Misguided transitioners

[Peggy Gardiner]

On her website (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html) Lynn Conway has this to say:


Finally, there are lots of folks who mingle in among the transgender community but who aren't easily "classified" as, or recognized as, being transgender. One large diffuse grouping consists of people who have done poorly in life, who can't hold their own among other men, who feel like "failures as men", and who then somehow get into their heads that "maybe they should have been women instead". Perhaps they did a little crossdressing in the past, and then hear about transgenderism and think "Aha! That's the explanation for all my problems!" Or perhaps they envy the dependent "kept status" that some young pretty women achieve, and wish they could find a sugar daddy to take care of them too. In a state of confusion about such things, these people sometimes join TG support groups, or come into TG shelters and clinics in the large cities, and seek help for a "sex change" by claiming that they are "transgender".

These "underachievers" are a very difficult group to sort out and to help. Many suffer from mental illness, others are substance abusers, many are in poor health, and most have other complex psychosocial adjustment problems. Many of these people think that they can be turned into pretty women if only the "doctors would give them hormones and perform surgery on them", thinking that they themselves don't have to do anything but undergo the treatments. Presenting as "victims", they often throw themselves onto the clinics and welfare systems pleading for help.

Unfortunately, such dependent people make very poor candidates for gender transition, since they lack the problem-solving abilities and personal development skills to handle such a complex project, independent of whether such a project makes any sense for them. Lacking clear-cut female gender identities, their transition attempts usually fail disastrously, resulting in further social marginalization. These "underachievers" often haunt the edges of many TG/TS support groups, where they may remain for years (and their visible presence in support groups often frightens young transitioners from approaching such groups). These are sad cases for which there are now no ready solutions.

Is this really a common occurrence? I haven't come across it much reading threads on this board, but then most people are talking about their personal circumstances and not those of others, so much; nor have I read much akin to this in all the stories about transitioning I've been reading recently. Letters to the editors of TG journals asking about obtaining hormones seem to be pretty common, with the inevitable response that no one should do something like that without first consulting a therapist.

Being a fairly enthusiastic crossdresser the idea of going whole hog into the world of women has its appeal, but that's certainly nothing I'd rush into without seeing how I feel in a few years. I certainly don't manifest much of any GD myself.

[KellyJameson]

I found having a gender identity opposite the body I was born with to be a curse and a haunting. I was sure it was a mental illness or a consequence of something that went wrong in childhood. I absolutely fought it and partly because I was very aware of the history of women as second class citizens. Transitioning was a desperate last act to find and save what little sanity I had left.

It solved a perpetual existential crisis that I could not escape otherwise because nothing could convince the me at my deepest core that I was not a woman. It was a daily fight starting around my third year of age when my gender identity formed and everything since confirmed this belief so every minute was a confirmation of a truth I realized at three years of age. I could not reverse this self knowledge and awareness.

Delving into the transgender world was shocking when I realized how many people transitioned who fit into Lynn Conway's description.

It is very common. I do not understand why any man would fantasize about becoming a woman but I now realize that many men do exactly that. There is something about men that worships and adores womanhood and see it as a mystical experience. Men have a very peculiar relationship with the opposite sex. They see women as something ethereal and other worldly combined with a rejection of their own inner emotional life and this makes for a deadly brew when it is so acceptable to transition.

This understanding is the basis of why I discourage most people from transitioning. In my opinion they out number people who had my experience.

I believe we are entering a time where more men as men will transition because they are men than actual women.

[Peggy Gardiner]

I believe we are entering a time where more men as men will transition because they are men than actual women.

Is that because of the widespread availability of information on how to transition? It's good that someone with as high profile as Lynn strongly cautions people to take a good look at themselves and make sure this is what they want to do.

I fit the profile she draws up in a lot of ways too, being middle aged and ever dissatisfied with myself in various ways; but for now I'm just trying to work on doing more positive things for myself and focusing on what I've achieved.

Why want to fully become a woman? I'm always wishing I could start from scratch in so many ways, and putting on the trappings of femininity feels so good, why not keep going? I've done similar things on a small scale in other ways too. Last night I watched the brilliant film Five Easy Pieces, where at the start we see Jack Nicholson as this rough and ready worker in the oil fields of southern California; slowly we realize he grew up in an upper class household, trained to be the most brilliant concert pianist possible, but turned his back on the whole thing as fully as possible. I don't want to give any more away, really, it's a fantastic film everyone should see, and depicts in another way what these men longing to utterly transform themselves are manifesting, I believe.

[Nikki.]

being middle aged and partially dissatisfied with how life has gone is just part of the human experience. most
everyone feels that way. as most people age beyond their 50's they become more content and accepting of how life turned out. that is not a reason to transition. if you're ok being a guy who likes to crossdress, be a guy who likes to crossdress.

[Peggy Gardiner]

I'm not about to do anything beyond getting a consultation fron a electrolygist and dressing androgynous while out and about. The whole subject of gender just fascinates me, including peoples' motivations for transition.

Being a woman in today's society would of course have plenty of downsides; but what about the positives? I too am amazed that someone would be ready to invest so much money and pain in such a venture, though. Conway''s three examples of transition gone bad certainly weren't short on cash, at least.

[AlyssaJ]

There's a really fine line here. We try so hard to avoid the "Your not trans enough" judgement of others, but at the same time if Lynn's point is truly supported by the numbers then this is concerning. I'm transitioning in mid-life but that's about the extent of where my storyline follows her. I have actually been very successful as a man. I've got a solid career with a high ranking position and making a very commanding salary. I've had a very good marriage for 18 years, a wife and 3 kids that I treated very well.

However, for me the experience of a mis-match of my gender identity goes all the way back to my early childhood. What's been interesting for me however is that I haven't had the experience of some where I knew it and was adamant about it at an early age. While I knew something wasn't right, I never in my younger days said I'm a girl. Instead I dabbled in cross-dressing, was jealous of the girls around me, and ultimately thought it was all a mental issue I had that made me feel that way. Shame caused me to bury my feelings for 39 years, and I did a very good job of it. Despite all the discomfort, I refused to admit to myself what the reality was. It was only after spending time in therapy that I was able to look back on all of those experiences from my past and appreciate them for what they really were. They were all a product of my gender not matching the body I was given.

That said, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. The idea that some people think this is fun or glamorous or whatever is pretty scary. I've risked my job, many friendships, blown up my marriage and hurt many people I love over this. There's nothing cool about it. However, I also take that argument with a grain of salt. It has been a favorite rallying cry of the alt-right lately to accuse the young generation who are more gender aware of entering the transgender world because it's fashionable. So I am more cautious when people make that claim simply because often times it's rooted in ignorance or even hate, not fact. In Lynn's case, there's also the potential for some of that Transgender Exclusivity that we see rear it's ugly head, especially in those who blazed some of these trails. I've met a few trans women who are like that, and basically feel that somehow threatened by the increasing numbers of transitioning people. Almost like they want to be that special snowflake and don't want others invading their club. It's really sad to think it's true but since I know a couple personally, I have to accept that it does exist. I'd love to know on what facts/numbers Lynn Conway bases this claim so I could better understand the reality of it.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Alyssa make a very valid point regarding "Your not trans enough". Lynn Conway has not for the first time espoused a view that there are "large groups" of people within the TG community who are hanger ons. Its a sad commentary when one considers her work in exposing conversion therapy in Canada . So what would should be the criteria for being Transgender.
. Physical appearance ? If you don't look female enough you should not be considered transgender
. Physical characteristics ? If you are over 5'7" have a shoe size larger then a Size 10 , you are out ?
. Wealth ? If you don't earn enough to afford complete suite of surgeries , then you need to be a success as a male before you can join 'the club'
. Mentally healthy with Cognitive Thought Processing ability ? LOL is anyone really completely Mentally healthy ?

Sadly within the TG community there are many people who have issues, but the thought that there should be a bar that someone has to jump over to qualify or be accepted within the community is extreme.

The number of people who successfully transition in the physical,social and economical is and will be small until society recognizes and responds to gender identity while people are young enough to healthily transition without the complexity and baggage of living half of your life as the opposite gender.

[AllieSF]

I think that an important point to consider in all this is that, as others have already stated, transsexmuch smaller number. I feel no ill will toward those who make mistakes, feel sorry for them if they end up in a worse case scenario with their lives, and hope that they can successfully recover from all of it. That being said, they will have no effect on me or my life and I believe no effect on others who may decide to transition or are transitioning, or have already transitioned. Why? Because their numbers are just too small to cause any "effect" on anyone else. If as a group or individual we are concerned about them, then our efforts should be to help them versus condemn them. Trannier than thou is a mindset for some but definitely and thankfully not the norm, and does not apply here. In the big picture the mistaken are hurting themselves and maybe those around them, but have no effect on the rest of us.

[Michelle_]

I would be interested in finding out if there is data and research done on this phenomenon of becoming transexual due to underachieving as a man. Although I am not sure what the definition of "underachieving" would actually mean in such a study. Financial? Child bearing? Maybe physical strength or some other metric and combination.
Maybe the people on the fringes just have not lost enough of their sanity yet to transition fully, as Kelly alluded to before she transitioned. Unfortunatly for some of these people, their tolerances to emotional pain may just be higher than others, and prevents them from transitioning. The next question would be, are they transexual or not? I wish I could answer that since I have grappled with this very question.

[Mirya]

I would be interested in finding out if there is data and research done on this phenomenon of becoming transexual due to underachieving as a man.

I think you misinterpreted Lynn Conway's text. The entire quoted section was in regards to a subset of people in the transgender community. Conway does NOT say that they are transsexuals and actually questions whether they are even transgender (of any kind). For the sake of convenience, let's use Conway's own terminology and label these people the "underachievers".

To be clear, these "underachievers" are not crossdressers. Conway has a separate section dedicated to CDs. It's also very important to note that the underachievers are not genderqueers or androgynes either - Conway describes those groups separately in the two paragraphs above the originally quoted text. While she uses the term 'androgynes', on this forum the more commonly used term is 'non-binary', which encompasses genderfluid, bigender, and all the other gender identities that lay somewhere near the middle of the male-female spectrum.

So if they're not TS, or CD, or NB, who are these 'underachievers'? I have no idea, lol. I guess this is why Conway is reluctant to even label them as transgender people.

If all you do is read Peggy's quoted text in the first post, I can see how someone might construe that as a 'trannier than thou' opinion. But if you read the entirety of the surrounding text, I think it's quite clear that that's not what Lynn Conway is saying at all.

[Peggy Gardiner]

Well, I quoted Lynn's entire section on these people, and gave the link to the page, hoping that would suffice. She states they do attempt to transition, in some way - and that they usually fail, which suggests that they at the very least do become CDers, after perhaps doing "a little crossdressing in the past," and that some actually do succeed in their attempts, to what degree isn't stated - as far as SRS? Wondering about who was being described here was why I started this thread. Nothing about the text quoted conveys much of an attitude to me, rather that these people are really pitiful.

[Lauri K]

Lynn's information is somewhat stale and approaching a decade old or better

She truly has missed the mark..on several of her talking points

Why cant she just be happy and let others do their thing, who is she to be the judge and jury of determining success or failure of a transition

In talking to others here and out in the world here is what I can confirm, No two transitions are the same, she doesn't seem to get that

No disrespect to her or others but you need some guidance to read her stuff or you may could end up misguided............

I say "Be Yourself" that's what counts

[jentay1367]

Really..and I say this withall sincerity, why should we give a damn? I remember my Therapist bringing up Autogynophilia. We had an interesting conversation about the concept and in the end I remember asking her, "let's assume I am? Then what? , what now".
If I am, as Dr. Anne Lawrnence claims to be, does that mean I'm not entitled to live my life as I choose? If Kelly Jameson's long suffering archetype of the man who would be queen is not transsexual, then what? What difference does any of this make other than parsing each others words and acting as gatekeepers on who's fit to transition and who isn't. How will we keep those that shouldn't transition safe? Wait...the overwhelming majority in the 90th percentile is happily transitioned? What could that mean? We are spiritual beings in physical bodies. We all have the right to choose our destinies, unfettered by others perspectives and pointed fingers. In the final analysis, I see nothing of value in deciding whether or not someone meets some clinicians criteria. At the end of the conversation it's only another person's opinion and should carry no weight in in an individuals life choice.

[Michelle_]

I may have definitly misinterpreted Conway's words Mirya, lol. I am more interested in the theorized "failed as a man" starting point for these individuals misguided transition, than what we call them. For all I know, I could be one, and probably won't know until I looked back after more progress in my transition. That scares the makeup right off my face. :)

[KellyJameson]

One of the reasons I feared transitioning was the awareness that men are vulnerable to gender identity fragmentation. Most men are raised by mothers and often have little contact with men or the contact they do have is negative.

The boy must separate from the mother and create his own identity when there are little avenues to do this.

Emotionally sensitive boys are often isolated or isolate themselves by avoiding the more ruff and tumble boys.

There is also a strong correlation between sexual attraction to men and MtF transitioners which begs the question is it sexual attraction for men that creates the desire to transition?

The more you immerse yourself into the world of transgenders/transsexuals the more you see patterns emerge that leaves a rational person concerned about the truth behind their actions as to their motives.

Most do very little questioning and I suspect it is because they wish to avoid what I put myself through by the intensive questioning I pursued.

I was the classic emotionally sensitive pretty boy with big blue eyes and very feminine features. How much of how I looked combined with this high emotional sensitivity contributed to my adoption of a female gender identity in childhood? I see my history in others constantly and it made me very fearful of the reasons for this identity.

I believe it is anyone's right to identify as transgender or to transition but I do not want to be responsible for being a cheer leader because knowing what I do that would be morally criminal. There are so many forces at work other than gender identity that cannot be refuted or denied if you are honest on the subject.

I repressed my gender identity and made myself sick. I did not create my gender identity because I was sick or for any other reason. It was always there. Anyone who transitions without being able to say this with 100% conviction is taking a serious risk IMO but even with it always being there and this identity asserting itself constantly I have no illusions that it was created more by circumstances after birth than circumstances before birth.

It was and is both nature and nurture.

Because of what men are as to their gender identity and how fragile this identity already is because they were born men I would strongly encourage any man confronted by "Gender Dysphoria" to be extremely cautious and unforgiving in his exploration of the self.

Protect yourself and do the hard painful work to be absolutely sure. This is especially true for those considering this late in life because it is very unlikely you will pass and often this results in imposed isolation at a time when a person can ill afford it.

I pass 100% this I have no doubt but I also have no doubt that the years living as a male left there mark on me and other women experience me as "different from them" Many assume I'm a lesbian even though I have zero interest in women sexually. I have a hint of masculine energy in small ways like my sense of humor and my logical yet emotional way of thinking.

Living as a male shaped me in ways that are so much a part of me that I do not see it but others do even if it is only on a feeling subconscious level

Now imagine someone in their forties/fifties or older transitioning. This is fine if you are sure you can live with others accepting you has a woman because that is how you identify and they accept this but experiencing you as a man.

Be ruthlessly realistic if you walk down this path or you are setting yourself up for serious heartache.

And than there are the health risks of hormones that you take for the rest of your life.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Least we forget Dr. Bowers , Arguably the foremost authority in gender issues subscribes to to the Transgender Umbrella line of thought regarding gender. This is a copy of one of her slides from a recent conference. For me the reason I care when someone such as Conway an early pioneer in the TG community, writes about a topic such as this, is that without really knowing someone, it's wrong to make judgmental statements.

277509

[Mirya]

There is also a strong correlation between sexual attraction to men and MtF transitioners which begs the question is it sexual attraction for men that creates the desire to transition?

Kelly, although I agree with a lot of what you wrote, I have to disagree with this point. From what I've seen, a lot of late transitioners (the majority, really) remain attracted to women before, during, and after transition. I'm like you in that I'm sexually attracted to men, and so sometimes I have difficulty fully understanding how a MtF can be attracted to women, but I also firmly believe that sexual orientation and gender identity are two separate things.


I pass 100% this I have no doubt but I also have no doubt that the years living as a male left there mark on me and other women experience me as "different from them" Many assume I'm a lesbian even though I have zero interest in women sexually. I have a hint of masculine energy in small ways like my sense of humor and my logical yet emotional way of thinking.

Living as a male shaped me in ways that are so much a part of me that I do not see it but others do even if it is only on a feeling subconscious level

Oh, this is so true for me too! I pass extremely well - I've had FFS, I'm 5'7" and 125 lbs, and even my hands and fingers are very slim and feminine. My voice is fine too, as I've had professional voice training and always get gendered as female even on the phone. But I didn't begin my transition until my late 30's, and I guess that all those years living as a man had an impact on me. It's not so much my appearances, mannerisms, or comportment at this point - but rather I think it's the way that I socialize and interact with others. It's certainly not masculine, and almost certainly mostly feminine, but like you say there must be a hint of masculine energy because some very perceptive women are able to sense something 'off' about me.

As an example, I came out to one of my cis female friends a few months ago, after we'd already become good friends. When I told her that I'm transgender, she was very surprised. She said she had no idea, even though she'd met other transgender women in the past. But she did say that she thought I might be lesbian - something that you said happens to you as well, Kelly. Like you, I also have no interest in women sexually - I've never had sex with a woman or even kissed a girl because I'm just not attracted to women like that. Maybe after another 10-20 years of living as a woman, this hint of masculine energy will gradually go away? I'm hopeful, but I'm not sure.

[Kate T]

There is also a strong correlation between sexual attraction to men and MtF transitioners which begs the question is it sexual attraction for men that creates the desire to transition?


Umm...... Studies??? Because I am unaware of anyone apart from the bullshit from Blanchard and Prince and co who really asserts this.

In itself the above seems an innocuous statement until you realise it has been use for years as an excuse to deny trans women the treatments they need.

[AmandaM]

There have been times when I was sure I was TS. Yet there were some indicators I was not. I get jealous of attractive women and wish I was them. But not the unattractive. I also can't see myself as someday being an old woman. And if I think of "me" with a vagina, no, I get a visceral reaction to that.

But through therapy with capable therapists, especially the one I have now, I've been pegged as a "true transvestite" twice, or a crossdresser who's motivation is ultimately erotic. Can you imagine, if I did hormones and had the euphoric effect? I read one TS's story where on the operating table she knew it was wrong but passed out and couldn't stop it. Wow.

[Dakota1981]

The one thing I agree with is that you had better be absolutely sure it's what you want to do. 110% sure at least. There better not be a shadow of a doubt. I am struggling with such a problem. While I like to make my own decisions and am confident in the way I think, in situations with life changing implications, I tend to be one who is easily persuades to follow another line of thought. In talking to my therapist, I explained this. If certain family members and friends who don't know of my gender dysphoria and wouldn't care if I did it or if my job wouldn't suffer due to it(very male oriented), I have said I would most likely be on the road to transition already. But there is always that what if in the back of my head. Not just for this situation, but every major decision in my life.

But everyone is different. While some stories are similar, others are very different. But everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all for someone considering transition. It's much like politics... No matter what story you tell or what reasoning you follow, there will always be someone who doesn't agree with it and has another side to it. In trying to please everyone, it's an impossible thought. And trying to lump many or most of transitioning people into a single reasoning is also impossible.

[MarieTS]

Kelly--so true. My realization formed at that same toddler age. We could have been play-pen sisters (smile).

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Umm...... Studies??? Because I am unaware of anyone apart from the bullshit from Blanchard and Prince and co who really asserts this.

In itself the above seems an innocuous statement until you realise it has been use for years as an excuse to deny trans women the treatments they need.

plus 1...

amazing some of this garbage is still out there...

anecdotes are interesting but mostly worthless... "i knew a guy/gal who...."

[jentay1367]

plus 1...

amazing some of this garbage is still out there...

anecdotes are interesting but mostly worthless... "i knew a guy/gal who...."


Hear, hear....apocryphal crap that gets repeated over and over till it becomes some kind of weird "truth" simply because of how many times it's been spewed, just serves to damage the community further. It would be so nice if people didn't play Psychologist.

[Kelly DeWinter]

............. crap that gets repeated over and over till it becomes some kind of weird "truth" simply because of how many times it's been spewed ...........

We also have to acknowledge that a tremendous number of people feel the same way about the topic of Gender Identity. How would you respond to someone who asks for scientific proof, when members of the community are reluctant to participate in such studies ?

P.S. I am not saying I agree with them.

[jentay1367]

I suppose it would all depend on who's asking and why.

[Nikki.]

One of the reasons I feared transitioning was the awareness that men are vulnerable to gender identity fragmentation. Most men are raised by mothers and often have little contact with men or the contact they do have is negative.

Most? Based on what? My empirical evidence growing up viewing friends and family was most boys i knew had a positive male role model in their lives. My father certainly was. very much alpha male, loved and cared for us, payed attention to us, etc.



The boy must separate from the mother and create his own identity when there are little avenues to do this.

Emotionally sensitive boys are often isolated or isolate themselves by avoiding the more ruff and tumble boys.

There is also a strong correlation between sexual attraction to men and MtF transitioners which begs the question is it sexual attraction for men that creates the desire to transition?

yeah, going with Kate on this one. Based on what?




The more you immerse yourself into the world of transgenders/transsexuals the more you see patterns emerge that leaves a rational person concerned about the truth behind their actions as to their motives.

Most do very little questioning and I suspect it is because they wish to avoid what I put myself through by the intensive questioning I pursued.


I haven't been around too many ts or tg peeps that i know of, but i don't know why i would concern myself with their motivations regarding their gender activities?



I was the classic emotionally sensitive pretty boy with big blue eyes and very feminine features. How much of how I looked combined with this high emotional sensitivity contributed to my adoption of a female gender identity in childhood? I see my history in others constantly and it made me very fearful of the reasons for this identity.


I was emotionally sensitive and an outcast and considered a wimp, not a pretty boy. i don't think these attributes caused me to identify as tg; i think i was born tg and these attributes are in part due to my brain being wired that way.


I believe it is anyone's right to identify as transgender or to transition but I do not want to be responsible for being a cheer leader because knowing what I do that would be morally criminal. There are so many forces at work other than gender identity that cannot be refuted or denied if you are honest on the subject.


forces other than gender identity issues that cause people to transition? I'm not doubting your hypothesis, but i'm curious as to what you think those forces are? It's hard for me to imagine anyone choosing to transition genders for any reason other than strong gender dysphoria. I would give a lot to be cis gendered, and to never ever think about any trans related ever again.



I repressed my gender identity and made myself sick. I did not create my gender identity because I was sick or for any other reason. It was always there. Anyone who transitions without being able to say this with 100% conviction is taking a serious risk IMO but even with it always being there and this identity asserting itself constantly I have no illusions that it was created more by circumstances after birth than circumstances before birth.

It was and is both nature and nurture.


I'm curious as to the nurture side of it. I can't think of ANY external force in my childhood that caused me to be this way. i can recall being gender variant around 5.



Because of what men are as to their gender identity and how fragile this identity already is because they were born men I would strongly encourage any man confronted by "Gender Dysphoria" to be extremely cautious and unforgiving in his exploration of the self.


Really? I can't think of a adult single male i know that i would even remotely consider having a fragile gender identity. Even me. Ignoring the denial and looking back, i've known since adolescence.



Protect yourself and do the hard painful work to be absolutely sure. This is especially true for those considering this late in life because it is very unlikely you will pass and often this results in imposed isolation at a time when a person can ill afford it.

I pass 100% this I have no doubt but I also have no doubt that the years living as a male left there mark on me and other women experience me as "different from them" Many assume I'm a lesbian even though I have zero interest in women sexually. I have a hint of masculine energy in small ways like my sense of humor and my logical yet emotional way of thinking.

Living as a male shaped me in ways that are so much a part of me that I do not see it but others do even if it is only on a feeling subconscious level

Now imagine someone in their forties/fifties or older transitioning. This is fine if you are sure you can live with others accepting you has a woman because that is how you identify and they accept this but experiencing you as a man.

Be ruthlessly realistic if you walk down this path or you are setting yourself up for serious heartache.

And than there are the health risks of hormones that you take for the rest of your life.

amen.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I suppose it would all depend on who's asking and why.

LOL, see ..... the ever elusive CD/TG.

[Rianna Humble]

Kelly D, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trolling, and answer your earlier question

If someone were seriously asking about Gender Dysphoria there is a lot of scientific study out there. Where you get the ridiculous notion that people who transition refuse to take part in studies is beyond me. We live our lives under the glare of scrutiny.

Kelly J has a point of view that she has based around her personal experiences of growing up transsexual. Unfortunately, IMNSHO she generalises from this to the point that sometimes her basic message gets lost in her speculation.

Nothing of that gives people the right to post in this thread merely to insult people with whom they have nothing in common.

[Kelly DeWinter]

No trolling was meant and I offer a sincere apology if i offended any one. The response to my question

"How would you respond to someone who asks for scientific proof, when members of the community are reluctant to participate in such studies ?"

seemed elusive and I tried to turn it into humor, which fell flat. Again I apologize.

Personally I would whole heartily participate in such studies, For me the whole topic of what is gender is something that if it were better understood would make for a better world not just for me but for society as a whole.

I read in these threads a huge array of opinions on what it means to be transgender everything from "I pass 100%", "I would stand out even among basketball players" and even the dreaded "I got clocked when posts ...." . The OP post from Conway read to me as someone passing judgement on people she doesn't even know

To me life is not about passing or not passing, It's about surrounding myself with people who want to know me for me. Unfortunately life is full of people who want to impose their world view on others just because they think they can.

[Georgette_USA]

Kelly's comments aside. Sometimes a little humour is needed, life doesn't have to be so serious all the time.

I hate taking some of these surveys as they assume all TG/TS have problems. They never seem to want to hear of the successes. Took one recently and ask about work situations, I am retired so hard to comment correctly.
Took that very long one from NCTE (I think), and talked with Mara Keisling about that.

I think some (older/longer) have just went on with life, and have no access to these studies, or bother to do them. The surveys have no way to reach those people.
I know from myself and my partner after transition, we just went on with life, and never saw any requests.

[Megan G]

To build on what Georgette said, there are also those of us that have had little to no contact with the trans community so the chances of a survey or study making its way to us is slim to none...

Up until a few months ago I had never met another trans person, I have never been to a pride parade, and have had no contact with the local LGBT community or people within it.

I have nothing against those organizations or the great people in it, I just went on with life as I transitioned, that was very important to me.

As for the question what would I say when someone asks for scientific proof..... to be honest I would tell them to look it up online and that's as far as it would go as I don't talk about trans issues in my personal life.... I keep my medical history private.

[jentay1367]

My point as to why it would be important as to whom may be asking was that many that want scientific empirical proof are often atodds with my posigion and looking for any way they can to discredit me, my life, my world and my existence..........and frankly? those people can go to hell.

[Nicole Erin]

It is a good thing we have people like Lynn Conway out there to help others decide how they should live their own lives.
All this time I have been relying on Alex Jones to help me live mine. I can never find anything to go with the tin foil hat and everyone keeps laughing at me for wearing it.

Had I known a true expert on GID like Conway existed, I would have been taking her advice long ago. She made a lovely transition. Now all she needs is an oral surgeon to help her with those horse teeth.

I wonder if she has anything to say about people like me who were born male but live as a woman ONLY because I like using the women's restroom at Target? I mean if they revoked that, I would have no reason to keep living like a woman.

[Teresa]

Peggy,
I can't see underachievers having the staying power to transition, why would they think it's going to be an easier life, I think it's a load of crap
Besides in the UK they wouldn't get very far in the process if they went the NHS route .

For any member of the TG community to dress confidently enough to go out in public takes some courage to transition takes a whole lot more.

Do any other members know of any hangers on ? I'm sure to most insecure people the whole situation would be too daunting to go near.

I'm sure any underachievers if the are CDers are going to remain buried deeply in the closet.

[LeaP]

Lynn Conway's comments remind me of any number of people I've come across - like Lynn - mostly in support group meetings. They are ... odd. Marginal. Some disturbed. Some sad cases. Some frankly, whacked. With one or two exceptions, it hasn't occurred to me to question their legitimacy. I don't necessarily expect that a trans person present normal ... too much trauma for many. Still, I think questioning their ability to cope with transition is fair.

[jentay1367]

Lynn is very binary. Very, very binary. She relates as a transsexual woman with heterosexual proclivities. She's pretty old school in the sense that if you don't want to follow the role model of the ts woman that has a BA, Vaginoplasty and seeks a heterosexual relationship, you then probably fall into some psychosexual category that borders on perversion or delusion or both. Pretty fixed and pretty old school. But a POV I've found other Transsexual women secretly share and keep to themselves as it's not really politically correct under the present "umbrella". She seems to get to express it freely because she's an M.D. and she's willing to arduously call you out publicly if you question her perspective. This is a big pool with lots of opinions of which hers is one and nothing more. But as I stated, if you publicly call her out, it won't be left unanswered.

[Georgette_USA]

I guess Nicole Erin is taking over the "tongue in cheek" duty.
Who is this "Alex Jones" person, all I could find is some radio guy.

I have looked at pretty much all of "Lynn Conway"'s work. There are some interesting ideas and stats. Yes she does espouse an older TS world ideas.
Like her I am an older long time and very binary, but am anything but limited to Heterosexual. I am very old school on all this, but I am learning to see all the new ideas, and coming to terms with all. I do know of others that share the old ideas, some keep private others express those ideas.

And like LeaP I have seen quite a few in support groups, that may never transition. They have a lot of trauma with all that transition will entail.

[LeaP]

Lynn Conway has an MSEE. She is not a physician.

[KellyJameson]

Here is Blair White https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnQbgShb6r8

& Theryn Meyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDcB0-Gj_L8

Their thoughts may be relevant to this thread. I personally believe being transsexual is biologically based and that it is an expression of a sexual binary as being intersexed so falls between the binary and science simply allows the person to correct an intersex condition.

It has nothing to do with identity but identity makes the person aware of their intersexuality.

The identity is a manifestation of their intersexuality and begins during the early years when gender identity wrapped up in the search for identity as a whole, asserts itself. Who am I , What am I, What am I not, ect...

That means you cannot wake up one day and become a transsexual. It was always there and if it was not than you are not a transsexual.

[LeaP]

Kelly, I agree that the condition is intersex. However, the internal sense of sex, which is what we're really talking about, is a function of neural development, primarily (though not exclusively) pre-natal. That sense is fundamental and not a manifestation per se of intersexuality, which is merely a description for mixed sexually dimorphic physical characteristics.

It is obvious to me that the sense of sex may be masked, suppressed, or corrupted. I suppose you could regard these higher-conscious conceptions of one's sex as manifestations of realized intersexuality, but the more interesting question is whether the fundamental sense of sex is always binary. I think the answer is no, but that it seems to be extremely rare. The vast majority of intersex people as currently defined are firmly binary. Of all populations, this one should be otherwise expected to display the greatest occurrence of non-binary identities - but they don't. That claim goes to the "TG", the genderqueer. To my thinking, that has all the hallmarks of a different condition.

[Nicole Erin]

The important thing here is you should not live your life according to what someone else thinks you are or are not.
Since there is no definite test to say if someone is TS or not, then how the hell can some schmuck like Lynn Conway know who is or isn't?

Too often there are Tg out there who are trying to determine who are the "true" ones and who are not.

Here is a fact -
Do you know the main difference between some full time passable TS and a non-passing TS who has to travel out of town once in a while just to dress up and enjoy the afternoon?
Money and/or circumstance.

Yet, some of the ones who are further along or get to live it more tend to look down on the less passable or part time ones. Myself, I am full time and somewhat passable, I guess. If not, at least people are nice enough to go along with the act. This doesn't make me any better than someone who cannot do this 24/7. My circumstances are just different.

Some might think that one would think they are TS because of some other mental disorder. Maybe, maybe not but get this -
One thing some people say is they would have killed themselves if they could not live in their "appropriate" gender. That is a mark of good mental health, being willing to give up your ONE life on this earth if you cannot live a certain way.

The whole "woman or man" thing is but an act anyways. Sex is biological and does not change but you CAN change how you act and present. Most important here though - no one else but you can decide which you want to act like and present the outward appearance of. Even if people "know", so what?

[Nikki.]

money, circumstance or a favorable roll of the genetic dice...

[Mirya]

The important thing here is you should not live your life according to what someone else thinks you are or are not.

I agree with you on this point.


Here is a fact -
Do you know the main difference between some full time passable TS and a non-passing TS who has to travel out of town once in a while just to dress up and enjoy the afternoon?
Money and/or circumstance.

But I have to disagree with you here. That's your opinion, not a fact. Actually, on these forums, the official definition of a transsexual (TS) (https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?233034-TS-Forum-definitions) is: "An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite." So by definition, someone who has to travel out of town to dress up is not a 'non-passing TS'. In fact they are not a TS at all (again, according to this forum's definition of a TS).

[rachael.davis]

Anecdotal - About ten years ago I was presenting male, working as a consultant (financial service operations), and massively in denial. I would pass a fairly sad person during my commute into Jersey City fairly frequently - She was sloppy overweight, usually needed a shave, wore male trousers, and a band T shirt, had multi pierced ears with large hoops in at least two of the piercings, and an elaborate handbag - I'm sorry to say that my judgement over whatever she was doing delayed my acknowledging that I needed to transition for several years.
Yes there are "underachievers", not everyone gets good marks, has the opportunity to get a good education, has "good bones" in their face - I guess I could go on for a while, but they're desperate enough to be out there at whatever level of transition their social, economic, and personal resources permit, and sadly they may be what a large portion of the population thinks "transgender" looks like.
I was in San Diego last week with a dear GG friend, and her husband, I got to be me 24/7 and don't see retreating very far backwards being possible, my two personal bests were using a ladies room (rather than looking around desperately for the "family rest room"), and being on a tall ship (the California) sail for three hours - the only space for a break and run involved swimming. I will admit that I was terrified, I guess I froze up at some point and she said "you're already wearing your big girl panties, start acting like it.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that yes there are some people who are marginal who are transgender, there are some people who are having mental health issues who are transgender, there are some people who have had "good" male lives who finally throw in the towel and admit they are transgender - it kind of sounds like a normal cross section of humanity in the United States in 2017.

[jentay1367]

and sadly they may be what a large portion of the population thinks "transgender" looks like.


The general assumption is that on one level or another, we are mentally ill. The people that don't think this way are the ones that are lucky enough to know one of us and have the opportunity to interact with us on a day to day basis. And of course, this is no guarantee of their elucidation either. The most unfortunate thing about or community, is that were like the guy wearing a rug or a woman wearing a wig, the only one's you'll ever notice are the ones that look circumspect. The other rug and wig wearers scoot through their world seamlessly. Those unfortunate enough to have a difficult time passing are the spokeswomen for all of us. The only problem with this is that good, bad or indifferent, a very narrow part of the greater whole represents us all. So often times the marginalized in the streets that may or may not be sane, represent us on a level that does us no good simply because they are not only generally easily clocked, but they actually draw attention to themselves with co morbid issues. No one looks at Janet Mock and thinks, there's an actualized human that happens to be trans, they see her and say, there's a beautiful woman and it does nothing to serve our community. That is why I love seeing the people who really pass well vocally advocating for us. I think it's brave and very altruistic of them. We need more of it. I'm always impressed when I meet that archetypal TS woman and thank them profusely for what they do. That behavior raises all ships.
I will also say just as an aside for honesty's sake, if I happen to get to the unclockable stage, I will not be amongst those women. I've no desire to be a trans advocate. I just want to live my life as the woman I was born to be. So I'm part of the problem, not the cure. Our divisive community for the most part makes me think of an old "Pogo" quote that goes...."we have seen the enemy and she is us". Meaning of course that we're our own worst enemies. It is what it is of course and I understand it, but it really does slow us down for being understood by the public at large. We are our own road blocks and walls. Often our individual agenda is quite at odds with the TS Community at large.
It's the strange dichotomy we all live with every day.

[Mirya]

The general assumption is that on one level or another, we are mentally ill.

Yes, it's unfortunate that even the World Health Organization (WHO) still classifies being transgender as a mental illness. Hopefully that will change next year, but for now the haters can still accuse us of having a mental disorder without being entirely incorrect.

[Amelie]

Some of what Lynn Conway says can be applied to me and my life, I use to be very dependent on men. I just don't have the ability to put my thoughts into words cause my brain isn't working anymore. But don't matter what she says, she can't and others can't stop me being a woman.

[Pat]

Yes, it's unfortunate that even the World Health Organization (WHO) still classifies being transgender as a mental illness.

My understanding is that the latest ICD (ICD-11) from WHO will change the classification. It's a matter of waiting out the publishing cycle not a matter of them deciding what they're going to do.

[Nicole Erin]

Yes, it's unfortunate that even the World Health Organization (WHO) still classifies being transgender as a mental illness. Hopefully that will change next year, but for now the haters can still accuse us of having a mental disorder without being entirely incorrect.

See, this has been going on for some time. This or that book or organization classifies Ts as a mental illness. But "next year" that will change, every year they say that, since at least Y2K (that I remember). Here are a couple things to consider -

People that deal with mental health think EVERYone has some kind of "condition". Alcoholic, A.D.D., bipolar, this or that syndrome... Of course with pills and/or therapy, they can "fix" that. That is why so many kids are labeled as "autistic" or one of the synonyms (they keep changing it for some reason, probably to make more money off unknowing parents)
Kind of for the same reason that your mechanic WILL find something wrong with your perfectly fine car, or how some ungodly percentage of the US is considered "obese". Once again, money grubbing scam.

OK so how is it a good thing that they consider TG a mental illness? Is there a chance that insurance MIGHT cover cost of some kind of treatment like HRT or whatever? (shrug) might be something good.

BUT - even if Tg is considered a mental illness, it is not like there is some stigma these days. It isn't like the 1950's where LGBT were to be avoided cause we were some kind of monsters.
Nope, today it is just one more thing to add to their list. Depression, bipolar, ADD... everyone is a mess supposedly. Just all part of society...

Even the hipsters are considered a normal part of society. As weird as they are, at least they caused the vinyl revival.

[jentay1367]

Even the hipsters are considered a normal part of society. As weird as they are, at least they caused the vinyl revival.

Dayam Girl! Leave them poor hipsters alone. They keep the haters off our back to some extent by keeping their hatin' butts busy railing at their total groovynessishness.:jumping:

[Georgette_USA]

OK so how is it a good thing that they consider TG a mental illness? Is there a chance that insurance MIGHT cover cost of some kind of treatment like HRT or whatever? (shrug) might be something good.


Actually back in the 70s, I guess for me it was good that it was considered a mental illness. After my SRS my company insurance policy covered the costs of said surgery by 50% on the psychiatric side of the policy. After SRS my HRT and other doctor costs were than able to be paid as for any other woman.

Is this good or bad, but it did save me some money.