I met a woman while dancing, please GG too, sorry a long post....

[faltenrock]

Some strange and unusual things happened to me in the last four weeks. I wrote about it in another threat, but I think it’s better to be discussed in this section, as I feel great help and support from this forum to understand it better and to get answers and perhaps different views, also from GG.

This is a very long post, no one has to read it, but it has influenced and confused me a lot in the last weeks.
Let me start where all happened, it actually was in Holland where I spend a lot of time dressed, I feel save around there and no one knows me as a man.
On Friday the 7th of April, I went to a club where I use to go since 6-7 years. That was actually my first Friday night there, usually I go on Saturdays when the attached dance club is open. This night it was the smaller café/bar/lounge with a small dancing floor.

I talked to a few people for about an hour or more when I started dancing. My outfit was exactly the one in the picture, taken at McDonalds. A black dotted chiffon dress with black heels, black hose and the beige blazer jacket.


When dancing, after some time I realized that a younger woman who was sitting at by one of the three tables was looking at me, right into my eyes. That look hit me directly.
I went to her table, where she was sitting with a friend (around 40 + years old) and asked her why she was looking at me, that was about midnight.
She stood up and gave me a chair to sit down and poured real champagne into a glass.

Not long after that she took my hands and went to the dance floor with me and we danced. During that she hugged me, kissed me and touched me almost everywhere.
Anyway, we talked and after an hour I wanted to leave to go to my favourite club in the next city. I said good night and wished her fun that night. She stopped me and asked me to stay another hour or two because she wanted to come with me to that other club which she visited only once before.
Around 4 AM we got into the second club and it just continued, she touched me nice and warmly, gave me friendly kisses, held my hands and looked at me like no other person ever looked at me, probably not even my wonderful wife.

After some time, I took her to the dance floor where she didn’t feel comfortable. There were to younger guys sitting at our table. She started talking to one of them, not long after that she started flirting and kissing that man heavily. At this moment it didn’t bother me at all, I didn’t know her yet and I didn’t feel any attachment to her. I started to talk to some people in the club who I’ve known for some time.
At about 6 AM, she was still kissing with the young man. I went to her table and ask if she wanted to get a lift home or to stay there, because I wanted to leave to go to sleep.
She and the man came with me and we went to my car where she said good buy to the man, who happened to want more from her.

Driving to her house took about 20 minutes and she asked me where I would stay for the night. I told her that I’m used to sleep in my large station wagon, as I usually do that on my business trips. I always have my sleeping bag, pillow and mattress with me - to save money.
She couldn’t really understand why I want to stay in my car and started looking for a cheap hotel and also offered to pay half of it for my room to be in a save place.
I said no, it won’t be a problem because I’ve slept in my car hundreds of times in the past with no issue.
Once we got closer to her house she started crying and I saw her tears and her voice changed.
That went on for at least 10 minutes in front of her house. I knew she had a boyfriend since 17 years, when she was 16 or 17 ears of age. She also said, she will explain to him and doesn’t care about a fight with him.
She actually wanted me to come up and sleep in the guest room, as I was dressed as a woman.
I felt very bad about that and said no, I didn’t want to feel embarrassed when we get up in the morning and her boyfriend would see me as Doreen. That was a totally new situation and I never expected something to happen like that.
My new friend got out of my car, opened my door while crying and ask to get out.
To end this stupid situation, I finally got out and followed her to the house.

She directed me to the guest room, made the bed and came back after a few minutes to say good night. She hugged me for minutes.
The next morning around noon, I did not have a minute of sleep, she came into my room hugged me and touched me again in my face, gave me a kiss. That’s when I started to get confused.
I tried to make it short and left after a quick coffee and breakfast that her boyfriend had prepared for us. He’s actually about 11 years older than her. We wanted to go dancing again that Saturday night.

Later in the afternoon she called me and asked how I felt and that she had a terrible headache and couldn’t come that night.

The week following I got very confused emotionally, my wife and my son realized that I was different and nervous. After a few days I received a few SMS from her saying that she’s been thinking of me very often. She went to a Spanish Island Mallorca for a short trip with her best male friend who is gay.
The day after she got back, she called me at home in the evening, when I was sitting next to my wife. That was unexpected, I told my wife it’s a client and I went to my office. We talked for more than 20 minutes and she was very curious to learn more about me and asked if I was gay, or married, if I had children and all that. She talked about visiting me in Hamburg.
The next day she sent me an e-mail with pictures from her trip with her friend from Mallorca Island and I’ve sent pictures of me as a male, and as Doreen, pictures from different outings in public.
She said in the e-mail that she would like to meet me as a man next time to see my true side as well. I told her that I’m not gay, and that I’m married with kids and all that, also that I love my tolerant wife very much.
After a few more SMS from both sides, I tried to get distance to her and deleted her phone number and my new e-mail address. I had opened that new address to communicate with her. I felt that this friendship was going the wrong way for me and that she was getting to close to me, my life and my heart. I wrote to her saying exactly that.

On Sunday April 30th, 10 days ago, she sent me an SMS and asked if she could call me. I said yes and we talked for about 40 minutes, me sitting in my car in front of my house. That already felt like betraying my wife.
Unfortunately, I told her that I was planning to go to the club again last weekend, May 5th
She asked me to meet and if we could go for dinner to talk about all this. I agreed and we set a time for dinner. After that phone call I didn’t hear from her after having sent two SMS saying that we could meet a little earlier for dinner. In that phone call, she also mentioned that a few strange things happened to her in 2015. She got pregnant and lost the baby seven weeks in pregnancy. She also said that I reminded her much of a person like me, another CD or eventually TS, she didn’t say more to that.

Last week, on Friday May 5th, I was on a business trip not too far from her city. While I was delivering some products to a client she called me up at 6 PM but I couldn’t pick up the call that moment. She left a voice message saying that she felt bad after work, had a headache and would like to meet another time and if I was still planning to come. I kind of knew that this was going to happen. I’ve sent her an SMS saying that I will be there at about 7:15 PM.

The two weeks before, I had some hard time thinking of her and what exactly had happened to me and what kind of feelings I had for what reason. I felt having been manipulated by her emotionally. I felt that she had a strong need for attention, controlling men and perhaps love.
I also thought that she misused me and played with me, such as some people like to do.

I started writing a long letter, analysing the situation and her character and that she played with me and that she was probably only interested for my dressing. I said it was disrespectful to me and more so to her boyfriend when she kissed that man in the club. I took her to that club to have fun together. At the time it didn’t bother me at all, but the weeks following it did.

When I came to her house, I sent her two SMS that I’m in my car near her house and if she is strong enough to talk, I would expect her to come to my car to talk.
After 15 minutes she came, I could swear she wouldn’t come.
She came to me and hugged me intensively. As she asked me in the earlier phone call the Sunday before, I came as the man I am, in jeans and my Timberlands.

We went up to her flat where her boyfriend was sitting on the sofa, he said, ‘you really look different than last time’..

We started talking and he left the house for 15 min. It was the same eye contact and warm feeling for both of us as four weeks before when we she met me as a woman. We hugged and touched each other.
She gave me a glass of white wine and opened a bottle of champagne which we finished until 11 PM. Then we took off to go to the club which is only 5 minutes away from her house.

That night we’ve had a lot of fun dancing and talking together, she asked w few of her female friends to join. We stayed until 4 AM and went back home.
Again, she made my bed and came back to say good night which took a few minutes of hugging. Same the next morning, she came with a glass of juice for me and was sitting very ear me.

After more talking and a breakfast that her boyfriend made, I left for the day (Saturday) may 6th.
I spent the day dressed up as Doreen and went to another city, see picture what I wore that day with sunshine and comfortable weather.
Later in the evening I wanted to go to the club again dressed, see below link to my outfit in the pictures threat section.
I knew that her friends would go there again and that they would see me as a woman.
However, just when I wanted to leave my car at 10:20 PM, I received two SMS from the woman. She had read my letters and said she had difficulties being around me because she can’t accept Doreen and it’s not my fault. She mentioned her weird experiences from 2015 and that she could find herself in a lot of what I wrote in my letter. I must admit I was very open and probably offended her too unfair. She excused for giving me the wrong impression when she played with the man four weeks ago and that she would only get intimate with her boyfriend. She also said that I was blessed having a family with kids and that she respected my wife a lot. It took me some time to respond with another SMS.
I told her that I felt used by her for her own satisfaction and that she probably has an issue with transgender people and TS and that this actually was her interest in me. I also said that her statement was a strange contradiction to hat we experienced together in two nights. I said she has an identity problem, she had mentioned that herself Friday night, and she should try to get clear about herself without playing with other people. She also seems to be attracted to women.We had as much fun during the nights when I was Doreen and that last Friday when I was the man.
I also said that I could never meet her again as Doreen and if she can’t accept me as the complete person that I am, I could not make friendship with her.

In another SMS I said that I will not interfere with her life, going to that club and that I don’t want to visit the club again.
Well, I went to the club and felt completely out of place and very uncomfortable being dressed. It felt like everyone was starring at me and seeing the guy who they’ve seen the night before with her. Everything seemed wrong. I saw her friends and said hello, they didn’t recognise me as the man from the other night. One woman said you look nice, but I couldn’t start a conversation with them, my feelings were so mixed up.

I decided to leave early and not visit the other club in the next city, instead I started driving back home (180 miles). This was not the night for me as Doreen.

The next evening, it was past Sunday, I opened up to my wife and told her everything, including having stayed overnight twice at her house. She was understanding, didn’t cry and was happy that I told her.
In the middle of the night I got an SMS, I forgot to switch off my phone. My wife and I couldn’t sleep and I didn’t look up the SMS. We both thought it was her.
Fortunately it was some idiot who was asking a question on ebay.

The next morning, Monday, my wife was unhappy and unfriendly because she believed I had fallen in love with her and that it was her sending the SMS. I found out who it was later that morning (ebay).

Later Monday morning, I got the last SMS from the woman. She said: “Please leave me alone, I’m mixed up and don’t behave like that. And yes I’ve taken home even TS. She said again that I was blessed with a family that she does not have…”

Now today.
This is where I am today as I write this post.
I still think of her, but now I think I might have been a little too open and unfair to her.
I’m glad this is over, because it touched me too much emotionally. I think it will be difficult to have a GG friend to share crossdressing that way.
I also came to the conclusion that I should not avoid going to the club again not to meet her. It’s my life and it’s important to me to feel good about myself and to regain my strength and comfort to go out as Doreen wherever and whenever I want this to be.
I did learn a lot through this.
I've never been interested in another GG when out as a woman or man. It felt like I've met a soul mate, that perhaps only happened in my mind.
The woman seemed to give what my wonderful relationship seemed to lack, also being accepted fully as a woman for the moment.
Again, I’m sorry for this long post. I hope many people will read it and that some GG will also respond to what I had to say.


I wore that red skirt and the lace black top Saturday.

The link to my post in the picture section:
https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?249755-Went-out-again-for-dancing-and-me-a-women-strange-things-happened276853

[Vickie_CDTV]

This whole thing is full of danger signs. As flattering as it would be for a GG to react that way to me dressed (and saying it would be a miracle is not an understatement), her behavior from the beginning to the end was nutty (why on earth would she invite you back to her place with her boyfriend there?? Imagine if he flipped out and turned on you!) Good thing you cut off contact with her. Not to mention your wife would not be happy if she found out about her.

[ReineD]

How much do you value your wife and child?

If you do, then I would suggest not seeking a relationship with this new person. Your wife was obviously upset at the prospect and you need to honor this.

As to whether you should return to the same club or not, surely there are lots of clubs in the Netherlands? Would it be too difficult to stay away from where she might be for the next few months?

[faltenrock]

How much do you value your wife and child?

If you do, then I would suggest not seeking a relationship with this new person. Your wife was obviously upset at the prospect and you need to honor this.

As to whether you should return to the same club or not, surely there are lots of clubs in the Netherlands? Would it be too difficult to stay away from where she might be for the next few months?

You're right Reine. I should not go there again. and there are other places to go.
I do value my wife and two children, both boys and 21 and 18, one moved out recently.
My wife has trouble with me being CD, as this is true for most couples. The past issue was that she didn't want to hear anything about my outings but I wanted to communicate my experiences to my wife.
She is now open to hear from me, and this incident was the first ever of this kind. I've never looked for anyone when out, it#s enough for me to be on my own, I don't seek other CD to go for dancing or whatever.

I know that I was weak that day and that and it was something I wanted to tell my wife after the first day, but couldn't at that time. We had dinner Monday night and talked more about it. I love her very much and I was foolish having let this woman gain any kind of control over me.

Yes, I very much honor my wife, her understanding, her tolerance and big love. I do know that this is a rare gift, not only in this particular life situation with a CD who goes into public. The kind of our relationship is a gift for any partnership. I never wanted to upset her.
We've been a couple for very many years and had difficult times, not only for being a CD.
As this is true for probably any couple who has known each other for that long, it is sometimes difficult to keep the partnership fresh, refreshing and exciting at all times.

- - - Updated - - -


This whole thing is full of danger signs. As flattering as it would be for a GG to react that way to me dressed (and saying it would be a miracle is not an understatement), her behavior from the beginning to the end was nutty (why on earth would she invite you back to her place with her boyfriend there?? Imagine if he flipped out and turned on you!) Good thing you cut off contact with her. Not to mention your wife would not be happy if she found out about her.

Vickie, you're right too. That was in my mind when she asked me to come up and stay with them. The fact is, it could have developed into a dangerous situation.
Fortunately, her partner was cool about it. Now, I think he has got used to this over years, having strangers in his home, taken in by his girlfriend. He might seem to have a problem with drugs though. He went out twice that last Friday evening to smoke something outside. I can't imagine what he must feel. He might know that his partner does get close to strangers and kiss them and kiss women too. This relationship can actually not be a healthy one, even though she tried to show her love for him when I was present.
And yes, I should be glad this is over and I should not see her again. I'm clear about it now, but this woman has a large potential to destroy long lasting partnerships and a marriage.

I wrote this long post to receive your thoughts from a perspective, that I couldn't have an I have been influenced and not objective about this.
Thanks you all for responding, this is the best forum of its kind.

[Kate Simmons]

Sounds like a lot more than friendship and potentially pretty intense Hon. I don't know that I would want to jeopardize my relationship with my partner and family by pursuing something like this. Just my opinion. :)

[Tracii G]

If you honored your wife you wouldn't be doing all this.
There must be some reason you seek other women so I'm not going to ask.
I think you stated it wasn't sexual but a deep emotional contact.
Ok that leads up to sex does it not ?
Why on earth would you go home with a woman you don't know (obviously a tart) knowing her dope smoking BF is there?
Does this not sound strange to you?
Eventually you are going to go home with the wrong woman with a husband/BF and become a statistic.

[Jaylyn]

I'm sorry but if you are a married man to a wonderful wife with two children, even though they are older you need to think about what you did. It's fine going out dressed and your wife trusted you. In my opinion you betrayed her trust somewhat by even dancing with another lady. I'm not out dressed, but in Texas we always ask our wives if another lady wants a dance with us. Same thing if another gentleman wants to dance with your wife.
I know t is flattering when another woman asks my wife if she could have a dance with me at a club. We dance out in the open in view of the others spouses. I feel you should have had some guts if you really love your wife and told the woman that you are married and not seek those feelings of letting another one touch you or feel around. You violated your wife's trust in yourself when you did that. My suggestion is keep away from that lady and especially going home with her. Tracie is 100% right you might end up being a statistic of an enraged boyfriend, especially one that is smoking the wacky Tobacco. Always ask yourself before you act on something like this would you do this if your wife was there with you? The lady sounds like trouble waiting t happen. These are just my opinions every one has to live their life as they see fit.

[Laura912]

There appear to be two very clear choices. Continue the contact and pay a price of emotional, physical and financial expense or sever all contact absolutely cold turkey meaning no good bye, no apoligies, no nothing. It is a simple if-then situation. If you feel about your family the way you state, then stop the contact.

[faltenrock]

If you honored your wife you wouldn't be doing all this.
There must be some reason you seek other women so I'm not going to ask.
I think you stated it wasn't sexual but a deep emotional contact.
Ok that leads up to sex does it not ?
Why on earth would you go home with a woman you don't know (obviously a tart) knowing her dope smoking BF is there?
Does this not sound strange to you?
Eventually you are going to go home with the wrong woman with a husband/BF and become a statistic.

Tracii, you got some of this wrong. I only learned that the guy is smoking something the second time and late. I didn't know anything about this man.
Second, I'm not seeking woman at all - this happened and I don't feel it was right to do.
Dancing with a woman for itself, when dressed or not dressed is not anything wrong, in my very own opinion.
Being touched as she did to me was wrong, yes I should have stopped it as soon as she did.
When I'm out dancing, naturally I meet people to interact with and to talk to, there is nothing wrong with that. I'm not an isolated person, communication and interacting with people that I don't know is something normal for me.

My main mistake was not to leave fast as she stood besides my car crying the first night in April, I must blame myself for that. I didn't want to be cold and we at this point had a fun night, even given all the details that I mentioned

- - - Updated - - -


There appear to be two very clear choices. Continue the contact and pay a price of emotional, physical and financial expense or sever all contact absolutely cold turkey meaning no good bye, no apoligies, no nothing. It is a simple if-then situation. If you feel about your family the way you state, then stop the contact.

Laura, you're absolutely right, and the last choice was clearly my choice when I gave her my letter last Saturday. I told her not to use people and that we will never see again.
No more good-bye, no apologies - nothing. This is what I have chosen and it was my own choice.
There won't be any more contact, and it's nothing I would desire.

My point here was to tell that story, because I think it could happen to many people here. Some of those people here are not in any relationship, some have heavy problems in their marriage and so on.
As a human being, we are moved if someone gives us a signal of full acceptance.
Especially for those who are in a partnership, where the GG is not accepting at all. I think many CD would like to share their desire of dressing with the partner. Unfortuantely that is difficult for most woman or impossible.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm sorry but if you are a married man to a wonderful wife with two children, even though they are older you need to think about what you did. It's fine going out dressed and your wife trusted you. In my opinion you betrayed her trust somewhat by even dancing with another lady. I'm not out dressed, but in Texas we always ask our wives if another lady wants a dance with us. Same thing if another gentleman wants to dance with your wife.
I know t is flattering when another woman asks my wife if she could have a dance with me at a club. We dance out in the open in view of the others spouses. I feel you should have had some guts if you really love your wife and told the woman that you are married and not seek those feelings of letting another one touch you or feel around. You violated your wife's trust in yourself when you did that. My suggestion is keep away from that lady and especially going home with her. Tracie is 100% right you might end up being a statistic of an enraged boyfriend, especially one that is smoking the wacky Tobacco. Always ask yourself before you act on something like this would you do this if your wife was there with you? The lady sounds like trouble waiting t happen. These are just my opinions every one has to live their life as they see fit.

Jaylyn, I don't agree with most of what you have to say. I'm not religious and don't carry that weight that some people do. Dancing with another woman is totally normal in the society in which I live.
I do agree on what you said about telling her right away that I'm married. She assumed I'm gay I believe.
I made a big mistake and I told my wife in all detail because I knew I made that mistake.

If you drive drunk or not and hit or kill someone, you can't change that afterwards.
It seems to be reading some responses, that most are perfect people here, with not mistakes, not doing anything wrong.

I think we're all human beings, and things can happen. It's only important to learn from what we do, have done or haven't done. I sure learned my lesson and my wife understands what happened. She knows me well and she knows my personal history in life, something no one here knows.

- - - Updated - - -


If you honored your wife you wouldn't be doing all this.
There must be some reason you seek other women so I'm not going to ask.
I think you stated it wasn't sexual but a deep emotional contact.
Ok that leads up to sex does it not ?
Why on earth would you go home with a woman you don't know (obviously a tart) knowing her dope smoking BF is there?
Does this not sound strange to you?
Eventually you are going to go home with the wrong woman with a husband/BF and become a statistic.

Your experience in life is probably very different from mine. In my life I do have and had female friends who were very close to me, with no intimacy or any of that involved. My first girlfriend is American and lives there. I met her a few times in the last 9 years. my wife has met her a few times too. That love relationship is very very long ago.
We love each other for who we are, a pure friendship with a long history.
In my life, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Kelly DeWinter]

It amazes me sometimes the length that some people go to sabotage their own relationships.

For most married people going to a bar or club alone and dancing and drinking with others is not the way to stay married. You have proven that this too is something that you should not do as well since as you said "Not long after that she took my hands and went to the dance floor with me and we danced. During that she hugged me, kissed me and touched me almost everywhere." You should have LEFT at that point. every thing else you said and did and what happend is because you did not leave at THAT moment. You blame this on her, but you could have stopped it at any time by leaving the dance floor. Every thing else happened because of choice you made .

Basically you rationalize that it is OK for anything to happen especially if a GG is involved and paying attention. You cannot say it's OK for everyone else because its OK by you.

Now you wife is unhappy and you have rationalized "my wife understands". As many here can attest, it does not matter where you live or your culture. Women (GG) have long memories and you as a Man (TG/CD) may think and believe all is good until that day when their Silent Suffering overflows.

If you wife did the same things you are doing would you be OK with it ? Reconsider you actions or you may find your car IS your permanent residence.

[faltenrock]

It amazes me sometimes the length that some people go to sabotage their own relationships.

For most married people going to a bar or club alone and dancing and drinking with others is not the way to stay married. You have proven that this too is something that you should not do as well since as you said "Not long after that she took my hands and went to the dance floor with me and we danced. During that she hugged me, kissed me and touched me almost everywhere." You should have LEFT at that point. every thing else you said and did and what happend is because you did not leave at THAT moment. You blame this on her, but you could have stopped it at any time by leaving the dance floor. Every thing else happened because of choice you made .

Basically you rationalize that it is OK for anything to happen especially if a GG is involved and paying attention. You cannot say it's OK for everyone else because its OK by you.

Now you wife is unhappy and you have rationalized "my wife understands". As many here can attest, it does not matter where you live or your culture. Women (GG) have long memories and you as a Man (TG/CD) may think and believe all is good until that day when their Silent Suffering overflows.

If you wife did the same things you are doing would you be OK with it ? Reconsider you actions or you may find your car IS your permanent residence.

It seems like my post provokes an interesting discussion about all kinds of issues.

As much as I find a lot of true words, I do get irritated by the amount and 'quality' of responses where people put themselves and their opinion over someone else and claim to be better with a higher level of integrity.
Lifestyles are different, you got to accept that or not.
Going out alone to s club for dancing and drinking with others is really nothing to risk a marriage or partnership - this is simply 'bullshit' to me.

I know what I should have done. But most of you miss the point in here.
And don't tell me I sabotage my own relationship, who are you to tell me that, have we met, do you know who I am, do you know my marriage? You fool yourself if you think you could make any conclusions about what I said.
To me it seems like some people gain some kind of gratification telling others what's right and wrong.
You might also like to hit someone, who's just trying to understand something.

Instead, I would advice to look at your own life and relationship and think about if that's all that perfect.
With some of the 'moral' advices here, I think crossdressing for itself is something to ruin your relationship.
Everyone of us CD is putting some kind of stress on a partnership.

Think about that, if crossdressing is so much more acceptable than dancing alone with other people at night when dressed or not and less questionable for the future and stability of a relationship with a wife.

[gina shiney]

Thank you for your thread
I can adjust myself to understand how what and why, there are lessons for all in your story not just CD. Yes while out and about by oneself at night ìn another city enjoying the scene intending harmless entertainment, be aware. Yes things can happen not intentionally and when they do they can spiral. I this case you were fortunate and now would be wiser in similar circumstances.
Most posters are from the states and to me that's what makes your post interesting.The differences in the culture probably have bearing on some of the hostile replies.
gina shiney

[AllieSF]

Doreen, I totally get what you are talking about in this new relationship experience that you had. You do live in a very different society and culture than we Americans, and I would guess our cousins in the UK do. I have lived and worked extensively in South America, which on the whole is very Catholic but with much less hang ups/restrictions than us Puritans have here. So I get that what may be looked at one way in one culture may be looked at in another way someplace else.

I think that I also understand the why for all of this. I am a very open person once someone gets to know me. I love new people and new experiences. I also try not to be tied to hypocritical beliefs of others. The advice given here works well for most of us in the USA, but maybe not so much in more liberated cultures. That advice is meant to be helpful with some standard criticism thrown in, as is our way of trying to help someone can sometimes be. I understand your posts as a sharing of an experience that affected you deeply. I have had some similar ones, only I am single, so less complications. That is not to say that they were not or are not complicated. What is beautiful about this thread is that how open and truthful your are. You have opened yourself to criticism from some, but you did it anyway. You made some mistakes and you are owning them. How many here do the same? Thanks

I have read most of all your previous posts here and have wanted to meet you on one of your trips to the San Francisco area. Maybe one day that will happen. The one thing about this new me, is that it has opened my eyes to many things around me and has allowed me to experience new things, feelings and meet new people that in my previous life would have been "verboten". I am so happy that I can now meet and get to know them, as I am now able to understand better how false and restricted a "normal" life can be, and how hypocritical it can be too. Good people are everywhere, we just need to open our eyes, hearts, and minds, lower our restrictions to be able to learn and experience something new, that is not bad in the true sense of the word, not society's restricted definition of it. Please keep sharing, maybe others will eventually get enlightened too.

[Tracii G]

What amazes me is you said you made a mistake yet you are still trying to justify your behavior.
It seems you have a pension for making bad decisions.

[Kelly DeWinter]

You really don't "get it". What a lot of people are saying is "you are hurting your wife" and your wife is saying "you are hurting me". If you were expecting everyone to just post to your thread saying, "go on get out and go for it", its not going to happen. I've noticed you posted this thread multiple times, so you are probably looking for affirmation.

There is no gratification in telling someone they are right or wrong, and no moral high ground either.

It would have been great to hear more about what you could do to avoid this in the future, because the last part of your post you said "The woman seemed to give what my wonderful relationship seemed to lack". Even if you did not have a physical affair with another person, you had an Emotional Affair. To a lot of GG's there is no separating the two.

So no it's not an attack on you or a lack of understanding because of cultural differences but more just people hoping two or three years from now we wont be reading another divorce/separation post.

[Dana44]

Doreen, I wanted to remind people here in this thread in the states that even cisgender people out dancing will dance with others. Dancing is not the problem She stated that she cut it off and informed her wife. I understand why that happened as we all have been though that at some point. Even here in the states. But cutting it off was the best decision and we should all learn from this. This is a good thread that a person explained the entire story and made the correct decision.

[LeslieSD]

First of all, you have a family and a wonderful wife (who is tolerate of not only your dressing but also your going out to clubs). It is good that you have been honest with your wife about the episode. But disclosure does not mean approval. Your wife has clearly indicated that she is hurt. So if you care about your family and your own life, the obvious choice would be to close all the connections with the new girl.

Secondly, let's for one second assume that you are not married and are single and free. This new girl has so many red flags all over her. She obviously is confused about what she wants. She cannot control herself. And she behaves like a drama queen. Dating or marrying her will lead your life down a very uneven path. The excitement of a new relationship will wear out quickly, and you will soon wonder why and kick yourself for getting yourself into this.

Listen to the older folks here and wise up.

[giuseppina]

Hello Faltenrock,

I have never been in a relationship with anyone.

That said, if I had a GF that did what you did and told me about it, that would be the end of the relationship. Yes, I have trust issues.

If I were married, and my wife did that, she would receive a thorough tongue-lashing. Continuing the relationship would be conditional on a course of counselling to determine why she would abrogate trust in that way.

Your marriage has taken a serious hit. Your wife and children are fully justified in their feelings of anger and upset with you. It is up to you to determine what this is about and regain their trust, if that is still possible. You don't have much time to get going on this.

[suzanne]

I don't want to be seen as moralistic in stating what is right and wrong. That is up to you to decide with your wife. Some spouses are very flexible in what kind of behavior is acceptable within the context of the relationship, others are not. Once again, a protracted, brutally honest conversation is the only method of BOTH of you setting out your own personal ground rules.

That said, in your posts there are a huge number of situations where there is a strong possibility of destroying a marriage, all of which took place without benefit of that negotiation. Furthermore, there is a potential trust issue, as in "He's admitted to this much. How much more is there that he hasn't admitted to?" In light of all these transgressions, real or potential, you need to be prepared to make a lot of concessions to your wife and be immaculate in staying true to her wishes for a very long time. For example, you should be prepared to give up dancing at that one nightclub or any other, forever. This isn't about morality, it's about restoring her trust in you.

On the other hand, you have the right to have your need to crossdresss respected and inserted into the negotiations. Your feelings count just as much as hers, and if you are forced to scurry around in the shadows by her DADT attitude, that's not healthy either.

[ellbee]

This new girl has so many red flags all over her.

I'll put on my armchair psychologist hat for a moment, and based on the story, I say she has one (or more) Cluster B personality disorders, probably to a pretty strong degree...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_B_personality_disorders


Borderline, perhaps? :strugglin



My advice: Stay away.

Been there, done that. And that rabbit hole is not fun.


Hate to say that, but... Sorry, there it is.

[char GG]

If you are asking for input from GG's, I will chime in here.

If you were my husband, I would be livid! And very hurt. The dressing and dancing is not the problem, it's the emotional aspect. You let yourself lose control of the situation. You also potentially put yourself in a very dangerous situation. I'm not sure you were thinking clearly. If you continue to act like a single man, you may end up being a single man.

I also find it odd that after your long post about the woman that you met, you went into great detail about what you were wearing. I don't see the connection.

[faltenrock]

Doreen, I totally get what you are talking about in this new relationship experience that you had. You do live in a very different society and culture than we Americans, and I would guess our cousins in the UK do. I have lived and worked extensively in South America, which on the whole is very Catholic but with much less hang ups/restrictions than us Puritans have here. So I get that what may be looked at one way in one culture may be looked at in another way someplace else.

I think that I also understand the why for all of this. I am a very open person once someone gets to know me. I love new people and new experiences. I also try not to be tied to hypocritical beliefs of others. The advice given here works well for most of us in the USA, but maybe not so much in more liberated cultures. That advice is meant to be helpful with some standard criticism thrown in, as is our way of trying to help someone can sometimes be. I understand your posts as a sharing of an experience that affected you deeply. I have had some similar ones, only I am single, so less complications. That is not to say that they were not or are not complicated. What is beautiful about this thread is that how open and truthful your are. You have opened yourself to criticism from some, but you did it anyway. You made some mistakes and you are owning them. How many here do the same? Thanks

I have read most of all your previous posts here and have wanted to meet you on one of your trips to the San Francisco area. Maybe one day that will happen. The one thing about this new me, is that it has opened my eyes to many things around me and has allowed me to experience new things, feelings and meet new people that in my previous life would have been "verboten". I am so happy that I can now meet and get to know them, as I am now able to understand better how false and restricted a "normal" life can be, and how hypocritical it can be too. Good people are everywhere, we just need to open our eyes, hearts, and minds, lower our restrictions to be able to learn and experience something new, that is not bad in the true sense of the word, not society's restricted definition of it. Please keep sharing, maybe others will eventually get enlightened too.

Dear Allie SF, thank you so much for your wonderful, open and helping words and understanding the situation I was in. I didn't know about that you would have liked to meet in San Francisco. One of my best friends still lives in my old flat, we went to Art school together. I'm not sure when I will have another chance to visit my favorite of all cities. Last year I spent almost 4 weeks in the US, East Coast, with my wife. We visited a few friends and had a great trip.
Thanks again so much

- - - Updated - - -


First of all, you have a family and a wonderful wife (who is tolerate of not only your dressing but also your going out to clubs). It is good that you have been honest with your wife about the episode. But disclosure does not mean approval. Your wife has clearly indicated that she is hurt. So if you care about your family and your own life, the obvious choice would be to close all the connections with the new girl.

Secondly, let's for one second assume that you are not married and are single and free. This new girl has so many red flags all over her. She obviously is confused about what she wants. She cannot control herself. And she behaves like a drama queen. Dating or marrying her will lead your life down a very uneven path. The excitement of a new relationship will wear out quickly, and you will soon wonder why and kick yourself for getting yourself into this.

Listen to the older folks here and wise up.

Thank you Leslie, your words are some of the best and closest to respond with understanding and not badly judging written in this threat. As this is true for most people in a relationship in this forum, we all have a history regarding our crossdressing desire and habits and perhaps incidents with pain for both partners. So do we, my wife and me.
I said, that I cut off this short, let's call it friendship, interaction, episode or what ever label fits, completely after I saw her last Saturday. What you said about this confused lady is correct. I needed to understand her to be able to understand myself. There was never any thought of leaving my wife or losing my love for my wife and family. It was much more about understanding myself.
Thanks again for your good analysis.

- - - Updated - - -


If you are asking for input from GG's, I will chime in here.

If you were my husband, I would be livid! And very hurt. The dressing and dancing is not the problem, it's the emotional aspect. You let yourself lose control of the situation. You also potentially put yourself in a very dangerous situation. I'm not sure you were thinking clearly. If you continue to act like a single man, you may end up being a single man.

I also find it odd that after your long post about the woman that you met, you went into great detail about what you were wearing. I don't see the connection.

Thank you Char GG, I'm with you what you say. As some other post stated, I did lose control over the situation, that was a big mistake and I'm to blame for that heavily. Someone said, I could have and should have stopped this after we started dancing, I admit that this is true and this won't happen again. I'm able to earn from my mistakes. I know I hurt my wife strongly and I need to gain back all her trust. I'm also sure we will have to talk about US more often and in depth. She knows all about me. I had a terrible accident as a young boy, with visual permanent marks in my face, and had to grow up fast at 11, without having experienced puberty, a lack of love from my parents and emotional isolation for many years. However this is NOT an excuse! But my wife knows all about it and does understand why I was emotionally touched by this woman. I felt honored and appreciated, even dressed and with my visual marks and wounds.
My wife is very intelligent and understood that. Again, I did hurt my wife.
That first night I was very receptive for the attention that this woman gave me. In the days and weeks after we 'connected', I realized what had happened and even more today, I understand what happened to me and why I lost some control. I don't only blame it on this woman, as it was my own responsibility to stop this in the very first moment.

Yes, I put myself in a very dangerous situation, first I didn't realize any possible scenario. Only next morning after I left I understood what I could have experienced - stupid me.

Char GG, don't overvalue the dressing. I don't actually know why I made that an issue in this threat. It does not have anything to do with the night or incident, you're right with that.

- - - Updated - - -


I'll put on my armchair psychologist hat for a moment, and based on the story, I say she has one (or more) Cluster B personality disorders, probably to a pretty strong degree...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_B_personality_disorders


Borderline, perhaps? :strugglin



My advice: Stay away.

Been there, done that. And that rabbit hole is not fun.


Hate to say that, but... Sorry, there it is.



Laurababe, thanks for that link and your thoughts. I'm not a psychologist, but after thinking in the two weeks following our first meet, I was
sure that there are a few personality disorders. She actually admitted that, but it was not really put into words, it was 'foggy' what she said.
As I was trying to understand myself in that situation, I tried to look into that woman and her personality.
If that's of any interest for you an a psychologist, I tell you what I know. She was was sent out of the war in Yugoslavia (Croatia, Serbia) by her family to save her life to Holland at the age of 14 to 16. In Holland she went though a psychological process of recovery from war trauma.
In Holland, she must have met her current and probably first boyfriend, who happened to be 27 or 28 years at the time. She got pregnant quickly and had an abortion at 17. At 31, she experienced a miscarriage after 7 weeks of pregnancy.
That's pretty much all I know, except, that she had an experience with another CD or TS person, of whom I reminded her very much she said. That must have left a heavy impression on her, she did not get into details about that.
This happened in the same year as the miscarriage.

I don't know what this all means in the aspect of psychology, you might be able to draw conclusions from that.

You've given a very strong and clear advice - stay away. Thanks for that, I came to that conclusion myself, but it took a little longer.

[Rogina B]

It seems like my post provokes an interesting discussion about all kinds of issues.
Everyone of us CD is putting some kind of stress on a partnership.

Think about that, if crossdressing is so much more acceptable than dancing alone with other people at night when dressed or not and less questionable for the future and stability of a relationship with a wife.
A lot of the discussion is based on common sense from experience. You left the club with a woman that wanted to know you better...That isn't just dancing,sorry.. And your wife isn't on board with your crossdressing anyway,so I don't see "an open minded" wife that might be cool with a "sleepover" or two. And,my opinion doesn't come from a Nun..It comes from a full time TG that has been married for 17 years and living an out life for 12 of those. Curb your enthusiasm..Or it may cost you in the long run.

[faltenrock]

A lot of the discussion is based on common sense from experience. You left the club with a woman that wanted to know you better...That isn't just dancing,sorry.. And your wife isn't on board with your crossdressing anyway,so I don't see "an open minded" wife that might be cool with a "sleepover" or two. And,my opinion doesn't come from a Nun..It comes from a full time TG that has been married for 17 years and living an out life for 12 of those. Curb your enthusiasm..Or it may cost you in the long run.

Hi Rogina, basically yes to what you say. Still, we might look at things differently in Europe or Germany in particular. There is nothing wrong if someone wants to get to know a person better. In this case, I don't really think that is what she was up to. I don't think it was me. She was a little drunk and wanted to continue her night out, I think getting to know me better that night ahead was not important to her at that point.
As I said in my long post, she actually turned away from me to talk to the other man on her right, which ended up in touching and deep kissing.
In her last words to me she admitted that she ends up kissing people when she's drunk....

Last Friday, our second and last night out dancing, she already had one or two glasses if white wine when I came up to her and her boyfriend at 7:30 PM.
She opened a bottle of champagne which we both finished until 11 PM. After leaving the house she got in her car and wanted to drive that short distance to the club (300 yards). I said no, you won't drive, your had to much alcohol.
While walking to the nearby club, she told me that in the 1,5 years since she has her drivers license she lost it already once for three months because she drove drunk. I know it doesn't connect to what you said, but it might give another view.
However last Friday, when we left the club at 4 AM she actually asked me if we should go to that club in the next city again, which I refused as I wanted to sleep. She likes to stay out, enjoy 'her' night and away from home as long as possible.

I think Laurababe pretty much got the various problems and disorders, which I can't put into words as a psychologist can.
I will continue talking to my wife as she is my closest and most important person in my life.

[Princess Chantal]

Sounds like you were the chosen one........


The chosen one to be her babysitter!

[IamWren]

There’s a lot to unpack as this thread has progressed.
First, I think it’s pretty brave for Doreen to post her account of this event. Honestly, I’m not sure I’d have the guts to write such a personal (and somewhat embarrassing) story about meeting a new woman and the ensuing events. I say embarrassing because upon reflection, it seems Doreen sees her actions as having been wrong.

The second thing is it’s pretty easy to be a “Monday morning coach” (for our friends who are not from the U.S. that phrase comes from American football games being played on Sundays and all the armchair quarterbacks standing around the workplace watercooler analyzing and saying what went wrong in the game on Monday morning) Anyway, my point is that I think it’s easy to cast stones at Doreen after the fact.

About this new woman, your marriage and going out dancing until the next morning…
I think you should stop communicating with that new woman and stay from the places she goes. It sounds like it could lead to trouble in a number of ways. I think it would be wise to stop behaving like you are a single person, which from my American perspective it sounds like.

But I’m not sure it’s so much a cultural thing as it is a Doreen thing. I have a few friends who are from Europe who live here as well as some family who live in Germany. I don’t see or hear anything from them that would resemble staying gone from their house for days.
I hope you’re able to steer your marriage back on a path of trust.
S.

[Lana Mae]

Doreen, I think you have learned a lesson but is it a small lesson or a big lesson? Do you plan to turn around and go out clubbing, drinking and dancing again or change that? Keep you wife and child in mind when you answer these questions! Just some things to think about! Best wishes Hugs Lana Mae

[Julie Gaum]

Dear Factenock, aka Doreen,
After reading your interesting long thread and your many responses I haven't the foggiest idea why you wrote the thread in the first place! It's not about the motives of "she" or European mores but actually about a very confused Doreen. To put it as kindly as possible the signals,or flares if you will, indicate your need for help well beyond what this, or any Forum can provide. And sadly, it's not the kind of advise you seek.
Julie

[Kelly DeWinter]

Probably the best thing I've taken from this thread after reading all of the posts is that in whatever we do whether it's a situation like the OP or really anything is to be careful of getting caught up in the moment.

[ReineD]

I know that I was weak that day and that and it was something I wanted to tell my wife after the first day, but couldn't at that time. We had dinner Monday night and talked more about it. I love her very much and I was foolish having let this woman gain any kind of control over me.

The lure of an accepting GG is irresistible, or at least it seems to be for many of the members here and so I understand your initial attraction. But, many things can tempt any of us into situations that can negatively impact our lives. People have affairs for all sorts of reasons (not just the CDing), they get into drugs and alcohol to the point of causing issues, they overeat to the point of negatively impacting their health, they spend too much money gambling, and the list is endless. Some people give into these lures and later regret the consequences, while others resist and are able to keep their priorities at the forefront of their minds.

The urge to stray may be strong now but if you resist (you did say you value your wife), it won't be long until this woman is no longer a temptation and you will wonder why you were attracted in the first place.

[faltenrock]

The lure of an accepting GG is irresistible, or at least it seems to be for many of the members here and so I understand your initial attraction. But, many things can tempt any of us into situations that can negatively impact our lives. People have affairs for all sorts of reasons (not just the CDing), they get into drugs and alcohol to the point of causing issues, they overeat to the point of negatively impacting their health, they spend too much money gambling, and the list is endless. Some people give into these lures and later regret the consequences, while others resist and are able to keep their priorities at the forefront of their minds.

The urge to stray may be strong now but if you resist (you did say you value your wife), it won't be long until this woman is no longer a temptation and you will wonder why you were attracted in the first place.

Thank you so much Reine. You're one of the few here who actually try to understand an unusual situation and you've put it into words. I've talked to my wife about more or less every day since. Today when we had coffee at noon, she looked at me and asked 'what', I was looking at her and I felt great and being myself again. I told her that I'm doing very good and that I was glad this is over.
Reine, I will resist, I don't want to see that woman again.
I've thought about her, but now differently. I do feel sorry for her as I do for other people who have deep personality disorders.
She's not a bad person, but in need of help.


Regarding the various responses to my post I must say that I'm disappointed by some members.
Some of the comments here are just not worth answering, such as 'Julie Gaun' - putting me into a file with mentally ill people who need help. Sorry Julie, I know who I am and I'm healthy.

And let me say that to. This forum helped me, it did before with other less important subjects as well. Writing here was more for myself, I get clear what happened by writing down experiences and emotions. As I said in the very beginning of my long post, no one has to read all this. And you seem not even being able to understand anything of what I said and felt - I'm sorry for you.

[Alice B]

Danger, Danger, Danger Will Robonson

[Tracii G]

OK here is the part that makes me think you will go back to her again.
You "feel sorry for her" and "she is not a bad person". That shows me you are leaving an avenue open to return.
You may justify it as "trying to help" but we all know how things got out of hand the first time so what makes you think it won't happen again?
Best thing to do is stay away from her totally.
She is not your responsibility.

[ReineD]

Reine, I will resist, I don't want to see that woman again.

Good for you! Just be sure to find other dancing places to go to for the next little while. Now that you've made the decision, you don't want to place yourself in a situation where you might be tempted. If you're near Amsterdam, there should be hundreds! :)

... and then, after memories of her have truly run cold, you can go back to your old places again.

[faltenrock]

Good for you! Just be sure to find other dancing places to go to for the next little while. Now that you've made the decision, you don't want to place yourself in a situation where you might be tempted. If you're near Amsterdam, there should be hundreds! :)

... and then, after memories of her have truly run cold, you can go back to your old places again.

Good advice, thanks. Amsterdam is too far, and also not that great as one would expect, have been there a few times. Just parking alone is hell, about $ 6,- per hour until midnight every day.
I have a place to go, I know the people, they respect me and they like me. Have been there many times.

For the next probably two months, I plan not to go out. My family and I will spent our vacation in a few weeks and I have a lot of work anyway.

- - - Updated - - -


OK here is the part that makes me think you will go back to her again.
You "feel sorry for her" and "she is not a bad person". That shows me you are leaving an avenue open to return.
You may justify it as "trying to help" but we all know how things got out of hand the first time so what makes you think it won't happen again?
Best thing to do is stay away from her totally.
She is not your responsibility.

I thought someone would jump on this statement. But you're right, I want to stay away totally and yes, I also sere it that way, I'm not responsible for her.

[Teresa]

Faltenrock,
I'm not sure how to say this tactfully but at your age you really need to find some self control, not only is your CDing out of control but also your feelings and consideration towards your family .
I can reflect the same situation with my relationships before I married but to behave as you do at your age isn't good . Maybe you're not giving us the whole story about your marriage but if your behaviour continues you may not have a marriage , and by the way it reads you will then become the victim of every waif and stray that flashes her eyes at you.

Talk about living dangerously , your wife isn't on board with your CDing and now you are bordering cheating on her with another relationship.

Maybe you should seek some professional help before disaster strikes, not unless that is your final intention !

[Amelie]

I can't believe you still drive a station wagon, it must be an antique by now.

I think others here responded better than I would. My blonde brain got lost midway through the story, sorry.

[faltenrock]

Faltenrock,
I'm not sure how to say this tactfully but at your age you really need to find some self control, not only is your CDing out of control but also your feelings and consideration towards your family .
I can reflect the same situation with my relationships before I married but to behave as you do at your age isn't good . Maybe you're not giving us the whole story about your marriage but if your behaviour continues you may not have a marriage , and by the way it reads you will then become the victim of every waif and stray that flashes her eyes at you.

Talk about living dangerously , your wife isn't on board with your CDing and now you are bordering cheating on her with another relationship.

Maybe you should seek some professional help before disaster strikes, not unless that is your final intention !

I don't think you've read everything. I feel that your comment is inappropriate as you don't know me at all. You want to judje my behavior and the things I do. At my age and my crossdressing history, I know exactly who I am and the extend of my CD'ing.
So don't tell me or anyone else to 'out of control'.

- - - Updated - - -


I can't believe you still drive a station wagon, it must be an antique by now.

I think others here responded better than I would. My blonde brain got lost midway through the story, sorry.

Yes I do, I actually have two station wagons, a BMW family car, which is 17 years old, and my classic, which is a 29 year old BMW station wagon. It will be a historic value car in 2018.

[Teresa]

Faltenrock,
I'm sorry if I offended you , but you don't need to defend yourself against us we can only comment on the facts you feed us, and this thread is a repeat of previous similar ones .
You may need the defense with you wife , I can't think many wives would understand and accept the situation as you have told it to us , if it's not the whole story then we are commenting blind.

If I may ask one question , if you know yourself so well how come your story is such a mess and you need to run it past us ?

To me it still suggests you have told this story to tell you it's OK , even without the CDing aspect I can't say your actions deserve a pat on the back and telling you it's all OK .

[ReineD]

Teresa, I just want to point out that on May 10th Faltenrock posted an intention to not pursue this woman, and reaffirmed this on the 12th. And on the 13th you suggested that Faltenrock was lacking control. Did you only read the first post?

Not to be trite, but life is indeed a journey. People start out threads with issues and eventually they resolve them. This is the purpose of the forum. There have been countless members here over the years who have placed themselves in exactly the same situation as Faltenrock, having become besotted with a woman (not their wife) who showed some promise of acceptance. When these members have come here to discuss their quandaries (and I applaud them for doing so before acting on their impulses), the least helpful responses are the ones that point the finger right back at the member by attacking their character.


My blonde brain got lost midway through the story, sorry.

Do you realize how inappropriate this comment is? The "dumb blonde" concept may have been the way men thought of women during the 1950s, but thank goodness we're well past that now.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I've had the full force of forum criticism in the past through members not fully understanding the thread .

I may have missed something on Faltenrock's replies which I apologise for but even so she has pushed her relationship to the limit with her wife, much of what she says happened shouldn't have taken place at all .

I'm sure you wouldn't have enjoyed being treated like it . I hope she has realised the implications of what may have happened and learned from it .

At times the forum has given me a good kick up the backside, I don't claim to be any sort of saint and still may make mistakes.

[Angie G]

Shake it off Doreen. Get you head straight you have one great wife why would you want to f*^k that up. You do look good in that dress hun.:hugs:
Angie

[faltenrock]

Teresa, I just want to point out that on May 10th Faltenrock posted an intention to not pursue this woman, and reaffirmed this on the 12th. And on the 13th you suggested that Faltenrock was lacking control. Did you only read the first post?

Not to be trite, but life is indeed a journey. People start out threads with issues and eventually they resolve them. This is the purpose of the forum. There have been countless members here over the years who have placed themselves in exactly the same situation as Faltenrock, having become besotted with a woman (not their wife) who showed some promise of acceptance. When these members have come here to discuss their quandaries (and I applaud them for doing so before acting on their impulses), the least helpful responses are the ones that point the finger right back at the member by attacking their character.



Do you realize how inappropriate this comment is? The "dumb blonde" concept may have been the way men thought of women during the 1950s, but thank goodness we're well past that now.

Thank you so much Reine,
English is not my mother language, but you put it in words that I perhaps can't do as well.

- - - Updated - - -


Shake it off Doreen. Get you head straight you have one great wife why would you want to f*^k that up. You do look good in that dress hun.:hugs:
Angie

Thank you Angie. I'm a person who does think and reflect a lot about myself and others. Normally I'm not touched that deep emotionally. Only last year and the year before my oldest and best friend (male, went to school together) had really disappointed me too, that of course was different as it is my best friend.
However, incidents with high emotions take a while to see the horizon again.
I'm pretty clear about what happened and why it happened and can recall that experience if I ever run into a person like that again.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Reine ;

As one who has also posted here a time or two an opinion or view that caused other members point out the wrongness of my opinion it can feel like being piled on, I've found upon reflection that usually the members are right. Ultimately everything we do and say in life is a reflection of our character. There are times I wish I'd known 20 years ago some of the more vocal members who DID point out the flaws in my thinking.

The issue is more that the OP posted a thread in this section and in other sections, then went out of her way to disagree with other members and to call out those who did not agree with her. Her subsequent posts challenged the 'quality' of the replies. Mainly because they did not appear to fit her world view.

The thing that the OP does not seem to understand is that her replies tend to play down the "Emotional Affair" and her actions and that it was only the actions of the other woman that kept it from becoming a "Physical Affair".

Whether it was the intent of the OP or not, this thread has provoked a lot of good conversation. And it reiterates one very good aspect of this community. That is that members of this community will not let another member get away with a soft rebuke when a much stronger one is needed.

[jennifer0918]

I'm confused, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. Why sleep in your car?why go to a house of a woman you just met?why make her feel bad ?what she did at the club with that other guy is not your business, it sounds like she never criticized you for not telling your wife about her,but your selfish not thinking about her feelings and your wifes feeling. It sounds like you were more worried about your ego,and your pride. That letter you wrote was out of place, why write anything down,keep those toughts in your mind no need to publish, because once it's on paper it becomes fact,people see it as truth. Any who good luck with your life. Love your long posts.
Cheerio

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. Doreen, LEAVE THE OTHER NAMELESS GIRL ALONE! You have a family

[faltenrock]

I'm confused, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. Why sleep in your car?why go to a house of a woman you just met?why make her feel bad ?what she did at the club with that other guy is not your business, it sounds like she never criticized you for not telling your wife about her,but your selfish not thinking about her feelings and your wifes feeling. It sounds like you were more worried about your ego,and your pride. That letter you wrote was out of place, why write anything down,keep those toughts in your mind no need to publish, because once it's on paper it becomes fact,people see it as truth. Any who good luck with your life. Love your long posts.
Cheerio

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. Doreen, LEAVE THE OTHER NAMELESS GIRL ALONE! You have a family

Thank you too Jennifer, perhaps it makes sense to explain a bit more.
I don't feel I would have to JUSTIFY my actions, but perhaps it makes it more clear, eventually.
This treat is interesting, so here I have some more comments. If you really want to understand, just read what I wrote in my first post here.

Why sleep in my car?
I have a business that requires a lot of travel and over night stays. Since about 9 years, I usually sleep in my car in safe places, why? It safes a lot of money that I would have to spend on hotel/motels - it's actually pretty simple to understand.

Why go home with a woman I just met?
I explained that in my long post. I did not intend to do that at all, I was also no interested to deepen the contact with her at this point, I just wanted to leave. I had a clear opinion of her after that night.
In front of her house, that woman started crying hysterically when I told her I'll go some safe place to stay in my car and that I do not want to stay at her place. However, I made that BIG mistake to go with her, I'm to blame for that.
I've never left a crying woman behind, actually that never happened before in my whole life.

I didn't make her feel bad.

Yes, I felt that it was NOT my business what she did in the second club, I talked to other people and enjoyed the night that way.

"it sounds like she never criticized you for not telling your wife about her,but your selfish not thinking about her feelings and your wifes feeling"
Sorry Jennifer, you're totally wrong here. How could you assume I didn't care about my wife or that I was selfish?
She didn't know that I'm married that night, we didn't really talk that much, she spent more time with the other man.
There was nothing to think about regarding her possible feelings. She told me that she lives with her boyfriend in front of her house and was crying. I tried to be nice to stop that crying by leaving my car to go up to her and her boyfriends flat - and yes, that was a big mistake.

I got the most valuable from the member 'laurababe'. I'm not sure if she is in fact a psychologist and it doesn't matter. But I took the advice and followed the link and read about the 'Cluster B', 'borderline' and related disorders.
That cleared up a lot of things that happened. After reading a lot, I can understand myself a lot better now. Now I know what happened and what the causes were.
Crying in front of me when I wanted to leave the first night was intentional by her and part of her borderline personality disorder.

I don't feel like it's necessary to reply to your last comments.

[Dutchess]

I'm gonna swoop in here since I was "married to the dutch people" for a very long time. Vaporize from this woman anyway you can . They are bold and when they want something there will be no boundaries and will have absolutely no issue showing up at your home , yes just across the border in Germany , and demand you from your wife . I saw this happen three time in the 4 years I lived in The Netherlands ( Holland) 2 driving several hundred miles and we all know what I brought back home in the ,male variety . I have had to struggle with being friends with women ever since .

[Suzanne F]

Allie you are the best !!!! Love and tolerance is our code in a program I am part of for last 15 years. There is a big difference in concern and criticism. I too love the honesty she has shared about her experience. Yes maybe she made some mistakes in judgement but who hasn't?
Suzanne