Just thinking out loud

[arleen]

"Isn't this just one more way men invade our space, take something else from us?"

I've seen this said in some form many times. I think it's an absolutely valid question and leaves me completely defenseless and unsettled. Actually, it would be more accurate to say alienated and humiliated. It's even more troubling for me since I mostly agree with it. But still I wonder. For people that truly believe gender transgression is a "choice" behavior, I think it's probably even more difficult for them to appreciate the complexity of gender. In turn, I have to ask myself the question. Where it's believed, that it truly is not a choice and that this incongruent gender behavior must in some way be linked to something that happened in the first 9 months of life, doesn't that also deem incongruent gender behavior valid? Isn't it valid that we as genetic males or females with either partial or full gender identities opposite our XX or XY chemistry, would feel drawn in some part to that identity? Wouldn't that identity created in the same place and time frame deserve recognition? Yet in the case of males, societal norms asked us to deny that which is integral part of who we are and to just deal with it, act like a man, don't cry, don't act like a girl, be tough. In the opposite case, a female showing signs of male behavior are equally chastised. Isn't it sort of like asking a non TG/TS genetic female or male to deny some part of their congruent gender identity or worse yet to act in a way inconsistant with their gender identity? Females may have more latitude but as a FTM said to me once, "it is very different going out in men's clothing as a woman than a woman going out in men's clothing as a man". Clothing is the easy part.
arleen

[Kimberley]

Thanks Arleen for starting this thread. You put together some ideas I have been pondering more and more.

I can remember identifying as a female for as long as I have been around. However, that identity was denied me by my parents from the beginning. I had more than a few beatings for various activities that were considered female. This included mannerisms, speech patterns and of course cross dressing.

The long term result was that I had to become a male in all things whether I wanted to or not and believe me, I did not. Over the decades, marriage, raising a family, working in industry etc etc, I kept my secret well hidden. In the end it has taken a huge toll mentally on me. Keeping Kimberley hidden was the wrong thing to do, this I now know. I had to make the choice to work withing the accepted norms out of a need for survival and all that entails.

Doing this caused great mental anguish for sure and over the long haul I have lost touch with that essence of my female self despite the fact that she is there. Today I am struggling to regain Kimberley, to give her the equality she deserved and was denied.

What all this has done for me is leave me even more gender confused than ever. My pdoc tried to explain that we are all polymorphic, not fitting into any little box of definition. Some of us, particularly the younger generations have a much easier time of dealing with this than us older ones. This is the result of a more accepting or perhaps more accurately, a less caring society than what we grew up in.

I think it is unfair to state that men are denying us because women are equal partners in social attitudes. It is society that is setting the norms. We on the other hand have (at least in the past) hidden because of the prejudices. I think we have perpetuated that bigotry by doing this.

Barriers are falling for sure but how far and how fast? Some are pushing them but there is a long way to go to open acceptance.

So, is it choice? Perhaps in part but not in essence.
Are men denying us? In part but just as equally guilty are women.
Is society at large to blame? Yes, religious groups, bigoted groups, ignorant lawmakers, and lastly, our own hiding from standing up as we should.

That leaves but one question; Who and what are we?

Just my 0.02 worth

Hugs to all.
Kimberley

[arleen]

Hi Kimberley, thanks, for taking the time to reply to this thread. I'm not sure but when you said "I think it is unfair to state that men are denying us because women are equal partners in social attitudes." I wonder if you misread my first sentence? If not, my apologies.

"Isn't this just one more way men invade our space, take something else from us?"
is something I've heard from GG's. many times. And as I said, "I mostly agree with it."

It sounds like we are from the same generation. I agree with you, the younger generations have a much easier time of dealing with this than us older ones. I don't think the issue is any less difficult but certainly there are way more resources and support to deal with it.

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. I think you did what many of us have done given the times. Maybe unconsciously you did a risk/benifit analysis and made the best decision you could given the situation and the times. As difficult as things have been at times, I still wouldn't trade my family for any of this. My family is and has been the most important thing in my life and I put that above all else.
arleen

[Maria D]

If it was done as a choice, by a 'normal' man or woman who isn't driven to transgender behavior to satisfy an internal need or desire, then YES, I can see that point of view. The same point of view applied once to woman wearing trousers, but this starts to go into the whole 'gender politics' debate that bores me silly. (Bores me because the people who argue are usually polarised to side with their born gender, and are madly passionate without being able to see the other side, and without trying to.)
I don't think that in any way applies to anyone on the TG spectrum. We are hardly storming strongly into womanhood with machineguns arresting all the lipstick and ripping the skirts off hangers for male use. Proudly strutting round in our heels while the oppressed women scrub floors like Cinderella.

I mean come ON. (Not you, the women who say that.)

We tend, as a group, to scuttle around behind people's backs in shame, risking everything we have if caught, feeling guilty for doing it, often hating ourselves for doing it. What ARE we taking from women? Shame? Guilt? Bunions? Shaving rash? They can bl**dy have it.
It's not a choice, it's something we have to do, and no-one yet knows why. I can't speak for many, but for me I never, EVER, wanted this. I didn't want all the pain that comes with being this way, I certainly wasn't trying to steal anything, I only did it because that way I could actually live. It's not even easy, and certainly not fun, but it's life, and that's an improvment.

As to society, it's a two way thing. Firstly, most people WANT to fit in, so copy others. Then those people, being society, ridicule those that don't copy. Anything different becomes a target. A simple example is clothing rules. Not just gender rules, any rule. Technically, why not a GG wearing a smart suit skirt and bovver boots? Why not colours that don't go, like grey, blue and black, or pink and red (hehe)? You get looked at for being different; my fiancee is always pointing out people who dress badly.
So don't be angry at gendered social norms, be angry at all social norms, but remember why they are there. I think common rules help to create a cohesive atmosphere, and if not a sense of bonding, a sense of belonging. Gangs have colours; society is just a big gang.
Take care :)

[arleen]

"If it was done as a choice, by a 'normal' man or woman who isn't driven to transgender behavior to satisfy an internal need or desire, then YES, I can see that point of view."

Maria, I think we're in agreement where it is a choice. In my original post I was trying to reason for myself, a case for more understanding where it is not a choice. Which I think we're also in agreement. Still, I do strongly support a woman’s right to ask the question, "isn't this just one more thing you're taking from us?" I am such a novice on woman’s issues, I go there cautiously and ask for patience from any GG reading this. Women born women have a different history than men and live with a different collective history that I think gives them every right to ask that question. I think in almost all societies women are not treated as equals. I think indignity’s, injustices, or inhumane treatment of women and any part of the world are felt by all women the world over. In so many societies, women do not have the same day to day freedoms men have including western societies. I think I saw on the news last night that only 16% of lawmaking bodies around the world are made up of women and that in India throwing acid on a woman’s face to disfigure her is a common enough problem to warrant government attention. If you look at the big picture, I think men have taken an enormous amount from women. We don't have to look very hard to find instances in our own societies, where women are abused by men in any number of ways. Men have taken away or severely limited the lives of many of the worlds women. Something as simple as walking down the street alone. To me, that's a lot. Most men don't have that problem.
arleen

[Kimberley]

Arleen,
I agree with you in principle and in fact, many places around the world women are not equal. We in the west are supposedly more enlightened.

I would like to throw this one out. In the world of domestic abuse, how many men are abused? I think that men also suffer abuse albeit psychological, and emotional more commonly than physical. Most men will not admit to it or report it but it does happen and a lot more frequently than we men are willing to admit.

Abuse has many forms and people are people despite gender, all are capable of being abused or of abusing.

Just a thought.
Kimberley.

[arleen]

KImberley, I wouldn't disagree and obviously it's wrong regardless of the perpetrator. Still, clearly women are some of the more vulnerable people on earth. I don't have the skills to articulate any of this very well but I think that status, the lack of equality and being denied many of the freedoms men enjoy, gives women the right to ask the question.
arleen

[Maria D]

There's so many issues in this it's hard to sift through.

In terms of equality, certainly throughout history and still now around the world women have been mistreated. This is probably because men have stronger bodies. Of course, throughout history weaker men get and are bullied by other men. This is an issue that humanity needs to address fully.
However, regarding the 'taking another thing' issue, I want to recount something.
The Avon and Somerset Police force has just dropped its recruiting policy because their own lawyers advised them it was unlawful; they have had this policy for years. Basically, whenever they opened another recruiting session, they sifted through the applications and threw away the white male ones, before even looking at the quality of the applications. The last session received 800 apps of which they threw away 200 without looking. This was because 'white men are over-represented in the force'. So they discriminated against a people, rather than awarding the jobs based on merit. This is not lawful or morally right.
My point is, that just because men have taken a lot from women over the years, is it right to not 'let' them now? Should we in fact be stopped, since we have had too much cake?

Next, regarding the oppression, I didn't do it. Err, let me check. Oh, ok, I was responsible for the burka, the sanctioning of beating women and that bit in the bible that says you must marry a woman if you rape her, but the rest, nothing to do with me.
My point is, and it's my most important point, why hold US responsible for the crimes of others because of our gender? Surely that's the same as criticising, for instance, black people, because one black person commits a crime? (A girl at work did just that this week, and I HATE tarring people with the same brush.)

Next, IS it really taking anything from a woman? I mean, if women are oppressed and men attempt to step into their shoes, what is that taking? The oppression?

Next, I often hear an arguement against coloured people, like Alf Garnet saying 'they come over here, taking our jobs.' Er, why shouldn't they? Why were they OUR jobs?

I also have heard the 'taking from us' line used when a girl demanded, and got, the right to join the boy's brigade. I don't really see what was being taken.

Overall, that line smacks to me of the general 'people' attitude of 'stay in your box, how dare you cross any line?' It's been said about women's trousers, women's right to vote, in fact most women's rights. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Stopping us would just be oppression too surely?

Of course, lastly, how many TGs actually choose this? I mean, without a show of hands, surely if you could choose, you'd choose to be normal, wouldn't you?
Hmm, normal; accepted, happy in yourself, or TG; confusion, pain, non-acceptance, fear, self-loathing maybe, all as a choice? Like, yeah, I don't HAVE to, I just want to get funny looks and comments, and be made to feel like a freak. I ENJOY being made to feel like a freak. Really, who'd choose it? Again I ask what we'd be taking, and why?

That's my defence of it anyway. I have to defend it really don't I? I spent so long believing it was wrong, I'm not going to go back to that, then I really would die. I came close enough before.

I think that's everything, sorry if I ranted but I don't see what I'm taking. All it's done is cause me misery and suffering.
In a very real way, we are fighting the same 'mind space' of oppression that women have, and continue to suffer. We should be viewed as sisters in arms, not as men taking something. I was never a man, and I'll never be a woman, I'm TS. Funny how both that makes you a target for both sexes eh?

Take care :)

[arleen]

Maria, It is difficult to sift through it all.

"My point is, that just because men have taken a lot from women over the years, is it right to not 'let' them now? Should we in fact be stopped,since we have had too much cake?"

I do understand what you're saying. but I think we may have strayed a bit from my original point. I'm afraid my original thought was overly simplistic. I just believe it's perfectly understandable that the question be asked. Is it justifiable? I think that's another discussion. Personally, when a GG ask the question. I completely support her right to ask it and I feal I understand the basis for it. I would only ask her for the opportunity to get to know me as an individual.

"surely if you could choose, you'd choose to be normal, wouldn't you?'

There are times when I wish I was fully one or the other. But on the other hand, as difficult as it can be, I think I've gained enormously from it. I am a better person for it and I hope enlightened. If I were fully one or the other, I probably would not be having this sincere discussion with you. I am enriched by it, thank you

Rant may be a bit harsh but I understand where it comes from. :-)
arleen

[Kimberley]

I am a strong proponent of equality and that applies in all things. The problem at large is that others (most) only pay lip service to this ideal and dont live it. When we live it we set ourselves up do we not?

If I had to choose between being TG and "normal" I would still choose the way I am. I understand the pain and anguish as much as anyone but I also know the plus side of it that others ("straights") do not. It is that "duality" if you want to call it that, that sets us apart, makes us more sensitive, understanding and all the other wonderful characteristics we share with women. The real pity is that the vast majority of that half of the population cant understand us or wont make the effort to understand. Such a shame really. Is it fair to call it ignorance?

Ignorance=fear=discrimination.

Kimberley.

[arleen]

I am a strong proponent of equality and that applies in all things. The problem at large is that others (most) only pay lip service to this ideal and dont live it. When we live it we set ourselves up do we not?

If I had to choose between being TG and "normal" I would still choose the way I am. I understand the pain and anguish as much as anyone but I also know the plus side of it that others ("straights") do not. It is that "duality" if you want to call it that, that sets us apart, makes us more sensitive, understanding and all the other wonderful characteristics we share with women. The real pity is that the vast majority of that half of the population cant understand us or wont make the effort to understand. Such a shame really. Is it fair to call it ignorance?

Ignorance=fear=discrimination.

Kimberley.

"When we live it we set ourselves up do we not?" in what way?

"The real pity is that the vast majority of that half of the population cant understand us or wont make the effort to understand. Such a shame really."

I agree but I can understand it. Maybe someday that will change as the younger generation comes along and demands equality.

Is it fair to call it ignorance?" I don't know, people don't like to be confused and this is a pretty confusing thing for people
arleen

[AnnaMaria]

"Isn't this just one more way men invade our space, take something else from us?"


Arleen,

I see your point and being a married tg I do understand your opinion of the situation. And to some extent I do agree that women do in general have the right to ask that question and expect an honest answer form those of us who they precieve as being the takers.

But, I think that the "answer" is what is most important. In most cases the women who ask the question do not expect or even want an answer to the question they are simply looking for another reason to create problems for our community in general.

I would be more than happy to sit and discuss with any woman who asked the whole situation and all the reasons that I could explain without reservation. My problem is how do I explain what I don't understand myself? There are times when I would just love to be "normal". Especially when I see first hand the pain that I cause my wife when she is trying to deal with this and not let it overwhelm her. But at the same time I see myself as a gift to the world from God. I see myself as a bridge between the sexes for better understanding. How else can the two ever hope to see the others point of view.

Do they have the right to ask? yes of course they do
Should we be given the opportunity to answer? yes

How else are we as a people (and I mean the world) going to move beyond the descrimination and hate if we don't take the time to listen and at least try to understand.

My wife trys to be as understanding as she can and most of the time she succeeds quite well. But there are times when she looses track of that understanding and makes comments that hurt. Does she do it on purpose? No. I know she would never do anything to intentionally hurt me. And there are times when I do or say things that hurt her. I do my best to not do that but it does happen. But at least she tries.

A lot of women won't even give that much. It's wrong, It's perverted, It's a sin, It's whatever they want to call it. Thus the high divorce rate within our community.

And yet the question still remains. But are we actually taking anything from them. We are dressing like them. But until the invention of pants everyone dressed pretty much alike anyway. So we are actually just going back to a simpler time in history with our style of dress. We wear makeup. Even George Washington wore makeup. Some of us use the little girls room when we are in public. Something that is a completely 20th century invention and still not worldwide even today. My point is that what most women precieve as being taken from them is actually something that was in the past shared be both sexes and has been taken away from men because of some skewd since of "manly" presence. I guess my point is that the whole idea of us taking anything from women is simply a matter of societal pressure and indoctrination rather than physical action. In Genesis it talks about the woman being made from the rib of a man so are we to assume that since God took part of the man to make the woman that before he or she did that the man was both male and female in thought and deed? Or did God create a whole new creature with totally different feelings. There is no real way of knowing. Is this where the idea of a soul mate came from? Two from one forever linked by that single rib.

Maybe we are perpatrating some horrible crime against women by being who we are but I don't see it that way and if given the opportunity I think I could show a big part of the world that we bing who we are is just a simple matter of us returning to the begining when there was only one sex.

Anna

[Maria D]

If I had to choose between being TG and "normal" I would still choose the way I am. I understand the pain and anguish as much as anyone but I also know the plus side of it that others ("straights") do not. It is that "duality" if you want to call it that, that sets us apart, makes us more sensitive, understanding and all the other wonderful characteristics we share with women.

I don't think it's fair to say that women have the monopoly on 'nice' traits. My fiancee's Mum isn't sensitive, understanding or any other wonderful trait. Nor are many women I know. Equally I have male friends who are sensitive, understanding and lots of other great things.
It's funny that we ourselves are gender stereotyping, when in other posts in this board we complain about being pigeon-holed.

As to liking it, I suppose it depends how you approach it in your head. I see it as something that caused me to try to kill myself, made me unhappy that I wasn't 'right', made me resent all the normal people, men and women, for being so effortlessly happy (not true of course, everyone has troubles), finally forced me to hurt people just in order to be happy. If I wasn't this way, I'd still be sensitive, understanding etc, but I wouldn't be so bitter, twisted, cynical, sarcastic and still so very angry. Seen from that angle, I don't see much to like.
Of course, if someone sees it from a different view, and never hated it, even enjoyed the aspects it brought to their life, then they are lucky and I think that'd be a much better way to be.
I think that's what I'm trying to give to 'the next generation', so to speak. If society had no problem with it, it should be easier for people to come out and avoid the mental pain any suppressed personal issue causes.

Another way I see it is two people. Both are sitting together talking, and one sugests that he is not happy where he is. He doesn't like the scenery or climate, and can't explain why. He feels he must go somewhere else to be happy, and being where he was has caused him a lot of hurt.
He leaves and travels a very long way, fighting dragons, bears, large racoons and possibly even goldfish with teeth.
He finally, after a terrible trek, gets to the top of a knoll and looks round. After picking off the goldfish, he knows he has arrived. He is happy now, without knowing why, and he can continue with his life. Then he eats the goldfish.
The other person, well, he was happy to start with. He just stayed where he was, enjoying his life. He ALWAYS had the happiness the other person wanted, and he didn't have to trek anywhere.
So, if I could be 'normal', and avoid the trek, and just be happy in myself as I am, I would.

What would the walking man have 'lost' by being happy to stay?

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, so for many people, that's true. If someone then learns about TG issues and rejects us, that's not ignorance, that's hate.

Take care :)

[arleen]

Anna, thanks you for joining in on this discussion and Maria and KImberly.

Without stating the obvious, it's interesting how we all share a common issue but it's shaped differently and dealt with differntly depending on individual circumstances. For whatever reason, I don't have any anger related to having been dealt this hand. Do I find it difficult? absolutely. But it's just something that happens. It's not anyone's fault. It's just the way it is. It's up to me to deal with it best I can and be the best person I can be and in the process hope for some level of acceptance. It's certainly not the fault of people around me. I also don't think I have the right to ask the world to accommodate me unconditionally. Not that, that wouldn't be nice. :-)

I also feel I need to say I haven't expressed an opinion on "the question" only that I defend the right for a gg to ask it. Suffice it to say I believe there are legitimate reasons for a gg to feal that way and would sit on her side of the debate table and do the best I can. Though, I don't feel it's my place chair a debate from a gg's point of view. If there was a gg here willing to chair it?, I would do my best to support her.

Anna, I'm glad you have understanding for the question and I couldn't agree more that the "answer is what's most important" Still, I find this statement troubling.

"In most cases the women who ask the question do not expect or even want an answer to the question they are simply looking for another reason to create problems for our community in general."

I'd like to suggest another possibility. First, as I said, I think it's a legitimate question and I think it's a bit narrow to say that it's asked to intentionally "create problems for our community in general." and doesn't serve to really try to understand her point of view. I think for many gg's, this is an extremely difficult issue and are equally confused with how to deal with it. Maybe she's really trying to saying something else, but we not listing? And if we don't "understand it ourselves" isn't it fair, that goes both ways?

"How else are we as a people (and I mean the world) going to move beyond the discrimination and hate if we don't take the time to listen and at least try to understand."

Unfortunately, a lot of times discussion isn't really discussion, it just one person or group trying to assert their position over another.

I think it must be so difficult for someone that has grown up with, and expected a traditional relationship to have that turned upside down. Millions of years of evolution has imprinted expectations that are now out of order. It's one of the reasons I have enormous respect and admiration for the gg's that are able to transcend that.

"My wife trys to be as understanding as she can and most of the time she succeeds quite well. But there are times when she looses track of that understanding and makes comments that hurt. Does she do it on purpose? No. I know she would never do anything to intentionally hurt me. And there are times when I do or say things that hurt her. I do my best to not do that but it does happen. But at least she tries."

She sounds special and obviously cares deeply for you. Being considerate of her feelings can go a long way. I think it's more our responsibility to minimize impact of all of this in a relationship. Timing is everything and often it's more important to listen than to talk.
arleen