Feel like I'm failing at life...

[Joan.Meredith]

I feel like I'm falling apart.. :cry::cry::cry: My wife talked with our pastor, and I've been told by him that there is no place in the world for Joan. Also I don't know if my wife will let me dress even androgynous at all, let alone as Joan. I need to find a happy medium, but I don't know if there is one. I feeling desperate right now.

Then she asked me how I felt about her, the other week. I might have said something here? Well, my love has changed into more like a sister. So I'm dealing with the change in her from telling her that. Honestly I want to be with her but not sexual with her. I cant be sexual without help, and then it's just not full filling. Our relationship has changed so much that last two months, it's starting to make my head spin. I'm beginning to understand why my wife has been acting the way she has.

She hardly shares the bed with me any more. Most of the time she gets in bed after I leave :confused:. I go to bed, and she stays up and falls asleep on the couch.

I feel more pain than I have in a while. Was repressing Joan better for me and my family than letting her out? I don't know, I do know that she is out and she is in pain a lot. So is John though. I've got to figure this out, or I feel like I'm going to implode.

It has been a struggle to wear my wedding band the last two days. Only my feminine ring that's the only ring I've got on. I have been wearing both, but after the talk with the pastor, and my wife. I can barely wear it.

We go on vacation to Florida tomorrow night, I know I should be happy. I'm miserable. I just want to crawl into a hole and .. .... I don't know. ... ....

[Elizabeth Ann]

I am really sorry you have to go through this agony. I wish I could say something more comforting, but all I can do is give you a virtual hug. I know many people turn to religious leaders for guidance, but perhaps that can be supplemented with someone more neutral. Most of the professional counseling community these days are safe enough that you could agree to a choice by your wife.

But please don't do anything rash or irreparable. You are not failing at life, despite how it may feel at the moment. Don't give up.
Liz

[Genni]

You are going through some tough times, dear girl. Go enjoy your vacation and keep talking with your wife. Try to be as open and honest with her as you can. I hope you will go see a counselor other than your pastor when you return. It is likely that you are on the road to some big changes in your life and a good therapist would be a huge help as you find your way.

[GretchenM]

Joan,

I'm not a gender therapist, but my sense is that you are experiencing extreme gender dysphoria. Been there, done that, many times. It is very difficult to deal with but it can be brought under control. So, I know what you are talking about and it is extremely difficult for loved ones to understand. They think you have lost all your marbles. That said, there is hope, but it will take action on your part to address it.

First of all, don't force your feelings and desires on your wife. She does not deserve that and you come across as a dictator and not many wives these days will tolerate that for a minute. Assure her that you recognize the problem it is causing for "our marriage." And then go do something about it if you desire to stay married. But never make her feel that all the problems are because she can't accept who you are. In fact, there is a bit of a problem on her side, but only a little bit. DON'T SAY THAT TO HER. The fact is, the problem is with you and the dysphoria you are experiencing. If you are going to insist on anything insist that she trust you to obtain therapy help to deal with your feelings, your dysphoria, and get things under control. Don't tell her she needs to go to therapy too as that is a threat to her and is her choice.

To deal with it, find a gender therapist and go into that experience with a completely open mind and be totally honest with the therapist - don't hold anything back. Without all the information they may not be able to properly help you. But in going to therapy don't have expectations that they will help you to do what you are feeling you would like or want to do. They will first help you to understand what is going on within you and then they will help you find a comfort zone. It may be transitioning or it may be just an agreement. Furthermore, during therapy your feelings may change as you come to understand what is going on. You are gender variant, that is for sure, but what kind? No way to tell as the dysphoria has fogged up the view. At some point your wife may be invited in for a discussion and it may be a session or two or more just for her and the therapist. That may lead to joint sessions.

But the first mission is to get you stable with respect to the dysphoria you are experiencing. That is common among people like us, but it is not normal because it has terrible effects on our day to day lives or with our relationships. Anything that does that - addiction, gender dysphoria, depression, etc. - is not normal and needs correction. If you don't know which way to turn but feel you need help then seek the help. It is really, really hard to Think your way out of this because the dysphoria itself has muddled your thinking and is acting as a block, even if only a partial block, to your figuring it out and self correcting your feelings.

I feel very badly this has happened to you; it is a story that is all too common. But there is hope. To bring the hope to a realization you must act and act quickly before things get worse. I was like you 4 years ago and my wife was terrified. Today we have a good relationship. Is it ideal? Is what I wanted? No, but we are still very much in love and share a great deal, just not Gretchen. My wife went to therapy as well as me. But it was mostly my responsibility to find the path to a comfortable compromise. Didn't take long, but without it we would have given up on 44 years of marriage. That was not an option for me or her.

Good luck.

Gretchen

[Julie MA]

Joan, I feel so much for you and this situation. All I can suggest is to decide on your top priorities and make decisions on where to go based on those. Male problem solving talking there. No matter what, it sounds like somethings need to change, and already have begun to. When things have been most difficult for me, I focus on my health, diet, exercise, sleep, etc. This clears my head and helps make the decisions easier. Julie

[Helen Waite]

First thing, find another church. You don't need dogmatic condemnation. Then find an unbiased counselor for counseling.

[alwayshave]

I will second finding another counselor. Bringing religious convictions into counseling is not right. I don't have a problem with someone who has a differing opinion than me about gender, it should just not be someone who is suppose to be helping you emotionally.

[Laura912]

I know at least two pastors who are accepting and understanding of gender issues so a second or third opinion is needed there. You need a counselor who is trained in gender issues. It may require a drive to a larger town to find one. Your sexual dysfunction could well be wrapped up in all the stress with which you are dealing.

[phili]

Joan,
Chiming in here with all the good advice-Social customs and your wife's gender training are a comfort to her, and she is trying to find 'authority' figures like the pastor to tell you to get back in line, so to speak, with her views of safety and 'right' behavior. That makes it really difficult, since your social safety net is of course centered on her as your wife, and,as I tell my wife- 'we promised to love and cherish, honor and protect..."each other. My wife, like yours, is still betting on being angry, dismissive, citing society's conventions as de facto definitions of what is ok, etc. It's lousy, but it is to be expected. I have to keep telling myself that she apparently feel just as certain of her disgust/fear/anger as I am of my happy genderfluidity. How to resolve that in marriage is definitely a counseling process, since trying to have a conversation about it, as I am sure you are finding, is so difficult when your gut instincts are so different.

My main point here is that you are not the problem- social customs and gender biology, etc are complicated and there is lots of variation. When the gender dysphoria time bomb explodes, which it has for you, it is disorienting, but that is because the environment around you is not set up for it. It is like finding yourself in a strange country where you feel you don't fit. The good news is that in a different environment of people you would be totally normal and could state how you feel without fear, so you can live your life normally as your self.

Making the transition to the right environment may seem impossible, but as Gretchen says, time offers us and our loved ones the space to get to know each other differently. I don't want to be a stick figure to my wife, and she has to get over feeling that the stick figure was real and something she bought the rights to.

My two cents:
Breathe, and then smile- you are a real and good person, clearly, AND part of what is normal in this wonderful Creation, AND to be celebrated for what you bring to the table of mankind.

Laugh- because what else are we going to do when trapped in a hall of mirrors and we need help!

Accept that your sister doesn't want to sleep with you right now, let all points of conflict go, as best you can, and concentrate on your actions being steady and truthful and humane.

Go to a good counselor, and after a while ask your wife to go too.

Go to a different church- this is smart because you can find an accepting church, and no one is going to mess with your choice of church! Churches are meant to provide refuge, support, love, and affirm the beauty of Creation.

[junetv]

I think a lot of us have been in your situation in one way or another. Some have ended their marriages while others have worked things out and there are some that seem to able to quit cold turkey.

I agree with someone else who suggested that you find a different church, or at least a different spiritual counselor (although, there are some issues with seeking a counselor that agrees with your side -- from your wife's perspective)

I know how you feel, I've gone through the same things, sexually, sleeping wise, etc... I have thought of different scenerios on how to make myself happy or to end the anguish. For now, we've come to middle ground so to speak. For you, you should at least try and see it from your wife's side and empathize with her, but that is a 2 way street and she needs to try and understand you too.

Life is complicated. The "abundant life" eludes many and was never really promised in the Bible. I pray that you will find peace.

[Suzanne F]

Joan,
This sounds like you are TS. I also think you should see a professional gender therapist. I was asked not to come back to my church when I began transition. It was very painful. I am sorry you are experiencing this but repression is not the answer if you are experiencing gender dysphoria, it will get worse if not faced. I went through transition and am still married even though it has been very difficult. PM me if you need anymore of my story.
Suzanne

[arbon]

You have been hovering around that transition line, talking about hormones and surgeries...

The reality is the closer you get to that the more your life gets disrupted. Everything is affected. It gets hard. It gets real. The life you had gets shredded. It is painful.

Be careful, it only the begining if you keep moving that direction.

[looking_good]

My heart is with you both in this very difficult situation. Others have offered sound advice regarding counseling and support for you, so I am thinking a bit about your wife for a moment. If you have already had these thoughts and ideas, please forgive me.

She is experiencing a major 'change' in her primary relationship. Were I in that place, one of the many things I would feel is a loss of security in my most important relationship. Perhaps giving her back some of the control and security (along with some time to process and cope) could be helpful. Dialogs around 1) This is a part of me that has been difficult to share. Not sharing it before probably seems dishonest, but it is a journey I am on, I am learning as I go, so I have opened up to you now. Not talking about it at this point is probably worse for us. 2) I understand this is not something you expected and probably do not want. Perhaps we can agree to limits and boundaries? 3) There ARE couples who have gone down this path and found peace. Perhaps there is something to learn from their experiences.

This is not my field, nor my innate gift - probably obvious at this point. I would perhaps look down the road and see what might be in this for her? In our case, I find myself a more empathetic partner ( I hope). There is a deeper level of trust now. I've learned I can share anything with her. And of course shopping for clothes with her is now a real delight!

[JeanTG]

I don't think it's a "social acceptance" problem. Joan cannot function sexually with his wife. That is not a social problem Gender identity issues are not a problem if they don't impair social or sexual function and for most of us here that appears to be the case. It's not society that is causing Joan to be unable to fulfill her wife sexually. That suggests that there is a deeper underlying problem. It may be transsexualism, it may be she's more attracted to men than women... we don't know, only a competent therapist can tease that out of her. There are lots of reasons for sexual dysfunction of course, many of them are physical diseases such as prostate cancer or diabetes to name a couple. I think most wives, especially as the couple ages, can find ways to cope with that. But a younger couple as Joan appears to be, and related to gender issues is another matter altogether and I think it's a reasonable expectation for either a man or a woman in the prime of life to have a physical dimension to their marriage. One thing my gender issues have never impaired is the ability to have a normal and fulfilling (for both of us) sexual relationship with my wife. I don't think our marriage would have survived without that. It's tough for a woman to marry a man and find out she's not really married to a man... and it sounds like this may be the case here.

Joan I echo the others here, get counselling. Your pastor probably doesn't fully understand gender issues. He's right in a sense that "Joan" has no place in the marriage because Joan cannot have a conjugal relationship. But he's dead wrong to think that you can wave a magic wand and make Joan go away. Hopefully some balance can be found to make the marriage work... and here I think the spiritual aspect is important, for healing, and a relationship with God, at least for me, has helped me take stock of my situation and realize "it's not all about me". Marriage will always be about compromise whether gender issues are involved or not.

[Acastina]

I agree with Helen, alwayshave, and Laura. A unilateral consultation by the wife with a clergyperson has a low probability of fully exploring and moving toward a resolution of what you're describing, which is a marriage that is becoming dysfunctional. You and your wife need to understand that you're not the first couple to experience this dilemma, and that there are many, many ways of approaching/exploring what is happening within you that are healthy, constructive, and affirming of your commitment to each other. A conservative pastor with a dogmatic worldview is a hand grenade under the tent flap here without a broader discussion and gaining more knowledge about gender variance and how to fit your individual version of it into your family situation.

Ultimatums and sleeping separately seldom resolve anything. You need to find a gender-competent therapist, and soon. I know full well that feeling of a genie being let out of the bottle and feeling overwhelmed by emotions we can't readily control. It's not your fault that it happened to you, but it is up to you to find a way out of the helplessness. Good luck, and Godspeed.

[Dana44]

Joan, Get a therapist and find a new church that will understand you better. Spiritual help is very helpful in the right circumstances. You have a wife. Perhaps your sexual issues are far deep and need to be understood. That is also why you need a counselor. You need to be at peace with yourself. Take care of your health and your spiritual self. Julie is right about that. I have gender dysphoria also, but my SO is acceptable but does not under stand. why i am like I am. But I told her that I don't quite understand here either. So we accept each other lovingly. Oh I wish more women would be understanding of us. But in your case if you want her, treat her well and follow what Gretchen said. Marriage and relationships are important and .Love and protect her as best you can. But if you are going to go the transition route you seriously need to find help. Therapist or Counselor.

[Jodi]

Sorry to hear this. It's a tough time. Whether you want to admit it or not, your marriage is over. Face that fact. Time to prepare for a divorce. This starts with hiring the best lawyer you can now. Tell your lawyer up front about your tg.

People might think I am callous, but I've been through this. She will have a good lawyer, you will also need one.

You can be pillaged into the poorhouse and lose all contact with your children--worst case scenario. I've seen it happen to friends.

Divorce can get really nasty. Remember--Hell hath no fury like that of a woman scorned.

jodi

[IamWren]

First off, I'm so sorry you feel this way Joan. The tone of your post is so melancholic... i just hope you don't do anything rash.

I'm curious what's happened though that had your wife talk to y'all's pastor. I mean just six weeks ago you wrote a post that described how she was keeping a look out for CD and transsexual movies for you two to watch when you both saw The Danish Girl. And you've made it sound that she's rather supportive even ok with you getting FFS and breast augmentation.

I saw in an older post where you said you're attracted to men. Did your wife know this prior to talking to the pastor? And in this post you said your relationship with her has changed in the past two months... how? And why do you think that is? How long has she not been sleeping in bed with you?

There are quite a few more hard questions that could be asked and that you should face that I think are relevant and important to what's happened between you and your wife and to the feelings your having (i.e. wearing your wedding band, not wanting a sexual relationship with your wife, want to stay with her, viewing her as a sibling)

I'm sorry if it seems as though I'm calling you out but honestly, I think you owe to yourself and very much so to your wife to be completely honest about what's driving these feelings.

Thinking of you and yours and keeping you in Light.
Sayyidah

[Tracii G]

I too think you need to see a gender therapist instead of a pastor. Religious dogma doesn't mix well with gender issues.
I'm a religious person but most pastors aren't gender therapists. Pastors have their place yes but not in this case.
I do hope you find an answer to your problems.

[JeanTG]

Well I'm Catholic and both my spiritual director and confessor, from a conservative religious order, have been terrific. They never tried to offer gender therapy. What they have done was listen to me, comfort me when I was in distress, and reassured me of God's mercy. When I spilled all to my elderly 80 y.o. confessor in tears, he simply said that I was made that way, it wasn't my fault (he knows my childhood story), yes I should try to overcome my faults, but not to the point of making everyone else around me miserable. Then reminded me of God's constant mercy and then gave me absolution. No wrath, no sermons. You can imagine, I came out of the confessional walking on clouds! What's remarkable is that my wife had outed me spiritual director. It made no difference to him nor to our relationship. Completely non-judgmental.

I think the spiritual dimension should not be ignored. It's not meant to replace gender therapy, but can complement it and help support you through the rough patches.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Joan:hugs:, I agree with the other ladies that you need to remove yourself from that church...:daydreaming:...

[Heather J]

Sorry to hear about your problems, I can relate to just about all of them, but look at the bright side it could always be worst, you could be unemployed too !... (Going on 6 months for me:D)

[Barbara Jo]

Rule number one......
One must like themselves.:)

if someone does no like you, screw them and do no let them dictate how you feel!

[TrishaTX]

I don't have anything the ladies haven't already said, I just want you to know we all support you.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I think there's a lot of good advise here, starting with Gretchen. Unfortunately, some pastors can be pretty dogmatic. My pastor actually saved my marriage. He is pretty open to LGBT and crossdressing. Rather than condemning me, he actually supported me, which took a lot of wind out of my wife's sails. Maybe your pastor should talk to my pastor.

Also, and I'm not stating this as advice for you, but this is how it worked out for me. I reached the point that if she decided to leave me because of my crossdressing, I would not stop here. The way I put it to myself is that if she made an ultimatum that either the crossdressing had to go or she would go, that she might be surprised with my answer. We have maintained a fragile DADT relationship since then, and I am "allowed" to go out with my CD friends twice a month. I usually do it less than that.

I know that this is the "nuclear" option, and right now we are peacefully existing in "mutually assured destruction". Sorry that I can't give you better advice.

[Julogden]

First thing, find another church. You don't need dogmatic condemnation. Then find an unbiased counselor for counseling.

Exactly. Your pastor is not a proper therapist. He has an agenda, and that agenda doesn't take your well-being into account.

[Aunt Kelly]

I can only echo what Trisha has said. May you find a way through this with as little pain as possible.

[Marianne S]

Joan, I'm very sorry you're going through this right now. I don't have much advice to add to what anyone else has said. Obviously you can't depend on that pastor for the support you need. I don't suppose he's even a trained counselor, and when you're so much in need of validation, he's poison to you. If he seriously told you "there's no place in the world for Joan," he sounds like an ignoramus at best, or a bigot, or possibly both; the two often go together. Whatever else, he must be lacking in empathy at the very least.

You did post a few weeks ago that you were seeing another ("real") counselor. I hope he or she is more gender-friendly than that previous one two years ago. If so, that's the person you need to lean on right now.

Obviously all this is a heavy burden for your wife to handle too, so it's hard for her to give you the kind of support you need. If your relationship with her seemed to take a sudden turn for the worse recently, I get the impression that the triggering event may have been the Facebook page you created for Joan. I'm wondering if what that means is that as long as the two of you were working out your future privately between yourselves, taking your time, your wife was able to cope, but as soon as you started going public, with everything that implied about the way friends and relatives would react, it all became too much for her.

I'm sure the loss of sexual relations between you is another blow for her. While this could be a consequence of the stress you're going through, or your discomfort resulting from her changed attitude toward you, unfortunately I get the impression from things you've said elsewhere that you may not feel like continuing your sex life at all in a male role. I don't know what your wife was expecting to happen, but all these things are major losses she's having to face. Losses in life need to be grieved, and grieving and adjustment take time.

I gather from her asking you "What does the Bible say?" in response to your crossdressing activity that she could be deeply religious. It's not that the answer matters one way or the other (a sympathetic reading of the Bible is entirely valid), but if she's been contemplating staying with you through transition, how far is that because your relationship is close in other ways, and how far is it due to a strong sense of religious obligation to the permanency of marriage? If it's partly the latter, she must be feeling very conflicted herself and will have some sorting out of her own to do.

I imagine that both of you could benefit from joint counseling with someone other than that pastor. This is all very painful for you right now, so my sympathy to both of you; but with faith you can get through this. Good luck!

[Lorileah]

We have let this go for awhile now but just a warning, it is getting really close to violating religion rules here. Keep it broad based. No slamming any religion and no specific religion OK? Thanks

(PS no quoting the book either)

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Joan- what seems clear is that you are on a path of discovery about yourself.

People do change, evolve, move on. You didn't plan to change, the change sprang from within you, from a place of healing, from a strong compulsion to acknowledge and own something that was missing inside you.

That others find this disturbing and threatening, and I don't just mean your wife, is not surprising at all. Change is always controversial, even change for the better. That others fail to respect the need for change doesn't mean the change should not happen.

Only you can provide the key to your future.

Lots of hugs,

Nikki

[ReineD]

Then she asked me how I felt about her, the other week. I might have said something here? Well, my love has changed into more like a sister. So I'm dealing with the change in her from telling her that. Honestly I want to be with her but not sexual with her. I cant be sexual without help, and then it's just not full filling. Our relationship has changed so much that last two months, it's starting to make my head spin. I'm beginning to understand why my wife has been acting the way she has.

I'm sorry that you and your wife are going through this.

Some people have suggested going to a gender counselor. I think you should consult a marital therapist, hopefully one who has experience with sex therapy.

You look to be in your 40s(?) - too young to call a halt to a sex life with your wife. I can understand why she avoids going to bed with you, if she knows that you are no longer interested in her. I would feel the same way. I would feel utterly rejected.

In the above quote, you say "Honestly I want to be with her but not sexual with her. I cant be sexual without help, and then it's just not full filling." What sort of help do you mean - are you saying that dressing-up helps with your arousal, and without dressing-up you have no interest in sex?

If this is indeed what you mean, then we get back to sexual incompatibilities. Your wife is aroused by you, but you are aroused by the CDing. Maybe a good sex therapist can help with that. And maybe this is what your pastor was trying to tell you ... that this sort of incompatibility is very difficult in a marriage. I'm guessing that your pastor has limited experience with CDers, and he might well think that if you stop dressing, then you and your wife can resume marital relations. It's not that simple, you'll need extra help from someone who is trained in the various things that arouse people.

[Joan.Meredith]

First thank you all for the kind words.

I think I'll do my best to answer a couple of questions that have come up. First I do have a gender therapist, she is great and is encouraging me to find my true-self. I've been seeing her since the beginning of November. Secondly, I'm attracted to men. It's taken a long time for me to own this one, I've been fighting it since middle school. I had a sexual relationship with a guy my own age during middle school, I think he was playing me. Because he left me for a girl, it took me over a year to get over him. I then tried to put it behind me and be "normal" and get a girlfriend. This whole time dealing with wanting to be a girl.

Thirdly it has been asked what I mean by "without help", hmm how to put this without getting in trouble. It takes a lot of fantasy, toys, & trying to look interested in her. She knows I'm attracted to men, has known for some time just about as long as knowing about my gender/cross dressing (being years ago she found out). Fourth, I believe that I was in the "pink fog" for the last month so I was pushing harder than I realized. So I was driving my wife crazy with all the talk about transition, skirts, leggings, ear piercing, etc. etc. I since have come out of the "fog" over the last week. I apologized to her last night for my pushing, and pushing, thinking that on a scale of 1 to 10 I was a 5. She said I was a solid 10. I have been able to talk about other things other that transitioning this week, which has been helpful to her she said.

I'm hoping that her going to our pastor was a knee jerk reaction, but now I've got to deal with the church as I move forward a lot sooner than I wanted to.

Also I'm wearing my wedding ring this morning, but it didn't start out that way. I'm friends with my wife, there are times I feel that if we were not such good friends our marriage would have been over a long long long time ago.

I hope this clears some thing up for some people. I also hope that this doesn't cause the thread to be closed due to going out of bounds. Again thank you for your kind words, and advise.

[arbon]

.



I'm hoping that her going to our pastor was a knee jerk reaction, but now I've got to deal with the church as I move forward a lot sooner than I wanted to.




by moving forward to you mean that you are transitioning?

[Joan.Meredith]

Moving forward would be finding a balance of my true-self and my maleness... I don't know where the stop line is right now. It feel like the rules changed, so I'm going slow and see how far I can go till I'm told "if you go any farther we're done." I want to transition all the way surgeries and all, but I've got a lot to consider before I get there.

Joan

- - - Updated - - -

Doing my best to help keep it in line.. :notworthy:

[Anne2345]

It feel like the rules changed ....

Rules? What rules? There are no rules. Not any rules that gender dysphoria plays by, anyways. Therein, of course, lies the difficulty of it all, and the real reason why you have found yourself in your current dilemma. Because you, your wife, and your pastor are trying to play a game by rules that simply do not exist. And as you seem to be discovering, it doesn't work that way. As Arbon pointed out, this is not easy stuff. But this doesn't mean that it's bad stuff, either. What it would seem to mean for you, based upon the desperate tone of what you have written, is that you really have your work cut out for you somewhere further down the road, if not already.

[Suzanne F]

Joan
I hear so much of my story in your struggle. I knew I was a girl at 5 or 6 years r old. My first sexual experience was with another boy, we were on the basketball team. It really messed with me as I knew I was a girl but yet had to act like it never happened. It would occur several times over the next years always instigated by him. I never knew how to sort all my feelings out.

So I spent the majority of my adult life suppressing what I knew to be true. I have been through addiction, success and failure in differing degrees. After getting sober I tried to be the best man I could. Ultimately I failed. I too love my wife. She is the strongest, bravest woman I have ever met. She surely deserves a wonderful man.

In the end I couldn't fight it anymore. Once I let a little,light into the closet the door was flung open. I have transitioned and had SRS and live as me now. With my wife and son in a wonderful and fragile world. I can't tell you what to do. However, I can tell you that there is hope. Some of us find an inner strength we didn't know we had. The ridicule, the pain,
and the fear have been faced. Let us know if we can help.
Suzanne

[Stephanie47]

In reference to your comments in #32, you also need to consider what your wife is going through. Wearing women's clothing is one issue. Telling a wife you are attracted to men is another? How do you really expect your wife to react to those. Years ago a friend of my wife told her about her husband's infidelity with a man. She said, "If it was a woman I could fight for my man" meaning using her femininity to woo him back. "But, how do I compete with a man?"

I will readily agree a pastor may not be the best person to consult, but, that's your wife's spiritual well being. Can you expect her to throw it all away to appease you? Your prior posts of last year seem to suggest your wife was trying to accept your desires. You seem to have overloaded her senses. Transitioning? Homosexuality? I would think your marriage degrading to a brother-sister relationship is not really going to improve to a level it was before. There is always going to be your suppressed desires. If you had a sexual relationship with a male already, are you sure you were subconsciously suppressing those desires and using a woman as your "beard?" There is always going to be a nagging feeling of what you said to her in the back of her mind.

I've seen this before. The husband wants and gets it all, while the wife is unfulfilled. Your really need to sort this out. Divorce may be the wise option for the benefit of your wife and children.

[ReineD]

Secondly, I'm attracted to men. It's taken a long time for me to own this one, I've been fighting it since middle school. ...

Thirdly it has been asked what I mean by "without help", hmm how to put this without getting in trouble. It takes a lot of fantasy, toys, & trying to look interested in her. She knows I'm attracted to men, has known for some time just about as long as knowing about my gender/cross dressing (being years ago she found out).

Well, that explains it. If your wife is hoping that you will become interested in her if you stop dressing, it won't work.

Is she OK with being married to a spouse who is interested in men? Can your marriage survive this? I should think that whether or not you dress at this point would come in second when dealing with your marital problems?

Also, is she perchance religious, of the kind that believes men will go to h*ll if they wear women's clothing? If this is her belief, this sort of thing is deeply ingrained and it is, IMO, as difficult to change as asking a CDer to want to stop dressing.

And last, if your wife is OK with you wanting to be with men and if she should eventually reach a point where she was willing to compromise with you on the dressing, would you be willing to compromise as well? Or is it more all-or-nothing for you?

[Tina_gm]

I would ask, is it fair to your wife to remain with you even though you are not attracted to her, and desire to be with men? You feel like she is more of a sister to you rather than a wife, I am thinking she is still interested in being a wife not a sister. For some of us, once the door has been opened, it is only fair for us to let some or all of our life go, and the people we had in it. It simply isn't fair to them to be with us when we cannot be there for them as we once were.

[CONSUELO]

I'm sorry to hear of your struggles and wish you well. Some here have mentioned finding a marital counsellor who has some skill and understanding of these issues and I believe that would be a good idea. You don't have to suffer through this alone and neither does you wife. It's time to open up but find a skilled and supportive environment first.

[Wen4cd]

You obviously are experiencing a lot of anguish over this issue. I hope you are managing to enjoy your trip.

If I understand your pastor, and if he understands himself, his point is (or should be) that anything 'in this world' is merely a sort of 'windsock' or puppet that you fill with a spiritual or emotional energy and it it always going to be a much lesser imperfect 'representation' of what it truly is that which you're expressing.

If he's a Christian pastor, then Jesus would be the perfect analogy for this. (Not slamming by a long shot, but this is pertinent to this issue) He was essentially a non-material being brought into this physical world a manifestation of something else, whose more 'natural' state is a form of energy on the other side of some metaphysical veil. It is a temporary but agonizing ordeal to exist like a fish out of water, and then to suffer and die, but it is essentially what we call living. Maybe the purpose of that particular teaching was to serve and illustrate that aspect of the human condition by example?

Viewing ourselves in reference to our other selves, etc and trying to reconcile all of this with some sense of identity is ultimately a stroll into the jaws of a never-ending paradox. No therapist will solve it for you, no pastor. At best you will find peace with the paradox and then apply it in your life and with your interactions with the other temporary inhabitants of this place.

"No place in this world for Joan" could ultimately mean what I discovered about my own life, and that a lot of this animatic femme 'side' we long to express is in essence the spiritual content of our own souls, and actually IS our soul, and it's our place in the trinity and our connection to divinity, etc.

In the Jungian terms, your anima is your inward facing self, your doorway to the collective unconscious, and it's place is not as much to force its way into your conscious world, but the part of you that is the portal into that other world.

It could rightly be that we are all equal parts lion, witch and, um, wardrobe.

And as well, I have personally found, for myself, that insisting that this energy be manifested, trapped, if you will, here in physical form by my dressing as it and emulating it, and wanting others to validate it for us, is at best a form of worship, and at worst, is essentailly holding my 'spiritual fish' out of its natural ocean and forcing it to try to breathe air. There are moments like a drug when we have done all the work and feel the bliss of the identity posession, and this moment will of course seduce us into further pursuit, but there is no threshold you can cross where that identity will be constant and you will feel good and like yourself from then on.

Insisting that this part of myself exist here and now on this physical plane is also potentially self-degrading in that it is forcing it into an infinitely small box that it just so much less worthy of its true place, just for my own temporary comfort. Ever felt like a tortured mermaid forced to breathe air and walk on daggers?

I still dress a few times a year, but its been dwindling, and becoming almost purely an artistic pursuit. (Meaning that at one moment it can be an all-consuming passion and at another it sits on the back burner while other pursuits or aspects of life take precedence.)

Regardless of whether I am dressing, I always have, after a certain amount of age and experience, feel, somewhere, the existence my own(?) feminine presence, whether it be right there next to me whispering in my ear when needed, or far away and longed for, or right inthe centre seat of identity pushing all the buttons.

I still occasionally look for a 'venue' to exist as a CD, but I realize on a day-to-day that it's more convenient and streamlined for me to carry that energy within me than to wear it upon me. I think modern society has created niche identities for those who wish it and are willing to sacrifce greatly for it, but for myself, I find that I am no where near enough consistent with my dressing to warrant such immense loss for a gain that I know I could well lose conscious interest in for the next couple months, despite how elated I feel in the moment. A lot of people take these options, but it's not for the most part of CD's.

It's a lifetime of plate spinning for most of us, but the point is that 'not dressing' in no way equals not being true to self, "Joan having no place in the world" doesn't necessarily devalue Joan. It could actually mean that Joan is the part of you that is far, far greater than anything on this temporary plane, and trying to make her exist here is a cruelty akin to trying to keep the holy spirit as a genie in a bottle on a shelf for you to admire.

I hope things are well in Florida, try to love your family, and keep a benevolent temper on those parts of yourself which are straining for expression. My experience is that when not given good expression they will, being as ambivalent and beyond labels as anything ethereal, gladly take the bad road, and damage the things in your life you care for the most.

[Dressing up]

Joan, hang in there. I wouldn't cross any point of no return right now, you know what those points are in your situation. The intensity of you current state of mind will ebb and flow. Right now you have a wife who loves and cares for you, try to see things from her side and express empathy with her feelings. she deserves that. You can solve this any time soon, but you can express the love and understanding you wife deserves. I agree with others here that you will need to encourage her to see a professional. You do know this side of you cannot be repressed, so burying Joan has got to be off the table. Best to both of you.