Pronouns

[Victoria Demeanor]

Hello all,
Disclaimer: I present this post for a light and fun discussion. I just wanted to throw this topic back out and see what everyone thinks. I don’t think this post will be a world changer…….I mean not yet….at least not till I finish building my hyper sonic death ray in my super secret volcanic hideout, all to hold the world my hostage and to bend to my will. ...HA, HA, Ha, ha ha (evil laugh)…

Side note or prelude: There is a young person that often comes into my building at the college where I work. This person is always nicely attired, which is refreshing considering how most of the kids dress. Typically this person has on skinny jeans, with no hole, a nice feminine top with cardigan or wrap, earrings with matching necklace, their hair up in a nice bun and light, but obvious makeup. There mannerisms are definitely feminine, but the kicker is they have a full beard. Nicely trimmed, but yes a full bread. I am 98% sure this person is biologically male, CD, TG, TS, don’t know nor do I consider it really any of my business. At the moment I have no reason for interaction, with the exception of a few passing hello’s, but as my job is safety and security this may change at some point. I have been wondering lately how I might politely refer to them.
(End of side note.)

So this has me thinking…re-thinking…OK....re-beating an old horse. Pronouns?
Once again, just a friendly discussion.
Question:
Your thoughts on what you would like to see our culture do.
1: Keep our current pronouns, they are fine; we should just learn to address a person by the pronoun they relate to. (Hey it’s worked for the last billion years, just stick with the status quo)
2: we should create a third pronoun to add to him and her, he and she, Sir and Mam, to be used when a person, for lack of better definition fits in-between, or as a respectable address until their preference in learned. (Yes lets add to the confusion and throw in a dozen more on top)
3: We should create one gender neutral pronoun to refer to everyone. (We are all one, we are the collective)

Alright so if you pick 2 or 3 what would you suggest for the alterative pronoun and would you include titles as in Mr. and Mrs.?

So that’s it, just interested in your thoughts and if you have a 4th or 5th option you can throw it in to. So discuss while I run back and check on my minions, I think on just got crushed by a bar of plutonium.

[Aunt Kelly]

1.
As you say, it's worked for this long. Doing something new seems extremely contrived. Everyone has one pronoun gender that they'd prefer. Yes, for some of us that changes according to our mood, but generally speaking, it's always one or the other. Granted, the young person you describe presents a bit of a dilemma, presenting as he, or she, does. My guess would be that he simply has a feminine sense of style, but if I had any doubt, I'd find a polite way to ask. It might even by a useful conversation starter.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Victoria :hugs:, For century's they have been trying to re-invent the wheel , We don't need a square wheel...:daydreaming:...

[mykell]

better get over to your secret volcanic lab ASAP...

1. our younger folks now use they, them, they're for the middle folks.

2. their is already a multitude of pronouns out there, i use mx. when possible, when filling out forms and such i am generally happy to see other as a choice.

3. we have a gender neutral word that refers to everyone, its humans....some dont seem to get that and are annoyed by our just being but hopefully better days are coming....

do take a roll call on the minions to make sure all are accounted for, wouldnt want any nefarious activities to occur....

[Lana Mae]

This is from a handout my daughter received on Gender day at the community college where she works. These are alternative pronouns:
Ze-ze laughs, I called hir, hir eyes, that is hir, ze likes hirself
They-they laugh, i called them, their eyes, that is theirs, they like themself
Zie-zie laughs, I called zir, zir eyes, that is zirs, zie likes zirself
Xe-xe laughs, I called xem, xyr eyes, that is xyrs, xe likes xemself
To me this is just too confusing, need to settle on one for everyone and leave it at that! Hugs Lana Mae

[Pat]

Personally, I'm a fan of the singular "they" simply because people already know the word and almost know how to use it in the singular (it tends to break down a little in face-to-face conversation where they get uncomfortable using they when I'm standing right there. It seems to imply the person is not present.) Like Mickell, I use Mx as an honorific if it's available.

I'm not a big fan of Ze, Xe, etc simply because it seems to take more effort than they.

Victoria, in your particular case, the right answer is when you need to interact with this person, just quickly ask their preference up front and use that from then on. It's perfectly OK to do that. I know I appreciate it when people do that for me.

It's much, much harder for folks who thought the question had been settled years ago than for strangers who meet you for the first time. Last night I was out to dinner with friends who have known me for decades and they were constantly asking my forgiveness for pronoun errors. Fortunately, any pronoun used respectfully works for me. ;)

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention your case #3. On reading that, the thing that flashed through my head was "comrade." Everything old is new again...

[ronda]

I think the best way to find out how a person wants to be addressed is to just ask them their name I think that will give you a hint as to how they want to be addressed

[NicoleScott]

Human and comrade are not pronouns. The OP question is what pronoun to use.
Number 3 is the worst idea. Let's find a way to accommodate the gender-non-conforming without neutering everyone else. Most people identify and present as clearly male/masculine or as clearly female/feminine. Good luck in convincing this majority that they can no longer be called him or her, he or she.
I looked up the definition of "they". In the most common usage, they refers to two or more people or things. There is a second definition that uses they to refer to a person of unspecified sex. There you go. There is already a word. Don't need another.
I like ronda's idea: ask. Certainly the OP subject knows that THEY are sending mixed signals by sporting a typically male beard while wearing clothing, hair style, and make up typically worn by women. It's how we ask. Not "are you a man or woman?", but something like "noticing that you are presenting with both typically male and female styles, how (by what pronoun) do you preferred to be addressed?". I would think such a person would appreciate the question rather than having others guess wrong.

[Tracii G]

I have seen pronouns like LanaMae spoke of used and it sounds ridiculous.
Most trans people I know think its the dumbest thing ever.
Is it so hard to just ask what that person what they prefer? Heck I do if I am unsure and I have never had a bad response so far.
I have had people ask me ma'am or sir? and I respond with ma'am is fine 90% of the time.
I watched a YT video on this subject last year and just laughed all the way thru it because none of it made any sense.
Just more silliness coming from universities IMO.

[Geena Gee]

For some reason, I keep thinking back to a character that used to be on SNL. Do you remember "It's Pat"? Totally androgynous character, and everybody that interacted with her (using 'her' here, as Pat was played by a female,) was totally flummoxed at what pronoun to use. Of course, Pat offered absolutely zero in feedback. Talk about a no-win situation. LOL

[Lily Catherine]

It's a personal question I suppose. But when referring to another, I think the singular "they" will suffice. (In Chinese the pronoun he/she/him/her is pronounced the same, but written differently - there is no gender neutral pronoun.)

[Diane Taylor]

Let's keep things the way they are......

[Stacy Darling]

Keeping this light I'll pick No.1 as I would prefer to have Miss as my title, Miss Stacy just rolls off my tongue. But now I'll have to go down the 4/5 track as I won't gender reference people anymore and I wouldn't want anyone to gender reference me. Not sure if that was light enough, meant to be!

[IamWren]

I think the best way to find out how a person wants to be addressed is to just ask them their name I think that will give you a hint as to how they want to be addressed

I recently watched the NatGeo documentary titled The Gender Revolution and in one part Katie Couric was with a group of college students. As she introduced this segment she narrated how her college aged daughter said it happens very often that students when working in a group or in some sort of meeting will start of by introducing themselves and say what gender they identify with and which pronouns they prefer.

I think Ronda is right... you could introduce yourself, say what your role is at the university and would like to know which pronouns they prefer.

On side note.... although quite rare there is the case of Balpreet Kaur, (https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+woman+beard&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=sikh+woman+beard+pcos) a young Sihk woman who has polycystic ovary syndrome and it causes her to have facial hair. Perhaps it's possible this person has that condition. Again, unlikely but possible.

[windshear]

#1, minus this part:

we should just learn to address a person by the pronoun they relate to.

Who is "we" here? If you're talking society at large, I'm wondering if anyone here gets that this simply isn't going to happen. There are a clear set of social rules in place currently in regards to pronouns. Simple to understand- There's no way to accomplish something as clear without going to lengths like putting a "pronoun" field on your birth certificate or driver's license, and that isn't going to happen either.

I feel compelled to warn people- this stuff is seriously, seriously toxic.
This "push for pronouns" is thought policing. NOBODY gets to dictate how someone else perceives them. That is the observer's choice and those choices are typically based on millennium-old social norms whether anybody likes it or not. As is the perception of this issue itself- Outside of the very small bubbles and echo chambers of society in which this topic actually gets entertained, it looks like a circus.

Nobody is helping anyone by pushing for this stuff. What will result is a strong counter reaction- one of resentment and ridicule. There's nothing to gain and everything to lose. The world in ten years will be just as different from today as today is from ten years ago- and today's superior virtue is tomorrow's barbarism. The pendulum swings both ways.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I've spent years secretly hoping someone would address me as Your Ladyship.

As for your mysterious student, how about 'Hey beardy.'

[Wen4cd]

I personally don't care what pronoun is used to address me.

I'm with Ru Paul on this:
"You can call me he. You can call me she. You can call me Regis & Cathy Lee; I don't care! Just as long as you call me"

But I know many CD's take feminine pronouns as a 'passing grade' of how they're perceived by others, or have in the past.

Nowadays, since it's a topical social issue, it's meaningless. I've had soo many 'allies' carefully question me about "muh pronouns" just to virtue-signal that I know that's all it is about anymore.

[Victoria Demeanor]

Back from the evil lair. Several minions have been lost, but thank goodness those things multiply like rabbits.
Well it sounds as if the general consensus at the moment is choice #1 the status quo and as for myself I would tend to agree. Maybe because I am old and set in my ways, or perhaps for more selfish reasons, in that I would love to hear the acknowledgment of being called she or Mam when presenting in female form. I kind of think choice #2 would get too confusing and how dull and 1984ish is choice #3

AS for my side note: I thought there were many good thoughts on this. I honestly was just using this as an example or to explain what brought me to writing this post. This person is not the first or only gender questionable person we have or had on our campus. I do engage students with light pleasantries during the course of a day, but typically if they are seeing me it’s not for ideal reasons. I would treat them like I treat any and all students. I would initially address them by the name on there student ID, but then ask them how they like to be addressed.

BLUE ORCHID, the Myth Busters proved a square wheel works.

Lana Mae, Sounds very confusing

Sayyidah, (On side note.... although quite rare there is the case of Balpreet Kaur, a young Sihk woman who has polycystic ovary syndrome and it causes her to have facial hair. Perhaps it's possible this person has that condition. Again, unlikely but possible.)
I did think of this, and bearded women are not really that uncommon. It was kinda why I said 98% sure. There are some medical condition, but the thickness of the beard would make this a very sever case. also the voice is just not right.

Windshear: I get your point and I do understand. I agree with you as to our present culture. The purpose for this post though was not a call for action, but rather a simple query as to what people would like to see our culture do, as a caveat I should have said in a Utopian culture. As far as the “WE” it was preceded by “should” and not “shall”. The difference is that, the “Shall” word won’t be used until after I finish my sonic death ray……

Your ladyship Nikki, so pleasant to see you again. Yes I believe "Hey beardy" would do wonders for my career.

[Pat]

My gender therapist is a non-binary person who introduces herself as a bearded woman. She's at peace with it. I, on the other hand, am only a bearded woman until I can reach the razor in the morning -- and then I repeat the mantra "My current need to shave does not invalidate me" until the debearding ceremony is over. ;)