Being Unmanly

[Rachael Leigh]

Its now been a week since my fabulous Las Vegas makeover and Im still thinking about how much I really enjoyed doing it. Being what I do now I consider myself a Trans-gendered person its so hard to explain this to anyone in how one feels doing something that would be considered so unmanly.
The experience of sitting there and learning how to make oneself look pretty is something you just cant explain to the normals, especially men.
This part of me and many of you is usually a life long struggle that seems to have no explanation or reason for being. It becomes a part of us usually at a young age.
Once we are adults and have a family it stays with us and many times it just gets in the way of ones family life but yet the desire or whatever remains.

Ive been to many a counseling session and while there have been a few moments that seem to help me think maybe thats why, mostly there is no reason and I finally realized it just is, and I just have to manage it the best I can.
Ive come to even read that most in the counseling world say there just isnt a right or wrong solution to those who are trans.

Im not sure why Im sharing these feelings here but I thought maybe it can help others with their thoughts as to where they are and how they feel when the things they do or enjoy are so far outside the realm of manhood.
Ive always considered this a place to share because we are so alike and yet so different.
I find myself wanting to meet everyone here and just being their friend when I see a post where you can tell their hurting or not dealing well with this
or their spouse has found out and they are now lonely or alone.
So let me hear your thoughts as to this thing we do, this unmanly thing that seems to be deep inside
Always your friend Rachael Leigh

[Cheryl James]

Your comment regarding how we feel about ourselves vs our love for our family really hit a nerve with me. I do know how I feel and how I wish I could present myself to the world on a daily basis. I, also, know how much I love my family. I see no way to reconcile the two without hurting my family (especially my grown children). The pain that I would feel should I alienate them would be unbearable for me. Managing as best we can expresses as you said is, also, my way of dealing with the friction caused by these competing needs.

[Tracii G]

All that I agree with.

[Maria Blackwood]

If you can't share here, where can ya? :) Keep sharing, sugar.

As for me, I'm very comfortable with my crossdressing. It decompresses me after a stressful day. Picks me up when I'm feeling down.

I've looked into a couple "feminatrix" services near me because the idea of some help with feminization combined with a little BDSM has an appeal, but their sites always go on about the humiliation and degradation aspect. Uh, no, that's what our hung up culture wants me to feel, and this girl ain't playing their negative head games, savvy? I'm going to send one of the dominas an email with these thoughts just to see what she thinks. I'll probably just wind up at one of the regular boutiques for makeup lessons.

How do you define unmanly anymore? What our dippy, bad acid trip of a culture considers manly has become a toxic stew of warring ideologies, pop culture iconography, historical revisionism, and hypocracy deeper than a mid-ocean trench, most of it just sound and fury signifying nothing objective.

Then there's the traditional bulwarks. Oh, you can't do this or that thing. That's girly stuff! That's unmanly. Big boys don't cry. That last one is a mostly recent (historically speaking) phenomena. It used to be fine for men to cry. All the great mythic male heros cried like waterfalls, their tears falling on their mightily hewn chests or soaking their epic beards. Why? Because it demonstrated that they gave enough of a bloody tinker's cuss about something beyond the range of their own foreskins to have an actual emotional response.

Well, that escalated quickly. Sorry. Had an emotional response. I'll man up now and get all stoic and stare ruggedly to the horizon. Hey, how 'bout that local sports team! Grrr! Bring more mead, tavern wench, so I may slappeth thine bottometh again.

[NewBrendaLee]

I know its a struggle for all of us , because we know that we were born in the wrong body. I too don't want to hurt my family or lose them

[CONSUELO]

Leigh,

I am so glad you had a great experience in LV. Why we are transvestites or trans gender or whatever is a great mystery. But don't think of yourself as being "unmanly". I really don't know what that term means as society's definition of what is manly or womanly has undergone great change over the last several decades and will continue to do so. You are still an honorable and responsible person who has tried to do the best thing and take care of family and other burdens. Remember that as you go onward with your journey.

[Teresa]

Leigh,
I don't think of it as being unmanly, it's just me and what I'm doing feels right. Dressing and makeup to be femme is becoming as natural as shaving and dressing as a man but obviously more enjoyable.
Counselling is really to help us see our problem more clearly and hopefully guide us into taking the right decisions . At times they don't have an easy job some are still reluctant to open up and accept the obvious themselves, others possibly like me can only advance so far because of DADT. It's very hard to work round it without making your partner appear to be the core of the problem. I wonder how many would resort to it if they were in fully open, accepting relationship, too many in another thread are advocating that you walk away from a DADT relationship . Many of us chose to stay for so many reasons, I guess one of them being we keep hoping the situation will get better because we are trying to avoid the harm and hurt we might cause.

[sharonsdream]

You brought up a subject that has no answer. I drove eighteen wheelers for almost 50 years. Occasionally I drove dressed. What a thrill.
Then there were times it called for all man. Other times the soothing time of dressing brought great relief. Several hours driving dressed always ended to soon.
People are more accepting now which helps.
I would love to dress when I desire but my family doesn't understand. I am expected to dress like a man. The kids are all gone now but always show up. My wife allows me to wear panties and support pantyhose. That helps but doesn't answer the question why do I like to dress for the world to see.
Hopefully my wife will go out to dinner as a girls night out someday but I am not holding my breath. It has been almost fifty years and I get panties and pantyhose. It is a deep question and I am not sure there is an answer. I have no desire to be a woman but enjoy dressing like one sometime.

[Julie MA]

Rachael Leigh,

I don't see "unmanly" as anything wrong or as an insult. Of course societal conditioning causes many to undervalue feminity as weak. It is not. Look at the power women have over men in general. Look at how highly the members on this forum value women and feminine things. Yes, we have to deal with the glacial pace of gender role change acceptance, potential ridicule, harm, and negative impacts on our lives. But that doesn't mean we are wrong. Instead we are pioneers. I have three young children who are well educated in better acceptance of all gender preferences, races, religions, etc. While we may not live to see it, CDing will be completely accepted one day.

Julie

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Leigh:hugs:, It is really hard to try and explain yourself to someone that don't understand where we are coming from...:daydreaming:...


I like line #2 in my signature as an analogy !

[Stephanie47]

I think "it" is a problem with many of us because "it" is a problem with the people around us. Society dictates the norms and expectations of each sex. If you're as old as many of us and think back to the 1950's and 1960's the norm was for a woman to stay home and take care of the kids. If she did have employment outside of the home it was in "traditional" fields clearly identified for women. Ever she a male nurse back then? I never did. If you go back to the 1940's or specifically the World War II years women broke down the employment barriers and worked in war production factories. Now women are readily breaking down more and more fields in medicine and math and sciences. And law too!

Sometimes I think gender bias is ingrained in DNA. There is still a requirement to reproduce otherwise the species will eventually die out. Anything behavior which seems to stand in the way of reproduction seems to be scorned. If I were a guinea pig in an experiment to assess my manly attributes I would score at 100% until my "secret" were to be exposed.

Oh well, maybe it's time to slip into the new Apt 9 dress I received this week.

[sweetdreams]

I've wrestled over the years about the question of why. The simplest answer I've come up with is I don't know the root cause or how it came to be but if I get up in the morning and have the option of wearing men's shorts or a pair of panties, I know in my heart which ones I'll pick. It's at the essence of me. I didn't wake up in the morning and logically think "I have a good idea, let's put on some girls underwear." It bubbles up through me. It has all of my life. It's like a moth attracted to a flame, irresistible.

As for manly, I don't even think about this anymore. I'm just being me. I can do manly things and be one of the boys. I can get dressed up and be girly too. It's more of a blend these day rather than kind of bipolar. I wear panties 24/7 so even in my male mode, it isn't pure male. Sometimes I underdress with more, and sometimes I wear a dress depending on the circumstances. I gracefully slide one way or the other or sometimes just straddle the fence. Generally I do what feels right for the time and place.

[Sallee]

Interesting comments I guess I don't really get it. But let me guess. You are considering making yourself look pretty as a woman Unmanly correct. Well, it is unmanly for a man. But if you were presently yourself as a man and trying to make yourself look pretty or good looking would it be unmanly then? Say a haircut and a shave, eye brows and nose hair trimmed, new shirt and pressed pants. I don't think that would be unmanly for a person presenting has a man.
Now getting a makeover, which I love, as a transgendered person that's, to me, is OK and it is certainly ok has a woman and not manly. With makeup now being marked for men I think that a man makeover will no longer be unmanly and if men like makeup to make themselves look better, cool, then it wouldn't be unmanly.
Anyway just have fun and don't put to much thinking into it

[Tama]

You have answered one long standing question actually..There IS no reason. This has never been a topic of any of my many (yes, I've worn a few out) counselors but, I often wondered about that very question...Thanks Leigh

[Kandi Robbins]

Rach, well said. Today I bought a great dress at a thrift store. It is absolutely adorable, but I was a bit concerned about the fit as I didn't have the ability to try it on, so I gambled and bought it. I got home and did my twice weekly complete body shave and went to try on the dress. This is not hyperbole, it literally took my breath away. There is this feeling I cannot properly describe. I was home alone and had a quick conversation with myself in the mirror (we all talk to ourselves, don't we?). The joy I was feeling, the happiness, the satisfaction with my appearance, I told myself that there is nothing I could possible do as a man (outside of family interactions) that would make me THIS happy. Think about it. Yes, I enjoy the man I am. I do many manly things and have many friends. But this is different and as you stated, simply unexplainable. To me, "manliness" is having the courage to be who you are, at the same time to love and protect your family. To live the truth as best we can.

[Becky Blue]

It is certainly a diverse world even in here. Leigh it seems as if accepting who you are has been a struggle for you in the past, and it seems like your makeover experience was life changing.

Speaking for myself, when Becky emerged it was as if a part of me had awoken. I have never felt that dressing was unmanly, but more expressing the female side of me. Is there a reason? Of course! Do we know the reason? No not really. Does it matter? Well that really depends on the individual, in my case no, but for others it is a big question.

How we feel about ourselves as 'trans' people... well I believe that Becky has made me a much better person in so many ways, she is a gift that has enriched my life.

[Alisonforme]

That's the biggest issue I have with my SO...she doesn't ever want to see me dressed because she's afraid it will ruin her image of me as a man and make me unattractive to her. I don't want that to happen, so I'm OK keeping a DADT relationship alive as long as I have time to let my girl out. Sometimes I wish I could tell others, but then I'll hear a story of how difficult it is for people who live a TG lifestyle (which I don't want to do) and I realize that the people around me would see me as a freak. When the pink fog hits, though, I feel like I don't care who knows and I have to watch myself!

[Aunt Kelly]

Rachael, I appreciate your sharing your feelings on this. I've grappled with similar feelings and finally just decided to stop looking for explanations. I am who I am and I enjoy being pretty. Well, relatively pretty. :) I am aware of the incongruity of it all, and just don't care, beyond observing certain boundaries for social and professional reasons. I'm OK with that too. I don't hate my male self, and can move easily between the two expressions with (almost) no trauma, but I prefer feminine. If there were a label for that, I'd use it, but I wouldn't "wear it". As you say, we're all different and boxes never quite fit anyone.

And I know what you about wanting to reach out to those who are hurting or unsure. I don't know about you, but will probably always feel the need to pay forward the gifts of support and guidance I've received. With some of the sadder stories, it doesn't seem like enough though, not by half.

Great thread. Thanks.

Hugs,


Kelly

[GretchenM]

Leigh,

I think the concept of "manliness" is a hybrid concept that tends to link sexual identity with the traditional and stereotypical view of what "manliness" looks like in terms of gender identity. It is easy to think that expressing your feminine gender, whether that gender identity is partial and shared or is complete, is in conflict with your sex and what is expected of people of that sex. Thus, it becomes "unmanly." But if one sets aside those traditional and stereotypical expectations and thinks of gender identity and sexual identity as being much more separate, the concept of manliness in terms of how you as an individual are configured will not make much sense anymore. Then expressing your feminine identity, whether it is with dressing or mannerisms or thinking style, becomes more acceptable to yourself. You become more comfortable with being what your feelings and perhaps your intellect tell you.

This style of conceptualizing our gender identities, no matter what they are, allows a person to be more individualized and more themselves. Some will disapprove because they are locked into the stereotypical thinking and anything that deviates from that "holy standard" makes them uncomfortable. If they would follow a way of thinking that sets aside the stereotypes and allows individualism to come out they would then understand a little more about why you (we) do what we do even though it is a bit "unusual" relative to the social standards and expectations of what constitutes normalcy. That also allows them to accept you more easily and that makes it even easier for you to accept who you are. And nothing is really given up by changing the conceptualization because the concept of "manliness" is pretty much a synthetic concept designed to create more social uniformity. Manliness seems to have some genetic foundation, but it appears to be highly generalized and is of a guideline than a genetically founded imperative. Nothing wrong with that except that in a world of high diversity individuals it squelches individualism and individualistic creativity and expression. Ultimately, that is harmful to the progress of the human condition. That said, individualism and its expression can also be harmful if it is disruptive. Thus, in this world, the ethically comfortable state is defined by an acid test of "does it do harm or inflict actual damage on the free and fair individualism of others." If the basic unit of society is the individual then it follows that anything that squelching individualism that is not only harmless but inventive and innovative is contrary to what is best for social progress and evolution. If it does not do harm then it is ethically acceptable with regard to society. But hurting somebody's position on what is proper is not actual damage because that person is likely infringing on a harmless individuality of someone else and that is where the ethical conflict is founded. In conclusion, we, with a few intersex exceptions, are male or female sexually, but the individuality of our gender and its expression is comparatively independent of sexual identity and should be allowed to be expressed as the individual desires provided the "do not harm" test is complied with.

Gretchen

PS: Sorry about the philosophical discussion of ethics and the role of gender. Easiest way to express a very complex subject.

[Brookf89]

I've gotten to meet quite a few girls from here and they're always genuinely loving sweet people. I always have so MUCH fun every time I get to be around them 😊

[suzanne]

Maria said it best, I think, when she wrote:

"How do you define unmanly anymore? What our dippy, bad acid trip of a culture considers manly has become a toxic stew of warring ideologies, pop culture iconography, historical revisionism, and hypocracy deeper than a mid-ocean trench, most of it just sound and fury signifying nothing objective."

This "manliness" paradigm holds that the greatest crime a man can commit is to be feminine, especially in the clothing department. I listened to a morning drive time radio program where they described a man who was extremely drunk. He was incoherent, passing out, talking abusively and exposing himself. This was all discussed with a light "boys will be boys" air. When it came to the part where he was wearing pink lingerie, well THAT was the moment when he went too far.

I think we are making progress in pushing back against toxic manliness, but there's still a long way to go.

[Tama]

Wow..is all I can say...I went to re-read these posts, and it's was well worth the time invested... I am rarely at a loss for words, think it has been expressed very well...at least from my vantage point.. I Thank you for the considerable time and effort invested in these thoughts. I should write some of this down for future use

[Rachael Leigh]

I've got to say I'm very happy with all these great responses to this post, I was surprised that so many do understand kinda
my thinking but yet we all have our own thoughts and a lot is based on our own circumstances

I do accept myself as a man I know I can't change that yet my feminine side has grown stronger over the year. Once self
acceptance came about it made it easier for me to let the girl out so speak and that mostly comes in the form of just getting out and mingle with the normals.
My friend Kandi on here so understands that if you do get out there don't be afaide of your shadow so to speak because
while that shadow might look a bit manly you know inside who you are and for me I'm just a person like anyone I'm not
someone to fear I'm just me. If that means I'm not always manly then that's ok.

Please keep your thoughts coming I love reading them all
Rachael

[Meghan4now]

Leigh,

First off, great post. All of it. I get what you're saying, but that tie to manliness just seems so less important now. As we age, we have less impulse to prove ourselves. We have been there, done that. Found the good and the bad from it. In my "man" life, I feel like I have let a lot of the abitrary definitions go. Guess what? I eat quiche, I cook, I sew, I do the dishes, I get choked up at stupid sappy movies, I occasionally cry, I hug people both guys and gals, I share discussions of a multitude of topics other than sports, beer and hunting. I have constructive things to say about fashion, I listen to people expressing their feelings, and encourage them to do so. But none of this do I believe precludes me from being a man. Granted, not a lot of men get so much joy from affecting a woman's appearance and mannerism, but so what?

Maybe we just don't care as much any more. Maybe we just want to "be"

Finally, I want you to know that you are one of my first friends here. That is a testament to you and the care, support and love that you give us. If ever I get the chance to meet you face to face, it would mean the world to me. You are kin to me, in more than one way. Brother, Sister? What ever makes you happiest!

[Tama]

Rather than re-quote anything said, suffice to say that I too sew, do dishes, most things you mentioned in your last response..Interestingly, I never thought anything of those things..At least now, I give them more credence. I am grateful to read your opinions on that. I think it's important to be reminded of this now and then. Thanks

[GretchenM]

Leigh,

Your last post seems to me to show a healthy view of your identity. And the question posed by Suzanne regarding the definition of "manly" is a good one. It really is a loaded term with no clear definition. The important thing is that you seem to have largely accepted yourself as well as the fact that you will never really look or experience life as a GG. That has always been an issue for me. IMHO I think a lot of our views of what is manly or girlie or womanly or whatever is based on stereotypes. You can only be you, but the you is always changing, adapting, learning. Sometimes the journey is much more important than the destination and we tend to experience life in a very different way than our CIS companions; but their lives are different from ours. By getting out and sharing we all gain more and more understanding. Gaining comfort with our differences is a process and a state of comfort is a moving target with no clear definition or end point.

Gretchen

[Fiona123]

I have just started with a gender therapist & consider myself transgender. I hate the concept of manliness, "manly" is not me. I would like to present as more feminine. Being manly is a construct which is imposed socially and is part of the gender dissonance/dysphoria I experience. Making yourself pretty is just a way of taking care of yourself.

[Stacy Darling]

I'm not sure if I'm on the same page, not for trying I tell you! Unmanly to me is sort of what I've been through, high stress heavy industry job by day, housewife by night. Now just a housewife.

I AM a part time Girl now but still know that I am also more of a "Man" than most so called men.

Feel lucky that I have lived the life of a hard man before becoming a woman, feel like I can appreciate it more.

JUST be Womanly, it's much more fun.

[Lauri K]

I never felt "manly" my whole life so I cannot relate, other than to say that society has had a hard time breaking away from preconceived roles / traditions being held either by M or F which is totally bunk but still persists today in some form or fashion.

Being manly at least where I live is to have 4 wheel drive truck jacked up w/ yeti sticker in the window and a ball sack hanging from the bumper hitch.

And being unmanly is to drive a mini-van to the grocery store.

These are poor examples, but yet it is how things get looked at or so it is here in the south. And I profess that a piece of machinery certainly cannot define your sexuality or gender but yet old stereotypes still live on.

Be yourself and live in you own skin, you will wear yourself out trying to understand this atrocity of gender role specificity that society tries to keep on life support.

[phili]

Someone pointed out to me that the manliness I am trying to escape is just the particular manliness imposed on me during my gender training, and my detailed compliance with it for safety, and the way what I wanted to do and be was pushed so deep I couldn't feel anything any more- just Dr. Spock type of logic for everything.

See the short film online [free] The Mask You Live In- to remind you of what happens to little boys everywhere. Some escape some or all of this, and they are men and manly, and kind, soft, emotional, etc. but I don't easily see them- I am wrapped up in the demands of so long ago.

Now I finally am letting myself be the person I wanted to be, and I am a man, and can easily see that the cultural standards of manly or womanly are imposed and arbitrary- with some slight justifications in biology- we are stronger, women are more valuable to reproductive success, etc. But none of these justify the pain inflicted on men and women to conform with things that are restrictive emotionally, in relationship and career, etc.

I told my wife- crossdressing is a an easily achieved bandage for a thousand cuts- and a door through which the self beckons us. We are male or female or intersex, but our emotional state and relationship style are independent and need to be freed. The makeover is the ultimate crossdressing experience, I am sure! I'm curious whether I would suddenly be able to smile beautifully as I see in so many Boy/Girl mode transformations. It would be worth shaving my beard if I did! I don't relish all that shaving, however, so I'm trying to make a go of manly is sometimes girly, and so far the world seems fine with that-" Oh- girly man- well ok- no big deal" and I get to feel released and a whole new person as a man. So in other words, it no longer matters that I am a man rather than a woman- I can feel what I really feel and be the person I want to be in relationship with others.

The last person to enjoy this will be my wife, who is so fearful of what it means for a man to pull up his anchor in man culture and symbology- where will we drift to??? is her question. I say, we will sail, not drift, and enjoy the trip, and the natives will be friendly. But she is mistrustful. I think in her case I need to accept that her connections with dresses and the cultural gender rules and enforcements are so deep that she may never be able to see me as her husband and a dress in the same frame.

I also find that going out in a dress really satisfies a deep longing and yields a lot of personal growth- so in some sense I may be able to forgo it after a while, once I have found myself. Perhaps, like watersliding, wearing dresses and can be a good memory and something I don't have as intense a need for.

[Joanne Curl]

I struggled for along time with the unmanly guilt of being a crossdresser. After years of self loathing and guilt I finally came to terms with it. I'm a crossdresser, just as I'm a husband, father, son and a man. I also accept that its not something I can change. Whether I get the chance to spend time as my femine self or not, its still there, still part of me, part of who I am that I don't get to share enough.

[DIANEF]

I wouldn't class myself as manly or girly, probably something in between or a blend of the two, I don't know. When dressed I do sit and walk differently (with heels obviously) but most other things are unchanged. As Diane I'll still sit and watch the football or in drab a good weepie, and I'm just as capable of rebuilding a car engine as altering a hem line. More importantly, to me it really doesn't matter, what anyone I know thinks of the way I do anything is of little concern to me.

[JeanTG]

I've done the "manly" thing for too many years as a mask. I no longer feel the need to. I also did the "outgoing, team-player" thing at work for too many years even though I'm introverted and prefer to work on a problem alone. Now semi-retired I work for myself and I do work I can do alone from home. It sure is nice to not have to pretend anymore. The nice thing about being over 50 is not having to live up to others' expectations. I am what I am!