What is the problem?

[Jillian310]

I was mall walking the other day en femme, dressed in black fishnet hose, black garter belt, black mini, large pull over sweater, falsies, and in full make up. As I was nearing the end of my regimine, I noticed that a security guard was following me. I overheard him say to his walkie talkie, "Should I place her/him in custody?" (I can't remember exactly how he desribed me.) He continued to follow me as I was then leaving the mall, and as I looked back I could see that another guard had joined him, and I got the distinct feeling they were watching me get into my car and leave. I did not use any restrooms while I was there, and I didn't purchase anything or speak to anyone else. My look was a bit trashy, but I like to dress that way a lot.

I have placed a few inquiries on the web asking if there is any law in Pennsylvania that prohibits presenting ones self in public in drag. So far I have not had any responses.

I intend to return to that mall in a more conservative outfit to see what happens. I would be peased to know if anyone is familiar with this situation in Pennsylvania.

[Butterfly Bill]

You description of your costume make it sound like the apparel worn by women who stand by the side of the street and hope someone driving by will stop and discuss business. They may have thought you were planning to use their mall as a regular place to seek johns. Yes, I definitely would dress more conservatively. (And not return there for quite a while). Look at what the (real) women are wearing there and dress likewise.

[Kimberley]

I agree Bill, I always thought the idea was to blend in with the environment.

I dont know about the legal avenues in Pennsylvania, but all they would have to do would be to hold you on suspicion of shoplifting to make life miserable. Not worth the risk in my books.

Kimberley

[jessicam]

Never had that problem
but I keep a low profile most of the time when i do go the mall near where i live in California i think you should go in and ask to speak with the manager of Security for the Mall and just say something like my sister or girlfriend was followed the other day by security for wearing this and descibe what You were wearing try not to be revealing about it was you just a thought if you felt uncomfortable or that you felt threatened you need to let the mall management know that security is/ or was making a customer feel uneasy even if you were dressed a bit trashy. and did the security follow anybody else or did you see anybody else beside security point you out like another customer and that is my thought on that

jessica

[JoannaDees]

I don't think it had anything to do with how you were dressed, at least in the women's clothing arena. Some women will dress provocatively ... those not snowed by our Puritan society. I think it was they thought you were a guy, and they were being narrow minded, you were a pervert. If it was a hot, obvious woman, they would not have done what they did.

I need to rant. I should join the political group again.

[genevieve]

first i must commend you on your ability to dress the way you desire and go to a public forum, a mall. there should be no law against your attire nor your behavior. am so afraid to go out dressed in a public arena albeit dressed ****ty as i enjoy to do. if i were to go to a mall dressed, surely i would begin with a conservative below the knee dress with fishnets and 4" heels. i would like to think that if you went back to the mall dressed somewhat conservative and approached the security with this issue that it would be resolved in a fashionably manner, meaning that the security would apologise and vow to never let this happen again to you or any other person again!

You weren't packing a box cutter were you? am from PA too, may your next mall experience be pleasant!

[Melinda G]

While shopping malls are open to the public, they are private property, and they probably don't want hookers of either gender making their mall a regular stop. If you go looking for trouble, you can usually find it. A little common sense goes a long way toward avoiding trouble.
You could concievably be arrested, taken to a police station, exposed to the media, and released hours or days later without charges. Quite a price to pay, to prove a point. Do you really want to spend a couple hours in a holding cell with a few thugs, while the cops decide what to do with you.
It's not out of the question for them to hold you for 48 hours and make you undergo a psychiatric exam, before they release you.

[Denise01]

I was in a mall yesterday and had no problems at all.
This time of the year where I live, about 99% of the girls wear slacks, so when I am femme shopping i will wear them too, so as to blend in.
Just because one is wearing slacks, if you are shoppig and want to try on a skirt or suit, most sales girls will be pleased to assist, as if they are not on commission, their sales are tracked, so the more the better.

Denise

[DonnaT]

First off, security guards do not have the authority to arrest you for CDing, period. There job is mall security. If you did nothing wrong in the mall, then they have no right to detain you.

Call the mall management and let them know what happened. Management can prevent you from being on the property crossdressed, and can detain you for tresspassing if you were warned previously told not to be there.

If not personna non grata and you are detained, go quietly and make sure to let them know you are going to sue. Then sue them and the mall.

[Julia Cross]

While I don't think the outfit you described was the wisest choice to wear to a mall, it still doesn't give anyone the right to harass you. It's unfortunate but it's a reality that you were taking a chance. It does sound like two idiots looking for a reason to harass another person for daring to be different.

But, I feel you need to use a little more judgement in your choice of apparel and when to wear it. That's reality. Had you been a woman, especially one with an average figure as well, you could just as easily have been harassed this way. That's reality as well. If one dresses provactively you run the risk of drawing attention, both positive and more likely negative. THAT"S REALITY.

If the mall is not too large and you run the risk of crossing paths with the security gaurds in dress or not, I would suggest not going back for a while. They will remember you, possibly even in drab.

Julia

[kathy gg]

Just qouting what you said:
"My look was a bit trashy, but I like to dress that way a lot."

If you look like trash they will treat you that way, crossdressser or gg.

I have rarely seen gg's dressed that way in a mall. Unless they are goth kids, and really they travel in packs at our mall. And I think most adults know that kids will be kids. I have yet to see a teen get harrassed for loitering in the food court dressed that way.

Have you ever thought of going to a fetish night or something along those lines dressed that way?

I won't lie, I like to have fun with my wardrobe as well. But I know if I wore my gothic corset, pvc skirt and fishnets to a mall that I would get harrassed. Common sense. There is a time and place to dress that way.

As sadi above, if you go looking for trouble, and dressed that way is a great start to that, you will find it.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I was mall walking the other day en femme, dressed in black fishnet hose, black garter belt, black mini, large pull over sweater, falsies, and in full make up. My look was a bit trashy, but I like to dress that way a lot.

Bad Tranny! That's the nickname some of us give to trannies like you.

Jeebus. you were asking for trouble dressed in a fetishy exhibitionist manner akin to that of a two bit tart. In case you haven't figured it out, ****ty exhibitionist CD's get hassled, CD's dressed appropriately don't get hassled. The guards saw it this way: you were engaging in sexually oriented "gleam in your eye" activity in a public place.

When's the last time you saw a genetic woman wearing clothes like yours in a mall.... I would bet never. Especially not one 67 years old. If you're going to go out in public you need to get out of your ****ty "I'm so full of sexy sexyness" fantasy land. Wear want you want in private, but in public it's different.



I have placed a few inquiries on the web asking if there is any law in Pennsylvania that prohibits presenting ones self in public in drag. So far I have not had any responses.

There's no laws against public crossdressing anywhere that I am aware of. However there are laws against indecent exposure (Were your stocking tops showing by chance?) and prostitution.



I intend to return to that mall in a more conservative outfit to see what happens.

Why didn't you dress that way in the first place. Where was your common sense. Jeebus.... CD's can be their own worst enemies. Didn't you think about the consequences? How people might react? Because of what you did, the next appropriately dressed CD at that mall might get increased attention and scrutiny. What if that CD was a first timer? Does she deserve to be punished for what you did?

We need to nip this sort of behavior in the bud. How can you expect respect, if you don't dress appropriately And the people encouraging the "****dressers" with the "You look so sexy and passable" stuff are not helping our cause.

Don't be a "bad tranny" don't enable the "bad trannies" And before anyone says I'm being mean or non-supportive, it seems to me the "bad trannies" only start getting it when you hit them over the head with it hard.


Veronica

[Julia Cross]

Well said Veronica. You are absolutely right.

Julia

[Lindsay Marie]

There is no law against dressing in drag in PA, however as one other poster put it if your stocking tops are showing that may be considered indecent exposure in some jurisdictions. I suggest in the future however if you intend to go back en femme try to do it more conservatively. The police will always hassle anyone dressed like a street girl, after all profiling individuals is what they do best. Jillian, PM me and let me know where it was, I'm from south central PA and I'm curious to know.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I don't think it had anything to do with how you were dressed, at least in the women's clothing arena.

It had everything to do with how she was dressed. If Jill had been dressed like DanaJ, Marlena, Jodi or any of the "ladies" who know how to dress with decorum and style she wouldn't have been hassled.


Some women will dress provocatively ... those not snowed by our Puritan society.

Sure, but not in a shopping mall and not if they're 68 going on 69.


I think it was they thought you were a guy, and they were being narrow minded, you were a pervert. If it was a hot, obvious woman, they would not have done what they did.

Guards might react more harshly to a CD dressed like a **** than a genetic woman but still any GW dressed like Jill would have got security on her case too. I have never seen any GW dress in a mall the way Jill did. Not even the teenagers or college aged women.


Veronica

[Rikkicn]

First off, security guards do not have the authority to arrest you for CDing, period. There job is mall security. If you did nothing wrong in the mall, then they have no right to detain you.

Call the mall management and let them know what happened. Management can prevent you from being on the property crossdressed, and can detain you for tresspassing if you were warned previously told not to be there.

If not personna non grata and you are detained, go quietly and make sure to let them know you are going to sue. Then sue them and the mall.

Shouldn't we be allowed to dress the way we want and go into public spaces? We should not have to dress down in order to go where we want with out harrassment by security guards! This was wrong!
Granted if we dress provacatively then we can expect attention but not harrassment.
If we don't stand up for our selves and support each other then who will? And how will progress be made?
Rikki

[christine55]

The security probably would have given the same treatment to a GG dressed the same. They seriously discourage hookers in malls.
Hugs, Christine

[kathy gg]

So wearing a bathing suit or bikini to the mall is okay? Wearing full fetish gear to a public library, is not a problem either?

Sorry, I think people need to excercise intelligence when they are in public spaces.

I dont' want to say I condone 'harrassement', because I don't. But when people are dressed to get 'attention' they usually will get it. And when dressed that way, you have to realize that it will usually not be the good kind.

Also, you dont' have to dress down....plenty of cd's have dressed attractively and even a bit over the top for mall visits, but I bet they did not get this sort of reaction. You can wear heels, a dress to the mall, you will get noticed, but probably not as a possible prostitute.

Fishnets, stocking tops showing are just not appropriate for the mall. If you are a grown up most know better.

There are places to wear these clothes, the mall is not that plac. What is so wrong with that?





Shouldn't we be allowed to dress the way we want and go into public spaces? We should not have to dress down in order to go where we want with out harrassment by security guards! This was wrong!
Granted if we dress provacatively then we can expect attention but not harrassment.
If we don't stand up for our selves and support each other then who will? And how will progress be made?
Rikki

[JoAnnDallas]

There is only one place I know of where I have seen a GG wearing clothing like that in public and I just put it in context as to where I was and that was Las Vegas. Last time I went there there was a young lady waiting for someone at the airport gate and she was dressed very tarty. Fishnets, high heels and all. Everyone coming off my plane noticed her. But I don't think even she would have been seen in even a mall in Las Vega that way. Then too she was at the airport dress that way.

[JULIES]

HI THIS TOPIC IS MY AREA.I CAN TELL YOU THERE ARE NO OFFENCES IN THE UK, TO DRESS IN DRAG IN PUBLIC.HOWEVER IF YOU CAUSE ANYONE HARRASMENT ALARM OR DISTRESS eg USE A LADIES BATH ROOM THATS DIFFERENT.I WOULD BLEND IN AND KEEP MY HEAD DOWN!,THAT WAY YOUR SAFE.
LUV JULIES.

[DonnaT]

Shouldn't we be allowed to dress the way we want and go into public spaces? We should not have to dress down in order to go where we want with out harrassment by security guards! This was wrong!
Granted if we dress provacatively then we can expect attention but not harrassment.
If we don't stand up for our selves and support each other then who will? And how will progress be made?
Rikki

Note that a mall is not a public space. It is privately owned and they have the right to enforce a dress code. For example, some malls I know of don't permit gang style bandanas to be worn inside.

With regard to public spaces, yes we have the right to wear what we want as long as it's not indecent and there is no local ordinance prohibiting such dress in public.

I'd be the last person to tell someone what to wear or not wear in public. I don't want anyone telling me not to wear a skirt, so I'm not going to tell anyone not to wear a bikini, for example. I may wish it wasn't done, for the sake of hoping to gain TG acceptance in society, but I won't try to prevent it.

[Cathy Anderson]

I agree with Kathy and Veronica here.

Jillian, you have to be honest and fair about it: a private shopping mall is not your personal playground. This isn't a question about unfair treatment. It's about good judgment. All in all, I think it turned out well. You got the wake up call you needed.

Kathy's analogy to goth kids is right on. And its the same issue, except you should know better.

Yes, you have the right to flaunt authority.
Yes, you have the right to defy convention.
Yes, nobody can tell you what to do.

But if you know that, what's the point of making your "statement" over and over again. At some point it just turns into a hostile thumbing of your nose towards others.

Please get with the program ;)

Cathy

[kathy gg]

Gonna post one last thought to this thread. I actually run a shopping service in Toronto for cd's. I had a client last summer who was into a 'sissy' look. He wanted to wear multiple petticoats and tights and that sort of stuff. Not 'my' bag, but he wanted to be taken shopping that way. I told him there was only one area of town that he could dress that way which I was okay with going along. But he was hi-ho on going to a mall that way, and I flat out said, he was welcome to go for it, but not with me. I would take him dressed appropriatly for the mall en femme or in boy mode, but not at this 'fantasy' attire. He ultimatly agreed to dress as a male to the mall. He then got to wear his fantasy clothing to the more bohemian/artsy alternative part of the city. And people did look, they did stare, but at the shops I took him to this was nothing shocking at all to the staff. They see that and more happen in their stores. But at a mall...no way.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Also, you dont' have to dress down....plenty of cd's have dressed attractively and even a bit over the top for mall visits, but I bet they did not get this sort of reaction. You can wear heels, a dress to the mall, you will get noticed, but probably not as a possible prostitute.

In central Illinois the women who are dressed up at the mall are almost always wearing "career wear" so if a CD want's to do dressy, just wear a nice suit, jacket dress. Dressy office wear, kind of like this:

http://home.mchsi.com/~VeronicaMoonlit/pics/picture_it_edited_wardrober.jpg

Or less dressy worn for a Tri-Ess Halloween party as a "soccer mom" Twin set, knee length skirt, opaque tights, chunky heeled loafers. I've worn a similar outfit Christmas shopping, no problems at all.


Upstate the shopping emporiums seem to actually be dressier, there seems to be a higher proportion of dressed up women, when I was shopping there I was actually glad I had dressed up

Plenty of options for a CD who doesn't want to dress down.

Veronica

[MsJanessa]

Like the other ladies here have said he probably thought you were a hooker turning tricks---next time make the skirt a little longer and go with regular stockings, not fishnets you probably won't be bothered--when I go to the mall I don't dress like I am in My avatar---its always longer skirts, shorter heels, light on the leather and make up and conservativly styled hair.

[KathrynW]

My look was a bit trashy, but I like to dress that way a lot.
hmmmm...is there really any question why you were under surveillance? They may have thought some guy was wearing a disguise to rob some place.

[KathrynW]

Shouldn't we be allowed to dress the way we want and go into public spaces?
Absolutely Not.
This same type of issue was discussed here a few months back...
the cd dressed in a little girl's party dress in a public restaurant...
It's unacceptable. Dress appropriate for the environment you're in. End of story.

[Bonnie Jean]

I,ve worked security off and on over the years and in some states they do have the option of detaining you and arresting you for being a public nuisance. The mall owners want to keep a certain image and there security is their in part to enforce that image. right or wrong that is the way they do business.

[Rikkicn]

I discussed this thread with my wife last night and she said the comments remindered her of women being victims of rape.
It used to be that a woman was blamed for being raped if she was wearing provocative clothing, walking sexy and out alone late at night(among other things). This is still true in many places and court rooms.
The fact is, the raper is the one to blame. Not the victim! The raper has all the power and no control over it
Women, GG's and TG's should be allowed to wear what the want, go where they want with out being harrassed, arrested or abused in any way, period!
We must learn to treat others with respect at all times and accept and embrace diversity, unconditionally.
Unrealistic...sadly it is, but I've set my goals very high and lead my life accordingly. It's the least I can do to be of value.

Love to all
Rikki

[Rikkicn]

Absolutely Not.
This same type of issue was discussed here a few months back...
the cd dressed in a little girl's party dress in a public restaurant...
It's unacceptable. Dress appropriate for the environment you're in. End of story.

Who gets to decide what's appropriate? I've seen women in all manner of dress in restaurants and malls. To me some of them were not appropriate but that's me. It's not my place or right to decide for others what's appropriate for them.
Remember that to many in our culture we are not appropriate, TG's etc. Many think we should not be at all. Others think we should go back in the closet and stay there because we're not appropriate. It doesn't matter to them how well we are dresed and how good our make up is. We are just wrong and should not exsist.
Love to all
Rikki

[Billijo49504]

I personally don't go out in trashy dress. But if the security lays a hand on you, they better have a good reason. That would be considered a citizens arrest. At least that is what I was told by the state police, when we did security at a camp grounds and golf course. Luckily we only had to do that one time. A man was beating his wife. He went to jail. He told the cop, he was teaching her to have supper ready on time. Yes, he was drunk.

[azure]

If your going to visit a busy place, dress like al the other women a dressed, take into account the weather, and use a very simple combination of clothes to simply blend in with all the other girls. It makes you feel more confident and calm, and enjoy the whole experience of shopping for pretty clothes to wear, and feel good in.

Its been a while but I came back, and yes I purged it all,and no the thoughts dont go away.

[KathrynW]

Who gets to decide what's appropriate?
C'mon, we're all adults here, Right? A little common sense goes a long way.
A cd dressing like a hooker in a mall is ok? I think not...

[KathrynW]

You weren't looking ugly were you?
That attracts attention.
Julie...go stand in the corner...:p

[Mandy Salamander]

certainly agree with Kathryn,,, whatever happened t' good common sense???,,,,, i never go out dressed inappropriately and have never had such a problem,,, then again,, i've never gone t' th' mall en femme, 'n NOT bought anything, either!!!

[Julie Avery]

Quite right...sorry...won't happen again.



:D

Yeah, right. Hopefully it happens often ;)

[Sharon]

If a GG walks into a mall looking like a hooker, then she's going to attract all sorts of attention. It won't be any different for us.

[Rikkicn]

If a GG walks into a mall looking like a hooker, then she's going to attract all sorts of attention. It won't be any different for us.
I totally agree and still neither the GG or the cd should be harrassed, arrested, detained, questioned or followed.

[KathrynW]

I totally agree and still neither the GG or the cd should be harrassed, arrested, detained, questioned or followed.
you can't have your cake and eat it too....:straightface:

[Karyn]

I've gone out in super short skirts, high heels, fishnets, etc., but only for a drive in the car or to a place where I wasn't going to be in a crowd or up close with others. Any time I'm going to be where there are other people close by, I always try to dress to their level - it's just common sense. I will say that the short skirts are more fun, you just gotta be careful about where you are!

[Rikkicn]

you can't have your cake and eat it too....:straightface:

That's not an unreasonable position. there is big difference between attention and harrassment.

[Jillian310]

i have posted thoughtful comments twice, but they have been zapped. Why?

[Jodi]

Jillian, I don't perceive the above posts as you being zapped. You asked a question, and they gave your their answers. If I may ask, What mall was it? I have shopped in most every mall in the Pittsburgh area enfemme and have never had a problem. But--I dress to fit the part. I like my leather. I have worn fishnets. I also like my high heels. But--I would never wear an outfit as you described to a mall. When shopping, I most always wear 3-1/2" heels, but I wear them with dressy pants, jeans or a knee length skirt. I'm sure I'm read at times, but no undue attention is given. The phrase "common sense" was used. Nuf said.

Jodi

[KateW]

HI THIS TOPIC IS MY AREA.I CAN TELL YOU THERE ARE NO OFFENCES IN THE UK, TO DRESS IN DRAG IN PUBLIC.HOWEVER IF YOU CAUSE ANYONE HARRASMENT ALARM OR DISTRESS eg USE A LADIES BATH ROOM THATS DIFFERENT.I WOULD BLEND IN AND KEEP MY HEAD DOWN!,THAT WAY YOUR SAFE.
LUV JULIES.

Actually, I don't think it is illigal in the UK to use the toilets of the opposite sex. It is entirely down to the descretion of the establishment as to whether they "allow it". Of course, if you are in male-mode, you will almost definately run into problems.

[rhonda jane]

Call in advance, if you think they read you the first time. Tell them you want to take a picture and ask if they can get a guard to do it for you. Have fun. Send a copy of the photo to us. Make things up if necessary.

[Jillian310]

Jodi, Wow, you really missed the point of my last post. I wrote two long, thoughtful observations about the previous posts, and they were zapped and not added. Hugs

[Snookums]

Jillian,sounds as if the mall security guard was indoctrinated by the Taliban.:mad:people forget the teachings of Jesus,"judge not lest thee be jidged",or was it "ye who be without sin,cast the first stone",I can never get them right.

[DanaJ]

i have posted thoughtful comments twice, but they have been zapped. Why?Jillian - none of your posts have been deleted or edited in any manner whatsoever in this thread..... so, I am not sure what you mean by being "zapped".

[miss_sarah]

Who gets to decide what's appropriate? I've seen women in all manner of dress in restaurants and malls. To me some of them were not appropriate but that's me. It's not my place or right to decide for others what's appropriate for them.

Exactly, none of us do, directly. Our elected officials, actually, make those calls. From legislators to judges on the bench. It's the broad term "community standards". I deal with this issue all the time - in a bit of a different context - in the adult internet industry. What's perfectly acceptable in, say, California (by "community standards") may very easily be considered lewd, lascivious, and obscene in Kansas. Just like many things, more outrageous (perhaps even shocking) things are more likely acceptable in more liberal places. Certain areas of larger cities, etc. Smaller conservative towns in the bible belt? No way.

Basically, I guess I'm saying dress appropriate to not only the venue, but dress appropriate to the venue in context of the local community standards. Even malls, I imagine, aren't nearly as conservative in other areas as those here in hicksville...