umbrella for trans gender lent from Dr Bowers

[barbara gordon]

I was fortunate last week to hear a lecture by Dr Marci Bowers. at the lgbt center in NY NY .

She is a well known surgeon who has helped women , men, and transgendered people find confidence in their anatomy . She is also mtf transgender . there were a good mix of people at the lecture including crossdressers mtf trans , ftm trans . and many "straight " cis people ho were in the social work and medical fields .

She spoke about a wide range of things with a great slideshow as backdrop. here is one that I thought had some resonance with a topic we debate here often . I am sorry that the text in the photo couldn't be more readable , but the headlines tell a lot .

Also , Dr Bowers talked about the the idea that gender is not really about clothing and its not about genitals. you can be transgendered without ever needing modifying your body .

[Allison Chaynes]

Unfortunately when I try to blow this up on my phone, it's blurry. Any web links maybe?

[Morion]

Sorry, I cannot really make it out either (even headlines), on PC. Perhaps the forum limits the size of images?

It sounds like it was a fascinating lecture to attend, however.

[barbara gordon]

274785


sorry its so blurry it was a difficult image to get . this might work ..

the "umbrella"

reads underneath it transexuals, crossdressers,intersex, performers, genderbendersand androgynes

[Allison Chaynes]

Thanks for sharing and clarifying it for us. Sounds like it was a fascinating lecture, I have seen a few TV shows she has been interviewed for.

[Lana Mae]

Sounds great! Getting accurate info out there is very important for better social relations! Hugs Lana Mae

[barbara gordon]

Still its one person's idea mixed in with everyone else ideas . but i did note that the word "crossdresser is listed second on the list .

Also I was able to find that same image and a few other related images in a g--gle search . We are at a great time right now with the topic of new gender norms opening up all over the place after so much secrecy .

[jennifer0918]

I like Dr.Bowers, and wow this is good information and I need to do some soul searching and really understand myself and where the pink fog is taking me.

- - - Updated - - -

If you Google Dr.Bowers transgender umbrella and search images it comes up.

[Wen4cd]

Another fine arrangement of labels. People never tire of arranging and rearranging gender labels, do they? Putting this category in subordination to that category, moving this box of people inside this other group of people, until, if you buy into it, you are tempted to define yourself by whatever identifiers you are shown.

Marci Bowers has a lot of strikes against her for being able to tell me which way to arrange identity labels. She's at least three of the least credible categories according to my own personal umbrella infographic:

274791

[BettyMorgan]

Another good site is the Gender Book (http://www.thegenderbook.com/the-booklet/4561649703). Scroll to the bottom and click the umbrella image.


http://www.thegenderbook.com/the-booklet/4561649703

[Nefer]

Another fine arrangement of labels...

Your reasons for finding the most qualified sources non-credible is absurd.

[Tracii G]

I have heard her speak a few times and really enjoyed listening to her.

[barbara gordon]

Thanks for the replies ... as for wen and your umbrella diagram- yup every persons perspective is always biased ... mine included . Maybe mine especially . I saw this person give an excellent and very sympathetic lecture.. i was there in a room with professionals of the highest degrees and respect. In a mix of social and medical professions. Dr bowers was funny and informative. The lecture was free. There were presidents of major orginazations in the room. Dr bowers told of her extensive charity work that she has performed around the world using her own funds ... she is a transgender person who has a personal stake in her work ... i personally was lucky to be there and to hear this ... i went out again and did something that i would not have had the courage to do only a few short years ago ... i also qualified the diagram and the message as being only one persons perspective among many... this is all true ... we each have our own perspective and our own bias on every topic ... but its good to share view points so that we can reach goals together.

Its a relief for me to be able to go out into the public and not be harrassed and not arrested because i am a "man in a dress". Dr bowers is a hero to me because she is one of many gender pioneers that helped pave the road that i can so easily take.

[Pat]

Marci Bowers has a lot of strikes against her for being able to tell me which way to arrange identity labels. She's at least three of the least credible categories according to my own personal umbrella infographic

So those are the people you don't trust. Who do you trust?

[Wen4cd]

Barbara,

It's a false sense of relief to stop thinking and to let your superiors do the thinking for you. Folks like Bowers didn't 'pave a road for you to easily take,' they built an attractive-looking corral and herded you into it by exacerbating and exploiting your own vulnerability and desire. That 'easy road' she paves ultimately leads to a place of her choosing - not yours, as do all the easy roads.

Pat, trust is a funny thing.

If I invite into my home a guy who sells water softeners to do a 'free water quality test' I trust that he will find, 99 times out of 100, that something is wrong with my water and will try to sell me a solution.

If I take my ornery kid to a doctor and I know this doctor gets a kickback from the pharma rep for every prescription of ritalin or some SSRI he puts a kid on, I trust that he will find something wrong with my kid and write a prescription.

If I am accosted by a scientologist on the street who offers me a free personality test, I trust that the test will show a personality flaw that only scientology can fix.

I trust that if the guy at the sales counter at any retail store offers me an extra 10% off today's purchase if I sign up to the mailing list and give him my email address, that I am going to receive unwanted advertising spam for the rest of my life.

Likewise, I trust that if I go to some gender lecture conference, such as Keystone, (which is funded by a consortium of plastic surgery firms,) I will 'learn' information and education that is designed to place me into a specific marketing demographic, and keep me there. I trust that all slideshows and visual aids are marketing tools to this end.

But so far as a definitive authority on gender? There isn't one. That's exactly why it's such an exploitable market.

Do you really trust Marci Bowers' hokey ad copy about "helping people find confidence in their anatomy?"

I don't want to guess at today's figures, but it's obvious that Transgenderism Inc. is a huge burgeoning industry with billions at stake. It's not your friend or ally. It doesn't care about you.

[~Joanne~]

I have to agree with Wendy on pretty much everything she said above, especially the part about a definitive authority on gender and there not being one. This is why i have always felt that seeing a psychiatrist for therapy, especially on situations of being CD or whatever label it is you slapped on yourself is a complete joke. They don't know much about it period and all they do is take wild guesses and play on someone's emotions and their bank account at the same time plus get their kick backs from big pharma as much as possible. JMO

[Jenny22]

To me, "Trans" labels are similar to "political" labels in that there's a personal fit somewhere, whatever the name. Wen4CD's points are excellent, and she's right in her feeling as she does. But, whenever any group believes anything, a standard bearer(s) will emerge for that belief. As a M2F transsexual M.D., she has experienced the full monte of such a change and what it was like before her GRS. We "trans" folks do exist, and even with labeling, she's just trying to open the eyes of others who may need same and to try to educate them that we are "out there" and need understanding. I'm thankful she's doing that for us. JMO

[Pat]

Pat, trust is a funny thing.

Apparently so, since again you provide a detailed list of people you don't trust but nobody that you do. You describe a cold, dark, cynical world. I'm sorry you have to live there.

[mykell]

i have just returned from the keystone conference that was held in Harrisburg. i heard speakers that i thought would be boring with the topics they were talking about, they were indeed very interesting, poorly timed but interesting none the less....i also had the privilege to sit with some medical and law professionals at one of the dinner outings....the conversations were varied between the girls at the table and the professional folks, they have history and familiarity with each other and tended to keep to themselves but during lapses of conversation between ourselves i would listen to some of theyre topics.....the one that most struck me was theyre validation of the trans folks that were now becoming the experts of our existence and changing the dynamics of the topics, now the opinions and expert advice is coming more and more from those who are living the life themselves instead of those who had no real way to understand or explain it from a lived existence.....we were just taking theyre word for it, now we are seeing valid references from those that walk the walk.

now at my table were two doctors, one presented as male and one presented as female, now this is an assumption on my part which was a topic of one of the speakers after one of the luncheons....my assumption was the female was MtF slightly by height.....but some of the topics talked about seemed to have a male perspective while she talked to the other doctor about personal protection and activities associated with them.

so for me whether info from someone on this sight, a professional, a friend or associate or something you found on the interweb.....weigh where it came from, what makes sense to you, try to check the facts and take from it what will work for your personal reasons.

life is not scripted, sometimes its a gamble and you lose, sometimes your just too darn lucky but you can never predict the results, just prepare by and better the odds by gathering all the possible information out there to help you find a favorable and manageable path to your desired direction in life,

or as a wise man once said....life is like a box of chocolates....you never know what your gonna get....

[barbara gordon]

I am kinda glad that my post has generated such a lively and friendly series of responses!
As i mentioned , the view of dr bowers is really just one viewpoint among many . What does give her extra credit in my view is that she identifies as transgender. And tells stories of her own good and bad experience. As far as "the paved easy road" , well maybe i am optimistic on that . I have been dressing for almost (hic')50 years. I do remember not even being able to bring it up in any conversation. If its a road that i have been on , i remember when it was a dirt road with lots more potholes . A very bumpy road . It really is a lot better these days. I definately do not atribute that to one person. It is taking a lot of folks to make things better.

For me the ideas expressed in the diagram are pretty close to an idea that i already developed on my own. My excitement was finding that someone else has a similar idea. Thats why i put it into the post... This was a good experience for me. So it will be pretty difficult for anyone to spoil it .

[Tracii G]

While Dr Bowers was interesting I didn't always agree with her. I did feel kind of slighted a few times.
She was shall I say not too friendly to the gay segment of the audience she would kind pass off the questions.Kind of like politicians do.
I have a few TG friends that think the sun rises and sets with what she says but I don't.
Call me cynical I guess but TG's seem to follow certain people with a cult like zeal.
Not me I think for myself.

[Wen4cd]

Apparently so, since again you provide a detailed list of people you don't trust but nobody that you do. You describe a cold, dark, cynical world. I'm sorry you have to live there.


Damn, Pat. Funny how your only contribution to this topic is to attack me twice.

Who I "trust" is not your business, nor is it relevant to who is or is not a defining authority on these TG labels. I politely ignored your personal jab the first time and formed a thought-out response, and you just double down and repeat the same 2-bit ad hom attack?

Is this still what they teach you do do in "effective shutting-down of discussion 101?" If so you need to get your money back. This kind of chicanery is exactly why you have a huge backlash of retaliatory legislation rolling over you like a sandstorm, and why your bills are crashing and burning, like, everywhere.

Funny, but not surprising. It leads me to this: The constantly adversarial way the tg movement currently engages society, and especially anyone it sees as critical, is suicidally self defeating.

The irony here is that 99.9% of people don't hate the transgendered, or even care in the slightest, but everyone hates a snake. You are following sacred cows like Bowers right into the slaughterhouse and impaling yourselves on your own poisoned pens, and doing your best to drag us all in along with you. It was the existence of the internet in the last 25 years that has broken down barriers and allowed more freedom, not these loudmouthed opportunistic plastic surgeons, journalists, and phony quasi-civil rights pretenders.

Don't blow it now. Maybe you need to go back to your cabal and deliver the message that it's time for "Cultural War: The RPG" to end, and find a new way to coexist.

Because it's not really me who lives in a dark, cynical, cold fantasy world, is it Pat?

[AllieSF]

Sorry Wen, I do not believe that Pat was doing what you describe. It is you who have come to this thread to post your opinion in such a hard and demeaning to others way. Why? My read of your first and then second post was similar to Pat's in that they sounded very cynical and maybe even angry. Your opinion is valid, as is everyone else's. However, the tone of your post sounds like a bad hair day, or maybe in my 10 years here, I never realized that is how you write.

If you have personal bad experiences with any of this, please share. Marci Bowers is a respected surgeon who understands and works with those who desire to physically transition. She is respected in her field, makes a lot of money from her work and works with trans organizations to get the word out. Is part of that advertising/marketing? Yes, and why not. She also is there to answer questions and help others understand. She provides others with her opinion and experience and has the qualified background to do so. There is nothing wrong with it, just as there is nothing wrong with having another opinion, maybe like yours.

The way you have presented your opinion though is like talking down to everyone else who does not share that same thought. Why is that? Can you please explain in a civil tone why you feel so strongly about that. We might learn something important by taking the time to listen to your side, if presented in a decent way.

[Vickie_CDTV]

What, no electrologists in there? I am disappointed I was excluded.

[Pat]

Damn, Pat. Funny how your only contribution to this topic is to attack me twice.

I'm sorry you think that's what I was doing. I was actually trying to find out what sources you did trust since you dismissed so many as "compromised." I think I had read other posts you made over time and thought you'd have a rational answer. I honestly didn't expect what I got or I'd never have asked in the first place. Again, sorry to have upset you.

[Rogina B]

Not me I think for myself.

"You have to row your own boat in this life"

[Wen4cd]

In case anyone still reading this would like a great example of how these people park themselves among you and steer and control your discussion and thought, just look at how the discussion of Bowers' credibility has suddenly steered itself to the topic of me and my 'tone.'


the tone of your post sounds like a bad hair day, or maybe in my 10 years here, I never realized that is how you write.


Can you please explain in a civil tone why you feel so strongly about that...


...thought you'd have a rational answer....


....sorry to have upset you....

Does this seem odd? Does this seem like killing the messenger? It is.

If anyone still doesn't see why the topic has moved squarely onto me and my "irrational tone," here's why:

From Wikipedia:
"Tone policing (or tone trolling or tone argument or tone fallacy) is an antidebate appeal based on genetic fallacy, which attempts to detract from the validity of a statement by attacking the tone rather than the message."

and here's another:

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

While it is not ad hominem to point out clear professional conflicts of interest in someone like Bowers, whose credibility is the question, it is definitely ad hominem to start beating on me for doing the questioning. Unlike Marci, I have nothing whatsoever to gain or lose, so attacking my character is just a cheap shot at my points.

What did I just say about snakes? In my very last post I addressed the topic of these antidebate 'tactics' and how they only serve to make more and more people resent you, and then I once again immediately get punched in the face with them, for the crime of heresy against the cult leader.

I criticize the narrative, therefore I am upset and irrational, thus invalid, and the narrative stands.
See how that works?

I don't see how anyone outside of Bowers' personal fan club sees her as anything but a hack plastic surgeon and carnival con artist who works with desire, envy, deliberate misinformation and ownership of terminology to create a manufactured worldview of synthetic consensus - for the sole purpose of convincing the average crossdresser to feel that life can somehow only improve by purchasing the services of her industry, or by following the path of her life.

She is in the cold, callous business (and personal mission) of creating as many transsexuals out of as many CD's as she can by manipulating consensus, manipulating the definitions of what CD, TG, and TS are, propagating deliberate misinformation, and dangling carrots of false hope. Those who help her are just as culpable, especially those who spread her marketing info at places like this forum where CD's come as a first stop for answers and search for meaning about what they like to do.

Every 'transgender' person who has ever killed themselves in the last 20 years or so has had the gun put in their hand by Marcy Bowers and her ilk and essentially been told "it's my way or the highway, sugar." It's murder.

She's a useless predator, and a figurehead of a useless predatory industry. Nothing more. People may praise her because she pretends to represent them and defend them against 'ignorant haters', when she's only defending her potential income stream and trying to swell her ranks. If people find other ways to integrate their gender, she can't profit. Worse still, her own life choice comes into question if there are valid alternatives.

Frankly I tire of my kind being treated as her kind's fresh meat. I'm tired of watching family after family in the CD community implode, and life after life be destroyed because thousands of people, both clueless and well-meaning, (and those not so well meaning,) continue to propagate her marketing pipedream as the healthy, proper, and medically-consensus approved way of dealing with your desires. I'm tired of coming to this forum and seeing her brand of shit spread around like its authoritative truth.

And I'm really, really tired of those who deliberately spread it because they think they are fighting in some kind of war.

Now that's really all I have to say on her. If you still want to reach out and have a big drink from the cup she offers, you deserve what you get. I will shed my tears for your family, but not for you anymore.

[AllieSF]

So Wen, you do know that this site is open to all trans people, and I am using the umbrella term as used by this site, which has all of us, pantie wearers to full CD dressers to to moving down the path of life, meaning in between and then transsexuals transitioning, transitioned, or not. Marci Bowers messages are not directed toward basic CD's, but to those who feel the need to transition into full time (24/7) living working and being the women or man that they are. She does not need to recruit anyone since she already has a 2-3 backlog of scheduled procedures, as most qualified and experienced surgeons in this area are. We actually need more like them to shorten the wait times. Where does a person who wants to transition and may be considering some physical corrections to their opposite gender body in order to be and feel as a more congruent self get information? What do you recommend? Are you even in favor of someone transitioning and having medical procedures? Do you believe that someone can have a physical body and assigned gender that does not coincide with what that person believes that they are? I ask these questions to try to understand your hard stance and unsubstantiated claims that Dr. Bowers and her kind are the cause of "every" transgender suicide for the last 20 years. Prove it.

Getting people and society to be more tolerating and accepting of all of us and providing the proper legal protections of our rights and professionals from therapists, to surgeons to help us have allowed so many trans people to be themselves and avoid reaching the point of reaching for that weapon or other means to take their own life. They save people, not kill them. So, I call your blame on Dr. Bowers and others BS. What is your recommended solution? Please tell us why you feel so strongly on this and where it has hurt you or someone you know? You have made a lot of serious accusations with little or no backup. If you want to debate, let's do that. But let's not try to outshout each other. Why not ask why I and others think the way we do and answer my questions why you act the way you do?

Issues that CD families have are not related to Marcie Bowers and other similar medical practitioners. They have imploding families because being any kind of trans is disruptive to the third parties involved, family and friends, traditional thinking many times comes off as a NIMBY response to life, someone else can be like that, but not here.

[Lauri K]

I encourage everyone to not base their opinion of Marci on single umbrella slide from a ppt. presentation that has been taken way out of context and even rewritten as if this is some sort of comedy hour we live each day.

Why this is in the CD forum is another matter, I have yet to know a CD who wanted GRS and could pass the standards of care to get GRS.............

This demeaning rant about Bowers is just beyond comprehension

This woman has done so much in career I cannot even begin to write it all here.

She is one of the few surgeons in the world that can successfully perform many difficult procedures and even can perform clitoral restoration on those who were victims of (FGM) female genital mutilation.

So saddening to see this hatred towards one of our biggest allies.

I have retyped my reply to this thread to stay out of jail since I am on parole, but let it be known I am personally appalled to read some of the negative comments on here.

No offense but just saying we look like hypocrites here on this thread

[Wen4cd]

No you all are right. Looking at what I have said in this thread I see I have been condescending and angry. My statements do appear overly critical, even to me.

The problem is that I feel they are true, even after much scrutiny. I can't deny my beliefs, though I can clearly see them as useless and offensive to anyone here.

I think in the final analysis, I just have no place here. I have always been heretical and a devil's advocate, and maybe this is just because I am a jackass.

I had composed a response for the last couple of days that summarizes my thoughts on what gender is, and what it is not, and what transgender is and is not, and outlining the process by which the bad memes we throw around within the community for our own benefit cause grave harm, but I am not going to post it, as it is many thousands of words and also because I feel it will ultimately disrespect the dead.

[AllieSF]

Wen, Thanks for this response. You have been here longer than I have by a few years, and we both have seen or read posts by people that are extremely angry about something and then they take it out or let off steam in someone's thread where they lay it on real deep. Not many like you come back to admit that they may have been wrong i n their approach.That to me is a very positive sign. Just so you understand, some of us regular posters here do not mind that you have a very different opinion than they and I di. But to get our attention regarding a good discussion, aggression does not work most times. Regarding Marcie Bowers, I just repeat what I have read here and what I have personally heard from her patients. So, besides that background info, I am no expert on her. Your view was so different from what I have heard, I really would have liked to understand what was driving your opinion. One reason is to maybe fill in some of my knowledge that may be factually contrary to what I have learned so far. The other is to see if you were just blowing smoke or actually had a valid reason.

Now that being said, you and me and everyone else who are truthful have a place here. So, stick around. Also, I recommend that you try to understand your presentation style in thi9s thread and the why for it. That may help you in the long run, making you a better person for yourself and others. Again thanks for your post.

[Swottie]

In a way, like Wen, my gut dislikes these doctors, psychologists, academics putting labels on people, boxes, pigeon holes. Why do we have to be labeled, and pigeon holed? Unfortunately, that's how human beings function, we stereotype people, objects, events every moment of every day, like it or not. We all make snap judgements based on experiences with similar people, objects and events, our brain are simply not fast enough to process the vast amount of information bombarding us every moment.

In a way, the academics putting labels to people is a good thing, whilst no single one of us will fit perfectly into any one of those labels, it is useful as a starting point for someone to begin to understand the topic. For myself, when I first joined the forum, I was very confused and all the names and labels people used, and something like this infographic would have been useful to me.

So people guys and gals, stop the hate, we're all different, accept each other for goodness sake. (I don't apologise if anyone thinks by asking for acceptance is being discriminatory either, and it's not funny).