Don't want to be a man anymore, do you ?

[Teresa]

This question finally came up after my wife had to visit the doctor about an ear problem. She has been using drops to clear the problem up, I mentioned men usually have more problems because of the hair that grows around the ears. She went on to ask if I liked hair , I answered hair in the ears is ugly ! She then persisted that I don't really like hair anywhere, I finally admitted I didn't as she knows I shave all over now anyway. I'm not sure if her final remark was a statement or a question when she said you don't really like being a man anymore, do you !/?

I so much wanted to go further with this conversation but I knew she was looking to stir the situation up so I replied no, not really and left it at that.

I know it was a situation missed but there are right times and wrong times and getting into a heated discussion doesn't solve anything, I've been there and experienced it too many times. They have to happen when you hope progress is going to be made not to step backwards .

The good point to come out of this is she is thinking about it and truthfully knows the answer, she has to come to terms with it in her own way .

[karla2016]

...in the same subject of conversation my GF has asked me several times if I'm gay. She did it last night...again. Then my answer is a straight NOT. "Technically to be gay, one has to have sex with another man, because I haven't(yet) I'm not gay. However I might be lesbian so you are"...then she said:"Good night...KARLA!"

[Krisi]

I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

True, there are a few males whose desire to be female is so strong that they are willing to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

[Pat]

Then my answer is a straight NOT. "Technically to be gay, one has to have sex with another man, because I haven't(yet) I'm not gay.
So by reflection, that would mean that straight people aren't straight until they've had sex with someone? I don't think your reasoning is sound. There are plenty of gay kids who know they are gay and have not yet had sex.


However I might be lesbian so you are"...
It's very difficult to express how inappropriate/offensive it is for crossdressing men to claim they are lesbian. You are not.

[Tracii G]

If I were 20 again I would do it in a heartbeat Krisi but at 64 I know its not going to happen.
It drives me crazy sometimes that I am not in the right body but it is what it is.

Right on Jennie

[Krisi]

Yes, but did you feel this way at age 20? I did not and I enjoyed being male at that age. At age 20 I had no thoughts of becoming a woman or even wanting to be one. It wasn't really possible back in those days.

Back in those days, women were truly "second class citizens". They did what their husbands told them to do, birth control was unreliable and difficult and job opportunities were limited. Career opportunity were very very few.

[Megan G]

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

Seriously Krisi? Do you just reply without putting any thought into it? Your past does not disappear, your employment and educational history does not suddenly vanish when you transition... what was once there, will always be there.... I'm not going to get into the logistics of it all but try thinking about it a little....

[jennigrace]

I have no desire to be a woman. I just love the look and feel of the feminine clothes and make up. I especially love the feel of panties after shaving and using a depilatory.

[Christina D]

Are there times I wish I had more pronounced feminine features? Absolutely! As much as I love being Christina every once and a while (I fully dress maybe 3 times a week for about 5 hours at a time), I can't imagine not being able to go back.

That being said, I definitely don't mind being a man (by which I mean I have zero body dysphoria), but I'm not necessarily enthralled with or proud of being a man either. Like wearing mens clothes in general, I often feel like my male body and self are purely functional; it doesn't really matter to me one way or another. Still, being a woman full time, even if that just meant dressing and presenting, sounds like too much.

I'm really not sure why I'm satisfied with the mediocrity of being male 4+ days out of the week. The fear of dressing more being too much of a good thing perhaps? The fear of chasing or acting upon what really makes me happy in favor of what's easier for others to accept?

[docrobbysherry]

No. But, I'd like to fly like a bird and not age or die, also.

At least I'm able to look like a female on occasion. Better than nothing.:)

[DIANEF]

As a a lifelong crossdresser there have been times when I thought I might want more than just putting on the clothes and make-up, but that big word is 'might' If I truly wanted to transition it would have happened a long time ago. I could and have spent extended periods in female mode and really didn't want it to end, but there are a few things I like about being a male so transitioning is not for me. But, the desire can occur in later life and if that is what someone thinks they need for their own happiness and well being who are we to criticize.

[immindy]

Wow , discussing body hair has really opened up some issues here. We all dress for different reasons. For myself , yes If i knew what I knew now I would have transitioned at age 20 or younger but I went to counseling as a child and became convinced it was not right for me to want to be a woman. Fast forward to today and I have now lived most of my life as a man so completely telling the world to only think of me as a woman now would be very hard . I realize some need to do this no matter what the consequences . I have been able , after counseling and such , to come to a happy compromise . My body is becoming more like the woman that I am ( do to hormones ) but I often still present as a male when I need to . Will I fully transition with surgery or what not ? I may as circumstances change .

Back to talking about hair and the male body . I love not having male body hair ! My beard growth has even slowed down. But one should not go on hormones just to get rid of body hair , of course :)

[Rachael Leigh]

Wow what a question, well I know it has crossed my mind many times and while I sometimes wish I had been born a girl
it just wasn't meant to be, I've found a way to express myself as a women by dressing and doing my best to blend into society. I too hate body hair it's part of who I am does it mean I'm a women no I just don't like it and it's easier to express
my fem side with no hair. I do consider myself trans but not one who will ever fully go one way with it. It took years to get
to this point and accept it and understand it

[Dana44]

that was a carazy question. However, In a few minutes I am going for my laser appointment for my ears. Yep I do not like hair on my ears.

[Fiona123]

As I am typing this I am sitting alone (at last) in a quiet house wearing a dress hose bra etc. I'm loving it. Do I want to be a man? I think not.

[kymmieLorain]

I got asked the same question after watching the Law & Order. SVU about the transgender daughter. I mentioned that I can accept that situation. And believe in the choice. The S/O asked if I would like to be a woman. I did tell her NO. actually at times I wish I was. However as tracii said. at 20 possibly at 52 its not in the cards.

Kymmie

[Michelle (Oz)]

Body and facial hair are a battle for any CDer. Waving a magic wand to rid hair would make transformation so much easier and effective.

My response to wanting to be full time is 'no' while ever my wife is alive and I don't want to contemplate life without her. That aside, being male is such an easy state for me.

[Becky Blue]

At times no, at times perhaps at times yes....
Krisi size and shape have absolutely nothing to do with a persons feelings about their gender whether you are 5'6" and 120lbs or 6'4" and 250lbs is totally irrelevant... people don't transition because they are able to look more realistic. Being large does not mean you have any less right to feel female.

[Billy]

I accept the body hair and being male. This acceptance probably affords me the ability to throw on some women's clothing and be out the door in a couple of minutes and be able to pack a pair of shoes, tshirt, and jeans with me to change into if the need arose.

[Helen_Highwater]

I'm not sure if her final remark was a statement or a question when she said you don't really like being a man anymore, do you !/?

I so much wanted to go further with this conversation but I knew she was looking to stir the situation up so I replied no, not really and left it at that.


You need to be careful and separate the desire to be accepted fully by your SO and the desire to be fully femme 24/7 and by that I mean transitioned. I can understand the need to have the absolute freedom to dress as and when you want, no reservations, full on, out there with the muggles and not having to worry about the social consequences. This is different to being fully transitioned, HRT, SRS, the whole nine yards. That would be a whole new paradyne. We sometimes wish for things that turn out to be more than we wanted or bargained for. The pink fog isn't solely confined to shopping.

[Teresa]

I should add that also part of her comments were also aimed at the length of my nails !

I'm not sure if it was accidental or intentional but she didn't comment about me wanting to be female or a woman, she was making more of some the feminising details. I know i have said on more than one occasion that I'm no longer interested in what the male side of my life entails.

Krisi,
I won't be as blunt as Meghan but why don't you just accept we 're on different roads heading in alternative directions. My wife would have made those comments no matter what my physical size and shape was, I do count myself lucky that I don't have to worry about that aspect being only 5' 7" and weighing 147 lbs.

Transition is not a fantasy, Tracii is partly right that age is stacking up against me but talking to a TS at my social group proves that point wrong when some of them at her gender clinic are in their eighties .

As for changing from BOB to Suzie , that's not a problem either as my female name is derived from male one, I have lived with this feeling since I was eight years old but I was partly born as Teresa, she has always been part of my life.

[sometimes_miss]

What is, and what should be. Oh, how we wonder about that. Wanting something to happen, and actually having it happen, are two entirely different things. In our daydreams, we think of ideal situations and conditions, and everything always works out wonderfully. But when we come out of that dream, we face reality, and know that what we wished for is actually impossible. As a kid, I dreamed of growing up to become a beautiful woman. As I got older, occasionally I would wonder if maybe it could really happen, and when I first read all about Tula, the beautiful TS model/actress, the desires once again came to the forefront of my daydreams. But always the real world would pull me back. I know I can never be the woman that I dreamed of being; I'm not a female, not built anything like a beautiful female, and I don't think like a female. So trying to become something that I'm not, would be pointless. It doesn't stop the desires from occurring; I understand why I feel the way I do. It's not based on reality. I'm OK with living my life as a guy. It's what I am.

[lingerieLiz]

We all should accept other's opinions. I started at 5 CDing. I didn't know about sex but enjoyed wearing and acting as a girl in my sister's dresses. As I grew older I was confused as to who I was and what was my future. Since my sisters were destined to be housewives I assumed I would also be one. In my preteens I liked girls and have always been attracted sexually to them. But, living and doing things has always been toward fem things.

[emma30]

Krisi your reply is spot on ! Well said x

[Maria Blackwood]

Yes, it's a pure fantasy to many of us to really have our gender changed. I'm *quite* acutely aware of that. I've stated elsewhere I consider all current medical tech on that front to be not even close to what I need. Although reports of head transplant studies perked up my ears recently. :D CD is my release valve. It took me a while to realize it.

As for how things were "back in the day", my mother became an electro-mechanical engineer at Bell Labs in the early 1960s. She worked on the Apollo program at TRW, and moved into classified work she could never tell me about during the 1970s until she retired in the late 90s. Things she helped design are still out there in geostationary orbit.

And by all the gods ever invented by humanity, I hate my body hair. I check for new methods of permanent removal regularly.

[Connie D50]

If I were 20 again I would do it in a heartbeat Krisi but at 64 I know its not going to happen.
It drives me crazy sometimes that I am not in the right body but it is what it is.

Tracii I agree with you at 61 I'll have to just continue to love dressing up as I have done sense age 8.

Yes, but did you feel this way at age 20?
Krisi it would be very interesting if I could be 20 in 2016 what I would do? so many factors back in 1975 could have coursed me to take the path that I took. I don't know about anyone else but I felt I was the only one in the world that felt this way.

Happy as part time Connie in 2016

[mona lisa]

Most of the time I do not mind it.

[CarlaWestin]

With all due respect to those of us that want to become female, I personally have no problem being male. I do like the feel and aura of things considered feminine. Clean shaven completely below the eyes, toenails always fabulously red, panties only for underwear, etc... But, I celebrate being male. Wife says I'm definitely an alpha male because of my focus, ability to solve problems and take charge attitude. And then there's that whole wonderful experience of being a girl for a while.

If there were an irreversible process that would actually 100% transform you to a complete biological and cerebral female would you do it? Maybe you would and that's wonderful!
Me? No way!

[Sara Jessica]

It seems many of the responses are just circling the drain without getting to the heart of the matter, communication.

Yes Teresa, it was a missed opportunity but I'm not sure that I blame you for not going there. How can you have a heartfelt conversation with your wife about how you really feel and your future intentions when you don't even know these answers yourself? Sure, you may feel as if you no longer want to be a man, that you desire transition to female. But really, are you taking that path? If the answer is yes, then it seems that opening the floodgates of communication is the most merciful thing you can do for your wife.

Assuming you do not yet know your true path, put yourself in her shoes (oops, bad pun). She is not one of us and as such has limited knowledge of this thing of ours compared with what you know and feel in your heart. Assuming her intention of marrying a man was to be with a soulmate with whom she could build a life, raise a family and grow old with, this is in significant danger of imploding on her (or at least from her point of view). Imagine how crappy that feels, to wonder every day if this is the day her husband announces to the world an intention to transition.

There is no easy answer or solution. What I can share is that I have been there/done that in terms of putting my wife in that crappy place where she had to wonder daily if I would take the transition path. I emerged from that wilderness on a path less taken.

[Krisi]

Krisi your reply is spot on ! Well said x

Thank you.

[daphne_L]

What is, and what should be. Oh, how we wonder about that. Wanting something to happen, and actually having it happen, are two entirely different things. In our daydreams, we think of ideal situations and conditions, and everything always works out wonderfully. But when we come out of that dream, we face reality, and know that what we wished for is actually impossible. As a kid, I dreamed of growing up to become a beautiful woman. As I got older, occasionally I would wonder if maybe it could really happen, and when I first read all about Tula, the beautiful TS model/actress, the desires once again came to the forefront of my daydreams. But always the real world would pull me back. I know I can never be the woman that I dreamed of being; I'm not a female, not built anything like a beautiful female, and I don't think like a female. So trying to become something that I'm not, would be pointless. It doesn't stop the desires from occurring; I understand why I feel the way I do. It's not based on reality. I'm OK with living my life as a guy. It's what I am.

This sounds almost exactly like where I am at, Clearly stated. Though sometimes I'm not as OK with it as I would like to be.

- - - Updated - - -



And by all the gods ever invented by humanity, I hate my body hair. I check for new methods of permanent removal regularly.

Amen!! And facial hair is just as bad!

[Acastina]

I don't think I ever really "wanted to be a man". The term as applied to me always makes me cringe a little. I knew I was different from a very early age, and the intensity and prominence of it has never really even gone back-burner, but rather has ebbed and surged over time. It's as strong now as ever, which I presume is a consciousness of nearing the end of life having the effect of throwing more fuel on the fire. But throw in more than six decades of involuntary male socialization and it gets complicated. I did live a full-time experiment for nearly eight years in the 1980s, and I'm not at all sure I made the right decision to reverse it.

I am blessed to be married for 13 years now to a woman who met my feminine persona first and fell in love with her (knowing I was male) before she got the boy as a sort of bonus. As our relationship has evolved, our sexuality has changed pretty dramatically (for emotional rather than physical reasons), and, when (for instance) a lonely woman friend of ours (about 50 and an author) talks and writes about sex being the focal point of a lasting relationship, my wife responds that compatibility in everyday life and affectionate companionship are the real long-distance runners.

My largest question mark would be our two grandchildren (by her son), who live 200 miles away and whom we see three or four times per year. Never having had children of my own (an act of conscious restraint) I actually kind of enjoy the role of Grandpa, but the eight-year-old boy did ask me a few years ago if I was "a boy". He had started to notice secondary sex characteristics, saw no hair on my legs or face but plenty on my head, and asked an honest question. Of course I said yes.

But "man"? Depends on what "man" means. Male, XY, good with tools, yes, but not a lot of the things that word connotes.

So I don't have the issue of how far to take an opening to a deeper conversation, and I can't offer counsel there. If my wife were to pose that question, I suppose my reply would be something like "What was your first clue?" and we'd laugh. It's who and what I am, and she knows it and loves it. If I feel compelled to express it a bit more publicly (as I do these days), she trusts that I'm a master of discretion and subtlety with decades of presentation experience and a nice wardrobe. So on I go with earrings and light makeup and androgynous clothing and...

I'm lucky.

[Ally 2112]

I have had this conversation many times with myself .In the end i will stay a man dress as a women which i seem to enjoy the most .Also do not like a hairy body i shave most of mine except my hair which is very long so thankful !

[Karen RHT]

I'm not the text book definition of an alpha male, but I am a man in the true sense of the word. Have always been a man, will remain a man, and am absolutely fine with that.

Now...ask me to present myself as a woman and watch me smile. :)


Karen

[Georgette_USA]

Krisi and others on, "if I knew back then" or "my size is a limiter" or "whatever one finds as a reason (excuse)", for not doing now. Yes not all do need to transition, but is that really living.

I know some that decided late in life, 50-70s, that they could not continue living the lie. Not all even do the full transition, HRT FFS SRS, anymore. They tried to live as a man, but nothing would stop it.

I don't know what year Krisi was age 20. When I was age 24/25 in 1975, I found others and read anything I could find on the TS subject. I don't know any TS that would not have loved to have done it earlier.

And yes ones previous life can be a challenge to explain, we learn to do it. Some are proud to declare their previous life. Talked with Kristin Beck recently, ex Navy seal and ran for congress in my district. She is proud of her past but she knew her way forward was different.

[MissVirginia-Mae]

I know I dont want to be a man anymore and that is why I am transitioning but I realize most people cant change that easily....

[Zooey]

I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

For men, yes, absolutely. The vast majority of the people in this forum are men, so on that point we agree.


While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

This is a pretty complete summary of all the made up BS excuses that men here use to explain why they would totally transition, but won't because they're "too responsible", "have their priorities straight", or some other such nonsense. The reason you don't transition is because the vast majority of you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, and you don't need to. Pure and simple.

The parts about losing your past and your work history simply aren't true, unless an individual decides they want them to be. Most don't.


And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

This is just plain offensive, and wholly unnecessary. I know a number of tall women who are gorgeous - both cis and trans - and you'd be amazed at what losing a tremendous amount of muscle mass on HRT can do. Stop projecting your fears and prejudices onto others.


True, there are a few males whose [-]desire[/-] actual need to be female is so strong that they [-]are willing[/-] have no choice but to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

Fixed it for you. I'm sick and tired of the narrative here, both explicitly stated and implied, that transsexual women want to be women so badly that we "went all the way". Transsexual women were always who and what we are; we are medically and legally aligning our exteriors with our interiors. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Angie G]

If I didn't have an awesome wife and kids with kid I'd love not being a man anymore.:hugs:
Angie

[Sara Jessica]

This is a pretty complete summary of all the made up BS excuses that men here use to explain why they would totally transition, but won't because they're "too responsible", "have their priorities straight", or some other such nonsense. The reason you don't transition is because the vast majority of you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, and you don't need to. Pure and simple.

Serious offense taken on this one. I didn't realize that the litmus test of being transsexual was to go all the way.


Fixed it for you. I'm sick and tired of the narrative here, both explicitly stated and implied, that transsexual women want to be women so badly that we "went all the way". Transsexual women were always who and what we are; we are medically and legally aligning our exteriors with our interiors. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am what I have always been and have chosen not to medically and legally align my exterior with my interior.

So what is it that makes one a true transsexual? The act of transition or simply being (provided there is absolute honesty with one's own narrative, something which can never be proven or disproven)?

[docrobbysherry]

For men, yes, absolutely. The vast majority of the people in this forum are men, so on that point we agree.
This is a pretty complete summary of all the made up BS excuses that men here use to explain why they would totally transition, but won't because they're "too responsible", "have their priorities straight", or some other such nonsense. The reason you don't transition is because the vast majority of you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, and you don't need to. Pure and simple.
--------------------------------------
Zooey? I hope u didn't post this just for MY benefit? Because I had always assumed I was the only one here playing make believe!
But, if u did?:love:

[Zooey]

So what is it that makes one a true transsexual? The act of transition or simply being (provided there is absolute honesty with one's own narrative, something which can never be proven or disproven)?

I'm not going to go down an endless rabbit hole with you on this one. I will simply say that, regardless of what you may in fact be, if you are capable of making the choice that you've made then you are (at least in some ways) somewhat fundamentally different from most of us who do transition.

[Joni Beauman]

I remember fantasizing about the magic wand long before I knew transitioning was an actual medical possibility. Still, there is wood to be chopped. Easier so far to go back and forth. Joni

[Teresa]

Zooey,
I'm sick of being told it's BS to want to retain a lifetime, something we have shed blood sweat and tears to build up, you have your opinion , but not what some of us have to consider when we may walk away from it all. It's a very inflexible attitude and at times insulting to me and my family, and I'm sure to many other members here.

We have been here before so I'm not going to get into a heated debate about it, life is about compromise you just don't want to see it for many of us.

[jentay1367]

So much fun to read the responses here that regard this as a choice. Trust me, this is not a choice. If you see it as a choice and make the "choice" to transition, you will quickly find yourself in a horrible mess. This has nothing to do with"choosing". This is who you are and who you've always been. What a true TS woman is actually doing is aligning her body to her mind so she can live her life without constantly being misgendered. Here's a quick reality check. No TS woman ponders if she wants to be a man anymore. She never was. If you're considering this quandary, you can relax, you aren't TS.

[Zooey]

I'm sick of being told it's BS to want to retain a lifetime, something we have shed blood sweat and tears to build up, you have your opinion , but not what some of us have to consider when we may walk away from it all. It's a very inflexible attitude and at times insulting to me and my family, and I'm sure to many other members here.

You can retain a lifetime. I have retained a lifetime of accomplishment and memories, and while I lost my partner, I gained them back as a real friend.

Loss is a part of any life actually lived. You do not necessarily have to walk away from anything or anybody. Other people may decide to walk away from you, but that's the price of living honestly. It's not exclusive to transition.

[Suzanne F]

Ok I couldn't resist since Krisi had to say "Suzie." probably has a family and a job. That drives me crazy. No problem if you say I am a cross dresser and I don't want to transition. I understand. But please know that the women here who transition all have families and careers that they care about. I am a real "Suzie" that kept her family in tact and risked my career to be me. It wasn't that I just went further than others. I was driven like nothing you have ever felt. I am glad for all those that aren't haunted but at least acknowledge that those who transition have all the things to lose that you do!

[Krisi]

Seriously Krisi? Do you just reply without putting any thought into it? Your past does not disappear, your employment and educational history does not suddenly vanish when you transition... what was once there, will always be there.... I'm not going to get into the logistics of it all but try thinking about it a little....

Megan, I do put thought into my replies, all of them. I don't understand what makes you think otherwise.

This actually came up on this forum a few years ago. Someone wanted to publish a book and because she had gotten a doctor's degree, she wanted to claim "Dr. Suzie Smith" (whatever her name was) as the author. The problem was, she went to school and got her degree as "Bob Smith". Suzie Smith never went to that school and never got a doctorate.

"Suzie" Smith was never born, never went to school and never had a job until she became "Suzie". Suzie has no family photos, school photos, etc. Suzie knows her past but nobody else does.

BTW: "Suzie" was just the first female name that came to mind. Nothing personal. And none of this is meant to insult transsexuals, even Megan or Zooey. It's just the cold, hard facts.

[Megan G]

It's really not rocket science Krisi... like everyone that transitions I have changed my name on my high school, and college degrees.. I also have letters of reference from old employers that "he" worked at that now know me as Megan. I did not go back my full work history, just the relevant stuff...

Your history is your history and will always be there unless you are purposely trying to hide it, and trust me as someone that hires many people per year and conducts many background checks it's easy to dig up everyone's history...

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Teresa:hugs:, I enjoy being a part time lady, I have the best of both worlds...:daydreaming:...

[Beverley Sims]

Teresa,
I agree don't push it at any time, it usually sorts itself eventually.
I have some interesting exchanges with my wife but I rarely take the bait.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
I did say "might " in that sentence but if we had separated we agreed I would move away to give me a chance of a new life, it was the only way we could see it working. She wasn't going to cut me off niether were the children, but that was the plan before the event and not after.

As for the honesty issue , we had another talk and again I tried to be open and honest but she just draws the line . It is a part of me that she doesn't want to know about.
As I've said before I have to work round her , if she knew about the forum, the number of people I've come out to and my pictures that so many have seen, I'm sure it would be all over anyway. She possibly doesn't want to go down that road and can live with what she does and doesn't know.

[Julia Welch]

I've never wanted to not be a man, I really do enjoy it .... I just love feminine clothing, whether it's on me or some pretty thing I encounter ...

[Zooey]

As for the honesty issue , we had another talk and again I tried to be open and honest but she just draws the line . It is a part of me that she doesn't want to know about.
As I've said before I have to work round her , if she knew about the forum, the number of people I've come out to and my pictures that so many have seen, I'm sure it would be all over anyway. She possibly doesn't want to go down that road and can live with what she does and doesn't know.

Teresa, I think you missed my point. Assuming you are being truthful with yourself about what you think you are, you are not living honestly right now. You are hiding. You are tip-toeing around. You living honestly is not contingent on your wife's approval. It's contingent only on whether or not you live a life of hiding or an honest one. Yes, your wife may leave you, and that is HER choice. It has nothing to do with whether you're living honestly or not.

Pretty much every single transitioned woman here has had no choice but to put their relationships and career on the line in order to escape the lies and live an honest, real life. If you're able to choose not to (and to all people here that say the same thing), then again I would suggest that it's worth considering what that rather fundamental difference may actually mean in terms of what you really are and aren't.

[Suzanne F]

Teresa
Please listen to us. We are not criticizing you for not transitioning. We are trying to show you that we had all the things you have that were obstacles to being truthful about who we are. In my case it was the exact situation. I have a wife and children and a successful career. Finally I had no choice but to risk those things once I allowed any honest self appraisal of my gender. If you can decide that those things mean more than being you then you are probably not a woman and are making a good decision, if you are torn in to pieces all of the time the day will come when you have no choice but to walk out the door as the woman you are. It doesn't offend us that you don't transition. It offends us that you think we chose to give all those things up that you fear losing. We love our families and careers just as much.
Suzanne

[Teresa]

Suzanne,
Thanks for your honest reply, my honest answer is I am torn between doing the right thing. There have always been good days and bad but after so many years I just accept it as life. You may or may not have read my thread in TS section explaining how it started for me, the feeling that just doesn't go away.

At the moment I'm working on it outside of the forum, some aspects of it aren't accepted on the forum but my gut feeling is I'm heading in the right direction . There are two sides to the forum one is very supportive and the other is down to jumping on the same bandwagon and decrying a member for exploring other avenues.

Zooey,
On this occasion I get your point and agree with it, yes I admit it is partly denial. When a TSs member from my social group suggested I should go for a gender assessment, it felt like we were talking about another person, until I can come to terms with that I will continue to fight the honesty issue. I keep telling myself what I have now is as good as it gets, it maybe true, I certainly think that applies to my wife now.

[Abbey11]

Hi Teresa, I have nothing to offer regarding what is the right decision for you, I wish you every success with where your journey leads and future happiness xx

[Krisi]

.................. Fixed it for you. I'm sick and tired of the narrative here, both explicitly stated and implied, that transsexual women want to be women so badly that we "went all the way". Transsexual women were always who and what we are; we are medically and legally aligning our exteriors with our interiors. Nothing more, nothing less.

You did not "fix it for me", you are just arguing with me. Your opinion is no more valid than mine and you are not changing my mind or anyone else's.

I am a crossdresser and my opinions are those of a crossdresser. Don't like it, there's an option in the control panel to ignore certain posters. I suggest you use it.

[Paula DAngelo]

You did not "fix it for me", you are just arguing with me. Your opinion is no more valid than mine and you are not changing my mind or anyone else's.

I am a crossdresser and my opinions are those of a crossdresser.


I agree, you are giving your opinion, the opinion of a crossdresser on how a transsexual woman feels. Zooey on the other hand is not giving an opinion, she is stating what she, as a transsexual woman and many others of us actually feel. Are you entitled to your opinion and is she entitled to argue about what is as opposed to what someone thinks? Yes to both of these, however people need to remember there can be a big difference between one's opinion and what actually is.

[mona lisa]

I've never wanted to not be a man, I really do enjoy it .... I just love feminine clothing, whether it's on me or some pretty thing I encounter ...

I agree with you Julia...most of the time.

[Exris]

Teresa and I had a brief exchange via PM.

Im in her corner on this one.

@Zooey. Alot of the things you say are well thought out and true. Correct even. But we people are not all the same. I could live with my former employers having a good laugh as the "formally known as..." reference. I wont see them again most likely anyway (tho I do work in a highly specialized role... not many of us). My daughter wouldnt reject me - tho it would take a while for her to come to terms with it. Even my ex-wife would accept it when arranging parental visits. So no problem then?

My birth family would categorize me as "**** it he's a gay". They are assholes mostly. Bigoted opinionated idiots. Unwilling to learn. And very prejudiced. There is no question I would be totally cut out. It's also very likely my cretin of a brother would arrive on my doorstep one day with knifes and a baseball bat.

What am I supposed to do? File a complaint? Im as close to A-Sexual as anyone Iv ever met already... not completely devoid... but frequent periods of inactivity lasting many years are a cycle. Id still be cast out as a fag. The term is meant to be abusive. I use it because I would be abused and shattered.

So if Im not that interested in sex... why even bother? Because I think about it almost all day long in idle moments. Even in busy moments. In the bath. At work. Sleeping. Even sitting down to pee. It would be right.

But I cant deal with all that XXX from the family from hell. It's too much. I cant face it. Iv grown used to being unhappy now and dressing does make it better somewhat. Now that it's officially 2017 I made the choice last year. I have a booked accompanied appointment. My very first one. I can deal with being called a weekend girl. I can deal with my fears being dismissed or my outlook marginalized.

But this thread is about Teresa and her choices. Only she can make a decision that is final and potentially family breaking. If it takes her a week or 10 years, no matter. It's her choice to make.

[Zooey]

Really? You seem to be thinking that what I'm saying has anything to do with whether or not it would be hard for you (or Teresa).

It doesn't. At all. I KNOW it's hard.

It's not about hard or not. It's about living honestly or not. It's about necessary or not. If it was necessary for you, you'd be going through it, despite how hard it is, just like the rest of the transitioned women here.

[Jenniferathome]

...you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, ....

Really? "Dress up" as in what a little girl does when she puts on a princess or mermaid costume? I don't play "dress up."

You are either completely obtuse or you choose to find the most offensive way to make your point. I am a man who is a cross dresser but "dress up" demeans virtually all cross dressers as if we are some joke. I am no less valid, no more of a joke, than you.

Here's someone playing "dress-up": http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?217197-Surprise-dress-and-fun-with-faces!&highlight=

[Stephanie47]

Teresa, as the expression goes "You've come a long way, baby!" I really hope you have been keeping a record of your posts over the three years you've been on this forum. Your life really has the makings of a decent serial soap opera. I mean that in a good way. There are some fine British/English on going serial programs on our public broadcasting stations. You've given the readers a really in-depth look at the turmoil of a male trying to decide what he really is, and, how that impacts on those around him.

Frankly, I am really happy for your increasing ability to recognize who you really are, and, the manner in which you express yourself. On the downside, it does upset me somewhat that your wife's life is increasingly being unfulfilled when it comes to the attention or lack thereof that a woman needs. I don't know the outcome for you and your wife, but, that's the draw for a serial soap opera.

This conversation you've started seems to have become somewhat contentious.

- - - Updated - - -


Really? "Dress up" as in what a little girl does when she puts on a princess or mermaid costume? I don't play "dress up."

[/url]

I guess I missed Zooey's comment back in post #37. I do agree with Jennifer's retort. I readily admit I really do not feel the angst any transwoman or transman experiences. I had gone off to another tab while I was formulating my post at #63 to look at the exceptional high rate of attempted or contemplated suicides among the transgender community. That really tells me there is real turmoil in that group. I'm sure it is a combination of "being in the wrong body" and a lack of acceptance or perceived acceptance by society. I also looked up the actual suicide rate and the causes for combat veterans. Not the "self reported" attempted or contemplated rates. When you're dead there is no self reporting. Is there? Anyway you slice it there is some turmoil happening in the brain. There is conflict that needs to be resolved.

Am I a cisgender man who plays dress up? If I were to look like that dad in a commercial who comes to his daughter's tea party dressed as a very hairy fairy, that would be an attempt at playing dress up. Just read the postings on threads on this forum. The men here are racking their brains silly trying to figure out why he, and, I am using the proper pronoun, why is he risking all that is holy in his life by wearing a bra, hosiery, makeup, etc? Why is he willing to not observe the conformity demanded of society? Violating all the basic norms? There is more here than playing dress up.

I don't know the answer to why I like on occasion to wear women's clothing. As I have stated on occasion a female counselor I see for combat related PTSD (yes, killing people, not killing people, having people trying to kill me, and seeing and participating in the mayhem of warfare) sugests (her opinion) that each person has some degree of DNA of the opposite sex in the genes. It influences who they are. I suppose and it must be more than conjecture that the "pull" is greater for some than others.

Frankly, my life would have been a lot less stressful if I did not wear women's clothing on occasion. I am not a cisgender man playing "dress up." Maybe somebody can enlighten me as to what I am. I know who I am.

PS: It happened again. Try to post two separate comments and they always seem to run together. Ugh!

[Sara Jessica]

I'm not going to go down an endless rabbit hole with you on this one. I will simply say that, regardless of what you may in fact be, if you are capable of making the choice that you've made then you are (at least in some ways) somewhat fundamentally different from most of us who do transition.

But you just did.

Thing is, assuming honesty with one's own narrative (and that goes both ways, gosh knows I've met a transitioned woman or two who had no business going down that path), we are fundamentally the same. It is really quite simple. There is no litmus test to demonstrate that one is a transsexual which includes transition. Nor is there any badge of honor that comes with hitting rock bottom which seems to be pervasive a vocal contingent of the the online community as a rallying cry. I get it. Transition is hard. It is something to be proud of I'm sure.

Teresa may be a lifelong TS who is just awakening. If this is in fact the case, her coronation doesn't come with the bells & whistles of an inevitable transition. That does not a TS make. Instead, transition creates the outer facade of a woman which aligns with what is in her heart & soul. Said woman was already transsexual.

That said, the repugnant statement...


This is a pretty complete summary of all the made up BS excuses that men here use to explain why they would totally transition, but won't because they're "too responsible", "have their priorities straight", or some other such nonsense.

...is absolutely dismissive of what is likely to be an extraordinary number of human beings who somehow have it in them NOT to go down the transition path. My rock bottom is different from everyone else's, as are my coping mechanisms. You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different. Although this part of the rabbit hole leads nowhere, what I can say is that your dismissive attitude is no different than that of a huge swath of people in this world who utterly dismiss your experience.

You may not realize it but you have an ally in me and others like me. We have not taken your path. Someday some of us might. Others will go to our graves not having lived an honest life in your words. Personally, I'll take my chances with that because there are other truths in my life which are worth living for in the status quo. When all is said and done, I will be an advocate for any of us who is struggling with a potential nuclear solution when it comes to family and/or career in saying that there is another path, one less taken. As Teresa comes to whatever conclusion she may, I will respect her decision one way or the other.

[Krisi]

......... Zooey on the other hand is not giving an opinion, she is stating what she, as a transsexual woman and many others of us actually feel. ................

It is still her opinion and only an opinion. Nothing more. Zooey seems to have an axe to grind.

[Teresa]

Stephanie,
I've just re-read your #63 reply.
Sometimes I know I say too much, at the same time members here are struggling far more and seeing another member talking it through may encourage them to open up to lighten their load.
The situation with my wife is important to me, if I was a totally selfish person , I would have walked out to do as I choose and leave her with the consequences, she admits she hurts me , what else can she do when she knows she can't accept it, she has to lash out sometimes. Obviously it would be easier for me if she would allow me to tell her all the facts of my CDing, how it started and what I live with constantly . She married a man and that's what she expects, so she's gone as far as she can in her comfort zone .

I didn't expect it to turn contentious, I don't mind that as long as it doesn't become abusive and personal , some of the views are subjects for new threads perhaps the members concerned would like to create them to air their own views.

Sara J,
This last year since being out in public more has changed my CDing outlook, I know it's not pink fog, I'm working on it outside the forum because there are contentious issues which I'm dealing with before I reveal more details on the forum.

[Sara Jessica]

No one should even intend for these conversations to be contentious. It's just that there are not merely two ways to define your situation...find your transition path and you are a woman versus you are a man, "just a CD'er" who likes to play dress up. There is plenty of gray area in our world to go around for everyone.


The situation with my wife is important to me, if I was a totally selfish person , I would have walked out to do as I choose and leave her with the consequences...

Be careful here Teresa. I know you don't want to imply that the opposite is true. There are those who may have felt they had no choice but to do this very thing and you don't want to characterize their action as being selfish.

[phili]

As a former ag research scientist I became aware that it is basically impossible to narrow down any biological reality far enough to be certain about any aspect of it!

We normally avoid being contentious on the forum for simple courtesy reasons, and once in a while it gets away. I think we are self correcting here and everyone pretty much realizes that this is a big soup bowl and most of us are struggling somewhat to parse soup when it can't be. Every time I think I have it worked out and am not struggling, but only here to help others, [lol] I find new loose threads of doubt wrecking the seam line of my dress!

I propose the best way to help each other is to encourage more talking and more detail, since final precision is out of the question. Teresa and his/her wife are struggling with the meaning of 'man'. They are struggling to estimate the relative balance of satisfiers in their life together. They are stumbling in the dark, and making the best of it each day. I'm speaking warmly here since I am in the very same position, as best I can tell.

Teresa,
I encourage you to bring back your 'outside' agenda to your circle here. I'm proposing to all members that it is better to make our circle big enough to hold all of your views, and let them be fully explored, for the benefit of the many likely to benefit from your sharing.

[Pat]

You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different.

I agree with the above. I think it's important for us all to trust that we each make the best choice for our own situation. We can provide information to others to help them choose their own path but we have to respect their choices. I often feel frustration, especially in the crossdresser's part of the forum, with people who are clearly on a path I rejected or who seem misinformed, but I have to respect them if I wish to demand respect myself. When the frustration level gets too high, I just close the browser and go read a book. ;) I'm not here to fix anybody. I'm just here to find my way to my own answer and to help those who want my help to find theirs.

270850

[Zooey]

To Sara Jessica and Jenniferathome,

You are part of a very small (3-5) group of people here who routinely get angry with me every time I post something that you take to suggest that you might not be what you believe you are. Since you are so confident in who and what you are (and aren't), why do you assume that when I use qualifiers like "the vast majority" I'm necessarily talking about you? For the record, prior to you responding, the only two people I was talking to in a specific way were Theresa and Krisi.


...is absolutely dismissive of what is likely to be an extraordinary number of human beings who somehow have it in them NOT to go down the transition path. My rock bottom is different from everyone else's, as are my coping mechanisms. You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different. Although this part of the rabbit hole leads nowhere, what I can say is that your dismissive attitude is no different than that of a huge swath of people in this world who utterly dismiss your experience.

Actually, I disagree quite strongly with that statement. First of all, if you have it in you not to transition, then good for you, because transition is hard. As you say later, it is a nuclear solution. The ability to make that choice, however, is precisely the difference between want and need. That difference is a rather significant one when considering this sort of thing.

Second of all, I have talked with TERFs. A lot. I know what they believe, and I know how they talk. What I am saying here is nothing compared to what they say. Frankly, I'm pretty sure I'd get banned for accusing people here of even one or two of the things that real TERFs will routinely throw out with ease. Incidentally, a few of those things (though far from all) are actually pretty rational concerns, and most of those are not actually about me.


You may not realize it but you have an ally in me and others like me. We have not taken your path. Someday some of us might. Others will go to our graves not having lived an honest life in your words. Personally, I'll take my chances with that because there are other truths in my life which are worth living for in the status quo. When all is said and done, I will be an advocate for any of us who is struggling with a potential nuclear solution when it comes to family and/or career in saying that there is another path, one less taken. As Teresa comes to whatever conclusion she may, I will respect her decision one way or the other.

Again, this is a question of want vs need. I am not telling you what you are, but I am telling you that the difference between want and need, illustrated pretty clearly by your ability to make a choice in the first place, is a rather fundamental one.

There's more that I could say on the topic of you (and others here) being effective allies to TS women or not, but it's not likely to be productive, and it's certainly not a topic for this thread.

[mykell]

You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different.


I agree with the above. I think it's important for us all to trust that we each make the best choice for our own situation. We can provide information to others to help them choose their own path but we have to respect their choices. I often feel frustration, especially in the crossdresser's part of the forum, with people who are clearly on a path I rejected or who seem misinformed, but I have to respect them if I wish to demand respect myself. When the frustration level gets too high, I just close the browser and go read a book. ;) I'm not here to fix anybody. I'm just here to find my way to my own answer and to help those who want my help to find theirs.


in jennies foto in post #69 is where i got my avatar saying, shortened and spelled differently to accommodate allowed characters so i can relate to it and what jennie shared, where i believe i am now compared to the day i joined is so different, the thing i try to do is respect what others here share with us, hard as it is sometimes.

i never understood how one persons truth is expected to be true for all who water here, this is a marathon for us all, who can honestly say they feel the same way about themselves now as they did getting here on day one, so how can we tell how another feels if how we do changes along the journey.... its funny....a lot of things here are true, yet not everyone likes that....

[Aunt Kelly]

FWIW, and for everyone...
In my experience, you are on thin ice when you try to categorize someone the way some here so frequently do. We are all individuals, see the world and ourselves through our own eyes. While we may invite, even welcome the viewpoint of others, when the response starts out with words like, "You're just a...", you've immediately become dismissive, describing the other as something "less than". There a lots of reasons for such behavior, I'm sure. I'm no expert in the field, but the words petty and insecure leap to mind. This isn't a contest and you don't win by being more this, or a purer that. I probably should not bat the beehive any more than it has been already, but I just had to say something about the tone of a thread that has become needlessly acrimonious.

[Gabby6790]

What I am getting from parts of this conversation is that:

The easiest situation would be to be TG and transition since you don't have a choice.

Being CD and thinking about being TG sounds angst ridden and difficult.

So, happy to only be CD and playing dressup.

[windshear]

I don't want to be mean or vindictive, but I feel a need to respond to a couple of these as I think I can articulate the problem a little better.


The reason you don't transition is because the vast majority of you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, and you don't need to. Pure and simple.
If someone else, in the same belittling manner, claimed that you were "just mentally ill" and your perceived "needs" were just "wants", it would be decried as bigotry. You are, I think unknowingly, employing the same bigotry and applying it to different people, do you not understand?

You are making assumptions about people you do not fully understand. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not speaking ill of you, I'm merely trying to point out what I perceive to be an error.


Again, this is a question of want vs need.
When you feel like you can make such broad claims about others you inevitably open yourself up to the same. You cannot have it both ways. By your own stated standards, there simply is no objective benchmark to say that you "needed" to transition any more than anyone else on here that has not, or will not, for any variety of reasons.

[Kate Simmons]

It seems to me that I don't want to be any less of a person, just more of a woman. :battingeyelashes::)

[Acastina]

Well said, Gabby. Boiled the whole thing down to a digestible essence, a precÃ*s.

Actually, none of the three is "easy". Even the most happy-go-lucky occasional, just-for-the-fun-of-it CD has arrived there with or after at least some issues. We're all acutely aware that we're up against a stubborn taboo, and we've all heard snide comments and crude jokes about cross-gender behavior from the unwashed masses and media, all our conscious lives.

It's also common to spend years assuring oneself that "I'm just a heterosexual crossdresser", only to (often abruptly) find oneself on a slippery slope of doubt and second-guessing. That's why this forum, with its several subgroups, is so valuable. We can traverse that slope, cling to it with our (painted) fingernails, or let gravity take us where it will, with the counsel and support (and sometimes criticism) of our fellow travelers, whose divergent perspectives can help us unpack whatever our particular life's-little-curve-ball happens to be.

[Zooey]

I don't want to be mean or vindictive, but I feel a need to respond to a couple of these as I think I can articulate the problem a little better.

Sigh.


If someone else, in the same belittling manner, claimed that you were "just mentally ill" and your perceived "needs" were just "wants", it would be decried as bigotry. You are, I think unknowingly, employing the same bigotry and applying it to different people, do you not understand?

First of all, plenty of people do precisely that. Many people here have done and do precisely that, including the person to whom I was originally responding to in this thread.


You are making assumptions about people you do not fully understand. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not speaking ill of you, I'm merely trying to point out what I perceive to be an error.

I generally take people at their word. When the majority of people here routinely assert that they are natal males who are straight straight straight men and that they just like to wear women's clothes because it's enjoyable and feels good to them, then I do not think that I am making an unreasonable assumption by saying that the majority of them are cisgender men who like to play dress up. You can argue with my tone, but I don't see the assumption that I'm making.


When you feel like you can make such broad claims about others you inevitably open yourself up to the same. You cannot have it both ways. By your own stated standards, there simply is no objective benchmark to say that you "needed" to transition any more than anyone else on here that has not, or will not, for any variety of reasons.

Please point me towards a broad claim that I've made that is not solidly based on what the people I'm describing in them have actually posted here, and I will consider your point.

Moreover, there is absolutely a benchmark for needing to transition. It's when not transitioning leads to unmanageable disruption, often an inexorable downward spiral, in the most fundamental aspects of your life, and the only way out of it is transition and living honestly. Alternatively, it's what a qualified diagnosis of a specified gender identity disorder (transexualism) used to mean, and really probably should still mean.

[windshear]

First and foremost thank you for the response, Zooey.


First of all, plenty of people do precisely that.And that becomes your license to do the same?


I generally take people at their word.I don't doubt that, but I think you've misinterpreted them.


When the majority of people here routinely assert that they are natal males who are straight straight straight men and that they just like to wear women's clothes because it's enjoyable and feels good to them ...So here's the point of contention: based on what I've read here (not to mention my own experiences) this absolutely is not a "just like" kind of thing. There are countless, innumerable threads out there that show that CDing is far beyond mere interest, hobby, "like", or even compulsive behavior. It is something much more and far beyond any of that. You calling it something we "just like" to do is like telling someone with a missing right arm that its just a "minor inconvenience".


Please point me towards a broad claim that I've made that is not solidly based on what the people I'm describing in them have actually posted here, and I will consider your point.
There's another thread open on page one right here- titled Is it a gift or a curse? Curious wording for something we "just like" to do, I'd think. Another one titled Do you "NEED" to dress or just "WANT" to dress? shows pretty clearly the same thing. But then you say, "Ah hah! Its a WANT, now isn't it?", yet countless threads employ a phrase: "Crossdressing is like the Mafia, You just can't quit". How many of the people who respond "want" could actually quit forever?

Probably the strongest evidence I've seen yet debunking your notion is the terminology "pink fog", something I'm really struggling with right now (and what prompted me to join this forum).


Moreover, there is absolutely a benchmark for needing to transition. It's when not transitioning leads to unmanageable disruption, often an inexorable downward spiral, in the most fundamental aspects of your life, and the only way out of it is transition and living honestly. Alternatively
That isn't an objective benchmark, Zooey. You're saying: "A because B". Your feelings "lead[ing] to unmanageable disruption, often an inexorable downward spiral, in the most fundamental aspects of your life", does not mean objectively that the prescription is transition. Use the following logic:


I want to be a woman badly enough that it is causing disruption in my life. Therefore, the only possible solution is to be given a woman's body (or a facsimile of one).

Parallels logically with:


I want the cash in the register behind the counter badly enough that it is causing disruption in my life. Therefore, the only possible solution is to be given the cash in the register.

Your feelings and the subsequent disruptions do not mandate transition as the only, possible, logical, solution. It sure is what you'd like to do, but it isn't objectively what you need. Now, I understand that this a quite confrontational and not-so-nice comparison. I want you to look more at the logical fallacy here than the content. I mainly want to prove the point that you opened yourself up to this exact line of scrutiny (want vs need) by asserting that people like myself "want", but don't "need" to CD. That's you declaring that something else could fill that void- something I think you need to rethink.

Others have been less eloquent in their passion on this issue. I don't think they simply want to go after you, I just think they want what they, and myself perceive clearly as their (or other's) needs acknowledged. Just like you perceive the need for transition.

[Zooey]

I think that you are missing the actual debate here. Apologies for my part in confusing it by responding to criticism I've received.


So here's the point of contention: based on what I've read here (not to mention my own experiences) this absolutely is not a "just like" kind of thing. There are countless, innumerable threads out there that show that CDing is far beyond mere interest, hobby, "like", or even compulsive behavior. It is something much more and far beyond any of that. You calling it something we "just like" to do is like telling someone with a missing right arm that its just a "minor inconvenience"

So, you're doing two things here. One, you're arguing that I'm dismissive of crossdressers. That's fair criticism, and while I have my reasons for the tone I take, it's irrelevant.

Two, you're making a point about whether CDs want or need to crossdress. I have no doubt whatsoever that there is an element of compulsion to it, although we clearly disagree on the nature of that compulsion and what constitutes a "need". I will learn from this thread so far and not even begin to describe my view on that here.

Beyond that though, I really don't care, because the discussion I was attempting to have with Theresa and Sara Jessica before people got upset over the "play dress-up" bit (and I made the mistake of responding to people) had little to nothing to do with whether CDing is a want, a need, a compulsion, or anything more than tangentially CD-related.

You provided two statements to illustrate your notion of my logic... I don't think that what you're comparing here is actually representative of my argument. Primarily, if you look at what I've been saying, I have never really been arguing whether some people have a perceived need to crossdress or not. If you read carefully, my issue has always been with the 1) those who claim to be TS but claim to be able to decide not to transition and 2) people who are CDs who say things like "I would totally transition, but <blah>". Here are some alternative statements for comparison that I would suggest.


I am (medically) starving and, without additional food, I will die. Therefore, the only possible solution is to eat


I am a woman. I was born with a male body, which is not aligned with my identity, leading to unbearable pain and/or death. Therefore, the only possible solution is to correct the alignment (the only known viable method being transition

There is no "choice" in either of those statements. There is a fundamental assertion in the second statement that trans women are women, of course. Some people here disagree with that, explicitly or implicitly. The phrasing you chose in your statements suggests you may be one of the latter.

My point is simply that if you are able to choose not to transition, then transition is not a need for you. That is the only point I've had any interest in making here, since my first post in the thread.

[NicoleScott]

The "no choice" argument is constructed in such a way that you'll always be correct. If you transitioned, you didn't have a choice. If you don't, you're not really TS. Being a woman in a man's body isn't your choice, but whether to, when to, and how to transition are choices.
I'm a crossdresser, not by choice. But I decide every day whether to crossdress or not.

[Zooey]

You are correct that anybody who has transitioned can claim they needed to. However, anybody who asserts they can make the choice, assuming we take them at their word, rather clearly does not need to, by definition.

[Judith96a]

Really? "Dress up" as in what a little girl does when she puts on a princess or mermaid costume? I don't play "dress up."

You are either completely obtuse or you choose to find the most offensive way to make your point. I am a man who is a cross dresser but "dress up" demeans virtually all cross dressers as if we are some joke. I am no less valid, no more of a joke, than you.

Here's someone playing "dress-up": http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?217197-Surprise-dress-and-fun-with-faces!&highlight=

Jennifer, having read subsequent posts I think that the offence is calculated and deliberate.
Actually I missed Zooey's remark until you called it out - simply because when I saw her post I yawned and skipped to the next one, as has become my habit. Nuff said?

[DIANEF]

Got to say I found that remark highly offensive too. What I do is far more than throwing on some clothes and make up and parading around admiring myself.

[Dana44]

I never in my life felt I was a male. I had to beat to my own drum and it took me a long while to come to peace with myself and my gender fluid condition. but yes were were raised as a man, but I knew in my heart that I was not a typical male, however I lived that way for a lot of years but secretly started to do things as a woman would do. I looked at all of their stuff and what they did to keep in shape as a female. So I had ahead start on understanding womanhood. I do know what feminine is and when I am that way I do feel that way. But some bigots here tell us that we are wrong. I do understand TS ways and I have said to myself that I was born male and I will die that way, although I might be dressed as a woman when that happens. But truthfully, I never though of myself as a male. I have much more in common with the females. Empathy is one of them. as well as compassion.

[windshear]

Time to say something controversial. :)


I never in my life felt I was a male.

I consider crossdressing in particular, to be an alpha-male pattern behavior.

Too often, alpha behavior is assumed to be synonymous with machismo- being obnoxious, defiant, belligerent or asserting their alleged greater masculinity- its not true "alpha-ism". Its simply emulating an extremist masculine stereotype and frankly indicates some insecurity.

I believe that the true alpha-male trait is deciding who you are, on your own terms. Choosing what you believe, who you identify with, how you feel and react to the world around you. Social norms may impact your outward behavior and choices (such as choosing to be in the closet), but they do not dictate who you've chosen to be at your core.

I would say that the choice many of us have taken- not simply the road less traveled, but the truly difficult path of being something different that what society has imposed upon you as its ideal, all while balancing and moderating your outward behavior no less- makes you more of a man than most. A true, alpha male.

Especially when one rejects typical masculine traits and behavior, instead familiarizing with and adopting of feminine traits and behavior. By one's own free will.

[Zooey]

Okay, as the list of people responding to it grows... I officially apologize for the "playing dress-up" remark. My intent wasn't malicious, but the tone was unquestionably dismissive. Some of that has to do with who I was directly responding to, but regardless... It was dismissive, so I'm sorry for that.

[Acastina]

Zooey, I never thought your intent was malicious. It was a flippant, indelicate way to characterize the vast range of behaviors that can fall under the description of (more or less) straight males wearing women's clothing on any basis more regular than a Halloween lark, but it it nevertheless a form of play for many (I would guess a majority). Serious, practiced, meaningful, grown-up play, but still play, especially for fetishistic CDs. It is more serious than a child's mermaid costume, and we are all aware of the many reasons, both implicit and those we express and own, why we do it, but, unless one is making a living from it or deeply ensnared in it as a core personality expression, it remains a form of play, just as our other hobbies might be. If it's more than a hobby, we're into that vast gray area between the poles of the binary, and I like to believe that area is vast and accommodating.

I found the analogy of wanting the money in the cash register to be an inappropriate one that completely failed to credit the debilitating angst that leads one (and one's therapists and other providers) to make the transition decision. There is such a thing as looking at how you spend your days and how your moods change and whether you're thriving in life, then taking a big step back and having no honest choice but to conclude that it's causing the requisite disruption of normal activities. At that point, you're at a diagnostic threshold that is beyond simply persuading yourself to transition.

I give you full points for standing your ground and trying to make that distinction. A few deductions for style...:hugs:

[windshear]

I found the analogy of wanting the money in the cash register to be an inappropriate one that completely failed to credit the debilitating angst that leads one (and one's therapists and other providers) to make the transition decision.

To be fair, I did make clear that the content of the analogy was less relevant than the logic within. I could have been more delicate with a better analogy, or simplysaid that "Just because you want something, or perceive to need it, doesn't mean the best or only solution is to give it to you."

In the past, transition is not something a doctor would have prescribed someone. Nor in the future, when doctors will most likely prescribe something different- be it an enhanced form of "transition" involving cloning or other technology, pharmaceuticals, or therapy. Objectively, it cannot be said that any one solution (no matter how desirable it may seem to someone at any given time) is factually the best one available.

The only reason I made this argument is because Zooey trivialized the self-perceived needs of others as "wants". It opened her up to the line of scrutiny that she is objectively no different. Human beings can only rely on their own eyes, ears and hearts to perceive the world around them. Their own perceptions is all they've got, and sometimes one's perception is wrong. They learn to correct it. Its not like Zooey can see into the hearts of these people and tell them objectively what their needs are- the notion is absurd. She cannot demand that we acknowledge her needs and not acknowledge ours.

I applaud her reflection on the issue, and her willingness to apologize.

[Becky Blue]

We get into trouble when we try and put other people on here into categories. There are a few people on this site who are basically saying I am X and if you are not like me you are Y. Some on here on both ends of the spectrum seem to struggle accepting that many of us on here do not fit into their simple categories. Gender is a continuum and we all sit somewhere along it. There are probably thousands of variations between us. If we stop trying to fit others into boxes we want them to fit into, this world here would be a happier place.

So that means some of us always want to be men, but dress like women sometimes, others want to be women and transition, other want to be women but are unable to transition, some of us want to be women some of the time, some of us don't know what we are and thats only 6 possibilities.

[Teresa]

Prancing around the house !

This was a comment my wife made about me being dressed around the house, I'm afraid I did stop her and ask if she felt she pranced around the house when doing the chores, she replied no ! I just shrugged my shoulders and added neither do I, it's part of me and I do the same jobs in the same way she does. I do cook all the meals and do most of the cleaning.

Zooey,
I respect you for making the apology, I remember once you saying it was your way of expressing yourself the same way your mother use to . I guess to her a spade was a spade too, no mincing of words !

[arbon]

I don't know how anyone who knows themselvels as a woman can choose to live as a man and thinks putting on some womens cloths from time to time makes it better.

[Suzanne F]

Becky that is the reason that some of us become upset. We are not men that wanted to be women. We are women who fought with everything we had to make the world treat us for who we have always been. I don't have any disrespect for cross dressers. Some of my closest friends consider themselves to be cross dressers or did in the past. Please hear us! When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

[pamela7]

Replying to the whole thread, I have a comment. We hide so much from others, from ourselves, some of us to the extent we go over 50 years without noticing the true who-i-am-ness. When the lid comes off, it can be explosive, or ot can be a series of minor eruptions; each step taken allows the next to be seen, and before the end, a person who thought they'd been male realised it had all been b/s. At every point in this journey, a person may well believe they are being honest with themselves, and even with others. It's all down to how buried it is.

After working with 100's of client on the whole gamut of life issues, I've given up predicting where a person's process will end up. Teresa might well discover that he is a she, or he might realise he is a he who prefers to present and live life as a woman. It's not up to us to judge or pre-judge, but to give the helping questions and insights along the way.

xxx Pam

[NewBrendaLee]

I don't want to be a man anymore.

[NicoleScott]

We jump all over each other for how we choose our words. Sometimes what was received was not what was intended. I'm not offended by "play dress up" - that's kind of what I do while realizing there's something deeper underlying. But for other CDers, it's not play, it's serious. We're not all the same (news flash). I dont like the use of "just a crossdresser", so I blow it off without responding. Say "just a transwoman" and heads explode.
An apology followed the "play dress up" comment. No malicious intent. I don't think there was malicious intent with Becky's use of "want to be", but a better choice of words would have been preferable and reflected the reality of "AM a woman", without a body to match.
I am a man, but not because i want to be one, I just am, and I embrace everything it means: son, brother, husband, dad, provider, handyman, hunter, fisherman, sports enthusiast, etc........except for that one rule: real men don't wear dresses. Not bad. 9 out of 10.
That brings me back to the OP title question. It's not about wanting or not to be a man, it's about discovering, accepting, and embracing what you are. Unfortunately, relationships with others make answers to the question not so easy.

[Jenny22]

I continue to be amazed at the insight of everyone to such challenging posts. I feel that being exposed to so many responses and differences of thought is a blessing that we all should enjoy to the fullest even if they don't match our's. That's how we learn and develop. Thank you, ladies for that!
As for moi, in my life I must be male, but I'd love to be a full time woman.

[Teresa]

Pamela,
That reply is the best I've read for some time, and so sums up my situation and I'd guess many others. To some of us the core of our CDing is so buried it takes far too long to finally come to the surface !

Arbon,
I know the answer to that now but not ready to reveal my thoughts yet.

[arbon]

Arbon,
I know the answer to that now but not ready to reveal my thoughts yet.

I don't know what the question was?

[mykell]

teresa by the comments that your wife uses towards you i really think it is disrespectful, almost like she thinks she is talking to someone other than the person who shared so much of theyre lives together with, i hope for a favorable resolve to your situation but your statements have me doubting it will but i wish you well


Zooey, I never thought your intent was malicious. It was a flippant, indelicate way to characterize the vast range of behaviors that can fall under the description of (more or less) straight males wearing women's clothing on any basis more regular than a Halloween lark, but it it nevertheless a form of play for many (I would guess a majority). Serious, practiced, meaningful, grown-up play, but still play, especially for fetishistic CDs. It is more serious than a child's mermaid costume, and we are all aware of the many reasons, both implicit and those we express and own, why we do it, but, unless one is making a living from it or deeply ensnared in it as a core personality expression, it remains a form of play, just as our other hobbies might be. If it's more than a hobby, we're into that vast gray area between the poles of the binary, and I like to believe that area is vast and accommodating.

P................................................. ................P
I give you full points for standing your ground and trying to make that distinction. A few deductions for style...:hugs:

acastina you make some good points.

i must be immune to zo's style and i dont understand all the offense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dress%20up

https://www.google.com/search?q=play&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=play+definition

folks here routinely express the clothing + time + venue = blending so your dressing for an event, my events have me dressing down.

the clothes make me feel good, they calm me, started to dress up at an early age as a boy.
they emphatically state they are not transgender and are not "gay" is this the very definition cisgender, but wearing the clothing of the opposite sex is gender non conforming. dont know how cisgender applies there

zooey was responding to someone who had some disparaging remarks about the pre-existance of someone who transitions in post #3, maybe she should get a pass on that reply, i have seen the posters very hateful version of that same argument from time to time. again to them it was a truthful statement and they will make the same every chance the get. does make some shock value though.

then J@H took offense to the comment to krisi and shared some fotos of zooey (which seemed like jen was kinda being demeaning) for what was a pretty accurate description of how some here identify which krisi does. later jen shared here : http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?246096-2016-Give-me-your-best-single-picture! and declared to be "playing"... took a lot of attention away from teresa's evolving situation

this was my rub from what ive seen, folks say theyre need to tell the truth and protest when someone challenges or offers a different version of truth, or opinions as some say. some come and dont even add value to the original post, bumping up theyre post count ? trying to troll ? too emotional ? there are enough people out there that hate us, cant we show a little more compassion towards each other here ?

teresa is at a vital cusp in her life from what im reading here and although zooey is aggressive with her truths about transition she means well when she tries to convey the seriousness of the decision to go all the way. teresa seemed to get offended and then appreciative eventually.

the thread was about Teresa and was trolled by rude posts with noting to do with teresa or her wife....

[Zooey]

I wasn't going to respond to the inclusion of an old photo thread of mine, but since it's been quoted/mentioned a couple of times...

For what it's worth I had been socially full-time (not out at work yet, but everywhere else) for a couple of months when that pic thread was posted, and had spent the afternoon in that dress at a women's (not trans) Meetup. I wouldn't call that "dressing" at that point by nearly any definition, regardless of the fact that I decided to take funny face selfies. Realistically, I was months into transition, although I didn't fully come to grips with the reality of that for another 3 months.

[Sara Jessica]

Please hear us! When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

Really??? So this is what it comes down to? My "choice" not to transition doesn't mean a thing with respect to the decision you make to transition. The Muggles who lack respect for what we have endured our entire lives do not weigh my decision against yours in choosing to be utterly dismissive of the trans condition. They already don't believe a thing we know to be true. My "choice" matters nothing. Many still see us as being some degree of mentally ill. I beg to differ. I know otherwise.

Honestly, I'm tired of walking on eggshells around the trans women who dismiss anyone who doesn't follow their path. You know nothing of what I have gone through in my life. You know nothing of what it takes for me to cope with my decision NOT to transition. Do you ever think for a moment that perhaps my existence is a charade? A coping mechanism? Or that of others like me? Are we strong for toughing it out as dudes or do we flirt with the wrong end of a barrel or bottle of pills? Do we self-medicate with prescription drugs or otherwise? Perhaps alcohol abuse to help us get through yet another day after day after day when we are not living as honestly, as authentically as the trans-community expects of us?

Oh, that's right...we are just playing dress-up.

The world knows nothing of my pain and in return, it knows absolutely nothing with respect to any relation of my pain to your transition. You need not worry yourself of such things.

It's about time you understand the pain you inflict on others with the narrative you prescribe. I understand you. I empathize with you. I envy you. I respect you more often than not. But let's get off this soapbox which dictates who is more holier-trans-than-thou. When all is said and done, you know nothing of what many of us go through who for whatever VALID reason do not follow YOUR path. In all honesty, my counsel to Teresa (bringing this full circle to the OP) is to do what she can to find balance in her life in order to save her marriage and family, assuming this is not at the expense of her sanity.

Said solution is not an indicator one way or the other as to her degree of trans-ness as measured by people who matter zilch in her day to day life.

<end/rant>

[windshear]

When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice.
Didn't see this until now, I think this is flawed. "The world" (a reference to society) has no power to tell you what lifestyle choices are right or wrong, in fact the only power society has over you is the power you give it. Denying your choice in the matter is merely an attempt to absolve yourself of responsibility for any undesirable consequences of that choice, that is not something I am willing to acknowledge.


Honestly, I'm tired of walking on eggshells around the trans women who dismiss anyone who doesn't follow their path.I applaud you, and I'd expand this beyond just trans women to include the rest of generation entitled.


Oh, that's right...we are just playing dress-up.
Zooey did apologize for this remark:

Okay, as the list of people responding to it grows... I officially apologize for the "playing dress-up" remark. My intent wasn't malicious, but the tone was unquestionably dismissive. Some of that has to do with who I was directly responding to, but regardless... It was dismissive, so I'm sorry for that.

[Becky Blue]

Becky that is the reason that some of us become upset. We are not men that wanted to be women. We are women who fought with everything we had to make the world treat us for who we have always been. I don't have any disrespect for cross dressers. Some of my closest friends consider themselves to be cross dressers or did in the past. Please hear us! When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

Suzanne, my complaint is aimed at people at both ends of the spectrum who dismiss anyone who is not transgendered and transitioned as mere men who crossdress. Speaking for myself I am a lot closer to your end of the spectrum than a male CDer. I know your struggle exists and is very real as my struggle exists too, the difference between us is, I am able to live happily (at this stage) with the duality and whatever level of GD I have it is not sufficient to require me to change my life.

I think that most people on this forum very much support your right to be whoever you want, but I am less sure that as many accept those of us who are somewhat in the middle.

[Lysette]

Wow, this got pretty involved and went in a lot of directions. As for the OP: I'm right there with you. I have said on many occasions that I could be happy doing away with all hair. I'm still just getting adjusted to this whole CD thing, but it's certainly a lot more fulfilling and freeing than before I started it. Who knows how far it might go, but at this moment, I'd have to agree.

Lysette

[Suzanne F]

Ok seems I have joined the ranks of the dark side. If that is the sentence of the CD court so be it. Again, I support and love people who cross dress. I am secretly in love with Nadine and Jennifer at Home. Both whom I have hung out with and enjoyed. I don't begin to think anyone has to transition or handle their gender issue like me to be right. What I was trying to convey is that we don't choose to be trans. There are many choices concerning transition and timing. I have not done it exactly like Zooey , Sue or Bad Tranny or Arbon(Theresa). We have had different paths to transitioning. None of us agree on everything. We do agree that at some point we had to face who we were. When we did that there was a sweet freedom that can't be taken from us. Sara Jessica I don't pretend to know what you have been through. You may want to ask around about what I have faced and came through in my life. Oh, what was I thinking. I magically got a vagina at 50 and everything was easy concerning my career and family life.

[Jenniferathome]

I don't know how anyone who knows themselvels as a woman can choose to live as a man and thinks putting on some womens cloths from time to time makes it better.


Theresa, you said something over dinner that struck me as a real litmus test for cross dressers. In fact, Becky from the UK wrote something very similar. What I recall you saying was that you cross dressed on a few occasions thinking/hoping that you were a cross dresser. The result, however, was that cross dressing didn't satisfy anything in you and didn't make you feel comfortable. As a cross dresser, the clothes/temporary transformation provide all the satisfaction needed.


and Suzanne, thanks for the shout out!

[Judith96a]

Very succinct, Jennifer!
The clothes and the temporary transformation "does it" for me. I may want more of the same (Judith time is usually too short) but I don't want anything more (ie anything else).

On a lighter note... A wise man warned me, some years ago, to be wary of taking illustrations / metaphors too far. So, litmus! You do know that it's acid that turns blue (boy?) litmus to pink (girl?)? That's one metaphor that we can do without!

[CONSUELO]

I thought that the post from Pamela7 (#93) was thoughtful and apt.
For me cross dressing has been a journey of self discovery that is not yet over. Looking back at the cross dresser I was in my teens I realize how ignorant I was of myself as a cross dresser.

We love to talk of being placed somewhere on a spectrum as if cross dressing and transgenderism can be described in linear terms. We are much more complicated than that and so should always be wary of projecting our experience onto others.

I believe I understand Teresa when she expresses doubt about remaining a man. We all know that the next step may be very complicated and difficult, so my sympathies are with her.

Despite some testiness during this discussion, Teresa has opened up one of the core questions facing our community.

[Rogina B]

When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

I agree ! "Choice" is being used against the T world in a huge way these days by people that don't want ANY of us to exist. And it is being used to paint all with a broad brush. I believe many of us "were born this way" and have different needs than "normal"lol people. We all should have the freedom to be ourselves. "Choice" is very often the opposite and part of the plan to control and decide for us how we are to live.

[phili]

Teresa,
I'm of the opinion that males and females share 99% of genes and character, and the remaining differences for sexual procreation and plumage are given sooo much weight,and then elaborated into complex power and privilege, that we forget our wholeness and concentrate on trying to buy space on the female shelf.

I'm doing this too, and for me a few small indicators are enough to let me claim space in the feminine mystique. Certainly some of us feel strongly we have to go a lot farther, perhaps until we have exorcised any remnants of being a male. I think that is reflective of the pain that being a man in society has given.

Is the grass is greener when female. I have my doubts- since the same splitting occurs for females. It would be reasonable to choose that side since it just feels more authentic, and not look back. Some of us are all in support of the binary, and just want to switch teams. If you don't have doubts, this probably is the answer.

If you have internal doubts, that may indicate you keep expanding the blessings by broadening the ways you straddle the fence. I can say from experience a lot of the pain starts to go away.

[PretzelGirl]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

[Sara Jessica]

Nicely said Sue, I really appreciate your input.

Choice is just a word. In my case it is an action. In your case it need not apply because there are other ways to describe how you went about to making the fateful realization of the path you wold end up taking. But the main thing is that anyone who would use "this is a choice" against any woman who transitions doesn't cite "Sara" as an example as a means to support their contention.

I too believe in levels of dysphoria but also in the fact that there are different ways to manage it. Five+ years ago, I was at the high level you mentioned. When taking stock of my personal situation and what the likely fallout would be for my marriage, my family and obligations towards them, I was somehow able to get my head around cutting off that dysphoria at the knees in order to better manage it going forward. My daily battle is different than yours or any other woman here who is on the transition path. It is certainly more private which may or may not include none, some or all of the examples I provided in my last post. And I fully acknowledge that there may very well be a day in the future when I feel as driven once again. Or maybe not. Who's to say which one is the lucky one?

In other words, I too didn't choose to be trans. But if there is any semblance of choice to be had when evaluating what to do about it, I'll be darned if I'm not going to exercise that option and stave off what many see as inevitable with every ounce of my being.

[Teresa]

Sue,
That's so well put, thanks for a thoughtful reply.

Oh that word "DRIVEN" if only that energy could be diverted elsewhere !
I have been driven for almost 60 years , somehow I have to find a way to finally control it , I know it's a fine balancing act and our brain chemistry is almost as different as our fingerprints !

[Nikki.]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

Thank you for posting that. I agree with you, but it's not always a popular opinion on this particular forum.

[AllieSF]

Thanks for your sane and sage input here Sue. I haven't attempted to post in this thread as it turned in this related and contested topic area. If more TS's would be able to voice their needed input as well as you have, some of the past us vs. them, and trannier than thou discussions would be greatly diminished. Thanks again.

PS: You have mentioned the sensitivity to the use of the word "choice" as a hot button word for you. Think of the phrase "play dress up" as it relates to many here in the same way.

[mykell]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transsexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

i get the caution with the word "choice", but as ive read by transsexuals and talked to them personally this phrase is most used, "i had no choice but to transition or i would not be here today"..... a common denominator....a harsh reality....certainly something folks should not be dismissive about....

your very well worded thoughts were refreshing to hear sue, but i imagine its tough to temper your words when you feel you have been marginalized by a vile and poorly worded post as this :


:Angry3:
I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

True, there are a few males whose desire to be female is so strong that they are willing to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

:rant: again zo was responding to this, is it not insulting to have your prior existence marginalized to have not existed, does size matter if at your core you are a women, that your desire to be a women is merely a fantasy, your not thinking seriously, has anyone in the transsexual forum come here in the beginning and assumed they were just crossdressers only to undeniably learn enough to realize they were indeed a women theyre whole life and corrected it.........this poster uses this quote on a regular basis and this was a toned down example.....for me the "cis male play dressup" remark deserved a pass as it was geared towards someone who regularly marginalizes many here with the frequency of a cheap ham radio and disrupts many a thread whether intentionally it happens often.:rant:

[Zooey]

I consider Sue a very good friend, and in this area we disagree. She knows we disagree on the semantics of some things - it's not a surprise to either of us. :) I think it might be worth clarifying some things, because perspective matters here. Maybe this will allow some of you to decide to just ignore me outright when you see me talking, and maybe some of you will understand where I'm coming from a bit better.

This stuff is complicated. I take a view on it that is based on my experiences before, during, and (for want of a better term) after transition. So does Sue. We all have different perspectives though, and that affects some fundamental precepts that often lead to other conclusions. What is a natural conclusion of my precepts may be in conflict with some of yours, and vice versa. Some of us are deeply invested in the trans community. For perspective, I am not (at least not in the broader sense).

There are a variety of names used on the internet for people more or less like me - truscum, transmedicalist, transexual separatist, etc. Some people think that's a horrible thing to be. Some think it's the only thing to be. Personally, I don't think it's either of those, but it is what I am. Plenty of people, especially trans people, disagree with me - I'm used to it, and it's not like I hate (or even dislike) them for it. Both online and offline, the vast majority of my female friends are cis, and the overwhelming majority of those are capital-F Feminists, as am I. I hold a view that in some ways straddles the line between trans identity politics ("I am whatever I say I am, no matter what") and the definition of gender based on sex-based-oppression of moderate to hardline feminism. I believe strongly in social, legal, and especially medical transition as essential for actually laying any credible claim to the identity of woman in society, because I believe that there are substantial differences that are based on primary and sexual characteristics, including neurological ones, that can and do fundamentally alter one's relationship with the world around them; both the perspective from which they see it, and (related) the way the world treats them. It's the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" thing. In my opinion, if you want to be considered a Venusian and have any real sense of what it's like to be one, you kinda have to move to Venus permanently, and there's a necessary process for that...

To use a subtly different metaphor, nobody knows what it's like to be a New Yorker when they've only been for a few weeks each year to see some shows. Most real New Yorkers I know don't take kindly to people who've been there on vacation claiming their city because they happen to have a favorite bagel place and love Broadway.

So, to sum up, I don't care about "transness". I think most of the people here are probably substantially "more trans" than me in a lot of ways. I care about "woman"/"female", the relationship between them, and the distance between them and "man"/'male". When I talk about fundamental differences, that is often the difference I'm talking about. If you know yourself as a woman but are able to choose to live as a man, then I'm not telling you that you're wrong, but I am telling you that you are fundamentally different from me in some significant ways. The same applies for somebody who claims to live as a woman, but is physically strictly male. In both cases, I'm deeply sorry for the pain your dysphoria causes you, but I would struggle to consider you a woman in the same way as the cis and medically transitioning women I know.

This is just my view. You most likely hold a different one. Anybody is welcome to engage me, and I'll gladly engage with you in return. Just know, this is where I'm coming from, and if you're not interested in debating somebody with that perspective, then it's probably not worth it.

[Georgette_USA]

Yes the word "choice" can be fraught with problems.

Couple years back my sister told me how her son's new family was so proud of my choices. I don't hide my background, but don't advertise it either. I have never met them and they live in Illinois. Asked her how that even came up in any of their conversations.

She said my nephew was always so proud of me, that he told them all about me. Reminded her that it was not a choice, but it was a life or death thing. And I didn't appreciate my life being like a show and tell thing like in school.

I am glad that my whole family is proud in all of what I have done. Sometimes we forget how the cis people that we know, can never truly understand what we all go thru.

[PretzelGirl]

Allie, I think that last statement is already in the dust of this thread and put behind us.

Mikell, "Had no choice" is very descriptive. I never said "will I" or "won't I", I said I get it and it is time to go through the process. It wasn't even considered a choice. So I think we are agreeing there.

As far as Krisi, they have consistently shown they don't get it. One thing I advocate regularly on this forum is that if it isn't a path you went through or ended up on, you should not be talking about it as an expert. If you haven't been there, you just don't know. I went through a long period of "crossdressing" while I figured myself out. All the while, I was noticing differences between me and other local crossdressers. I ended up presenting female in almost all situations outside of work. When I reached that point, is when my mind couldn't continue and my dysphoria crashed me. No choice. No thought on making a choice. Just moving.....

There are so many people here I have met and are my friends, that I want to understand each and every one. We will never be on the same sheet of music entirely because identities are so complex and personal. Sara has been a friend for years and I adore her. Zooey and others were there for my surgery and I love them dearly (they became good friends with my daughter too). It makes for an interesting viewpoint sometimes as I suspect cross-pollenation of people with different identities tends to be not so common. And if I keep talking like this, I might have to become a politician some day. :heehee:

[Georgette_USA]

Have NO interest in debating anyone on "Transness".

Since coming back into the new for me world of all this TG/TS and transition definitions. I could not understand people that didn't go all the way thru medical transition. For me that was the only outcome. For my partner and I we moved out to the suburbs and just grew old as two women.
BUT I have learned to be tolerant of other peoples views.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
Why would you struggle to consider someone as a woman ?

I know I've only been in a situation to meet other members of the TG community for a year but as I've said before we don't know in our social group where we are are on the spectrum so we have to treat each other as equals. I know some have had full SRS and I'm finding more are on hormones as I get to know them , I don't understand where the struggle comes into it . It's not a help group but at times we do compare stories to help each other along.

[KymberlyOct]

Zooey thank you for taking the time to educate others on your perspective, hopefully it will be read by many and save both yourself and others aggravation in the future and stick to discussion points instead of getting personal. I thought it was very well said.

And Sue, I am of the same school of thought as you regarding levels of gender dysphoria, which I think is proven out by 1. The variety of subforums on this site and 2. the 'spirited' LOL debate that sometimes occurs here.

My question is where is the line between 'want to' vs. need to transition? I am moving toward full time including my legal name change for which I have a court date set. Do I simply want to transition or need to? For me it is a gray area. Could I continue to live as male? Well sort of. I would not commit suicide or harm myself and I could put one foot in front of the other. Would I be happy and lead a fulfilled life? Definitely not. So do I need to transition? To live - No. To be alive - yes.

My issue is with those that

1. Criticize others - not asking thought provoking questions or provide contrary positions- (that is what Zooey does ) rather tell them they are wrong or tell them what they should do or not do when they have never lived it themselves.

2. Post such as Krisi's - maybe she meant no disrespect and maybe it hit too close to home for me - but for me it was painful. Yes 'Suzie' did exist but 'Suzie' was afraid to be who she really was because of being judged / ridiculed / ostracized. I AM SUZIE - I am 6 2 and will always be clocked as trans. And why did I not transition earlier in life? Your post is exactly why. I just wish I had all those years back and even more I wish I had not thought the way that you currently do. I am glad I now see the light to live my truth and have found the courage to do so.

[Zooey]

Why would you struggle to consider someone as a woman ?

Because the further removed the reality of someone's life is from that of other women, the less reasonable it is to consider them a woman. That includes social, physiological/medical, and a host of other kinds of differences. From experience, I can say that the physiological/medical differences are PROFOUND, and fundamentally shape your relationship with the world around you.

Bear in mind that in my view, innate gender identity is the catalyst. Transition, and the life that follows, is the process of becoming.

[Nikki.]

Zooey, honest question: why would you even bother to read or post in this section? if you identify as a fairly radical feminist, why read a forum inhabited by a majority of people who identify as male and many of which have a rather fetishized and or sexualized version of women they want to emulate? in most cases I doubt you're going to change hearts and minds.

I don't read huff po or breibart because both just piss me off, and I can't stand the marketing of political devisiveness, for a bunch of reasons.

In no way am I insinuating you shouldn't be here or shouldn't post, I just don't get it.

[Zooey]

A few things...


Radical feminism is actually more than a few steps further than where I sit. I align most closely with the harder side of 3rd wave feminism, which is effectively descended from the moderate to liberal segment of second-wave feminists. The radical feminists are almost universally descended from a fringe branch of second wave feminism.
There are people here discussing issues like transition, femininity, and what it means to identify and live as a woman/female. I try to stay out of threads that are not talking about that. A fair amount of that discussion here is largely conducted by men with little to (in most cases) no actual experience with any of that, and I see value in having participation from women (both cis and trans) who do, even if it falls on deaf or misinterpreting ears a fair bit of the time. For the record, I ALSO participate in limited ways in some TERF discussions online, because it has been my experience that having exposure to moderate trans women with whom they have a bit of philosophical overlap makes a real difference in the way all but the most ideologically pure of them feel about the issue.
Believe it or not, engaging with both CDs and transsexuals was a big part of what made it possible for me to see in plain terms the differences and similarities with myself, and have my moment of real self-acceptance. So in a very real sense, this forum has helped me, and I see value in paying forward the presence of the type of viewpoints that helped me, just in case. Eventually, I'll get tired of that, and in fact I mostly already am (for a variety of reasons).

[Teresa]

Zooey,
The problem I see with paragraph 2. is you are forgetting most of us are married and live with women, part of my home is not on Mars and the other isn't on Venus, I've had relationships with women all my life, we have a close up view of cis women. I'm sure we ape many of the things our wives do and the same for our partners, emulating and identifying with women happens most days without thinking. I often find I'm in a domestic situation and think how would my wife do this ? From dealing with with children and grandchildren to attempting to arrange a vase of flowers. I'm sure most of us get guidance from them on how to dress and put on makeup and other little things we find makes them appear more feminine, didn't most of our partners learn all that in the same way from their mothers ?

[Zooey]

Knowing women is not the same as knowing what it is to be one.

What you are describing are the surface details of visible actions. What you are missing is the motivation, the perspective, and the relationship with the world that in some cases makes those reactions the natural ones, or the emotional undercurrent associated with them (which is not always positive). No two women are the same, but what I can assure you is that we see many of those same actions in a pretty radically different way. Even a simple thing like something that is a pleasure for you (e.g. makeup or heels) being an obligation for us creates a huge gap in perception. Some women enjoy makeup, some don't, but unlike your life heretofore women suffer under a societal expectation that we MUST do those things, or be seen as less. Less attractive, less confident, less successful, less any number of things. There are loads of knock on consequences of that, and those have consequences, ad infinitum. I don't know a single woman, including those who LOVE makeup, that wouldn't love to get 20-60 minutes back every morning if they felt they could.

[Becky Blue]

Zooey, of course you are entitled to your opinion and of course many of us are entitled to disagree with you. if I dare to paraphrase you you are saying that in your opinion you can only know what it is like to be a woman if you transition?

There are many ways that one could define a woman, one could be based on chromosomes, some would say only someone with XX is a woman. Others would say having a womb and all the other female body parts is what makes one a woman. Some would say that even after GRS, hormones etc one is still not a woman. My point is that it is all relative. I don't agree that gender has to be a hard line, a person can be a man at times and a woman at other times if that is what they feel.

[Zooey]

Consider this, which is admittedly anecdotal. I have never met a trans woman who, following HRT, going full-time, and living as a woman, felt that their understanding of what it means to be a woman had not changed/evolved dramatically in the process.

What is rapidly becoming clear to me is that people who are not transsexual have no ability to really understand what it's like, and that people who have not actually lived as women have no ability to understand what that's really like. It follows that I have no idea what it is like to be a cis woman, but there are many many ways in which we share experiences based on our physiology, endocrinology, perception, and treatment at the hands of others.

[Becky Blue]

Zooey, where do you draw the line? and why does it matter? I have experienced many 'womanly' experiences. I have been out, interacted, danced, eaten, drank, dressed, walked around, shopped, talked, laughed, cried etc etc etc... all of them as Becky... why are my experiences less valid because 2 days later I am back in my male world?

I am not a man in a dress when i am out, even when I am in 'male mode' i am not a traditional male, I don't like male pursuits, I don't relate to groups of guys and I am not one of the boys. I think that my brain is probably 70/30 F/M. My point is I feel that way but don't feel the requirement to go further. Of course there are many woman's experiences I have not experienced some of which i would guess you haven't either, so where do you draw the line?

[Rogina B]

Zooey, where do you draw the line? and why does it matter? I have experienced many 'womanly' experiences. I have been out, interacted, danced, eaten, drank, dressed, walked around, shopped, talked, laughed, cried etc etc etc... all of them as Becky... why are my experiences less valid because 2 days later I am back in my male world?

I am not a man in a dress when i am out, even when I am in 'male mode' i am not a traditional male, I don't like male pursuits, I don't relate to groups of guys
As a TSerious,I can relate to your argument. However,I am with Zooey in this one. A transitioned person is fully committed to "living the life with no escape"..That isn't the same as being part time.

[Peggie Lee]

The body whether it has a penis or uterus on it is simple a vessel for the soul the inhabits it. People need see and listen to the soul tells them who they are.

[Becky Blue]

As a TSerious,I can relate to your argument. However,I am with Zooey in this one. A transitioned person is fully committed to "living the life with no escape"..That isn't the same as being part time.

Rogina, no one says its the same, but Zooey (and I am happy to be corrected) is saying if your not transitioned then your a male in a dress (to put it bluntly). All i am saying is its not that simple, shades of grey so to speak.

[arbon]

Becky what is a womanly experience? What makes it different than a manly experience?

When I'm at my night job wearing the same cloths as the guys and no make up which experience am I having?

[Zooey]

Becky, you are by and large talking about surface features. I am not. I am talking about things that I'm not sure you can possibly perceive from your position.

I'm not sure it's possible to explain to you in a way you will accept, so I will simply leave it at this. If you ever end getting rid of effectively all your testosterone, replacing it with estrogen, and living and working full-time as a woman (even a visibly trans one), then please let me know whether you still feel the same way after a year or two of that.

And no, I will never experience a pregnancy, childbirth, or a menstrual cycle (though I do get some of the symptoms). I'm fully aware, thanks.

[Becky Blue]

No I am not Zooey, it not simply surface, a couple of examples, I have experienced the feeling when a man stares at me, I have felt what its like to be objectified. I know how a woman feels when a guy tries to kiss you because he feels he can.

My point is its not black and white some people are men some are women some are both in various kinds of blends.

[Zooey]

That's fine, but to carry a metaphor I used earlier forward... A lot of people who have visited New York know what it's like to get mugged. What they don't know is what it means to deal with such things so much, directly and indirectly, that you become numb to it. To become resigned to it, and the guilt, shame, and other emotions that often follows.

I want to preface this by saying that there are a zillion wonderful things about womanhood, but this post is not focusing on them.

You've felt objectified. I'm sorry that happened to you, and it's a valid experience that gives you some insight. Have you dealt with eventually resigning yourself to the fact that you're going to be objectified one way or another pretty much every time you leave the house? Have you ever had your boss objectify you, e.g. having a conversation about your job performance with you while periodically staring at your chest? Have you ever had to deal with a day full of people at work telling you that "you look really tired" or asking if "you're having trouble keeping up" just because you were in a rush (or just didn't feel like it) and didn't do your usual makeup that morning? Have you ever sat in a meeting and offered a suggestion, only to have it ignored until a man in the room (who you outrank) said the exact same thing and got credit for a great idea?

Most importantly, have you dealt with all of that stuff enough to where you just assume it's a part of life, and that even though you feel like a doormat sometimes and you're angry, you know that if you allow yourself to get visibly frustrated by it they'll just call you "too sensitive"; or a bitch anyway?

You have had some experiences. I've never said that you haven't. But it's very different when it. is. your. life. Every day. All the time. No escape valve. That is life, and it colors and shapes everything about you.

[Lorileah]

Honestly I have no idea where this thread is in the weeds. I am confident it isn't about the OP anymore.

Done