Psych's Opinion

[deebra]

Psychologist & psychiatrist are suppose to know more about human behavior or what makes us tick or why we are the same but each is different than anybody else; Lord knows they have spent enough time and money in schools learning about our two legged species. So what do they really know about male to female crossdressers? Are they a "normal" part of our society and just a small minority, as the old one's die off new one's are born, just like roaches and ants crossdressing has survived for centuries. Since this is "true" why hasn't society accepted us like they have so many changes in society relevant to human dress and appearance and the many degrees of different tastes that cross over the gender line. If a male likes and wants to wear female clothes this is no different than women being accepted wearing men's clothes.

Any psych's out there, please answer all of the questions above so we (CDers) will know why we put ourselves through what we do to emulate the weaker sex. What I am really asking here is what the psych. community thinks about MtF CDing, is it O.K.; if so why is society dragging their a** on acceptance? And I hope you don't say because we are such a small number, there are other groups that are also small but accepted i.e. the Washington Redskins fans (joke, handle it).

[Jaylyn]

I'd be interested in reading the comments if any on this. I'm not a psych but lots of it I would thing is just traditional wear. I wish we'd all go back to the very beginning when male and females were nakkid. Lol then of course the fig leaves came into play, but we'd all have the same type leaf's.

[Stephanie47]

I doubt if you're going to get a response that is acceptable to explain cross dressing, homosexuality, transsexuals. I always chuckled to myself over these issues. If there was some basis for saying these were disorders, then surely there would be some Labor Day telethon to raise money for a cure.

[CONSUELO]

I have wondered for some time whether the amount and type of information available on this site would be of use to someone doing research into cross dressing. I understand the privacy issues etc. but still wonder if this would be a rich vein to mine or if, for various reasons such as incomplete and unsubstantiated information, it would be considered a flawed "data base". I wonder if the monitors have ever been approached. Just a question not a suggestion.

[sweetdreams]

They are doing some interesting research using MRIs and there is some evidence suggesting our brains (transgenders/CDers) are wired more like female than male.

An article from the Huntington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html

This is a link to an article Scientific American published:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Here's another article by the New Scientist:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan

Another article offering some interesting points on how gender identification has a biological basis:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/living/health-family/article76580862.html

I particularly liked the last paragraph from the Charlotte Observer article:

'What gets lost is that society favors conformity, and nature favors diversity,” she said in a phone interview. “What scientists have been able to discover is that gender identity and sexual anatomy is a spectrum. … We can no longer think of transgender people as being some kind of aberration. … We need to think of them as variations.'

Maybe with enough research and time, society will be a little more accepting of us.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

You're basically asking “why“ again. How many times must we tell you new folk that “why“ doesnt matter.

What truly matters is how you deal with it. Asking why is a distraction from doing that and a waste of time.

Veronica

[TinaMc]

I think generally psychiatrists and psychologists are interested in actual mental health disorders, not atypical clothes choices.

[ronda]

Veronica sometimes knowing why helps you except it. you know you were born this way then you know you are just being yourself

[Julie MA]

I would venture to assume that everyone, including those that no longer do, have wanted to know why. Nothing wrong with being new, or trying to understand ourselves.

[Marianne S]

I wish we'd all go back to the very beginning when male and females were nakkid. Lol then of course the fig leaves came into play, but we'd all have the same type leaf's.

But human nature doesn't change... and neither do the frequent instances of variation on human nature!

Back when we were all wearing fig leaves, you can bet your high-heeled boots that Eve especially was wearing more than that, given the feminine predilection for adornment and for delicacy--even if it was just a flower in her hair, or trimming the edges of her fig leaf into a lace as intricate as the edges of a satin slip. Despite their common origin from the branches of a fig tree, I'll bet Adam's and Eve's fig leaves, by the time they were being worn, ended up looking as different from one another as a a pair of boxers or Jockey shorts do from a pair of bikini panties. We only have to notice how even the most primitive tribes have different fashions for men and for women, however unlike our own, like the neck rings some African women traditionally wear.

I've no doubt Adam was doing the same from a masculine perspective, with symbolic meanings of its own: a necklace of teeth perhaps, or the bones of enemies vanquished in war, and a belt of twisted animal skin with a flint knife tucked into it: "Me Mack the Knife. Me Big Bold Hunter" or "Big Bad Warrior." But here and there, one of those "Mack" or "Adam" guys would be tucking a flower into his own hair on impulse or in secret. And in his mind he would be "crossdressing" just like us--just as that famous feather was "the latest Italian fashion" in the mind of a very different man:

Yankee Doodle went to town
Riding on a pony
Stuck a feather in his cap
And called it 'macaroni'...

[NicoleScott]

I often get asked a tax question when people learn that I work as an accountant. I'm not a CPA (but I can be a Constant Pain in the Ass), and tax is not my specialty. I wouldn't expect every shrink to be an expert in gender identity/presentation matters.
Marianne, I saw a show on TV about those neck rings. It turns out that the neck isn't really stretched, but rather the collar bones are pushed down, giving the appearance of a longer neck, supposedly to be more attractive to men. Doesn't work for me, but then I'm not a member of that tribe. They might think high heels are stupid.

[Swimtran]

How many people here have sought professional psych advice about crossdressing?

I went twice, at the insistence of my wife, who was looking to have me "cured". The first listened, then helped me find a sex therapist because she didn't feel confident that she could help. The second, a certified sex therapist, assured me that it's not even considered a disease or problem! Since I had already accepted it myself, she saw no point in continuing to see me.

She described it as a fairly common kink (in my case, anyway.) It doesn't hurt anybody. And giving it up is as futile as giving up your favorite food.

As for acceptance, that's outside the domain of psychiatry, I think.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Deebra:hugs:, I always thought that when it comes to Psych's and therapists that there two kinds,

One tells you what you want to hear,

And the other one tells your wife what she wants to hear...:daydreaming:...

[Ineke Vashon]

it's our "culture". In early native communities we'd be honored and given special favors and duties.



....why we put ourselves through what we do to emulate the weaker sex.

Weaker sex?? That moniker is long gone.

Ineke

[Gabriella111]

The fact that you refer to females as "the weaker sex" partially answers your own question. Historically, women have been marginalized and devalued. That a man would want to drop down to that level of lesser privilege makes him weak in the eyes of those who view women as less than men. So that's part of the problem.

There's also the problem of society viewing gender as binary and the burdensome roles assigned to each gender. It isn't binary, and these roles are not always useful.

Intellectually weak people also tend to fear what they don't understand. Suddenly someone as innocuous as a man in a dress is considered a threat. A threat how? Same way gay marriage is somehow a threat to "traditional" marriage... it's different.

And I'm not a psychologist, but I do have a degree in psychology. All depends on one's area of focus/research as far as their expertise. I was focused on a specific type of PTS(D), but I never went for a doctorate.

[Zooey]

To several people here... If I were you, I would be VERY careful about trying to apply research done on transexual women to crossdressers.


The fact that you refer to females as "the weaker sex" partially answers your own question. Historically, women have been marginalized and devalued. That a man would want to drop down to that level of lesser privilege makes him weak in the eyes of those who view women as less than men. So that's part of the problem.

This. This is also one reason why there is often friction between CDs/fluid-expressing people and women (cis and trans). You claim/appropriate all of the "fun" stuff, including (in some cases) the identity of woman, without actually giving up any of your privilege and power. It's like white college kids wearing dreadlocks and claiming to be rastafari.

[sweetdreams]

Not sure I agree. How finely are we going to split the hair?


To several people here... If I were you, I would be VERY careful about trying to apply research done on transexual women to crossdressers.

This. This is also one reason why there is often friction between CDs/fluid-expressing people and women (cis and trans). You claim/appropriate all of the "fun" stuff, including (in some cases) the identity of woman, without actually giving up any of your privilege and power. It's like white college kids wearing dreadlocks and claiming to be rastafari.

The research is suggesting gender identification is a spectrum. If you put cis females on one end and cis males on the other, the middle is where the trans community fits. If we CDers are not in the middle, and we aren't at either end, where are we. Not sure transgender women and men can claim that whole middle as their private territory simply because they chose to transition and we haven't. Really, don't we all have enough challenges dealing with social pressures without turning on each other. How petty can we get.

Most of us have come to this at very early ages (5 and under). I think it was around 80% arrived here prior to 13 years old. Are you suggesting that if you a trans women maybe your brain is wired differently but for CDers this can't be true?

You pretty much leave us no other option than to be freaks.

It might be more of a case of white kids hanging out and claiming to be Irish or English or Canadian or American.

[Tracii G]

I think some here need to just deal with things and stop complaining.
The comment about women wearing whatever clothes they want and men not being able to wear womens clothes has just gotten so tiring.
We have answered that so many times here but some don't seem to be listening.
All this bitching and moaning needs to stop savvy? If you aren't happy then change the way you live your life and live the way you want to.
Hard to believe some men are such cry babies.

[arbon]

Are you suggesting that if you a trans women maybe your brain is wired differently but for CDers this can't be true?
.

If your wired as a woman and know it why in the world would you live as a man?

[sweetdreams]

It's not that black and white which is why some transition and others don't. Again the suggestion is a spectrum.

It's possible that you could be wired to be more open to the feminine side (this seems pretty obvious for almost all of us), but does not mean you absolutely have to transition.

I think there's a pretty good chance we aren't wired pure cis male. If there is a spectrum with cis female on the far left and cis male on the right, we are shifted to the left. There's something in our brains moving us in this direction, after all the brain is responsible for all of our behavior. If there wasn't something different we would all be cis males and not even having this discussion.

[Zooey]

The research is suggesting gender identification is a spectrum. If you put cis females on one end and cis males on the other, the middle is where the trans community fits. If we CDers are not in the middle, and we aren't at either end, where are we. Not sure transgender women and men can claim that whole middle as their private territory simply because they chose to transition and we haven't. Really, don't we all have enough challenges dealing with social pressures without turning on each other. How petty can we get.

The research that was linked suggests two things:


There is some biological evidence that shows transexual brains share certain similarities with the brains of their target sex
There is some biological evidence for the distinction between gender and sexual orientation

Even the Charlotte Observer article, which is the softest of all and the only one to address a gender identity spectrum, focuses on transsexuals suffering from gender dysphoria when discussing biological bases for any of this stuff.


Most of us have come to this at very early ages (5 and under). I think it was around 80% arrived here prior to 13 years old. Are you suggesting that if you a trans women maybe your brain is wired differently but for CDers this can't be true?

Regardless of my opinions on that, I'm saying the studies linked don't point to that yet. They're done on transexuals, and actual crossdressers are by definition not transexual. No good comes from applying science in ways that it doesn't support. If you want to do science on crossdressers, fund a study.


You pretty much leave us no other option than to be freaks.

Whether you're considered a freak or not is a sociological issue, not a biological one. If more of you step out of the closet and normalize yourselves, you might actually make some progress on it. Why are you using transexuals to validate your situation? Find your own validation.

[sweetdreams]

So I guess it's not our brains doing this. It's something else......

[Zooey]

I have no doubt your brains are involved. In many cases, both the big one and the little one.

What I do doubt, however, is whether the mechanism of the brain's involvement in the case of CDs has anything to do with what's going on in TS brains. I might be wrong. For the moment though, the research that has shown evidence of biological support for transgender identities has focused (AFAICT) exclusively on transexuals.

[sweetdreams]

I could be wrong also and even the research is fairly new.

It sounds like you are trying to defend some piece of turf you call your own.

[Zooey]

It sounds like you are trying to defend some piece of turf you call your own.

You can look at it that way, just like I can look at it as CDs trying to appropriate transexual people's realities in order to validate themselves so the less comfortable/confident among you don't have to feel like - as you put it - "freaks"; trying to take studies on us and use them as an excuse (a not-so-metaphorical doctor's note).

That's not my point though.

My only point here is that it's never a good idea to apply data in a way that it doesn't actually support. Again, if you want to have evidence for what drives crossdressers, fund some scientific studies on crossdressers.

[Mirya]

What I am really asking here is what the psych. community thinks about MtF CDing, is it O.K.; if so why is society dragging their a** on acceptance? And I hope you don't say because we are such a small number, there are other groups that are also small but accepted i.e. the Washington Redskins fans (joke, handle it).

The 'psych community' believes CDing is ok. Swimtran's post earlier in this thread said that she went to a therapist who said it's not a problem. And I agree; it's not a disorder.

As for societal acceptance? I'm sure that there are a lot more CDs than TS women. Yet how often do you see CDs organizing and advocating and speaking out for acceptance? How often do you see CDs being out and open? You all outnumber us by a huge margin, yet you don't do anything to increase visibility or awareness. I'm not saying you have to go do a live television interview, but do you even tell your friends about your CDing? Or do you hide in the shadows, not even telling your wives about something that is so important to you?

I'm sure there are a few who do, but the vast majority of CDs are in the closet. Until CDs come out and increase their visibility and advocate for acceptance, things won't change. If CDing is an important part of who you are, then prove it! Be proud of it, own it, and be open about it. Yes, it will require sacrifice - every marginalized group has had to suffer blood and tears to earn acceptance. It doesn't come for free, and it doesn't come on the backs of transsexuals. CDs will need to earn it themselves - and they can - if they try.

[Tracii G]

I agree Mirya.
I look at it this way if you don't stand up and contribute you are part of the problem.
Get out be seen and own who you are, if you chose not to then don't complain that you get no acceptance.

[Gabriella111]

The research is suggesting gender identification is a spectrum.

I think this point is getting lost. Zooey is totally correct that research findings shouldn't be applied in ways the research doesn't support. This bit, however, isn't necessarily exclusive to the transgender community. If gender identification is on a spectrum, that applies to everyone. And it really just supports the anecdotal and experiential knowledge everyone here already had.

[Ressie]

I don't think you need opinions from the psych community to understand your questions. Even if all the shrinks agreed that crossdressing is normal, most of the general public wouldn't decide to accept it. But all psycholgists aren't gonna be in agreement about it anyway. The nature of man is more of a philosophy than a science. And there's plenty of evidence that humans aren't all that civil in the first place. Hoping for acceptance is fine, but expecting complete acceptance from society will only leave you frustrated and unhappy.

[Suzie Petersen]

Deebra: just like roaches and ants crossdressing has survived for centuries

And the stores have a lot of poisons for sale to get rid of the roaches and ants!
I guess we are lucky they have not come up with a "Raid for CD's" yet ;)

Anyway, my 2 cents on your question is that crossdressing, in the general populations eye, is associated with behaviors that most find despicable!
For every published story about a normal functioning CD person, there are 100 stories available on the internet of men dressed as women for various sexual reasons. The general population is afraid of people like that and feel they have to protect themselves and their children from that kind of people and behavior.

With regard to the "normal" CD'ers who just want to live a normal life, I think people have a much easier time accepting a TS person who once and for all changes from one gender to the other, because that person stays within most peoples accepted gender norms, just correcting an initial mistake.
The CD on the other hand creates confusion by not staying within the accepted boxes and people are confused by the motivation for that behavior.

It comes down to the classic advice offered on this forum: "Act normal and people will accept you!". The transitioned TS eventually ends up acting normal, but the CD rarely does.

- Suzie

[PretzelGirl]

I think one of the points lost a few messages back about gender being a spectrum. There are arguments on whether a spectrum is true or not, but lets roll with it. So one end is male and the other is female (the fallacy is calling the ends cis). I am a woman and whether I am trans or cis is only a point that can be used for discrimination. Next, gender has nothing to do with clothing, it is an innate sense of identity. I am wearing jeans and a sweater right now. I could be naked and I am still a woman. So now let's define a crossdresser. A CD is a person who wears clothing of the opposite gender. No where in there is having the sense of being the other gender mentioned. So a CD, by definition, is a guy (in the case of most here who wear women's clothes). To be on the supposed spectrum and not at the end point, you have to have a sense of identity aligned with the other gender. If you say you are a man, then you are a man, cis or trans (as in transmen).

[jessi]

Psychologist & psychiatrist are suppose to know more about human behavior or what makes us tick or why we are the same but each is different than anybody else; Lord knows they have spent enough time and money in schools learning about our two legged species.

Despite the training in both in academia and a clinical setting, psychiatrists and psychologists are still human.

Their perspective is informed by their own experiences, biases, and psychological and spiritual struggles.

Their perspective is influenced by cultural preferences and biases as well.

To give you an example, let's say that two different patients go to psychiatrists with the same background and training.

Patient A was born to affluent, politically very liberal parents, grew up in Park Slope, Brooklyn, went to Princeton for undergrad and Yale for graduate school, and works on Wall Street.

Patient B grew up in Secaucus, New Jersey, went to Rutgers but didn't finish, parents were politically conservative as is the patient, and he works as a master plumber (successful in his own right, but not Wall Street-level pay or social status)

Both are confused by their desires to crossdress, by their gender ambiguity. They are looking for answers or at least some perspective.

Would the assumptions and perspective offered by the therapist be different for these two patients? In an ideal world, no, but practically speaking, it is very likely.

[Pat]

To be on the supposed spectrum and not at the end point, you have to have a sense of identity aligned with the other gender.

Not sure what that means. I think by your specifications I am "on the spectrum." I would say I *am* (that is, my sense of identity is) a third gender for which we have no word at present. I am not a man. I am not a woman. I also have some fleshy bits having to do with reproduction but they have no place in a gender discussion. So how do I fit in your model?

[Zooey]

You're on HRT, and transitioning in a sense. To whatever extent there is a spectrum, and whether it's a continuous one or not, I would say you're somewhere on it.

I have mixed feelings on whether gender is actually a spectrum, but I definitely don't believe that dysphoria is on a spectrum of any significance. Either you have it and need treatment, or you don't. Gender expression interests/preferences are not gender identity issues.

[Suzie Petersen]

Zooey: Gender expression interests/preferences are not gender identity issues.

While some here will say that "Gender expression interests/preferences" is not an issue for them at all, I think most CD'ers here will agree that the desire to dress up is an issue for them one way or another.

So if a CD is not experiencing gender identity issues, what would you call those issues instead?

- Suzie

[Zooey]

A variety of things, from sexual fetish, to obsession, to stress related behavior, to play, to I'm sure a whole bunch of other things that might cause a man to find relief or enjoyment in expressing typical cross-sex traits. What discomfort they may have with being a crossdresser is sociological, and most often rooted in stigma and embarrassment.

What's not driving them is a deep-rooted disconnect between their biological sex and their core gender identity, causing them clinically significant distress, and necessitating transition.

[Georgette_USA]

Agreeing with Zooey.

In On-line chat I find those to be a very big part of some. Stopped going to some On-line chat, when they see I am "mature" would be asked for those type of things, and I got tired of doing that.

Have never found a woman that wanted any type of CD fantasies.

[Zooey]

sweetdreams, I apologize if you think that I'm trying to "bitch slap" (ugh) a group of crossdressers. The only point I've been making is that the studies you linked to (along with other previously released studies on the subject) say nothing about a biological basis for crossdressing, or even about a notion of gender identity as a spectrum. The data shows that, for binary transexual people, their brain structure shows certain similarities to the brains of their target sex. In some cases, but not all, they have further focused on medically transitioned transexuals, meaning that the effects of HRT are not separated out (which is problematic in some ways).

You are of course welcome to discuss your feelings all you want. These studies are not about feelings though, they are about science. NOBODY wins when you misinterpret the results of scientific studies. I am not here to "bitch slap" crossdressers. I'm here to say that you're trying to apply data to yourself which is not applicable to you.

The only significant opinions that I've stated are that 1) you are trying to use studies on transexuals to feel validated about your condition, whatever it may be, and 2) that there is often friction between CDs and women (cis and trans) due to the appropriation of the "fun" stuff and (in some cases) the identity of woman (while "dressed") while still claiming to be men and retain that privilege. I gave them in response to things that were said in the thread, and to be clear, I stand by both of them.

[sweetdreams]

The only significant opinions that I've stated are that 1) you are trying to use studies on transexuals to feel validated about YOUR condition, whatever it may be, and 2) that there is often friction between CDs and women (cis and trans) due to the appropriation of the "fun" stuff and the identity of woman while still claiming to be men and retain that privilege. To be clear, I stand by both of those opinions.

I understand what you are saying about 1) but I'm not entirely convinced the direction the studies point in can't be applied to CDers.

I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges. GGs may look at you and say eww. Apparently the TS community wants to look at CDers and say ew. And so the ball rolls along with various groups looking at other groups and rejecting them.

A big point I'm asking is this really the right venue to tell CDers they don't have their thinking right?

[Taylor186]

I had a close CD friend whose signature line, which I liked, was, "support is not always approval." Personally, I learn the most when I can read and/or participate in a vigorous discussion of facts and ideas. Cheerleading is overrated.

I'm a crossdresser, and that's all that I am, and I'm not the least bit offended or put down by Zooey's contributions to this thread. In fact, I agree with her as it applies to my crossdressing journey versus that of a trans woman or transsexual.

[Zooey]

I understand what you are saying about 1) but I'm not entirely convinced the direction the studies point in can't be applied to CDers.

"Direction". You are talking about extrapolation. You hypothesize that the results those studies generated would apply, perhaps proportionally, to CDs. Great. Fund a study to test that hypothesis, but YOU are pointing in that direction, not the data.


I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges. GGs may look at you and say eww. Apparently the TS community wants to look at CDers and say ew. And so the ball rolls along with various groups looking at other groups and rejecting them. A big point I'm asking is this really the right venue to tell CDers they don't have their thinking right?

We both have a different set of challenges. Trans women have a "consistent recognition as women" problem, although we are actually making relatively swift progress on that (believe it or not, at least culturally). In my experience, many/most (though not all) cis women have relatively little difficulty with understanding transexual women, at least in terms of their lives post transition. Crossdressers have an "ability to be gender non-conforming without abuse" problem. That is changing MUCH more slowly, because so many of you are closeted. Our challenges are different, and so are the solutions we need. IMO, when you try to treat two groups with fundamentally different needs as one group, it slows down progress for both. Trans women, by virtue of being the out ones with no choice, are by and large paying the price.

Also, please suggest a better venue for pointing out when CDs are potentially getting something wrong, where discussion can happen afterwards. I am not aware of one.

[sometimes_miss]

why hasn't society accepted us
You've been here for almost 7 years, so I'm assuming that you have had plenty of time to read this forum's multitudinous threads about this topic. Briefly: feminine behavior in males historically has been considered a potential problem, as it could indicate the male would be less likely to hold up his responsibility in the defense of his village/tribe. Like a football line, if one person gives way, it can lead to disaster for the entire group. So feminine males are deemed a waste of food and water for any culture, as we are assumed to not be of any worth. These feelings may be simply passed down culturally, or perhaps even ingrained into us genetically, as females are generally turned off sexually by feminine behavior in males as well, and this is seen in most societies worldwide. While there are exceptions here and there, it's not common enough to overcome the generally accepted feelings that people already have about us.

Feel free to read all the other threads on this. I'll let you search, as the rest of us have already done so.

Personally, this sounds like just another 'why doesn't everyone love me' thread.

[Kate T]

Most TS on this thread, including myself, will have similar thoughts I'm afraid to Zooey, Sue, Arbon and Georgette. I'm probably not quite as strong in my views as some others (I'm too old and been wrong too many times in the past to not acknowledge that there is a distinct possibility I just don't understand something completely) but there is absolutely no doubt that the experiences of TS and CD are worlds apart. Is gender a spectrum? In all likelihood. BUT there is a huge difference between gender identity and social gender expression. At the risk of being rude, one is about an internal identity and the other is about well, just clothes (and makeup and jewellery). A man is a man whether he is wearing a dress or not when his internal attitude is still unapologetically male (really, the "weaker sex" :Angry3:). As Sue mentioned, most self identified CD's strongly identify as "male", it is just that you are happy to express yourself with clothing in certain situations in a manner that is currently perceived by society as feminine. That doesn't mean your internal gender identity is non-male, it means your happy to buck society expectations of gender expression and conformity. Thats not a bad thing, in many ways it is great, what it isn't though is it isn't about identity, who you are when you are alone and naked in bed in the deep of night and no one can see you.

[Jackie7]

Continuing on the line of Zooey and Kate T, and agreeing with Kate186. Excellent discussion, thank you all.

I am not a scientist but I do read widely, I'm socially out to my friends and live more than 50% of my public time as a woman, and I've been in this domain for many many years. From the psychologists I get that we men who crossdress are not insane and are not abnormal, it is just one of the things otherwise-ordinary people do. Ok, as for The Spectrum. I think there are at least five spectrums or spectra, and they are all independent variables, your location on one doesn't say anything about where you are on the others. The spectra are:

1. Biology, anatomy. Your skeleton, genitalia, and endocrine system. You can be born M, F, and intersex, that is, anywhere in between. You can, to a certain extent, medically shift whatever you were born with. Where you are on this dimension can be independently verified, it is an observable historical fact.

2. Culturally shared beliefs, ideologies, myths and taboos. What boys like, what girls like. It is given to you by your own upbringing and cultural context, and you can shape it by your own experiences. You can end up anywhere at all on this axis.

3. Internal sense of self and identity, your own subjective belief and experience. You can be M, you can be F, you can be both, neither, gender queer, androgyne. And whatever it is for you, it is. Nobody else can know or judge.

4. Presentation of self and behavior, call-and-response in social context. I dress en femme and do my best to imitate female gestures and ways of being and relating, I blend (and/or kind people humor me), but I do not pass. It helps to separate your own sense of presentation, from how others receive you -- pink fog is always nearby.

5. Sexual preference, do you like boys, girls, both, neither, whatever. An independent variable, perhaps involved with the other dimensions but not determined. Biolopgically influenced, culturally influenced, colored by personal experience, nonetheless entirely personal and utterly inexplicable.

While we may think of these axes as spectra or dimensions, my friend Michael/Miriam says they are actually lines bent into circles, with (for some of us) the M-F ends sparking but not connecting.

[PretzelGirl]

Not sure what that means. I think by your specifications I am "on the spectrum." I would say I *am* (that is, my sense of identity is) a third gender for which we have no word at present. I am not a man. I am not a woman. I also have some fleshy bits having to do with reproduction but they have no place in a gender discussion. So how do I fit in your model?

Pat, you would fit exactly as you say. It has nothing to do with bits and has nothing to do with gender expression. It has everything to do with gender identity. You expressly state you have an identity that is not man or woman. My point is that if someone has a variation in gender expression, it has no bearing on their gender identity. Being non-binary or transsexual are variations of gender identity. Crossdressing, by itself, is gender expression.

I work with transgender people of all types and crossdressers. Have many friends of all types. I support all. What I do like to do is educate on what the difference really is. Otherwise, it is a detriment to progress as it becomes confusing for the layperson. Heck, it is obviously confusing for the non-layperson, just look at this thread.

[ReineD]

For the moment though, the research that has shown evidence of biological support for transgender identities has focused (AFAICT) exclusively on transexuals.

... and this is because CDers are, for the most part, in the closet. Transsexuals, on the other hand, are known to the medical community because they seek medical intervention. Obviously researchers can only study people who make themselves known.

There has been a limited body of research done on CDers, though, which is referenced throughout the chapter on Crossdressers (Chapter 7) in this textbook, (Counseling LGBTI Clients (http://sk.sagepub.com/books/counseling-lgbti-clients)), for students who become gender counselors. The publisher has made chapter 7 available to read online for free. You can make note of the referenced research as you read along and you can look up the research background articles individually at scholar.google.com.

Don't be put off by the chapter's title. The author notes that even though the CDing starts out as sexually motivated for many CDers, eventually the fetish aspect diminishes and instead individuals feel self-soothed, less stressed, and more comfortable as they crossdress (p. 143).

Counseling LGBTI Clients, chapter 7: https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/47510_ch_7.pdf

[Kate T]

I think that is sort of Zooey's point to an extent, you can't extrapolate from TS data to CD's. It would be like me extrapolating treatment for a cat based on experiences in the dog, yes they are both non human quadruped mammals but there are so many differences that it is basically impossible and you need studies on each species (not that I am saying CD's are a different species!). There are too many known differences between CD and TS such that you essentially have to do the research on the questions all over again.

On the upside there are a mountain of CD's out there so you should have a shed load of data points to actually get something usable from and avoid some of the screw ups that Psychiatry made with TS particularly in the early investigative era (though some of those screw ups persist even today). You just have to get out of the closet :p

[sweetdreams]

I think this point is getting lost. Zooey is totally correct that research findings shouldn't be applied in ways the research doesn't support. This bit, however, isn't necessarily exclusive to the transgender community. If gender identification is on a spectrum, that applies to everyone. And it really just supports the anecdotal and experiential knowledge everyone here already had.

Well said Gabriella and basically the point I was trying to make.

[Becky Blue]

The bottom line is no one actually knows, they do not know why a male wants to dress in woman's clothes, nor do they know why some people are born in the wrong body. The medical and scientific community has theories, but not facts. Perhaps in the future when they know more about our brains they will discover exactly why and today's theories may well prove to be correct or not.

We have placed labels on the various gender types and over history these have changed and will more than likely change further. Psychs and the like are all basing their opinions on their interpretation of the combined knowledge base to date.

[Pat]

2) that there is often friction between CDs and women (cis and trans) due to the appropriation of the "fun" stuff and (in some cases) the identity of woman (while "dressed") while still claiming to be men and retain that privilege.

I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges.

I'd agree that CD's are sometimes in "a similar boat" but CD's always have the option to change boats. If you're going to go see your bank manager, you can choose to drop back to your male role and reap the extra respect lenders give to men. Trans women don't have that option. IF they worry about not being treated well at the bank, they just have to swallow hard and go in there anyway. I think that's where the intensity comes in. ;) Zooey is out there 24/7/365.

[Taylor186]

. . . but CD's always have the option to change boats. If you're going to go see your bank manager, you can choose to drop back to your male role and reap the extra respect lenders give to men.

This totally misses the point of what has been said earlier. And that is that CDs and TSs are wired differently. Male privilege has nothing to do with it. Male privilege doesn't enter my mind as I choose when and where to crossdress. Our culture's general dislike for mtf crossdressing (men wearing women's clothing) does, and this is generally different than and independent from male privilege.

[Beverley Sims]

Trick cyclists of all ranks don' understand murders, child molesters or violent marriage partners either....
This is why they specialise and read up on the topic.

Reading and experience with each case helps them understand and treat the next patient with more wisdom.

Life is an experiment and we are all part of the systems experiment.

Maybe yours will be the successful experiment for next week.

[arbon]

I'm surprised and didn't understand the intensity on item 2). I would have thought we are in a similar boat and share common challenges. GGs may look at you and say eww. Apparently the TS community wants to look at CDers and say ew. And so the ball rolls along with various groups looking at other groups and rejecting them.


The only issue I have with the CD's is when they start saying we are similar, come from the place, in the same boat, share the same issues, etc... which is quite often.

It is pretty basic - CD = men liking to wear womens cloths and some going so far as to try emulating women. But they think of themselves as men

I don't think of myself as a man no matter what I am wearing. I'm not even a very feminine woman but the thing is it does not change how I think of myself. My identity as a woman does not depend on clothing.

The issues of a TS woman are worlds away from the issues of a crossdressing man.

[Sarasometimes]

OP,
CD/gender fluid....none are considered mental illness today to my knowledge.



To several people here... If I were you, I would be VERY careful about trying to apply research done on transexual women to crossdressers.



This. This is also one reason why there is often friction between CDs/fluid-expressing people and women (cis and trans). You claim/appropriate all of the "fun" stuff, including (in some cases) the identity of woman, without actually giving up any of your privilege and power. It's like white college kids wearing dreadlocks and claiming to be rastafari.

Zooey,
You might identify as binary, but not all here are. We should afford you respect and only wish for it in return. A CIS woman could have friction a trans woman since they are not the same. I would disagree with that being valid cause for friction also.

Unless we accept all variations, we should not be disappointed when others do the same to ours.

[Karyn Marie]

Such a fascinating post. I have often thought I was a woman in a past life(s), and that my feelings and desires now, are residual feelings from that past life(s). I have started seeing a therapist through the VA. I believed I was suffering from PTSD do to my former occupation (Police Officer) so she sent me to a second therapist to evaluate me further to determine a course of therapy. We talked about everything that might be causing my issues, to include my love of wearing women's clothing and my bisexuality. We also discussed what I feel like inside and I told her I feel as though I am a female inside. At that point she suggested I consider transitioning. I was so surprised that she was so astute that she knew exactly what I would like to do after just one meeting. I told her about my attraction to men, and my desire to please them, however I told her I am not gay. At that point she made a very interesting statement, "It is not gay, if you feel as though you are a woman on the inside. You are listening to your body, because you ARE female. I know I am female, but was born in the wrong body. I am starting therapy Thursday to start a possible transition, to include surgery. The VA will provide all the counseling, medication, and learning to talk and act feminine. The only thing they won't provide is the SRS, but that too is on the horizon. I will post things as I progress. Hugs to all of my sisters out there. You are all so special to me.
:love:

[ReineD]

The bottom line is no one actually knows, they do not know why a male wants to dress in woman's clothes

There has been some research on this, some of it extensive. It's all in the link I posted in #46. It will take time to read it though but it's worth a read if you're interested.

[Jackie7]

thank you so much ReineD for the link to the textbook, it brought a lot of info into focus for me and the general approach made sense not me too. A good read.
xxx
Jackie

[Kate T]

The reference in post #46 is an interesting read though I would say one thing. There is still some muddying of the waters between CD and TS/TG in the article. A lot of the research papers quoted are fairly controversial and have been poorly interpreted in their application to TG/TS (notably the work by Doctor, Prince, Zucker and Blanchard). In addition many of the studies are quite old now (some pre 1990) and there has been considerable development of psychological understanding of gender expression, identity and sexuality theory since they were published. Is it an interesting assessment of CD behaviour in light of what research has been done in relation to it's reference to sexuality. Yes, possibly. However as per previous statements from Zooey et al please be very cautious about applying the contents as some sort of broad unified field theory of CD/TG/TS/GF.

[Exris]

Im not that interested in a Psych's opinion as we are all different [even in here] and all have different motivations. Some will transition. Some will never. Some will have gay sex when in mode. Some will not. Others might only be interested in dress up... and others will see that as shallow.

A psych cannot make a sweeping statement that will cover all that + the other multitude I didnt spell out.

Long term... looooonnnggggggggg term... Id like us to be accepted in society more than we are today. Perhaps certain people here feel accepted - thats great. You live in a good community. You have good friends.

I dont feel accepted. And Im not even "out". I am not ashamed of what I am. But I am ashamed to reveal it. I have a few potential answers to it - but it all requires societal change. And my political power is not strong enough to drive it. I personally know my own MP - and he would not be interested. It will take generations - but eventually we will get there.

[Bridgette T]

While I am not a therapist, I am actually in graduate school to become one. I will finish my degree this summer. I have been in counseling for years, both about crossdressing and a whole ton of other issues. What I can tell you is that much like every other profession, there are people who have different opinions. I recently worked with a therapist (at my job) who had no issue telling our department that he did not think that any LGBTQ person was normal, and that "they can never really be happy." This is a man who has been a therapist since the early 1990s. On the other hand, my personal therapist believes that crossdressing is no more strange than adult men who collect toy trains or obsess about fantasy football. It is a pastime that we find enjoyable. Personally I look at it as a coping mechanism. It is something from which pleasure is derived that does not hurt anyone else, so long as it is managed properly. For those out there that have seen a counselor and feel like they have not received any help, I would encourage you to shop around. Finding a therapist whose ideals are close to your own is important if personal growth is going to be achieved through the therapeutic process. At least that's my two cents.

[Maria Blackwood]

All I want to do these days is shed my skin like a snake and emerge as something else. That's the best I can explain it.

[Becky Blue]

There has been some research on this, some of it extensive. It's all in the link I posted in #46. It will take time to read it though but it's worth a read if you're interested.

Reine the definition of research is according to Webster (as good as any)

1careful or diligent search

2studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws

3the collecting of information about a particular subject


Research is not facts it is developing theories... You continually fall back on research and studies as if they are proven facts. Lets ignore the Transworld go back 25 years and see how much research they had on food and diet 'facts' and see how wrong they were.

[Leslie Langford]

This has proven to be a most enlightening and fascinating thread to follow, what with the variety of differing and sometimes contradictory opinions expressed here by the various responders - all of them right within their own particular contexts and approaching the discussion from diametrically opposed directions, yet at the same time being unable to reach a consensus on what it really means to be transgender, a crossdresser, intersex, or even transsexual given the intersectionality of - or if you will...the blurred lines separating - these various concepts. A Gordian knot, indeed, to attempt to unravel, and I see many parallels here also in the way Newtonian physicists tried to construct an orderly, easily explained clockwork universe, only see it be supplanted by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle as it applies to quantum physics...a hypothesis that in essence tells us that the more we think we understand fundamental physics, the less we actually know about it. And then there is Schrödinger's elusive cat, looking at all of this with a sly, Cheshire cat-like grin as we try to make sense of it all. And so it is with trying to reconcile even amongst ourselves how the transgender community understands and defines itself...

So, in essence, doesn't this whole discussion boil down to one basic question and intractable conundrum...namely, why have crossdressers and transsexuals been (forcibly?) lumped together under the LGBT banner along with their gay, lesbian, and bi- co-travellers when they are fundamentally far more different than they are alike? Is it mainly due to expediency, and the thought that there is perhaps strength in numbers for us here in facing an otherwise relatively unaccepting - and often hostile - general public? Is this uneasy alliance even sustainable in the long term?

Even the umbrella term "transgender" does us a disservice here. We crossdressers for the most part know which biological sex we are and have no issue with that. It's the "gender" part we struggle with. Transsexuals identify with the opposite sex in a far different way and on a far more fundamental level, and in ways that the average crossdresser can never truly understand. For them, "playing for/with the other team", so to speak, becomes an imperative, whereas for us crossdressers - while some might call it a fetish, an obsession, or even an addiction - we just dabble at it...it doesn't become an all-consuming 24/7/365 reality. Turning their backs on their former lives and becoming their true selves, on the other hand, is the only viable option for many transsexuals short of suicide. And isn't the indiscriminate use of the word "transgender" in popular culture these days when people actually mean "transsexual" just one more contributing factor in muddying the waters here? Surely it's become common knowledge by now that sex and gender are not necessarily the same things.

Isn't it time, then, for the "T" contingent within the current "LGBT family" to spin itself off from the larger group, let us go our separate ways, and leave each faction free to focus fully on its own issues while seeking solutions (including the ultimate Holy Grail of full societal acceptance) in ways that work uniquely for us?

[Zooey]

Leslie, I would argue that actual crossdressers don't really even struggle with gender identity. You struggle with gender expression, which is rather fundamentally different.

I have mixed feelings on the association of T with LGB, as there are plenty of both pros and cons for it (for all involved, though the LGB presently suffer most of the cons to be honest). In the grand scheme of things, I think it's still a net positive, though others disagree.

I have no mixed feelings whatsoever on whether transexuals should be lumped in with crossdressers/drag queens/transvestites/gender non-conforming/gender-fluid/etc. people. We shouldn't. It doesn't make any sense, because we have next to nothing in common.

Plenty of people see it as a negative thing (including some people I count as friends), but I have zero issues whatsoever with being called a transexual separatist. If there was a way for me to secede from the "trans community", I would do it in a heartbeat. Stealth is the closest thing available, and given recent events in the US, I'm seriously considering it as a strategy going forward.

[Maria Blackwood]

It's weird! It's almost like everyone is different! /s I've been out as a B for a long time, took up CD, and am now dealing with an increasing gender issue of some sort. Not sure if I qualify as a T under everyone's definitions or if I'm just N for nuts. Maybe there's not a single phenomena occurring that can be quantized down into a Grand Unified equation of gender. Or a letter. Maybe some day I'll find a place without labels, but I suspect it's Point Nemo.

[Happygirl!]

Great discussion. Love the physics analogies. I identify as a cd. As we try to put things in simple categories in science, we often find its not so simple. Is it a particle or is it a wave, for example? And Zooey, you draw a sharp distinction. But is it really that simple? Maybe this is just a reflection about myself not being sure where I fall in the spectrum.

[Meghan4now]

From the outside world, we appear similar, and depending upon the viewers opinion, a TS is the same as a TG, is the same as a Cd, drag queen or Homosexual. Just varying degrees of delusion!

I think it is difficult, however, as a large portion (not all) of our self image is derived by our experience and our desire to be accepted in general. Thereby some CDS find through discover that they are TS, or that they in fact aren't, but questioned it as a means of resolving confirming self identity and congruence with what they THINK they should be.

And possibly there really is such a thing as non binary.

Now as far as sharing needs, both TS and CD do have a need for the public to be better informed if either want to be treated as they wish. This commonality will continue to bind us together even as we have great differences.

But back to the original point, there is enough disagreement in the "proffesional" community, that care in selection needs to be taken.

[Zooey]

Now as far as sharing needs, both TS and CD do have a need for the public to be better informed if either want to be treated as they wish. This commonality will continue to bind us together even as we have great differences.

Hmm? Muslims have a need for the public to be better informed, just like women, union members, teachers, and a host of other groups. We don't lump all of them together because the information more people need to have is different in every case.

Crossdressers need people to understand that men can wear dresses and shouldn't get beat up over it. Trans women need people to specifically understand that we're women, not crossdressers. In what way is that a meaningful commonality?

[Suzanne F]

On the point of stealth I will disagree with Zooey, I am not going back into a closet. while I may be considered pretty by some I do not pass. I transitioned in place in the middle of work, visibility in the community, recovery community and my son's school friends and parents. Everyone knows what I am. I will wear it proudly and I will not shirk when the topic comes up. I will not be humiliated or separated from society. In that respect I do see a bond in the LGBT community. We all faced humiliation as a means to control who we are. As far as cross dressers and Trans women go yes I see major differences. However, I do see where the public will and does assume we are the same. Again, both groups have faced humiliation in order to drive us into the closet. It strikes me as ironic that what stealth Trans women do is the same as a cross dresser who hides from everyone. I respect anyone's right to be stealth or in the closet but I will not go quietly!
Suzanne

[Zooey]

I love you Suzanne, and I think I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't see how living openly as who you really are 24/7 can possibly be considered "in the closet". All I would be doing is ceasing to acknowledge who/what I never really was, but certainly am not anymore. I don't tell everybody I had a birthmark removed when I was younger either...

[Suzanne F]

I like your analogy of the birthmark removal. I guess in my case it is like having a horrible disfigurement on your face and then having it removed. While no one has to bring it up anymore, everyone knows it was there before. Then let's say there was a movement to discriminate against people with such disfigurement. I could not be silent on that subject to protect my new found status, especially when everyone around me knew how it looked before.
Suzanne

[jentay1367]

while I may be considered pretty by some I do not pass.

I look at the beautiful face in your avatar and wonder, how can that be? I can't see a man anywhere. I'll take you at your word, but I simply can't imagine it.

[PretzelGirl]

Leslie, good to talk to you again!

I agree with a lot you say. A couple of thoughts. Intersex..... I firmly believe that we will find that those that are transgender (have a gender identity issue) will be determined to be intersex because it will be a difference in the brain. We see some links above describing that physical difference, but it isn't generally accepted we are intersex yet. That is probably a matter of time. As it is, I don't think there is a lot of conflating with Intersex and any other identity because the education on Intersex is still in its infancy. When I ask people what they know about Transgender individuals, they show they lack knowledge. When I ask them about Intersex people, they have never heard of it in general. (PS: I am both Transsexual and Intersex).

As far as separating out the "T", there is Ben Franklin's quote "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.". As someone who is actively working in non-profits, I can tell you two things. One is that we need the numbers to keep the fight strong. If we start breaking apart, it is like tying a hand behind your back. Second, a lot of the money that is infused into LGBT organizations will stay with the LGB organizations. I see trans organizations and they are working with a pittance of the income that the LGBT organizations do. It is a numbers game, we are less than 1% of the population and they are so much more. So no matter what we may think our differences are, we need to be together. And here in Utah, I am fortunate and extremely happy that all realize that. Back several years ago while a non-discrimination law was being fought for, the leaders were told that if they left the "T" behind, they might get it through. The leaders said that no one would be left behind and we lost that year. We did win eventually, but if they had left us, the LGB would have gotten theirs and we probably never would have seen the light of day.

[ReineD]

Reine the definition of research ...

Yes, all of that. I know.

And yes, research is theory that is tested and reported on, including the theories that evolved into the microchip and smartphones, medications, and anything that exists in this century that did not in the last one. lol. The idea is, we ask questions, test, report, establish a knowledge base, and build upon it. When the research is replicable, then a full picture begins to emerge. This is why we no longer believe in the rape myth, for example (the idea that women who dress provocatively are asking for it and it is not the rapist's fault if he rapes). Social studies are also a soft science, but there are ways to evolve our understanding and get to deeper truths that can even have an effect on rape laws. The research that forms the basis for this textbook chapter is based on the experience of crossdressers and their families.

How do you think we went from believing that transsexualism was a moral failing or a disease in the last century, to having a standards of care now for people who transition? Research.

In any case, the textbook chapter I posted cites several peer-reviewed and published research that the author draws on to instruct. If you read through it, you will see. They are in parentheses, after the sentence where the author discusses a concept. You'll find the research author name and article publication date. This is done to avoid plagiarism and to show that the author is indeed using peer-reviewed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review) material (and that it is not merely his "opinion"). You'll be able to glean the title of the article from the idea that is presented in the sentence.

When you find a citation, go to "scholar.google.com" and enter the author name in the search bar, with a word from the concept that is discussed. When results pop up, you can check that it is the correct article by the date and if the article title makes sense in context. If you're lucky, the entire article will be in PDF format, and if you read through that, you'll discover how the author conducted his research. If there is no PDF available, you'll be directed to the publisher's website or an academic journal where you can read the abstract. Some of these sites will have a downloadable PDF. Others will ask for payment. Or, you can go to a university library and look up the articles there.

Or, you can simply buy the textbook (used for $31 on Amazon) and look at the full reference list in the back, for full details of all the research cited: title, author, date, journal. The references are on page 259, but google books does not include that page in the preview:

https://books.google.com/books?id=z4rUSsYhcd4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=counseling+lgbtqi+clients&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifjpi1__LRAhXHKyYKHWz_ALMQ6AEIJTAB#v=on epage&q&f=false

Good luck! :)

[Meghan4now]

Zooey,

Because the public confuses us, and there is a common bias against us, the education of the differentiation is shared. No one needs to be taught that crossdressers are not muslims, and union members are not transsexuals (although crossdressing Muslim teachers in the union probably exist). But precisely to the point that you have harpped on ad nauseum, the public does need to be educated to the difference between CDS and Ts. You said it yourself. In this we are bound, because in the public eye we are bound. But if you want to be contrarian, go ahead. Seems to be the marching order of the day.

[Zooey]

Meghan, my response to that is... Show me the crossdressers who are trying to educate the public on that difference, rather than insisting that they should have the same types of access and legal recognitions (as women) that trans women need. I'm choosing my words carefully for forum rules reasons.

To put it incredibly mildly, I haven't seen them. I've seen the public narrative from the trans community continuing to focus on the transexual narrative for sales purposes, while also insisting on incredibly broad legal definitions that serve only to include crossdressers in ways that directly contradict the fact that (by any definition) they are men. I literally cannot tell my cis friends that the trans community is not lobbying for men in dresses having certain kinds of access. I would think that if CDs were sharing the burden of education and exhibiting some empathy for and understanding of women's concerns, they'd be jumping into those discussions and saying "Actually, no thanks. We're the men in dresses, they're women. This is about them."

[ReineD]

the public does need to be educated to the difference between CDS and Ts. You said it yourself. In this we are bound, because in the public eye we are bound.

Why is this necessary? Consider this:

The distant public (the strangers you meet while out and about) only need to learn to respect the presented gender. It doesn’t matter if the person is CD or TS, if they pass or don’t pass, if they are dressed casually or for the office. We have a vast array of ages, physiognomies, socioeconomic backgrounds, among both CDs and TSs, and TSs are all along different points in their physical transition processes anyway. The typical stranger can’t tell whether someone is TS or CD nor should they be asked to figure it out. They don't have the time. They will likely think that everyone is TS anyway (since we see more TSs in the media than CDers), unless these strangers meet someone dressed in fetish garb, but this is pretty rare. And strangers will see this person as a fetish person. And if a TS has had a perfect physical transition and there is no remaining hint that she was born in a male body? Great! Then there is no need for any education.


The close public is comprised of people you know and deal with in your day-to-day life: at work, family, friends, neighbors, etc. And with these people, it is incumbent on the individual to let the people in their life know who they are and how they want to be treated. A woman? Then act like one - transition, don’t switch back and forth, get a name change, work on the voice, do what you need to do to assimilate as a woman. A CD? Great! Let your people know that you enjoy switching back and forth and do it to the extent that you can in your milieu. Tell people that you want to be addressed as he when dressed as a guy and she when dressed as a girl. Bigender, Gender-Variant or Gender-fluid? Same thing. Explain your label and tell people you switch back and forth. Non-Binary or Queer? Find a look that works for you and that encompasses the best in boy and girl looks. Explain your label to the people you know. And enjoy being you all the time. Fetish CDer? Great, but don’t expect to be taken seriously if you go out looking like a little girl or a call-girl. We live in a puritanical society. Find all-inclusive night clubs, or move to the progressive neighborhoods in progressive cities if you want to dress fetish in public.

[Kate T]

Nice response Reine.

[Meghan4now]

Ok, so I am now confused. Do TS what to be differentiated from CDS or not? The general public does not make that distinction. From what I have seen here, it is a really sore point for some TS people, to the point of derision.

When I am out in public, or when I am having a discussion, I DO make it a point to mention the difference. I am not expecting any addition rights or privileges as a CD. There are enough laws that protect me (as if a law could actually do so) from discrimination and violence that I don't see the need for additional measures. Now the rights of TS people to fully change their legal identification and enjoy the privileges of that definition are another matter. I support that, as I support a good number of other initiatives that have no direct benefit to me.

Social acceptance is not law, and there is no accountability. As a CD, I believe that social acceptance for both CDS and TS is similar, because the public does not differentiate. From that perspective we have a shared common goal. A TS woman and a CD can be attacked just as easily. The assailant isn't going to ask questions.

Now if you are saying, "Meghan, because your a CD, your support is not appreciated, go push rope" then I will be silent.

[Kate T]

Issh Meghan. I sort of get where you are coming from and in some senses you are right, because the general public does not differentiate then CD and TS appear to have common goals.

However it is and will become increasingly clear to the public it is absolutely critical that an identification is made between CD and TS. Those "privileges" as you put them aren't privileges, they are necessities. Without them we are worse off than if we continued our lives in our non identified genders. They are essential to enable us to access appropriate health care, safe travel and safe environments. Without those "privileges" we can be refused access to medical services, appropriate safe environments such as womens shelters, or even incarcerated and abused by the state just for being alive.

You are right that a CD and a TS woman can be just as easily attacked. But here's the thing that CD's need to understand because this is possibly the biggest reason why TS harbour resentment towards CD's, particularly those playing dress up in the closet. We are at risk of being attacked / approached inappropriately EVERY SINGLE MINUTE OF OUR LIVES. 24/7/365.

So Meghan if you want to support TS then great, I'm happy to have you covering my back. But you have to support me every moment of every day, dressed up or not, down the bar with your work mates or at home with your family. EVERY MOMENT. You do that and yeah, I'll back you up as you explain to people that hey, I'm not female but I like to express myself in a way that some people think is feminine sometimes.

[Zooey]

Ok, so I am now confused. Do TS what to be differentiated from CDS or not? The general public does not make that distinction. From what I have seen here, it is a really sore point for some TS people, to the point of derision.

There are different opinions on the subject. Here's my question, which I have to phrase carefully for rules reasons. While dressed in public, do you do anything or expect/use certain kinds of access that would effectively require you to be treated "as a woman" from a legal perspective in order to be justified? If not, do you tell people why it's not appropriate for you to do that, as compared to trans women?

If you in effect take those rights for yourself, or fail to explain why you ought not to have them but trans women should, then you are not really doing much to declare or explain that difference in any way of significance. If you say to people, "I am a cross dressing man but I expect/want/need to be treated as a woman legally while wearing certain clothes", then what message are you really sending people about trans women and the differences between us?

[sweetdreams]

You are right that a CD and a TS woman can be just as easily attacked. But here's the thing that CD's need to understand because this is possibly the biggest reason why TS harbour resentment towards CD's, particularly those playing dress up in the closet. We are at risk of being attacked / approached inappropriately EVERY SINGLE MINUTE OF OUR LIVES. 24/7/365.


It's interesting that instead of fostering a bit of a bond based on what we do share (please don't jump on me here - I'm not saying we are the same), that the TS community tends to chastise the CD community that is generally sympathetic and supportive. I don't think many CDers harbor resentment toward the TS community but the opposite can't be said.

[Meghan4now]

Zooey,

We are hijacking the thread, but no, I have no expectation for legal rights specifically applied to women. Thread worthy discussion and we can pm.

Back to the original post?

[Maria Blackwood]

Nice to know I'm resented. That's basically my takeaway from this regardless of whatever reasons are given for the resentment. I'm sorry. I just don't know what anyone wants from me when I don't even know what I am or want.

[Nigella]

...
We are hijacking the thread, ...

True, this has gone way beyond the OP


Back to the original post?

Not without lots of editing to prevent it getting :OT: again, thread done