Are we feminists?

[Fiona123]

In a different thread I drew a connection between transphobia, homophobia, misogyny and toxic masculinity on one hand and the difficulty in being out on the other. Some responses were positive, a few less so (that's ok I'm a big girl). Here are my questions? #1 Are we feminists? #2 Should we be?

For me the answers are #1 I try to be; #2 Yes!

[Jodie_Lynn]

It depends on your definition of feminism. Can you elaborate?

[mechamoose]

If you mean 'should we advocate for female rights?', then H. E. double toothpicks yes. We are, do and should.

We here have a special relationship with female identity, yes?

We have the opportunity to just hide behind the testosterone, but we choose another path. Their rights are our rights.

- MM

[Fiona123]

A feminist is one who supports feminism. Feminism (noun) is the
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

[mechamoose]

Since I view 'sex' as a lottery ticket, and I think everyone should have same rights, then yes. Everyone should have the same rights, regardless of chromosomal lottery tickets.

If that means 'feminism', then so be it. I'm for *human* rights, which should not be different depending on if you have an 'innie' or an 'outie'.

- MM

[char GG]

Just my opinion, but I would tend to advocate for "human rights". To group the population into segments just erodes society overall. It is getting out of control when so many people need a particular "label" and want to be treated according to that "label".

[Jodie_Lynn]

Equal rights, regardless of gender, colour, religion, sexual orientation, physical appearance,or age - I'm all for it!

Special preference because you (general pronoun, not personal) feel that your 'group' deserves recompense, or to "punish" the group that you feel has wronged you, my answer is NO.

Should we, as CD/TG, be feminists? I believe we should be humanists. Treat others as we wish to be treated.

[Kayla Marie]

Totally agree Jodie.

[Nikki A.]

I would say that most of us probably are feminists, if not publicly, but in practice. We want equality and acceptance, no matter how we dress and isn't that what the feminists want also?
I'd say it'd be awful hard being a male chauvinist while wearing a dress, hose, heels and makeup.

[Micki_Finn]

For myself, I am absolutely a feminist. Not all of us are though. I've seen plenty of misogyny, either subtle or overt, among cd/trans people, even on this forum.

[Gillian Gigs]

Equal rights, regardless of gender, colour, religion, sexual orientation, physical appearance,or age - I'm all for it!

Special preference because you (general pronoun, not personal) feel that your 'group' deserves recompense, or to "punish" the group that you feel has wronged you, my answer is NO.

Should we, as CD/TG, be feminists? I believe we should be humanists. Treat others as we wish to be treated.

Well said, equal rights, regardless of who we are on the inside, or the outside!

[Lana Mae]

I agree with Jodie! Hugs Lana Mae

[Fiona123]

The posts about the need to favor human rights are well stated. I don't mean to elevate women's rights over others. I do believe though that crossdressers, trans women, gender fluid people, really anyone on the transgender spectrum, regardless of the label, fundamentally have the same struggle as women vs. patriarchy

[Allison Chaynes]

Just my opinion, but I would tend to advocate for "human rights". To group the population into segments just erodes society overall. It is getting out of control when so many people need a particular "label" and want to be treated according to that "label".

I could not have said it better.

[Jodie_Lynn]

In a sense, one could say that the struggles of CD/TG/TS are more difficult than cis-women, especially so for MtF.

Please GG's, I am NOT saying that the struggle for equality is a cake walk by any means! Nor am I elevating "us" over "you"!!!!!

I am pointing out though, that the CD/TG/TS (there has GOT to be an easier way to express that!) community faces additional challenges and hurdles on the road to acceptance and equality.

For example, I don't think many cis-women have been followed around by an SA because they are shopping in the men's section, nor given the 'eye' by a cashier for purchasing men's underwear, socks or any other male garment. Nor, in the last 40+ years, has a woman heard a passerby exclaim: "Did you see that woman? She's wearing PANTS!"

In the workplace, a woman may wear what she chooses (as long as it meets company guidelines)and alter her appearance (hair, nails, jewelry) without negative comments, nor receive aspersions about their morality, sexuality, or fitness for the job.

Again, let me emphasis that I am NOT saying women have it easy, far from it! But I am using these as an example that we all have obstacles to overcome to achieve equality, and IMO, far more importantly, acceptance for who we are rather than for what our internal plumbing, appearance or presentation.

[Tracii G]

If you are saying I should be a feminist like those crazy protestors at the womens march then no thanks.
Dressing up like a vagina or wearing a "pussy" hat and screaming I am a nasty woman is not feminism at all.
I do believe in equality for everyone no matter who or what they are but this current incarnation of "feminism" has been co opted by a radical leftist element and isn't really feminism.
When trans people find out I am transgender they assume I am like they are. An all out feminist activist that accuse men of patriarchy,misogyny,male privilege etc.
I am not one of those sheep that jump on the man hater bandwagon because everybody else is doing it I have a mind of my own.
I don't see how a man be a CD,TG can be a feminist when they don't genetically belong to that group.
You may agree with some of the feminist agenda but how many of you really think that way deep deep down in your heart?

[Fiona123]

"I don't see how a man be a CD,TG can be a feminist when they don't genetically belong to that group."

First: I believe gender identity transcends genetics. Second: anyone can be feminist, male, female, lgbt, whatev.

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"... how many of you really think that way deep deep down in your heart"

I do.

[Dana44]

No on the feminist movement. I don't want anything to do with them. They trash men. I like men but i love women. Leave the men alone. So no to that. I like my feminism.

[Tracii G]

You are more than welcome to align yourself with a group that bashes men at every chance and acts like a bunch of spoiled kids.
What you are thinking is feminism is not feminism at all. Sorry to break it to you.
The whole womens march on Washington what good did it do? Not one thing other than make women look petty and irresponsible.
Like a bunch of radical bigoted people that had no respect for themselves..
You think they actually valued trans people there? No they thought of them as guys and not women.
You think they embraced LGBT people? No wrong again
Search you tube for videos and you will find numerous women trans bashing and calling gays fags. Its out there for you to see.

[DIANEF]

I fully support equality for women, and any one else, but if judging by some of the 'feminists' I have seen, I am certainly not one.

[TinaMc]

I am not sure if I can be a feminist, it doesn't sit comfortably with me to label myself as one. I certainly support feminism and I keep myself well informed about the topic. I think we (CDers) kind of owe it to women to at least try to understand and appreciate their situations - we borrow from their identities, I think it's the least we can do.

[Danitgirl1]

My 2 cents
Only people in privileged positions can think that it is not necessary to overthrow privelege and that therefore it is not acceptable to motivate for the advancement of people who have suffered from being disadvantaged by entrenched systematic power telations that previously advantaged some other group...

[franlee]

Tracii G has summed it all up and put it in a positive and accurate narrative. All this is nice to talk about but the TRUTH is still the truth we are men and can not be a true Feminist but you can uphold the ideas and assist in the plight.

[sometimes_miss]

Only people in privileged positions can think that it is not necessary to overthrow privelege and that therefore it is not acceptable to motivate for the advancement of people who have suffered from being disadvantaged by entrenched systematic power telations that previously advantaged some other group...
We don't have either group living in a vacuum. As we all know, each sex has it's advantages. Current feminist woman's groups work hard to even the playing field for SOME inequal situations, but only the ones that help themselves. I don't see any of them protesting their ex husbands going to jail when they lose their jobs, and can no longer afford the lofty alimony and child support payments. Nope, can't have none of that. The whole concept of continuing to financially support a woman 'in the manner to which she has become accustomed' while ignoring that to which the man has become accustomed, is the perfect example. Women get, men pay; is all the feminist agenda seems to be. It's not about equality at all.



A feminist is one who supports feminism. Feminism (noun) is the
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

The problem I have currently, is that the feminist organizations ARE NOT pursuing equality. They're pursuing female>male legislation. So no, I'm no longer supporting feminism. I know it's politically incorrect, but they are not pushing for equality. They are what I refer to as 'cafeteria' feminists, they want all the benefits of being a guy, with none of the negative problems and especially, none of the responsibility.

Not one woman will admit that a female can, on her own, prevent herself from getting pregnant. Not one. Whenever the subject of 'unwanted pregnancy' comes up, it's always on the guy to use 'protection'. Men are held responsible, both financially and morally, for women refusing to take responsibility for themselves. If I have sex and get an STD, it's my fault for not protecting my body. But if a woman has sex and gets pregnant, then it's not her fault for not protecting her body? WTF???
Nope, it's not about equality. Not at all.

When will they pursue equality in the divorce courts, for example. Or how about addressing the fact that more women than men are going to and graduating college? What are they doing about that? How about how primary education is set up to the advantage of girls instead of boys?

Nope, no equality work going on there, or lots of other areas. Current feminists only want SOME things to be equal, while not giving up any of the current advantages.
When they truly work for equality for both sexes, THEN I will support them again. But like most other activist groups, I don't see that happening.

What I see here too often, is guys who want to feel as feminine as they can, and to them, part of being feminine is blaming men for all the bad things in women's lives. And I won't be a part of that.

[StephanieM]

I do believe in equality for everyone no matter who or what they are but this current incarnation of "feminism" has been co opted by a radical leftist element and isn't really feminism.


I agree 100%

[Shely]

This is way over my head (IMHO) Who cares what we (YOU) are. There are too many people trying to force others into categories these days for reasons of their own. (again IMHO).:sad:

[Sometimes Steffi]

Misogyny

I guess what I'm against is men that can't keep it in their pants so to speak, that treat women like pieces of meat.

One of the key arguments of men in favor of the Bathroom Bills is to protect women and girls.

But they really don't think the whole thing through. If the really want to protect women and girls, they should outlaw "girlie clubs" where men who don't crossdress get to ogle girls who undress.

They should beat up all men who catcall to women, and other sexual improprieties.

They should cut the parts off of ugly orange-headed men (and other men of their ilk) who think any crotch is theirs for the grabbing, just because they are rich and powerful.

They should fire men who use their power over women to denigrate them by calling them names, body shaming them, or asking them for favors so they can keep their hard-earned job.

If thinking like this makes me a feminist, then I accept the responsibility and the burden.

[Tracii G]

Men that keep it in their pants? Whats wrong with that?
Treating women like meat OK I get that but same goes for women so they are equal there.
They need to arrest women that cat call guys shouldn't they? equal again on that point.
OK we know you hate orange things and crotch grabbing but you have done that before I'm sure so that comment is a moot point.
Women hold things over men and use men as well so equal there too.
How is that feminist anyway? Shouldn't women be held to the same standards as men? You want equality of the sexes right?

[mechamoose]

As if women never treat men like meat. Some want a 'daddy', some want a 'protector', and some want a 'provider'. The rare few truly want a 'partner'.

It goes both ways. This gender thing is a torsional relationship. A person is a person, and we keep expecting ourselves and that other person to fill a 'role' we have in our head.

How about just seeing the *person*? What if you just had someone who had your back, no matter what?

I'm exceptionally lucky. I have that. If I had a Djinn granting me a wish, I would wish for that level of commitment for everyone.

Rights are rights. We all have hearts and blood and stool. We all have goals and dreams. I don't see why chromosomes interfere with that.

"You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one"- JL

- MM

[DMichele]

I agree with Char -

Just my opinion, but I would tend to advocate for "human rights". To group the population into segments just erodes society overall. It is getting out of control when so many people need a particular "label" and want to be treated according to that "label".

[Vickie_CDTV]

"Some" men see women as pieces of meat... and "some" women see men as wallets with legs. Frankly, I'd love to see some feminists and SJWs condemn the financial use and abuse of men by women for a change. Plenty of men have been lead on, used and financially exploited by women, and yet no one ever talks about how awful that is.

[mechamoose]

Vickie... "wallets with legs" I'm going to borrow that.

Why is this even an option?

Just because a person is blessed by being XX does not mean they are weak.

Women are *not* helpless. They do NOT need to be saved. My wife would rip out your throat and piss on your grave. That is part of why I love her so hard. She is a beast. MY beast.

Feminism? is the angry girl with her boot on your throat not enough?

Feminisim is humanism. We, of all people, should understand that.

-MM

[Teresa]

Fiona,
After reading most of the replies we might all be CDers but in other respects we are all different , some of us maybe feminists but as you also listed other possibilities some of us could be one of those as well.
My wife accuses me of being homophobic, the fact is I'm not, I just can't understand a male to male relationship because I can't to relate to it, I guess that explains why some people just don't get CDing , they can't relate to it.

So when these questions are asked you can never get a definite answer, you drew the conclusion from a related thread whereas other people didn't .

[Tracii G]

Teresa's comment about "not relating to that" is a good point.
As you can see Fiona we are all different and just because we are gay/CD,TG,TS does not mean we all share the liberal agenda with you.
You decided because you are a CD or are TG that you must hop on the feminist band wagon to be part of the club.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Colour me dumb, but what does "SJW" stand for?

[Tracii G]

Social Justice Warrior.

[Fiona123]

You decided because you are a CD or are TG that you must hop on the feminist band wagon to be part of the club.

Tracii: you couldn't be more wrong. I am a feminist because I believe that its the right thing. I am transgender because that's what I am. I have a liberal agenda because I am a liberal.

I knew full well yesterday when I made the initial post that it would yank some chains. I was not disappointed.

[Tracii G]

Feminism as it is today isn't helping women or their cause just look whats going on in this country.
I'm all for equal treatment and everything for everyone women included.
No special things for anyone just equal under the law.
There is a faction in the current "feminist" movement that is dark and very counter productive for women.
They are using womens rights as a platform to push things other than equal treatment of women.
Tell me what positive outcomes for women came from the womens march on Washington?
Yank my chain and ruffle my feathers LOL

[Danitgirl1]

Tracii: you couldn't be more wrong. I am a feminist because I believe that its the right thing. I am transgender because that's what I am. I have a liberal agenda because I am a liberal.

I knew full well yesterday when I made the initial post that it would yank some chains. I was not disappointed.

Preach it sister

[Transfem Megyn]

You are more than welcome to align yourself with a group that bashes men at every chance and acts like a bunch of spoiled kids.
What you are thinking is feminism is not feminism at all. Sorry to break it to you.
The whole womens march on Washington what good did it do? Not one thing other than make women look petty and irresponsible.
Like a bunch of radical bigoted people that had no respect for themselves..
You think they actually valued trans people there? No they thought of them as guys and not women.
You think they embraced LGBT people? No wrong again
Search you tube for videos and you will find numerous women trans bashing and calling gays fags. Its out there for you to see.

I think we have to be careful not to stereotype an entire group of people. There's good and bad people in every group. I definitely consider myself a feminist, and I'm nothing like you're describing. If I don't want to be judged for my choices and how I live my life, I certainly can't paint such a large group of people as those who call themselves feminists with such a broad brush.

[Alice Torn]

I am not a feminist politically, but am all for women, and men, and all having equal rights, and no nation in time immemorial has been better at this time, than the western nations are. I am against politicizing the sexes, for power reasons, though. each woman is an individual, not a political entity, to be used. I do have a feminine side, though, and am a rugged individualist. I do not believe women and men are exactly the same, though. If they really were, we would see women doing roofing, gravedigging, like i did for three years, and feminists applying for these type of jobs. i have yet to see a female up on a steep roof top. And why do not females have to sign up for SELECTIVE SERVICE, in the USA? Common sense is not so common anymore. Just being honest.

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Amen, to this, char GG!

- - - Updated - - -

Amen to what Tracii, and Jodi, and Sometimes Miss wrote. Abraham Lincoln said: "You cannot strengthen the weak, by weakening the strong."

- - - Updated - - -

Amen to what Vickie wrote, too. Men are also very victimized in today's "enlightened" society. . Men have been run through through th e social wringer, and drawn and quartered, AND SOCIALLY HAMSTRUNG. Far more men end their frustrating lives, than women do! Men are money and success objects, or else they "need not apply" for a relationship.

[Tracii G]

Megyn you need to watch who you align yourself with as far as being a feminist because the crowd out there now protesting aren't feminists.
They are mostly women yes but do they actually know who is steering the feminist ship?
The group controlling the message are making it a political game and it doesn't or shouldn't be that way.
I'm not your normal ultra liberal gay person yet I get lumped in with all the other fags so tell me how that is supposed to work?

[Sometimes Steffi]

Tell me what positive outcomes for women came from the women's march on Washington?


It's hard to answer this question without violating the rule about talking politics, but let's just say more women came to the women's march on Washington than people came out for inauguration. We know that's true because of the tweets suggesting that the crowd pics we fake news.

And, I don't think most of the women were feminists anyhow.

[Transfem Megyn]

Megyn you need to watch who you align yourself with as far as being a feminist because the crowd out there now protesting aren't feminists.
They are mostly women yes but do they actually know who is steering the feminist ship?
The group controlling the message are making it a political game and it doesn't or shouldn't be that way.
I'm not your normal ultra liberal gay person yet I get lumped in with all the other fags so tell me how that is supposed to work?


I see your point, and agree with you, but that's exactly my point. Back in the late 80's I got to know a gay couple who were close friends with a mutual friend of mine. They hated the whole Act-Up culture that was prevalent in the gay community back then. They just wanted to be free to live their lives free from persecution. They despised those in the community who were so "out-there" and flamboyant, and thought they were doing more harm than good. They also resented the fact that (like you said), they were getting lumped in with that crowd because they were the ones who were getting all the attention. It's always the out-spoken minority that gets the attention. What I'm trying to say is that for every person out there yelling and screaming, and maybe making an ass out of themselves, there's probably 10 people who are quietly living their lives, yet still part of the same group.

[Megan G]

I was not going to get into this this convo but I gotta know...

How are men being victimized in today's society?

When Brock Turner was only sentenced to 6 months for raping an unconscious woman was he being victimized? How about the guy who raped his sister only to get 4 months...again victimized??

How about that picture of the idiot Trump and a room full of old white men signing an executive order on abortion. Is that equal rights when a room full of men discuss and legislate women's health issues?

I get it, your all men and really don't have any experience on the subject of what it's like to be mansplained or any other number of things that women have to deal with on a daily basis....even now in 2017 women are denied jobs just because we are women. I will never forget sitting in an interview only 12 months ago being lectured about how much I did not want the job because after all "it is a mans world"......😡

[Tracii G]

I have plenty of experience in this subject but I am going to keep my cool.

[Becky Blue]

I read a great definition of the feminist movement, it went something like this 'the point of the feminist movement was to establish men and women as equals. With equal opportunities, equal respect and equal appreciation.' if that the goal then call me a feminist.

[Tracii G]

Becky I'm all for equality of the sexes in the classic sense thats how it should be.
Thats what the 60's feminist movement was all about.Now in 2017 many of the women involved weren't alive to know what the original point of the movement was and they are being manipulated by a group that has a political agenda.

[Beverley Sims]

I don't think I am a feminist, I believe in equality for women and supported those that were not militant back when the movement started.

As Tracii has said, the original reasons for the feminist movement has been clouded over with time.

No we do not need to be feminists, just show fair play and remember that women are of equal intelligence.

[Tracii G]

Right on Beverley.

Now it all has this anarchist/militant tone which is self defeating in most ways.
I watched the march here locally and was appalled at some of the women and how violent their rhetoric was.
Blatant man hating I saw that too and that alone made me not want to get out of my car and go watch longer.
My intent was to attend with a trans friend and possibly help at the LGBT booth.
We both decided being two gay males in this crowd was not a good idea so we left.
It shouldn't be that way at a march and I think most would agree.

[Sandy Storm]

I am definitely not a feminist, I am for equality between the sexs, but I would love for someone to worship me like I worship my wife when I am in Femme mode! Open my doors, hold my hand when I step in or out of a car, buy my meals and drinks...sighs

[LilSissyStevie]

If I were a feminist I could dye my hair purple, wear a vagina suit and pussy ears. The Patriarchy™ would tremble in fear. We would finally get the respect we truly deserve. :heehee:

[Fiona123]

Although imperfect. I am a feminist (or try to be). I would not dye my hair purple (pink maybe) or dress as a vagina. I will resist transphobia, homophobia, and misogyny as well as patriarchy and toxic masculinity.

[Tracii G]

I will always be against homophobia,transphobia but I can also say "hey ladies stop with the man hating which is the same as misogyny just on the other gender".
All thru that march I saw man hating at a worse level than I have ever seen against women by men.
This whole patriarchy argument argument is silly so you want change history now?
Toxic masculinity is a made up term for men being men which is something they have always been thru history.I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Several million years of it so to think its just going to go away because you don't like it?
I don't care much for toxic people either but they are out there and all the screaming about how much you don't like it isn't going to change the fact they will always be out there.
Toxic femininity is just as bad IMO so I stay away from those types as well.
You can gather up all your buzz words carry your signs and march all you want its not going to change anything.

[Fiona123]

Tracii: I agree with your point about toxic femininity.

[Alice B]

I would agree with your answers, but my wife shoulders the bulk. Very much a feminist

[alwayshave]

How are men being victimized in today's society?



Megan, every so called family court on the east coast or the west coast of the U.S.. I know for example, that the Massachusetts Probate and Family Court is controlled by a group of females who hate men more than name your best known hate group and their victim group. Nationally, this court is so well known that attorneys tell their clients not to open divisions in the state because it exposes their executives to too much liability if they get divorced. When lawyers advise corporations to avoid a state because their family court is so anti-male that it must be avoided to protect their executives, there is a case where men are victimized.

[Tracii G]

Divorce court is a prime example.
The woman gets the alimony the man pays both that and child support and has very little money left over and usually not enough to keep a roof over his head.
Anytime the woman gets pissed over something she can go back to the court and cause the man more trouble.
That alone is victimizing the man is it not?

[SDress22]

The most basic, and accurate definition of a feminist, is somebody who believes in equality between a man and a woman. That being the definition, of course I'm a feminist, and I am proud to say it. I come from a working class type of community that would mock me (many women included) for saying that - but people very easily let the media, selective stories and general political agendas cloud their judgement - and yes, there are bad feminists who do not do this cause any favors - but nonetheless, it is an extraordinarily worthy cause.

[Danitgirl1]

I am definitely not a feminist, I am for equality between the sexs, but I would love for someone to worship me like I worship my wife when I am in Femme mode! Open my doors, hold my hand when I step in or out of a car, buy my meals and drinks...sighs
FWIW you meet all the conditions for feminism.
Like all things feminism is a broad church.
Wanting equality is a sufficient and necessary condition.
After that it all becomes a matter of degree.

None of your preferences are mutually exclusive of a feminist belief system

This is sadly the problem... just like not all Christians are Westboro Baptist Church nut jobs, not all feminists are hairy man haters despising all things feminine. You CAN reconcile femininity AND masculinity with feminist ideology, even with radical feminist ideology.

[Vickie_CDTV]

It has become a buzzword as of late, but what exactly the definition of "toxic masculinity", and who gets to define it? There are obvious examples like rape, harassment etc, but what about other things? Is being competitive toxic? Is being rough and tumble toxic? Is just being sexually attracted to women toxic? Are boys being rambunctious and hard for female teachers to control toxic? Where is the line between toxic and men just being what they were naturally designed to be?

[Danitgirl1]

It has become a buzzword as of late, but what exactly the definition of "toxic masculinity", and who gets to define it? There are obvious examples like rape, harassment etc, but what about other things? Is being competitive toxic? Is being rough and tumble toxic? Is just being sexually attracted to women toxic? Are boys being rambunctious and hard for female teachers to control toxic? Where is the line between toxic and men just being what they were naturally designed to be?

From Wikipedia (not the be all and end all, but a good starting point): 'The concept of toxic masculinity describes standards of behavior among men in contemporary American and European society that encourage domination and control of others while being opposed to intellectualism and emotional sensitivity.'
So most of your examples are benign but they could easily go over the edge. No 'normal' or standard male behaviour is not the issue... It is when this steps over the line that it becomes a problem. So ALLOWING boys who are 'rambunctious' to dominate a class at the expense of girls and their (legitimate) needs IS toxic masculinity at play. Saying 'boys will be boys' and thus ENABLING boys to be total arseholes when they verbally (or physically) assault girls is toxic masculinity at play. Allowing boys/men to think that they can control what girls/women wear is toxic masculinity at play...
Basically when you put the needs/wants/desires of men/boys ahead of those of women/girls and JUSTIFY it, then you have toxic masculinity... The key word is TOXIC, not masculinity... There is nothing wrong with the occasional ingestion of moderate amounts of a alcohol, drinking to the point of inTOXICation is the problem. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with males expressing their masculinity but it should nit be at the expense of the rights of others and that expression should be kept within the bounds of what is 'good' for society.
I am not sure that there is such a thing as toxic femininity, I would argue that those things that are seen as such are really just masculine traits being exhibited to the point of toxicity by people with vaginas (note gender and sex are different, people with vaginas CAN be masculine)... But if such a thing (toxic femininity) did exist it would also be wrong.

In my country we have a president who thinks it is not only ok, but desirable and 'good' for women to literally prostrate themselves en masse when male elders walk past, regardless of the status of the women. THAT is toxic masculinity.
Men who justify sexual assault are exhibiting toxic masculinity.
Men who can't handle the fact that they may be attracted to a women who has (or even had) a penis and who then think it is ok to assault the owner of said penis are exhibiting toxic masculinity.
Men who rape lesbians in an attempt to turn them straight are exhibiting toxic masculinity.
Behaviours that encourage men and boys to start to think that any of these behaviours are ok are exhibiting toxic masculinity...

Note: I use the words masculinity and femininity advisedly...

[Kate Simmons]

Since my essence is female, I would have to say yes. :battingeyelashes::)

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I find the current vogue for men to claim they are feminists to be nonsense.

If a man wants to stick up for women's rights, fine, that's his choice, bravo. But he can't be a feminist for the same reason a woman can't be a mannist: because she isn't a man. It's all just PC posturing, virtue signalling, and IMO it's patronising to women.

[Alice Torn]

Tracii is right, it is not equality, anymore the extreme female radicals want. The "puppet masters" above them, want a complete and total destruction, of all western society, and replace it with a "new world order" where all the poor sheeple are under total government control. These females are not true feminists. at all. They are totally miserable females, who hate that they are female, really, and they hate men, also. There is no natural love in them. They are the true "hater,". They hate themselves, too.

[Megan G]

The woman gets the alimony the man pays both that and child support and has very little money left over and usually not enough to keep a roof over his head
That alone is victimizing the man is it not?

So, my best friend was divorced late last year. She was 39 at the time and was married to her husband for nearly 20 years with two daughters 18 and 20. She works at a local hospital and earns more than him, about 35-40k/year more (plus pension contributions). One daughter stayed with him and one with her.

At the end of the divorce she was ordered to fork over 80k of her pension to him, has to pay child support to him as long as that daughter is in school, plus alimony since he earns less than her until daughter #1 leaves school. This all went down even tho she has one daughter living with her.

So by your therory my friend was the victim in all this?

- - - Updated - - -


. They are totally miserable females, who hate that they are female, really.....

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 are you serious? That's the most rediculous thing I have read here in a while...

What proof do you have that they hate they ar women, and they are miserable females to boot....OMG 😞

[alwayshave]

So by your therory my friend was the victim in all this?


Megan, I have no doubt that what you have said is true. However, you pick the exception that proves the rule. In the vast number of cases it is men who are the victims of family law that has been set up to punish men for the benefit of women.

[Tracii G]

Megan if she makes more than her ex husband she should pay the brunt of the expenses. Thats fair under the eyes of the law.
Men are forced to do that all the time but since you I assume are post op you have forgotten all about that.
Now you say you want equal rights for women yet when its not in the females favor you scream foul.
I'm sorry your friend had to get divorced but somebody always gets screwed in divorce cases and this time it was her.
When I divorced my first wife I was the sole bread winner and kept custody of both my daughters because their Mom wasn't willing to work and essentially walked out and didn't have contact with her kids for nearly 10 years.
I raised both of them and put them thru college all on my own.I never asked for anything from her in alimony because I knew I would never see it.
Rape and vile acts against women are already against the law so thats a moot point.

[TinaMc]

So in a situation where person A earns more than person B and they get divorced, person A ends up paying a bit more. And in situations where person B has custody of a child (and associated costs) person A ends up paying more. It's almost like a conspiracy to make sure that both person A and person B end up having pretty similar living standards after they get divorced.

[Danitgirl1]

It is almost like the law demands fairness or something. The inhumanity...

[Ceera]

Long before I even secretly acknowledged to myself that I had any feminine aspects - literally decades earlier, while I was just starting to date the lady who eventually became my wife - she and I went to see a music performance by a lesbian friend of hers, who was an ardent feminist. (My girlfriend was also a feminist.) We chatted for a while back stage, and my girlfriend commented happily that I was a guy who could, and happily would, cook and sew and help with the laundry and other housework. The lady joked, "Any more like him at home?" She chatted with me some more on various topics, and after a bit she looked at me and asked me, "How long have you been a feminist?" I paused and said, "I guess all my life? I was raised by my parents to believe that all people should be treated equally, regardless of gender or other differences. Mom taught me to sew and do housekeeping, just like she did for my sister. Dad taught my sister how to fix car stuff and camping and fishing skills, just like he did for me. My sister and I both learned the same stuff, from both our parents, and we lived by pretty much the same rules."

Today I am an activist for LGBTQ, women's, minorities, and religious group's rights, seeking fair and equal treatment for everyone. And that certainly also includes fair and equal treatment for my cisgender sisters in our society, be they straight or LGBTQ. I understand that "feminist" is often seen as a synonym for "female superiority", but in my experience, that really isn't how most feminists see it - not even most of the lesbian feminists who I know.

[sometimes_miss]

They should beat up all men who catcall to women, and other sexual improprieties.
I refer you to Eliza Shlesinger's routine, where she perfectly describes how the worst thing in the world is being sexually harassed by a guy....and then corrects it to be, sexually harassed by an UGLY guy, otherwise it's just flirting (her words, NOT mine!). So many women complain fiercely about guys looking them over 'like a piece of meat', yet, if the guy is someone they find attractive, they will go out of their way to expose even more of themselves to him. This is the reality we live in; women are just fine with being the sexually desired object of a rich, handsome, famous celebrity, loving the attention, eating up the comments, actually hoping that such a man would be interested in her, actively exposing more of herself, adding more wiggle to her walk, or even going to the ladies room to remove her bra in order to gain more attention. But if she doesn't find him attractive? OH NO! THEN IT'S SEXUAL HARASSMENT! And then that woman even has the gall to try to make the guy the victim of all this. If you dress to get attention, you can't complain when you get it. I know this borders on crossing the feminist line of blaming the woman for her own problem, but so be it. Because I've been called out on the receiving end of an angry woman, dressed in quite a sexy way, complaining of the way I was looking at her. There's no way for us to know beforehand whether the woman thinks we are 'good enough' to be flirting instead of just harassing. With all the emphasis women put on wanting men with confidence, assertiveness and ambition, I'd think they'd understand that.

[SabrinaEmily]

I am not a feminist. If someone thinks that makes me A Bad Person (tm), they are welcome to their opinion.

What I see a lot of in this thread is the motte-and-bailey argument being used to defend feminism. This blog post (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-motte/), by Scott Alexander, explains it in more detail, but in essence it is claiming a lot of things you'd like, but that others don't necessarily agree to, hold true, and then when challenged, claiming you only mean something obvious, uncontroversial, or that No Good Person (tm) would object to. The author gives feminism as one example of this:


The feminists who constantly argue about whether you can be a real feminist or not without believing in X, Y and Z and wanting to empower women in some very specific way, and who demand everybody support controversial policies like affirmative action or affirmative consent laws (bailey). Then when someone says they don’t really like feminism very much, they object “But feminism is just the belief that women are people!” (motte) Then once the person hastily retreats and promises he definitely didn’t mean women aren’t people, the feminists get back to demanding everyone support affirmative action because feminism, or arguing about whether you can be a feminist and wear lipstick.

Just so. I've heard people (elsewhere) claim that supporting all sorts of things from amnesty to veganism is necessary to be a feminist (usually to people who care whether they're thought of as feminists). Then when others use "feminist" as an insult, it's back to asserting that "if you believe men and women should be equal, that makes you a feminist".

This is the point in the debate when someone comes in and says "that's a straw man, no one, or no one but fringe extremists, actually believes that." My experience is different, but let's not get into the details of that. The aforementioned blog post refers to this as an accusation of the weak man fallacy:


Weak-manning is a lot like straw-manning, except that instead of debating a fake, implausibly stupid opponent, you’re debating a real, unrepresentatively stupid opponent. For example, “Religious people say that you should kill all gays. But this is evil. Therefore, religion is wrong and barbaric. Therefore we should all be atheists.” There are certainly religious people who think that you should kill all gays, but they’re a small fraction of all religious people and probably not the ones an unbiased observer would hold up as the best that religion has to offer.

If you’re debating the Pope or something, then when you weak-man, you’re unfairly replacing a strong position (the Pope’s) with a weak position (that of the guy who wants to kill gays) to make it more attackable.

But in motte and bailey, you’re unfairly replacing a weak position (there is a supernatural creator who can make people out of ribs) with a strong position (there is order and beauty in the universe) in order to make it more defensible.

So weak-manning is replacing a strong position with a weak position to better attack it; motte-and-bailey is replacing a weak position with a strong position to better defend it.

That is, I claim, based on experience with self-identified feminists who may or may not be unrepresentative extremists, that they are asserting things that are indefensible, or controversial at best -- men as a class oppress women as a class; no woman should ever be sent to prison, regardless of her crime; if you're not a vegan you're literally raping more females than there are human females -- while claiming they only believe things that are easy to defend. Those defending feminism claim I am only using the most unrepresentative examples to attack something good -- the political changes that have led to a society where women can vote, own property, have their own bank accounts, etc. You can judge for yourself who is in the right.

In the end, "feminism" refers to an ill-defined bag of beliefs and is a word used by some as a badge of virtue and others as a term of disparagement. If, instead of "feminism", we picked out particular things to discuss and said what we meant, this thread would be a lot clearer. Probably you would see most of us on the side of "men and women should be equal under the law" and a lot fewer on the side of "men are systematically oppressing women in 2017 in Western countries". But there would be something to debate there, rather than debating what we are debating (i.e., what "feminism" actually means).


Taboo (http://lesswrong.com/lw/nu/taboo_your_words/) your words, then replace the symbol with the substance (http://lesswrong.com/lw/nv/replace_the_symbol_with_the_substance/). If you have an actual thing you’re trying to debate, then it should be obvious when somebody’s changing the topic. If working out who’s using motte-and-bailey (or weak man) is remotely difficult, it means your discussion went wrong several steps earlier and you probably have no idea what you’re even arguing about.

[Tracii G]

I have no idea who Scott Alexander is and his blog is just his opinion and psycho babble.
He wants you to think he is intelligent by repeating his point using a different set of words in each sentence while essentially saying the same thing.
I don't need to have someone explain to me what a feminist is I have seen plenty of them and know I want to stay as far away from them as I can.

[Alice Torn]

Very well said Sometimes Miss. Men are in double binds, SOCIALLY HAMSTRUNG today. "The masses pf men lead lives of quiet desperation." The masses of women lead lives of "girls just wanna have fun."

[Stephanie Julianna]

If being a feminist is to allow women to just be themselves without judgement than I am One. If being a feminist is to support a woman's right to choose and equal pay for equal work than it's ditto again. I have 2 daughters and 3 granddaughters who I always tell that there is nothing that they can't do if they want it bad enough. They should never think that they can not do something because of their gender.

[Tracii G]

Stephanie sadly that is not what feminism is these days.

[XemmaX]

yes of course and there seems to be some interesting stereotypes floating about here. feminism like many things is a broad church and has many different currents some great some terrible. what im saying is it's not one hamogenous thing.

[Tina_gm]

What really is a feminist? I guess,anyone that believes in equality.... which I also believe for all people. Equality being rights and laws. I don't personally view this as liberal or feminist, but most others tend to see it that way.

[Eva Bella]

I define feminism as not only equality between the sexes, but also the ability for women to choose their own lives outside of male dependence and approval.

A woman who is a housewife or a stripper can absolutely be a feminist if that's the life that she freely chooses for herself. Being a true feminist does not imply that you're anti-male at all, it just means that you want and expect the same freedom of self-determination that men do.

So yeah, I'm very much a feminist.. all the way.

[Tracii G]

Eva I agree.
But what is passing for feminism these days is of a radical mindset and very anti male.
When you say you are a feminist these days the image you are projecting is this radical anti male, pussy hat wearing hot pink haired I am a nasty woman crowd.
Women like what I have seen on TV back in Jan are not feminists at all.

[Eva Bella]

Yes, but you're talking about extreme viewpoints, and most importantly, you're quoting what you see on TV. And I agree, those people are not true feminists.

With media so incredibly fragmented, most mass communication is polarized to a ridiculous degree. Right wing media frames feminism as man-hating extremists. Left wing media declares "the future is female" and celebrates the downfall of the patriarchy. Neither viewpoint is true or even accurate. Although I'm sadly way out of my 20s, I work with a lot of people in that age group, and it's wonderful: they're growing up all on their own without all of the baggage and petty hatred that my generation and the ones before me did. They're sure as hell not getting their viewpoints from TV or the likes of Fox, MSNBC, or CNN. Those places have to maintain eyes on their advertisements, and the best way to do that is fear and outrage. It's literally their business. You can be a proud feminist without harboring any disdain for men. I'm proud of my Italian heritage.. that doesn't mean I look down on people of other ethnicities.

Modern feminist thought is simply granting women the same freedom for self-determination as men have. And elevating feminine viewpoints to the same level as masculine ones. I think that anyone on this site can agree with that.