Imagine your reaction as an SO?

[Tamsin Secret]

I was just thinking (which is always dangerous!) for those of us still in the closet.
What do we think our reaction would be if the shoe (or heel) was on the other foot and we stumbled across posts that our SO had put on a site like this?

How would we react/feel (if we were the unknowing)? How would we approach our SO if we thought or had worked out it was our other half?

I would like to think I would be open minded but that's because I know what I do myself... Its interesting as I have only had this thought since joining here.

It's a good way of understanding some of the hurt and shock other people have reported their Wives/GF's/SO's reactions to them telling them about 'The Big Secret' or being discovered.

Just a thought but I would be interested to hear peoples opinion x

[Mafalda]

I've been thinking about it many times. It wouldn't be something easy, it would be disturbing, probably I wouldn't like to hear about it. I know that I would find the way to accept it, but only because it's part of someone that I love. My acceptation will be an outcome of deep love.

[Julie MA]

Miss Secret, so I see a picture of my wife on the FtM crossdressers page dressed in men's clothes. Hmm, A. since she doesn't dress very feminine it wouldn't be a stretch. And B. Since FtM cross-dressing is quite common and accepted, again, no big concern. Given A and B, I can't imagine why there would be any reason to hide it. So my question to her would be why was she hiding it? Doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison to our MtF CD situation. But I see your point. Julie

[Marianne S]

I think it's an excellent question to ask, MissSecret. What if our wives appeared to be turning into men? I'll be surprised if more people haven't asked themselves this question, because it is so helpful with understanding.

[Stephanie47]

OK Julie, But! What if the visual was the application of a mustache and beard and a rolled up sock to simulate a penis? Strap down the boobs. My wife totally lost interest in any bedroom play which involved me wearing a nightgown when she realized there was some unknown mind play going on. She cannot understand why a man would wear a bra when he has nothing to "pack into it" as she said.

If I encountered postings of my wife pretending to be a man, anatomically and cosmetically, I'd figure there is something that needs to be discussed.

[Julie MA]

My wife went into attack mode one night and asked me those very questions. My reply to her was that we would discuss the specifics of her situation. Gender identification, sexual orientation, desire to dress, desire to transition, where would she want it to lead. Maybe I am too scientific about it, but I would look at it as another interesting facet of my wife and help her with it. Would our marriage change? Yes. How would it end, I don't know. But I wouldn't be afraid to take the journey with her. I think being a crossdresser already, I couldn't help but be understanding and accepting. A surprise? Yes. Julie

[TrishaTX]

I know me and if I loved someone and they filled most of the things in my life, I don't see how I could judge. If it were all the time, like a full transition I think that is different. The amount of time I spend doing it, would be more than acceptable.

[JeanTG]

My wife is already a crossdresser. The other day she was in a lumberjack shirt, jeans and a down vest. LOL!

[ronda]

I feel that if your love is what it should and that is unconditional none of that should matter as long as you love each other you can be happy and stay as you are understanding of each others needs but most of use can not or do not love unconditionally we are afraid that others will judge us and our SO and that is more important then our love

[docrobbysherry]

I don't have to image! My daughter, after years of my asking, finally explained why she disliked my dressing so much.

She said, "How would u like to have seen your dad in a dress and makeup?"

Got me rite between the eyes!:doh:

[Teresa]

Sherry,
I try not to think of that vision , it wouldn't be a pretty sight !

Seeing your partner dressed totally different may be the problem, trying to deal with the unexpected . You tend to think WTF before knowing why and by then your mind can't accept the explanation. I know people comment that their wives CD all the time and it does appear unfair that we can't openly do the same thing.

I guess looking at it from the other point of view I would wonder why my wife would have a thing about wearing Y fronts, I can't think of anything worse !

[bridget thronton]

Her body - she is free to dress as she likes - will not affect how I feel toward her

[GretchenM]

I think this is an excellent question. Because gender reversal can occur in anyone then it is effectively no different with FTM or MTF. However, I don't think wearing men's clothes is any different than men wearing women's clothes. At least on the surface. And of course it is more acceptable for women to wear men's clothes than the other way around, but that, to me, is just stereotyping. The real question is whether there is actually some degree of gender reversal relative to the traditional view of gender. A woman bricklayer is not gender reversed if she still identifies as feminine/female and dresses like other bricklayers on the job. But if there is an internal sense that she is masculine/female or even masculine/male that is a different matter. The sense inside has changed from the traditional arrangement found in our culture. If she believes she is, so to speak, "a man trapped in a woman's body" then we have gender reversal.

Personally, I can't actually say how I would react. You really need to be there to know for sure how you would react. And it would depend on how I personally identify. If I was strong masculine I might react very badly. But if I am mild or moderately masculine I might react with a need to understand what it is all about. If I was like I am now, somewhat gender reversed, I would think, "Wow, this is going to get interesting." So it is not only a matter of what she is doing with respect to cross-dressing or expressing some degree of gender reversal. It also depends on how you are in terms of gender and how important gender expression is in your mind. And then, insert the matter of love and the equation changes again. I would hope that I would be accepting and curious rather than, "You lied to me and I don't approve of that kind of thing. I want you to stop it right now or else. And if you can't stop don't ever let me see you dressed like that." Would I be that way? I hope not, but then ...

[phili]

Sherry,
I guess looking at it from the other point of view I would wonder why my wife would have a thing about wearing Y fronts, I can't think of anything worse !

This was my most discouraging vision- in that it seemed so difficult to accept. I think this gets to the heart of a big part of the cognitive dissonance for our SOs, along with the question about seeing one's father in a dress and makeup.

First, the Y front is literally tailored for the male anatomy- and our SO doesn't have that. We will of course ask why the interest in this underwear, as opposed to boxers which are more generally male but not soooo specific? I think the answer applies to many of us- it is exactly because the specificity of having male anatomy that is seen as triggering permission for a host of male related privilege- you can manspread and mansplain!! Seriously, this is why the bra seems so strange and unnecessary to SOs- a dress maybe, but a bra??? So, since as a CD I have travelled this road, I would say, honey, I hate Y fronts, but I am giving you total permission to be as manly as you dream- throw your weight around, ignore my requests for help, and look stolidly indifferent about everything but sports and cars and guns. Try it- see how you like it. And lets go shopping to find something manly enough for you and still appealing to me for you to wear!

And yes, put an artificial bulge in your pants and check it out- it has become a symbol for you of manliness. Wouldn't you like to feel the manliness is yours even without the bulge down there?

Re seeing Dad- this gets to the archetypal role for parents- the adam and eve, the male and female poles of gender- and we can't imagine dad in a dress because then where is the male pole? It's all muddled and what is a child to learn? But this is created by the way males and females are socialized farther an farther apart, and has been answered in real life. Children are much more bilateral and non binary than adults, and if dad and mom both enjoy dresses and makeup, and their friends don't ostracize them- it all works fine. Kids learn from their parents, and confirm with the neighbors, or vice versa. Few communities exist where you are not mistreated if your parents are not gender mainstream, however. So we CDs wisely don't subject our kids to that- it is not the CDing, it is the cultural violence that will be inflicted on them.

Back to our SO in drag- we are able to understand exactly, because we are that person- but our SOs are still way back in the cultural training zone and feel happy with it- there are dads and moms, and they are one of the moms- whether they choose to have kids or not. If we reveal we want to be a mom- they are going to say, most of the time- no- that is my space, and we have to keep it my space or the world will collapse in a heap.

Luckily, I am telling myself these days, people are still kids and we get through all sorts of dissonant situations as kids. They are hard to remember, but time marched on and we get carried along by the flow of events. So we and our SOs will muddle along somehow, with good days and bad.

[Jaylyn]

I have thought many times that my wife isa crossdresser also. I did mention it to her once. We both have a set of over hauls that wear to the farm. They are identical. She also has hunting and fishing shirts that are the male type. She wears pants as much as I do she thinks they are more comfortable than a dress. She hates bras, but wears one in public. During winter she has some red flannel type bed clothes top and bottom. She bought hers at a women's sore in the mall, I have an almost identical set that I bought from the men's department in Walmart. Both are nearly the same. Hers has a ribbon to tie the bottoms up mine has a flat soft cord and an button to undo to pee. That's the only difference.
Women do cross dress all the time. I've seen sloppy people wearing their pjs to stores and sometimes the men and women have on the same looking pjs.
In work attire I've seen office women wearing neckties and white shirts, but if a guy wore a nice skirt and blouse with hose and heels they stick out.
I love my wife and she does crossdresser in her work and wears jeans identical to males. She found out she can go to the boys section and get them cheaper.
I have to be open minded as she saves me money there..... Socks are he same especially when she wears her boots.
The Columbia fishing shirts are identical except she has one that is pink the rest are white or blue. When we are at the coast the only difference is she's the one in the bikini with a white fishing shirt thrown over the top.
I don't love her less cause she cd's. We agreed for better or worse, in good times and bad, so I guess since we have been together for almost fifty years we just might make it.
If she told me she wanted to transition then might be harder to accept.

[sometimes_miss]

The problem with this question is, you're preaching to the choir.

[mikayla1964]

I'm no expert but how can you get a true honest answer from any of us.. We are already living the situation in reverse. we already know how the so would feel so we would be more accommodating .j mop

[sherri]

If I was a straight, strictly hetero, strictly binary husband/boyfriend I think it would be a problem, especially if she wanted to transition full-time. As a less-than-straight CDer, I could see some interesting relationship dynamics developing from the gender swapping worth navigating for mutual fulfillment, although I might feel a sense of loss cuz I love GGs so much. Maybe we would need to agree that for a number of practical reasons we should both to keep the gender swapping on a part-time basis. Either way, I would be concerned and more than a little upset about the secrecy, which would probably make me question the stability and trustworthiness of our relationship. We would both need to work on that.

[Katie01]

It is such a double standard but when I see a woman dresssing up and acting as a man I always wonder what they get out of it. I feel so hypocritical! Of all people, I should understand better.

[Sharon B.]

I wouldn't have a problem with it my love for my spouse would take over and I would do whatever to make them happy.

[char GG]

Jean TG
Just felt like chiming in here. Most women who wear jeans, lumberjack shirts, down vests, etc, are NOT crossdressers. They don't try to pass as men. They don't get offended if people call them the "other gender". This is no longer the 1900's or the 1950's. Women dress in pants for various reasons, fashion, comfort, the main reason in the North is for warmth! So, you can think what you want, of course, and you can justify your actions by comments like that. Most women are not on a website carrying on about how wonderful it is to be a "man" just because they wear jeans (and a lumberjack shirt).

[JeanTG]

char GG I was being a bit facetious. Fact is though, my wife doesn't project much femininity in her clothing choices. She has professional reasons for that so I don't love her any less for it, but I have to admit that it is NOT a turn-on, and she knows it. Fortunately she doesn't wear it to bed, but still, she certainly doesn't dress to please me even outside of her professional activities.

I realize men and women are different and dress in the clothes of the opposite gender for different reasons. I never nag her about her less than feminine dress, I just wish she'd cut me a bit more slack for my dressing (she knows... DADT), whatever the reasons for it. It's not directed at pissing her off, it is a very necessary part of my identity. If it turns her off I can understand that and won't dress in front of her, but I don't want to have to sneak around either, hide my stuff in secret places, etc.

[Cheryl T]

I've always been open to people who are different and accepting of them.
I would first remember that this is the person I love and that this is part of them. I'd ask questions and try to learn more about it without be judgemental.

[CarlaWestin]

I don't have to image! My daughter, after years of my asking, finally explained why she disliked my dressing so much.

She said, "How would u like to have seen your dad in a dress and makeup?"

Got me rite between the eyes!:doh:

Interesting. When I showed my Daughter a picture of her Father in a dress, she thought it was fabulous!

[Lily Catherine]

We live the situation in reverse ourselves, so it's hard to properly imagine how it's like on the other side. We can only empathise at best. I for one have no choice but to accept it, even if it's merely crossdressing to them. Needless to say, I would have to find out the specifics from them.

I think it's easier for your typical MtF CD to see themselves as attractive than to see their crossdressed SO's as attractive members of the opposite gender as well, so I assume that the SO is unlikely to rate the CD as attractive as the latter thinks themselves.

This being said, I am voluntarily single and celibate. This is one of the reasons. I hope I should not be surprised to encounter this exact scenario - to find out my boy/girlfriend crossdresses. There and then, will I have any choice but to accept their situation in the naïve hope that they will mine?

[LilSissyStevie]

I'd say, using my best Mae West imitation, "Is that a pickle in your pocket or are you glad to see me?"

[StephanieM]

I think this is a good thread. Trying to imagine how our wives or SO feel about this, and imagining how we would react if the tables were turned.
You pretty much have to put a gun to my wife's head to get her to wear a dress, and I'm fine with it. The rule at our house is wear what makes you feel good and comfortable.
We have dressed as opposites for Halloween before and it was fun.

[Tamsin Secret]

:bighug:Thanks all for your input. It really was a question that when thought about is no more obsurd than the situation I find myself in.

Is the question flippent? Yes
Is the question deep? Yes
Is it feesable to want to understand what our SO's feelings maybe? Yes

Honestly I will never try to ask questions that provoke or warrant defensive answers more completely (and maybe nievely) open my own personal mind to the greater good for comment good or bad.

I'm really benefiting from joing this group and learning an awful lot about people and their experiences.

I am inquisitive, always will be, I also think that a big part of my personality is shaped towards seeing things from the other side of the fence in all sorts of situations and this has always served me well.

The question is genuine in its simplicity. Please don't think otherwise as it was meant mearly, as I say above, as a way to open up my random thinking for others to peer into for a second.

In life we rarely get the opportunity to put our personal thoughts out for opinion but for me this forum is allowing that in a way I have never thought possible on this private feature of my life.

:-*

Miss S

[Meghan4now]

Miss S,

You should not have to feel like you need to defend your question, it is a reasonable one. Even if it has been asked before.

Char's input is correct, and it is funny how often and widely we see that, "Well women crossdresser all the time"

No, not really. True crossdressing involves wearing the "opposite" genders clothing with the intent of crossdressing. So just wearing flannel and jeans doesn't cut it. I have a gay niece, and she has adopted a much more butch appearace, including (gasp!) Shirts that button on the Wrong side! I'll ask her if she thinks she's a crossdresser, but I think I already know the answer.

Anyway, with the whole binding packing imagery in mind I will say:
It depends on her intent and her actions. If she is just doing it part time, and even to get in touch with her inner man, but still loves me and wants to be with me, well ok. If she wants to become a man, or doesn't want to share the bed with me, then we may have a problem.

I would prefer she stay smooth and feminine, but if she let her leg and armpit hair grow, well then I would insist she learn french.

[JenniferR771]

Good point about my father, Sherry.
Just try to imagine how your mother would have felt about your father if he were wearing a dress.
Imagine when you first met your wife--would you have been attracted to her if she only wore pants? Never wore makeup? If she had short hair? Shaved head? Hairy legs? Chest reduction surgery? I am not sure I could have coped with it--if this happened the year after we were married. If two people are living together--it helps if they find each other attractive. At least one of them should know how to cook.
Did you ever live with your brother? Fun, right?

[ClosetED]

My wife bought a fake beard and mustache and tried the reverse psychology - she wanted to be the man and have me kiss her with the facial hair on. Despite the fact I was not trying to have sex with her dressed, just girlfriend status. But I see her point. I told her I would just see the person and not the outward appearance. She cannot separate them.
As to seeing my father in a dress - if I saw how truly happy he was in that dress and makeup, then I would be happy for him. He put up with a lot from my mother and worked hard for us.
But good topic to bring up.
Hugs, Ellen

[Shayna]

Knowing what I like to dress in, I would be fine, even if she wanted to do the fake facial hair, etc. If she wanted to live as a male full-time, I do't think I could live with that –*and I would also be shocked, knowing who she is.

All that said, I'm sure if I didn't dress I would have a problem understanding it, which is why I'm not upset my wife has difficult with it. Of course, if I didn't dress, I wouldn't be me.

[Emma1]

If a had a girlfriend and she wanted to dress up like a guy full-time, including a fake beard, I would probably be less attracted to her. However, if she just wanted to do it part0time, I wouldn't mind.

[Becky Blue]

Of course we here are inherently biased. Whether we are in the closet, DADT or happily sharing, our reactions are based on the knowledge of what we are. Naturally I would support anything my wife wanted to do, would I like it? That is the $1million question. Would i encourage her? Go out with her? Yes, but that because of who i am.

[Lacey CD]

I tend to look at things from my personal frame of reference. I've come to a place in my life where I don't have a need to pass and have no desire to present as a woman. I love being a feminine man. So from that point of view, if my wife wanted to express her masculine side through clothing, I wouldn't have any issue whatsoever. I think for me it would all depend on "how far" she wanted to go. I would probably draw the line at facial hair.

[Karen G]

Well, there will be mixed feelings of course but I will be very glad to be in that situation since we will be able to share that very important part our selves and in a selfish way of seeing things I would be able to wear dresses almost all the time!

[phili]

Thinking seriously about how we would feel when our partner tips over our gender preference cart is really useful. After all, the thing we are all trying to solve is how to bridge that gap with our SO, and to admit that we wouldn't want to, or feel comfortable, if our partner seems to be becoming some strange gender to us, then the next question is what would we want our SO to do about our discomfort!

In my case, I can't see myself saying she can't do this or that- because my pitch to my wife is that I need to do this or that to try to find myself and feel like one person instead of a split/pretend person. I can share her hope that short skirts may not turn out to be a permanent feature of my presentation, but I can't promise how long it will take to undo a lifetime of wishing I was wearing them more often. I can attest to the difficulty of sorting out the threads of my urge, so I would have to allow her the same space. In my view, being married is our commitment to helping each other with whatever we need help with.

[looking_good]

Love this question. In my case, dressing is about me, and how I feel, so answering this type of question puts the focus on empathy for those that are affected and away from myself.

I hope that I would have the wisdom to learn from my wife's example. She asks the right questions, set boundaries, and is both kind and clear. I hope she has gotten a better husband in return.

[Alice_2014_B]

I have actually thought about this exact thing, being that my wife already knows.

Honestly, it would all depend on the situation I guess, for different people.
My wife knows it's for entertainment purposes for me (for the most part).

Regardless, it's a very good thing to think upon, keeps from being selfish.

:)

[geek]

Being as I don't have a significant other, for me this is purely a hypothetical situation/question. I don't know how I would react to that kind of revelation, though I know how I would like to think I would react. Hopefully I would react with non-judgemental acceptance, if not understanding.

[darla_g]

i don't think i would have any problem with it and maybe in a way it could be kind of fun

[Sandin Meknickers]

Mine would be the same as hers. "If you look ridiculous I will tell you the same as I'd tell anyone else."

[Tracii G]

Thats the question I pose to many CDers on this site that complain their SO's are being unreasonable.
Usually I respond that way to CDers that their SO's let them wear panties for the first time and they think that is the green light to go 24/7 and go full on sex change surgery.
I would bet a lot of CDers here would be the "not in my backyard" type.

[ellbee]

Jean TG
Just felt like chiming in here. Most women who wear jeans, lumberjack shirts, down vests, etc, are NOT crossdressers. They don't try to pass as men. They don't get offended if people call them the "other gender". This is no longer the 1900's or the 1950's. Women dress in pants for various reasons, fashion, comfort, the main reason in the North is for warmth! So, you can think what you want, of course, and you can justify your actions by comments like that. Most women are not on a website carrying on about how wonderful it is to be a "man" just because they wear jeans (and a lumberjack shirt).

Yeah, and I dress in women's yoga pants & women's hoodies due to fashion & comfort. Honest! No freaky fetish funny biz, either. And since I'm *not* adorned in a wig, make-up, body padding, etc., and I'm *not* trying to pass as a woman when I wear this stuff in public, *I'm* not a crossdresser, either!

Am I following your "logic" correctly, here?


And just to take it one step further: On some levels, you're basically implying that some of your fellow GG's are not presenting as women, themselves, all the time -- You know, since they aren't living up to your beauty standards of hair length, of applied facial pigments, of particular body measurements, of particular garments, etc.

Wow. Congrats on that one.
You've come a long way, baby... :brolleyes:



P.S. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you bought it on the "other side of the aisle" & you wear it? Guess what...


Definition of cross–dressing

: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex

cross–dress intransitive verb
cross–dresser noun

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crossdress


But go ahead & deny all you want. Seems to be a common thing with GG's. I wonder why they're so ashamed to even acknowledge & admit it? Funny, that. Perhaps they could use a website/forum that helps them come to terms with it all?



P.P.S. I still lurve you, all the same! :hugs:

[Sandin Meknickers]

All about context isn't it. Who gave girls the right to opulent fabrics and frilly finishes? For centuries, dandy cocks pranced around the courts in clothes a presumed "man" of our time wouldn't wear without fear of ridicule. Imagine being Ron Weasley opening your dress robes...

Imagine a duck or a peacock. Males present more colourful than their drab female counterparts. And this whole calling male clothing drab is a lazy language mistake. Unless you're referring to the drab personality you put on with male clothes which is purely subjective.

[ellbee]

Anyway, getting back to the OP... :)


For me, I think it would come down to a level of moderation. Just how "into it" is she/he? How often? And why??


I'd personally probably have to draw the line at hormones and/or steroid use, as well as any surgery. Because at that point, things are probably getting a bit serious.

At the same time, if she wanted/needed to dress 24/7/365, that would be another thing that I couldn't deal with.

We could still be good friends & all that, but as a "life partner" of sorts? Nope, not my cup of tea. And yeah, I'd probably be a bit shocked, pained, etc., especially if this suddenly came out of the blue swiftly & strongly, without any sort of prior "warnings" or observations throughout our time together.


And for the record, I feel the same exact way when it comes to a GG SO in this situation -- i.e., I wouldn't expect her to automatically embrace her husband/BF in the above scenarios, either. I do keep things pretty equal across the board.



Anyway, if it was just more "casual" stuff? I don't mind one bit. She wants to dress up either partially or entirely in guy-clothes & go out in public like that sometimes, *without* presenting as a dude? Hey, go for it. I'm cool. I've had GF's & GG-friends wear my shirts, sweatshirts, jeans, hats, etc., before. Found it a bit endearing, and even pretty cute. They rocked the look pretty well.


And if she *does* want to present as a dude as best as reasonably possible? Hey, again, go for it. Psychologically & sociologically speaking, it is kind of mind-twister, especially the closer one gets to appearing to others as the opposite sex (or at the very least, have them seriously questioning). Been there, done that, LOL. So I can see where they're coming from. (In fact, I think *everybody* should have to go through this "training" -- because once they do, I can guarantee you that this world would be a much better, kinder, nicer & more understanding & respectful place between the sexes!)

Of course, I would be a bit concerned about her safety, if done in public, depending on how she/he looked & where she went. I suppose there are potential scenarios where somebody thinks she's something else, and well, she might not be able to physically defend herself so well.

In fact, I've even *encouraged* some GG's in my life to get all "duded-up" just for Halloween... You know, either as a guy, or as a guy dressing up for Halloween. The whole 9 yards. Sadly, none have ever accepted the challenge, that I'm aware of, anyway. But perhaps I planted the seed? I do have to wonder if any ever subsequently locked themselves in the bathroom at home, tied back their hair & put it under a baseball hat, and went to town applying make-up to create dude eyebrows & 5-o'clock shadow. You know, just to see... :devil:



Anyway, I think there are some gray areas, of course. Take physical appearances that have more of an intermediate-term effect, for one, which crosses over from one gender presentation to the other... Getting & maintaining a buzz-cut (for vanity purposes only) after wearing shoulder-length hair for years? Letting her leg hair & underarm hair fully grow out for months? Hitting the gym 2 hours every day to work on her upper-body strength & bulk? It may seem hypocritical, but sometimes for some things, a guy doing something similar to become "more girly" doesn't look as bad & is relatively more socially acceptable than a chick becoming "more manly."

Example: A guy with hairless legs, wearing shorts -- versus a girl with long thick dark leg hair, wearing shorts. Which do you think would garner more attention & disapproval in certain countries, like in the US?

In junior high/high school, I seem to remember not one, but two girls who had a natural, long & *dark* peach-fuzz moustache for years. I felt so bad for them, especially since I knew what others would say behind their back. Plus, it just did not look good. Eww. And yet, nobody really cared if a guy was clean-shaven -- if he could even grow much facial hair, at all, that is. Not saying whether that's right or not... Just noting real observations of the real world.



Anyway, the bottom line for me is, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't expect anyone to automatically go along with anything & everything 100%. If some do, that's great; more power to them. At the same time, I expect that same level of freedom from others... I will tolerate/accept/embrace/whatever things that would apply to me & my situation, and that they would tolerate/accept/embrace/whatever in theirs, if the shoe was on the other foot.

And in that sense, it is more or less about fairness & equality, mixed in with some open-mindedness. :)