MGTOW: A possible inspiration for DADT-afflicted CDers?

[Leslie Langford]

Some of you here may already have heard of a movement that has recently sprung up and which is gradually gaining momentum called MGTOW, or "Men Going Their Own Way". In essence, it is a backlash against the institutionalized feminism that has become such a force in the Western world in the last 50 years or so, and is meant to empower men against the way women often try to control us to do their bidding through manipulation, subtle coercion, guilt, and that old standby - the promise of great sex if we just toe the line. Attached are a couple of links that explain what that philosophy is all about:

https://www.mgtow.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEk4rUqvVhY

Sure, the MGTOW movement has attracted its fair share of misogynists, mouth-breathing Neanderthals, Bubbas, and assorted other A-holes, just as feminism often finds itself having to deal with the virulent misandrists, TERF's ("Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists"), and professional victims in their midst, and which often give it a bad name as well. And yet, I can see how the one movement may have begotten the other, with both sides of the great Mars/Venus divide staking out their respective positions. I can also see where some of the MGTOW's are coming from, although not necessarily with the simplistic approach some of them have adopted, nor some of their perhaps mean-spirited retaliatory tactics.

And yet...for those of us trapped in miserable DADT relationships not of our choosing, and where our wives or SO's seem to hold all the power that we have reluctantly yielded to them when it comes to controlling our crossdressing for the sake of peace, who among us wouldn't also want to say, "Hell, yeah! Maybe these guys have a point when it comes to growing a pair..." :doh:

So I ask - has the time come for us CDers to band together and start a similar movement... a CDGTOW "Crossdressers Going Their Own Way"
analog to MGTOW if you will, and one that will liberate us from DADT once and for all? ;) :eek: :heehee:

[Tracii G]

The reason for the MGTOW movement is the way women have treated men.I'm glad men are finally standing up for themselves.
Now some CD's here have the idea that they are feminists and they will tell you all about how men have held women back so get ready for the backlash.
You are going to hear all men are misogynists,xnenophobs,homophobes yadda yadda.
This has the makings of a great thread or not.LOLOL

[Laura912]

Leslie, now you've done gone and poked the hornets nest! Not too sure there is a parallel between the forces driving DADT and MGTOW. :2c:

[Teresa]

Leslie,
I go go for it 100% !

DADT is destructive in so many ways, OK I've said this before but being reduced to almost ending your life is as bad as it gets . The rejection, lack of understanding and not wanting to accept some men are wired this way. Most of my conversations usually end with me feeling guilty about how my Cding is affecting our relationship, it's mostly give with very little take . I don't think most men would take the hurtful comments if they weren't in a CDing situation so why should we, I try so hard not to hurt her back, all it ends up with is me suppressing anger and resentment.
I know my wife isn't that stupid not to realise the hurt it causes, I've told her more than once how much I hurt inside, somehow it feels more like a punishment I must endure because of something I can't change.

Sorry folks, I'm having a tough time at the moment, I've looked deeper into AGP and I know it's my problem, the frustration is my wife is never going to understand or even try to let me explain any of that. I'm so desperate to go full time , CDGTOW 100% !!

[sometimes_miss]

MGTOW is nothing new. Alpha males have practiced this forever. It's basically just being sure to be the one who 'loves less', staying in charge of the relationship. For most men, it doesn't happen until too late, after we've been burned badly in a divorce settlement, crippling any further socializing by removing so much of our salaries and assets and giving them to our ex wives and family and leaving the man alone, to survive at a subsistence level of life.

[Amelie]

I think there is some sort of control in all relationships. Even with me, the guys wanted me to do what they wanted me to do. I had to give in to their demands on how I should live my life. Some thought being a goth was cute until they wanted me to stop and change to their way of being. So even if the person knew I was trans or a goth, they still tried to restrict how I live my life. So instead of changing my life, I moved on, sometimes it took awhile to move on but eventually I did.

I can't answer being DADT cause I am not in a relationship with a female or have a family like others here have. If I feel that someone is pressuring me to be something I am not, then I move on. This is kinda how I feel about others, sometimes if you wish to live the way you want, sometimes you have to do it alone or until you meet that right person. If the other person can't change the way you live, then you probably won't change the way they feel either.

I only write the above from my experiences, it not meant for everyone. I never heard of MGTOW until just now.

[Allisa]

I've found the solution to DADT marriages...don't get married, I didn't. Get ready ... no ball and chain around my ankle, now bring on the hate and envy.

[sweetdreams]

This is such a difficult topic especially when the discussions happen sometime later in a marriage. The consequences can be dramatic. I'll tell you a little about my life to illustrate how I've dealt with my CDing in my relationships.....

CDing has always been there. I haven't always understood it well enough or handled it well. The worst I did was when I first married. I was 20 and the wife was 18. I didn't tell her about it before we got married, but it surfaced early on and I wanted to share it with her. At this point there were no children or a mortgage. It would have been relatively easy to go our separate ways if that's what was needed. The wife was somewhat accepting and things continued rolling along. CDing was something I did occasionally. I kept a collection of lingerie that the wife knew about and every once in a while I would underdress or wear pretty things when we were intimate. Stockings were/are my big thing.

As things continued my CDing changed. I tried to make it more of a natural part of my life. I would wear panties pretty much 24/7 at times. We had children, had a mortgage, all the trappings of a relationship. Things were generally good. Then the mid-life crises hit when I was around 40. The relationship strained. It wasn't related to my CDing. It was other things. We went to counseling. Lots of things were talked about including my CDing. I need to emphasize the CDing was not the elephant in the room but merely something needing to be discussed. The wife did go to a therapist of her own. Her therapist was less than supportive toward CDing and warned of future escalation. Again this was not our biggest problem. In the end of all of this we separated and later divorced.

So at this point I was single and wanting to find a new relationship. One of the big take-aways I had from our therapy sessions was the need to be out with CDing early in the relationship, not on the first date or anything like that but before things became really serious. I made a commitment to my self and whoever I got involve with, that this would be out in the open.

When this happened there was no internet. I decided the best way to connect with people was through the personal ads in newspapers. I placed a couple of well written ads (specific to who I was and looking for). I met some of the girls who responded for lunch or coffee to get to know each other better. Most didn't work out but a couple did.

The first girl I started to date was very open minded. We didn't get to the point of a serious long term relationship. I didn't bring up the CDing topic but one Halloween I decided to test the waters a little bit. I got girlied up as best as I could (no makeup or a wig). This was essentially a guy in a dress with all the trimmings. I headed over to her house. Her first reaction was "oh, I wondered if you had a creative side." As the evening went along she put a wig on me and was actively playing with the situation. She tried to get me to strip down a little. I didn't (what a dummy). The evening ended with her asking me if I enjoyed dressing in girls clothes a lot, a little, or not really. I said a lot. She told me to keep the lingerie and we would have a girls night out sometime. Things moved along and we didn't progress much farther due to other reasons.

The second relationship was much more serious. We dated for several months and things felt pretty good for both of us. This girl was divorced and had a couple of kids at home who were in their teens. As things moved along she suggested it was time for me to move in with them (she had a house, I lived in an apartment). This was the time I decided to tell her about my CDing. She came over one evening and we had the talk. Basically I said something like "It's a little embarrassing. I don't know where this comes from but it's there. I like to dress in girls clothes." She wasn't shocked. She didn't cry. She was just processing the information. A few days went past. She had talked with her therapist who was supportive and said it's no big deal, it's just clothes. The GF told me it was OK. I decided to put it to the test to make sure. She came over one evening and I got girlied up again as best as I could (still no makeup or wigs). She knocked on the door, I opened it and there I was. She smiled and came in. Again she was processing the information. She had never really encountered this kind of situation. Well what good timing, the ex phoned right then. There I was in full dress, standing in front of the GF, and talking to the ex. The ex wouldn't get off the phone. Normally we have quick conversation that last a minute or two. This time she wanted to chat about all kinds of stuff. Meanwhile the GF is ogling me. Finally I get off the phone and walk up to the GF. She slides her hand up my dress to see what I have on underneath the dress. It wasn't more than a minute or two and she took me by the hand into the bedroom. Game on. We made love while I was fully dressed and she liked it. The relationship progressed, I moved in, and for a couple of years it was wonderful. I could go into lots more detail but this would digress from this thread and what I'm trying to get to.

I came to a crossroad in my life. I had the chance to move to a different city for work. The relationship with the GF was a little rocky. I was essentially looking for a way to end it. This was my chance. GF and I were going to therapy. The ex also surfaced and wanted to reconcile. The potential move to a different city was forcing the issue. I basically had two girls wanting to be with me. I had to make some decisions. To make a long story short, I reconciled with the ex. We are back together for another 20 years (so far). The CDing was certainly out in the open.

My point in this rather lengthy discussion (sorry for being long winded) is if you are true to yourself, things can work out. I made the commitment to myself to make sure the CD part of me was accepted and embraced to some degree. It had to have a home in a warm and loving relationship. If I would have encountered someone who was not willing to have this as part of the relationship, things would have ended. I never had this happen. I'm not saying there haven't been compromises, but I will say for me living in a DADT or a total rejection wouldn't work. My CDing is a special part of me that needs to be accommodated. MGTOW? Absolutely for me but not in an uncaring, ruthless ultimatum kind of way. Again a relationship has to be warm and loving, and if I'm with someone who is so callous as to give me an ultimatum or start laying down hard and fast rules to accommodate only her, well that just wouldn't work for me. I might wear a dress but I still have a pair.

[CarlaWestin]

The reason for the MGTOW movement is the way women have treated men.I'm glad men are finally standing up for themselves.
Now some CD's here have the idea that they are feminists and they will tell you all about how men have held women back so get ready for the backlash.
You are going to hear all men are misogynists,xnenophobs,homophobes yadda yadda.
This has the makings of a great thread or not.LOLOL

I'm certainly with you on this one, Tracii. I can't recall ever being in a relationship that was manipulative. My ex pretended to like my CD activity to collect divorce data. I'm in my big booby, skater skirt comfort zone while DADT sleeps in. It's pretty calm but, it took a while for her to see that I am really the same person. And, she seems to want to play the victim routine until I mention that when the knight in shining armor shows up to sweep her away, he can't park his horse in my garage.

In my sixty-one years I've come to the conclusion that there are only two types of people in the world.
Victims and Problem Solvers. I've done very well with the latter.

[Micki_Finn]

"for those of us trapped in miserable DADT relationships not of our choosing" Are you kidding me? I wasn't aware that there were states/provinces where divorce was illegal. Unless she's got you chained up in the basement it most certainly IS of your choosing.

[CONSUELO]

This is the first time I have heard of MGTOW. I think it is a silly idea. Feminism and equal rights are issues for a good reason: women were treated unequally and poorly for a long long time and it needed correction. It would be too easy for this so-called movement to become a cover for misogyny and boorishness.

I told my spouse before we were married and she was happy to go ahead. I don't think she understood what being married to a fetishistic transvestite truly meant and she did not do any research on the issue. So problems arose.

We are still together but not because I joined some silly "movement". I asserted myself and my needs. This is what I am and have been since the age of about 5 and this is what I shall remain being. It wasn't easy and there was much conflict but the relationship survived.

What we really need is for cross dressers to acknowledge who they are and assert themselves. We seem to love to exist in the shadows.

[Tracii G]

Consuelo how is a man standing up for himself a silly idea you did it.
Oh here come the buzzword misogyny (look people here it is again).
What about women that take and not give in a relationship where does that fit in?
What about all the CD's here in DADT relationships that are miserable how is that acceptable?
Women need to be equal in the eyes of the law and be treated fairly I totally agree but they do not have the right to force their mate to be something he is not.
I guess I'm weird because most of the women I know think the whole feminist "movement" currently is a bunch of bs.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Wow, that was one of the most hateful web sites, ive seen in a long time. DADT is mostly used in conjution with the passing of information. I've spoken to people who have DADT in the context of these areas as well.:
. religion
. politics.
. extra marital relationships
. work
. family

The MGTOW from what ive read from the OP links is more about giving men self permission to act and behave like d*cks towards women.

From the quotes section, I got a sense of high school pre pubescent teens who have been rejected by the object of their adoration and now are sulking in their room plotting revenge.

[Tracii G]

Kelly I can see where you might think it gives a guy permission to be a prick but look deeply, what caused the guy to feel that way?
I'm not advocating being mean to women just because you can its about being fair to men and not running their lives.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Tracii;

I'll limit my reply to how DADT becomes a factor in a Crossdressers life on this site, excluding Transgeder couples.

Ive read many stories over the years on this site and a majority of them have a good relationship with the one exception their spouse or SO has withheld the information that they dress in women's clothing. Once they have the talk, the woman now has to process the information and may come to the decision that "I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to know about it" and it becomes DADT. How is that being unfair to men and ruining their lives ? They are the ones who have had their perceptions of what their man is.

[Tracii G]

I totally understand where you are coming from and if both agree to the arrangement then OK.
All are not like that we all have read about those relationships on this site and many marriages dissolved over it.
Those are the ones I was referring to.

[Leslie Langford]

Leslie, now you've done gone and poked the hornets nest! Not too sure there is a parallel between the forces driving DADT and MGTOW. :2c:

Yes, that's me...guilty as charged! I'm not a huge fan of the namby-pamby, middle-of-the-road path of political correctness just because - God forbid! - some "inconvenient truths" might offend the more faint-of-heart out there.

Sure, some of Sandman's comments in the linked video might be a bit over-the-top when it comes to his spin on male-female relationship dynamics, but he does have the "cojones" to call a spade a spade. Like it or not, innate biological imperatives are at the root of what drives male and female behaviors when it comes to the relationship/mating dance, and the two camps often come at this from different directions - and certainly from the standpoint of their motivations. Fundamental to this are the associated power dynamics, the need for self-preservation, and the biological urge to keep procreating in order to ensure the survival of the species.

I may not agree with everything that Sandman and the MGTOW adherents proclaim when it comes to navigating the Mars/Venus minefield, but one thing I am convinced of... females - regardless of whether or not this is biologically or culturally induced, and rightly or wrongly - often see much of their worth and self-esteem tied to their perceived sexual attractiveness - or lack thereof.

There have been many debates on this forum as to whether or not our wives' and SOs' aversion to our crossdressing may be rooted in a "fear" of the alleged competition to their innate femininity that the crossdressing spouse represents. The GG's then invariably chime in to shoot that POV down in flames, and let those posters know in no uncertain terms just how full of sh*t they really are, and how no amount of external "female" trappings in the way we might be presenting ourselves is a substitute for the real deal. Fair enough, but then again, noted French author Simone de Beauvoir once famously declared "One is not born a woman; one becomes one"... but I digress.

So yes, while we may not realistically be competing with our wives and SO's on the "true, inborn femininity" playing field, our self-absorption with what we see as our particular feminine sides still sticks in their craws. Getting back to Sandman's point...and here is where I draw a parallel between DADT and some of the drivers behind the MGTOW movement - the fact that our attention is being directed away from them in favor of the "other woman" (in this case, our alter egos) is what drives our partners crazy, and they use every means at their disposal...guilt, shaming, threats of exposure etc. to subvert us in our endeavors and to try to re-assert their psychological control over us.

[TinaMc]

Gawd, the MGTOW is on the loony fringe of the MRA movement, which is already a loony movement.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Yes, that's me...guilty as charged! I'm not a huge fan of the namby-pamby, middle-of-the-road path of political correctness just because - God forbid! - some "inconvenient truths" might offend the more faint-of-heart out there.

Sure, some of Sandman's comments in the linked video might be a bit over-the-top when it comes to his spin on male-female relationship dynamics, but he does have the "cojones" to call a spade a spade. Like it or not, innate biological imperatives are at the root of what drives male and female behaviors when it comes to the relationship/mating dance, and the two camps often come at this from different directions - and certainly from the standpoint of their motivations. Fundamental to this are the associated power dynamics, the need for self-preservation, and the biological urge to keep procreating in order to ensure the survival of the species.



Some of the comments are a bit over the top ? Like these quotes:
... By the age of twelve at the latest, most women have decided to become prostitutes. Or, to put it another way they have planned a future for themselves which consists of choosing a man and letting him do all the work.
... Western ****s, get across the message that your only interest is to perform the most degrading sex acts you can think of before severing all contact. And don’t really care if they don’t want to, because you can easily find some other **** who will
This view is more then a bit over the top

[JeanTG]

I had to do a double-take... for me, MGTOW means Maximum Gross Take-Off Weight....

Anyway the new meaning doesn't resonate with me. While I think men often come up short with the feminist movement, I think it's like any other pendulum swing. Eventually it will come back near the middle to a more balanced and nuanced position.

Men and women are different, including sexually, and we just have to learn to live with it. DADT is necessary because our getting all dolled up plays on one of women's greatest anxieties, insecurity or fear of losing her man. I think it's a primal fear, not based on rationality, but nonetheless very real and we ignore it at our peril. A very few manage to overcome that and embrace their feminine husbands, but my experience is that they are rare. To those married to one, realize how precious a gift you've got!

[CONSUELO]

Don't get me wrong. I am fully in support of those members of our community asserting themselves and standing up for their rights as an individual. What I don't see the point of is to align those perfectly sensible actions with a movement that includes attitudes that appear misogynistic.

Honesty, respect for and by individuals in a relationship and so forth are all good things. I sympathize with those who feel trapped in an oppressive DADT situation and hope they can find the strength to stand up and demand to be treated fairly and with respect.

[JeanTG]

Consuelo, my wife has always spoken of how difficult it is to tolerate my dressing but reluctantly she does (in DADT except for underwear which is unrestricted).

You may have hear about the Muslim murders at a mosque in Quebec City, which is far too close to home for comfort. That got a discussion going about tolerance. I said tolerance is not enough; tolerance means "reluctantly putting up with". We need to move beyond tolerance to acceptance. I said "I as much as anyone else know this". She agreed heartily. I left it at that, but I hope that opened the door a crack.

In an ideal world we'd even move beyond "acceptance" to "embracing", but I can understand how seeing me dressed up could bother her and would never want to make her uncomfortable in that way. But I'd like to be in the open, me out of the figurative closet and my clothes in the real closet, and my bras and pantyhose in my lingerie drawer where my panties, at least, already are.

I think it requires give-and-take. I wouldn't be too happy, for example, to see my wife in boxer briefs and a fake beard, putting on a man's suit and tie in the morning, so I can understand why the opposite would turn her off. We have to learn to respect each others' boundaries. I can't ask my wife to be turned on by what turns her off.

But like you I don't think men asserting their rights should be associated with misogyny.

[Valery L]

Do not compare MGTOW with that feminist crap, it is not an anti-feminism movement, nor an egalitarian ideology. To start with, MGTOW is not a social movement, it is just a personal decision. Men going their own way is just the term used to identify those male individuals who refuse to follow the expected role of a provider in a marriage or any other form or relationship with a woman. They prefer to use their time and resources in other things, such as fulfilling their needs, professional and economic goals. Society expects men to maintain women (in general), to be providers, etc. That expectation made sense before, but with women empowerment, it does not make much sense now, in western societies women have more rights than men, but not the same obligations. The feminist collective demands more and more rights, and has turned the legal system into a joke against men. For that reason, marriage and divorce right now are amazing business for many women who want to receive money for doing nothing, regardless of if they destroy the life of their men or not. That is the main reason MGTOW exists, marriage is a bad business for men. The system makes it that way and there is almost nothing that can be done to change that. Therefore it is reasonable for men, to avoid marriage or any other kind of relationship that endangers them in any economic and legal way. Of course a man taking that decisions sacrifices the possibility of having a family, from some men the price might be to high or not, that is their decision, but of course there are arguments to support their choice if they decide to be MGTOW. Until the absurd system changes and makes marriage a fair deal again, it is completely reasonable to avoid it at all costs (from men perspective). It is common sense, nobody wants to go to jail or to spend money for someone else's children.

[XemmaX]

hmmm i get that these ideas come from a painful place for many but i do think mgtow seems to have some serious problematic undertones and appears to be close to the very sexist anti feminist mens rights movement. i would hope that cding will never associate itself with anything like that. that being said dadt is a painful situation to be in but i hate to say it's avoidable by being open about this stuff and talking to your partner. you know if someone doesn't fully accept you as you are then maybe you need to move on. sure it's sad but why stay. i have been open early on about this stuff to partners in previous relationships and if they react in a way that they didnt accept then i left as why would i have stayed with someone who didnt accept an important part of me that will never go away. this dont ask dont tell situations can make one feel like they are trapped But i think this changes when cd's start to come out of the shadows and assert who they are and what they want out of life.

[DeeDeeB]

Sorry, but MGTOW, DADT, MRA - WTF - doesn't any one speak English any more? I refuse to call the president POTUS, even though in this case it is a compliment, or the supreme court SCOTUS, even though it reminds me of the body part it reminds me of.

Sorry, but I may be too old for this thread.

Dee :fairy1:

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry for my previous thread, but I don’t text and I do like the English language.

That aside, there is no doubt in my mind that we need to shamelessly (that means without shame, because we shouldn’t have any) express ourselves. That is easy for me to say since my wife already fully accepts me. I also know my inhibitions about going out in public are my own. But there is a real movement going on for all us trans folk, and we each need to decide how much we want to push it forward. I know ladies who have been on the forefront for years, working to get us where we are now. They have faced untold rejection, litigation, and medical issues because of a general rejection of who they (we) are. When I was in college, crossdressing was a crime. Now, years later we are fighting for the right to use the proper restroom. It is a continuing struggle and will be even more challenging in the current political climate. I fully understand we all need to be accepted in our own homes first, but when you can, please move forward to promote the common good. As they say, united we stand, divided we fall.

Anyhow, if you want to call it CDGTOW, I’m in, even if I don’t understand what it stands for.

Dee :fairy1:

[Stephanie Julianna]

I'm 'lettered' out. Isn't it enough for me to just be a transgendered, bisexual crossdresser ina a DADT marriage? I'm really O.K. with that.

[Tracii G]

Yeah I am too old for this silliness too.
I'm tired of 20 something know it all types that just want to argue and call me a homophobe (that happened on another web site).

[redtea]

As long as CDgtow doesn't end up being apart of LGBTQ who then goes to start some whiny movement on tumbler and becomes the male version of feminism I guess its cool

[Violetgray]

Mgtow needs to die a fiery death. It is the ideological equivalent of a dish-water smoothie.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

In essence, it is a backlash against the institutionalized feminism that has become such a force in the Western world in the last 50 years or so,

#define institutionalized feminism.

Also you seem to be implying that feminism is a bad thing?


and is meant to empower men against the way women often try to control us to do their bidding through manipulation, subtle coercion, guilt, and that old standby - the promise of great sex if we just toe the line.

And men didn't control women over millenia?


And yet...for those of us trapped in miserable DADT relationships not of our choosing,

DADT crossdressing is most certainly of the crossdressers choosing. THEY are the ones that CHOSE to not have an adult conversation with the spouse and took the "dark and easy path" of simply not talking about it. What the little wifey doesn't know or see won't hurt her right? Now lets go down to the Water Buffalo lodge and watch some stag films and play poker with playing cards with naked women on them.


and where our wives or SO's seem to hold all the power that we have reluctantly yielded to them when it comes to controlling our crossdressing for the sake of peace,

Why do you see the relationship in terms of power? Isn't that a rather old fashioned mindset? YOU are the ones who choose to not deal with "This thing of ours of varying kinds" like an adult. You CHOSE to give veto power so you wouldn't have to have the hard conversations, and now you complain about it?


and one that will liberate us from DADT once and for all? ;) :eek: :heehee:

You want to end DADT crossdressing? Encourage more CD's to grow up and start treating the wife as an equal and not do the "father knows best" thing.


Now some CD's here have the idea that they are feminists

What do you mean "idea", the transfolk here who identify as feminists ARE feminists. After all there were men at Seneca Falls and there were male founding members of NOW.


and they will tell you all about how men have held women back

Which they did and still do in certain ways in certain areas.


Are you kidding me? I wasn't aware that there were states/provinces where divorce was illegal. Unless she's got you chained up in the basement it most certainly IS of your choosing.

That's what I was thinking.



Oh here come the buzzword misogyny (look people here it is again).

Misogyny exists, it isn't a buzzword. The word itself has been around since 1650.


What about all the CD's here in DADT relationships that are miserable how is that acceptable?

It isn't, but it takes TWO to make a DADT.


I guess I'm weird because most of the women I know think the whole feminist "movement" currently is a bunch of bs.

let me guess, blue collar older rural southern women?


I'm not a huge fan of the namby-pamby, middle-of-the-road path of political correctness

Those societal changes you're describing there are some of the reasons crossdressers can go out in public without much hassle.


Sorry, but MGTOW, DADT, MRA - WTF - doesn't any one speak English any more?

They're acronyms, which have been around since ancient times, but which have become more prevalent since WWII.


I refuse to call the president POTUS, even though in this case it is a compliment, or the supreme court SCOTUS, even though it reminds me of the body part it reminds me of.

FDR, (who had been signing letters "FDR" since childhood), used POTUS in his messages to Churchill during the war. POTUS is a LOT faster to write than President of the United States of America, same goes for SCOTUS.


Yeah I am too old for this silliness too.
I'm tired of 20 something know it all types that just want to argue and call me a homophobe (that happened on another web site).

So you're okay with stereotyping young people, but don't want CD's stereotyped? After all, those young people (and young people in the past) are another reason why CD's can go out without much hassle. Would you want to be stereotyped as that Drinkin/Druggin/Fightin/Bubba-bad-boy you were? As for homophobia, you sure a bit of that doesn't live on as mental residue from your Bad Boy Bubba days, because some of your reactionary bubba views on women and society as a whole obviously do.


Mgtow needs to die a fiery death.

Right.

Veronica

[Meghan4now]

The REAL problem is that nice guys finish last, at least by our material world definition of success. True, women have been subjected to a second class status, more or less throughout history. But more or less. There are many instances in history where women have been closer to equal. Also men and women both wield power, but by using different skills and strengths. Men have brute force, but women hold the cards in areas of influence and providing important social services.

What I think we currently see is that women have gained much in legal protection for equal opportunity and treatment. And in fact have gained some advantages. They are given consideration for minority owned business for set asides and preferable loans and terms. But this isn't the area they have the greatest power, (and it really doesn't affect 90% of the population anyway).

No where they've gained power is in the social contract. Women do get more consideration in Divorce court (if they can afford an attorney ), but more so in the court of opinion. Basically, it is fine for women to think about men as "selfish dogs", and men are denigrated as such on a regular basis, as is reflected in modern media stereotypes. The bumbling idiot, the selfish sex crazed husband, the lying husband wasting money on toys beer and sports, etc.

This attitude is prevalent in our society. However it only has a negative effect on the "nice" guy. The guy who wants to avoid being a jerk, the guy who doesn't want to be "that guy". There are still lots of class A A-holes out there, that just don't care. But because of them, and add this current stereotype, the poor schmuck that just wants a bit of love and maybe the occasional intimate evening gets screwed (is that word ok here?)

But the power that women have is only relevant to the nice guy. Guys that don't care, that don't stick around and try to make their relationship work, that don't mind being know as as A hole just roll right over them. Making it worse for the next nice guy.

We don't need MGTOW, we need better public role models, both men and women. But instead we get The Bachelor, The Kardashians, The Apprentice and Housewives.

[ronda]

I'm sorry but it is my belief that we are in control of our future if your wife is being disrespectful of you then it's time for a change you did not ask to be a cder me I will not go back to a DADT relationship I deserve better and if I respect a woman enough to tell her then she can make her choice to except it or go my intent is not to hurt anyone in my family it is to become the best person I can be and love myself and be who I am and love should be unconditional

[Leslie Langford]

Sooo, Veronica...back to picking my posts apart line-by-line as you default back into your "schoolmarm" mode, are we? Got the old red marking pencils all sharpened up and ready to go? Do I have to brace myself for an "F" failing grade now?

And most tellingly, hadn't the two of us already done this very same dance on this Forum some years ago? I didn't appreciate your patronizing tone and your overall pedagogical, didactic slice/dice/dissect approach to commenting on my posts back then, and I certainly don't now, either.

I'm not prepared to go along with this passive-aggressive nonsense by dignifying any of your musings with a response. I said what I had to say on this subject in my previous posts, and I believe that I was abundantly clear in the points that I was trying to make there, so no real need to drill any deeper. If you disagree with any of them, that's certainly your prerogative, as it is mine to ignore your silly nit-picking.

By the way, if you really feel that fact-checking is your forte and your calling, there is a certain occupant of the Oval Office in Washington who would greatly benefit from your expertise in this area...

[Vickie_CDTV]

This attitude is prevalent in our society. However it only has a negative effect on the "nice" guy. The guy who wants to avoid being a jerk, the guy who doesn't want to be "that guy". There are still lots of class A A-holes out there, that just don't care. But because of them, and add this current stereotype, the poor schmuck that just wants a bit of love and maybe the occasional intimate evening gets screwed (is that word ok here?)

But the power that women have is only relevant to the nice guy. Guys that don't care, that don't stick around and try to make their relationship work, that don't mind being know as as A hole just roll right over them. Making it worse for the next nice guy.


There are not enough "likes" on the planet for this. As a "nice guy", I cannot agree more. And believe me, I resent it with ever fiber of my being.

[Teresa]

Leslie,
Am I missing the point here ? You didn't ask for comments on MGTOW but CDGTOW and made that distinction. I commented on the latter in relation to your connection with DADT. I can't see why everyone is getting hot under the collar about MGTOW when you raised objections to it in your OP.

If that's the case then my comments are still valid in relation to CDGTOW ! Should I go back and read it again or should so many others ?

[Lily Catherine]

I think DADT in the context of one's spouse is obviously a non-confrontational choice, and probably among the least desirable. (I don't intend to go into any relationship without confronting my partner about Cosa Nostra or however you want to put it. It's a deal breaker, inter alia.) I do not deny that DADT can potentially happen after the issue is discussed either, in any case.

I have for the most part borne witness to the worst possible poster boys of the MGTOW movement, and I disagree strongly with their attitudes and worldviews. Perhaps it's a symptom of most extremists within civil movements, but a lot of their rhetoric strikes me as reactionary.

[Mayo]

tl;dr - CDs need to advocate for themselves (and others under the trans umbrella) in order to be accepted in society; MGTOWs are not the horse to hitch our wagon to.

I'm on the side of VeronicaMoonlit, TinaMC and XemmaX; MGTOWs - however they may spin it - are largely a misogynist MRA splinter movement. Micki_Finn has it right when she says that divorce is always an option - if you can't be true to yourself in a relationship, then you'll either be miserable or divorced, and the choice is up to you. If you have a certain vision of how your relationship should go (including CDing), make it clear to your partner before you marry and sign a pre-nuptial agreement.

What we need is a wholesale rewriting of what it means to be a man and a rejection of the toxic BS that compels men to adhere to rigid gender stereotypes. Standing with feminists and trans people is probably the best way to go about it, IMO. I'd be all in favour of a CD-advocacy group/movement, but I have a feeling that most MGTOW/MRAs are caught up in the same masculinity bind and you won't find much support there.

The pendulum swings from side to side, and right now it tends to be on the side of women where certain things are concerned - I think this is a good thing because society needs to be forced to a point of equality (because it damn well won't go there on its own) before we can do away with codified gender biases (there are enough systemic and implicit ones at the moment that there's still a long way to go). If you want to equalize things like child custody, advocate for it and try to change the system. Spousal & child support (at least here in Canada) are at least theoretically gender-neutral in their calculation. Don't even mention 'false accusations of rape' because they are insignificant compared to the number of sexual assaults that go unreported.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Sooo, Veronica...back to picking my posts apart line-by-line

This what explained to you before by myself and ReineD, don't you remember? It is not "picking apart" it is the standard interleaved style of quoting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style


In the interleaved reply style (also called "inline reply", "point-by-point rebuttal", or, sometimes, "bottom posting"), the original message is broken into two or more sections, each followed by a specific reply or comment. A reply in inline style may also include some top-posted or bottom-posted comments that apply to the whole reply message, rather than to a specific point.
Interleaving was the predominant reply style in the Usenet discussion lists, years before the existence of the WWW and the spread of e-mail and the Internet outside the academic community.
Interleaving was also common originally in e-mail, because many internet users had been exposed to Usenet newsgroups and other Internet forums, where it is still used.[/quote]

In fact we have to multi-quote button to ENABLE the ability to interleave! I also remember you getting a lecture on criticizing posting style, which is what you are doing rather than replying to what I actually wrote.


as you default back into your "schoolmarm" mode, are we? Got the old red marking pencils all sharpened up and ready to go? Do I have to brace myself for an "F" failing grade now?

Any "F" would be from getting inspiration from MGTOW for what is essentially a more extreme form DADT where the crossdresser does what he wants no matter what.


I didn't appreciate your patronizing tone and your overall pedagogical, didactic slice/dice/dissect approach to commenting on my posts back then, and I certainly don't now, either.

It isn't personal, why are you acting as if it is? Look, I can be patronizing to noobs, I freely admit that. But you know as well as I do that too many CD's are staying at the clueless noob stage longer than they ought and encouraging DADT is part of that continuing problem that needs to be dealt with.


By the way, if you really feel that fact-checking is your forte and your calling, there is a certain occupant of the Oval Office in Washington who would greatly benefit from your expertise in this area...

Really? This, from a Canadian?


Leslie,I can't see why everyone is getting hot under the collar about MGTOW when you raised objections to it in your OP.

MGTOW is the LAST place crossdressers should get ideas from in dealing with DADT crossdressing relationships or crossdressing in general. Dealing with it directly and honestly as adults is the way to go. But not-talking is easier, and less scary so far too many crossdressers do that and end up in DADT rather than having the hard conversations. We as a community need to encourage those conversations and not this "CDGTOW" nonsense.

And for those of you in DADT crossdressing relationships, think about this: What happens when you and/or your wife retires? Do you want to end up like former member TGMarla?

Veronica

[Tina_gm]

I just had to take some time out to comment on MGTOWn or a proposed version of it CDMGTOW. Not that my posts are ever much intended to make many friends on this forum, as that is never what I have come here for.... not that I don't have a few on here, or that I design my posts to thwart friendships, but hopefully those who have read mine understand what I am trying to do or say to a degree, and yadda yadda....anyway, this post certainly won't likely be adding to my friend list...

1st, as a man- and the idea of MGTOW. I find the entire idea of it to be utterly disgusting. Honestly does any man really feel this way, the way this movement describes? well apparently some do. how they come to feeling this way I truly do not understand. Other than some immensely ridiculous insecurity I suppose. Feeling trapped by society? I mean really?? Don't like the whole marriage kids mortgage thing? then just leave. Go be the whatever man you need to be. There isn't ANYONE stopping you other than yourself. Well, the lack of money in a bank account maybe..... ah ha! yeah, now having written this, my brain is really starting to figure this out. (ok not really), i fully understand the ridiculousness of it all.

It is the almighty dollar. And that goes for those CDMGTOW's as well.... I do find it really really funny that the CDMGTOW's are feeling repressed by their wives forcing manhood on them, yet the cis version feels the opposite, that their poor wittle manhood is being flushed out, and they are being forced to live in some feminine holy hell.

I am not the most forthcoming of my private real life on here, so I can only ask that people have a general sense of belief in what I write when I say I know or know of people. I definitely know of some men who fit the MGTOW mold very well. the man's man.... doing the man work, while wifey makes a lot more money.... but "he" feels too good to go get a real job, or in some cases A JOB....

I do want to state that blue collar work is a real job, and I know and know of some guys who do real good at it. Make a very good living at it. I also know a lot more who don't make hardly anything. but they are MEN and it is man work and they must live the man life afterall. No sissyfied job as a hospital administrator or stock broker/accountant, wearing a suit with no dirt on their hands and manicured nails yadda yadda.... that's no life for a real man even though it makes these girly men in most cases plenty of money. They had to go to girly college in order to do this though. screw that....

and these girly men come home after work and help with chores (*the horror*) homework, dinner etc etc. And these stockholm syndrome men like it. They've been sissyfied to the max! What real man would want to come home and spend time with his family after all when he could be out getting drunk with his buddies and gettin some.....

As a man who does these girly things, I have a wife who likes and admires and IS THANKFUL that I do these things. I had one before who wasn't, and now she and I are divorced. Hmmmm go figure....

This second wife of mine pretty much gives me free reign to do whatever I want. If I want to go golfing after work, I do not need to ask permission, I just tell her I am going, or bowling, or to a super bowl party, or whatever. I do not need permission to do anything. Maybe I just learned from my mistakes and picked a better woman?? And maybe, just maybe I respect her, and love her enough that A. I don't abuse this freedom, and B. love her enough that I simply want to spend the majority of my free time with her, and my kids..... go figure that. But then again, I've been sissyfied so I am a lost cause to the real men anyway. oh well, guess I will just do the next best thing and enjoy the money I make, go places, do things, have decent things.... live life without massive financial stress. (always some of course) It's a second rate life I know, but I make do the best I can.

Now, as for the CDMGTOW- trapped you say. REALLY, trapped. repressed? the DADT thing of course, the horror of that. (I get it, I really do) except that it still brings you more time to express than you did before, along with the lack of stress from the constant hiding/lying. But this DADT thing, I mean, you agreed to it right? WHY did you agree to something so horrible??? Could it be that you realized at the time how horrible your lying and deceit was when you married her? and then at the time felt it reasonable to give her the ability to not have to deal with it all? after all, more time to dress and no more lying and hiding is still an improvement....

I know its not a perfect solution, but it was an agreed to solution after all. Agreed by you, and not at gun point either. But YOU DO all have a choice. Break YOUR agreement. The consequences of breaking YOUR agreement probably won't be pretty. Breaking agreements never usually is. But, you still do have that option, regardless of what happens, and you can go your own way.

[Katie01]

I'm heartened by the girls who stand up against this mysoginistic crap. I am appalled by how many men on this site support it. STOP BLAMING WOMEN FOR YOUR SELF ESTEEM ISSUES! I am seriously considering leaving this forum. This not the kind of club I want to be part of.

[Teresa]

Veronica,
I don't like the doctrine of the MGTOW group much either, but Leslie related CDers in a DADT situation to a CDGTOW movement which would be an entirely different thing.

We all have different versions of DADT ! Yes I would love to have an open honest relationship where my CDing was discussed along with other matters between a married couple. Whether you call adult or not it just doesn't happen when it comes to CDing she doesn't want to know, end of subject . As I've said before I just live a double life, but I don't entirely agree with Micki Finn that getting a divorce will solve all your problems, all you've done is doubled your partners load. To most there are no simple answers when it comes to Cding, someone always gets hurt somewhere along the line.

[Zooey]

Sometimes, on and off the forum, I will say something to the effect of, "the cross dressing community is home to some of the most misogynistic, selfish, anti-women men on the planet, and most of them have no clue and think they're totally 'one of the gurls'". Usually you all yell at me for it. In the future, I will simply link this thread and say, "Exhihits A through Z, your honor, and kindly shut up."

[KymberlyOct]

3 points.
1. Zooey - YAY.

2. Full disclosure... I am divorced but I learned something in 18 years of marriage. People rarely change. If your wife still loves you fantastic, if she can handle your gender issues whatever they may be even BETTER !!! I wish every person on this forum with a wife or SO can find happiness for both themselves and their SO. But if you are constantly butting heads over CD TG TS NB etc if you think it is going to change you are kidding yourself. You have to address the situation with each other openly and honestly. If you choose to stay and bury your thoughts feelings and hide your actions then at that point you have only yourself to blame if you have discussed it openly and honestly. If you have not done that... well that's your first mistake.

3. Teresa, AGP is not the PROBLEM IMHO. AGP is an issue far too complex and debated to go into in depth here. Your mention of it concerned me hence a brief mention. For those unaware AGP is a psychological theory that fantasizing about having a woman's body is a sexual fetish. This theory further states that transgender individuals fall into this diagnosis. Certainly all gender issues are not created equal however Teresa I implore you to examine AGP more closely and not pigeon hole yourself into believing you are just' getting off' by thinking about being a woman.
Please read this paper by Julia Serano on AGP and how it relates to TG https://learningtrans.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/serano-agreview-ijt.pdf

[Dana44]

Well indeed, If you are a girly CD MTGOW is not your thing at all. Gee why does a man feel trapped in a marriage. I have raised kids and in two marriages. It took me a long time to find an honest woman that accepts me for me. Any ways those men have a serious problem with women and society. All CD an girly girls here should stand against this funky misogyny as many of you do. I read their manifesto and thought gee, what lost men they are. But here we are girly girls. Right?

[Leslie Langford]

Thank you, Professor Veronica, for favoring me yet again with a lecture on the concept of the "standard interleaved style of quoting", it's origins, its applicability and its usefulness, as well as the practicality of using the "multi-quote" format as practiced on this forum.

Duh!

That was not my point; I have no issue with that method of responding to others' posts, and have used it myself where it makes sense. What galls me is the way you abuse that practice by occasionally targeting a particular person's post and then proceeding to pick everything they say apart line-by-line, assuming hidden or implied meanings where there are none, putting words in peoples' mouths (so to speak), and twisting words or phrases around to try to "entrap" them by assigning unintended meanings to them, thereby seeking to invalidate their arguments the way a cross-examining attorney tries to eviscerate a witness for the opposing side in a courtroom trial.

If that's what turns your crank and gives you sense of superiority, then go for it. Just be aware that there are always going to be some people out there who are willing to call you on your B.S., and I just happen to be one of those.

That said - and to Teresa's point as well as that of some of the others here - I never said that I was a fan of MGTOW per se, and certainly not of some of it's blatantly misogynistic adherents. But I can understand some of the frustrations - rightly or wrongly - that would drive some otherwise decent, yet wounded and scarred relationship-wise men into that camp and vowing to reclaim ownership for their legitimate rights within a given relationship, rather succumbing to manipulation or guilt to let their partner always getting their way just because they are trying to be "nice guys".

That's the parallel I was trying to draw in suggesting somewhat tongue-in-cheek that maybe we crossdressers could take a page out of the MGTOW Playbook in some of those respects and start a similar CDTOW movement to assert our rights to be our true selves, rather than submitting to asymmetrical DADT relationships where our wives or SO's hold this psychological power over us whereby they to try to repress our crossdressing for no better reason than we allow them too.

And yes, I do firmly believe that those of us who go along with DADT are basically just "nice guys" as well who don't want to make waves in order to maintain some acceptable level of marital harmony, as otherwise we wouldn't be in that position in the first place. And as the saying goes - and as we all know - "Nice guys finish last"...

[Zooey]

That's the parallel I was trying to draw in suggesting somewhat tongue-in-cheek that maybe we crossdressers could take a page out of the MGTOW Playbook in some of those respects and start a similar CDTOW movement to assert our rights to be our true selves, rather than submitting to asymmetrical DADT relationships where our wives or SO's hold this psychological power over us whereby they to try to repress our crossdressing for no better reason than we allow them too.

I'm sorry Leslie, but what in the actual F are you talking about? You are not trapped in a relationship. Your SOs hold no real power over you. You are free to leave, and deal with the consequences, as are they. You are afraid, and you don't want to lose anything. I understand those feelings, but they have literally nothing to do with reality. Your SO gets to decide what kind of relationship they will be in, as do you. If the relationship is not mutually agreeable, then it's a pretty crap relationship to begin with, honestly. Stop blaming your wives for the things (most of) YOU hid from them whey signed up for this.


And yes, I do firmly believe that those of us who go along with DADT are basically just "nice guys" as well who don't want to make waves in order to maintain some acceptable level of marital harmony, as otherwise we wouldn't be in that position in the first place. And as the saying goes - and as we all know - "Nice guys finish last"...

Horse shit.

Dear "Nice Guys",

Are you a "nice guy"? Do you take great pride in martyring yourself over all the great things you do for women? Do you expect a medal for NOT raping somebody or being a total asshole? Do you believe in the "friend zone"? Do you put women on a pedestal? Are you that guy who never asks a girl out because she's "just too perfect", but thinks that maybe if you're just nice enough then maybe she'll fall in love with you eventually? Do you constantly try to white knight your way into women's hearts, because you have the idea that women are delicate and just need to be saved1?

Guess what - you're not nice. Women don't owe you anything just because you're not literally the worst guy ever in your own mind. Women have a right to not be attracted to you, and conversely to be attracted to who they are attracted to. You're not paying off a mortgage on some future love you'll acquire when you do things for them. Some of the stuff you do is creepy as hell, and it's incredibly dishonest. Acting like a friend, when it's really all just part of some long-ass game you're playing? Bullshit.

I've dealt with your kind before. You're not nice, and stop pretending like it's women's fault for not falling all over you. The same principle applies once you're in a relationship, even if the details are different.

Nice guys don't finish last. You're just not nice guys.

BTW, I know a lot of you here have that last delusion1, because it's entirely evident in the way you dress yourselves and talk about women (and yourselves when "dressed"). It's sad, really, and far from true. Women don't need to be saved, we're not weak, and we don't need you. We want to be listened to, understood, loved, and cared for. Stop being nice guys to us, and start being HUMAN.

[PretzelGirl]

I am going to have to say, there is a lot of privilege here. If you can possibly think that women have more rights then you and feminism is a problem, then you just can't see how much privilege you actually have. And I agree with some of the posts. You can accept DADT and decide that you are willing to live with that, but don't call yourself trapped. Everyone has free choice, you just may not be choosing to exercise it. For those that choose it, that is great. But you are only trapped by your own doings.

[docrobbysherry]

To me DADT means u schedule your sessions when your "should be ex" is out and knows you're doing it! If she comes home early? Oh well!:straightface:

When I was living HSL, I totally stopped enjoying dressing it was so stressful!:doh:
Once we came to our DADT arrangement, she hides or leaves so she won't have to see me. Now, I enjoy dressing. I can't image how ANYONE can stand living very long with a HSL arrangement! That's not a marriage, it's more like you're a thief in the nite and she's the sheriff.:eek:

I'm not even going to dignify the other acronym mentioned with a comment. I'm may be sexist but that's ridiculous! :brolleyes:

[Meghan4now]

And women also have options. But let's be real, feeling trapped is common to both men and women. The feminist movement made a big deal about this in the past, and rightfully so. Why isn't it fair to acknowledge that men can be abused emotionally. By promoting the stereotype that men are somehow beyond emotional vulnerability, and can't be blackmaled, cowed or abused is hypocritical.

http://www.chicagonow.com/shades-gender/2015/04/why-do-angry-wives-stay-with-transgender-husbands/

There are many people that will read the above, and say "well of course, that poor woman" but every argument could equally be applied to a man, and every one will say "grow a pair"

[GBJoker]

I would have to vehemently disagree with the creation of a transgender or CD'ing group like the two mentioned in OP. It's a war that can't and won't be won. By any one.

[Suzanne F]

You know I can't even believe what I am reading here. I would love to just see a few of you dedicated men's right advocates show up to a local men's gathering in your best pencil skirt with your 5 inch heels with your new Sephora mulberry lip stain. I didn't believe it when TS women talked about how male cross dressers could be such male pigs. I just didn't believe that men who emulated women could have such opinions. Yes the average bubba who was scared to death of femininity but not cross dressers. But then agin these are men who are afraid that their buddies won't like them anymore if they know they like wearing panties.

Yes there are less than perfect females. God knows there are many more less than good men. Last I checked very few marriages are arranged in the US. How has the man become a victim to the calculating woman? I dare say he bears some blame in that situation. My wife is my equal partner. Equal is not a difficult concept. She had the choice to leave when I transitioned but chose to stay. We choose every day whether we want to be together. Neither is a victim. I respect her too much to believe she is a victim of my transition. She puts you bunch of whiny brats to shame!

[docrobbysherry]

Well said, Suzanne! If you're not happy? Husband or wife? Find the door and walk out! How can u keep making excuses while squandering your life? Not to us, we sympathize for 5 seconds and then move on.:straightface:

But, to yourselves!?:sad:

[Teresa]

This argument rumbles on in the background on the forum most of the time.

There are so many reasons to quit on a marriage as there are to try and retain one. This goading of cowardice or courage to walk out or not is ridiculous. DADT is not a good situation but it has to be put into context of all the other things that a marriage brings . I have to accept DADT because it's how my wife deals with my dressing , she still needs me as a husband to support her and hopefully bring some happiness into her life. Our children still need the support of both of us and we have grandchildren that have to be cared for when they go to work. I still have an 88 year old mother who is well at the moment but may need our support as she ages. I do accept I've openly said I live a double life , my wife has commented on that but to walk out would put a huge load on my wife's shoulders, whether you think I'm a nice guy or not I try and accept my responsibilities .
I believe I would be happier if we could separate but there are no guarantees , I'm sure there are as many regret that move as there are happy ones .

CDing is a no win situation someone is always going to be hurt , I don't believe anyone who says different. Some times I'm afraid it's good to have a rant about it , Leslie gave us that option with her OP . Ranting isn't a crime sometimes you have to let it out and the forum is often the only place where we can air those views.

I don't consider myself a nice guy but just a Mr. Average, my kids still love me and the feelings for my grandchildren would be greatly missed, but I can do nothing about the other feelings Cding brings , they all know that but don't fully understand. I could see the hurt on their faces when they thought mum and dad were going to split up , in the end I just couldn't do it to them.

[Suzanne F]

No worries if someone decides to stay. But don't blame it on the wife. It isn't feminisms fault if a man chooses to stay married to a woman who cannot witness her husband cross dressing. That has nothing to do with men asserting their lost rights!

[Zooey]

Exactly right Suzanne, in both your replies since mine.

[Teresa]

Zooey and Suzanne,
As far as I'm aware the OP wasn't about feminism, it was a suggested term to come to terms with DADT.

You chose to sidetrack the thread with the feminism angle , my comments refer to the OP about DADT. If you want to bang the drum again about feminism and misogyny why don't you start your own thread .

[Zooey]

Actually, this entire thread has been about misogyny, since well before I jumped into it. This thread, whether you choose to see it or not, is about a bunch of men in dresses hitching their wagons to/finding inspiration in an incredibly toxic and deeply misogynistic movement, so that they can feel empowered in continuing to blame their wives for things that are in no way, shape, or form their wives' fault. It is about a bunch of men who feel they're owed something, and who aren't willing to give anything up or change to get it.

It is the height of anti-feminism, and it is sad.

[Marianne S]

In view of the direction this thread has taken, I would like to offer

A MODEST PROPOSAL

I haven't even bothered reading this MGTOW thing, but I think much of the damage done by feminism and the sex war it's stirred up over the past generation, particularly the breakdown of marriage and family, could be cured with two very simple but radical changes. Not to mention quieting all this needless furor over gay "marriage" as well.

First, ABOLISH marriage altogether. Replace it by giving anyone who chooses the right to declare themselves "domestic partners" for tax and other purposes in any particular year.

That way, anyone who chose to could still be a stay-at-home housewife (or househusband) while the other partner works, and the couple could pool their income for tax purposes, thus retaining the financial benefits couples enjoy at present when one partner supports a non-earning partner. In fact they'd be better off than they are under today's tax code, whether both partners worked and earned money, or only one did.

The same system would work for gay couples, and not just "couples" either. Why shouldn't a son or daughter helping to support an elderly parent, say, pool their income and claim the same tax breaks? It would even work for a ménage Ã* trois, or indeed a ménage of any number. Other benefits could also be extended to one's domestic partners, such as the right to be included in a partner's health insurance plan.

But such an arrangement would only be continued as long as both partners chose to continue it. The abolition of marriage would also abolish the concept of "divorce" and everything that goes with it, such as "alimony" or "spousal support," "divorce settlements" and so forth. If anyone chooses to leave a domestic partnership, they walk away with whatever's theirs at the time, and that's it! Since feminism gave women the right to jobs and equal pay for the same work, marriage is no longer indispensable as it once was to support females economically. There's no reason why anyone, man or woman, shouldn't support themselves if they want to live alone. There's no reason why anyone should have to continue paying money to someone who has left and is no longer giving them anything of value in return, just because that person used to be a "partner" of theirs.

Second, ABOLISH so-called "child support." If anyone wants the PRIVILEGE of raising a child, they should either pay for it themselves, or arrange to secure and retain a partner who is willing to help them and support them in the endeavor. There's no reason why anyone should have to pay another person to enjoy the REWARDS of raising a child if they themselves are not permitted to enjoy the same pleasure of a live-in relationship with the child.

I think this scheme would have a salutary effect on our deplorably decadent society. There would be a revival of "marriage" (in the sense of true long-term relationships) by the kinds of couples who OUGHT to be married. That's to say, mature, caring couples who are actually capable of getting on with one another. More people who want to continue enjoying the benefits of a partnership will choose their partners wisely in the first place, picking someone they think they can get on with in the long term, instead of some narcissistic so-and-so who nevertheless has money they can rip off in a divorce. They'll also be more "on their toes" in their behavior toward one another if they want to continue enjoying the benefits of a partnership, which can otherwise be all too easily discontinued.

A great many people who ought NOT to be married will no longer do so, because they can no longer use marriage as a mechanism to exploit an ex-partner for unearned financial benefits. And a great many well-intentioned, loving people will no longer be AFRAID to form a partnership, as too many men are today, because they'll no longer be at the same risk of having both their children AND their money stolen by a predatory ex-partner.

As a bonus, more children will be raised by parents who OUGHT to be parents--that is, because they love and want the children for themselves, not just as a "meal ticket."

And wait, there's more! As an additional bonus, the whole rotten "divorce industry" will collapse. Hordes of greedy lawyers who encourage conflict and hatred by making money out of playing "Let's You and Him Fight" will have to find new jobs doing something that might actually be constructive and helpful to society, instead of destructive as it is now. Any takers?

[docrobbysherry]

I must agree Marianne. So much so that when I'm elected prez. I will pass a law requiring everyone must pass a test before getting married and another before having a child!:thumbsup:

And, Teresa? I see no reason u can't separate and still do EVERYTHING u list as reasons why u don't. I did. And, the looks on my children's faces were much happier when they saw how much happier I and my ex were living apart. Maybe yours will, too. U both can't fake happiness all the time. Kids know!:sad:

[Leslie Langford]

WOW!...Just WOW!, Zooey

That was one epic, breath-taking, misandrist rant that you just treated us to here in Post #46. It easily tops all of your previous diatribes on the same topic.

I never realized before in reading all of your past posts just what an anxiety-ridden burden true gender dysphoria must really be, and - as a trans woman - how much you clearly hated your former biologically male incarnation, causing you now feed obsessively on those past issues and insecurities to continuously bash the male population at large - be it "nice guys", "bad boys", or anything male in between. And then there are those pesky heterosexual crossdressers who inhabit the fringes of those two worlds and who are clearly nothing but whiny, shameless poseurs in your esteemed opinion, and who need to be put in their place and skewered at every available opportunity...

So tell us...feeling as you do, why do you insist on trolling the crossdressing forums to launch your occasional misandrist barbs as opposed to staying in that echo chamber of like-minded folks who populate the transsexual forums? Is this how you get your jollies and "rage against the machine"?

And while we're on the topic of exclusionary views and related actions...just curious?...what have the TERFs done for individuals like yourself lately to make you feel good about yourselves in the name of tolerance and inclusivity? Are you still standing there with your nose pressed against the window looking longingly inside, knowing full well that you will always be considered a persona non grata amongst that branch of the "sisterhood"? Or is it more a case of adopting the stance of comedian Grouch Marx, who one famously quipped that he would never join a club that would have him as a member?

[Zooey]

One, if you think that was actual misandry, you are out of your damn mind. Equitability is not misandry, and equality can clearly feel like oppression when you're the one who was always on top. Suck it up, buttercup.

Two, news flash - feminism is not TERFs. TERFs are an incredibly small radical (hence the R) branch of feminism, and they're unpopular amongst feminists (which drives them batty, just FYI). I will argue feminism with you once you actually learn what it is from a real source, not the red pill MRA bull-plop you've been citing.

You guys need modern feminism more than anybody else, and your resentment of it is frankly fascinating. Fascinating, and horrifying.

[XemmaX]

word! trans exclusionary radical feminists and their anti sex worker counter parts are not popular in the modern feminist movement.

[Suzanne F]

Teresa
Did you read the OP? Leslie brought up this men's movement and then bemoaned wives holding all the power in a DADT relationship. Then many men piled on and derided the feminist movement while again blaming their lack of freedom in their wives. I don't respond very much in this section but to me it required someone to point out the victim hood of a bunch of privileged males hiding in their closet. As far as Zooey I don't always agree but I respect her. She dared tell the world her truth with no guarantee of acceptance. Not many people in this discussion can say that.
Suzanne

[Marianne S]

Leslie, it's not worth wasting one's time arguing with anyone who insists on spouting the same old self-serving lie that men are somehow "privileged." It doesn't make any difference if feminists have been playing victim by claiming the same thing for fifty years; that still doesn't make it true! For thousands of years people insisted that "the sun goes around the earth," but saying so didn't make THAT true either--as Galileo for one pointed out.

Anyone who buys this nonsense about men being the "privileged" sex should educate themselves by reading, for instance, Warren Farrell's classic The Myth of Male Power (https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=sr_1_1), or Jack Kammer's excellent If Men Have All the Power, How Come Women Make the Rules? (http://www.revolucionantifeminista.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/how-can-women-make-the-rules.pdf) (which is available free).

For those men finding themselves stuck with a wife who refuses to accept their CDing, or some other aspect of their personality, it would all be fine and dandy if they COULD just walk away--losing nothing except a wife that they weren't getting on with anyway. But all too frequently the man who does that is punished by a law that far more often than not privileges the female to help herself to a chunk of his money that he earns and to take his children from him as well. Needless to say, that can also cripple his ability to find and set up home with a new wife who is better suited to him. No wonder men feel they can't afford to leave. Of course, this isn't just about CDing, and is a prime reason why so many men are avoiding marriage today. Abolish those female privileges and we'll have a more level playing field. The truth is that too many "feminists" today don't want "equality"; they want excuses to make females superior to men.

[PretzelGirl]

And while we're on the topic of exclusionary views and related actions...just curious?...what have the TERFs done for individuals like yourself lately to make you feel good about yourselves in the name of tolerance and inclusivity? Are you still standing there with your nose pressed against the window looking longingly inside, knowing full well that you will always be considered a persona non grata amongst that branch of the "sisterhood"? Or is it more a case of adopting the stance of comedian Grouch Marx, who one famously quipped that he would never join a club that would have him as a member?

Leslie, I am trying to process this. Either you are saying we are persona non grata among TERFs, to which I say good riddance, or we are persona non grata among women, which I say experience tells me different. I am not excluded from anything that I can tell. I am invited to all types of activities. So coming from my experience, life is good in transition and I am treated right as a women, by women, with women.

Marianne, you have a lot of hate built up. Either way, there are piles of proof that women are well behind men and still fighting. Making 78 cents on the dollar... Look at the cabinet and Congress..... Look at total CEOs in the Fortune 500.. I could go on and on. Anyone that says women are ahead of men are not looking at all.

[Zooey]

Not to mention (for example) how having insurance plans reliably covering birth control for women is apparently a big problem, but covering viagra is clearly necessary... Men have routinely ensured that they have agency over women's bodies in numerous ways that women have never had over men's bodies.

Incidentally, that same statement applies to trans women as well. My insurance is happy to cover any procedures that would make men more likely to have sex with me, but are apparently staunchly opposed to covering other things that would actually improve my condition.

[Marianne S]

Sue, I get rather tired of people who don't know me from Eve projecting feelings onto me that I don't have (such as "hatred"). I at least have been lucky in the marriage stakes. It's other men who have all too often been shafted by today's system.

The fact that more men are "making" the laws in Congress doesn't make a darn bit of difference when so many women VOTE and put those men in power, and politicians too often kowtow to what women want as a result. Even Karl Marx didn't make the mistake of overlooking dynamics like that.

As for this supposed "78 cents on the dollar," why on earth SHOULD women have the same average "earned" income as men when so many women don't choose to devote as much of their lives to paid employment as men do, and/or don't choose to do as many of the more demanding (and higher paid) jobs that more men do? There are plenty of female executives around, earning a lot more than most men do, but not as many women go for these jobs with the same singleminded devotion that so many men do. In politics too, far more women than men avoid running for high office, partly (though not entirely) because many women complain that the rough-and-tumble of campaigning is "too dirty" for them. They leave the "dirty" jobs to men! But if they don't want a "dirty" job, they can't expect to get paid for it, or have the public power and prestige that goes with it.

Society-wide, a far better basis for comparing income is to ask how much money women RECEIVE, on average, from ALL sources--not just alimony, divorce settlements, "child support" and the like, but all the money husbands and male partners routinely give their wives, which is massive. If a wife earns less than her husband, typically that difference is more than made up for by money that he gives her. That knocks that "78 cent" figure clean out the window.

In any case, why would anyone expect women and men to occupy identical roles in a society (in the same numbers) when the sexes are biologically different? If they did, it would mean one sex or the other, or both, is being "bent out of shape," against their collective natural instincts. A far more meaningful question is the one Jack Kammer asked in his e-book:

"Womenfirsters focus attention on who earns more money and who has what jobs, but a much more important question is who lives happier, more emotionally satisfying lives. Why don’t they ask that one?"

However, the fact that feminists (of what Kammer called the "womenfirster" variety) COMPLAIN so much is not an indicator that women as a whole are "less satisfied" with their lives than men are. It's because feminists just LOVE to complain, and all too often, men DON'T! More men prefer to be "doers" rather than complainers. Unfortunately that works to men's disadvantage in a modern society where "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." Men need to do more complaining, not less. Feminists, no matter how many concessions have been made to them, have never stopped finding more to complain about, and if there isn't anything, they'll invent something, as the following vintage quiz from a quarter of a century ago suggests:

Male Gender Bias Test (http://web.archive.org/web/19961220081308/http://www.vix.com/pub/men/articles/genderbiastest.html)

[docrobbysherry]

Marianne, I won't argue with u. I'm sure there r others here will do that sufficiently.

Let me just say, u must not live in Calif. Because in my divorce and many of my friends, both genders we're treated equally. Whoever makes the most money pays. Whoever wishes to take the children gets them. If a fair and equal exchange schedule cannot be decided by the couple or their attorneys, the court decides it for them. Based on their work, health, etc, schedules and availability for whatever reason. The gender of the parties involved is NOT a consideration.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I may not be much of a "man", I am rather gender nonconforming and have never been good at anything traditionally masculine. But, I am still male, and I am really tired of being guilt tripped and blamed for everything that befalls every women in the world. I don't have "dominion" over anyone, I barely have dominion over my own body. Just because someone has a penis doesn't mean they are a rapist, an abuser, or an oppressor.

And I am one of those nice guys. And every woman I ever did or was possibly going to be involved with knew about my dressing, I didn't lie or conceal anything... and I have spent most of my adult life alone. I have my own unique resentment.

And how much money one makes is not a lone indicator of quality of life. I think mothers do a pretty important job, that is just as important as any CEO of a corporation, if not more so.

[Becky Blue]

Wow what a thread, certainly some passion displayed by many here. I think MGTOW and CDGTOW are really bad ideas. As a guy I cannot in any way shape or form see why there is a need for MGTOW, does the world really need a group of guys banding together to help each other get protection from women???

As for CDGTOW, those of you in unhappy DADT marriages you have a load of options available. You could move on, you could try sort out the underlying problem that may well be unconnected to your CDing, or you could continue living that way. But in what way could a group of likeminded sufferers help each other or change the world in a better way. I could not see how CDGTOW would make the slightest difference to any unaccepting wife.

[KymberlyOct]

I am not going to go on a diatribe nor call anyone out by name. I have enough going on right now that I must admit I don't want to wholeheartedly enter this debate but I do have to ask one rhetorical question.

Why would anyone that either A. Feels their gender is feminine or B. Just fantasizes about being female - have so much disdain for the group they desire to be? Yeah call me out for not engaging. I don't have the energy or time right now. Just taking my pot shot from the peanut gallery but I think it's legit.

[Lorileah]

This has gone in several directions, I think we will close it down before someone gets hurt