T level question .

[Teresa]

OK this question relates to my thread about the feeling not going away .

I've never had my T level checked but my question is what happens when it does drop. Does the turmoil reduce to a more livable level or is the need or urge stronger to transition.

I do wonder if I will get a balanced answer if it swings the other way to the point where people feel comfortable with their lives that they don't have the same need to be on the forum.

This question is a prelude to a more in depth one about transtion.

[AllieSF]

I just had my T level checked recently and it was labeled low outside the normal range. Now, I do know that T levels will drop for men (not sure if for all, a few or most) as we age. I am definitely aged so I accept my drop as an age related. Since it probably happened over a long period of time, I cannot really say how it has caused other changes inside of me, both physically and mentally. Now, if one goes on a T Blocker or has an orchiectomy, both short term quick changes in the T level, then I would expect one to be better able to notice some changes caused by the decrease. I think that the mental and emotional changes are sometimes debatable since making the big decision to purposely lower the T level may in itself cause some lessening of previous internal strife one had before. Do a search here on HRT and read what many of those doing that have experienced. There is a ton of comments on that side (mental/emotional) of hormones.

[Dana44]

My T levels are Low but operating quite okay and still get horny. I am getting more feminine and the low T level stays about the same.

[LeaP]

I'll use the same comparison I always do: For me, T was like being on crack. Taking T down was a HUGE relief in so many ways that I won't even try to list them here.

When some others take down their T levels, they feel awful. Less. Depressed. Anxious. Weak. Etc.

Doubtless there are reactions in the middle ... but I've never run into anyone whose were.

My turmoil was reduced by HRT, but it turns out turmoil over sex and gender is the least of the considerations in some ways. Remember, there are those who are cross-sexed, who transition, and who never experienced GD. Give that some thought as it might apply to your life.

[Heidi Stevens]

I started HRT in March 2015 with an already low T level. But it was not low enough to stop my mental problems. I eased onto Estriol, but went full dose on Spiro from day one. My T dropped immediately and my mood become better as the blocker kicked in. By adding and later increasing E, my mental anguish started to fade away. But just removing the T in those early months was great for my mental state.
Here is a graph of my testosterone over this journey. The green lines are the normal male ranges for Testosterone.

270828

[Mirya]

I've never had my T level checked but my question is what happens when it does drop. Does the turmoil reduce to a more livable level or is the need or urge stronger to transition.


Personally, I've been on HRT for about a year, and I started a T-blocker and E at the same time. So I don't know what it feels like to have just a T-blocker without the E. Is that what you're asking?

While I don't know what it feels like, I do know that it's not healthy to be on a T-blocker exclusively in the long-term without E to replace it. The human body needs either T or E as its primary hormone. Without one or the other, you'll start running into health problems.

[Jeri Ann]

I agree with Mirya. Your body must have a primary hormone. If T drops to nothing it needs to be replaced with either T or E.

I'm not sure what the low threshold for T is before intervention is necessary.

Jeri

[Janice Ashton]

Hi Teresa,

I have been with the NHS for over three years, they supply my HRT and T Blockers under medical supervision and the results are considerable.
My advice Teresa is to seek professional medical advice about T Blockers and HRT and as you appear to be a UK resident? Your GP should provide all the help and confidential advice you may need.

Regards

Janice

[Krisi]

I was diagnosed with low testosterone and prescribed a popular rub on gel. I've been on it for years. At a recent checkup, my doctor told me that my testosterone level was low but acceptable. He said that was better than being high.

Since I sometimes forget to apply it, I asked him what happens if the level is too low. His response was that I would lose strength and endurance and possibly suffer from ED.

[Heidi Stevens]

For those who are curious, high testosterone is anything over 1000 and low is anything under 250.
Kristi, I am down to 10 on that scale and have had no noticeable loss in endurance or strength. During this whole time I remained active and continued a maintenance routine at gym. Last summer I even led a backpacking trip in the canyons of Arizona and Utah carrying a 55 pound pack for 40 miles. That don't sound like a loss of strength or endurance to me.
Maybe I'm an exception to the rule, ymmv. As far as the ED, your doctor is right there.

[Jeri Ann]

Thanks Heidi,

The effects of testosterone levels is probably an individual thing. A certain T level may affect one person differently than another. My T level has always been under 200 because of medical reasons. It never did result in lack of strength or energy. In my case, and I am only speaking for myself, I would rather take a bullet than to add Testosterone to my body. I have worked too hard to reduce and replace it with E. Now, granted, I don't have the strength and stamina I once had. E could be the culprit but more than likely it is age. Paleontologist will soon be excavating my footprints.

I can still get around though. Last May I hiked to the summit of Mt. Charleston in Nevada and a few months before that I hiked the Grand Canyon. I just take more frequent breaks.

Jeri

[Pat]

You should probably keep in mind that a man's "low testosterone" level is many times higher than a woman's high level. That could be why men can be diagnosed "low T" and still not experience upper body weakness.

[PretzelGirl]

T definitely gives you more strength because it is responsible for muscle mass. Each person is an individual, so it will affect us all differently, but on average, T gives you more strength. Heidi, you just may keep in good shape and that may be a bug part of it. I have watched two ladies here who ran long distance and both are having to work real hard to get to previous levels. They can get there, but it certainly is tougher.

T levels are dependent on the lab performing the test. The lab I used had the high end at 720 and anything over was high T. In Nov of 2013 I hit 962 and I was certainly high as the doctor starting checking for cancer real quick. It probably was a piece of my decision to get moving on my transition.

[Tommie.]

This has been a really interesting discussion and I really found the chart helpful so thanks Heidi. I am going to the endo Tuesday and will have a little more to go on now. Teresa, I am curious about "This question is a prelude to a more in depth one about transition".... do you plan to ask it... or was that rhetorical I guess?

[Suzanne F]

I can attest to the fact that even a little bit of T gives much greater strength. With T blockers I ran a 4:01 marathon on a grueling Boston course. 7 months later with no production of T anymore I can only run a few miles at 10 minute pace. I will improve but without any T I will never run 3:17 marathons again. No complaints but everyone should know that there are profound changes with HRT.

[jentay1367]

When do you feel the loss of strength actually began to be noticeable, Suzanne? I've been on E and Spiro in transitioning levels for 6.5 months and frankly, I really don't feel like I have lost any strength at all. Not to mention I'm not seeing much in body measurement changes. Gained about 7.5 pounds though. It's so hard to find any information that could give me a frame of reference on where I am at in the spectrum. Its so frustrating. I do have nicer skin....less body hair.....and some breast buds, but that's it for anything physical. The mental aspect though? well, it has been night and day.....I'm sane now and that makes it all worth it. Lisa

[Teresa]

Tommie,
No I'm working on it, I know it's going to be slightly controversial so I'm making sure I have all my thoughts and facts right.

[Nikki.]

Suzanne, were your 10 minute mile times post surgery? I wonder how much long term recovery plays into the increase in times vs. no mo T? And age?

For myself I can tell a huge difference in speed and endurance if I'm not consistent. In my early 30's a week or two off was no big deal, but in my mid 40's my performance plummets if I take time off, then it's back to square one.

[Suzanne F]

At exactly 12 months HRT no surgery in great shape and down to 168 pounds I was about 10 per cent slower than training predicted. Yes post surgery I have had long lay off and gained 25 lbs. That is part if problem without T. Healing took longer and fat developed. I will be back but doubtful can get back to presurgery level.

[Zooey]

When do you feel the loss of strength actually began to be noticeable, Suzanne? I've been on E and Spiro in transitioning levels for 6.5 months and frankly, I really don't feel like I have lost any strength at all.

I noticed it at 6 months, but by the one year mark it was SUBSTANTIAL. At almost two years, my upper body strength in particular is WAAAAY down (as are the size of my shoulders and arms), and I've seen quite a bit of body shape change. In particular, despite still being overweight, my natural waist is substantially more defined, and a bit higher than it used to be.

[jentay1367]

Thanks Melissa, that at least gives me a baseline of what may happen. I keep floundering looking for an anchor and frame of reference for what I'm experiencing. There's so much apocryphal info floating out there, it's tough to make heads or tails of it.

[Zooey]

It's hard to do better than that, I'm afraid. So much of it is down to an individual body's response, levels, method (pill, injection, etc.) that it's impossible to give anything other than anecdotal data.

[Tommie.]

I have lost strength and height.... now that has occurred since a year of female herbals and two months of HRT.... but neither strength or height do I miss.... feet have gotten slightly smaller (as well as a few other things lol). I look for more in the next 6 months. Weight is getting really difficult to work and we are starting to refocus on our vegan diet again and strict portion control. I hope for the things mentioned above in shoulders and waist....

[Leanne2]

Heidi, What is your E level. If you have no T then your E level must be normal for a woman or you would be having problems.........Leanne

[Tommie.]

If the normal T level is 250 to 1000, what would a normal E level be.... I have a trip to the endo tomorrow.

[jentay1367]

Well...all endo's have a different tact and protocol, but most shoot for 200 pg/ml. 250 for T is still too high for most protocols. Around the <100 pg/ml range. This is definitely individual to the Doctor....but these numbers seem to be a good mean average for the MTF transitioner. Lisa

[Heidi Stevens]

Leanne, my E level is at 160. That puts me in the low normal range for most women. It also means I feel great.

[Leanne2]

Heidi, My T level is 414 and my E is 241. I am on Spiro to lower my T but I am not taking anything to raise my E. I wish that my T was as low as yours. And I don't know why my E is as high as it is...............Leanne

[Heidi Stevens]

You may have to up that Spiro to get Mr. T to get down. But, I was low T in the first place. Good luck!

[Zooey]

Units, units, units, units. Measurements require units!!!!!

[Heidi Stevens]

Ok Zooey, I got your Units: the E is in picograms per liter and the T is in nanograms per liter.
You sound like an old chemistry professor I had in college. And I'm an engineer and should know better.

For those not use to these small amounts, a picogram is 1/1000 a nanogram. So that 10 nanograms of T is still a lot compared to 0.16 nanograms of E.

[LeaP]

Check your denominators!

[Tommie.]

Furlongs per fortnight.... bananograms... lol. I see the point though.... but Lisa's number were all in pg/ml right so it's all apples and apples?

[Zooey]

In case it helps anyone, my levels have been very consistent for the last 1.5 years at around...

Estradiol : 211 pg/mL (Std. Mid-Cycle Peak Range 34-400)
Testosterone (Total): 20 ng/dL (Std Range 2-45)
Testosterone (Free); 1.3 pg/mL (Std Range 0.1-6.4)

Free testosterone is (effectively) the actual bio-available testosterone. All ranges are for females. For reference, the standard range for testosterone (total) for men my age would be 349-945 ng/dL, so even a man with "low T" has SIGNIFICANTLY more testosterone than a woman with relatively high T.

1 ng/dL = 10 pg/mL