Interesting sighting and conversation

[Becky Blue]

So the other night 3 couples were out for dinner, the restaurant was right next door to a cinema complex. It was a warm night and we were eating outside. One of the women said OMG look and there no more than 20 meters away was a shortish almost bald guy with a very neat trimmed beard and moustache in a red knitted dress. He was wearing no makeup, had a small woman's handbag and plain flats. He was standing casually chatting with some people.

As you can well imagine the next 15 minutes of conversation was taken up by our sighting. No one at the table knows about Becky, so it was very interesting hearing the views of 3 middle aged women and 2 other guys all of whom have no exposure to our world and I was able to ask some interesting questions very carefully. I am simply restating their views and will only give my opinion at the end.

Everyone thought he looked ridiculous and the general consensus was that there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to dress up like a woman and go out in public. They felt that he was mocking trans people and women by wearing the dress with the beard. The view was if you want to go out in public in a dress then shave the beard. They felt that he could have perhaps dressed in more gender neutral clothes and kept the beard, but that not only was he in a dress but a red one at that, almost like look at me.

All 3 woman agreed that they had no problem with a properly dressed CD/Trans person using the ladies bathroom, but would not feel comfortable with him there. The conversation them veered off talking about crossdressers and Trans people... there is a lot of ignorance out there lol and I had to be very careful to not know too much... ignorance but not negativity I am pleased to say.

It is quite ironic that I had started a thread about facial hair as I found the topic quite interesting and then I see a guy with a beard and red dress :) i have to say the belief from the other 5 people that he was mocking trans people and women was interesting.. and I have to agree it wasn't a good look. I fully support people's right to wear what they want when they want, but I can't argue with the logic of my 5 friends either

[immindy]

Gosh , I am sure this will stir up a number of opinions for sure . Myself , I would agree with your friends I think we need to present as woman as best we can and then it seems people respect us then . My personal experience is that if I present well people respect me. I realize many would disagree with that and people should have the right to dress as they wish . But it is what it is . so yea :)

[Christina D]

I think what makes talking about things like this (and, one could argue, gender identity in general) is that unless someone tells you how they identify and how they choose to present that identity, you can't really know. Our own members here are reflective of that. There are certainly many of us here who make it our own personal goals to present as womanly as possible, to ideally be indistinguishable from a GG. However, that's not for everyone. Then, there's the complicated issue of outward presentation versus internal gender identity. I, for one, go for complete passability while knowing and accepting that I am not a woman, but there are plenty of us who do feel that we are women in men's bodies or any of the other combinations that make up the gender spectrum.

Now, it could be for this individual that you saw that they are a happily cisgendered man who just likes to wear womens clothes, and that's fine. Maybe he doesn't feel the need to pass. Who knows? Answer: only he/her/they do.

And this brings us to the heart of what makes any non-standard gender identity laws, policies, and even individual perceptions so difficult to face: the fact that one stranger cannot know another stranger's "intentions." I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about the current bathroom laws situation, but I feel compellef to bring it up as an example of this. What many opponents (even those who would say that they have nothing against transfolk) of transfolk using the bathroom that matches their gender identity say is that if someone who cannot pass as a man or woman enters the bathroom, how can others be sure they aren't going to do anything lewd or harmful to others? Who knows if they "really identify" as a man or woman? Answer: only him/her/they can.

[Acastina]

I would quietly celebrate that all five of your companions validated and accepted a transgender person (of whatever degree) publicly presenting as close as can be to a convincing woman. It seems that what bugged them was the gender twist, the visual and conceptual clash of unshaved facial hair and so stereotypically feminine a garment as a red dress. The bearded lady is a classic circus freak, after all.

It would follow from this experience that at least your present company wouldn't have a negative reaction to someone such as, well, yourself, presenting your best efforts publicly. Assuming your friends are fairly typical of your local demographic, I would feel reassured that a terrible reaction would not be the likely result of an outing en femme. In other words, if your whole group was that overtly tolerant, your community environment is above average in my experience.

[Rachelakld]

Seen a few in the city with what to me is a 4 month beard and a dress.
One had her girlfriend with her and was trying on platform shoes, very girlie girl.
The other came across as gruff manly man so I doubt anyone would challenge him.
Both seemed happy

[Lucy23]

They felt that he was mocking trans people and women by wearing the dress with the beard. The view was if you want to go out in public in a dress then shave the beard.
Did you ask why they felt that way? I think I get why the conclusion, but as Christina pointed out, we don't know his intentions. And while I agree that the beard makes it even more stranger, would they felt the same way had he shaved? He has still a man in a dress.

Last summer I saw two young men wearing women's dress where I live. One was wearing what could be described as "little white dress" and heavy boots and was surrounded with bunch of English speaking alcohol drinking loud mouths (English is not my native language). He had no beard, and I guess he was having a stag party. The other one wore what seemed like a horribly cut air hostess' uniform, again surrounded by bunch of other guys. This is what I would call mockery of trans people.

[Julie MA]

Complex topic and I am still trying to figure out all of this. But seems many of us strive to pass, because we respect the all feminine look. Some don't. If we want CD and Trans acceptance it should be for everyone throughout the genger spectrum. I know society is far from that, but we have made rapid progress of late.

This comment is not about the bathroom choice/rights issue, per se. But, why is it some assume a CD or Trans person is going to do something lewd or abuse someone else in a bathroom? Especially if they appear to be intentionally non-passable? Arent most sexual assaults perpetrated by cisgender men, in men's clothes?

[Krisi]

You had a conversation with five "normal" people (as far as you know). You got a taste of the real world and the opinions of non crossdressers and non transsexuals. That's good. It helps to hear how these people feel about us.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

If your friends saw a bearded man in a dress every day they'd cease to notice. It's the unusualness that struck them, as much as anything. What seems odd to me is that they then spent time as a group digesting and reacting to this thing they'd seen - how narrow their thinking must be, given that these are the same people who have watched planes flying into skyscrapers, terrorists beheading their fellow citizens, mankind landing on the moon, etc, etc- you'd think they'd take such a small innocent thing as a bearded man in a dress in their stride...

[Krisi]

.......... you'd think they'd take such a small innocent thing as a bearded man in a dress in their stride

Nope. They saw something unusual and had a conversation about it. That's pretty normal. If a clown had walked by, they probably would have had a conversation about that. If a woman had walked by in a bikini, they would have had a conversation about that.

[Penton]

I agree with both Nikki and Krisi. A man with a beard has as much right to wear a dress as anyone. I always go back to Eddie Izzard a great example. I wear a beard and a dress and lack the confidence (in myself And in society) to do it publicly. But I will also say, if I did go out publicly dressed that way I'd use the men's room.

[Helen_Highwater]

I'm old enough to remember when seeing someone from elsewhere, i.e. the West Indies or India/Pakistan would initiate significant discussion as it was something new, a novelty, some saw it as threatening. It was the unusual, the unknown. Man in a dress in a public situation is the same. If men in dresses, with or without beards became commonplace then it would cease to be an issue to all but a few die hard bigots.

Here's the difference. Men in dresses isn't likely to become commonplace anytime soon. Also people who see a CD'er fully dressed, wig, makeup the full monty have an existing reference point, it's a man dressing and presenting as a female. They don't have the same anchor when presented with someone male dressed in female clothes but not attempting to present as female. In their mind they can't answer the question "Why?".

[Jenniferathome]

...Everyone thought he looked ridiculous and the general consensus was that there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to dress up like a woman and go out in public. ...

What this says to me is that the expected image and the actual image were too far disconnected for the average person to embrace.

This has nothing to do with one's right to wear what they want, and everything to do with the reasonable reaction of the average person to expected norms.

[Shayna]

Nope. They saw something unusual and had a conversation about it. That's pretty normal. If a clown had walked by, they probably would have had a conversation about that. If a woman had walked by in a bikini, they would have had a conversation about that.

Completely agree with this. The other night, me and my wife saw a D-list celebrity from the 80's around LA who drives around heavily made up in a pink corvette. We talked about her the whole night because it was out of the ordinary. There's also a guy who walks around the Hollywood area dressed as Jesus and I've had several conversations with people about him.

That being said, if he wants to have a beard and wear a dress I've got no problem with it. Just someone being who they are, even if it is out of the ordinary.

[Becky Blue]

As expected a lot of interesting responses... many of us only get to talk about the whole CD/TG topic with each other or with SO's family or friends we have shared with. For me this was a unique opportunity to discuss crossdressing with 5 people with no agenda.

Let me say that all of us here are inherently biased, we have way more knowledge than the average person out there. I also wanted to be clear that this person was not unshaven, he had a very neatly trimmed beard and moustache.

Christina, there is a huge difference between someone trying to pass and perhaps not succeeding and wearing a dress with a beard and moustache. I think the person we saw had very clear intentions.

Acastina, yes it was very heartening that they all seemed to think that a guy presenting as a woman was acceptable, but it was more than a circus freak they felt it was mocking.

Lucy, I could not ask directly as that could have raised suspicions, but one comment which gained general agreement was that a beard and moustache are something only a male can have so why bother to present with a red dress and such a uniquely male face, if not to mock?

Julie, the women were not concerned about sexual assault in the ladies room, a male sexual predator could just walk in, why the need to frock up? they said they would feel uncomfortable with a guy in a dress who is so obviously not trying to look female.

Nikki, firstly I disagree what got to them was the fact that someone had chosen to wear a dress (red one too.. as in look at me in bright colours) with facial hair. Secondly if we spent all our time discussing serious matters only the world would be a very unhappy place... I think the fact that 5 (plus me) relatively normal educated intelligent people spent 15 minutes talking about crossdressing and transgender in a mostly positive way is makes the world a better place than talking about beheadings.

Krisi, well said, except not so sure about the bikini it was close to 100f at 8pm

Penton and others no one said he doesn't have the right to do what he did, it is within the law in Australia, but just because he has the right doesn't mean what he was doing was necessarily good for our community.

Jennifer, could not have put it better myself.

I believe that CD/Trans people are well down the road to more acceptance, I do think that we have a responsibility to assist ordinary people to accept us as normal, going out as a half male half female in my opinion is not helping, as it can encourage people to think freak!!

[TrishaTX]

a couple of thoughts..

Certainly anyone can wear anything, but optically we are trained a certain way to accept things, so it does look odd(I have seen a few CDs that have beards)...still their right but odd.we want people to present in a way we are used to, even a a manly man dresses in women's clothes, we would hope they shave, makeup etc...

The best part of this was the people at your table were talking about it, somewhat accepting and were not disgusted , we have come a longer way then we think sometimes...

[Lucy23]

Acastina, yes it was very heartening that they all seemed to think that a guy presenting as a woman was acceptable, but it was more than a circus freak they felt it was mocking.

Lucy, I could not ask directly as that could have raised suspicions, but one comment which gained general agreement was that a beard and moustache are something only a male can have so why bother to present with a red dress and such a uniquely male face, if not to mock?

Jennifer, could not have put it better myself.

I believe that CD/Trans people are well down the road to more acceptance, I do think that we have a responsibility to assist ordinary people to accept us as normal, going out as a half male half female in my opinion is not helping, as it can encourage people to think freak!!
Becky, I agree that a combination of a red dress and a beard is something that is hard not to take notice of, and could be described as a circus freak. A bearded woman in a circus is trope, after all. Maybe as was pointed out that had he worn a more subtle or unisex clothing he wouldn't have garnered much attention.

Still, I just can't wrap my head around as to his supposed intentions to mock the community. Did he wear obviously fake breasts or at least trying to emulate a female figure? Did he make any obvious or exaggerated feminine gestures? That would, at least for me, be a sign that he was making a mockery of the community. You see, you say that a moustache or a beard for that matter is male trait and many men, myself included, are proud of it (I maintain stubble); I guess the same can be said about women and breasts for example. But I think a red dress is something only associated with women, not their trait in the way breasts are. See where I'm going with this? There I cannot agree with the half-male half-female address.

And of course that I agree that we have the responsibility to present in a certain way. And although I must admit that I love wearing bras (still figuring out why) but at the same time I have no intention to either pass or present as a woman. Trying to pass is one of those ways to help understand us, but that wouldn't do much for me.

You see, I love wearing women's clothes, but that's where it ends. For me it would be more in the way of wearing as respectable clothing as I can, as in a business dress with heels to work, or if I opt for a miniskirt I would wear ballet flats and not heels.

[Becky Blue]

Still, I just can't wrap my head around as to his supposed intentions to mock the community. Did he wear obviously fake breasts or at least trying to emulate a female figure? Did he make any obvious or exaggerated feminine gestures?

Lucy, I am reporting what 5 middle aged intelligent reasonably open minded people who have no known exposure to our community discussed. I think they felt it was more disrespectful to woman than the Trans community. Perhaps the women felt that if he wanted to wear 'their clothes' then perhaps he shouldn't have such obvious male face signage. He was not doing anything obvious, but besides the dress he had on plain black woman's flats and a small over the shoulder woman's handbag too.

To reiterate no one said he didn't have to right to dress anyway he wanted to, but in the same vein people have the right to think eww not a good look.

Lucy question for you.. do you go out dressed?

[Krisi]

I never understood the "man in a dress" thing but several members here do it so it's not unique. I do think the general public associates this behavior with being some sort of a pervert even if it's not true. I'm not defending them, just telling it like it is.

I remember a post on this forum a few years back. It was titled something like "I think I scarred him for life". The poster had put on a skirt and gone to a fast food restaurant, stood in like and when he got to the counter where a young teenage boy was working, he started a conversation about his skirt and asked the boy if he wanted to see what was under the skirt.

The poster seemed proud of what he did, proud enough to brag about it on this forum. To me, that's the definition of a pervert and a good reason for the public to think a man in a dress or skirt must be one.

For those members who do the man in in a dress thing, I'm not trying to insult you, just relating a real incident.

[HelenR2]

A few years ago I would have thought 'A dress..... and a beard? No way buster'.
Now I would more likely think 'That dress.... with those shoes? No way buster'.

[Beverley Sims]

Becky,
I am with you on this, let others be if they want to present that way.

I would not associate with them as I prefer to dress to conform with a womans style of dress.

Beard and bald head is for others. I would interact with them but I am unlikely to join their social group.

[docrobbysherry]

I get this BS constantly! That I'm NOT a good representative of the "community"! :Angry3:

I get it quite often from T's because I wear a mask.

I get it from maskers because I'm not into masking, rubber, or exaggerated fem looks.

I get it from vanillas because I can't pass.

But, I've never said I represent anyone but myself! Why would anyone say someone they don't know is a bad representative when they know nothing about that person?

Do u think every fat, sloppy, rude vanilla person u meet is a "bad representative" of their community? Of course not! Because they never claim to be one!:Angry3:

So, why assume every person that isn't a vanilla, but maybe a bit different from u, is trying to represent their community? It smacks of discrimination to me! Why can't u simply say u DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY LOOK!? And, let it go at that?:straightface:

I could live with that!:brolleyes:

[Krisi]

It may not be fair, but we do represent our group. If someone sees a crossdresser, they attribute their behavior to all of us. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You can say you don't represent a group but in stranger's minds you do. You can't change that.

[IamWren]

Over in the TG/non-binary board there was a thread about presentation and someone had mentioned these two folks who are supposedly well known in non-binary circles.
Jacob Tobia (http://www.mtv.com/news/2428003/genderqueer-transition-trans-awareness/)
Elliot Alexander (http://houseofalexzander.com/)

The photos of Jacob, especially with his stubble, leg hair and quite masculine facial features looks like what I imagine the person Becky and her friends saw. It certainly goes against typical social norms and conventions. It's a brave new world in gender bending and presentation. There really is no way to know if the bearded person in red was deliberately trying to mock transgender folks or not without having a conversation with him/her/them.

[Christina D]

Christina, there is a huge difference between someone trying to pass and perhaps not succeeding and wearing a dress with a beard and moustache. I think the person we saw had very clear intentions.

Oh for sure, I don't doubt at all that he/she/they have and know their intentions. The point I was trying to make is that OTHERS are likely to assume what those intentions are without knowing that person at all.

It seems to me that there's an irony to how gender is being reevaluated by our society right now. Until recently, only a minority of people could accept and understand the concept of anything outside of binary genders; men were men and women were women with clear social expectations, norms, etc. These days, although there's still a lot of progress to be made, more members of our society are willing to accept LGBTQ identities, but the irony is that for many of them to accept it, there's still boundaries or criteria to be met. So, in short, there's more acceptance, but that acceptance still comes with expectations.

In other words (and yes, I know I'm assuming a lot here), these friends and others like them expect that a MTF crossdresser should be meeting these new standards. Like, "Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it."

[IamWren]

In other words (and yes, I know I'm assuming a lot here), these friends and others like them expect that a MTF crossdresser should be meeting these new standards. Like, "Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it."

It's coincidental you say that Christina because in that TG/non-binary thread I mentioned I gave this comment.


..... I don't like the look they're presenting personally. I think there is a fine line between presenting genderqueer or androgynous and looking like a beginner CDer or drag queen who doesn't have the good sense to put on a wig, wear forms/padding or shave your legs. I don't like those looks at all.
I still stand by that statement. I don't like that look but perhaps, like much of society, I still have some personal growth to achieve.

[Abbey11]

What about conchita wurst, she obviously puts some effort into her look and she has a beard

[Christina D]

I still stand by that statement. I don't like that look but perhaps, like much of society, I still have some personal growth to achieve.

Yeah, I hear you Sue. As much as I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, I don't care for that look either. I know I would never feel comfortable doing it myself. I want to look like as much of a GG as possible, even it's a 10 minute trip to the grocery store.

However, I know that that's just me. Who am I or anyone else--be they cis, trans, agender, genderfluid, whatever--to say "Hey, you're presenting your gender identity wrong!"

[IamWren]

well here's the rub, fly in the ointment or you're saying of choice that speaks to that last question about who are we to say you're doing it wrong. I think transpersons have the most skin in the game.

With transgender folks getting more attention in the past couple of years than ever before, many every day Joe's and Jane's will most likely equate genderqueers, CDers, non-binary folks, gender nonconformists and the like as being transsexual persons. So by association we (CDers, non-binary, genderqueers) ARE representatives of transsexuals whether we like it or not or don't want to believe it. Our actions and presentations effect how society in general view and react to transsexual persons which has very real personally affecting outcomes (i.e public policy, violence, discrimination, etc)

I don't know if I'm getting my point across very well. I guess what I'm trying to say is the general public is for the most part ignorant of transgender issues and gender spectrum and most of what they know comes from discussions that came about when Caitlyn Jenner got her notoriety.

[Christina D]

Your point is very well taken, Sue. Referring to your last point in particular, I'm reminded of something my mother said just a couple of weeks ago. Please don't hate my mother for this or assume this is how I think:

"I mean, if someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner walked into a bathroom with me, I'd be fine with that. I probably wouldn't even notice she's not a woman. But if someone like Mike (my mom's boyfriend, who's a very "manly man" with a rugged beard, wears heavy boots, is very muscular, etc.) walked in wearing a Cher wig and claimed to be a woman, I would be very uncomfortable."

[Lucy23]

Lucy, I am reporting what 5 middle aged intelligent reasonably open minded people who have no known exposure to our community discussed. I think they felt it was more disrespectful to woman than the Trans community. Perhaps the women felt that if he wanted to wear 'their clothes' then perhaps he shouldn't have such obvious male face signage. He was not doing anything obvious, but besides the dress he had on plain black woman's flats and a small over the shoulder woman's handbag too.

Lucy question for you.. do you go out dressed?
I guess there are too many unknowns to be sure.

To answer your question, no, I don't go out dressed. Probably because what Krisi later mentioned about how a man in a dress could be seen and the incident in a fast food restaurant (not that I would do the same), and what Sue posted about Jacob Tobia.

I realize that going out like Jacob (minus the make-up for me, but the style in the article is similar to mine) would be far too over the line where I live and would not only garner really bad public reactions, I would risk much more (and I'm not talking about a fight, that I can handle). To make a pun on Sue's wordplay, it would be more of a "brave new planet". Not to mention Conchita Wurst; if she is anything to go by, many people here would not be accepting of a man dressed like that; if he is making some sort of fun, that might a different story.

However, I think being out completely en femme would be more acceptable. But then what should I do if I'm not really into wigs and make-up, giving up time to learn the skill least of all? Try it in spite of that and see where it leads me?

I guess I'm in the minority with this; but I am interested in learning this - could you please elaborate on why do you think looking more like a woman would be the way to go? Or, as in what Christina said, Well, if you're going to crossdress/be trans/whatever, at least do it right. Put some effort into it.

[Jenniferathome]

Lucy, regarding the "looking more like a woman" as the way to go, I'll refer back to my original respond to this thread. It's about shock value. A man wearing women's clothes but bearded and clearly presenting male is MORE shocking to the general public than a man dressed in women's clothes presenting female. BOTH are weird to the general public but one is more weird based on expectations with which we have all grown up.

[MelanieAnne]

A man wearing a red dress and flats, with a beard and no makeup is either mocking crossdressers and trans people, or trying to provoke a reaction from observers, or both. And I don't need to have a conversation with them to figure it out. And someone doing that does us no favors.


With transgender folks getting more attention in the past couple of years than ever before, many every day Joe's and Jane's will most likely equate genderqueers, CDers, non-binary folks, gender nonconformists and the like as being transsexual persons.

That's a good point. With all the media attention to gender issues and the LGBT crowd, this likely could be blowback from Joe Sixpack, who is tired of hearing about it.

[Krisi]

Lucy, regarding the "looking more like a woman" as the way to go, I'll refer back to my original respond to this thread. It's about shock value. A man wearing women's clothes but neared and clearly presenting male is MORE shocking to the general public than a man dressed in women's clothes presenting female. BOTH are weird to the general public but one is more weird based on expectations with which we have all grown up.

I assume that was supposed to be "bearded".

I think that's exactly why a man would go out in public in women's clothing but clearly as a man, with possibly a beard and bald head: shock value. To call attention to himself and to shock other people. It's a way to attract attention to yourself. Sometimes we get tired of being just a face in the crowd and want to be noticed.

[Jenniferathome]

Yes, "bearded" but no, not only for shock value. This person may simply like wearing women's clothes. In other words, a cross dresser! There are several members here who do not present as female but wear women's clothing because they like it. And contrary to a statement above, they are not mocking anyone.

My point about shock value is that it is simply MORE shocking to the viewer to see something that is most different from expectation.

[Pat]

So I'm the only one who has ever seen a bald guy in a dress and thought, "Wow. He looks great!"? I'll never get the hang of life....:brolleyes:

[Dana44]

Indeed, we should be dressed and presenting as a woman when fully dressed. I use makeup and bling also. I have seen men in skirts and people do look at them and don't say anything. So men in skirts are okay. But wearing a dress is a whole different affair. One should look like a woman.

[Acastina]

Your point is very well taken, Sue. Referring to your last point in particular, I'm reminded of something my mother said just a couple of weeks ago. Please don't hate my mother for this or assume this is how I think:

"I mean, if someone who looked like Caitlyn Jenner walked into a bathroom with me, I'd be fine with that. I probably wouldn't even notice she's not a woman. But if someone like Mike (my mom's boyfriend, who's a very "manly man" with a rugged beard, wears heavy boots, is very muscular, etc.) walked in wearing a Cher wig and claimed to be a woman, I would be very uncomfortable."

Nothing at all wrong with your mom's point. The whole point of the bathroom issue is gender expression, that, regardless of natal sex assignment, XX or XY chromosomes, or whatever other binary markers might exist, one or the other of the binary genders is being expressed and should be respected, all else being equal (i.e., well-behaved, sober, and so on). If Mike just puts on an ill-fitting, cheap Cher wig and views that as a sufficient expression of female gender to gain access to the ladies' loo, I've got a problem with that as well, because it's predatory, or at least voyeuristic (not that there's a lot to see in the stall farm), and that's what tweaks the intolerant into overreacting with nonsense like North Carolina's odious and ignorant law.

It is when one's presentation may well be readable, but one's intentions are simply to use the toilet like any other civilized person when out presenting as a woman, that the protections built into "gender expression" come into play. That is, if we only have two choices, and the individual in question is (as you said in another post here) making an effort (however short of convincing) at a sincere "presentation" of gender, it flies in the face of everything we know about gender variance to rigidly insist that an XY person always use the "men's" room.

Mike in a bad wig and nothing more is a man in a lousy costume messing with everyone else and reinforcing the worst fears of the anti crowd. An example from my experience may illustrate my point: I played in a band for a year, and we had a Halloween gig. The promoters of the dance advance-requested "Little Red Riding Hood", so our band leader suggested I wear a Little Red Riding Hood costume. Of course I didn't put up much of a fight over it. :battingeyelashes: And not a cheap Halloween-store stereotype. A long black skirt, black-and-white peasant blouse, white stockings, black patent scrunch flats, full makeup, my topper hairpiece blended into my own long hair, and a red cape that my wife rented from a quality costume shop. We set up, I changed in an unused utility room, and when I had to use the toilet, I used the men's room. I was a guy in a girl's costume in that context, not a transgender person sincerely presenting as female without a costuming purpose. I never thought twice about which facility to use. I've seen my wife's photos from that night, and, in any other circumstance, my presentation was more than passable enough, but I was conscious of the context and behaved accordingly.

Funny thing was, when we took a break and the guys all went outside to cool off (a couple overweight and one of them in a very hot Mad Hatter costume), I sat with the wives inside and put my aching feet up. One of them (we're all in our sixties) wanted to feel my leg and commented that I had boobs. I replied that padding is easy to do. I was a little taken by how natural it felt for me to hang with the gals during the break when the rest of the all-male band was elsewhere. Go figure. I was also kind of serene on stage by comparison to my usual slightly edgy performer's persona. It felt better.

Then, when the show was over, you'd think I'd take off the costume and change back for the teardown work. Not on your life! Broke it down, packed it up, drove 45 miles home, and dropped some gear by the leader's place, still blissfully Li'l Hood.:o

[Peggie Lee]

A man in any clothes that deviate from the norm will draw attention. I stated wearing kilts at 11(being part Scottish) and it never failed to draw comments and looks, so the occasional "mommy there's a man in a dress" no longer bothered me as I grew up. After Transition wearing dresses and skirts was almost second nature.

[mona lisa]

Indeed, we should be dressed and presenting as a woman when fully dressed. I use makeup and bling also. I have seen men in skirts and people do look at them and don't say anything. So men in skirts are okay. But wearing a dress is a whole different affair. One should look like a woman.

I agree.

[AllieSF]

I agree.

I disagree! We should be able to wear what we like when out. No, I don't like everything I see and probably would not associate much with those whose presentation I do not like. However, I will never say that someone "should" or "should not" wear something. That is a type of discrimination, which I do not like. What about those that say that men "should" not wear women's clothes? Dana, will that make you stop wearing them and going out in them, if you do go out?

I think that the point of this thread is that as an observer to a conversation about a crossdresser (or other label on the TG umbrella spectrum), the OP saw a fairly logical and accepting range of comments and observations that were not pitchforks and torches, which is about how I expect most people out in the real world to deal with sightings of us in all our varied shapes, forms and looks. I appreciate that type of conversation because it leads to discussion, learning and hopefully more tolerations and acceptance in the future.

[Becky Blue]

Yes but Allie, those people did not think it was appropriate to have neatly trimmed facial hair and a dress and although I am somewhat biased of course, I could not fault their argument.

In MY opinion I don't think that every time a CD or a trans person goes out in public they have to be perfectly presented, I have no issue with someone that is out in an andro look, or no makeup etc... but I think that going out in a red dress with facial hair is not a great look for our community.

Jennie... pity you did not see him, I very much doubt you would have thought he looks great.
Jennifer, yes agreed its for shock value most likely, but what is to be gained by shocking people that way? does it advance the cause of Transgender? does it make people more accepting? Not saying he doesn't have the right to do what he wants, but just because he has the right doesn't make it right.

[Jenniferathome]

Becky, you misread my message. I was countering Krisi's assertion that one only does that for shock value. While it IS shocking to the general public, there is another reason a person might dress like that: they like wearing women's clothes. Their intent can be totally innocuous and still shock the normals.

MY preference is presenting fully as a "normal" woman. When a cross dresser does not choose that option who am I to suggest it is "wrong"? Does it help/hurt the cause? Who knows. Do I help/hurt the cause being out? Who knows.

[Becky Blue]

Sorry Jennifer I misunderstood

My view was that 5 normal reasonably intelligent middle aged people felt that a male dressing and presenting as a woman was perfectly ok, but that a guy in a dress with well maintained facial hair was not OK and thats why he was not advancing our cause.

I have interacted with quite a few GG's over the course of my outings and I found most woman to be very welcoming, almost as if I was complimenting their gender by wanting to be them and the fact that I was making an effort to blend in seemed appreciated.

[Jenniferathome]

The least shocking of two or ten or one hundred things is usually the most acceptable thing for the public at large. Intelligent or otherwise.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Becky:hugs:, Some things and some people will never change...:daydreaming:...

[Krisi]

We should be able to wear what we like when out. .

Well, you can wear anything you want to when out (as long as it's legal). But, you have to accept the consequences. There are no laws saying people cannot laugh and point. And if you do this in front of people you know, it will have a negative affect on your relationships and career.

The excuse of a man just liking to wear dresses is pretty lame.

[SarahleeNH]

I'm with you, AllieSF. I identify most closely with non-binary. I have worn a full beard for nearly 50 years. I fully understand how jarring it would be if I were to go out in a dress. Certainly, it would not be received well by anyone in either rest room. Still, I see changes to social norms occurring everyday, and asTS's become more commonplace, acceptance of non-binary will not be far behind. I appreciate the courage of the Trans community, and recognize the huge difficulties being faced. Having come to terms with my own struggles have been, in many ways, less difficult. I get to just be myself, and I don't have to make a binary life altering choice. My beard stays, my feelings are simply allowed to be more broad, and the beard stays on. The only concession is that although I can largely shop in the women's side of the store, my outer clothing is restricted somewhat to more closely reflect the allowed uniform socially dictated by current norms. I am sad to read so many in our broader community are so critical of how many of us present themselves, feeling that it presents our community in a bad light. I think recognizing diversity in our social fabric makes us all stronger, and what would be most jarring would be the recognition of how many of us there are along this spectrum! I done blame anyone who feels differently about this. I understand the points reflected in many of the posts. But still, it's sad...

[Krisi]

At some point, this subject brings up the restroom question. Most of us here agree that when presenting as a woman we should use the women's restroom if a single unisex or family restroom is not available. And of course, when we are presenting as our male selves, we use the men's restroom.

What if we are "presenting" as some combination of man and woman? Female clothing, boobs, etc., but no attempt to feminize the face or hair?

It would seem obvious to me that one shouldn't use the women's restroom in this case, but there might be an unpleasant reaction from other men in the men's restroom.

If you go out as a "man in a dress", which do you use and why?

[Christina D]

Well, you can wear anything you want to when out (as long as it's legal). But, you have to accept the consequences. There are no laws saying people cannot laugh and point. And if you do this in front of people you know, it will have a negative affect on your relationships and career.

The excuse of a man just liking to wear dresses is pretty lame.

I'm sorry, but I cannot abide this defeatist mindset, whether it's applied to LQBTQ issues or any other situation in which the dominant/mainstream culture is granted the privilege to dismiss or ridicule a subordinate/counterculture.

This defeatist attitude hits me particularly hard because as a child, long before I'd even touched clothes made for girls, I was teased and bullied constantly for wanting to play with girls rather than rough housing with the boys. When I told my teachers and parents about it, they all told me the same thing, "Well, if you're going to act like that, of course the boys are going to make fun of you."

Why should anyone have to feel shame or feel the need to hide themselves away because others can't accept them, or at the very least mind their own business? If you ask me, someone not being able to accept "a man in a dress" isn't the fault or shortcoming in the man, it's in the "someone."

[Jenniferathome]

...If you go out as a "man in a dress", which do you use and why?

It's simple. A man, presenting as a man, uses the men's room. His CLOTHES, do not define him.

[Krisi]

I'm sorry, but I cannot abide this defeatist mindset, whether it's applied to LQBTQ issues or any other situation in which the dominant/mainstream culture is granted the privilege to dismiss or ridicule a subordinate/counterculture.

This defeatist attitude hits me particularly hard because as a child, long before I'd even touched clothes made for girls, I was teased and bullied constantly for wanting to play with girls rather than rough housing with the boys. When I told my teachers and parents about it, they all told me the same thing, "Well, if you're going to act like that, of course the boys are going to make fun of you."

Why should anyone have to feel shame or feel the need to hide themselves away because others can't accept them, or at the very least mind their own business? If you ask me, someone not being able to accept "a man in a dress" isn't the fault or shortcoming in the man, it's in the "someone."

You don't get out much, do you?

There are many things that some of us feel are "not right" but that feeling doesn't change how things actually are. Reality can be a bitch, but we have to deal with it or hide ourselves in our rooms and play on our computers.

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It's simple. A man, presenting as a man, uses the men's room. His CLOTHES, do not define him.

That would be my thought as well but walking into a men's restroom wearing a dress and especially wearing boobs could be a cause of trouble.

Taking this a bit further, suppose a man is trying to present as a woman but is hopelessly "impassable"? Which restroom does he use? Where is the line drawn?

[Christina D]

You don't get out much, do you?

There are many things that some of us feel are "not right" but that feeling doesn't change how things actually are. Reality can be a bitch, but we have to deal with it or hide ourselves in our rooms and play on our computers.

Wow, well that wasn't judgmental at all.

I don't know exactly what you meant by getting out, but if you're referring literally to being in public en femme, I have done so a few times, once a week on average. So if you're suggesting that I don't practice what I preach, then you're wrong there. If you meant it as in me being naive to the world, I guess I don't really have a defense to that, but I still disagree on what I suspect your true point is.

You say that we can't change how things actually are and that we only have two choices, deal with it or hide? That's just sad. Why can't and why shouldn't we try to change our society? Why should anyone have to "deal with" not having rights, being second class citizens, and/or face ridicule for who they are?

All those suffregettes in the early 20th century should have just kept quiet and stayed in their homes where women belong; it's not like our culture would ever accept a woman's right to vote, right? When African-Americans were systematically denied the right to vote during the Jim Crowe era, they should have just accepted it, right? What a waste of time it was to have same-sex marriage legalized in 2015; gay couples should have just dealt with not being able to be married, right?

Maybe you think I'm idealistic, but I'd rather be idealistic than bitter and hopeless.

[AllieSF]

Yes but Allie, those people did not think it was appropriate to have neatly trimmed facial hair and a dress and although I am somewhat biased of course, I could not fault their argument.

In MY opinion I don't think that every time a CD or a trans person goes out in public they have to be perfectly presented, I have no issue with someone that is out in an andro look, or no makeup etc... but I think that going out in a red dress with facial hair is not a great look for our community.

Becky,

My point is that who has the right to make that decision of what is acceptable and what is not? You say red dress, someone else says you have to wear nylons, someone else says pink, and so on. We are not police, we do not set rules, each of us just tries to live and succeed in life as best possible. So, if the consensus was that you did not look good enough, no matter how hard you tried, to go out, would you then stay home because of their opinions and decision? If I do not like someone's presentation it is my issue. I may deal with my issue by not associating with that person, or by doing or not doing something else. But, my issue should not prevent that other person from their right to do what they want as long as it is legal.

Our community is small compared to a lot of other ones under the LGBT umbrella. However, it is big enough to be able to withstand someone's disapproval of how some present and act. Also, our community includes a lot of varied interests in what someone wears and likes to present as. Do we need to limit membership in our community to only those that meet some arbitrary rules made by whomever has the loudest voice and can get the most agreement, or do we let freedom and liberty reign and let the people with issues with some members deal maturely and professionally with their own issues and leave the others alone to move along with their life? Do we want to be inclusive or exclusive? Another thing to consider is how common is what you dislike, a man with a beard wearing a dress, a red dress? I believe that it is extremely rare, so why even make any issue about it and why try to exclude them if that is what they want to do? Why not applaud them for their courage to live their own life as they see fit? How about the 350 pound football player who will always look like a 350 man, no matter what he wears and no matter how much professional help he gets? Should he stay home because he is a bad representative of our community? My remedy is quite simple and it is one all of us use in some way or another during our lifetimes, just ignore it and get on with our other more important things. If we want to give someone the right to control it, someone else will give someone else the right to control us!

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Well, you can wear anything you want to when out (as long as it's legal). But, you have to accept the consequences. There are no laws saying people cannot laugh and point. And if you do this in front of people you know, it will have a negative affect on your relationships and career.

The excuse of a man just liking to wear dresses is pretty lame.

Krisi,

Do you think that I do not realize that we have to deal with the consequences of our own decisions and actions? We are not idiots here. This is not about "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". It is about our freedom and rights to be who we are, which also includes to legally dress and present as we want.

Please explain what you mean by your last sentence? You readily admit that you are a man who likes to and does wear dresses and other female clothing and who occasionally goes out into the real world. Are you referencing your own reasons for doing that as lame? Please clarify. Obviously, the man in the red dress who was the subject of the conversation that the OP was party to was doing exactly what you do. He just has different tastes than you do. All the rest is just opinions of why that person did what he did. We will never know why unless he tells us. The rest is just useless guessing.

[Becky Blue]

Allie, I have to disagree with you, society decides what is acceptable. In today's world, society has just started accepting people dressing as the other gender. As we all know there are still countries and many people who have yet to accept transgendered people never mind CDs.

I am not saying that he was 'wrong' because of the red dress, he would have been just as 'wrong' in a green woman's top with skinny jeans. Nor am I saying that he did not have the right to wear whatever he wanted. I am however saying that in MY opinion a man with a beard and a red dress out in public is not advancing the cause.

I saw the whole thing as a huge positive, 5 pretty 'normal' middle aged intelligent people all agreed that there was nothing wrong with a guy out dressed as a woman, the issue they had was the facial hair, which everyone would agree is a very very male signal.

Your example of the 350 lbs footballer is not the same... if they are dressed as best as they can and go out as a woman, great on her. the fact that she looks like a 350lbs footballer is irrelevant, you can't help being big and strong and wanting to dress like a woman. But the guy we are talking about was wearing (by choice I may add) a VERY male facial sign.. something that firstly a woman can't do and secondly something he grew and groomed by choice, he then chose to out on the red dress. I hope you can see the difference?

No one is saying he should be banned from what he did, but I am saying it is not good for our community and for acceptance in the general world.

[AllieSF]

So Becky, you are saying to all our "man in a dress" members here, with or without a beard and no wig, that they are wrong if they go out in public and are giving some of you, definitely not me, a bad name. The footballer is just the same, he carries with him all the very obvious male traits, shape, size, voice and the way she walks, the man with the beard is only different because of the beard and maybe no wig. That 350 pounder gives off all the very strong male signals and there is nothing wrong with either, and both should be treated the same.

Society has not yet given all of us trans people a green light to be us. People do not have to follow society's norms and keep their real self hidden away and with whatever negative consequences that may result just because some in society do not like to see a man with a beard in a red dress. I am guessing that you want society to accept you when you go out. Well that is just what you are not doing to our man in the red dress. We all need to respect and support the rights of others, and not just us because we shave our beard. Everyone. He was not "wrong" (parentheses are yours), you are. You have to be fair to all, passable, completely dressed, conservative or not. When we start making exceptions, we are the ones at fault, and we start to hinder our own needed and desired progress.

As I have already said, the situation described is the exception when compared to everyone else that goes out (except maybe those who go out in clubbing outfits and have to ride public transit to get where they are going!), and the impact of what people think about him is miniscule when compared to just having him or them out there and getting people to talk about him/her and us. I agree that the conversation about him was hugely positive and good for the long term, and probably would never had happened if he was there with a shaved beard. Maybe no one would have ever noticed him in the first place.

I get that you do not like the look. I am not a fan of it either. However, I will defend people like that whenever I can.

[Becky Blue]

Allie, firstly my OP was reporting what I saw the the opinion of 3 GG's and 2 guys none of whom have any known exposure to our community. My comments resulted from their comments. i found it refreshingly positive that all 5 (plus me of course) felt there was nothing wrong with a man being out dressed as a woman whether that man be CD or TS. The other 5 all felt uncomfortable with the beard and dress.

I do not agree that it is the same as the 350 lbs footballer, who has little choice in how big they are. The person I saw could have shaved off their beard and moustache in under 5 minutes. being 350 lbs is rarely a life choice. Growing facial hair is most definitely a choice. My friends would probably have felt a touch of empathy if they saw the obviously male looking 350 lbs trying to look as female as possible, I know i would have. Having well maintained facial hair in a dress is a clear signal of non conformance and in MY opinion is not a positive for our community.

Perhaps this will make my point better. People have the right to go out dressed as cavemen or with bright pink spiked hair or in a sheet or in a bear costume. Society says you are not 'normal' but thats your right. I would put a bearded crossdresser in that category. MY point is that Trans people are fighting for rights and acceptance and I do not feel a bearded CD is a positive in that fight.

What that person does in their own home is entirely up to them, but when a guy is out in public in a dress, he is seen as part of our community. Perhaps the guy in the bear outfit is representing bears badly too, but that's their problem.

[Tracii G]

I hope every one realizes there is no right or wrong answer only preferences.
You can't tell the bearded man how to dress and he can't tell you either.
I catch flak from people here that are all or nothing dressers that accuse me of making Cders look bad because I do dress in clothes for women with my guy face and hair.
I don't wear skirts and dresses in guy mode and wear tons of make up so there is a difference in what I do when I am in 50/50 mode.
You may not like what the bearded man does but then again you are the ones that seem to say you go girl to CDers that dress like hookers and go out in public.

[Becky Blue]

Firstly Tracii, speaking for myself, I would not be encouraging people to go out looking like hookers either. Secondly I am not telling him how to dress, we are discussing our thoughts and feelings in a forum. Thirdly there is a big difference between 50/50 dressing and having well groomed facial hair. Lots of GG's go out with no makeup, short hair, baggy clothes... who says we have to look all dolled up everytime if we don't want to.

I feel that you and Allie are missing my point, a beard is a very strong sign of masculinity. Being 350lbs is not nor is presenting 'undolled up'.

[IamWren]

I have to disagree with those who say that there is no right or wrong way to present in public.

I truly believe there IS a right or wrong way to go about being a crossdresser out in public because going out in public isn’t done in a vacuum and it has an effect on public opinion about transsexual persons. That public opinion manifests in public policy, discrimination, ridicule and violence targeted at transsexual persons. If you’re a crossdresser going out in public, there has to be some onus you assume toward the transsexual community. In not doing so, you are doing a disservice and are contributing to the disdain the general public has toward transsexual persons. The shock value is not helping the cause toward acceptance or tolerance.

Unless you're like Jacob Tobia and Elliot Alexander (who I mentioned in my post #24) and have a platform where you're educating hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people about why you wear women's clothing and maintain a very masculine feature like a beard, I think you're hurting any step forward to acceptance/tolerance toward transsexual persons.

Did the person Becky saw have the kind of clout that Jacob and Elliot have? I don't know. None of us will know. And neither does the general public. With that in mind, I think shock and awe tactics of trying to educate society about crossdressing and non-binary folk and gender as a spectrum is not an efficient, pragmatic way of doing it.

[Jenniferathome]

Sue, that's fine line to draw. "... Unless you re like..." is a qualification that just doesn't hold up. Firstly, I have no idea who these people are. If they are part of a cause, I don't know it. Secondly, with your statement above, you have defined who can wear women's clothing. That is no different than the normals defining who can (and can not) wear women's clothing. Why would someone present as a woman if they do not want to present as a woman?

Clothes are, in fact, just clothes. Cross dressing, for most of us, is more than just clothes. But for some, they are just clothes.

[windshear]

Sue's argument is one of public perception and its social consequences on the CD/TG community.
Jennifer's argument is one of personal freedom and our ability as individuals to reject social standards.

Neither is really addressing the either. Spoiler: I'm an individualist...

I would argue to Sue that the individual does not exist for the community but rather, that the "community" exists for the individual. As Jennifer hinted, if we (as a community that defies social norms) do not defend individuals within for doing so, it will fall apart.

I do not see the potential for social backlash simply because someone with a beard goes en femme, any more than without, aside from isolated incidents. The more worrisome, systemic backlash comes from pushing social agendas down the throats of others- this community itself is a form of backlash. This is why I don't support social-oriented laws one way or the other, because all that does is breed resent.

There's a valid practical problem at play that Sue is bringing up where the masculine and feminine clash in a particular way. Feminine clothing didn't end up where it did by accident, it was all meant to compliment and enhance the female body image. The beard may be physically compatible, but is generally visually incompatible by design, and that contrasting image could be used or held up as a misrepresentation of the community. To which I say, the community can take it. It already rejects social dogma.

[SarahleeNH]

I see both sides, but agree with Windsheer. If we look at the Bathroom bill as an example, people were suddenly upset that men presenting as women might possibly use a women's bathroom facility. The fact is, that has been the case for as long as there have been separate facilities. But no one noticed. If only those crossdressers who can pass scrutiny are allowed in public by our 'community', no one would notice that there are men wearing women's clothes in public! How does that move the community forward? A bearded man in a dress is a jarring visual, to be sure. But it's not as if we are suggesting that they are also committing illegal or lascivious acts. Put me down for individualist. Although I'm afraid I don't have the courage to be that bearded man in a dress at the mall.

[Becky Blue]

I have to disagree with you Sarahlee. There is a huge difference between passing and looking as good as possible. Over the years on many outings I have chatted with many GG's, it is not passing that impresses them it is the effort we have gone to to look as good and as feminine as we can. Whether its that 350lbs footballer or a 5'6" skinny guy we are being judged on effort which equates to respect. One could argue that going out in a red dress with facial hair is disrespectful to women.

[windshear]

One could argue that going out in a red dress with facial hair is disrespectful to women.

Lets look at this one, shall we?


dis·re·spect·ful
adjective
showing a lack of respect or courtesy; impolite.

to clarify respect:


re·spect
noun
a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

A quote most of us know:


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Now, assuming this is imitation or mimicry and not mockery, which is dependent entirely on their motives, I don't think this holds water.

[Becky Blue]

Windshear are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

One could argue that a beard and moustache is the most male signal one can have, so putting on that red dress with a male haircut and male facial hair is most definitely not imitation of women, therefore is not flattery therefore could be disrespectful.

[Stephanie47]

Yesterday my wife and I went to the local mall. We found a bench and licked some ice cream cones from Baskin-Robbins. While we were sitting there we counted no less than twenty-six cross dressers. How did we know? Who else goes to the mall on a Tuesday afternoon wearing a dress, hosiery, heels and makeup? No GG would be caught dead wearing clothes like that except for Sunday church. Must have been a cross dressing convention in town I did not know about. :)

I had to put the smiley face there so people would not take me serious. Or may .....

My wife and I drifted into DADT or rather dropped into it like a rock when she discovered my three year old daughter holding my vivid red Vanity Fair bra she had pulled from my armoire draw. I think my wife had bought into the possibility that I truly love the feel of nylon. Hence my desire to sometimes sleep in a floor length nylon gown or slip. But, a bra? Her retort "Why would a man want to wear a bra when he has nothing to pack into it?" Good question?

I think the vast majority of men and women, especially women, seeing a man wearing female clothes expects the cross dresser to make some attempt to emulate a woman. No? I do wear a bra when presenting as a woman. I have more bras than my wife. I don't wear butt or hip padding. Obviously, there are many people who believe cross dressers are perverts or crazy or whatever.

So, was the man with the red dress on with women's shoes trying to emulate a woman? Or does he just like to wear women's clothing? I think a distinction may be made.

[windshear]

Becky Blue,

I would say that it is imitation with individual flare. It certainly isn't my cup of tea, but I don't buy that it is disrespectful unless the motive was to mock women, which I doubt.

[Becky Blue]

Stephanie, I don't think that is the point of my OP. The point was that a lot of people saw him and I reported what 5 pretty well educated 'normal' middle aged people discussed. Clearly he was not emulating women, he was a guy in a dress. The distinction is only relevant to him and his close family and friends. I would bet that if the 5 people with me felt slightly uncomfortable with what they saw many of the other people that saw him would have felt the same. To reiterate no one said he didn't have the right to or should not have, but that doesn't mean people had to like it, nor was it a good look for our community in my opinion.

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Becky Blue,

I would say that it is imitation with individual flare. It certainly isn't my cup of tea, but I don't buy that it is disrespectful unless the motive was to mock women, which I doubt.

Windshear, you may not buy it thats your right, but 3 women and 2 guys that I was with certainly felt it was disrespectful to women and the trans community.

[Krisi]

So after all the bickering and snarkiness, did anyone change anyone's mind? Did we all agree on something?

I've lost track of the original question. Some people have asked me questions but not because they want to know the answers but because they want to continue to argue their opinion. Nobody ever wins an Internet argument so I'll be moving on.

[DIANEF]

Yesterday my wife and I went to the local mall.While we were sitting there we counted no less than twenty-six cross dressers. How did we know? Who else goes to the mall on a Tuesday afternoon wearing a dress, hosiery, heels and makeup? No GG would be caught dead wearing clothes like that except for Sunday church..

You're not serious? A previous thread about spotting CDs saw people stating they saw, maybe two or three in a year, or less, and you saw 26 in one afternoon??
Could it be that many, maybe most were in fact GGs and the style of dress you described is more popular than you think. In my local city center at least a third of women wear hose and skirts-dresses and many of them have heels of greater or lesser height. Some of those you saw didn't have facial hair did they?

[SarahleeNH]

I respect your opunion, truly. But my issue is that I'm not trying to look like or pass as a woman. For me, I like the feminine expression. Can a 350 lb footballer look feminine? Should she lose 200 lbs before putting on those Sketchers tights? Is she just not trying and therefore being disrespectful? You see, I feel I have a dual nature that moves along a spectrum for some reason (a mystery to me). And I have worn this full beard, uninterrupted, for over 40 years! I won't go out in a dress because it would be a shocking sight. But it would be nearly as shocking, I believe, if i lost the beard. But in either case, I don't get the idea it would be disrespectful more or less in either case. But since you and others apparently feel that it is, it is a blessing I'll stay inside my home when that spirit so moves me!

[Krisi]

"Can a 350 lb footballer look feminine? Should she lose 200 lbs before putting on those Sketchers tights?"

Male or female, lose the 200 lb. Spandex is a privilege, not a right!

[mykell]

Allie, I have to disagree with you, society decides what is acceptable. In today's world, society has just started accepting people dressing as the other gender. As we all know there are still countries and many people who have yet to accept transgendered people never mind CDs.

I am not saying that he was 'wrong' because of the red dress, he would have been just as 'wrong' in a green woman's top with skinny jeans. Nor am I saying that he did not have the right to wear whatever he wanted. I am however saying that in MY opinion a man with a beard and a red dress out in public is not advancing the cause.

I saw the whole thing as a huge positive, 5 pretty 'normal' middle aged intelligent people all agreed that there was nothing wrong with a guy out dressed as a woman, the issue they had was the facial hair, which everyone would agree is a very very male signal.
.................................................. .................................................. .............................

No one is saying he should be banned from what he did, but I am saying it is not good for our community and for acceptance in the general world.

hey gang can you feel the hypocrisy of this, you were sitting at a table with 5 normal reasonably intelligent middle aged people that you are not out to? GUILTY let me wag the finger at myself first. BUT im not bitching that society doesnt accept (________), now assume how the conversation would of went if you had revealed your true self to the 5 "normals" , now add in all the other "normals" that find out that dad, uncle, nephew, brother, associate, friend, is a crossdresser, or transgender not trangendered. (see spellcheck) ............ now how does society see a man in a dress with a beard.

we are our worst advocates to society.....in a past thread i wrote of a time i went to payless, there they are.....LBD unshaved trying on shoes, dont see that everyday, i went and tried on a pair of womens sneaks, garnered no attention whatsoever, did not purchase them and left, my regret was that he was obviously man in a dress i did not approach and say hi or the like. was he wrong

as far as restrooms go, neutrality is the only way for it to work, so like handicap access this too will take time....

[SarahleeNH]

Krisi-- I really didn't want to, but you made me really laugh! Indeed! It is a privilege, and one I certainly have yet to earn! Thanks for the laugh!

[Becky Blue]

So after all the bickering and snarkiness, did anyone change anyone's mind? Did we all agree on something?

I've lost track of the original question. Some people have asked me questions but not because they want to know the answers but because they want to continue to argue their opinion. Nobody ever wins an Internet argument so I'll be moving on.

As the OP let me say Kirsti this is a forum the purposes are to discuss things, we are having a discussion, there is no requirement for anyone to change anyones mind nor agree. You seem to be the only one getting upset. When I wrote the OP I knew it would raise some different opinions, that is what a forum is actually for. I did not expect to change anyones minds nor change mine, but I did read some really well thought out opinions from others that I did not agree with but respected their views as I hoped they did mine.

- - - Updated - - -


I respect your opunion, truly. But my issue is that I'm not trying to look like or pass as a woman. For me, I like the feminine expression. Can a 350 lb footballer look feminine? Should she lose 200 lbs before putting on those Sketchers tights? Is she just not trying and therefore being disrespectful? You see, I feel I have a dual nature that moves along a spectrum for some reason (a mystery to me). And I have worn this full beard, uninterrupted, for over 40 years! I won't go out in a dress because it would be a shocking sight. But it would be nearly as shocking, I believe, if i lost the beard. But in either case, I don't get the idea it would be disrespectful more or less in either case. But since you and others apparently feel that it is, it is a blessing I'll stay inside my home when that spirit so moves me!

Sarahlee a 350 lbs man crossdressing should wear the same sorts of clothes a 350 lbs woman would wear. I can't imagine many 350 lbs women would be wearing sketchers tights whatever they are.

My point is if we as biological men are going out dressed as women, I feel its appropriate that we respect the women that we are dressing as. I am slim and tall and in my 50's and I have thin long legs that look great in a short skirt, BUT I feel that if I were to go out as a 50 year old woman in a short skirt its probably not very respectful at my age. I feel similarly about facial hair, a guy out in a dress with chest hair showing prominently or a 350 lbs footballer in tights...

What any of the above do in their own homes is entirely up to them, but I think we have responsibilities and obligations when we venture out

[windshear]

Sarahlee a 350 lbs man crossdressing should wear the same sorts of clothes a 350 lbs woman would wear.

How is this different than:

A man should wear the sorts of clothes a man would wear.

Now I would agree if this was advice:

A 350 lbs man crossdressing should wear the same sorts of clothes a 350 lbs woman would wear if they want to achieve the look.

And as I've said before, I don't buy this notion of "respecting women" by conforming physically. By that standard most of us have failed at the Adam's Apple, bone structure or fat distribution.


What any of the above do in their own homes is entirely up to them, but I think we have responsibilities and obligations when we venture outWhat "responsibilities"? To whom are we "obligated"? This just seems a like vague non-argument.

[ambigendrous]

I think we might be having a semantics issue here: to me there is difference between "wanting to dress as a woman" and "wanting to wear women's clothes"...

When I dress up in my "comfortable" clothes, I don't see myself as dressing as a woman - I have absolutely no illusions of being anything close to a woman, but I am wearing women's clothes. It's no different than me going to the local ice rink for a pickup hockey game and wearing the jersey, pants, and socks of the local NHL team. Am I dressing as a professional hockey player, or am I simply wearing the clothes?

Certainly those who go to the trouble of using wigs, padding, makeup, voice training, etc. are indeed trying to dress as a woman, but like everything else in life we don't all have to fit into that cubbyhole to be part of this society...

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, your post in 74 is a different concept, you are asking how those 5 would feel if they knew about me? and saying by not telling I am not advancing 'the cause' that I am talking about.

I choose not to tell for various reasons that are personal such a work etc... when I go out as Becky I try very hard to be as normal a woman as I can be under the circumstances, when I have to interact with people I try to make a positive impression. I have been the first Tgirl that many people have met and I hope that I left them with a good impression that provides them with a positive memory.

[Georgette_USA]

I haven't kept up with this thread.

Yes there are judgements of what people in the TG spectrum, should and shouldn't do or present.

I have seen that here and other places on-line and in the people I see on a somewhat regular basis.

Here I have been questioned on my past. Gave my FB account name to any that want to see my regular life. Some said that it doesn't look like a TG persons page, and seems to be a lot of CDs. That may be true, not sure what a TG person page should look like. And yes I have many CD and Drag and Lesbian and Gay and TG/TS as friends. Also have a lot of my extended family as I am not ashamed to have many different friends, and my family supports them also. I have some from here as FB friends also, and see them in person on/off, and if any others want to, welcome. I realize many of my friends have dual FB accounts, and that is fine.

In the on-line world there seems to always be these stupid arguments on any kind of hierarchy of people in the TG spectrum. We share a lot and we should be supportive of others ideas and whatever their presentations are.

In the 3 TG support groups I go to, when CDs show up you can feel the isolation.

In the meetup group I frequent, they have a somewhat monthly soiree for all to come, from the first timer CDs to any cis female friends and SOs and TG/TS, last one had some 80 + people. I went to one recently with my date being a Lesbian friend in town on business. She was accepted by all, and my friend tried to chat with as many as possible, and she had a very enjoyable time.

I admire the work that some CDs and Drag artists go thru. I don't have that kind of patience. I have my own dress sense, from simple day wear to a little bit of goth/punk look at times, love skull wear.

[Shelly Preston]

Male or female, lose the 200 lb. Spandex is a privilege, not a right!

I find this comment hugely insulting to anyone who is around 350 lbs

Anyone should be able to wear what they want no matter their weight.

Who says they want to lose any weight anyway.

[SarahleeNH]

Shelly, my apologies for my insensitivity. It was meant to be self deprecating, carrying 50+ too many pounds myself. I know only too well what I look like in Spandex (as I do own two pairs!). I can easily see in hindsight it was insulting, and I regret the piling on.

[Krisi]

I find this comment hugely insulting to anyone who is around 350 lbs

Anyone should be able to wear what they want no matter their weight.

Who says they want to lose any weight anyway.

I forget sometimes how fragile many members here are so if I insulted you, that's not what I meant to do. What I posted is a pretty common sentiment and I hear it often from friends and others. Most people feel you should wear clothing that's appropriate for your body. I know my wife and other female friends do.

So anyone can wear whatever they want, whatever their weight. They should know and understand that others may be laughing at them. That's reality, like it or not.

The same goes for the man in a dress. He has a right to wear it for whatever reason. Same thing though, the reality is, people will be laughing at him.

- - - Updated - - -


As the OP let me say Kirsti this is a forum the purposes are to discuss things, we are having a discussion, there is no requirement for anyone to change anyones mind nor agree. You seem to be the only one getting upset. .....................

You missed my point and I am not upset, just amused. What is happening here is, the same people continue to make the same point but their language is getting "snarky". By that, I mean as the "discussion" goes on, they are beginning to slip insults into their posts to try to make the point that their opinion is superior to their opponent's opinion.

This is a pretty common situation on Internet forums and not just this one. We have the protection of our keyboards so we can say whatever we want without the danger of a closed fist coming our way. In the end, everyone goes away, perhaps a little angry, but with the same opinions they entered with.

[windshear]

Krisi,

None of us should have to walk on eggshells for others... The "fragility" of some people is absurd. Given the escalation of this trend, eventually the only acceptable dialogue will be complete and utter silence.

[Shelly Preston]

I was not personally insulted by the comment as I am not close to 350 lbs.

This is not about walking on eggshells or the fragility of some.

Its about having a discussion and being civil to each other.

I would hope members here would be intelligent enough to make a point without being insulting.

Thanks to those who replied to me.

[Becky Blue]

In essence the 350 Lbs CD is not relevant to the topic. Most people M F CD (whatever) tend to wear clothes that suit their body shape and those that don't do so for whatever reason they wish to.

The topic was about a man with a well kept beard going out in a dress, which to me is a statement of intent and how my friends and wife reacted.

[mykell]

Mikell, your post in 74 is a different concept, you are asking how those 5 would feel if they knew about me? and saying by not telling I am not advancing 'the cause' that I am talking about.

I choose not to tell for various reasons that are personal such a work etc... when I go out as Becky I try very hard to be as normal a woman as I can be under the circumstances, when I have to interact with people I try to make a positive impression. I have been the first Tgirl that many people have met and I hope that I left them with a good impression that provides them with a positive memory.

my point in my post is not a concept, its a reality, we are our worst advocates, and as i stated im still half in the closet, im not a flag waving supporter passing out fliers at LGBT events, i try to portray a good image for how i present, when i meet folks out in the "wild" i am an open book, i am honest and respectful....i too wish to make a positive impression, i now volunteer at a LGBT facility and while there i dont feel the need to wear my makeup. at my meet-up and at another t-group i attend many folks come in various stages of dress, they attend with friends and family, who am i or you to judge them, they are being true to themselves, i am being true to me, and you have shared how you feel. they are advancing there cause as some may be the first bearded crossdresser that people meet and they may be hoping to leave them with a good impression so that they have a positive memory after the interaction.

i was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the thread and many of the comments, i used your quote as this is your thread and was not judging, but sharing what i observed morphed from a comment to a judgement. your normal and mine or others normal are different, 40yrs ago bippity bopping down the road in womens clothes was not my normal, today....pretty much.

shelly im often disappointed, ive noticed how the most sensitive folks lob the most disparaging comments with no regard for others feelings or common respect....

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, my OP was focused on the event and the 5 'normal' people's opinion. I did not want to cloud it with my opinion, which was similar to theirs anyway.

I agree with your point above, you are at LGBT events where some people are very bravely are showing that side of themselves in a protected place and have come partly dressed which is the way they can feel comfortable, that is to be applauded on every level.

I think that my point about representing our community when we go out was aimed at going out in public places where people who have no exposure to the trans community see us.

Imagine if someone had been outside that theatre in Melbourne and had never seen a CD or Trans person that they were aware of. imagine if my guy in the red dress with the well trimmed beard was their first. How do you feel that person's opinion of the Trans community would be from that first sighting?

[mykell]

becky my reply was focused on the opinions you and others have shared after the OP, it went from statements to judgements, i have seen bearded folks in the "wild" and at my LGBT venues. its not my cup of tea....
so again.....like you they are just being true to themselves and may be the first bearded CD those folks meet and are just trying to make a good first impression to them. not sure what the "theatre in Melbourne" reference alludes to BUT i guessing that from theyre first sighting of a Transgender person or the first sighting of a trekkie convention, comicon, furry, B&D convention, heck we have a sex toy convention here every year, so just because it will be unconventional the first time someone sees someone else out enjoying those activities and sees people who attend them at stops along theyre way to or from them and find they are not ordinary repetition does not bode to acceptance of any of those activities, just awareness that we are not all the same and like different things. so in this case only time will tell. who are any of us to judge them is my point. its legal and they are not hurting anyone.

"normal"
heck we're not even gonna agree on what football is....

[phili]

Heyy, wait- I am that man!

Observations from my window -listening as Becky did, but to a conversation among a big group of crossdressers:

Some nice and generous moderates who espouse live and let live, as a really simple way to avoid creating social conflict where it really isn't justified-[ if we hold to the standard of 'is anyone harmed by this behavior?"]. This has the advantage of liberating creative thinking in society which has at least as much potential to benefit society as it does to allow antisocial behavior that harms people. We then can suppress that, while keeping the benefit of all that is not harmful.

Many who want to enforce rules for social acceptance that they find agreeable, [this is the 'if you are going to crossdress, try to pass or at least 'respect' the code of dress expected of women, harrumph'] presumably because they are successful in complying with them and like these rules!

Clues about the deep emotions and cultural presuppositions- i.e. a man who tries to conform to feminine standards would not be expected to act like a man, i.e. predatory, while a man who wears a beard is keeping a stake in the man card- so who knows what he will do next.

The natural gossip trajectory that starts with any unusual thing and declares it strange and to be mocked or avoided. Piling on and generating good feelings by nitpicking - well - look, he has some sense, his beard is neat, but...bald- ick. Then it morphs into all sorts of speculation about the man, ascribing him all sorts of motivations, up to and including mocking trans people [uh- he is a trans people]. Perhaps he has his right to do what he pleases, but we have the right to ostracize him! Asserting that 'we' know what is ok and not for crossdressers to do. Asserting that we need to keep purity in our group norms or people won't like us as much!

Discussion turns to public celebrities like Conchita Wurst or Jacob Tobias, vs Caitlyn. Speculation- mostly negative, which, in the absence of actually asking these men what they feel, is either generously agnostic, or springs from internalized norms that demonize the 'other' in order to preserve one's sense of being on the 'right' team, affirm it publicly to others, reassert group norms, etc.

Digression on men who make sexually provocative statements to teens. How did he come into it? Oh yes- the demon in another guise.

Digression to make allowance for truly committed social activists who are trying to educate millions about gender norms. But- if you are a nobody, get in step with our POV.

I am that man. I am also Jacob and Elliot, hence standing up for myself and others like me here. Not that you asked, but I can tell you that when I am out and chatting with someone, I am just enjoying the chat, relieved and happy that my society is now stable enough and smart enough to realize I am not a freak, a danger, or even that much of an outlier. I can thank our brave celebrities for that, and the thousands of people who are coming out all over the place and claiming a right to exist without the static of ignorance.

Sure, it is everyone's right to stay ignorant, to assert group norms and bully others. I am wondering if anyone feels an urge to refer back to the golden rule. Why are so many here, who suffer at the hands of others in this way, are so confidently turning around and delivering the same punishment to someone that seems like an easy target [bald! bearded! he's not trying! he must be challenging us! ] . I even heard someone generously say that big men were ok as long as they tried to look like women.

A few point out -does anyone else see the tragic irony here? Others moderate their positions a bit. Leaders reassert the norms- " I'm sorry but these are the norms!"

Uh- really! Glad you are here to enlighten us and keep us in line. I am sympathetic. It is tough trying to create a set of norms that allow for crossdressing!

I'm confident that the only norm set that is going to actually make life better for all of us at once is to allow for free choice in presentation. Once can assert that it will never happen, but it is happening, and positive social revolution occurs when people stay the course. Fundamental personal and civil rights are perpetually under attack, as human nature, as observed from my window, is always at work trying to curtail them for various reasons!

That said, my call to everyone on this Forum is to consciously enlarge the tent. I heard many say that their chance of success as crossdressers was undermined by bearded men. That is a valid question, and worthy of discussion and gaining experimental evidence. That seems to be the core driver for the urge to ostracize the man. I can't bear to imagine that as a group we would want to splinter into competitive factions. This seems to be a critical issue for determining whether solidarity among crossdressers is justified!

HERE IS an Open invitation to any one who prides themselves on passing or at least feels that they have delivered the proper amount of respect for female norms: let's go out together, to one public place of your choosing and one of mine, where we don't know anyone, and take notes and report back here.

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, reference to Melbourne Theatre.. simple the guy we saw was standing in a crowd of people who were outside a cinema complex, sorry for the confusion. And yes I have given my opinion and yes I don't think it is a good look. Just because something is legal does not make it always acceptable. Some people believe that its the right of an individual to do what they want and that their right too. I believe that people have a level of social responsibility and as members of this community I think that the route to more general acceptance is by us showing people that although we are crossdressing, we are basically normal people.

Phill, firstly to quote you "Many who want to enforce rules for social acceptance that they find agreeable, [this is the 'if you are going to crossdress, try to pass or at least 'respect' the code of dress expected of women, harrumph'] presumably because they are successful in complying with them and like these rules! "

There is a very very big difference between trying to pass and having a well maintained beard. As someone said in another thread, facial hair is the first thing a lot of trans men aspire to? why? Because it is arguably the number one sign of Masculinity.

I have never heard of Jakob or Elliot, they are political activists not really relevant to what we are discussing here in my opinion.

End of the day 5 'normal' people walked away with a negative impression. I don't see how what they saw will one day change their view on trans people.

[mykell]

so if the first gender non conforming folks never took that first step out the door because of thoughts like yours where would you be today, because we were not thought of as normal and i assure you for the most part folks dont think that way even today. so if they never made the push to be themselves out in the "wild" in front of the "melbourne theater" would we all invariably be shut ins, because someone didnt think we were normal, and in case you missed it from phili's window..... seems kinda normal to me....ill restate my earlier comment, if we were out as dad, uncle, nephew, brother, friend, associate, those dinner time conversations would be different and "give us a route to more general acceptance by us showing people that although we are crossdressing we are basically normal people." im proud of phili and folks like them....loud and proud, in your face....and you didnt take phili up on the "open invitation" to go out together.

[pantyhoselvr kendra]

I wont go out of the house dressed while i have facial hair. Just my view for me

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, with due respect I don't agree with you. yes the first crossdressers that were seen would have been huge shock value to anyone seeing them and yes luckily today many Trans people can happily go out safely and in many places happily accepted. i don't see that one day there will be a whole lot of bearded ladies out there that society will accept as 'almost normal'.

The best part of the whole thing was how the other 5 people agreed that there was absolutely nothing wrong with a man presenting as a woman.

I did not take up Phill's tempting offer as we live in different continents, but if he throws in an airfare I would happily go out with him beard and all, just because I don't think its a good look doesn't mean i would not be seen with him.

[AllieSF]

Thanks Mikell and Phili for clearly stating the points I was trying to make here. Becky does not like to see a trans person (umbrella term) dressed in women's clothing and a beard out in public, with or without a wig. I get that and don't present like that myself. However, she is using the concept of setting back our trans cause for more acceptance for justifying her opinion that those types of people should stay home until they shave. She uses the beard factor as the determining factor and for her unacceptable (to me) reason why that person should stay the hell home, while graciously acknowledging their right to go out, even though she wants to restrict that right through her comments and position. It sounds very self serving to me.

I was the one who brought in the example of the 250 or 350 linebacker into the discussion. Even though this person's size and described obviously male mannerisms and walking style makes him no different from the bearded man example as obvious male features in the OP's initial theater siting, she continues to say that the beard is truly the only male identifier that may turn people off. Here we have a trans person presenting female in an acceptable way except for the beard. He was not poorly dressed or acting in mannerisms or loud voice in any way to shock people. He was living his life as he saw fit and not bothering others. The issues brought up in the conversation, were somewhat positive with the supposedly only truly negative being the beard. Since the OP did not pursue the conversation with some good questions to further understand their feelings since she herself is not out and from what I understand only goes out on a limited basis, she is only surmising, assuming and guessing as to what the others truly felt based on that short conversation. Who is to say that maybe that exposure to that person in the red dress and beard may not eventually help those same people start to get a true better understanding (that we are individuals and come in many shapes, sizes and presentations) of us trans people who are probably all around them without them ever knowing, and help lead them to to better tolerance and acceptance. Who says that they will even agree with the OP's premise that is bad for all the other proper presenters? I would guess that probably most of us would never have taken that first step out of the house if someone much like ourselves with very little dressing experience hadn't taken more than a few steps out of their safe sanctuaries of home. Someone had to be first and lead the way, with or without the flag.

Becky, I get where you are coming from, but, if you are so strong in your opinion that he should have stayed home if he didn't or couldn't shave, why don't you stay home until you can truly pass so as to not upset some innocent bystander in the real world? I personally don't think that you should stay home for that, and I don't that anyone should stay home for not presenting as you and others here want them to. Many of those innocent bystanders want all of us to stay home because in their minds we do not represent decent males or females. So, you believe in a yes for some and a no for others? Why not for all? We are all so different, have different skills, natural benefits or faults, freedoms or restrictions, desires, wants and needs. How can you and a few others here feel that you can set the ground rules and social norms for others. If you do not want or need the acceptance and tolerance of the non trans public out there, then endorse your restrictive views. However, if you are also looking for acceptance from others, then loosen up and give that same acceptance to others of us that are like you and different at the same time.

[Becky Blue]

Allie, where do I start?
Firstly this is an internet forum where we discuss stuff and give our opinions. My opinion does not agree with yours, that does not make it self serving. Perhaps you would have a point if I were to have gone up to the guy and told him what I think. Of course I would never do that, but I have the right to disapprove in my thoughts and opinions and I think its great that we are discussing this matter in which we clearly disagree in a logical and respectful manner.

Secondly, your analogy of the 350 LBS dresser is not the same as a beard. Most 350 LBS people are not that way out of choice and it would be extremely hard to reduce that weight if they wanted to. That is not analogous to consciously growing and maintaining a beard.

You cannot seem to discern the difference between male born characteristics and male options. If a person has large shoulders or any very male characteristics that mean they will never pass under no circumstances am I suggesting they should not be going out dressed. I am on the record saying passing is not important. I have said it numerous times and I will say it again... A beard and moustache is a conscious choice having big shoulders or a prominent adams apple is not.

You say that he was not poorly dressed, that is where we disagree I think a man in a red dress with a beard is poorly dressed and 5 other people seemed to think so too.

Thirdly, you say "The issues brought up in the conversation, were somewhat positive with the supposedly only truly negative being the beard. Since the OP did not pursue the conversation with some good questions to further understand their feelings since she herself is not out and from what I understand only goes out on a limited basis, she is only surmising, assuming and guessing as to what the others truly felt based on that short conversation" Not so, the conversation I said (I think) in the OP went for about 15 minutes, and I was able to ask some careful questions. I simply reported the net result of the discussion which was very positive and Trans people and crossdressers, but negative about the facial hair. I am not surmising not assuming nor guessing anything, I am reporting what 5 people said.

Finally, again to belabour the point that you keep making - a beard is the most male sign one can display it is an OPTIONAL sign. Being big or very masculine looking is not an option. You are putting words in my mouth by assuming by being negative to facial hair on a CD is being negative to people who can't pass - NOT SO.

[phili]

I went out today in a nice dress, stockings and heels, to about 10 stores and the local college bookstore, doing Christmas returns, buying hardware, getting coffee and sharing a table, getting advice on how to operate my phone, etc. I can unswervingly give encouragement to all who are afraid to go out with facial hair or perhaps other distinctive manly characteristics, AND extend Becky's conclusion about her 5 friends! I can say that the world I live in, and very, very likely, the world you live in, is ok with man wearing a dress and stockings and heels.

As others have noted, many I met and talked with might wonder why, and might someday even ask. But the answer was so simple, and I just showed it in my face- Looked interesting, thought I'd try it, seemed like I'd enjoy it! What do you think? No worries!"

That's enough and it is accurate. It was very peaceful, actually, since it was so normal. And that normal feeling resonates with others who are actually talking with you, as opposed to, say, speculating about you from a distance. I think it is because I am not trying to get them to do anything special. I am not struggling to have a feminine voice, which would complicate their listening. I am presenting kind of a hybrid being, and not asking for judgment on how well I am succeeding at simulating a female. There is no question for them what to call me, and Sir pops right out!

AND- most importantly as I reflect on it- everything that happened was good. I am still feeling peaceful. It met my need to have space to show myself truthfully, and be as much of a feminine being as I want to be.

[Becky Blue]

Phili, you were not visiting downunder by chance today :confused:? A person in a blue dress with a longish beard walked right past my car this morning. Thats two bearded CD's in just under 2 weeks!!!!