Are you TS?

[Nigella]

Being TS is not about having the correct bits rather than the defects, removing dominent male/female features, sexuality and all the other miriad of things that you read about. Being TS is living the life that you know you should actually have been born into.

Does it make you any less a Woman/Man (yep I said Man, being TS is not just M2F) because you still have the birth defects, a prominent adams apple, baldness, shovels for hands. Hell no, just take a look at society, with the exception of twins, triplets etc, no two people are the same and some features are more dominent than others.

Some will try to say you are not TS because you have not had surgery, WRONG, there are some who for whatever reason CANNOT have surgery. Why should they be invalidated as Women/Men just because birth defects are still present. In fact, in the UK we are fortunate that even the government accept that surgery is not a definition of being TS.

Whilst there is, at present, a requirement for a Gender Specialist to confirm a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria, the only other requirement that they ask for is that you have lived the life of your "new" gender for two years and that you are not likely to return to your life in the "old" gender. If you can satisfy these two criteria you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will allow you to get a new birth certificate with the correct gender.

... and then to answer my own question, Are you TS? Hell yes, but not because of some preconcieved opinion of "elitists" but because I am living the life I should have been born into and was doing so for many years before I had any "medical" intervention.

Of course this is only my opinion, it is as valid as yours, not anymore or any less. Take from this what you will :)

[AllieSF]

I totally agree with your statements. I have seen here over the years people with varied opinions try to limit who really are transwomen. I don't think I have ever seen that in the transmen section. You are what you are. After realizing or discovering the truth, what you do with it is your own choice. You also do not have to suffer through it all, though that is difficult to avoid, nor be ready to kill yourself to transition. I do not take the last scenario as what most truly mean, but do understand the need to caution wannabe TS's.

[Pat]

I'm in kind of a gray area. My gender, as I experience it, requires me to present female to be happy so I've had medical intervention to make my body look right to me. I live and work in that presentation 24/7 and am out to everyone. I've even changed the gender markers on my IDs. So I've "transitioned" medically, socially and legally. The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary. So I transitioned to live as authentically as I can as a third gender in this two-gender society. In my mind, I'm "non-binary TS" and so yes, I'm TS. But by the rules, I'm not.


If you can satisfy these two criteria you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will allow you to get a new birth certificate with the correct gender.

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

[Nigella]

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

I am in the UK Pat. The path we need to follow is recognised throughout the UK and as there is only one "authority" it makes it simple. There is no requirement for "appropriate treatment" although that is one of the paths that can be used, in that case a GP can sign the relevant forms, stating which surgery has been completed.

[Mirya]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention. And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.

Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.

[jentay1367]

Do you mind if I ask where you are? I'm in Massachusetts and here you can change your birth certificate with just an affidavit and a letter from an MD saying you've had "appropriate treatment" to amend the gender marker listed. (And, of course, a court order for name change if you're changing that too.) No "time in gender" requirement that I'm aware of, though your doctor might be unwilling to sign if you don't seem socially adapted.

This would make my life so much simpler. I've set my GCS date foe PAI in Thailand. I have "his" Identification including Passport and Drivers License. I live in a State that is let's say, less than progressive. They will not give me a Drivers License in this State till I have the bottom surgery. It's a logistics nightmare. My intention is to "lose my license" and get a new one issued with my new picture since I look substantially different than the one I possess now. Then I will travel as a male to Thailand. 45 days later I will be coming home with girl parts. I will have a letter from PAI at that point. Then I can petition a Court here in hillbilly land to give me a new license in my name and get a valid passport and have my Birth Certificate changed. Oh to be in California or Massachusetts! The work I'm forced to do and the workarounds I have to endure to appease ignorant haters simply sucks!

[Megan G]

The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary.


Pat, no offence but you don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum or anywhere.... and that's ok....your NB.....

The definition of TS specifically says
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

With that said your gender identity (according to you) is not male, not female... it's NB. So your identity is not opposite of your birth gender, and that right there makes you not TS......EVERYWHERE


I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.


I would agree with that, but also note that if they cannot have surgery becuase of health reasons that would not make me see them any differently.

Again just my opinion, and not being elitist....

[Kelly DeWinter]

We are in an age of verbal gymnastics over many things these days. Our community has many members who take many years to change their Sex ot meet their gender identity. It seems to be a good idea to be sure before making any changes. Just be yourself and be happy.

[Pat]

There is no requirement for "appropriate treatment" although that is one of the paths that can be used, in that case a GP can sign the relevant forms, stating which surgery has been completed.

Ah. I wasn't clear, sorry. "Appropriate treatment" under our rules could be as simple as seeing a gender counselor, if that's all you as a person need. Or it could go to full confirmation surgery -- that's up to the MD who writes the letter. It mirrors the WPATH V7 guidance that a transition is specific to the individual and can be non-binary in nature.




Pat, no offence but you don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum or anywhere.... and that's ok....your NB.....

The definition of TS specifically says
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

With that said your gender identity (according to you) is not male, not female... it's NB. So your identity is not opposite of your birth gender, and that right there makes you not TS......EVERYWHERE


No offense taken. I don't expect my view to resonate here right away. ;) But I'm thinking that the biggest factor of a binary TS's (humor me for a moment) transition isn't the surgery -- as already mentioned, there may be reasons why a given person can't get that. Those reasons don't invalidate the individual. The biggest factor, to me, is the complete life change, replacing the false gender with the correct one in unambiguous and pretty much irreversible steps. So to me I transitioned to my correct gender which is wholly different than the one assigned me at birth.The fact that in our culture that gender has no name at the moment is a clerical detail.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery.

Mirya, I respect both your right to hold and to express an opinion, but perhaps you could help me understand your point of view more clearly.

When I began my transition I was sure that I would have Gender Confirmation Surgery within 2 - 3 years at most. Unfortunately, I have diabetes and struggle to contain my weight which made the surgeons reluctant to consider me - did I cease to be transsexual at that point?

Since then I have developed hypothyroidism, hypertension and borderline pancreatitis meaning that the surgeons are now reluctant to offer me any surgery - even the cholecystectomy recommended to reduce my risk of developing cancer - is this when you consider that I ceased to be transsexual?

I began my transition over 7 years ago. Thanks to my previous standing in the community I was outed by the local press very early in my transition, that was picked up by the national and international press and went viral on the net (just google my name to see what I mean). Since then I have lived and operated unwillingly in the spotlight - even when I undertook a supposedly private attempt to be selected to stand for political office, it made it to the international press though not the rejection of the people who didn't want a TS candidate.

I have lived and worked as the woman I always knew myself to be since 1st July 2010 and very few people reject my status so by most people's definition I would be classed as transsexual.

My job entails supporting people with computer problems - most of them accept who I am. My work as a Trades Union representative involves me representing other people - no-one there has objected that I am a phoney.

In my unofficial work supporting abused women (most of whom are too scarred to trust a man), none has ever rejected me because I have not had the surgery that would make me whole.

I must admit that it saddens me to think that a member of this community does not accept me simply because I am unable to have any kind of surgical procedure.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Saddens me too.................................

[Nigella]

... so I've had medical intervention to make my body look right to me.
Would you mind saying what medical interventions you have had?


I've even changed the gender markers on my IDs.
I don't wish to assume, so would you mind saying what gender marker you now have?


So I've "transitioned" medically, socially and legally. The only reason I don't fit the definition of TS used in this forum is that I'm non-binary.
So if you have completed the "full transition" what have you transitioned to? Does your legal system allow you to have a gender definition of Non Binary?


So I transitioned to live as authentically as I can as a third gender in this two-gender society.
Is this third gender a legal recognised gender, I do know that there are moves afoot to allow people to declare themselves NB, but I'm not sure if there is anywhere that will accept this as a legal gender.




I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery.
That is your belief and it is not one that can be denied you, the flaw I find is that planning and doing are two completly different things


Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.
For some, and I count myself in this, the GD is not strong enought to "feel wrong". In my case my GD did not really kick in until my late 40s, up until then I was happy to live as a man, dressing as and when. Throughout my assessment I never felt that I "needed" anything, it was dealt with as and when, I was also mentally prepared for the worst case, so some can live with the deformities because their mental state helps them.


I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people
Yes there is a difference, but that is only in the mind, I felt for 40 odd years that I was a crossdresser, I lived with that, but later on realised that I was TS. I was not a different person going from CD to TS, nothing changed, just my view of my place on the TG spectrum


but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention.
In this I disagree, there are members here who still have their deformities, they accept them and live as women, they have dealt with the GD. What you may be describing is Body Dysmorphia, the inability to live with the body nature gave them.


And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.
I'm glad to see you recognise that it's OK to not experience the level of distress you describe and so may be able to avoid the turmoil of surgery. I respect your denial of non-op women as being TS, however, just read that last bit back again, NON-OP WOMEN means that you accept them as women, albeit with the birth deformities, but you will not accept that they are TS?


Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.
There is no need to apologise for having an opinion, I respect your view and yes I don't agree with it, that does not make it any more valid or invalid as the next persons.

[Pat]

Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention.

I don't dispute that the above is your opinion, but I also don't think you're on solid ground trying to evaluate my level of dysphoria without knowing anything about me. My dysphoria-issues were things that don't need invasive measures. Electrolysis and hormones have been working for me. I basically needed to change my facial hair (electrolysis) and body hair and shape (hormones) to overcome my dysphoria areas. Sure, if I had the disposable income I'd love to have breast augmentation surgery but having my tiny hormone-developed breasts moved my feelings from dysphoria to mere dissatisfaction. I can live with that. It only matters to me to know they're there - I'm not doing this for anyone else. And same, really, for FFS -- if I had the money, sure, why not? I'd like to be prettier; have an upper lip; pull my hairline forward. But when I look in the mirror I see a face not too far removed from other older women. It's dissatisfaction, not dysphoria. I get that TS folks have much worse dysphoria than I and they have it about things that don't bother me. It doesn't invalidate me. I can live with the differences because I'm not a woman, I'm a transgender person and I feel I look like I should. (Naturally, I hope there'll be greater changes from the hormones -- I've only been on a year -- but if there aren't, I'm not going to go into a self-harm spiral.)

Nigella -- for readability, I hope you don't mind if I collect your questions into one big quote and address them in order. I don't know of a technique that would let me preserve your quotes of me in my quote of you, so they'll look a little disjoint.


Would you mind saying what medical interventions you have had?


I don't wish to assume, so would you mind saying what gender marker you now have?


So if you have completed the "full transition" what have you transitioned to? Does your legal system allow you to have a gender definition of Non Binary?


Is this third gender a legal recognised gender, I do know that there are moves afoot to allow people to declare themselves NB, but I'm not sure if there is anywhere that will accept this as a legal gender.



My medical interventions are non-invasive - electrolysis, hormones and I suppose voice training might or might not count but it was with a speech therapist attached to a local hospital. (Edit:Thinking on it, I suppose therapy should also count as a medical intervention, so that too.)

Because I have shifted my presentation to the female and because it really upsets me to be reminded of having pretended to be male in my past, I had my gender markers changed to Female. That's still not correct, but it's like the instructions they give on some standardized exams: "If none of the available answers seem correct, choose the one that seems most correct." So that's what I did. What have I transitioned to? Again, there isn't a word for it. I accept "transgender person" as good enough for the moment. Neither male nor female but still possessing a stable gender. Being that thing transformed me from a very unhappy male-impersonator to an extremely happy "transgender person." And I think there are more people like me out there, though probably not as many as there are TS folks.

I'm not aware of a place in the US that offers a gender marker of transgender or non-binary or anything of that nature. One of our western states recently passed a law allowing people to choose a marker of "X" on their driver's license but the definition of X is "gender unspecified" -- it does not mean anything else. So, no, my "third gender" is not a legally recognized gender in the same sense that male or female are. The Massachusetts transgender rights law (currently under attack) does recognize that transgender people encompass more than just transsexuals and they recognize that folks like me can attest "appropriate treatment," which may or may not include therapy, hormones and/or surgery, and move from one gender marker to another, though they're pretty clear that they expect your marker to remain stable after changing. As I told the examiner at the Vital Statistics bureau, I won't be back unless Mass decides to authorize a gender marker for trans -- in that case he can expect to see me the next morning. ;)

[Teresa]

Nigella,
I'm heading to this situation myself in the next few months, when I separate from my wife and move into my home. I intend to dress as much as possible, I'm hoping it will finally provide me with the answers I've been asking for so long, as you remark, " Am I TS ?"

I know I'm living with GD and AGP, but up to now I haven't been able to think clearly because of my DADT situation.

Some reading this will probably say if you don't feel the deep need you're not TS , as you say you need to live the life .

[Heidi Stevens]

As I read the responses, I notice that there are so many perseptions on how we see ourselves as TG and TS. We all seem to suffer from GID, but how we get to a condition of peace and self assurance that we are "whole" is a variant as it can be. I tend to consider anyone living as a female full time, with legal name change, to be Trans sexual. All of the corresponding "extras" such as HRT, FFS and GRS are for that individual to achieve peace of mind. Some need it, some don't.
I'm still living as a male, for reasons I've explained before, and consider myself TG. I'm on HRT and I've had some facial hair removal, but I present as male. And I am happy where I am right now. Nothing is pushing me to go farther. I think that's the place we are all looking for and each of us must do what we have to to make that place in our lives.

[Kelly DeWinter]

OP ...... "just because birth defects are still present" .........

Is being born Male or Female a Birth Defect or is Gender Identity the Birth Defect ?

It's almost like "Which came first, the Chicken or the Egg ?"

Both sides of the question have been arguing this for years ?

[jentay1367]

I really do hate the birth defect analogy. It certainly represents something amiss, but birth defect? It's a smite to everyone that possesses one. It's a perfectly fine thing to possess if you want one. It's also an insult to every thalidimide afflicted child or person born with some physical abberation or another. In an age where we live as people that expect proper pronouns as well as sensitive language being used to describe us, we also need to show the same respect to others and their right to be shown respect. Using euphemisms like this one serve no one.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Nigella,
I'm heading to this situation myself in the next few months, when I separate from my wife and move into my home. I intend to dress as much as possible, I'm hoping it will finally provide me with the answers I've been asking for so long, as you remark, " Am I TS ?"

I know I'm living with GD and AGP, but up to now I haven't been able to think clearly because of my DADT situation.

Some reading this will probably say if you don't feel the deep need you're not TS , as you say you need to live the life .

This was my plan

After separating and getting the freedom to "Dress" my GD exploded
.....taking off my clothes became an exercise in shame and sadness...i was transitioning within 2 years..

[Rianna Humble]

I really do hate the birth defect analogy.

I understand your point of view, but it is a defect that impacted on my quality of life and even on my ability to function at all.

[Nigella]

I really do hate the birth defect analogy. It certainly represents something amiss, but birth defect? It's a smite to everyone that possesses one. It's a perfectly fine thing to possess if you want one. It's also an insult to every thalidimide afflicted child or person born with some physical abberation or another. In an age where we live as people that expect proper pronouns as well as sensitive language being used to describe us, we also need to show the same respect to others and their right to be shown respect. Using euphemisms like this one serve no one.

I disagree with your smite comment :) I did not point to anyone in particular when I described, in effect a penis, a lack of breasts, a prominent adams apple, no hips to speak of, etc, etc, so to me they were birth defects, but if you read that to be a view on anyone who does not have a "perfect" body, you are barking up the wrong tree.

To put it in perspective, my younger sister was born with meningitis, it left her with one side of her body partially paralysed, she has never had the use of her hand on that side, she has had to wear a caliper all her life, was she born with defects, hell no, she was born the way she was.

As I stated in my opening post
Of course this is only my opinion, it is as valid as yours, not anymore or any less. Take from this what you will unfortunately you appear to have taken my comment on birth defects as a general comment on anyone who was not born "perfect" as opposed to reading it as a personal view on having bits I did not want, or not having the bits I did.

[jentay1367]

Hi Nigella and Rianna, It certainly wasn't a dig at you. I'm sorry if either of you took it that way. I've heard the analogy used a bunch of times in our community and I just think it's inappropriate. That doesn't make either of you or anyone else wrong. It's simply my opinion and I was voicing it. I hope you haven't taken my comment personally as it certainly wasn't meant that way. With kindness, Jess

[Nigella]

Not at all Jess, I just wanted you to understand that the use of this analogy is based on my own view of my body. We all can take "offence" depending on how we read something and our mood at the time, but I try not to be offended by comments made in such an impersonal manner such as a forum

[Teresa]

Kaitlyn,
At the moment my wife is putting me in a strange situation, she thinks she can still have a DADT arrangement. She questioned if I would take tablets ( her words ), she is talking about me being available whenever to do her home maintenance, she thinks all I want is the freedom to dress freely inside my new home. She still doesn't grasp why I need this space, she can't accept the thought of me going out dressed more than I do now .

I guess after 42 years of marriage it will take some getting use to .

[jentay1367]

We all can take "offence" depending on how we read something and our mood at the time, but I try not to be offended by comments made in such an impersonal manner such as a forum

I will consider that information and learn from it. Thank you.

[Mirya]

Post #12 in this thread incorrectly attributes many quotes to me, when they were actually Pat's words. I'm sure it was just a mistake in formatting. :) I'd really rather not get bogged down in line-by-line replies here, as I feel that's better handled in a private conversation, but I do want to reply to one comment in particular:


I'm glad to see you recognise that it's OK to not experience the level of distress you describe and so may be able to avoid the turmoil of surgery. I respect your denial of non-op women as being TS, however, just read that last bit back again, NON-OP WOMEN means that you accept them as women, albeit with the birth deformities, but you will not accept that they are TS?


Yes, I accept non-op women as women, but not as TS. Why? Because I recognize the difference between gender and sex. Gender (i.e. gender identity) is the gender that we identify with in our minds and in our social roles. Sex has more to do with physical traits - biological and anatomical differences. This distinction is nicely illustrated in the popular Genderbread Person (https://www.genderbread.org/resource/genderbread-person-minimal-3-3)diagram.

In my view, gender identity always takes precedence over anatomical sex when addressing and treating someone as male or female. Therefore I will always, always respect and regard a female-identified person as a woman, regardless of physical traits. However, I'm unable to see them as a transsexual because the very word itself denotes someone who is sexually (i.e. anatomically) female.

Consider the word 'intersex'. Why do we use 'intersex' instead of 'intergender'? Because they were born with ambiguous physical (sex) characteristics. In the same way, I believe that the word transsexual should be used to describe a transgender woman who has or will have female anatomy.

edit: bold typeface in some words for emphasis

[Pat]

However, I'm unable to see them as a transsexual because the very word itself denotes someone who is sexually (i.e. anatomically) female.

Mirya -- Oh dear. OK, I see a problem with our ability to communicate because we have different definitions. To me the term 'transsexual' is an artifact of the days when people didn't know that there was a difference between sex and gender. They talked about people having "sex changes" which I think we all understand cannot happen. All we can do is change the appearance of our bodies to relieve dysphoria. So when you say transsexual, you mean people who have changed the appearance of their bodies in a very specific way. When I say transsexual I mean a transgender person with a strong sense of the binary whose internal sense of gender is that of a woman - full stop. To me, you don't have to do anything to be a TS -- you just have to have that internal gender.

It's interesting. I've never really run into anyone who viewed it that way, but since you do, I understand why we might talk at crossed purposes. I'm sorry I didn't understand before.

[LeaP]

Meh - pick your shorthand ... because that's what we are all doing here.

For me there are two great divides: binary cross-sexed identity, and sufficient pain to do something about it. The reasons for the latter (or lack of it) are many and complex, but one thing I keep in mind is that the type and intensity of the pain doesn't necessarily track with the firmness of the identity OR any actions taken. Clear as mud. But I'm really mostly concerned with those who share the basic condition, which is cross-sexed identity.

The shorthand? I have my own terms for various and sundry combinations of identity, pain, and actions - and some of them depend on the audience and circumstances. I even use some terms on occasion that I detest (like "transgender"). None of it means a lot. A few of them have very specific meanings in narrow contexts. But the only thing that REALLY resonates with me is credibility.

BTW - anyone who thinks Rianna isn't TS is nuts. Just my not so Humble (sic) opinion ... She's gone through a very public, personal hell and has more than enough credibility for me.

[Patty B.]

Love the post Nigella, well done.

[Nikki.]

Lea, how does "always wished to be" vs "always identified as" fit within your paradigm?

[LeaP]

Nikki, it depends entirely on the individual. Sometimes it's because the reality hasn't sunk in. It might be a form of repression or self-correction. Or it might indeed "just" be a wish, though if so, it probably indicates other issues.

Wishing can be quite unconscious, too. I wanted to be a nun(!) for many years - and the fact that I was male never occurred to me until a therapy session in my 50s, at which I suddenly broke out laughing at myself over the unrealized dichotomy. Undercurrents sometimes run unnoticed.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

all the talk about definitions ends up being what exactly??

i know that TS dogma of 70s and after hurt me... filled me with shame and emptiness... i was a transsexual who didint know it...how could i based on what people thought of transsexuals then?

finally i accept it..move on...destroy everything to build up...

and now my quaint binary notions are just a thing of the past!!

i support nb people completely...my dearest friend struggles with this... but i also have to say simply as a matter of form..

coming to ts forum and saying the term is an "artifact"
and in another post saying you are non binary TS...

the first sounds kind of sneaky nasty(coming from a person that uses the new up and coming trend NONBINARY!!)
and the second sounds kind of incoherent given the other statement..

[AmandaM]

For myself, I need definitions. It's something I use to try to figure myself out. Anything else is kinda nebulous and I always had the constant question, "what am I?". I've been defining TS and transgendered related but different. I consider transgendered to be more than a CDer. I consider a TS someone who desires the surgery. I'm only doing this to place myself. What do I know? I now know I'm not a CDer. I am transgendered. I don't know if I'm a TS yet. Working through therapy.

[Dana44]

I think we all know that we cannot change sex biologically. Surgery and other factors weigh in and the end of the day, we are still men. Body dysphoria make some seek surgery and it seems to put a chip on your shoulder that you and only you can be transsexual. But some are rightfully in their proper places and say they are TS. IF you are full time and have legally changed your sex to be who you are, isn't that enough. Pat is a woman in mind body and spirit. She is our TS in the non binary area and we have accepted her. We even have a GG girl that has joined us. She has her own struggles. I think this post by Nigella is nice and I think we should have opinions but not tear anybody down with a different opinion because you are too opinionated.

[Megan G]

I think we all know that we cannot change sex biologically. Surgery and other factors weigh in and the end of the day, we are still men. .
I am going to keep my mouth shut on this one but I am EXTREMELY FAR from still being a man..... and will leave it at that....


Pat is a woman in mind body and spirit. She is our TS in the non binary area and we have accepted her.
Actually Pat is not a woman, *they* do not identify as female, or male.... Pat identifies as NB so that excludes *them* from being a woman in their "Mind body or Soul".... and Pat, when you read this the *they* & *Them* is to attempt to use the proper pronouns..... :D

[LeaP]

Terms and definitions help for a while. You need to be able to articulate a concept to grasp it, to question yourself against it. Eventually the essence of what you are comes home and then the terms don't matter so much - as least as applied to yourself. You have to deal with the terminology to help others, however. Their specific usage doesn't matter as much as your understanding of what they're trying to convey.

[jentay1367]

Regardless of any of our self identification tags, we're all "sisters" and share the struggle of making ourselves understood by the "muggles". Threads like these are just infighting and parsing words. Kind of a futile and fruitless endeavor.

[Georgette_USA]

Just throwing my 2 cents worth.

Back in the 70s TS was the accepted name, made popular from Harry Benjamin's 1966 book (The Transsexual Phenomenon), and for all that I knew the path was full Transition. The name TS had not made it into the DSM II, it only listed TV.

The term TG had been named but was not really in much use.
Someone who was pushing for that was Virginia Prince, A Hetero Transvestite or Crossdresser. She felt that TG was good for people like her, That wanted to live as a women but wanted NO part of HRT and SRS.

I (and my partner) left the LGBT crowds behind in 1983, and we were just living our lives as two women.

Somewhere over time TS and TV/CD came under TG as an umbrella term. I guess to remove the idea that TS was a "sex change". Unfortunately to most non T people TG = TS. That plays into their whole questioning on surgeries, I and we know that those are personal choices and (other than potential sexual partners) no ones business.

Since I came back to the LGBT community in 2015, I have had to play catch up with all the new ideas. To me the idea of a Non-Op TS was weird.
So I can understand Mirya's viewpoint as far as what may be a TS or not. So I guess that leaves us with (Pre- Post- Non - Op) TS.
I have accepted that the whole TG identity can encompass many different people. I know some that don't think it refers to them as they have NO Gender Identity problem.

As a Binary person, the Non-Binary or other terms confuse me. And from some "they" do not identify as TS, but do put themselves in the TG.

Not sure why we here in this small community are debating what or who is a TS. I know some TG that do full transition and do not accept the name TS for them.
To me that is the most confusing, the T community constant arguing over all these terms / labels / identities.
Just like the arguing of the sexual terms of LGB and how they relate to the T world.

Some days I almost wish I could go back to my isolation of my world of just being another woman, and to the outside world, as that is just what I am.
And to my family I am just their Daughter and Sister and Aunt or Niece.

[Mirya]

I think we should have opinions but not tear anybody down with a different opinion because you are too opinionated.


...the end of the day, we are still men.

okay... lol

[Nikki.]

I think that was a Devo song (i'm dating myself :o )

[kimdl93]

The label debates go on and on. Many of us, myself included, try to walk the tightrope between acknowledging that we are TS or something other.

The truth is unique to each of us. Am I TS? Seems a simple question.

[Rianna Humble]

Surgery and other factors weigh in and the end of the day, we are still men.

Unless you are using the royal "we" that statement is insulting when used in the Transsexual Forum.

People don't transition because they are men born with a man's body. They transition either because they are women born with an apparently male body or because they are men born with an apparently female body.

Your espoused theory smacks of the rhetoric of Trans Exclusionary RadFems - people who set out to do harm to Trans people or to put them in harm's way. That I have suffered at the hands of TERFs is a matter of public record. This is why I can never support such an egregious slur.

Mirya,

It seems that your position is evolving from


I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both,

towards


I will always, always respect and regard a female-identified person as a woman, regardless of physical traits.[/i] However, I'm unable to see them as a transsexual because the very word itself denotes someone who is sexually (i.e. anatomically) female.

Which is even more hardline since you now exclude anyone who has only had FFS because the face is not a sexual organ.

Incidentally, where do either of your positions leave the transmen?

Both Dana and Myria, as Voltaire never said, I disagree with your opinion(s), but I will defend to the death your right to express it(them).

[Pat]

i support nb people completely...my dearest friend struggles with this... but i also have to say simply as a matter of form..

coming to ts forum and saying the term is an "artifact"
and in another post saying you are non binary TS...

the first sounds kind of sneaky nasty(coming from a person that uses the new up and coming trend NONBINARY!!)
and the second sounds kind of incoherent given the other statement..

Kaitlyn, sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to offend. What I was trying to say is that the "sex" in transsexual was an artifact of the times the term was coined. It was later that we understood that gender and sex were different.






She is our TS in the non binary area and we have accepted her.
Actually Pat is not a woman, *they* do not identify as female, or male.... Pat identifies as NB so that excludes *them* from being a woman in their "Mind body or Soul".... and Pat, when you read this the *they* & *Them* is to attempt to use the proper pronouns..... :D

First, Dana -- Thank-you. :) The acceptance is more important than the pronoun.

Megan -- And thank you for the pronouns. ;) Yes, nonbinary folks do not identify as women or men, which makes the whole pronoun thing difficult for everyone around them. I feel bad about it but it's all still in flux. I pretty much accept any pronoun that's used with respect, though I prefer "they." If "they" is difficult, I prefer "she" to "he" but I try not to let such things distract.

And to all, I didn't really come into your forum to cause trouble. The question was asked, "Are you TS?" and I felt it was fair to chime in to say that yes (in my mind) I am; I have many commonalities with you including full-time presentation in real life, irreversible physical changes and legal document changes. The place I fail the classic test is that I'm not a woman. (Admittedly, not a small difference.) Because my understanding of the term TS was gender-centric I viewed the completion of a full transition away from a false cis-male identity to a true non-binary one was comparable to a full transition from a false cis-male identity to a true transgender woman.

It's been an interesting discussion and I hope it has been interesting to everyone and not a problem. Part of the reason I floated the idea of a non-binary TS -- whether it ever catches on or not -- was that I have immense respect for the strength and commitment that TS people show. Most of my role-models are TS. So I hope you understand my posts are submitted with pure intentions. :love:

[Georgette_USA]

Pat, still not sure on your re-definition of the term TS.

I understand the new thinking that sex and gender are not the same, and why TG is preferred by many.
You said "When I say transsexual I mean a transgender person with a strong sense of the binary whose internal sense of gender is that of a woman - full stop." So why than did you call yourself a NB TS, since you say you are NB wouldn't it be more accurate to say NB TG person.

I have a strong binary sense of gender, which is why I still use my past as a Post-Op TS.

I have an issue with your idea of " irreversible physical changes and legal document changes" as that of "My medical interventions are non-invasive - electrolysis, hormones and I suppose voice training,...and Therapy". Those are all reversible with maybe a small amount of body changes from HRT.

Kaitlyn you said
"i know that TS dogma of 70s and after hurt me... filled me with shame and emptiness... i was a transsexual who didint know it...how could i based on what people thought of transsexuals then?"
As a TS of the 70s, Not sure of the TS dogma of the 70s meant to you, and what was it that people thought of TS back than that filled you with shame and emptiness. My family and work thought nothing wrong in my being TS and my doing something about it.

And Thank You Rianna, did not catch that Dana had said "we are still men", will not add anything else to that.

[Pat]

You said "When I say transsexual I mean a transgender person with a strong sense of the binary whose internal sense of gender is that of a woman - full stop." So why than did you call yourself a NB TS, since you say you are NB wouldn't it be more accurate to say NB TG person.

Hi Georgette -- that's my usual inability to express things clearly, I suppose. My understanding of TS is what I said. Taking that definition, I tried to pitch the idea of expanding it to include the non-binary concept of "third gender" people who follow the same path but are not women. Correct or not, that's how I model myself as I try to understand my journey. I know I'm not the only one like me. Maybe someone will find better words for it in the future.


I have an issue with your idea of " irreversible physical changes and legal document changes" as that of "My medical interventions are non-invasive - electrolysis, hormones and I suppose voice training,...and Therapy". Those are all reversible with maybe a small amount of body changes from HRT.

Electrolysis is irreversible, right? At least I hope so. And the changes from HRT may be small to you (they're large to me) but part of the warnings when you start is that they leave an indelible mark. Sure, those things aren't as permanent as having your brow ridge ground down by a surgeon or having your genitals reconfigured, but it seems a little weird to have a discussion of if changes are "permanent enough" to qualify. Permanent is permanent, right?

Yes, you can reverse the effects of therapy and voice training, I could probably get my name changed back and have another spin at my documents. I wasn't intending to suggest those were permanent for any of us, just that they were commonalities I share with this community. The fact that I'll never have your experience of being a woman and you'll never have my experience of feeling like a third gender doesn't mean we can't understand each other.


And Thank You Rianna, did not catch that Dana had said "we are still men", will not add anything else to that.

I know the words as words are painful. But I think Dana's thought wasn't addressing identity but simple genetics. These day we know gender cannot be changed -- that's why the medical community stopped listing our condition as a mental illness. But we also know that sex, in the biological/genetic sense cannot be changed either. I can't speak for her, but my reading of Dana is that she totally accepts your identity and was not trying to trigger anyone's dysphoria with her words.

[LeaP]

I use "male bodied" all the time, but only as a convenience (I NEVER use "man"). But even male bodied is problematic. Based on research over the last decade or so in particular, I understand the condition to be a form of physical intersexuality. Chromosomes are only one aspect of the sexual dimorphism ... and this isn't the same as genetics, by the way.

Nigella's OP is more about celebrating life than definitions per se.

[Georgette_USA]

Electrolysis is irreversible, right? At least I hope so. And the changes from HRT may be small to you (they're large to me) but part of the warnings when you start is that they leave an indelible mark. Sure, those things aren't as permanent as having your brow ridge ground down by a surgeon or having your genitals reconfigured, but it seems a little weird to have a discussion of if changes are "permanent enough" to qualify. Permanent is permanent, right?


Pat, I bear you no ill will, but I tend to be very literal at times, If we have names/terms/labels, we can't be changing them all the time, it only muddles the water.

I still don't see why the usage of NB TS, rather than NB TG. You said TS is a Binary definition, But you say you are "Non Binary" or "Third Gender", so these are not Binary. You can call yourself whatever you want, the trick is to get others to accept your re-definitions.

Actually if one stops HRT the effects on T may reverse to some degree. And if not than can take T to change some secondary characteristics. Not sure how much facial hair would start again, but male pattern baldness would start up again.
Depending on how much breast and other body effects may reverse some. One can have breast reduction if so inclined.

You talked about Permanent or Irreversible, so there maybe some changes. People that de-transition do reverse all that they can.

FFS and SRS/GRS/GCS are much more permanent. They can be reversed some, but not to the original specifications. I didn't bring in the idea of permanent changes.

Dana's remark did not trigger any Dysphoria with me, been at this too long to worry about that anymore.
But that is what many in the non-trans world (like TERFs) use with all their arguments. That all TS or TG are "still men", so therefore they can discriminate all they want, because to them Gender Identity is just a made up thing.
I would hope that in this forum that we ALL do not harbor the same ideas. Maybe that is why we still get into these arguments of CD vs TS and NB.

[Marcelle]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I'm of the belief that someone who is really a TS will have had or is planning on surgery. Now that could be either SRS or FFS or both, but I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a TS and at the same time be mostly content with their body such that they have no need to surgically alter it.

I went to a transgender support group meeting last night, and the vast majority of the attendees were CDs or NBs. As always, I enjoyed my time there and am happy to count many of them as friends, but there is still a difference between me (a TS) and them. Yes we are all transgender people, but the severe dysphoria that TS women experience can only be resolved through surgical intervention. And if someone doesn't experience that level of distress, that's ok, maybe even better since you don't have to put yourself through the emotional and physical trauma of invasive surgery, but in my mind I'm just unable to regard a completely non-op woman as a TS.

Sorry, but that's my opinion and I hope you can respect my point of view even if you don't agree.

Mirya,



Your opinion is yours which is one I doubt I will change. However, it is one I don’t agree with.

To be honest, I don’t consider myself trans “anything”. Legally I am female right down to my birth certificate. I am a woman now but then again, I always have been a woman. Unfortunately, I was just dealt a very bad hand in the genetic card game of life, and one I have actively chosen (for my own reasons) not to correct. Why you may ask? Simply put, my body and facial feature do not define me as a person and they sure as heck do not define me as a woman. Yup, the kid’s not pretty and she may be sporting the wrong plumbing but she is still all woman. However, if I have to wedge myself into a category in response to your posted reply . . . I am TS.

I understand your POV. You believe that unless you are going to change your sex (or facial features) then you are not transsexual. While I understand that stance in theory (trans = crossing over ergo transsexual is crossing over to another sex), IMO, you are applying a draconian interpretation to a term which I think we can all agree has evolved over time. Yes, a literal translation of the word would imply you want to change your sex and that was the basis of Benjamin’s levels back in the day. However, a more liberal approach would be that aligning your gender with who you are and living as that gender is by definition . . . crossing over to the other sex. IMO, you are getting hung up on the word “sex” as the defining characteristic for gender (i.e., vagina = woman / penis = man). If we follow this logic, you seem to imply that unless you change your sex, you can never truly be a man or a woman irrespective of you gender identity. As such, your very statement seems to invalidate those who identify as a woman or a man but do not undergo surgical procedure ergo, they are not truly men or women.

I know, you are going to say that you weren’t trying to invalidate me as a woman you just don’t see me as TS. However, when you start to differentiate between “them” and “us” within a category, IMHO, you are implying that the “them” are somehow fundamentally different and as such, don’t belong or have nothing of worth to add to the discussion. I am very saddened by this “us/them” mentality which seems to land in this section from time to time and one of the reasons why I stopped posting here. While this may not have been your intention and if I am wrong I apologize in advance . . . when you set yourself above others (I am TS because I have had surgical procedures and you are not TS because you have not done what I have done), you in essence invalidate my existence in the community. If I am not TS then what am I? A man who thinks he is a woman but can’t commit? The reason I find this stance maddening is that somehow you believe that by virtue of the fact that I have not undergone surgery, I haven’t shed enough blood or suffered enough to be considered a woman. Each day I leave the house, I wonder if this is the day someone is going to take exception to my existence and attack me (verbally or physically) because I am not pretty enough. I potentially blew up my entire life by coming out, it worked out in the end but there was a price. So yes, I do get defensive when someone implies I am not trans enough. Believe me, I have suffered and I have lost.

I will admit, your use of the term “non-op woman” did irritate me. Again, it may not have been your intention but it does imply that somehow a post-op woman is more of a woman than someone you refer to as a “non-op woman” (is that even a thing?). It boggles my mind that we feel obliged to invent categories within categories. Is it to justify some pecking order of who has more street cred? Does a post-op TS woman have more street cred than a pre-op TS or a “non-op woman? IMO this belief that one is more credible than the other as a woman because they have done/completed XY and Z and the other has not is very elitist.

My final grievance with your post was the assertion that only those who undergo surgery suffer from a severe dysphoria that those who do not undertake surgery can never fathom. I hate to be a naysayer, but dysphoria is dysphoria and when I experienced mine it brought me to a very dark place if you know what I mean (if you doubt my voracity on this point, PM me and I will provide the details). IMO, that assertion was very callous as it implies that somehow my dysphoria was a cakewalk , which I can assure was not the case.

So in the end, I don’t agree. If someone has taken the steps to live their life authentically as their target gender, they are as TS as anyone who undergoes surgical procedures. The only difference is level of comfort with one’s own body and how that defines them as a person. For some, surgery is a requirement and a potential lifesaving procedure and nobody here would argue that point. For others it is not required and I would expect the same level of consideration when deciding who is TS and who is not.

[LeaP]

Not everyone has dysphoria, at least as understood by most.

[donnalee]

It comes down to definitions, which change with time, circumstance and experience. As of yet, nothing has been written in stone and until the terms can be defined the same for everyone, these arguments are inevitable as no one has a clear idea of what another is saying.
The good part of this conflict is that this is how definitions are born; it's a necessary process, and no one should get too upset by it

[LeaP]

... as no one has a clear idea of what another is saying. ...

It's usually quite clear what people mean. Unfortunately, the discussion (or argumentation) over terms is more a matter of community politics. One view of that is inclusion vs exclusion. A countervailing concern is erasure. There are other competing facets as well, of course, but no-one should accept that this is "just" semantics.

[Rianna Humble]

OK enough discussion about whether we should use definitions or not.

Let's get back to the intention of the OP!

Help me out here, folks, don't make me close the thread or have to do wholesale deletions.

However, a warning: the next post that is more interested in discussing the standardisation of terminology or lack thereof earns themselves a deletion and possibly an infraction and/or more serious moderation.

Now back to the question in the OP: Are you TS?

Rianna Humble
Moderatrix

[LeaP]

Now back to the question in the OP: Are you TS?



Cross-sexed gender ID, psych intervention (including diagnosis on my medical record and HRT referral), and 5 years HRT. As Nigella put it in her OP, "take from this what you will."

[Mirya]

Am I a transsexual? That was the very last question I was able to answer for myself.

Two years ago I decided to go to a local transgender support group. I met other trans people for the first time ever. It was quite an experience! Being treated and seen as a woman just felt so right to me, if only for those few hours in safe spaces.


Within a few months, I pre-paid for a year of laser hair removal and started right away. But I told everyone I wasn't transitioning - I just didn't want to have facial hair.
A few months after that, I had consultations with a few surgeons about getting a rhinoplasty, because I wanted my nose to look more feminine. The change was dramatic, and I was happy with the result. But I kept telling everyone I wasn't transitioning - I just wanted to have a more feminine face.
A month after my rhinoplasty, I started taking HRT. I told the doctor that I wasn't sure if I wanted to transition; that I just wanted to try HRT for a month or two to see how it would make me feel. She wrote me the prescription. But I still told everyone I wasn't transitioning.


Finally, one of my trans friends said to me, "Mirya, you've had months of laser hair removal, you've had a rhinoplasty, and you're on HRT - you may say you're not transitioning, but you already are!" And I was like, "no, I'm not transitioning!" Some of my friends suggested I see a therapist, so after a month on HRT (still wasn't sure at this point, lol) I decided to talk to a local gender therapist. I was really skeptical that he'd be able to help me out but I decided to give it a try. Within just 3 sessions over the course of 2 weeks, I opened my eyes to see the truth and finally admitted to myself that I'm a woman; that I'm a transsexual.

So you see, for me, medical and surgical intervention wasn't something I had to ponder or struggle with. At all. These things just came naturally to me. I never gave a second thought to them and simply did them because they felt like the right thing to do. I realize most people are not like me - I'm very weird!! But I hope by sharing a bit about my story you can better understand my perspective.

(BTW, I had additional FFS for the rest of my face a year ago - just 7 months after starting HRT. I am flying to Thailand for SRS in a few months from now. And I am going to get a BA next spring/summer)

[LeaP]

Oh yeah, forgot electrolysis. About 160 hours or so.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

if youve done electrolysis under your nose

...then you are TS... ouch

[LeaP]

... not to mention a bit INTO the nose. EEEYYOWWWW!

[AllieSF]

And in the ears and around the eyebrows!!

[Megan G]

In the ears? No experience in that area but damn that had to hurt

[Nikki.]

yeah....basically confirming i'm going to start laser this winter while the hair under (and in) my nose is still dark. my chin however...

[Dana44]

I had my ears laser done. Still it did not get rid of all the hair. I am going to start electrolysis as I have a lot of white hair;. . But I am plucking the hair out of my ears and tried a few on my face also. Looks like that works. But that would take a long time. In the old days like in France they used to pluck the hair from their body.

[Nikki.]

Back to the original question...as much as it scares me to admit it, yeah I'm pretty sure I am. I'm going to force myself to be very slow in actualizing it, for a few reasons.

[KymberlyOct]

Your OP was very well said Nigella. There are many reasons that people don't have surgery. Money, health issues or even choice. As for myself health issues may be a barrier to vaginoplasty. I have discussed it with my cardiologist and others. I am borderline at best. I did have an orchiectomy in July does that make me less of a woman than someone someone who has had vaginoplasty? I guess some would argue yes but I disagree. Because with that logic I am more of a woman than someone that cannot afford an orchie. That's ridiculous.

It's in your brain. It's how you live. It's if you come out to the world and say this is who I am. In short you are the person that you say you are.

[jentay1367]

It's in your brain. It's how you live. It's if you come out to the world and say this is who I am. In short you are the person that you say you are.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Those who would deny us this have a hidden agenda I can't understand.