Rock Stars vs Crossdressers

[deebra]

A comparison yet different results?????? Boy George, David Bowie, Rod Stewart, Michael Jackson all dressed female and wore makeup. Mick Jagger wore girls skinny jeans. The Beatles came over here from England with their long hair and then all American males started wearing long hair and going to beauty salons to get it cut, colored, set, permed just like the other women in the shop that use to have it all to themselves. Then men started wearing one earing and then they went to two just like women. If crossdressing worked so well for rock stars and some of it became the cool thing for the males to copy why isn't males wearing feminine items today more accepted....or is it and it's the non self confidence crossdresser is the problem for the crossdresser. Boobs and a bra to put them in doesn't work in this scenario but doesn't it make sence that males wearing female clothing would have been more accepted??? The public loved seeing their singers dress this way, shouldn't that have loosen up todays attitude of males wearing different amounts of female clothing. And if this was accepted it would allow more acceptance for a fully dressed CD. Women aren't judged negatively when wearing men's, maybe they have more bal*'s than men???? Anyway just a comparison to think about. Then we hear the public doesn't care but there are times when their stare isn't looking at how beautiful your eyes are.

[CD Tammy]

Hey don't forget Prince (or The Artist Formerly Known as Prince) because he sure sported some feminine attire.

[Sara Jessica]

Bowie, Boy George, Stewart and Jackson who you cited as examples didn't go to Macy's to buy their favorite Anne Klein dress and Nine West heels in order to enhance their stage personas. All at times went through phases where their clothing of choice became androgynous. I don't recall ever seeing any of them in a woman's dress. Bowie's famous "man-dress" graced the cover of The Man Who Sold The World while Boy George usually looked as if he was wearing smocks at best. If any of them ever sported women's wear to look like a woman, I'm not aware of it. And from the glam period in the early seventies to the new romantic looks of the early eighties, there were plenty of examples of said androgyny bleeding into the regular world. Little, if any of this however featured men presenting in such a way that would be confused with what we would recognize as full-on crossdressing today.

That contention makes as much sense as "women wear men's clothing all the time and get away with it". Wait, you said that one too. Please know that women do not get away with wearing men's clothes. They wear some garments that are also associated with menswear (i.e. - pants) which are tailored for a woman's body and are often made of fabrics and colors that are more typical of what a woman would choose.

Since neither contention holds any water, why not blaze your own trail and wear what you wish? Rock stars don't get away with anything. Women certainly don't. But you can...!!!

[Taylor186]

The public loved seeing their singers dress this way


Their relatively small and young (at the time) fan bases may have loved the rules-breaking CDish look of Bowie and George but major parts of the public, including my parents, hated it.

[Barbara Jo]

Speaking as someone who was in the music business in the past.... playing Bass in rock bands...
It was mostly all "show business" as far as some being androgynous on stage .... wearing makeup/ female tops etc in the "glitter rock" era.
One oi the most frequent types of comments that I heard from band members of that era who had an androgynous look on stage was... "This is rock and roll...."

So, I would not read too much into it this other than that. :)

[Tracii G]

Having been part of the classic metal/hair metal rock scene in the late 70' and into the 80's I wore all the spandex and womens tops, and boots. Wore make up, teased hair like a lot of other players.
It was just rock and roll and not crossdressing deebra.
Girl fans would bring clothes to shows and give them to us to add to our wardrobe sometimes it was all about fun.
None of the guys at shows cared or called us gay or fag boy and for the most part dressed like normal guys but there were some hang around guys that dressed sort of like us just not as obvious.
The whole argument women can wear guy clothes and guys can't wear womens clothes is so ridiculous because they are not guy clothes those are made for women.
How many times does one have to beat a dead horse?

[Ressie]

Not many guys got Beatle haircuts or grew their hair out in my area. The exception was guys that wanted to be Rock musicians (me for one). It was about 10 years after the Beatles came to America that longer hair on men became a common fashion.

The New York Dolls went full drag in the late '70s. The Rolling Stones had an album cover with the band in drag (some girls). And there had been songs that implied crossdressing that made the top 40, i.e. Lola, Walk on the Wild Side, Get Back.

Glitter Rock was an androgynous period for Rock bands - T. Rex, Mott the Hoople, Bowie. The late '80s big hair bands were quite sexy (Cinderella, Poison, Angel)! Then in 1990 came Nirvana and Grunge - flannel shirts and blue jeans. :(

[Tracii G]

Ressie Angel was a great band and super talented guys all of them.
They did shake up the rock scene in the late 70's with their andro/female look.
Grunge did kill the fun aspect and turned rock into one giant Emo fest.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

A strange effect takes place when things are deemed 'showbiz'. Crossdressing with wig and full make up was standard fare in British comedy, on stage then on TV, since the late 19th century, yet with very few exceptions only debauched young upper class men dared go out in eye-liner or a feather boa. Homosexuality was still a crime, and yet my ultra conservative grandparents watched various stage and TV shows that featured deviance in various forms. Go figure.

[docrobbysherry]

Rockstars dress that way to show off. Look different. Stand out from the crowd. :daydreaming:

Is that the way u dress when u go out, Deebra? Because "dressing to blend" is just the opposite. Many folks mite think you're hiding and sneaking around. So they won't notice you're a man in a dress.:eek:

EXACTLY WHY I HATE dressing to blend!:doh:

[TinaMc]

Not many guys got Beatle haircuts or grew their hair out in my area. The exception was guys that wanted to be Rock musicians (me for one). It was about 10 years after the Beatles came to America that longer hair on men became a common fashion.

The New York Dolls went full drag in the late '70s. The Rolling Stones had an album cover with the band in drag (some girls). And there had been songs that implied crossdressing that made the top 40, i.e. Lola, Walk on the Wild Side, Get Back.

Glitter Rock was an androgynous period for Rock bands - T. Rex, Mott the Hoople, Bowie. The late '80s big hair bands were quite sexy (Cinderella, Poison, Angel)! Then in 1990 came Nirvana and Grunge - flannel shirts and blue jeans. :(

Kurt Cobain used to wear a dress.

[Allisa]

Lets not forget Rick Flare and Gorgeous George of "wraslin" fame.

[deebra]

docrobbysherry,

This morning went shopping at WalMart; wore tight size 12 embellished girl jeans, panties and bra of course, heeled ankle boots and women's tee under jacket. I blended just like a can of Cambell's soup setting on the shelf or just like any other woman. I interacted with SA's and customer. No one gave me a second look. I might add I can make the heels click on the floor with that womanly sound or walk as quietly as a church mouse. Great morning and I like it this way.

[Jodi]

My experience is that I could wear a burlap sack to Walmart and no one would notice.

jodi

[Diane Taylor]

Let's not forget Milton Berle back in the 50's. He wasn't a rock star but did some of his show in drag.

[Tina_gm]

I do sometimes wonder if at least some of the entertainment performers, rock bands or any that routinely did drag were getting away with doing so under cover yet in plane sight.... and I would also like to add kiss with the 7 inch heels btw....

I don't think that most were making any real obvious statements. In some cases yes, Bowie definitely pushed some boundaries. Boy george.... obviously another and basically was using drag as part of an attention getter. Big hair metal glam of the 80's.... toward the end some were getting to a point where it was something..... not sure what, but something. Could have been for a lot that those who held the leash pretty much directed them that way, it was popular. Motley cruel, poison, none of them today seemy in any way feminine or rock any androgynous look. If anything they've done a 180. Whether it's because it's who they really are (today) or they are separating themselves from that, who knows.

I don't think it's a full comparison, I personally wouldn't call most of it cding. I will say though that a lot of people were finding their look to be cool, both men and women. Something the average guy on the street would never get admired by.

[susan54]

Boy George dressed completely as a woman for a Cosmo cover.

[Rhonda Jean]

I was 6 years old when my family gatherer around the black and white TV for the Ed Sullivan Show to see the Beatles. I'd heard about these boys with (shamefully) long hair. These boys who looked like girls. I had below-shoulder-length hair at the time. I was anxious to see boys like me! Then, ummm, not so much. That's long hair? That's what's so shameful and causing such an uproar? Still, it opened up the discussion. It didn't exactly take off like wildfire where I'm from. I was in Jr. High before there was another boy with hair below his shoulders. That's about the time, too, that a lot of boys started carefully styling their hair. My mom rolled my hair and my brother's, even though his was much shorter than mine. My cousin obsessed about getting the "perfect flip" in his hair with a blow dryer and a round brush. The rock stars... there was some serious hair styling going on there, and clothes (sometimes even for those not banking on androgyny) became more feminine.

I got my first platform heels in 9th grade (I think). Mine were from the girl's department because we couldn't find any small enough in the men's department. They were a little higher and a little narrower than the men's, but not remarkably different. Not everybody wore them, but nobody cared or commented if you did. I wore tight, high waisted bell bottoms with no back pockets that zipped up the side or the back. Mine were girl's. I'm pretty sure the same thing was available in the boy's department, they just wouldn't fit someone as skinny as I was. The list goes on. These were the things you saw on the rock stars that migrated into everyday fashion. Still amazing to think about, even though looking back at those fashions the look pretty ridiculous. Even my dad slept in a hairnet back then, and we went through a lot of AquaNet in our house!

When I was a senior in high school my older girlfriend went away to college and promptly broke up with me. I later saw her with her new boyfriend who had hair down below his waist and hoop earrings (and was hot!). Seems others were catching up and passing me!

I wouldn't have turned out any differently if the rock stars hadn't "paved the way", so to speak. I would've still been a crossdresser if popular fashion hadn't taken a hard turn toward androgyny. But, I might not have been so out with it. I was never bullied, and only rarely even poked fun at. I wasn't doing anything that wasn't being done on some album cover. It might have meant something different to me, but outwardly (to everyone else) it appeared the same.

A friend of mine (not trans in any way) has a professional photo of himself from the mid-80's with feathered hair (a la Farrah Faucett) and full makeup. The fact that he could/would do that as a non-trans person is entirely because of the influence of the rock stars.

These kind of fashion statements never influence everybody, but they do broaden everybody's choice. They may look stupid now, but the 70's and 80's were fabulous times to experiment with androgyny and all-out femininity, under the guise of popular fashion.

[Shayna]

As far back as when I was a teenager I wanted to be a rock star and wanted to cross dress. I can honestly say the two have nothing to do with each other.

Rock stars dress to stand out, but they usually don't effect mainstream fashion in that overt a way. When the Talking Heads were big, you didn't see people wearing ridiculously oversized suits. Maybe some more underground music effects there audience (e.g. punk, grunge, early hip hop), but those seem to be more about a community forming than changing the masses.

[Eva Bella]

Women aren't judged negatively when wearing men's, maybe they have more bal*'s than men

They do. And believe me, women are judged positively and negatively for every single aspect of their appearance, all of the time.

As men, we get used to the comfort of conformity. We can wake up, put on a t-shirt and cargo shorts, spend 1min on our hair, go outside, and no one cares. A woman who did that for more than a few days would be judged to death. People would question her mental health after a while. Women will be celebrated for their appearance well beyond any man, but they're also held accountable for it. Men have way less expectations.

Honestly.. if you want to wear feminine items, there is nothing stopping you. I know plenty of people who do it. People might stare, they might comment, but that comes with the territory of standing out. If a girl wears a hot bodycon dress to the mall, she'll get stared at and commented on as well, and certainly not all of it will be friendly, positive, or appreciated.

[Stacy Darling]

May it be in the way in which it's all pulled together. The Art of using dress, music and art (again) so that's the rock star thing, and that's what keeps me going!
On the acceptance thingy, someone wise posted a comment somewhere here (sorry) about different groups being accepted slowly, but not ours, couldn't agree more!
Lastly on the ball thing, A definite yes and that's part of the reason that I'm more of a woman than my former wife!

[sometimes_miss]

but doesn't it make sence that males wearing female clothing would have been more accepted???
OK, once again, these are performers who wear 'alternative' things to generate attention to what they're doing. The reason women are attracted to them has nothing to do with what they're wearing; they're displaying alpha male behavior by being on the stage and often have at least some $$$$$. Men are attracted to women for different reasons from why women are attracted to men.
The band KISS dressed outrageously with bizarre make up too, all to draw attention to themselves (for a performer, any publicity is good publicity, remember?). And women don't usually wear men's clothes in the desire to be seen as men; they don't change how they walk or talk or move. We dress to be seen as women, sound like women, and even move as women.
Deebra, you've been here since 2010, there have been numerous threads about this, usually from a newcomer, about once a month. This question is sort of like what adults hear from a child who keeps asking why they can't stay up later at night. You can keep asking. The answer is going to remain the same.

[Anne K]

When I got both ears pierced, a couple people commented on it. My reply was that I'm a musician -which I am. No problem! I'm working on pushing the envelope. For instance, I have started wearing a ankle bracelet 24/7. No big deal. I am wearing some quality "woman's" rings. No big deal. My shorts, jeans, and tee shirts are all woman's. No big deal. The boobs and wigs might be a big deal that I will save for a later date......

[Confucius]

Japan's J-rockers have a history of extreme crossdressing, (consider Mana Sama, Hizaki, or Yohio). While crossdressing was okay for the j-rockers only a few brave men would dare dress as a brolita. It was not socially acceptable, just a rocker thing.

Anyone who challenges social convention will feel exposed and vulnerable. Society fears nonconformists and challenges to its traditions. In order for social norms to change it has to start with a youth movement. Society counts on its youth to challenge social convention and expand our freedoms and tolerances.

[docrobbysherry]

A picture is worth a 1000 words, Deebra. So, if u post even an avatar pic we'll owe u over 900!?:heehee:


docrobbysherry,
This morning went shopping at WalMart; wore tight size 12 embellished girl jeans, panties and bra of course, heeled ankle boots and women's tee under jacket. I blended just like a can of Cambell's soup setting on the shelf or just like any other woman. I interacted with SA's and customer. No one gave me a second look. I might add I can make the heels click on the floor with that womanly sound or walk as quietly as a church mouse. Great morning and I like it this way.

[Rhonda Jean]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious... In the '70's it looked like we were quickly headed toward men and women dressing alike, wearing their hair alike, etc.. Somewhere along the way that stopped as quickly as it started (with the obvious exceptions). Although getting by with long hair throughout school wasn't much of a problem for me, it was for some. Still today, every year you hear of some boy having to cut his hair to abide by some school dress code. I will never understand that!

[sometimes_miss]

Japan's J-rockers have a history of extreme crossdressing.
There was even a Japanese crossdressing show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uaT23ukbhE&list=PLcqIR5XYlHg0dPatISh4qo8c-vfHbVnfu, where they took potentially feminine looking males in their teens or early 20's and made them up and dressed them as women. Then asked girls what they thought. Some even remarked that the guy looked verrrrry pretty. But when asked if she would date him, the response was always yes or maybe, but not dressed like that. I watched as many of those shows as I could. Only ONE woman was willing to date the guy as he was made up and dressed as a female. ONE. That's for AVERAGE men. Women will date all kinds of odd looking men when we have enough money. I refer you to the second half of the hot/crazy matrix, here: https://youtu.be/hKWmFWRVLlU?t=5m50s
Yes, they will usually prefer a better looking male if all other things are equal. But a huge percentage will overlook appearances (and even put up with physical abuse and infidelity) as long as he has sufficient assets/status/power/income.

[Penton]

It's interesting in these types of threads that no one mentioned the fact that there are a number of dress makers that size and tailor their fashions to fit Men. If your dress was made specifically for a man to wear, are you crossdressing or not?

[Gabriella111]

Women aren't judged negatively when wearing men's
Women are judged negatively for everything. What men's clothing are we getting away with wearing without judgment?

[Taylor186]

@Penton: Point me to a significant retailer who is offering dresses for men who are not already crossdressers.

[Tracii G]

It's interesting in these types of threads that no one mentioned the fact that there are a number of dress makers that size and tailor their fashions to fit Men. If your dress was made specifically for a man to wear, are you crossdressing or not?

Why do people continue saying silly stuff like this?

- - - Updated - - -


Women are judged negatively for everything. What men's clothing are we getting away with wearing without judgment?

I wish I knew as well Gabriella, it seems deebra is all hung up on that notion.

[Amelie]

Yes Confucius, I love Mana, the clothes, the face, love it.

Boy George had his style before he became a rock star being one of the "Blitz Kids" As did Steve Strange of Visage.

Years back when I was just starting to realize I was a female, I was also into these bands and clubs back in the day. There was a mix of people dressing in styles that could be considered cross dressing or at least androgynous in style. Some of the more wacky parts of the NYC scene came from Michael Alig and the club kids. I thought the way we lived in the clubs back then would shape the future for others to be themselves and have fun. But sometimes there is a too serious tone to things today,, it seems like too many rules on how one should live. Seems there are too many arguments/debates on who is a cd, who is a transsexual, who can be transgender and who isn't considered one of these groups, and I guess there will be more sub grouping in the future to further the arguing.. I think the rock stars and the people in clubs in my day just did what they wanted and skipped reading the rule book. They just lived their lives to having fun and didn't worry what people thought. I know this would be tough for people with family and jobs, but that is why these others are rock stars and not accountants.

[Sara Jessica]

Great points Amelie. I had forgotten about how the Blitz Kids evolved into what was wider known as New Romantic. Spandau Ballet was the most successful band to come out of the Blitz scene who along with Visage (RIP Steve Strange) were probably the two acts which fit under both banners (New Romantic later included more bands, some very well known including Duran Duran). Boy George was Blitz but Culture Club were rarely accused of being New Romantic.

And I agree with your points as to how youth tends to do what they will without regard to labels and such. But at the same time, most of those same kids grow up to be accountants among other things and they leave behind those club styles. And I still maintain that as gender-bending or androgynous as the club scene can be (whether Blitz, Club Kids, etc), very little of that (if any) approximated the CD/TG looks we see in these pages. Just as the musicians who blurred gender lines generally don't adopt "our" looks either.

[Wen4cd]

2 summers ago I was out seeing my favorite band, who were playing in Philly. And the lead singer Mike came out in a bright blue cocktail dress. I was so proud of him, as it was always known he was into the fetish scene, but he's never really come out as a CD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ptp2w6DcEM

It wasn't at all mere showmanship. Later that year pictures began to surface of him in various fetishy crossdress in his scene, even as a bride. Then last year he came out with a great song on the new record called "I'm a Transvest-lite." where he comes out about his lifetime of casual 'lazy' crossdressing in catchy rhyme and a punk beat.

This is a definite awesome song about crossdressing if you've never heard it yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgEsf8JYqVA

"I'm A Transvest-Lite"

I first heard Frank say
He wanted to dress like Faye Wray
I wanted that too but what could I do
In junior high school in LA?
My heart skipped in the scene
He said you gotta be it, not just dream
It was a taboo I knew I wouldn't pursue
I didn't have the self-esteem

I gotta confess that I like to cross dress
And I've been doing it since I was 13
It's hard to tell bros that you wear women's clothes
Even in the “open-minded” punk scene
You'd probably get hurt in heels and a skirt
When you're in the middle of a circle pit
So I'd only wear panties under boxers to keep it all a secret
Now I'm telling everyone 'cause it's fun and I don't give a shit

Forward 30 years
I still had the same fears
Then I saw Hedwig play at Bilgewater's gig
And I felt the same envy and tears
I decided right there
I can't be bothered to care
What other people think, I'm gonna dye my pubes pink
And throw out all my Hanes underwear

I'm not transgender, I'm a lazy crossdresser
Who thinks makeup is too much of an ordeal
I paint my toes and wear shiny tight clothes
Not for the look, but how it makes me feel
I don't need things just right, I'm a tranvest-lite
I only shave to do the Time Warp midnight Saturday
I'm done with self-pity, I don't have to feel shitty
'Cause I wanna look pretty, so I give it the old city College try
Don't get me wrong, I still wanna be a guy
Who sometimes likes to dress like a girl
(He sometimes likes to wear diamonds and pearls)
Don't think I don't know I'm not fooling anyone
(He's a cross between Adele and Charlie Chaplin)
You gotta know it's not just girls who just wanna have fun!

[Amelie]

That song was cool Wen, sort of sounded like Dead Milkmen. I liked it.

I sometimes think people from Japan have some cool bands and styles. Sometimes I think they are a bit ahead of us on culture that we sort of gave them in the first place.

I just love Mana, style clothes, face and the music. I am sort of like Mana when I am out I rarely speak to people.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpCUlXBiW2I

[Wen4cd]

Hehe, I love everything about Mana and MM - except the music, which isn't to my taste. But I do love the visuals and the film-making.

Japan is definitely a powerhouse of aesthetic prowess and especially of 'girly' imagery, you can't walk down the street or in any subway without images of young girls constantly blasted at you in a sensory overload. (Spent a few days there last year, it was nice.)

The preoccupation with aesthetics is maybe a bit too much - to the detriment of other things. I once watched a beautiful Japanese archer in traditional dress do a wonderful dance with a bow and flowing robes, etc, stunningly aesthetic ...and then she proceed to miss the target three times in a row at 40 feet. But she looked good doing it.

If you were to stand right at the centre of Japanese fashion and culture, which is a popular walking alley in Harajuku, in the middle of Tokyo called 'Takeshita Dori', and look in some of the trendiest shops to your left and right, amongst all the pretty dresses you will also see things that can't be unseen: lots of swastikas, (and not the buddhist ones, you commonly see around the temples there, but the nazi one, and iron crosses, and other nazi stuff) and signs under them in English that say "foreigners get the hell out." "Japanese only" "Go away filthy tourists," etc. Japan has a seedy underbelly beneath all the glitz.

Still, the good far outweighs the bad, and most regular people are very kind. I would go back there any time.

edit: You're right! Mike does sound similar to the guys in Dead Milkmen, with that precocious, slightly whining Jewish punkrocker guy voice. Now I gotta go dig out Beelzebubba again. :)

[Barbara Jo]

BTW..
The only self proclaimed CD- DQ rocker that I am aware of is "Boy George"

In fact, when asked for a comment about his Grammy win, he playfully said in effect that it was about time that "a drag queen" got that award. :)

[Kathyxd]

Keith Caputo (Life Of Agony) transitioned in 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina_Caputo

[Allison Chaynes]

Kurt Cobain used to wear a dress.

On the In Utero CD, Dave Grohl is in drag, which he does in MULTIPLE Foo Fighter videos.

[Ressie]

I liked Robert Plant's androgynous look in the early '70s. The tops he wore and the blonde curly hair were very fem. His gestures and stage moves were a bit fem too.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a3/5b/f5/a35bf5fadcbd0d9dc77d94604e55a0b5.jpg

[NicoleScott]

I put little stock into the idea that what rock stars and other celebrities wear in public is a reflection of their gender identity. More likely is that they dress newly different in order to get attention. It works.
I'd rather be appreciated and remembered for cranking out great music than for a fashion gimmick. (Neither will happen, though)