporting lots of different opinions on how our brains are wired, M v F brains, why some people feel they are born in the wrong body etc etc. Right now the reality is we don't know, we have scientific opinion not scientific fact. One day soon i am sure more will be learned and perhaps consensus will be reached.

[EffyJaspers]

I don't particularly think I would say, "I feel like a woman". If another guy said it I would deal with the situation from the situation's perspective.

The TV show Shameless brought up for a few episodes (i stopped on that last episode for now) that a girl named Mandy has a half-sister. Ends up that half-sister has a girl penis. Ends up that half-sister's drug-addicted mom hated men and thus told that boy he was a girl with a dick. --> I can't wait to see what happens next to this side character, but overall it deals with the point that this boy knows how it feels to be a girl (woman) because that is how he was brought up. He will not ever experience a woman's period or child birth, but I would never reject it if he told me he knows how it feels to be a girl (so not a woman yet). I'd be inspired if he told me he knows how to be self sufficient because of his mom wasn't always there.

Considering my sister's lives so far as I see them there usually isn't much difference between them and mine so if you say you feel like a woman I Believe it's all from your perspective and I accept that/don't care/congratulate you.

I am growing my hair out, so one of the things I naturally do is brush these bangs [that are too short to do much with] aside repeatably. I recognize this act from female friends and all the movies and shows where a woman always brushes her hair aside. That's prolly my conscious "I feel like a woman" (I then try to play it off in my mind as fact that anyone with long hair may deal with but I matter-of-factly attribute as a thing women do). ---- At this rate I could say have bra [and bra strap] lines and panty lines is also a IFLAW moment... I love them. Need to come out to family [and friends eventually] someday...

[Bonnie Chan]

You can actually intentionally forget something. Which means, that whatever way that memory was stored, can be partially or completely destroyed, just by thinking in a certain way (whether it's done consciously or subconsciously).

This sounds interesting. Could you elaborate more how one can intentionally forget something? I always thought the more you want to forget something the more you remember it. I thought you can forget something when you just don't care about it and never have a situation to think of it then it eventually goes away.


I don't particularly think I would say, "I feel like a woman". If another guy said it I would deal with the situation from the situation's perspective.
I think this is pretty much the attitude we should stick to. It rather depends on the situation and surrounding context. If one says "I feel like a woman", then it's not clear what that means and you really have to ask the speaker to explain more. The sentence is just too short to actually mean anything specific.

- Bonnie

[ReineD]

And I suggest you start with this, perhaps? :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences


Laura, I'll take the time to read the wiki article to see if what they say fundamentally differs with Lisa Eliot and get back to you. You might want to read it in detail too, and also watch the video fully, so we can make comparisons.

I finally got to it. I didn’t have to read very far.

Second paragraph:
"Experts note that neural sexual dimorphisms in humans exist only as averages, with overlapping variabilities; that it is unknown to what extent each is influenced by genetics or environment, even in adulthood; and that it is impossible to identify whether a given human brain is from an XX or an XY solely by examination of its anatomy."

Translation: The variables do overlap (men and women do share the same traits), they don’t know if traits are influenced by genetics or environment (although the current consensus is about 50/50 nature/nurture, but it is not gendered … individuals of both sexes experience similar variations in traits), and it is impossible to tell if a brain is from XX or XY chromosomes just by examining it.

So the wiki article agrees with Dr. Lisa Eliot and I will repeat: In her lecture, she did not say male and female brains were identical. There are some physiological differences, but the differences are slight, which does result in overlaps of personality traits and abilities among both sexes.