Life in a truly free society

[Paula2]

Seeing as I totally missed my point in the last thread...

How many of you would "dress in femme" if we truly lived in a "blind society" ??? No stigma attached!!!

What can we do together to make that happen???

[Tama]

to the 1st question- I would dress as I felt like or had the need to. If I were doing nasty farm chores there wouldn't be a whole lot of fashion to be of use. Blind society or not, I'd simply do whatever I felt like doing..probably more so with a "blind" society but still, the needs of the situation shall dictate what I'll be wearing no matter what.
as to question #2- I have no idea what we may do to change anything. I suppose just keep doing what we do, and help others that have the desire to go do it as well..the very reasons we have this forum.
We are a minority so, unless that should radically change things will move slowly.

[Leslie Mary S]

As Paula said, it is what I had to do that would determine how I dress.
Many of my GG friends dress male when they have chores to do that require flexing, lifting, or a dusty/dirty enviroment. But let them get dressed to go out on the town, they go back to the full female look.
I guess I too would do that.
What can we do to change things?
Well trying to force feed the public with a fire hose is not the answer. the slow nut sneaky "a little change at a time" will be more successful.
Also the side conversation that "humans are one of the species were the females are more glamours than the males" might help.

[Fiona123]

#1 I would
#2 transphobia, homophobia and misogyny all come from a patriarchal culture that promotes toxic masculinity. That's what we need to change.

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To be free

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To be free

[Tracii G]

I don't see the value in discussing a fictional situation.
A blind society is never going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it.
This line of thinking is just as bad as the argument that women can wear men's clothes and society doesn't care but men can't wear womens clothes.
@ Fiona .......really? thats just silly.

[Teresa]

Paula,
Simple answer just go out and do it !

Most of what we fear is locked in our own heads, society doesn't need to be blind, they are mostly happy getting on with their own lives to worry too much how a guy they just passed was dressed. I discovered this last weekend, initially when I passed people dressed they didn't appear to be making eye contact, but how much would they be making eye contact if I was in drab, when it came down to it there wasn't much difference. I walked past every age group, some parents with children, not a single double take. The only time I did get a reaction was in male mode when I was sitting at the leisure complex reception, I'd forgotten to take nail polish remover and a gym superviser noticed saying ," Love the nails !"
Sitting dressed in a crowded breakfast room hardly raised an eyebrow.

My sticking point to totally openly dressing is the DADT situation with my wife, the problem is she isn't blind and really doesn't want to see it.

[sometimes_miss]

What can we do together to make that happen???
THERE it is. The assumption that it's my responsibility to be out on the front lines, educating the world about crossdressing, trying to force other people to come around to accepting us. After Caitlyn, anyone who wants to know about us already does. The rest would all rather that we all dropped dead, and are perfectly willing to help us along the way in that direction.

Being a crossdresser is not primarily what I am, yet if I come out, it will be what most people think about first when they think of me.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
Do you truly believe that? I can't think anyone would rather see me dead than crossdress , if that was seriously the case I wouldn't set a foot outside my door dressed .

I can't remember all your background but have you actually been out dressed ? It isn't anything like you describe .

[Ressie]

What I'm getting from Paula2 is that she would like to see all part time CDs become full time CDs - dressing publicly 24/7. Paula, if we all looked as good as you do in your avatar, that would be awesome!

Some of us are doing what we can to make that happen by going out dressed often. But that isn't for everyone. There are actually more important things in my life (for me).

[Fiona123]

I stand by my post. Toxic masculinity and our patriarchal culture are fundamental issues that hold us all back.

[Lisa85]

all come from a patriarchal culture that promotes toxic masculinity.


Nonsense. Adding a negative label to something does not make an argument valid. I could just as strongly argue that public education system promotes toxic behavior towards others. If not all members of society can speak freely on campus how can we say that we should be free to express our desire to dress free of criticism.

What is to prevent someone with a public press pass from turning on a dime and labeling whatever as toxic?

Maybe this thread needs a new focus: not so much on what others are doing/saying/publishing that may harm us to what are we and our close ones doing to feel freer in the years of life we have. We can't change the world, but we can take positive steps to change our life with a tiny circle so it's better.

[Stacy Darling]

#1 I'd be wearing the same shirt and pashmina, but with my matching skirt (which is in my closet at present)!

#2 I can keep bending the dress "rules", as I love to do!

#3 Well put Fiona!

Stacy!

[deebra]

Paula 2 great post and questions. As Tami said, men's loose overalls for dirty work and female for when you want to. Wouldn't that be good for both genders (it's that way now for women, why not equality for men/CD's)? A blind society on clothing would be great. Maybe it's closer than we think, just dress, get out and do it.

What can we do to make that happen; Dressing in one or more items of female clothing and going out in public and being seen and acceptance will come. For example if the same checker in WalMart sees you dressed each time you come through her line she will just get use to it and no big deal same with everyone else that sees you on a regular basis. And yes, I did this yesterday.

[Fiona123]

I believe we can and should change the world and can and should change our selves at the same time.

[Alyssa Lane]

Just look at the reply recently to the male romper. Even though coveralls have been around for years. Its getting to the point now where males have been shown in public with more clothing options then we traditionally have had with pants, tshirts and suits.

[Gillian Gigs]

A "blind society" may never happen, but we can still do our part to change things.
1. Start to treat others the way you wish to be treated.
2. Stand up for the rights of others.
3. Remember it is not just about you.
4. Maybe more of us should start to dress as we truely desire.

[suzanne]

What can we do to make that happen?

Get out of the house in your best outfit. Get known. Studies have shown that the best predictor of whether a person accepts/tolerates a different demographic group is whether they know someone from that group personally. To many muggles, the only crossdresssers they are aware of are the over-the-top drag queens on RuPauls Drag Race. Not my style and also not what seems to be the preferred mode of the members of this forum. I think it's a bit too In Your Face for most people in the general public.

I think we need to select an outfit that's appropriate for everyday activities, then go out and act normally. Imagine how a GG in your city dresses and carries herself for a trip to the mall, then try that. So, no evening gowns or little black cocktail dresses to the grocery store. Worry less about passing and more about showing the world that we're not freaks, just regular people.

Several years ago, the gay community strongly encouraged, and unfortunately, sometimes even forced, their people to come out of the closet. Suddenly, straight people who thought they didn't know someone who was gay realized that Bob down the street or Susan at the office were gay and they're okay people. It became easier to see them as real people, not their stereotypes. Thanks to that effort, there is better anti discrimination legislation and even gay marriage. If we get out in greater numbers, acceptance will improve for us and it won't be as difficult because the hardest part of the job has already been done.

[Tracii G]

I believe we can and should change the world and can and should change our selves at the same time.

Fiona judging by this post you are 20 something is this correct? College student maybe?
Back in the 60's I was a hippy and deep in the hippy culture (think communes and free love)I felt we as a group could change the world.
I had those same pie in the sky ideals but as I grew up I learned that wasn't going to happen and no matter what I did or how many protests I went to the world is going to go its own way and my ideals didn't mean much.
This whole sham and mass talking points about patriarchy misogyny,homophobia,transphobia is always going to be there and there is nothing we can do about it.
We can however work in our "group" of people we come in contact with most often and show them by "our "actions that trans people are just like everyone else in society.
Treat others with respect and kindness and most of the time thats what you get back from them.
Jumping up in their face and calling them names and forcing them to accept you or your beliefs isn't the way to get it done.

[Jeri Ann]

I stand by my post. Toxic masculinity and our patriarchal culture are fundamental issues that hold us all back.

Fiona, it seems that it may not be toxic masculinity and a patriarchal culture outside your home that holds you back but a culture inside your home, based on this post you made from another thread. Just sayin'.

"As a closeted/dadt gal, being caught means being seen en femme by my wife. Its never happened. I don't think dressing is wrong but my wife has a problem with it. Therein is the issue."

[Fiona123]

Fair point.

[Dana44]

i do go out, but like today when I went in to workout. There were several masculine men clean and jerking heavy weights and other stuff. Me I am pretty girly and the girls talk to me mostly. So they will always be that way. I don't quite know what they think of me but they did work with me. I just go about my business and had no problems being a girl out and about. But I try to keep it safe. SO, many people have fear when they are out. But I don't and like I said I try to keep it safe, like restaurants or the theater or out shopping..

[StephanieM]

If you want to live in a free society then you must put up with those who aren't cool with what we do.
The price of freedom is anyone can believe what they want and as long as they aren't doing any physical harm they have the right to think what they want. The flip side is we too are free to do what we want, and to believe what we want. I wish we could have a more open society where people could disagree with each other without hating each other, but we have a long way to go to get to that point.

[Vickie_CDTV]

In a truly free society, people would be able to believe in and say things others would find offensive, including those who oppose crossdressing and transgenderism in general. You can't have a truly free society and a society where people are not offended. I can choose to be who I am, and others are free to disagree, provided they do not harm me they have a right to do so.

[Rachel05]

Today I would have gone out fully dressed as opposed to underdressed, I have no courage to go out fully dressed and I definitely would not pass, some of the ladies on here look more like ladies that ladies do, me I look like a man in a dress

A very happy man in a dress it has to be said, so if there was no stigma then today I would have been a very happy man in a dress out for a nice walk, but I was a very happy underdressed man, very very happy and felt nice and relaxed

Change will come, it is funny that my estranged wife is so accommodating of pretty much anything other than my cross dressing, but change will be slow in my view so for now I do what I do and I love how I feel

[Tracii G]

Rachel getting past the whole "passing" thing is when CDing takes on a whole new light.
The reality is maybe 1% of CDers on this site actually "pass" but passing doesn't matter because its you being comfy in who you are.
If you exude confidence while you are out and about people see that and passing doesn't matter as much.

[Aunt Kelly]

Jeri Ann and Tracii have both hit on something that many of us grapple with. For some of us, the stress (for lack of a better term) that is induced in those close to us (family), or important to us (employers, clients), by our expression of femininity is a thing that matters. And it should, because those people and their feelings matter. For all too many of us, the "feelings" of everyone else matter as well. A while back, I told the forum about the morning that Jeri Ann and I spent in the nail salon, and how one GG customer appeared to be somewhat aggrieved by my presence. At that moment, I had a choice. I could have let that woman's scowl spoil my day. Let's face it, all gender identity complications aside, the feeling you get from a look like that is never nice, but she didn't know me, didn't employ me, didn't matter. So instead of cringing, I chose to try and bring some light into the situation. With suitable chagrin, I'll point out that it didn't work, but that's not the point. The point is that through simply recognizing that her negative feelings didn't have to affect me, I was empowered to take control and try to affect her in a positive way. BTW, both Kandi and Jeri Ann have shared that it is a smile that will make the difference, and I thank them again for sharing that.

We do live in a free society. There's not law against what we do. Most people don't care or are mildly amused by the "guy in a dress". They don't matter. Those who might act forcefully to having their delicate sensibilities assaulted by a male presenting a feminine appearance are few enough that I choose to ignore them as statistically insignificant. Yes, the numbers change depending on when and where you are, but so does the threat of random acts of violence, robbery, automobile collision, and being struck by lightening. I choose regularly to ignore all those "threats", regardless of what I'm wearing.

[Jodie_Lynn]

This may seem a bit off topic, but I feel it relates.

"I am offended"

3 small words that have mutated into a monstrous idea and sentiment that can have a tremendous outcome for others. Lets see what "offend" means.

Definition of offend
intransitive verb
1
a :* to transgress (see transgress transitive 1) the moral or divine law :* sin
if it be a sin to covet honor, I am the most offending soul alive — William Shakespeare
b :* to violate a law or rule :* do wrong offend against the law
2
a :* to cause difficulty, discomfort, or injury; took off his shoe and removed the offending pebble
b :* to cause dislike, anger, or vexation; thoughtless words that offend needlessly
transitive verb
1
a :* violate, transgress
a contract not offending a statute … might still be in restraint of trade — C. A. Cooke
b :* to cause pain to :* hurt; tasteless billboards that offend the eye
2
obsolete :* to cause to sin or fall
3
:* to cause (a person or group) to feel hurt, angry, or upset by something said or done ; was offended by their language She carefully worded her comments so as not to offend anyone.

I have included all definitions of the word, and highlighted what I feel are the two that best fit our current climate of self-victimization.

"I am offended" is a phrase that has come to be used anytime someone doesn't like what another is doing/saying/wearing. Its mere utterance causes folk to do a double take & reexamine what the "offensive" behavior is. In my not so humble opinion, I would venture to guess that the majority of offensable actions are merely someone's attempt to control what others can and cannot do.

Yes, there ARE offenses in the world, and serious ones too, but most of the "offenses" that I see, are pure horseshyte.

[Transfem Megyn]

This is something I think about often. For me personally, my kids are the only reason that I don't dress however I want full-time. They're adolescent aged, and it's a difficult enough time to get through, without having a dad how walks around town in a skirt and heels.

I'm new here so none of you know my story (maybe if I feel ambitious, I'll post it sometime), but I don't want to pass as female, I just enjoy wearing "women's clothes". It bother's me that we even call them that! Clothes don't have gender! Women can (and do) wear whatever they want. They aren't judged or ridiculed for it... nobody even gives it a second thought. Yet it wasn't until sometime in the mid 1930's that Vogue magazine first published a picture of a woman in pants. I know that wasn't yesterday, but it wasn't that long ago either.

I think it's going to be more of a challenge for society to accept those of us who were AMAB wearing clothes that have been traditionally worn by those who were AFAB. I think a lot of it has to do with the fragility of masculinity, along with sexism and misogyny.

I could talk about this stuff for hours, but don't want to bore anyone. :D

Megyn

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What can we do to make that happen?

Get out of the house in your best outfit. Get known. Studies have shown that the best predictor of whether a person accepts/tolerates a different demographic group is whether they know someone from that group personally. To many muggles, the only crossdresssers they are aware of are the over-the-top drag queens on RuPauls Drag Race. Not my style and also not what seems to be the preferred mode of the members of this forum. I think it's a bit too In Your Face for most people in the general public.

I think we need to select an outfit that's appropriate for everyday activities, then go out and act normally. Imagine how a GG in your city dresses and carries herself for a trip to the mall, then try that. So, no evening gowns or little black cocktail dresses to the grocery store. Worry less about passing and more about showing the world that we're not freaks, just regular people.

Several years ago, the gay community strongly encouraged, and unfortunately, sometimes even forced, their people to come out of the closet. Suddenly, straight people who thought they didn't know someone who was gay realized that Bob down the street or Susan at the office were gay and they're okay people. It became easier to see them as real people, not their stereotypes. Thanks to that effort, there is better anti discrimination legislation and even gay marriage. If we get out in greater numbers, acceptance will improve for us and it won't be as difficult because the hardest part of the job has already been done.

This!

I completely agree with you Suzanne. For me it's not about forcing my choices on anyone. To be honest, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. It's not a big deal... it's just clothes! Nobody confers with me on their fashion choices, why should I confer with them? I don't get offended at my neighbor across the street because I never see him without his "uniform" on... guinea-tee and a baseball hat. Whatever... he obviously likes it, more power to him.

All that being said, I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite. Like I said earlier, I don't dress how I want to in public because I'm trying to protect my kids from ridicule and alienation. I don't know... I'm very conflicted about a lot of this stuff. I'm hoping that being around like-minded people will help me work through some of this stuff.

[Tracii G]

The whole I am offended thing going on now is so silly and utter BS there I said it.
OK you or I get offended well so what?
This makes my point

https://youtu.be/ceS_jkKjIgo

[Teresa]

Megyn,
Sometime ago I posted a thread about there never being a right time to come out and tell the family including kids .

I see it from your angle but also from burdening your problem on them , in their teens they have enough to contend with. My kids were both in their thirties when I told them, both my son and daughter are OK about it even to the point of telling their married partners. No they aren't offended , even when we came to a near separation , I'd explained it well enough. The point I often make is I'm not out to them 100% , because they haven't seen me dressed. That makes a big difference when we talk about being out to people, they do know I go out socially so obviously they know many people have seen me .

As for clothes having gender, at times that makes me smile, when you search on Ebay or visit a retail shop , they don't usually say dresses or skirts but very often put "ladies " in front of the description , most people know what majority are going to wear them. Maybe they will stop saying it when they realise more of the customer reviews are coming from CDing men .

[Transfem Megyn]

Thanks for the comments Teresa, I appreciate them.

I don't go out of my way to necessarily hide it from my kids, but they've never seen me dressed. I should preface that by saying that I don't think I "dress" like it seems like a lot of people here do. I just enjoy wearing "women's" clothing... specifically skirts, heels, and tights. I love women's jeans too, but can't stand that the pockets are so small, so I usually stay away from them. I've never worn a wig, done makeup, painted my nails, or anything like that... I only shave my face a couple of time a week, so half the time I'm sporting a major five o'clock shadow. The odd thing is that I regularly shave my legs and other body hair... I don't know... I guess I'm a weirdo! :) I just like the clothes, and don't mind being seen as a "guy" in "women's clothes". Anyway, like I was saying, I don't go out of my way to hide anything from my kids. My 12 year old daughter knows I shave my legs, etc. She busts me about it, but it doesn't phase her at all. I guess she grew up in the age of Caitlyn, so it doesn't seem that unusual. I also have several skirts and a few pairs of heels in my closet that are just sitting there for anyone who opens it to see... Whatever. I'm more concerned with other people in town and their reactions. It's hard enough going through puberty without having to be known as the kid who's dad is a faggot (or whatever else closed-minded people would think of me). I just don't want my kids to have to suffer for my "quirkiness". :)

This is going to sound strange, but the only person who has seen me dressed is my ex-wife. We're still good friends, and a lot of this stuff came back into my life after we divorced. She's actually pretty cool with it. She doesn't understand it, but she doesn't have to. To be honest, I don't know if I understand it either. We still own our marital house together, and although she relocated several states away, she spends a good portion of time here, so she can see the kids. I work from home, and when she's here, she often does too. Since my time to dress is when the kids are at school, when she does work from here, she gets to see me dressed. It's crazy... she's the one wearing sweat pants or jeans, and I'm sitting here in a skirt and heels. :) Once in a while she has to go into the office for a board meeting and there's been more than one occasion when she's had to borrow a pair of tights from me. Ha! :D It's a crazy world! You can't make this stuff up. :)

[Beverley Sims]

I would as I wish to present as a woman.

[Leslie Mary S]

I find when you react to something someone else has said to truly offend you, you are falling into their trap. I truly feel that if I ignore the insult or offense I am taking away the public bite of what they say.
If my mind is totally up to the task ,rarely, I try to switch the insult/offense around so that they become the one being insulated/offend. It shows their ignorance/bullying etc.
The reason I rarely use this last tactic is two fold. My mind is slow, they might get so offended that they try to use physical contact/force to correct what I have wrecked upon them.
A real lady tries her best to avoid physical contact/violence. A true lady figures out how to get both society and laws to strengthen her points.

[Rachel05]

Rachel getting past the whole "passing" thing is when CDing takes on a whole new light.
The reality is maybe 1% of CDers on this site actually "pass" but passing doesn't matter because its you being comfy in who you are.
If you exude confidence while you are out and about people see that and passing doesn't matter as much.

I guess you are right in what you say because when I started to underdress I was scared stupid that someone would notice bra straps or something feminine showing and it used to freak me out, now I just do it, don't worry about it and don't actually care if someone did notice.

I suppose with time my confidence will move on and I will become one of the 99% that don't pass but feel great being me and I think you are right, it is about confidence