When did woman get to be the flamboyant and colourful gender?

[Becky Blue]

I recently read a fascinating book called Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. One part of the book talks a bit about gender and he makes a very interesting point. He shows a portrait of King Louis the 14th of France complete with stockings, a long wig and high heels, standing in a dancers pose. The Author points out that the King was considered the paragon of masculinity and virility at the time.

He goes on to point out that over history its the dominant men who have been the colourful ones. Think of Indian Chiefs and Hindu Maharajas, think of knights in amour with feathers and plumes. It is only in recent history that the male of the species has dressed so drearily. Interestingly he also points out that in the Animal Kingdom its the male who tends to be more colourful and accessorised Think Lions and Peacocks.

One can imagine how things could have turned out so differently, which leads to an interesting question which I am sure has been asked before. If males wore the short skirts and flowing lace and silks etc.. would we be desperate to put on the dull pants and tops that women would be wearing? I believe that would be the case, we would all be trying as hard to look like women. What do others think?

[Kate Simmons]

The way I see it, it's mostly the fashion industry that promotes women's fashions and promotes trends. What we wear depends mostly on ourselves and how we feel we are perceived. We tend to utilize clothes and makeup, hair styles , etc. as a vehicle to portray to others how we feel inside. Those of us who are freer spirits will tend to be ourselves regardless of what anyone else may think. Works for me. :battingeyelashes::)

[Rachael Leigh]

If dresses and skirts were the norm for men and the reverse for women, no I would keep my dresses and skirts.
To me it's about color and softness of the clothes, not because their women's.
Yes I enjoy presenting as a women but it's more about the look the makeup and all that. At least that's me

[char GG]

This summer, there are all colors of men's shirts, pants, shorts, suits, ties, and shoes on the shelves. My SO looks at them and says he would never wear them. But he does like to wear the colorful clothes from the women's department. Until men actually start buying the colorful clothes, they are going to be stuck in the "blue, grey, black" mode. Look around and see what's out there for men this year. So, the way I see it, the fashion industry is trying to get the men to buy a larger variety but they just aren't going for it.

Looking back to the 1500's, King Henry VIII wore all kinds of fancy robes, hats, etc. Even in the 1970's my husband had beautiful silk, colorful, shirts (think the Beatles). How did the progression from those times to current times get like it did? I have no idea.

[DIANEF]

I don't think I would wear drab stuff if the roles were reversed, the look I can achieve now makes me very happy, I love my clothes, hair and my make up. Highly unlikely I'd want to swap that for dreary trousers and shirts.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm a homely old man. All my life I've disliked my drab image in the mirror. Regardless of my clothing. :sad:

I refuse to be a plain, homely, old woman as long as I can avoid it. Now, I LOVE Sherry's mirror images. No matter what she is or isn't wearing!:D

[Lea]

I was raised with strict gender roles. Men do not talk about their problems, men don't show emotions or a mans worth is based upon his job. Women can talk to others about their concerns, show emotions and be their for others. Then combine that with the fact that my mom wanted a girl , I found out years latter that she raised me a girl until I had to go to school.

So for me dressing is more of what gender the clothing represents. If it was just the clothing that was reversed I would be letting my body hair grow in the winter, wanting to wear the rougher clothing for the gender they represent.

[Gillian Gigs]

How royalty dressed had a lot to do with money. They could afford fine clothes and the commoner had what ever they could afford, or make. In history, once the middle class had some extra money, they changed their clothing habits accordingly. Look into the words that described fancy dressed men of there day. Macraroni's of the 18th century, the Dandy's, and then the Dudes, now we have metro-sexual's. The original meaning of dude was not the same as it is today. The negative attitudes of the have nots probably had an influence on how men dress today. "Macho men dressed rough and city boys were gentile". Well, that how Hollywood liked to show it in the movies. If you didn't aspire to be like your competitor, then you disdained them.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Interesting question Becky, but I disagree.

Plenty of women dress in appallingly dull, shapeless clothing- just look around you. Not so true in Paris of course, but certainly true on Main St Oz, USA, or UK.

I have no interest in female clothing unless it's pretty or stylish- and my attempts at feminization (such as they are) are aimed at being a pretty, stylish girl.

[Alice Torn]

I agree with Gillian, and Nikki!

[Micki_Finn]

You have to remember too that kings and chiefs are NOT necessarily representative of the "average" man. If you look at peasant clothing you'll find it quite a bit more drab. In many tribal cultures there are strict rules against against anyone but the chief wearing those colorful outfits and headdresses. So is it really a question of gender divide or economic one?

[Ressie]

Yeah Gillian, it's still kind of like that. It's very rare for me to pay retail price for clothing whether male or female. Those with a much bigger disposable income pay a lot more for clothing.

And folks tend to dress down in small towns compared to big cities from what I've seen. Of course there are blue collar workers in bigger cities that dress in work clothes, and business types in small towns that dress business casual.

[sometimes_miss]

Well, seeing as they've found cosmetics from more than five thousand years ago, I'd say it happened a very long time ago.

[GretchenM]

Good question. I think it is primarily a cultural thing and, as such, it changes over time. And the points made about the difference between the wealthy and the poor are very good. Perhaps the female of our species has always been attracted to more self decoration than the males simply because the females are the attractors of the males as mates. But males also do a lot of attracting plus a lot of posturing to show he is strong and therefore, in the eyes of the female, likely a good provider for her and the kids. But in the modern world, clearly the fashion industry plays a big role in the lives of people who are tuned into fashion trends. For the others it is wear whatever makes you feel good about what you are wearing and to hell with fashion trends. But I think the fashion industry has a strong cultural foundation as well and may be linked to some degree to socioeconomic class differences. I also wonder how much religious beliefs influences the thinking of what is proper or improper in a particular culture. Religion plays a big part in culture and perhaps religious concepts of what is proper for males and females influences fashion. The current trend, at least in Western culture, is strongly binary. It has been for some time, but with the social consciousness shifting, especially among young people, toward a more free form style of gender expression the days of the long standing binary differentiation may be numbered. Or not.

[fashionisto]

A very interesting point you're making, Becky. I've often wondered about this myself. In our culture, men look drab compared to women (at least, the women that care about looking nice), although this is slowly changing. Women on average also buy more clothes than men. There is definitely more shop space dedicated to women's clothes. But when we look at tribal cultures, we see a lot of colourful ornamental stuff on men (and not just for the top dogs). That suggests that it's in part just culturally dependent.

I've also wondered about the overlap between contemporary women's clothing and higher-class men's clothing. Not just the centuries-old upper class clothing (just watch an episode of Blackadder to see what I mean) but also the "higher" classes in our modern cultural imagery, in particular celebrities and pop stars. For quite awhile it has been fine for pop stars to wear make-up and women's clothes, that are not accepted for "mere mortals". I also noticed very feminine stuff on fantasy characters, and it looks quite appropriate in the context, and not feminine (note they often have beards to make them look more manly).


Until men actually start buying the colorful clothes, they are going to be stuck in the "blue, grey, black" mode. Look around and see what's out there for men this year. So, the way I see it, the fashion industry is trying to get the men to buy a larger variety but they just aren't going for it.

That's also my experience. Many men won't up their style because they do not feel like doing so. A lot of men still have their wives buy their clothes for them, though this is diminishing. Men are shy to dress smart, and for some, that is just a self-inflicted limitation. Many on this forum have tried dressing feminine in public, and found to their utter surprise that they get a lot of positive attention. Same with me. In fact it felt like I was let in on an exciting secret. And the same will go for dressing smart in male clothes. I hope that, by giving a positive example, I can make more men crawl out of their "shells" and start being more creative with styles.

As to the original question, would CDers want to emulate women even if they look more drab than men do? I think the answer is yes, some will, but not as many.

Dressing feminine appeals to me in several ways. I started out by just trying to look smart, not feminine per se. There are a lot of women's clothes that have features that look smart and sexy but not necessarily feminine. Women's fashion is often inspired by men's fashion (old or contemporary, like the boyfriend jeans). The fashion industry takes some of the more striking men's clothing designs, then upgrades them to look more sexy and creative, and markets these as women's clothes.

Women's clothes often reveal and punctuate the body in ways that men's clothes rarely do. Men's clothing is often designed to hide the body. That's why you can't find stretchy shirts or shirts with open neck shapes in the men's department. Let alone shirts with creative holes, like open shoulder shirts. Showing skin or accentuating the body in a certain way does not only look sexy on women, but also on men. But if a man does it, it has shock value and basically violates dress code. If, as you say, the situation were reversed, I for one would not have this incentive to wear women's clothes. Others have mentioned colour and softness as important attributes. I personally don't find these as important, but I do find the sheer variety of what's available in the women's department appealing.

But there is another aspect to it. I've noticed that I find completely artificial and culturally-dependent female signifiers attractive. For me this is one reason to wear them: I like what I see in the mirror. I've met a few FtMs and I noticed a pattern there in the opposite direction. Some FtMs look like "very pretty" men, adorned with jewelry and very smart hairstyles and clothes, but all men's attire. And it appears some women are actually jealous of men's styles, can you believe it! So, some of the appeal is about the association with the opposite sex.

[Tracii G]

Beating the dead horse again.

[CONSUELO]

As some have pointed out in their replies, men did not always dress drably. Consider the 17th Century in Europe when men routinely wore stylish wigs, used powder and even rouge. Not everyone approved of course, but being "foppish" was considered acceptable by many. Of course this only applied to a very small segment of society and most people probably looked very sloppy as they could not afford nice looking clothing and keeping clothing clean must have been immensely difficult in those times.

Today the accepted code for many men and women is what I call "sloppy drab". When I worked full-time I always dressed carefully and wore good suits and stylish shirts and ties. I disliked the "ditch the tie" culture and thought casual Fridays were not a good idea. My job involved meeting many people from other companies and I always felt the need to represent my company well by looking well-dressed and well-groomed.

My Mother would wear comfortable clothing to do the housework but if she had to go shopping she would make sure she dressed well, had applied makeup and I always thought that for her it was as much pride in her appearance. I inherited that attitude.

I found an old film of people traveling in the 1950's and there was a sequence that showed crowds of people walking to catch a train at a London terminus station. All were well-dressed,very few were overweight and none were fat. I wonder what a video of a crowd in the same place would look like today.

[Stacy Darling]

When has there been a Woman more Flambouyant than I?
When has there been a Woman more colourful than I?

My desire is not to look like a woman but to look like me!

I shall always dress as I wish, whether it be Phoenix or Dragon.

Stacy

[Becky Blue]

My point to some extent was that in many cultures, over history and in the animal kingdom it is the alpha male that is the colourful flamboyant one.

Special mention to Tracii, then don't read the thread :)

[Tracii G]

Sorry I just remarked on a pattern I have been seeing nothing more.
It wasn't anything personal.

[GeorgeA]

Hi Becky,

Since I do not want to look like a woman the answer is "no". For me it's the clothings that matter. We had a similar discussion before Xmas and I promised to elaborate. See my post today "Are You a Miad". It answers my preferences.