If you don't think you are passable

[Jennifer Michelle]

I was wondering and I have no real objective evidence of this to confirm how passable I am, but do you ladies think its a bad idea to go out if you don't consider yourself passable even when fully dressed and done up?

[Jaylyn]

I guess that question is best answered by each individual being themselves. I really haven't seen too many CDs that are truelly passable. There's always something that's a tell tale. Sometimes I think maybe we are only passable in our own minds.

[Allisa]

No. Expressing yourself in clothing and appearance is a right for all people, if your not doing anything illegal why hide yourself. If we(gender variant)are not seen than how can we expect to be accepted. Out of sight out of mind is not in our favor.

[Rachael Leigh]

The only CDs who I have seen here and these are pictures of course which can distort are those 40 or younger, but as said
most of us do not pass 100 percent I just want to blend and for me I'm happy with that if someone really can't tell when I walk by all the better, but pass most likely not

[Billy]

If we(gender variant)are not seen than how can we expect to be accepted. Out of sight out of mind is not in our favor.

Does this philosophy mean that it is better to not be passable so that others will notice?

[Lorileah]

Presentable is a better word than passable. If you want to be noticed you can do it as a GG would. Look good, look like you belong.

[Majella St Gerard]

I don't think I pass but I do blend in, dress nice and my make up is natural. I've been told that I pass by many people and take it as a compliment.

[mykell]

No. Expressing yourself in clothing and appearance is a right for all people, if your not doing anything illegal why hide yourself. If we(gender variant)are not seen than how can we expect to be accepted. Out of sight out of mind is not in our favor.


this is the reality we face, it comes with sacrifices both positive and negative, each of us has to find the balance we can live with....

[CarolBrown]

I obviously don't pass, but, I go out dressed, however, I wear clothing that isn't obviously women's clothing when I am out and about and I have nail varnish on.

[Billy]

I have read that it is not a good idea to smile, look at, or acknowledge another crossdresser in public. So if you see one that is not passable only let others notice them, keep your head down and mind your own business.

[Meghan4now]

Billy, I think that's an interpretation of the statements that you've seen. What those statements were insinuating is that it is So Not cool to "make" "out" or "clock" a Sistah. You can always be polite and if appropriate, compliment. Just don't go out of your way to make it clear you know or think they are TG or CD. And don't assume they want to hear your story either.

I know it's tough, because your excited and want to share, but it's like your little sister wanting to tag along.

Oh and I like that Presentable! Have to remember that. Maybe tomorrow's word of the day.

[PeggyNell]

I know I can't "pass" but like Lorileah said, presentable is the way I want to be. I have only been to drag shows where I don't have to pass. I do want to be able to go out with my GG friend and not to turn too many heads. But as long as I am being ture to myself and doing what feels good to me. I really don't care if I am "passable"

[Jenniferathome]

No. I have written this a hundred times by now but it's a virtual impossibility that ANY cross dresser can pass as a genetic woman. We're just built so differently and we've learned throughout our lives to recognize the subtle differences between the sexes that passing is a fantasy.

I do not pass. I go out. Head up, shoulders back and meeting others eye to eye. I dress for the time, location and event and present as best I can. That is all anyone can do.

[Nikki A.]

Passing and going out are two different issues. As for myself, I do go out because I want to, passing is irrelevant. I try to dress well, maybe a little bit nicer that I need to, considering where I am going.
I guess I do okay in that people who know me, but see me for the first time don't always recognize me at first. That doesn't mean I pass but at least I look acceptable enough to create doubt at first.
I will never tell anyone that they need to venture out, that is their own decision. But as for myself, I enjoy it and I do own up to it. I have found that most people are ok with it and I have had many conversations with the other people at the church that I attend as Nikki. Confidence and friendliness are the key ingredients in a successful outing.

[Tracii G]

No. I have written this a hundred times by now but it's a virtual impossibility that ANY cross dresser can pass as a genetic woman. We're just built so differently and we've learned throughout our lives to recognize the subtle differences between the sexes that passing is a fantasy.

I do not pass. I go out. Head up, shoulders back and meeting others eye to eye. I dress for the time, location and event and present as best I can. That is all anyone can do.

This exactly.
I Know its hard for some to understand that passing is not the end all be all in our world.
Most of us don't pass but blend and thats the best we can do.

Billy I have to wonder where you come up with these comments.
Making eye contact or a smile is OK and keeping your head down is about the worst thing you can do.
You seem to have this preconceived notion on things that are quite incorrect.

[Jenniferathome]

... So if you see one <CD> that is not passable ...

So if you see a cross dresser that IS passable, how did you know?

[Billy]

I would not know. How would you? Are we talking about shoulder width, head size, finger length? Some here say there are none that are passable.

[docrobbysherry]

I can't pass and try to avoid going out to vanilla venues dressed. If u don't pass, u will be noticed and receive extra attention. Both good and bad!:sad:

T's ask if they passed after they've been out? I tell them if they aren't sure? They PASSED! Because when u don't pass? U sure as heck will know!:eek:


So if you see a cross dresser that IS passable, how did you know?
Because I was with them? U go out alone, Jenn, I don't. :heehee:

[ElleStreet]

Billy- I think Jennifer is saying that, by definition, if you see a passable crossdresser in public. You wouldn't know that it was a crossdresser. But drs has a point that you could know them I guess

D.R.S.
I I think depending on the place sometimes non-passable people are treated normally (or ignored bit not in an inherently negative way) so it's possible to not pass and not really know imo. But it does show the extent to which you don't pass as the worse/more obvious you look, the more likely you are to garner negative attention (but that could be in part due to how much your outfit stands out too)

[Glenda58]

I agree with others you don't pass you blend.

[Billy]

In Post 13 Jennifer says they are not passable. I do understand if there was such a thing as a passable CD they would obviously not be noticed.

[TrishaLake]

I am 219 pounds so I doubt I am passable, but I do my best and yes I go out. I do my best to be me and that is what I am ..lol

and what Jennifer said...

[Alice_2014_B]

I say it depends on the individual; no real definitive answer as a whole.
:)

[Kandi Robbins]

Go out as long as you are smart about it and dressed appropriately (for your age, for the time of day, for the place you are going to). No, you will not "pass" (there are many, many threads and comments to explain why). I go out ALL the time and I NEVER pass. But I dress very nicely and I do the single most important thing you can do to get around, I smile. Never a single negative experience.

[suzanne]

I absolutely don't pass, and I don't try to. When I want to go out, I put together the best looking, most tasteful and appropriate outfit I can manage then get out there and own it. Of course, people notice. I see heads turning all the time. Some can be seen whispering to whoever they're with. I hope their reaction, after the inevitable "What the heck?" is something like, "He actually makes it work". But I have no control over that. The only comments I ever get are compliments from some women. Nothing negative and nothing from men. Ever.

The only statement I really want to make is "This is who I am and I have a right to be dressed this way." But I feel that, being so highly visible, I have a responsibility to show the public that my way is not a threat to anything, thus making it a bit easier for the next CD to safely and confidently make an appearance.

How anyone else presents and handles themselves is their own business, as everyone has their own criteria and constraints. All I say is "The more of us out there the better for us all"

[Erin77]

I'm with suzanne on this one. Well put!

[Tracii G]

I agree wit suzanne too.
I go out in girl mode to blend and do OK I suppose because I get compliments like cute outfit from women or I love your hair that kind of stuff.
They can tell I am a guy under closer scrutiny and thats OK.
I try to look the best I can and thats is all I can do.
Its all any of us can do and thats the reality of it.
Billy you seem to go out to get noticed and that is just fine but being noticed is not always a good thing.

[LaurenS]

Out of sight out of mind is not in our favor.

Im not sure every outing has to be for "us". If I pass 100%, then why not do it for me? Not everything has to be a political statement, does it?

not bashing, just discussing!

[Lana Mae]

I have little experience out fully dressed. My trip to the wig shop was interesting. I got one disgusted look and one WTF type look both from males! Inside the wig shop, a female customer kept looking at me but it was like a pause in time, no comment to me or others and no expression change. A male SA called me sir. On my way out I said excuse me in my best Lana Mae voice and got a generic excuse me reply. Looks without comment basically! Just my $.02! Hugs Lana Mae Ps:

[GretchenM]

I think it is important to remember there are some GG's that are not passable according to the traditional view of what a GG looks like. I have met a few and they are otherwise completely passable - I am referring to behavior and attitude. I think passing as a GG involves more than looks. If you use a very narrow definition then anything that is not up to a Christi Brinkley standard is not passable. GG's come in all shapes and forms. There are some women who look more like men. So, I have to agree with Lorileah who introduced the term presentable in this thread. The passable goal is great if you can meet it, but not many of us have any hope of achieving it. If you use that standard you are likely to be unhappy no matter how you dress.

[Tiffany.]

I absolutely don't pass, and I don't try to. When I want to go out, I put together the best looking, most tasteful and appropriate outfit I can manage then get out there and own it. Of course, people notice. I see heads turning all the time. Some can be seen whispering to whoever they're with. I hope their reaction, after the inevitable "What the heck?" is something like, "He actually makes it work". But I have no control over that. The only comments I ever get are compliments from some women. Nothing negative and nothing from men. Ever.

The only statement I really want to make is "This is who I am and I have a right to be dressed this way." But I feel that, being so highly visible, I have a responsibility to show the public that my way is not a threat to anything, thus making it a bit easier for the next CD to safely and confidently make an appearance.

How anyone else presents and handles themselves is their own business, as everyone has their own criteria and constraints. All I say is "The more of us out there the better for us all"

I am with Suzanne 100% on this, as I absolutely don't pass and don't try to. I believe that everyone should be free to wear the clothes they want to, providing that is decent. I choose to wear dresses and skirts because I find them so incredibly comfortable. My favourites are my maxi dresses and skirts, also sweater/jumper dresses, but I do have a number of dresses and skirts in other styles and lengths.

I love putting together a stylish outfit to go out in, including shoes - heels, wedges, sandals or boots. I love the fact that there is so much choice when it comes to clothes and shoes designed for women - for me, men's clothes are positively boring.

I was a little apprehensive on the first few occasions I went out wearing a dress or skirt, but it turns out that I need not have worried!! And the best bit......... when I receive a compliment from a woman about my outfit. Like Suzanne, I have never had any negative comments and nothing from men.

[mykell]

passable
adjective: passable

1. just good enough to be acceptable; satisfactory.
"he spoke passable English"
synonyms:adequate, all right, fairly good, acceptable, satisfactory, moderately good, not (too) bad, average, tolerable, fair.

whos passable now ??? what are you passable as, everyone here has a different reason for dressing and how they dress. even if they pass are they "out". Too many variables to the equation.....

younger folks who do not water here "pass" they are out and having fun. not sharing theyre glory day stories here. they accept themselves and live life as themselves.

if we did see a "trans" person who "passed" how would we know ??? nobody knows a manly looking or sounding women, nobody noticed a feminine looking fellow with a womanly voice, we come in all shapes and sizes, why does it become competitive.
ive met and sat with some at support sessions and can tell you that until i was told by some individuals "who" or "how" they identified themselves i would have been wrong many times.

this old geezer at best can only hope to cast doubt, but if i only accepted myself at 20.....

so jennifer you seem like your young, you would have to find your comfort zone with what and how when you get to the point of walking out that door....think about safety....i know at first some wish to avoid contact with crowds and such, but a drive in the car or a walk through the mall can be good firsts. my first time was at my support group meeting. good luck when you take that step....

[Ressie]

I was wondering and I have no real objective evidence of this to confirm how passable I am, but do you ladies think its a bad idea to go out if you don't consider yourself passable even when fully dressed and done up?

Most CDs on this site want to blend in whether or not they pass. But there are some CDs that don't even care if they blend.

When out and about I sometimes see someone that I'm unsure of as far as gender goes. I've seen women that appear to be crossdressing guys sometimes. I've also seen attractive 6 foot tall women that could have been men, but the hands weren't man hands.

Masculine traits will give us away for those that really look for them. If you're worried about going out dressed and being clocked there are a few things you can do to make it easier. 1, don't go out alone. 2, go to a gay bar. 3, do your best to blend, practice walking and presenting as a woman at home.

[Juanita O]

I agree with the blending in, BUT how many of us have seen female that don't pass.

[Heidi Stevens]

Since its nearly time for the Super Bowl, let's use this analogy: if you know you can't pass or think you can't pass, you can still pick up the ball and learn to run with it! It doesn't stop you from having fun.

[Lily Catherine]

"Passing" is a holy grail, or more accurately an asymptote - much as one may come close one won't reach the "passing mark". If you want to go out just do it anyway.

I still think it would be good to blend (for now, at least) - not by being pretty, but by being inconspicuous. It feels like camouflage to me though, what with the idea of cover and concealment. I leave it an open question as to whether a sniper would rather be mistaken for vegetation, however.

I am with Lorileah in using the term "presentable" rather than passable. I notice how "passable" also runs hand in hand with some preconceived notion of beauty. I don't think one has to be attractive to be passable or vice versa.

[Aunt Kelly]

Like many of us here, before going out I put way more into my "look" preparing for a(n) outing. I don't mean over-the-top makeup or wardrobe, and I don't mean all the extra steps required to hide the obvious physical differences. I simply mean that I want to look as good as I can. I certainly don't "pass", but no one can look at me and say that I didn't try. Given what I have to work with, I will always look good.

[Stephanie47]

Whether it is a good or bad idea to venture forth among the world masses is totally within the concept of "risk vs reward." What do you get out of wearing women's clothing in public and being recognized as a man? I wear women's clothing on occasion as an escape from the stresses of my male world. I can achieve that by emulating a woman all dolled up at home while doing domestic chores: baking, cooking, laundry, ironing, vacuuming, etc, while my still working wife is out of the house for seven plus hours. There is a great potential for that serenity to be broken by glares or comments from disapproving persons. I would follow the advice of many on this site. If you really feel the need to express yourself in a womanly fashion at least once, do it away from where you live.

I have gone out on Halloween with the express intent to encounter the world. It was OK. It was kind checking off something on a "CD bucket list." When my wife was out of town for seven to ten days I have gone out en femme in the evenings for walks. After awhile I felt no different than if I had on my male attire, except my feet hurt from wearing high heels on concrete too long.

[Jenny22]

Tomorrow evening I will be dining with two forum sisters at a nice restaurant. I'll be dressing somewhat younger than my actual age, but I will be well dressed and fem in every way that I can. I want to 'present' well and blend in. That's my goal. I'm going to have a wonderful, fun dinner evening with my sisters, and just be my fem self regardless of what others may see. I can't wait!

[Helen_Highwater]

I was wondering and I have no real objective evidence of this to confirm how passable I am, but do you ladies think its a bad idea to go out if you don't consider yourself passable even when fully dressed and done up?

Jennifer,

Answering your original question regarding being a bad idea to go out if you don't consider you pass I have to say no, it's not a bad idea.

Some years ago I met up with some other CD'ers in a closed social meeting and got chatting to one in particular. I don't want to be unkind but she wouldn't come close to passing. However as we chatted it turned out she was staying overnight in the hotel where we were meeting so that she could go out shopping the next morning. At this point I'd never walked into a shop dressed so I asked if she'd ever encountered any problems or issues. People being rude or abusive etc. She replied never, she just went about her business.

Well that was the catalyst for me to get out there. If she can, I can... It's been the same for me. I don't pass but I think I do a half decent job of blending in. Yep you'll get some who will look at you and you can tell they're not wanting to add you to their Christmas card list but as it's been said soo many times in posts before, most folks are too busy going about their daily lives to take much notice. When I do speak to a muggle I've had nothing but politeness.

If you want to go out and by that I mean it's because it's something you feel the need to do then don't get caught up on the issue of passing. The great majority of replies here have said the same thing. "I don't pass but I dress appropriately and just seek to blend" And yes presentable is another good way to look at it.

[Acastina]

Lorileah's "presentable" gets Best in Show for this thread, which is interesting to say the least. With respect, I object to the comments about our remarkable and elegant first lady; they border on racist stereotyping and have no place here.

Yes, it's good to be brave and not care what they think (or say), but it's also, as some have said, a measure of respect for others to present oneself as carefully and appropriately as possible under the circumstances (both personal and contextual). I've had this conversation with cis friends about the modern epidemic of don't-give-a-bleep slovenliness in public presentation; the slob syndrome, from pre-torn jeans to 3-day stubble as everyday wear. And that's one of the cruel ironies about this topic, that the more carefully and tastefully we put our presentation together, the more likely we are to be noticed. Much as I'd prefer to go out in a nice skirt with hose and a little heel to the grocery store, the vast majority of women there won't be so attentive and I'll stick out. So it's jeans and a casual top and a cardigan and flats and light makeup. Presentable and blendable.

Maybe I'm lucky in the genetic draw in having androgynous features and virtually no facial hair to deal with, but I'm also 6'1"/175#, broad-shouldered, larger-than-medium hands, size 13 women's shoes, moderate male-pattern baldness, so the challenges are certainly there. I'm still really self-conscious about not wearing my little topper hairpiece (mainly for the rear view), but otherwise I'm ready to go.

With regard to actually passing, that is, being taken at face value as a woman, I went to an optical retailer years ago to buy glasses with feminine frames. This was back in my days of inexpensive wigs over shorter hair. A peasant skirt with hose, sleeveless pink top, and I forget which shoes. The SA (a woman of about 30) walked me through the various frames from, you know, about two feet away, for at least half an hour before I decided. The bill was more than the cash I had brought (in hopes of minimizing ID situations), so I just pulled out my debit card and told her I didn't always look like this. She looked at the card and looked back at me, bugged her eyes out, and whispered "You're a GUY?" We ended up having coffee across the parking lot, and she followed up with phone calls and letters, but we were in different cities and I wasn't really interested in a relationship. My point is that it never occurred to her that I wasn't just a large woman.

So it can happen, when you have to tell someone who has had ample opportunity to read you, up close, daylight, face-to-face. Tell yourself that when you're ready to leave the house.

[Suzie Petersen]

Heidi: Since its nearly time for the Super Bowl, let's use this analogy: if you know you can't pass or think you can't pass, you can still pick up the ball and learn to run with it! It doesn't stop you from having fun.

True ... but ... staying with your analogy ... if you dont pass, someone will eventually catch up and knock the wind out of you! So ... you should at least Try to Pass, even if you dont think you are very good at it .. ;)

- Suzie

[elliemoss]

It really is very very difficult to "pass" when out no matter how fem your figure,face may look especially if you are past your early twenties. But of course that's not the point at all. If you have that concern T Girl bars/events are a great place to start. Especially if you can drive or stay within walking distance. It's great for confidence building then once you are used to being out in public and realize it really isn't as big a deal as it is in your head you can mingle with everybody then.

[Amanda22]

I do not pass. I go out. Head up, shoulders back and meeting others eye to eye. I dress for the time, location and event and present as best I can. That is all anyone can do.
Great response.

[Pat]

...do you ladies think its a bad idea to go out if you don't consider yourself passable even when fully dressed and done up?

I think it really depends on your end game -- what's your intention? Are you actually trying to fool people into believing you're a woman? Or are you going out to experience the joy of it and just don't want to cause a scene when you do so? If the latter, you should bear in mind all the comments that point out most of us will not pass but all of us enjoy being out.

I 100% categorically don't pass, but I live my life in a very fem presentation these days. I was just out at Home Depot and had both male and female SA's come up and address me as ma'am. I don't know if I "fooled" them or if they're being polite and I don't really care. I was behaving correctly, being friendly and clearly happy with myself. They were behaving correctly, being friendly and clearly enjoying our interactions. What else matters? Honestly, as long as people "get" that they're not supposed to kill me for existing I'm OK. And if they can open up and allow me to be a positive experience in their day we both win. How many cranky customers do they have to deal with in a day? I think getting someone who is pleasant totally trumps any gender issues they might have. And it's easy for me to be pleasant because I'm happy with myself when I'm presenting female. Small price for them to pay. ;) So, yeah, go out even if you don't pass.

[Lorileah]

Jennifer, I don't agree with no crossdresser passing. I have met some. Maybe the line is "crossdresser"? because I have many TS friends you would never know if they didn't tell you.

[Jenniferathome]

Absolutely limited to cross dressers. TS are NOT cross dressers. Whenever I use the words cross dresser, I mean the part timers who identify as male.

[Lorileah]

Jennifer, I knew that :) Just wanted to be precise

[nikkiwindsor]

You simple go out regardless if that's what you desire to do!

[CarolBrown]

Out and about today I saw someone who was wearing a really good looking and blendable outfit also a pair of knee high boots that made me feel really envious. The only thing that made him not blend was the full beard he also wears.

If you are reading this, all credit to you, you looked really good and feel lucky you still have your boots...

[KristyPa]

When I was 35 20 years ago I went out like twice a week and thought I passed, I didn't. Now I know I don't pass and I'm ok with it.

[sometimes_miss]

I was wondering and I have no real objective evidence of this to confirm how passable I am, but do you ladies think its a bad idea to go out if you don't consider yourself passable even when fully dressed and done up?
For the OP; going out fully dressed and 'done up' as you say, is entirely up to whether you feel you can handle the potential backlash you might experience. As long as you make sure to stay safe, and can disregard any ill spoken words about you, I think you'll be fine. Just remember that you'll then be 'out', with all the potential ramifications that might bring as well.
That said, good luck! Enjoy your time dressed as you wish to be.

[Acastina]

... Honestly, as long as people "get" that they're not supposed to kill me for existing I'm OK. ...

Boy, is that an understated classic! Yes, well, duh.:bonk:

[Teresa]

Jennifer,
I use to ask if I was passable or not but after going out to my first social group meeting a year ago the thought and need fades away. I have had all favourable comments like being called a convincing woman and some have said I'm passable , the point is it really doesn't matter, once you've gone out the door it become irrelevant , try not to act it , I feel comfortable dressed and it makes me happy and that's what carries it off. I don't put on a false voice and don't overdo the feminine movements which isn't possible anyway in some heels.

[mykell]

I agree with the blending in, BUT how many of us have seen female that don't pass.


im conflicted with this one, firstly how does a female not pass as female.
on the other hand how do you know they were indeed female....

[Acastina]

Jennifer,
... I feel comfortable dressed and it makes me happy and that's what carries it off. I don't put on a false voice and don't overdo the feminine movements which isn't possible anyway in some heels.

Not wanting to pick a fight over what may be a stray comment, but voice work is among the most crucial and frequently neglected of going-out skills. I view my two voices as one-real and one-mask. The mask is the one I was pretty much forced to develop as masculine cover. The one I feel is the one I have to remember when I don't need cover.

Few things will destroy a good illusion like a typical male monotone; it can be jarring. It's not easy to find your feminine voice, but it's not an impossible task. There's a threshold of believability that isn't a little-girl voice or something you wouldn't wonder about on the other end of a phone call, but your voice in a different style.

Lots of tips and advice to be had here and all over the Internet, but we overlook it at our peril.

[Becky Blue]

I don't believe passing is a prerequisite to going out.

In my opinion very few people are passable if they are looked at closely. The word I like to use is blending in. If you are wearing age appropriate clothes, venue appropriate clothes and have no obvious male markers like a beard you will most likely blend in. That means that most people will not notice that your anything but a woman.

If you are appropriately dressed then even if your are picked it probably will not matter as most people are respectful. Also remember that there are lots of GG's who have very masculine characteristics. There are GG's with wide shoulders, flat chests, thin hips, deep voices etc,

[Teresa]

Acastina,
I've been going out socially for a year now, our group is a mix of TGs and TSs, not one of us puts on a false voice, to most of us it's not an act ,we are comfortable in how we present ourselves. To continually change your voice is impossible people are going to pick up on that and comment . To take Jen at home's point none of us are going to fool anyone , they all know we are male to some degree , besides not all women have high pitched voices. I don't feel in any peril because I attempt to keep the whole situation as natural as possible.

[Lorileah]

voice work is among the most crucial and frequently neglected of going-out skills.

I make money with my voice, I sing professionally. While the hormones have raised it a slight bit (maybe a 1/3rd) it hasn't moved me into the alto/soprano or even close. I have changed cadence and lilt but I remain in a lower register. Also I have several friends who don't alter their voice except to be softer or change cadence. I also have friends who do go to a falsetto and they sound fake. Personally it outs them faster than their body style. One starts the conversation in falsetto then drops to a medium level (and I think more believable) voice. So what I am saying is, I don't think you need to play the voice card unless you are basso profundo. I have met women with lower registers than mine. Several actresses make fortunes with tenor level voices.

People like Jim Neighbors was the opposite and the girl who was in the top 3 of the voice was also, her smokey contralto/tenor wowed the world. So many here focus on nuances, small tells that will often give you away because you over do them...take them to an obvious extreme. If you can pull off a headtone voice and maintain it without sounding fake, great. But my experience is that most can't

[Vicky_Scot]

I have seen real woman out there who do not pass as a female.....lol. Just go out and enjoy yourself and do the best you can with what you have.

I believe people appreciate someone who tries to pass.

[mykell]

vicky again conflicted, see post #55

[Gabriella111]

Do what makes you happy, so long as you feel safe. Since my guy is just a guy in women's clothing, passing isn't even a goal. Neck down, he could easily pass, but he's got a handsome face and short hair. Still, he looks incredibly cute dressed and, more importantly, it makes him visibly happy. Let them see your joy more than your gender.

[Krisi]

Absolutely limited to cross dressers. TS are NOT cross dressers. Whenever I use the words cross dresser, I mean the part timers who identify as male.

What is the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual except in the mind? It's true that the transsexual may have had body parts added or modified, but these things can't normally be seen when the person is dressed.

As for passing, there is passing and there is "passing". When I was a teenager, my friends and I had old cars. We would judge our cars by how far away you had to be for them to look good. You might have a ten foot car or you might have a thirty foot car.

Passing is the same. A crossdresser might pass walking down the sidewalk to someone driving by in a car but not pass sitting down in a restaurant with bright lighting. A crossdresser might pass in a bar full of drunks but not in Home Depot or the library. And of course, there's no way to know if you passed or not. If someone tells you you passed, you didn't. Your best indication is if you don't get any looks, jeers, etc.

Maury Povich used to have contests on his TV show where "women" would come out and the audience would guess if they were really male or female. They got fooled many times.

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BUT how many of us have seen female that don't pass.

I can't recall ever seeing a female who didn't pass (assuming you mean pass as a female). I did have one encounter with a person in a business where I couldn't tell if it was male or female. That is one time in many, many years. FDR was president when I was born.

[Acastina]

Teresa, that whole matrix of things we lump together into the concept of passing doesn't have a lot of relevance within TG social/support groups; you all already know about each other. My point was that, out among the general public, a typical male voice might as well be a flashing red light over your head, and it truly is difficult to alter the way we speak. Many people, for example, are surprised (and sometimes dismayed) by how they sound when they hear a recording of themselves. As males, we are (sometimes brutally as we're growing up) conditioned to strip emotion from our voices, unless the emotion is something like anger or cheering for one's team or singing, and that flat-affect delivery is uncommon among females, so it's a tell.

I'm thinking of a TG musician who frequented our open mic events for a period of months. Her appearance was everyday passable, very good, in fact. But she made zero effort with her voice, so everyone knew she was TG. Not that it mattered. Everyone liked her because she was polite and friendly and so forth. Her musical talents were mediocre, in part because she sang like a guy, not even like an androgynous person, let alone anything like even a husky-voiced female vocalist. We don't judge the mediocre harshly, so the whole gang of regulars was fine with her. I'm just saying that in her case it was a glaring tell on something she was otherwise doing very well with publicly. If she's comfortable with that, I'm fine, but it may well cause issues in certain circumstances.

And I take issue with two words: "false" and "fool". I think they degrade what's going on. Is a mother's scolding voice "false" while her nurturing tone is true? I developed a second tone of voice, which includes intonation, accent, inflection, gestures, and the conscious incorporation of freer expression of emotion, to set my presentation apart from my cover-mask male persona. You live 24/7 as a female for most of a decade, you get a lot of chances to practice, and you pick up a lot of cues when it's not getting the job done. And I don't see passing/blending as "fooling" anyone, It's persuasion, tipping the balance of perception in the direction we want to achieve. "Fooling" connotes deception, fraudulence, and that cheapens our sincerity needlessly.

It's a LOT easier to put on a good physical look with clothes and accessories and makeup and hair, to be a Krisi's twenty-foot woman (nice concept, Krisi; I've had a couple of cars that I'd cleaned up to where I felt they looked pretty good from across the street...), than it is to develop a presentation that is believable enough for everyday use in the real world. We can't change our basic physiological basis of pitch, but, within our comfortable vocal ranges, we can craft a more believable tone of voice. It's hard, because it's something most cis-people never give a thought to, and if anyone doesn't feel it's important or necessary, absolutely not my problem. To me, it's important, and an accomplishment I'm proud of. The OP was about passability.

Lorileah, I've never heard of HRT actually raising pitch at all. When you say a third, do you mean a third of an octave (singer-speak...), and does that mean your useful range shifted upward? I knew one TG whose trachea shave was apparently overdone and deprived her of a lot of her vocal ability; she was really bummed by it. I also understand that efforts to surgically tighten the vocal cords generally fail to accomplish the desired result, and at best yield an unnatural Minnie Mouse tone. The FtM guys get lower pitch from their T, but E does nothing to raise ours, and FtMs who are singers have reported serious degradation of their tone.

My range is basically low tenor, although I can go deep if needed, and I have a strong, clear falsetto when I want that, but I'd never try to speak in falsetto. I agree, that would be "fake". But, as you correctly say, we can change "cadence and lilt", and that's my point.

[Cheryl T]

I've always believed that it's not about "passing" so much as "presenting".
Very few of us have the bone structure and other characteristics that would make us indistinguishable from a genetic woman to the majority of people we encounter.

When I go out I know that many will not see me as passing, but the way I "present" myself to the public I feel is more important. I display myself as a woman, dress appropriately for where I'm going, carry myself with dignity and "own it". By that I mean that I am confident that I belong there as much as anyone else and if I am seen as other that female then so be it. I don't try to hide or be a wall flower. I am confident in who I am and where I am. I feel that that is accepted by most and is more important to them than the fact that they recognize I am not female.

[Ressie]

I've met a couple of crossdressers with natural speaking voices that could pass as female or male. Practicing (or not) the art of speaking like a woman is a personal choice. I would probably develop a more girly drawl if I dressed 24/7, but I haven't done much dressing in public at all.

It would be interesting to hear audio clips of those using a female voice wouldn't it?

[Helen_Highwater]

I posted last year that while out a young GG saw me sitting in the car dressed, came over and told me "You look amazin'". Well by deduction I can't be that "amazin'" as I was read. I guess what I do is not draw the attention of the casual observer. My "presentation", (this is a word that's going to gain momentum here) is such that (I think) I blend into a crowd. That is all that all but the very blessed can hope and expect to achieve. The trick for anyone teetering on the edge of going out is to realise that being read is not the show stopper you think it is.

As for voice. A couple of years ago I sat and chatted to a GG who was a voice coach. She told me the very worst thing to do is talk falsetto. Sing the note doh at your natural pitch. Go up to Ray or Me. Somewhere around there is what you aim for but speak in a softer tone. It's not so far from your natural voice that you're straining and if you do fall back the change isn't so noticeable. It's also very easy to practice.

[Acastina]

A "do-re-mi" drill is probably a very useful exercise in raising one's speaking pitch within the natural range. It will sound different to your own ears but not be unnaturally out of your own pipes' sound capacity. That's one of the ways I monitor my second voice; can I hear the difference?

[Jaymees22]

I consider myself as a plausible woman, I could be a woman just don't look too close. As far as my voice goes I have recorded my own voice, I sound like Mr. Rodgers, close enough.

[Helen_Highwater]

Jaymee,

"I consider myself as a plausible woman". I like the term "Plausible". Perhaps the definition of "Blending" should be "Plausible Presentation". Works for me!

[Judith96a]

This is one of those occasions when I want a 'like' button, rather than having to type a few lines just to say that I agree entirely with Helen. 'Plausible' is the word, where plausibility increases with distance! At 100yds I'm plausible as a woman; at six inches, not so much!

[Acastina]

Yes, plausible, absolutely. There are seven billion of us, after all, no two alike. All we're trying to do is nudge anyone who stops to ponder which flavor we might be in the desired direction. Plausibly we go.

[docrobbysherry]

To me, "dressing to blend" means "dressing to hide". I can hide at home and dress anyway I like! :heehee:

[Dana44]

It is defiantly presentation. When we are out and about. Act as feminine as you can and people will look at you as female and call you mam. But try to present as well as you can. it works wonders. Also be kind and social.

[suzanne]

OMG. "Presentable" is the word I've been meaning to use! That's exactly how I want to dress for going out in public. In the past, I've been using the word "appropriate", which is close, but not as accurate. Thanks for that.

[Becky Blue]

Presentable and plausible are both great words if one is both one will more than likely blend in. Blending is not hiding for me, it is attempting to just look like one of the other women out and about.

[KimberlyJean]

Whatever you think is making you not "passable" work on it. My first time out was a disaster. I wore a short sleeve t-shirt style top that I liked and have since learned did not flatter my body type at all. As I left the shoe store the SAs actually came to the window to look and laugh. I haven't felt that small in forever. I have since learned to dress for my body type, worked on my voice, and the way I walk and stand. And the biggest part was I lost about 30lbs of muscle. But it is a continual work in progress. I believe I am pretty good at being able to tell when I don't pass and lately I have been doing a lot better. Except for this one dress I have, everytime I wear it I seem to get read. Love the outfit though so I keep wearing it.

[Seana Summer]

im conflicted with this one, firstly how does a female not pass as female.
on the other hand how do you know they were indeed female....

I met a middle age person a few years ago that I assumed was a man. Relatively deep voice, rough around the edges from physical labor and too much sun exposure from working outside. It was not until several months later my S.O., who has know this person all her life, told me Pat was in fact a she. The deep voice came from smoking and she, while physically fit, just did not take care of herself very well.

It can happen

To answer the original post(if I can remember now what that was). I am very selective about where and when I go out dressed. I do not have a snowballs chance in you know where of passing myself off as female. At 6'2" with broad shoulders blending in dressed is difficult, I even stand out as a guy in many crowds when I am in full guy mode. I have seen photos of myself in a crowd and I seem to stand out as the large fellow towering above those around me. I guess I need to find out where NBA and NFL players hang out so I can look physically smaller

[raxdress]

And the biggest part was I lost about 30lbs of muscle.

Damn! Was that hard to give up? Every time I dress I look at the triceps of my 14.5 inch arms and say, "I have to stop working out my arms. I look like a female crossfit competitor with a male head transplant." But then when I go into man mode the mind changes. Man mode says, "Are you seriously willing to let your arms wither and die to 12 inches or less just for this?"

[Abbey11]

For me I'd go with presentable, for daytime outings I dress to blend, for evening I'll glam it up and vary my look.

[Judith96a]

Where I come from, "presentable" means clean and tidy, hair done, dressed appropriately for the occasion - in short, fit to be seen by whoever may see you wherever your going! See also "fit to be let out (of the house)". For instance, I frequently ask my wife, "Am I presentable?", before heading out to work.
So, for me, "presentable" doesn't suggest success in emulating a woman in the way that "plausible" does.

[HollyGreene]

I don't think I'm passable, but I have had some good days when it all seemed to go right - clothes, make-up, wig etc, and have walked past numerous people who didn't bat an eyelid.
One thing I do know is that when I am fully dressed with make-up and wig, I am not recognisable as myself as a man. SO, if I go out and people spot that I am a man, (or have one of those "is she, isn't she?" moments), it doesn't matter that much because nobody will recognise me.
I live in an area where there are a fair number of transgender people, so it's not unusual to see somebody dressed as a woman who might not be genetically a woman. So, I think for me, it's a lot easier because the general public are getting quite used to it.

Loving winter though, because I can wear thick tights, a big coat, hat. gloves and scarf, which cover a whole host of things that might normally give me away. Especially the gloves.

[KimberlyJean]

Rax, at my heaviest I weighed in at 265lbs. I had already lost some of that weight prior to my first outing. Right now I still weigh in between 210-220, so still not small. I want to get to 200lbs by the end of this year. The biggest thing that keeps me going out is the fact that I see women bigger than me all the time and long sleeve tops are a must.

[Aunt Kelly]

Rax, at my heaviest I weighed in at 265lbs. I had already lost some of that weight prior to my first outing. Right now I still weigh in between 210-220, so still not small. I want to get to 200lbs by the end of this year. The biggest thing that keeps me going out is the fact that I see women bigger than me all the time and long sleeve tops are a must.
Good for you, Kimberly. Hitting your goal looks like a sure thing, so keep up whatever you are doing. I just recently committed to a serious weight loss regimen and I know what a slog it was for you so, again, well done!

Hugs,


Kelly

[mykell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JeFPVhSLo

[Scarlett398]

Mikell, thanks so much for sharing Brooke's video with us. She is very pretty and very informative. To bottom line it, we have to just be completely happy with ourselves. I am so glad I now have approval to cross dress from my loving wife. Even having to hide my cross dressing for years, I was always happy with myself and my desire to dress up as a beautiful girl. I now am so happy and relieved that my wife finally is accepting of my cross dressing. I feel so free and relieved and don't ever have to worry about hearing that garage door open an hour or two or three before it's her usual time to arrive home from work. We are both very happy and accepting fully now of who we completely are as a loving couple and two loving individuals. I hope those who are in the closet are able to come out soon and be accepted by their wife or significant other. Thanks again for sharing Brooke's video. You can tell she is happy with who she is and so are all of her friends....Hugs to you for the video...Scarlett

[Nikki.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JeFPVhSLo

Well that's easy for her to say ;)

[Scarlett398]

The only thing, while out in public, that would give me away is my voice and when I do eventually go somewhere where I have to interact with another girl in the mall, the movie theater, or a restaurant, I have no plans on attempting to change my voice at all. I am proud of who I am just like I am.
I am blessed to have been born with the body and the face that allows me to be seen as a man or a girl. I am 5' 10" tall and always weigh between 165 and 175. For some reason, I have the curves of a girl as you can see from the photos I post. Now I don't have breasts so I had to purchase those of which I have the foam ones with no nipples and the gel ones that look just like original gorgeous female breasts. I wear a 38 C bra size that has a perfect fit depending on the brand I like to buy.
When I was a young boy and even a teenager, many of my guys I played sports with had parents who told me on numerous occasions I was too pretty to be a boy. I just always smiled and took that as a compliment. I didn't know that one day I would want to dress up from head to toe as a pretty girl and have a lot of fun doing it.
In the near future, I will have more opportunities to go out to the above mentioned places and will eventually go and interact first with some girls who I think, based on where they work - like Sally's Beauty Supply or girl's clothing shops or departments in the mall - I'll have no reservations of using my natural voice and talking to them with no sense of not belonging or feeling out of place.
Well, that's it for know and thanks for reading my post...Sincerely Scarlett

[raxdress]

Rax, at my heaviest I weighed in at 265lbs. I had already lost some of that weight prior to my first outing. Right now I still weigh in between 210-220, so still not small. I want to get to 200lbs by the end of this year. The biggest thing that keeps me going out is the fact that I see women bigger than me all the time and long sleeve tops are a must.

Nice! Keep it up and maybe drop another 50 lbs! 200 is too conservative a goal for a whole year!

[irene9999]

I'm definitely "presentable" and try to blend in the crowd as I find most people are not even looking at you. I think at nighttime I've fooled some people though (was called miss a couple of times on my last night out lol) but during daytime it's very obvious I'm not passable so I just try to dress well