DADT, (don't ask, don't tell). What does that REALLY MEAN!?

[docrobbysherry]

To many here it seems to mean, " sneak, hide, and lie". So, why not just call it, SHL", instead?:straightface:

To me and my disapproving university attending, adult daughter who lives with me, it means this:

I felt I had to tell her or I would get caught. Sneaking around became so stressful it was ruining the enjoyment of dressing after she moved in full time at age 18.:doh:
Now, I tell her in advance when I will dress and where in the house and/or grounds I will be dressed and filming. We discuss where she will be so she won't see me.:daydreaming:

She doesn't like it. But, as our therapist explained, "CD's can't give this up when they r as involved as your dad is. So, if it bothers u that much u can move out or come to a compromise that works for u both." And, it has. She doesn't ever have to see me dressed and my dressing is exciting, relaxing, and stress free again!:)

What does DADT mean to u? Why don't u call it SHL if u won't/can't discuss it with your SO to work out a compromise?:sad:

[Johninabra]

In our home it means don't ask for permission to wear a bra and cover it up and don't tell her I have one on. She mostly chooses to ignore the fact l like to wear bras, but recently agreed to me ordering forms and has gone bra shopping with me a couple of times. By the way when I wear forms I go from a 46b to a dd and it seems that they can't be ignored so not to push the envelope to hard I only wear them when she is away.

[ClosetED]

Sherry, it is very different with an adult child than a spouse. If the adult child doesn't like it, they can move out. FOr a spouse to do that, it is heading for divorce. And the US Army came up with DADT, but SHL is accurate.
To me DADT was all that was option to divorce - she knew for decades I liked to wear hose/heels and wanted dresses. But more than occasional festishistic use was unbearable to her image of what a husband should be. And she said it was fear of damage to the family that let her even put up with that. So when, as the kids began to leave the nest, I asked for more, she refused and offered DADT - do what you want but leave me out of it. I don't want to see it, hear about it, discuss it, see bills for things, read about it. So yes, I had to turn into a liar, cheat, sneak in order to be honorable to her request.
with the new end of DADT, she hung dresses in my closet and bought me hundreds of dollars of clothes and has seen pictures of me. I am amazed at the change and am so glad to not have to lie or sneak and free to discuss. I am doing this slowly as I expect her to swing back and forth on it.
Hugs, Ellen

[Teresa]

Sherry,
Maybe we could change it to DWTSI, = Don't want to see it .
OK I go out socially , we do discuss it sometimes and some of the problems some have and maybe a funny moment.

Whatever you choose to call the situation it's not ideal, there are always things left unsaid, and many things being withheld , but if that's how they deal with it we don't have a choice. I asked sometime ago in a thread if members enjoyed the double life , I have to accept it's as good as it gets, my wife also accepts I'm living a double life, I'm not sure how happy she is with it but that's what DADT is all about.

[LaurenDeHart]

The only way DADT could apply to us is if it were difficult to identify us as male when we're dressed and about. Don't ask, don't tell. However, that's not reality IMHO. We dress to our tastes and embellish for pleasurable effect. That's means something different to each and every one of us. So, I don't think DADT could possibly apply to our lifestyle as it is out there right in front, even in our own homes. It's not like we're talking about doing our toe nails then slipping on socks. I vote for SHL.

Lauren

[Susan Smith]

For me it has the same meaning as 'don't rub my nose in it'. My wife knows I like to dress in a feminine way occassionaly, but doesn't want to be constantly reminded of it. Sometimes she's very relaxed about it (even does my nails for me) but that's on her terms, not mine. Susan

[JenniferMBlack]

I dont have a DADT situation now nut before it was i dont care that you do it or when tou do it or how you do it. I just dint want to see it or know about it before during or after. Much the same as with everythimg else i did she had no interest in. It got to when she asked what I did on my day off what eber it was she would say oh thats good dont care any more. Now we are divorced and she womders why.

[Stephanie47]

If it truly "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" it should mean a total absence of any reminders of a husband's cross dressing. Is it "sneaking" if the only opportunity for a man to dress is when his wife is out of the house or he dresses away from home? Does a wife really expect her husband to respond to a question like "What are you going to do while I'm visiting my parents out of state?" She should know hubby is going to dress. Is it lieing to pay cash for female clothing so she is not riled up about credit card purchases? I think not.

My wife has not made a single comment about my cross dressing in over thirty years. I do not tell her of my purchases. I do not shave my body, although I do not have any hair on my legs or underarms anyway. I get somewhat amused when I read posts of DADT and the husband decides to shave off his body hair. Is that DADT? To go from hairy ape to body bald? No. Is it DADT to grow out fingernails that now look like claws. No. It is not DADT if the wife makes caustic remarks about cross dressing while watching advertisements or shows in which a man wearing a dress appears.

I do not
Sneak
Hide
Lie

[Steph65]

I do not have a DSAHDLT situmentation here. My wife does not mind at all. Could all that mean deceiving? could be but you have to remember in this day and age things are starting to be more accepting and the old Church mentoring is out the door. JMHO

[Rogina B]

Sherry,
Maybe we could change it to DWTSI, = Don't want to see it .

Seems to me to be the ultimate put down ! How many years together? It baffles me how some of you aren't able to be free.

[Laura912]

We have a DAIAT relationship...dress anytime in any thing. It is wonderful.

[Sara Jessica]

Seems to me to be the ultimate put down ! How many years together? It baffles me how some of you aren't able to be free.

It baffles me how many here just cannot empathize with the women in our lives who struggle daily with this thing of ours.


Back to our original programming....

DADT implies a lack of communication and it certainly could include that element without completely degenerating into SHL territory. There is however merit to the notion of not rubbing her nose in it. I called this elsewhere yeah, whatever (y,w) which is how things are in my world. It's like "do what you will, I really don't need to see it or be involved so much, but if it comes up in conversation for whatever reason, I am certainly capable of talking about it".

[JeanTG]

Sara Jessica, I agree. "It's not all about me" is a good starting point for any dialogue.

DADT means whatever Mrs. wants it to mean. Mine struggles with this. She's known since well before we married but still can't wrap her head around it. She knows it happens but prefers not to have anything to do with it. She knows if I repress it, I become angry and frustrated and a bitch to live with. She doesn't want that either. The compromise is for me to make it happen on my own time and my own dime and she knows when she's not home, the chances are almost 100% that I will dress. But we know I'm a crossdresser, we have no fear of using the term "crossdresser" when talking about me, and she is wide-open and accepting of panties 24/7.

Would I love more? Sure. Would I love to be able to stay dressed even after she gets home? Of course. Would I love for her to help me unhook my bra as I get undressed for bed, and then be OK with me slipping on a nightie and going to bed? Absolutely. But it isn't happening any time soon.

So we take it at a pace she can stand, without blocking me entirely which I couldn't stand.

[phili]

Let's face it, DADT is a coping technique of human nature- also called IATPMHITS I agree to put my head in the sand- ok enough acronym jokes, but we who do DADT understand that our SOs are trying to cope, and just like a lot of things, we are a binary star system, so we have to adjust- and try not to have it be SHL! Our SOs suffer from realizing they have to not ask either what we are doing when they are away, so we won't tell them, and that is a drag for them since it brings back the knowledge despite our not telling !

I am trying to be philosophical, and measured in my approach. My wife understands it is a deep thing, and a quirk of nature somehow, but she is an ADCOAA [adult child of an alcoholic- ok I made that up] and she is trying the best she can to not suffer from someone else [me] who has deep problems [in her view]. We're seeing a counselor, who encourages her to be more generous in her attitude and not to feel like I am controlling her life just by having a differing point of view. Relationship is a complex stew under any circumstances.

I have had to admit that for me crossdressing is a doorway shortcut to nirvana, permits my fantasy world to come alive- and I can easily justify it! But listening to politicians justifying taking away medical care from the poor exemplifies for me the fact that we tend to be blind to others' needs, and simplify our reasoning so we can maximize our pleasure, wherever we can.

My conclusion is that DADT is a pretty good compromise, as it essentially allows us as DocSherry says, to have what we want/need with a minimum of disruption to others for whom our desires are threatening or disturbing or unhinging [my wife]. I ask when she is coming home, and I set my alarm so I can change clothes at my own pace and know how long I have to enjoy freely! I have my clothes in the bedroom closet, and she has to put up with some exposure when I dry my handwash lingerie. I think she accepts that as part of her cost, and that works as long as it is not so painful it upsets the bargain. I create a little relief so I don't explode- sometimes I tell her I can't wait till she is gone, and she puts up with the view, but her numbness is painful.

IMHO DADT is SP- Shared Pain. I suspect all our SOs in DADT are quite aware that we are dressing and that it is something that they have decreed we are not sharing, and that bothers them a lot. They are trying to stay with us and immunize themselves against our cooties, and thanks to human nature being able to focus only on one thing at a time, life can go on pretty well.

I have to admit that even if she was super supportive, it wouldn't change conditions outside the house, so I would be focused on the limitations there and could be unhappy about that instead. So I don't take the point of view she /DADT is unreasonable. Everyone in the world is suffering from gender binary training, and coping as best they can.

[Shelly Preston]

DADT will mean slightly different things thing to each couple.

Some will have the completely I don't want to know or see anything.

To some others it will mean we have a compromise. I know what your doing and I will try to help by giving you the time and space you need.

[Tina_gm]

In response to Sarah Jessica.... whenever I see the complaining oder a DADT arrangement, I think two things. 1, they the complainer agreed with the arranged to, and 2. Have little regard for their struggling partner who could easily pack their bags and say to hell with this.

This DADT arrangement is more of their loving way of allowing us to be ourselves then most realize. It's not a prison, it's a loving compromise. In the end it doesn't fully matter why our partners are struggling to accept us. Genetics of heterosexuality.... social issues, religious aspects.... whatever they are, our partners are going against that grain accepting often as best they can to allow us to be ourselves and continue being with us. Discussing something they do not like or understand, the discussions will rarely go well. Seeing us in a manner they do not. The reactions generally won't go well. DADT is or can be a great relationship saver AND we no longer hide, sneak and lie, and more than likely dress more than we did before.

[sometimes_miss]

During the declining months of my marriage we went abruptly from a seemingly accepting situation to, DADT. Obviously, she knew I dressed, but she no longer wanted to see it. So, back in the closet I went. But, as folks here often say, you can't unrighteousness a bell , or unscramble an egg.
^This reflects my experience. As she got firmly convinced by others that I had done something horrible, she gradually got very angry with me, to the point where whenever we brought it up, she became furious. That was when she started trying to get me to move out. Luckily, I was told by friends not to, until we had a legal separation in place. Turns out she would have been able to just claim abandonment or something and the house would have defaulted to her.

[Joni T]

My wife and I have NO secrets. What DADT means to me is this: if you're doing something that you don't want your spouse/SO to know about, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
Jon

[Rogina B]

Seems to me that by agreeing to "the terms" you are acknowledging that it is a perversion of sorts.

[Tina_gm]

Regina, I do not have a full DADT arrangement.... we have discussions, my nails are typically on the long side, I shave just about everywhere.... and I'm not REALLY arguing with you, I prefer to say I'm counter pointing. Especially when it comes to those who didn't disclose till many years into marriage.

If in that situation especially, the wife won't ever "like it" and many hetero women simply won't, due to being hetero, what is there really to discuss? Present female NOW after so long.... in their eyes ya didn't NEED to then, don't need to now. And in a way, they are right. It's just a better for some way of dealing with it all.

My wife doesn't like seeing me dressed. Tried it once finally, and it turned into a disaster. She's not leaving me over it. Still can be intimate with me, shaved legs and all. But me wearing women's clothing is just a train wreck for her. It just is what it is. It's not any type of I shouldn't, in fact as I sit here tapping this out she's giving me time to dress. So I just counter this notion of DADT being some sort of living hell as a workable arrangement. Obviously not the case with those who are ts, or much more on the female side then make side, but for those us straddling the fence, its not perfect, but better then alternatives.

[Karen's Secret]

In my house it means dress when my wife and kids are not home. All I have to do is tell her I need some time and she will accommodate me without judgement. She's okay with me underdressing as long as the outline of my bra is not obvious. We can talk about clothes, shop for clothes only if it looks like she is shopping for herself, and she has no problem borrowing my clothes. I know I have it better than others, however I would of course like to be more at liberty to dress when, where, and how I want.

[ginapoodle]

Excellent question and I appreciate the sharing.

For my wife and I basically I have my femme clothes up in a suitcase on a high shelf in my closet. When she is out of the house, or rarely out of town I dress. Sometimes I do under dress. She does NOT want to see me in anything, or any makeup, ever. She goes to tears. God help her, she tried to accommodate me about ten years ago, it was too much. We are close to 30 years married now, and I keep the secret 20 years. We did the counseling, etc and modern media has shown I am not the only CD on the planet. Also when I travel alone, I also dress and take items. It is called compromise. Every relationship is different. I do admit wishing she was more understanding. Also I do not have the courage to be rejected again, hence I have shut down any communication on my F self. Otherwise we communicate pretty well. Guess that's it for now. I don't see the situation changing unless I got really proactive and courageous and took enormous risks.

[Leslie Langford]

Interesting thread, but none of the responders who have posted above so far seem to have addressed the core issue here - and the proverbial elephant in the room.

Call it DADT, SHL, DWTSI, DSAHDLT, IATPMHITS, y,w,... IDK, whatever...it all boils down to one thing: by setting up these "rules", our wives or SO's force us into a position of feeling dirty and ashamed (read: "pervy") for being who we are and what we are driven to do. Moreover, they then oblige us to sneak around behind their backs to be able to clandestinely express this part of ourselves as though we were some sort of criminals...all for the sake of alleged "marital harmony", and just to keep the lady of the house in a state of delusional (but "blissful") ignorance. That, of course, is the biggest joke (supreme irony?) of all about this whole thing. What harmony, and really, who are we kidding here?

Sure, many of us entered into our long-term relationships with our wives or SO's without full disclosure upfront, and the reasons (excuses?) as well as the pros and cons around this fateful and far-reaching decision on our parts have been beaten to death ad nauseum in innumerable threads here, so I won't even go there. I am as guilty of this act of omission as the next person here, but it is what it is. And yes, putting our wives or SO's in a position of being "stuck" with a crossdresser against their will and without their prior knowledge is something that we are generally prepared to own and acknowledge, hence our acquiescence in allowing ourselves to be manipulated in this way through the sheer power of guilt.

But the most corrosive and debilitating aspect of this whole DADT-esque scenario and the one which hasn't been addressed properly here is that our wives and SO's never get to know their "real" partner because of this...not the "sanitized" image that is presented to the rest of the world, not the idealized version that they so desperately cling to, not the "perfect" husband/boyfriend/life partner/father/male role model illusion that they strive to maintain, but the one with all the ugly (albeit unseen) warts and associated baggage that their partners carry along with all their good points, but that no one wants to acknowledge or talk about.

I feel confident that I know my wife - and what makes her "tick" - inside and out after having lived with her during the past 45 years of marriage. But when it comes to myself, there is a whole other side of me that she knows nothing about, nor wants to. This is not a lie that I really want to live given my 'druthers, yet at the same time, she wonders why we don't share the same level of intimacy - and "soulmate" bond - that other couples whom we know seem to. So sad...

THAT, unfortunately, is the real curse of DADT and the like...

[ginapoodle]

Leslie,

My wife gave a strong attempt at getting to know Gina. She was overwhelmed. Timing was also bad: mother killed in car wreck, father also severely injured, and our oldest daughter graduated from high school and went to college. I also switched jobs. Everything hit the fan all at once. Wife went into depression for 2 years. That was about ten years ago. So, my point: timing and waves and changes in a long term relationship make a difference. I am grateful to be married, and never divorced. I am also grateful we get along as well as we do. Agree though: it is sad and I feel lonely. I refuse to feel guilty though. Self acceptance is strong. I recently had a friend show some strong interest in Gina, and that sparked some internal focus on my F self, and now what. Thank you.

[Wen4cd]

Seems to me that by agreeing to "the terms" you are acknowledging that it is a perversion of sorts.

I wouldn't say that. But it is an extremely self-centered, often extremely narcissistic pastime. A side of us most of our wives would rather not care to acknowledge or foster, and one no one finds very attractive (except ourselves of course, and those we cherry-pick as friends just for that reason, which is just the nature of the beast.)

Most wives I know would gladly tolerate a pervert husband over a selfish, greedy, narcissist one any day.

[Tina_gm]

Has anyone stopped and thought about the fact that the wives or girlfriends are just heterosexual? We tall about being who we are and the total freedom to do so and be so. We shouldn't be "forced" into living in some way we are not..... well, then I guess we shouldn't ask or expect our partners into a sexual orientation they are not. Two choices here, go our own way or take the sometimes hard compromises. No one said life was ever easy.

[alwayshave]

It baffles me how many here just cannot empathize with the women in our lives who struggle daily with this thing of ours.

Sara, using the phrase "this thing of ours" i.e., la cosa nostra, made it seem like we are in the mafia.

My relationship is open with regards to my crossdressing, she has seen my dressed, gone out with me. However she has also threatened me about it. She also has told me that my dressing makes her feel that she is not enough for me. I temper the amount of dressing I do to let her know she has a man.

[Sara Jessica]

"This thing of ours" is a phrase coined by (or simply used frequently by) a friend of mine and to me, it is a way to convey the wide variety of both behaviors and states of being underneath a TG umbrella. There is certainly nothing nefarious intended in phrasing it in this way.

Case in point as to why I try to paint with such a broad brush, you go on to talk about your relationship with regards to your crossdressing which doesn't really apply to what my own wife copes with in our relationship. You are not being exclusionary in simply being specific and descriptive. Alternatively, I was making my point to illustrate that all of our respective SO's have to deal with the seemingly limitless ways as to how TG is presented in their own lives.

[marsha leanne]

I told my wife up front that i sometimes enjoyed wearing women's clothes. I expected her to run and hide, she didn't. She also said she did not wish to participate. now 22 years later, she gives me her schedule a week in advance, and we have a rule that applies to both of us, we call before coming home, as much for both letting the other know, and what route we will use, in case something happens.

There have been a couple of times when she surprised me by pulling up unannounced, and i have made the 'mad dash' to the bedroom to change, it is usually accompanied by a ' oh sorry, i forgot to call'. The paranoia on my part is a reflection of the horrific response i got from wife one and the disastrous ruination of that marriage. (in hind site a great thing as i now have my current wife).

While this all seems great, she has never seen me dressed although she has discovered where some of my underthings were kept. as far as i know, she has never looked there again. She has made a couple of attempts to open the door to discussion, but i was not ready. but thanks to these pages and all of you, that may change soon.

so for me dadt is just that. I can go a head and dress, and i won't tell you about it, and i know you dress, i'll give you time, but i won't ask about it. Now that the kids are gone and we are both retired, the tenseness of the situation has dropped considerably and i have plenty of time to enjoy Marsha. The door has opened up a bit to full disclosure and sharing, (when i am ready to take that step). My fear is still very strong and it will start with a lot of discussion.

[Lorileah]

We shouldn't be "forced" into living in some way we are not..... well, then I guess we shouldn't ask or expect our partners into a sexual orientation they are not.

No one should be forced into anything

But you assume it is sexual when most here will tell you it isn't. When the clothes come off they are just men

[Teresa]

Leslie,
Well written, I can't add to it .

[mykell]

Seems to me to be the ultimate put down ! How many years together? It baffles me how some of you aren't able to be free.


Seems to me that by agreeing to "the terms" you are acknowledging that it is a perversion of sorts.


interesting interpretations, is finding common ground by both parties not a good thing, why is it a put down if they do not understand it, many wives do not understand a husbands interest or obsession in (insert your beef here) but love them enough to let them indulge in it.

is our spouses inability to understand your desire to (insert theyre beef here) and you agreeing to "terms" a perversion....we all have free will, if we go to far they have free will, now add in all the uncomfortable repercussions of ones decision to plod on and keep doing (insert the beef here) when asked not to or at least not abide by some agreed upon provisions.

we all have "terms" in many of the relationships we have in general.....family, friends, spouses, associates, teammates, colleges, and i would guess how we relate and act between them are as various as the chances of winning the lottery....if someone wants to have a spouse who hides theyre head in the sand thats theyre prerogative, did not work for me, if you interpret it as sneaking, cheating, hiding and lying but it works for someone else does that make it sneaking, cheating, hiding, lying ??? if someone agreed to a plan of action to enjoy theyre fondness of (insert beef here) and it keeps everyone involved in a state of bliss who are we to question it or have them defend it....

[docrobbysherry]

Mikell, that was so beautifully put!:thumbsup:
Whatever it takes for 2 people to stay together? I say, "Hurray for them!"

I failed badly in my marriage!:thumbsdn:

But, I WOULD like those that sneak, hide, and lie to call it that. Because even if they won't tell the truth to their SO's, they should be able to themselves, don't u think?:straightface:

[Wen4cd]

Sherry there's a school of thought that says it's tyranny which creates liars. The liars themselves are only a result of managing life under a tyrannical system as best one can.

In the heyday USSR, or the Third Reich, imagine having to sneak around to hear a popular song or read forbidden literature. The only entity that would call them sneaks and liars is the very entity which is oppressing them. Everyone on the outside would just see someone surviving, scraping up a life out of a very bad situation.

[Julie Gaum]

Leslie, it has been a long time since we have exchanged posts but I had to comment how well you put into words the DADT subject. You covered the bases better than anything I've read so far. Sure, many will be upset with that view for varied reasons that eventually become hollow - so be it.
Best
Julie

[Becky Blue]

Very interesting thread and i don't think it means the same thing to many couples. I feel that in many cases it actually means permissible lying. By this I mean what the wife thinks the husband is/does and what is he/she actually is or does is not the same.

[stephenie3756]

Ginapoodle - sort of the same situation here. My clothes and such are all hidden away and I dress when I can. It is worth it to me to get up a 1/2 hour earlier during the week, dress, eat breakfast, undress, and then head to work. I am out the door for work before anyone else in the house has to get up. When I go on business trips, dresses and heels come with me and I can dress in the hotel. Business trips are also when I go shopping for my dresses and heels. She wants nothing to do with my crossdressing. She found out 5 years into our marriage, put up with it at first and then it was too much. We did counseling and such, but she wants nothing to do with it. So, back into the closet I went. Coming up on being married for 25 years. I envy those crossdressers whose wives are supportive. In retrospect, I wish I had found a woman that was supportive before I got married. But I can not change the past. Only deal with the present...

[Teresa]

Wen ,
Sorry but but I hope that comment is from your personal experience ?

Why do so many of us tear ourselves apart, we have to get over thoughts like being selfish, greedy, self centered and narcissistic , most therapists have to work hard to get that out of our heads because they are irrelevant and destructive thoughts, otherwise most of us wouldn't function as human beings .

There is very little we can do with what is locked in our brains, we have to learn to live with our needs and beating ourselves up and allowing others to use those description is no help at all.
Personally I have been a good husband and father, trying so hard to provide for them all and give them the best, there comes a point when we have to accept there is a side of us that has needs , it's hard enough coming to terms with them without damming ourselves with so many destructive labels.

I do agree with you on the lies and deceit . My father was an overpowering bully , we came to blows once which wasn't good , him being about 280 lbs and me about 150 lbs, but of the many things he called me at the time deceit was one of them , my answer at the time was , " You made me like that !"
I still don't like that feeling now over my dressing but again the DADT has made me like that, it's not a good for someone to come back to that through another persons actions ! I choose not to beat myself up over it and call it a double life , my wife said that to me without me prompting her.

Rogina is basically right, we have rights as well, finding how to exercise them is the real problem .

[mykell]

Mikell, that was so beautifully put!:thumbsup:
Whatever it takes for 2 people to stay together? I say, "Hurray for them!"

I failed badly in my marriage!:thumbsdn:

But, I WOULD like those that sneak, hide, and lie to call it that. Because even if they won't tell the truth to their SO's, they should be able to themselves, don't u think?:straightface:


thanks for the props sherry, i just try to keep it real.

how did you fail in your matrimonial arrangement, two parties were involved, seems a shared endeavor and who could predict any outcome ?

i think hide, sneak, and lie would be more of a trait of someone who did not disclose this proclivity to a partner which i believe is something that is up to each individuals own need....but once you reveal yourself to a daughter in your case or a spouse the descriptors of lie, sneak or hide are irrelevant, you told them, its now how do they deal with your truth.... accept, understand, learn who we are, dont assume we are a deviant or pervert.....just a person with a different interest, a dad a husband a provider and yes....still a lover, not someone to be despised....my opinion, i could be wrong.

[Stacy Darling]

So what does that acronym mean to me?

I genetically can't lie and have fully come out to my wife ( not recommended ) No compromises coming!

So, I can sleep well at night knowing that I have been honest. I also have nice timber flooring to sleep on!

We all are in different situations and some of us need to bend the rules a bit, So bend them!

Going now,
Emotional Stacy

[Leslie Mary S]

I was in the military when the label of DADT first was used by the US military. I was so deep into my private closet I wasn't worried. It was originally aimed at sexual habits back then. Now it is used with many things that are on the edge of illegal/social areas. Things that if what you are doing could cost your job.

[Wen4cd]

Wen ,
Sorry but but I hope that comment is from your personal experience ?
Why do so many of us tear ourselves apart, we have to get over thoughts like being selfish, greedy, self centered and narcissistic , most therapists have to work hard to get that out of our heads because they are irrelevant and destructive thoughts, otherwise most of us wouldn't function as human beings .

These ideas are anything but irrelevant. A therapy that doesn't include accepting the greedy, selfish, narcissistic dark side of CDing is simply bad medicine.
Even worse, is the tendency in modern therapy for the therapist to cheat the client completely, and instead of addressing the individual and helping them face difficult internals, just simply tossing them into an easy prefab category and saying "people in your category do this because of 'need' and that's the fact." Sweeping things under the rug won't do at all. Nor will censoring certain thoughts as 'bad.'


There is very little we can do with what is locked in our brains, we have to learn to live with our needs and beating ourselves up and allowing others to use those description is no help at all.

I think we all could do with a lot more beating ourselves up in that case, because there is plenty we can do with what is locked in our heads if we're not ruled by fear of words, and it's more helpful to take ownership of these things ourselves than to be at the mercy of 'others,' for as we see here, this conceit points to the ludicrous assumption that you are somehow going to control what 'others' use as a description of you.

If you want to be really horrified, just think about what others are NOT saying to you - what they're thinking, and what they're always acting upon - but what they're never, ever saying to you. Can you disallow that? No, but you can take ownership of a label that bothers you and then you are empowered, not destroyed.

I AM a greedy, selfish narcissist. What of it? I pay my taxes. Like you, I also work very hard to provide for my family, and am never unavailable to them for anything they want or need, emotionally, physically, technically, or financially if I can provide it. Like everyone, I will die when the time comes. So... ?


Personally I have been a good husband and father, trying so hard to provide for them all and give them the best, there comes a point when we have to accept there is a side of us that has needs , it's hard enough coming to terms with them without damming ourselves with so many destructive labels.

I'm sure you have been a good provider, but you are using the past tense already, as if you are preparing for the plunge. Why not say: "I AM a good husband, proivider and father." And continue to be one - but one who also provides for your own wellbeing?

I agree that we can accept that we have needs, but I think that it's the much more difficult and painful challenge to accept that we have wants. Our egoes do revolt at the idea as destructive, but most people are not genuinely harmed by having some of that ego pruned a bit. I think it is a more beneficial way to view things in the long run. Framing as a 'need' seems to absolve us and protect our ego, but it also injects helplessness, both in ourselves and in our partners, and it can set off an unconscious karmatic process that can ultimately self-fulfill. I've seen so many people in this community take this tack over the years and it always seems to lead to being nailed on a cross.

A spouse who sees your dressing or gender picture as selfish desire may not like it or be attracted to it, but they can still respect it, save face, and remain herself, the relationship becomes more faceted, more sinewy, but is still a relationship between two equals.

One who is faced with a 'special needs' partner who is now above criticism, or sheltering behind the shield of a 'condition' is going to feel on a nightmare ride to a destination she has no control over and thusly is going to panic and seek escape, breaking the relationship in a tragic way that will be seen as a loss to an illness.

[Teresa]

Wen,
I'm still not with this argument, you can only stand so much self punishment trying to appease others, before you're driven to the point of nearly ending your life , it's a road I intend never to take again.

As for what others think , whatever they do say or think isn't going to change what's locked inside our brains, besides the assumption is the people saying these things live perfect lives, without faults and weaknesses .

Yes I do use the past tense because of my age , it's why I say all those labels you used are mentally destructive , I don't know how long this window will be open to me, I'm still prepared to serve the male part of me, but I've made it clear part of that has now gone . Some of it is solely down to age and some to living the part I have suppressed for nearly fifty years . I really don't need to beat myself up over those labels, I've done it far too long, my gender counsellor was deeply concerned over the level of suppression I had lived with there was no suggestion of sweeping things under the carpet. To care about what other people think is almost irrelevant , and I have told my family this , It's the only way I will continue to function as human being.

None of us are beyond criticism but there are two sorts , destructive and constructive , there is far too much of the former and not enough of the latter, I've no intention of sheltering behind the shield of CDing , in fact I'm trying to do the opposite and be totally open and honest , I don't want it damage my relationships, I'm afraid others may end up doing that by throwing those labels in the mix.

[Leslie Langford]

Well said, Teresa!

"I Am CD, Hear Me Roar!" (with apologies to singer Helen Reddy) ;)

[Michelle (Oz)]

i think hide, sneak, and lie would be more of a trait of someone who did not disclose this proclivity to a partner which i believe is something that is up to each individuals own need....but once you reveal yourself to a daughter in your case or a spouse the descriptors of lie, sneak or hide are irrelevant, you told them, its now how do they deal with your truth.... accept, understand, learn who we are, dont assume we are a deviant or pervert.....just a person with a different interest, a dad a husband a provider and yes....still a lover, not someone to be despised....my opinion, i could be wrong.
Well said Mikell.

My take (read 'situation') on DADT is that it is constantly evolving sometimes in a positive fashion and sometimes regressing. My wife has moved from threatening suicide almost 5 years ago when I revealed that my need/desire to crossdress had returned, to now agreeing to me regularly dressing at home when she is present before going out. The absolute no-no for her is seeing me in any stage of dress. Sure that limits the integration of my femme and male sides but that's a small price to pay for a happy and loving marriage.

It has taken considerable patience and respect to get to this stage.

I think that many on this forum could look back dispassionately at the time since their SOs became aware of the crossdressing and agree that their situation had improved.

[CarlaWestin]

I've read all of the posts and there is certainly a lot of spot on observances. I'm about three years into DADT and here's what it's become. I don't have to hide anything anymore so my female wardrobe has grown tenfold. My wife still strongly feels that I'm just a deplorable pervert because of my crossdressing although she was open for anything when we met. It's referred to as my "prancing around" time. And it's been mentioned that we're now more like brother and sister. The relationship is loving and thoughtful now but, it's different. Interesting, after my first marriage and in between relationship, I was determined to find someone accepting or just remain single. And here I am married to someone who is unaccepting.

So, I'm holding on to hope that our DADT might just be a resting plateau to let acceptance catch up. She might soften up on it or, she might not. It is what it is.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Leslie;

"...it all boils down to one thing: by setting up these "rules", our wives or SO's force us into a position of feeling dirty and ashamed (read: "pervy") for being who we are and what we are driven to do. Moreover, they then oblige us to sneak around behind their backs to be able to clandestinely express this part of ourselves as though we were some sort of criminals...all for the sake of alleged "marital harmony", and just to keep the lady of the house in a state of delusional (but "blissful") ignorance. That, of course, is the biggest joke (supreme irony?) of all about this whole thing. What harmony, and really, who are we kidding here?"


How can this be seen as forcing anyone to do anything ? most people in DADT relationships started out with years of hiding and lying their dressing from their spouses. it often is a surprise and shock for the spouse. Most times a spouse needs time to just get a grip on this new situation. As far being made to feel dirty or shameful, there is both True Guilt and False Guilt. learning to know the difference is very helpful. There are many stories on the site where couples have moved from DADT to open discussions to even acceptance.

Never loose hope.

[Leslie Langford]

Easily said, Kelly, if a person is one of those fortunate CDers who started off in a DADT-type relationship that ultimately morphed into a more tolerant, accepting, or even "meh! whatever..." situation once their wife or SO got their heads around this new reality, agreed let them do their own thing without being hassled over it, and stopped making it the perpetual elephant in the room. Not all of us are that fortunate, however.

DADT by definition is an uneasy, unfulfilling compromise, and not unlike the tenuous truce often referred to as the Cold War that we had to endure for decades on the international political front, and which is now poised to re-establish itself globally the way relations between countries are starting to deteriorate once again.

In any marriage or long term relationship, DADT represents an asymmetrical power imbalance where - in our particular case - the spouse or SO holds most of the cards in dictating the rules of engagement. Show me one CDer who is blissfully happy to be in a DADT situation as opposed to just settling for the crumbs that have been thrown their way.

[Kelly DeWinter]

sometimes it's helpful to hear from GG's on this subject. If you see conflict's as a power play where there are only winners or losers, then that's what you get a winner and a looser. Relationships are and have always been about compromise. Most people who have a knee jerk reaction to new information really need time to assimilate and ponder.

I understand you see it as a "power imbalance" , I'm just suggesting you try seeing it as something else.

[Rogina B]

My wife still strongly feels that I'm just a deplorable pervert because of my crossdressing although she was open for anything when we met. It's referred to as my "prancing around" time. And it's been mentioned that we're now more like brother and sister. The relationship is loving and thoughtful now but, it's different. Interesting, after my first marriage and in between relationship, I was determined to find someone accepting or just remain single. And here I am married to someone who is unaccepting.

I think many dressers can't explain their needs and that is what keeps them in the "weird" column. Fetishes are very hard to explain to the vanilla world. There are people here that get off on a bra under their male clothes or dressing as a teen,etc. I think it is this "weirdness" that causes some of the problems. I find that "fetishists" are often very selfish and only focused on themselves. This can make a spouse feel that "if discovered" she will be "seriously damaged goods" to the vanilla world around her.

[Wen4cd]

Wen,
I'm still not with this argument, you can only stand so much self punishment trying to appease others, before you're driven to the point of nearly ending your life , it's a road I intend never to take again yada yada yada....


Teresa, fine. Do whatever you want to do with your life and have fun. I don't care much what people think either, except for my own conscience. But before I sit back and munch buttery popcorn while watching you become your gender counselor's next great success, I'll make one more obsrvation only and keep the rest to myself. Maybe you'll find it constructive.

I've seen your exact situation happen over and over, for decades. Enough where, generally, I already know how it will progress. You have been reading, verbatim, from the approved narrative script which I've heard countless times from countless CD's for many years. You are not thinking critically, you are not stepping back and analyzing your emotions in any meanignful way, you are just rotely repeating the same cherrypicked information that supports, or seems to support, the status quo narrative that you have been led to subscribe to. You are currently set on a path that was laid out for you.

You might want to break outside this narrative and look at alternative schools of thought before you commit the rest of your life to this dogma, even if just for fresh perspective.

Sanford's "Invisible Partners" is a good start.



My wife still strongly feels that I'm just a deplorable pervert

Carla, how dare she think that?!?!? You are not remotely deplorable! :heehee:

[docrobbysherry]

I think many dressers can't explain their needs and that is what keeps them in the "weird" column. Fetishes are very hard to explain to the vanilla world. There are people here that get off on a bra under their male clothes or dressing as a teen,etc. I think it is this "weirdness" that causes some of the problems. I find that "fetishists" are often very selfish and only focused on themselves. This can make a spouse feel that "if discovered" she will be "seriously damaged goods" to the vanilla world around her.
Thanks, Rogina!:thumbsup:
This supports my theory of why we have at least 6 "pantie threads" running constantly here!:brolleyes:

[Sarasometimes]

DADT is Don't Ask Don't Tell not sure what your question is? She doesn't want me to ask her if I can go get my wig styled or to tell her that that is what I did. If you prefer to call it something else that is your option it doesn't mean that applies to my situation.
No one here knows anyone else's situation well enough to really counsel them on how to conduct themselves. Doc would it be appropriate for anyone hear to advise you on how to relate to YOUR adult daughter living with you? I would think not.

[docrobbysherry]

Not true, Sara. It was, in fact, urging from those here that convinced me to tell her and stop my SHL dressing.:doh:

It was the best decision in my dressing life, by the way!:thumbsup:

[Tina_gm]

Ultimately what I think we can all do best for each other is support each other, regardless of how we as individuals decide on how to live our lives. We can counsel, and sometimes should. Give advice based on our experiences and from others we may know.

How we choose to live and how someone else chooses to is still as right for them as our choices are for us.

It is only when I see someone so frustrated by limitations they have, or non accepting people in their lives, mostly partners do I ever suggest a really evaluation. Even then, someone who chooses to quit altogether or just be in deep hiding.... or someone chooses to do a full 180 on their lives, it's all good with me.

[Sarasometimes]

Doc, that just happened to work out for you and you must have been considering it for the subject to come up. Like the stock market "Previous successes do not assure future ones." If the advise here was throw her out she is an adult that would have worked too. It would have serious consequences but it would work. My point is only you know the situation intimately enough to make the choice. i am very happy for you that the advise worked out well but the next time we try to do that we may be wrong. I urge cautions when seeking online advise, heck even if it is just which TV to buy.

[phili]

DADT feels asymmetrical, if we limit our consideration to our particular desire- but perhaps it is fair to say that for many of us our version of DADT is actually symmetrical, in that both partners are coming to an agreement that requires different things to be given up, but of roughly equal significance. I can tell myself that my wife's asking me to give her space to stick her head in the sand to feel better is not as difficult as me having to wear pants so she will have something more familiar emotionally to see when she looks at me, [when I don't want to- if I consider just my own desires], but after reading 25 posts here, I took another look.

So on behalf of the DADT crowd, I say we are doing what is normal in a committed relationship. Gender identity is not as superficial as political leanings, or hobby interests, but it is perhaps similar to tending to talk too much, or being afraid of the dark, or hating your parents- all of which can be disturbing to relationship, and which have to be moderated and managed somehow- albeit in an unsatisfying way.

It has been really helpful to me to be at peace with our agreement's details. It embodies and conveys respect, including for all that is unsaid and unknown. It conveys trust because at some point we have to believe our SOs when they say it is too hard for them to see us. It lowers tension, and is the basis for me then to be fully present when in drab, as I see it as a positive thing I am doing for my wife, like bringing her her favorite chocolate. And she has expressed appreciation for that, which could only happen when she doesn't feel any resentment from me. And that affirmation of DADT as something we agree on, without feelings of asymettrical power intruding, gives room for incremental expansion in my opportunities to dress- i.e. she sees me in a blouse leaving for a meeting, and I change out of it when I get home, and that is something that feels good to me. I wear a skirt and blouse in the mornings sometimes, and as she is engrossed in the paper, it seems to be becoming acceptable. I think it is because the pain level for her is low, and she is not making a case over something small. Of course...leaving crumbs on the counter- that is another story!

The point is we are not fighting, we are silently negotiating and showing respect and restraint. Does my desire feel unsatisfied- yes. Is hers unsatisfied? Yes. I think it is unavoidable in marriage, so DADT on crossdressing is similar to DADT over anything else that is one of the points of lifelong mismatch in just about every marriage. Like good negotiators, we have to concentrate on points of agreement and maximize our satisfactions there, while respecting the wide range of desires/needs that all have to coexist somehow in everyone's life.

In the 60s we were struggling with how to make free love work, and free food, etc. It wasn't really practical, so I have come to view the fulfillment of all our desires as an unreachable fantasy- and to be much happier with what I do get, rather than discount it!

[Tina_gm]

On this Phili, minus the symmetry, I'm not getting that, but your last paragraph I am I'm a lot of agreement. My wife has asked me not to dress in her presence. As in please don't. Wasn't a demand. Her reasoning is it makes her feel uncomfortable. It was tried once. She has told me more than once, if she didn't accept me she would have left. I trust her on this. She makes many accommodations for me to dress. She has discomfort seeing me dressed as a female she can't shake. And that comfort she knows will make me feel rejected even though in actual reality it's not her rejecting me. I know some on here feel that it is. So she respects me giving me a lot of time and space, I respect her by not dressing in her presence. Not perfect, but neither is life in general. It is and has been a very workable compromise for both of us.

[ClosetED]

DADT/ SHL is not accepting that this is a perversion - it is accepting that your SO considers it that way and, due to your love of that person, you are willing to SHL to not force them to change their mind. We can hope that with time, with changes in society, and continued love that they will no longer see it as significant a perversion and be more accepting. My wife has and I am glad. She still has fears that wax and wane, so I take it slow.
Hugs, Ellen