LGBT Safe Space Signage in my Office

[Julie Slowinski]

My first time out en femme was in the Capital Hill area of Seattle - mostly to the drag clubs in the evening. However, while out in drab during the day I noticed that every establishment had some sort of safe space signage. While I've seen those signs before, this was the the first time I had experienced the comfort that such signs can bring to a person by letting me know that I was not going to be judged while in this establishment. The fact that I was not en femme at the moment didn't matter...it was a feeling that I was welcome to be whoever I wanted and dress anyway I wanted and these folks would be okay either way. I had never felt so welcome in my entire life.

So, on my trip back home I decided that I needed to get a safe space sign for my office. I have a lot of visitors and who knows what they are up to in their personal lives. And, while I don't expect it to prompt any discussions, I do expect it will provide some quiet comfort to at least some of my visitors. In addition, it might signal to others (not in the LGBT community), that it is okay maybe even noble to be an ally of this group. I had thought that such a sign might out me with co-workers, but for God's sakes it's 2017 and showing such support is quite common in mainstream society. If any coworker asks about it I'll just say it's the right thing to do - I'm known for being being a bleeding heart liberal around the office so I don't expect anyone will even bat an eye. If it would seem out of your character, I'm sure you could come up with some story about a niece or cousin came out to the family and you are just trying to show support for a loved one.

I work at a fairly large organization with a stated policy toward tolerance, so I decided I should get an officially sanctioned sign. To my surprise, I was told that they would not give me one of these signs until I went through a one hour training course on tolerance, and the next course would not be for a few months. The course was actually quite informative and I learned a lot. It actually included a packet with lots of definitions and terminology that I was not aware of (although I did already know quite a bit of that information beforehand, given who I am). They did have some incorrect information about crossdressers, but that part of the story I'll leave for another time.

So, I finally got a safe space sign for my office and every time I see it I feel even better than I did in Seattle, cuz now I am the one providing comfort to others.

I strongly encourage everyone to look into getting a similar sign for their personal workspace - it's really a small gesture that can go a very long way for individuals as well as society in general.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Well done!

[Stacy Darling]

Good on Ya Julie!
I no longer require an office space, but do carry the message quite clearly on my face!
We all can do a little to make the greater difference!
Stacy!

[Helen_Highwater]

Julie,

What a good idea. Well done.

It's said that if you see someone being discriminated against and do nothing then you're also part of the problem. What you're doing is actually a proactive response to something we all know exists. Signage such as this is now making it's way into sports stadiums, football in particular, as they tend to attract the knuckle dragging macho bigots.

You're an example to us all.

[DMichele]

Julie,
That is a great idea and I commend you. I had never heard of this concept before, so thanks for sharing.

[Pat]

What a cool thing! What does the sign say?

[Lisa Roberts]

Welcome to the Forum Julie! Thanks for stepping up and being an advocate for change. I don't know how far your journey has taken you in the CD world but it fulfills you. I sometimes weep when I think how bigoted and closed mind I used to be towards the LGBT (T) Community. You are a Champion so don't shy away from engaging conversations about our lifestyle. I truly hope you become a regular here!
Lace and Smiles.
Namaste
Lisa

[Rogina B]

Julie,

What you're doing is actually a proactive response to something we all know exists. Signage such as this is now making it's way into sports stadiums, football in particular, as they tend to attract the knuckle dragging macho bigots.

In the US,we have a lot of venues that NEED them..It gets people thinking,just the same as municipal and state HRO[gender identity and sexual orientation inclusive human rights ordinances]..Sets the stage for acceptance.

[Julie Slowinski]

Hi Pat,
The sign is just our regular company logo, but with a rainbow color scheme and surrounded by the words Safe Space. If your company doesn't have one or you don't work any more, I'm sure you you can find a generic printable version somewhere on the internet.

[mechamoose]

"To my surprise"

"I work at a fairly large organization"

I trust you were not entirely surprised. I don't think most places do it because they WANT to, but because they are demanded to. I work at a really open place, and I'm still doubtful of my ability to be who and what I really am. I'm perhaps a minority, being a big furry beast who feels much the opposite of these stupid muscles and this fur.

Based on your profile pic, you more than *pass*. You look really good. I cannot hope to be where you are due to stupid genetics. I'm a big damn moose. It would be like painting lips on a duck.

If I could go to work every day, in my own furry way, with painted nails, tasteful clothes and open toed shoes, I'd be joyful. I'm jealous of members like you.

Please keep posting. Others need your example.

Please don't take me wrong. I am totally stoked that they have welcomed you. I'm just jealous.

- MM

[Melissa Rose]

A quick Google search will turn up sources of Safe Space stickers and signs.

Julie, it is fantastic you are doing this. Sometimes it is the simple things that make a big difference.

I taught at a college with a faculty and staff course called "Safe Space". It was a LGBTQIA 101 class and its overall purpose was to create a better campus environment for LGBTQIA students, faculty and staff. Safe Space stickers were available to place on your office door so others knew you were an ally. Also, there was a campus web page with faculty and staff LGBTQIA mentors and your inclusion was voluntary. I am still on the web page even though I stopped teaching last year. This campus has a LGBTQIA sub-committee for student equity which focuses on LGBTQIA issues and a Queer-Straight Alliance student group (I was on the committee and the faculty adviser for the QSA). It takes a few dedicated people at a location to make sure resources like these are available. Without those individuals and their dedication, progress is slow and resources are limited.

Edited to add: I was the only semi-out transgender faculty or staff member on campus. It was not widely known, but some knew and more on a "need to know" basis.

[mechamoose]

But our radar still goes off, doesn't it? The same thing that we are afraid to show that in the mall or grocery store is what we internally argue with. Identity is stupid hard. It should not be.

- MM

[Pat]

A quick Google search will turn up sources of Safe Space stickers and signs.

I was interested in what specifically was on Julie's sign, since she was talking about it. However, I'm always one to take the bait, so I actually *did* a Google image search on "Safe Space Signage" to see what came up. It's actually kind of depressing to see the wide array of hostile, reactionary anti-safe-space signs. Of course, being a liberal cuck I take it to indicate that there are a lot of sad folks who failed to find nurture in their lives and so react by rejecting it for themselves and for anyone around them. Very sad footnote to a happy thread.

[Julie Slowinski]

"To my surprise"

"I work at a fairly large organization"

I trust you were not entirely surprised. I don't think most places do it because they WANT to, but because they are demanded to. I work at a really open place, and I'm still doubtful of my ability to be who and what I really am. I'm perhaps a minority, being a big furry beast who feels much the opposite of these stupid muscles and this fur.

Based on your profile pic, you more than *pass*. You look really good. I cannot hope to be where you are due to stupid genetics. I'm a big damn moose. It would be like painting lips on a duck.

If I could go to work every day, in my own furry way, with painted nails, tasteful clothes and open toed shoes, I'd be joyful. I'm jealous of members like you.

Please keep posting. Others need your example.

Please don't take me wrong. I am totally stoked that they have welcomed you. I'm just jealous.

- MM

Please do not get me wrong, I am not out at work and am not suggesting that anyone should do so without careful consideration. Actually, I feel that fact makes the gesture all that more powerful, in that it appears I am not advocating for myself, but showing that it's important to be an ally.

Thank you for the compliment (I love compliments), but I assure you that I am not passable. While I like to look fabulous I do not expect that anyone will be fooled, especially up close. The more important part is to be okay with not being passable, most people (adults) have busy lives and have little time to be concerned about what strangers are wearing. Of course, when it comes to personal relationships it's a completely different story, and something one should not take lightly. Probably too far off topic so I'll save anything more for a future post.

- - - Updated - - -


I was interested in what specifically was on Julie's sign, since she was talking about it. However, I'm always one to take the bait, so I actually *did* a Google image search on "Safe Space Signage" to see what came up. It's actually kind of depressing to see the wide array of hostile, reactionary anti-safe-space signs. Of course, being a liberal cuck I take it to indicate that there are a lot of sad folks who failed to find nurture in their lives and so react by rejecting it for themselves and for anyone around them. Very sad footnote to a happy thread.

Thanks for doing that search (I guess I should have done it myself before mentioning it). Of course, in a free society there will be hateful people. It is our responsibility, as upstanding members of the same society, to make sure our collective voice is louder.

I did a couple of searches with different word combinations and found that 'safe space printable' gave the best results.

[Tracii G]

I think its a nice thing for you to put in your office.
But why is it some think the presence of a sign will change the hearts of evil people hell bent on harassing trans people?
Sounds about as effective as a Gun free zone sign because we all know what happens in gun free zones.
Now don't all of you get all mad at me for posting that because I am for safe spaces in public areas.
Honestly its sad we actually need safe spaces in this country.

[Dana44]

I googled safe space sign and got a lot of lbgt stuff, no bad stuff. I was on the safety crew at the company I worked for and it was just that. Pretty neat idea Julie.

[Pat]

But why is it some think the presence of a sign will change the hearts of evil people hell bent on harassing trans people?
No single raindrop is responsible for the flood, right? Small acts by people of good will resonate over time. Someone passing that sign will note that Julie put it up there. That might tip the balance in their mind, or it might get their mind thinking of it and help them not be one of the folks who do nothing when a word, an expression or a gesture could stop something bad from happening. We want a society in which we don't have to hide. No single one of us will make that happen, but many of us combined with allies will be able to make it happen.


Sounds about as effective as a Gun free zone sign because we all know what happens in gun free zones.
I guess not all of us do, since I've been in a few and nothing out of the ordinary happened. Or is that your point?

[Meghan4now]

First off Julie, WELCOME to this forum! I think you will fit in quite nicely, and I look forward to reading your thoughts!

My place of work also has safe zone signs, but I have only seen a few. I joined the affinity group for LBGT, and have participated in a few events. I also am not "out" at work, although I'm sure some wonder, since I sport studs in both ears, and if you look close, you might notice some mascara and shadow on occasion, behind my glasses. I really don't worry too much about it.

I have not asked for a sign, so I found it interesting that you had to do an LBGT 101. Maybe we have that as well? I couldn't help thinking that I might be slightly amused. I'm sure it is pretty basic, much like the youth safety training in various organizations.

I understand Tracii ' point, that a safe zone shouldn't be required, and that organizations that have this are probably on the safer side to begin with

[Maria Blackwood]

I have a wildly different take on safe spaces. I usually refer to a list of the most remote places in the world. Bouvet Island or Diego Garcia is what I think of.

[mechamoose]

" I am not out at work and am not suggesting that anyone should do so without careful consideration."

I wish we didn't have to make that choice. The fact that we even have to this conversation speaks volumes.

Why does what I wear or what I look like impinge upon your world? This just makes me angry.

...and welcome, Julie. This a a really good space.

- MM

[Tracii G]

PM sent Pat.

- - - Updated - - -


I have a wildly different take on safe spaces. I usually refer to a list of the most remote places in the world. Bouvet Island or Diego Garcia is what I think of.

A remote place is probably safer than anywhere in a big city.
Of course a remote place will have its dangers too so actually there are no real safe spaces.
The idea or thought of a place being a safe space makes people all warm and fuzzy but in reality there is danger everywhere.

[Angie G]

Rock on Julie.:hugs:
Angie

[mechamoose]

"PM sent Pat."

If you are talking about Jennie, Pat is kind of a hero to me. Sweet and determined. One of he only members who can get me to shut up and listen.

'Safe Space' is and deserves to be in quotes. 'Safe' is always relative. Am I 'safe' at home? or am I 'safe' at the office? Downtown? On my favorite bike trail? How do you define that?

I'm not being rhetorical. What is 'safe'?

- MM

[Lisa Roberts]

Maybe the "Spaces" should be "Tolerant or Welcome".
Lace, smiles and harmony,
Lisa

[Sometimes Steffi]

I recently got a "No Hate" sign and put it in my front yard. I says no hate in 6 different languages, and half of them don't use the Roman alphabet. It's just my little way of speaking out about all the hate that seems to be flooding the airways. To my surprise,my wife and my basement-dwelling adult daughter both strongly supported putting it out in the front yard. I knew that they agreed with the thought, but I had some concern of making myself a target for haters.

[Tracii G]

Steffi just install some trip wire in various places close to the front door it will make people wonder.

[kimdl93]

Safe is more of a mindset than a reality. In my very long life I never been threatened nor the victim of violence. Still, It's nice to know that some businesses are declaring their premises as safe. I also like the idea of 'hate free zones'. Hate, anger, ignorance and violence seem to go hand in hand. At least the sign challenges defective ideas.

[Tracii G]

Kim you are very lucky to not to have been a victim of violence your whole life.

[kimdl93]

Maybe I am. Kinda makes ya wonder

[abby054]

A remote place is probably safer than anywhere in a big city.

I am not certain about that. One of the great ironies of being out and about crossdressed is that we are usually safer when in a large crowd than when seemingly alone. Most assaults occur when the victim is isolated.

As for safe spaces, I work in a row of a dozen or so offices. The guy next to me took the training and has the safe space signage prominently displayed. In fact, the whole company is well known for being a safe space.

[Tracii G]

Abby I was working off the idea of a remote place where there are very few people so the chances are far less.
I'm out all the time among the public and its rare that anyone even notices me.
I have had a few not so nice people give me a hard time but they are few and far between.
A couple of instances where violence was a factor.
I have been in guy mode and had people try to rob me or fight me because I'm different.
Safe spaces wouldn't have helped me in any way.
Thinking safe spaces as a deterrent is kind of silly there are angry nut jobs everywhere.

[Stephanie47]

This concept has also been used to let children know if they are in trouble and need assistance the establishment or home is a "safe place" to knock on the door. My wife and I always introduce ourselves to new neighbors, and, if they have kids to let them know the kids can knock on our door to be safe. Although Seattle is a welcoming city for gays, lesbians and transgender men and women, it has had its problems with non-accepting outsiders harassing people. The signage is not just to welcome people into the establishment, but,, also a place to seek refuge if need be.

[Julie Slowinski]

Since this is my first thread and the subject is important to me, I'm gonna try to get this thread back on topic....

I don't know where the safest place in the world is, but as of two weeks ago My Office is pretty close. That's cuz I will be there to support and defend you without an ounce of judgement, regardless of who you love or what you wear. (Though, I might have half an ounce of judgment if you're wearing a $15 Halloween wig you picked up at the drugstore 3 years ago. I have my limits girls.) 😜

The point is that we are safest when we are among a supportive community and we should do everything we can (within the limits of our personal life) to expand that community. I would like to think that if the roles were reversed and I was sitting in your office (of course with fabulous hair), that you would also have my back. Since it's unlikely I would recognize any of you in drab, the proposed signage is the only way to know that you might be a source of refuge.

So, let's get out there and support each other (as well as the larger LGBT community), cuz one small gesture can make a world of difference to some desperate person (possibility very similar to you earlier in life) who is out there suffering in silence.

💋💋💋 Julie

[Meghan4now]

Good for you Julie!

So I am curious as to what was covered in the LBGT 101

[Julie Slowinski]

Good for you Julie!

So I am curious as to what was covered in the LBGT 101

Okay, so here's a summary. If you're looking for the interesting part skip to the end.

The group was just me and two other people I didn't know. The moderator was a cis-bi-women married to a man. I expected the discussion to be mostly about LGB issues, but more than half of it was about the T part. Lots of discussion about pronouns. I learned about 'privilege', the actual meaning of cis, and a few other things. There was a large packet handout, prepared by the moderator, that had lots of definitions and explanation of the various types of people. While it discussed transgender and drag correctly, crossdressing was described as a catch all term and possibly derogatory, which of course annoyed me. I wanted to say something about it, but of course that would require me to come out to her, which I wasn't ready to do at work.

The final part focused on what to do if someone comes out to you. Specifically emphasizing that you should not assume this is common knowledge and that you should not share this information with anyone else. Well that put me over the top and after the session I met her in her office and let her know who I am and that her information was incorrect (of course emphasizing that I'm not out with the rest of the organization). She asked for more information, so I sent her some links using my Julie email.

That end part was not what I had expected and was a bit nerve racking, but in the end I felt good about how things went. Incidentally, earlier that day I had come out to an old HS friend, who was the first person I had come out to since my wife 25 years ago. Needless to say, I'm taking a break on coming out to people at least for the next few months, wouldn't want things to get away from me.

💋💋💋 Julie

[Krisi]

I don't understand the concept of a "safe space". Shouldn't the whole country be a "safe space"? So what does a safe space mean? What does it do? Are you safe from ridicule or violence if there's a "safe space" sign? What happens to someone if they violate the safe space sign? Is this like a gun free zone?

In my experience, signs don't do a lot to change people's behavior or attitudes. Our own actions and attitudes are more effective.

[Julie Slowinski]

Hi Krisi,
As I've said below, it's not about the sign it's about the person behind the sign. It tells people (regardless of which side they are on) that I will not tolerate ridicule or violence in my presence - if you wanna be a hater, then do it somewhere else or feel my wrath.

Actually, this is an important part of the LGBT 101 that I forgot to mention. The very last step was to sign a pledge that said essentially the same thing, though it was worded a bit nicer.

💋💋💋 Julie

[ClosetED]

Welcome Julie! I also work for a good sized company with a devoted diversity area and support groups, but I have not seen one safe space sign. I agree it is a good idea, but harder to be the first in the company to put one up. Like you, I look good in pictures, but not as sure how well I would pass close up and needing to speak. If I did see such a sign, I might be tempted to out myself safely(as you did with class leader), as sharing this secret makes us feel better. Certainly this site is a safe space! I can see how some feel crossdressing is vague and might be derogatory, as some feel TV is. I do try to avoid labels when possible and just describe actions and thoughts, but we are made to categorize the world to make sense of it.
Hugs, Ellen

[Pat]

I don't understand the concept of a "safe space". Shouldn't the whole country be a "safe space"?

Yes it should. And you know darn well that it's not. So that's why there's the concept of a "Safe Space."

I was just reading an article on the Psychology Today website about "The Five Things Transgender Kids Want Adults to Know." (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/political-minds/201709/five-things-transgender-kids-want-adults-know ) Number Five reminded my of this thread:


5. “Let me know that you are on my team.”

Most transgender youth live difficult lives. Our society often does not support them. They are victims of discriminatory laws, disproportionate rates of violence, and poor medical outcomes. Most have put up with bullying in their schools and communities. More than anything, they want to know that there are adults who are on their team. They want people on their side who will support them and lend a non-judgmental ear. In a world full of people against them, you can be the person on their side who makes all the difference.

I think that applies to more than just kids. ;)

[Julie Slowinski]

Oh Jennie, That number 5 passage just brought me to tears. It's no wonder they call me a bleeding heart liberal. Can't imagine how anyone would not want to bring comfort to anyone in such a situation, especially a young person.

[Melissa Rose]

A Safe Space in context to Julie's original and follow up posts is as much a safe space originating around or from one or more individuals than the actual physical space itself. It is less of a bomb shelter more of a force field emanating from those around you.

As previously mentioned in this thread, I was the faculty adviser to the Queer-Straight Alliance student group on a college campus and we met 1-2 times a week. Whatever room we met in was a safe space. It did not matter if there was a sticker on the door or not. We made it a safe space. Details about what was shared in the meeting remained in the room unless you had direct permission to share it. For a few students, it was the only place they were safe to be out. No one else in their family or circle of friends knew and some would be kicked out of their houses or worse if found out. They could be around others who understood and openly supported them. It allowed anyone to be themselves without worrying about the consequences. I had one transgender student in particular that would open up to me (even before he found out I was transgender) in ways he could not with anyone else. He found a safe place.

It is common on this forum to see a post asking if anyone knows of a "TG-friendly" place.......what they are asking for is a safe space. Stores are not TG-friendly, it is the people (SAs and sometimes other customers) in it. In the real world, there are safe and unsafe spaces, and it is not always easy to tell one from another at first. Safe Space signs help in making this determination. It is not the sticker, but the person standing behind it. I added a small Safe Space symbol to the bottom corner of the syllabus for each of my classes. It not only let anyone who knew the meaning of the symbol that my classes were safe spaces, but also sent a message to the entire class that bullying or disrespectful behavior, whether it be LGBTQ related or not, would not be tolerated. It worked.

[Evie08]

Julie,
I am so glad you enjoyed our City of Seattle. The City and Seattle Police have engaged businesses throughout Seattle to be safe places with the Capitol Hill neighborhood having the highest density. I love your idea of putting the sign in your office. Great idea to make it personal.

281713

[NicoleScott]

Questions:
1) If intolerance is encountered at a company with a stated policy towards tolerance, shouldn't you go to HR instead of withdrawing to a safe space?
2) Are safe space signs sending an unintentional message that it's OK to be intolerant, just not here?
3) In your safe spaces, do you provide cookies and coloring books?

[Pat]

Questions:
1) If intolerance is encountered at a company with a stated policy towards tolerance, shouldn't you go to HR instead of withdrawing to a safe space?
2) Are safe space signs sending an unintentional message that it's OK to be intolerant, just not here?
3) In your safe spaces, do you provide cookies and coloring books?

1. There are levels of intolerance and reaction. Generally people save the trip to HR for special occasions.
2. Yes, in the same way that bomb shelters are saying it's OK to blow up cities, just not that space. :brolleyes:
3. The encoded message being that people who feel the need for support are children? Nice.

[Julie Slowinski]

Hi Nicole,
not-Julie has a very busy day today, but it sounds like question 3 is a pressing one for you, so I'll take a moment to help you out. No, we do not offer cookies and coloring books. However, we do offer makeup lessons, so feel free to stop by.

Hope that helps. I'll get back to your other questions later.

💋💋💋 Julie

[NicoleScott]

Pat, my questions 1 and 2 are related. That is, intolerance (especially at a company with a tolerance policy) won't end by running from it, but by confronting it. It doesn't make sense that intolerance isn't important enough to report to HR, but important enough to create a safe space. Your reply to #2 was a ridiculous non-answer.
#3: I read on Wiki about a safe space with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, pillows, pictures of puppies, and other things to calm those inside. And so I asked a simple question to get a simple answer (yes, no, maybe, sometimes...). But you chose to read something into it, so let's go there: yes, that is treating people like children.
Are safe spaces becoming places where you can go on the attack but can't be challenged (because, well, you're in a safe space)?

[Tracii G]

Nicole she said its not about the sign is about the person behind the sign whatever that means.
I have to wonder is the sign there to make you feel better about yourself Julie?
Letting it be known you are pro active and down for the LGBT struggle?
The liberal logic seems that "feeling" is more important than actually physically helping someone.
Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

[NicoleScott]

Julie, thanks for your direct answer to my question #3. As for your makeup offer, the way I make up exactly meets my makeup objectives. But you don't know what they are, so you can't help. I won't be visiting your safe space for a makeup lesson, preferring to live in the real world.

[jack-ie]

I'm beginning to understand what these "safe places" are all about. It's a place bordered by imaginary lines where fragile people can feel good about themselves while throwing barbs at others w/o consequence.
Is that about it?

[Krea]

Hi Julie,
Your original post is such a great idea.
I have never seen anything like "safe place" signs over here. (Altho that could be because i do not see much of the world these days.) I would love to see these signs in some of the places that i do go to. Having certain places where we can know that there are people who are supportive and non-judgemental must be very reassuring.
Good for you! :bighug:

[Pat]

Pat, my questions 1 and 2 are related. That is, intolerance (especially at a company with a tolerance policy) won't end by running from it, but by confronting it. It doesn't make sense that intolerance isn't important enough to report to HR, but important enough to create a safe space.

I get that questions 1 and 2 were related. Gender issues aren't the only issues for which safe spaces exist -- as a little thought experiment, let's recast the questions with domestic violence as the issue. Would you think it's reasonable to ask:

1) If domestic violence is encountered in a jurisdiction with laws that forbid it, shouldn't you go to the police instead of withdrawing to a safe space?
2) Are safe space signs sending an unintentional message that it's OK to be commit domestic violence, just not here?

If you think those are reasonble, then the conversation is over. If you think they're not reasonable map them back onto the issue of providing safe spaces to LGBT folks and ask if they really just amount to blaming the victim for being victimized. That's how it read to me.




#3: I read on Wiki about a safe space with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, pillows, pictures of puppies, and other things to calm those inside. And so I asked a simple question to get a simple answer (yes, no, maybe, sometimes...).

If yours was a sincere question about adults in a corporate environment being comforted with cookies and coloring books then I'm sorry I mistook your simple naivete as a disingenuous swipe at the people involved.

[Tracii G]

Safe places at work seems like its only for a certain segment of the work force how is that fair for anyone?
Being a member of the LGBT community I find it repugnant to demand an employer to offer a safe space to LGBT people only.
If the company really had rules and followed the discrimination laws set forth by the government safe spaces wouldn't be needed.
It would be handled thru HR as it should be.
OK if a person has a job isn't going to a safe space going to take them off their job and reduce production?
Not to mention there would always be those 3 or 4 employees that would abuse the silly safe space idea to get out of working.
Basically its no more than coddling and treating adults like children.

[Ressie]

I believe the safe space concept originated in universities. I also believe it hinders young students from learning how to deal with the real world.

[Tracii G]

Essentially it is Ressie.
I noticed it years ago with preteen sports like base ball and soccer here in the states. No matter if you won or lost you got a trophy for participating.
Baseball games where they didn't keep score so the losing team didn't feel bad for losing.
To me thats not fair for the kids they don't learn somebody wins somebody loses thats how it all works.
Case in point today we have antifa who grew up with this culture where they didn't like how and election turned out so now they are throwing a temper tantrum.
Just shows how that liberal child rearing Dr Spock mentality hasn't worked out too well.

[NicoleScott]

Pat, I'm all for safe spaces for people (kids and adults) to go to escape violence and threats. So no, violence outside of safe spaces is not OK. By the way, I never said it was, but asked if some would perceive it was OK, and I think they do.
I'm not a fan of safe spaces created to coddle adults whose feelings are hurt because they hear name-calling, ideas that differ from their own, or election results they don't like, such as the one referred to in the Wiki entry (cookies, coloring books, etc.)
Our military didn't go overseas in WWII to build more and better bomb shelters, but to stop those dropping the bombs. Bomb shelters don't legitimize the bombing, except in the minds of the bombers. Withdrawing to safe spaces to escape intolerance doesn't end the intolerance, but HR with management's backing can.

[Ineke Vashon]

Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Because the world has changed, and not for the better. In the fifties I hitchhiked throughout Europe. I saw young females hitch hiking. We'd get together in youth hostels to discuss our adventures. No one reported problems. Just try that today.

Ineke
ps: Julie - you are a gem. Welcome to this forum.:love:

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So what's a "safe place?" It can be lots of places, not only in our little neck o' the woods. Look at Houston - safe places are those where unfortunate people were taken. Or any secure locale to go to when severe weather threatens. Those are safe places.

In my RV world, a safe place is a campground where there is at least a campground host. Usually, they are in phone or radio contact with rangers or other authorities. That, to me, is a safe place. Because of a long standing anxiety problem I will not stay overnight in an empty campground without camp host or at least several other RVs.

That's just me, fallible human - I prefer, and look for, a safe place.

Ineke

ps: I had intended to have two separate posts. Somehow, they came out as one. That's why it appears I signed twice. Whatever.

[Tracii G]

Ineke the world has changed in some respects there in lies the problem.
Coddling adults, sheltering kids form the fact they don't always win and that they aren't special to everybody.
Parents don't seem to teach their kids to be self sufficient these days by letting them live at home even thru adulthood and they stay a perpetual child.
I was out on my own at 17 fending for myself and if something had to be done I had to do it.
I don't doubt we have a handful or perpetual kids on this site still living with their parents and in their 30's.

[Julie Slowinski]

Let me begin by apologizing to Nicole. I didn't actually mean that comment about your makeup (I think you are a beautiful expression of femininity), but I did know that it would hurt. Thought it might be a good exercise to break down some of the straight privilege that many of us tend to take advantage of, especially those of us that are mostly in the closet (myself included). The point is that all ridicule hurts and we should do all that we can to prevent vulnerable people from having to suffer it. Who are these vulnerable people you might ask? Nobody knows, but their out among us and we should have at least a little concern for their feelings. So, a suggestion that these people (adults) are acting like or should be treated like spoiled children is just plain insulting and definitely going in the wrong direction. Nicole, I see your explanation of how I might have misinterpreted your question, but clearly I was not the only one to take it that way.

Now I'm sure that many of you are thinking that I'm acting like the thought police. I absolutely do not subscribe to such notions. Anyone is free to say anything they want. But, others also have the right to respond, in kind. Part of the point of that sign is to let people know where I stand and that they should expect to hear my views if they bring up the subject. The other part, which is likely more important, is to let members of the LGBT community know that I'm on their side (i.e. an ally) and if they ever need a sympathetic ear I will be available to them.

Let me now give a crack at Nicole's questions:
"1) If intolerance is encountered at a company with a stated policy towards tolerance, shouldn't you go to HR instead of withdrawing to a safe space?"

I'm guessing you've heard of a corporate mission statement - some bullshit dreamed up by the new CEO, which makes no difference unless they are able to change the culture of the people working at the company. This is kind of the same thing - a stated policy makes no difference if the people working there are not on board with that policy. I'm not sure what HR is supposed to do about it. My experience with HR is more about filling out forms, than being some sort of police force. Even if HR were to issue some sort of reprimand, tattling on bullies never has the desired effect and will usually result in a cloaked retaliation. It seems to me that a better approach is to help create an internal culture of tolerance (one that heads of the ridicule in the first place). The more people who are visibly on board with this culture the better. And, in the event that someone is hurt by a thoughtless comment, be the friend that can help someone fight their internal self-loathing. If you've made it to this site, I'm guessing you are particularly familiar with this issue. To deal with this problem I've built internal defenses that help me fight that self loathing, while maintaining my self esteem. I'm guessing that most of the members here have done the same. Having such skills makes us particularly well equipped to be an ally.

"2) Are safe space signs sending an unintentional message that it's OK to be intolerant, just not here?"

As I said above, I believe that people are free to say and do whatever they want. The point of the sign is to indicate that when I exercise my free rights in response, they should have a pretty good idea of what that response is going to be. How someone uses that information about me is up to them.

I'd like to end this post by saying that I think that this is a really good discussion. It's helped me clarify my goals and intentions with this silly little sign. Also, I'm hoping there are no hard feelings. I know I can get passionate at times, but please understand that I'm more interested in the vigorous discussion than anything personal. Actually, one of the main reasons I joined CD.com is to participate in such discussions.

������ Julie

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Nicole she said its not about the sign is about the person behind the sign whatever that means.
I have to wonder is the sign there to make you feel better about yourself Julie?
Letting it be known you are pro active and down for the LGBT struggle?
The liberal logic seems that "feeling" is more important than actually physically helping someone.
Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Hi Tracii, That's an interesting thought. My answer is yes ... the sign does make me feel better about myself. But, doing the right thing always makes me feel that way, especially if it's hard and there's some risk involved. Helping someone with their feelings is a physical act. However, if you're looking for something more physical I would like to believe that I would jump in if I was ever wittiness to an assault, especially if the victim was from the LGBT community and regardless of what I'm wearing. If I'm gonna talk the talk, then I know that I'll need to walk the walk.

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I'm beginning to understand what these "safe places" are all about. It's a place bordered by imaginary lines where fragile people can feel good about themselves while throwing barbs at others w/o consequence.
Is that about it?

Supportive? Yes! Fragile? No!

It must be my Chicago upbringing, but I'm always ready to stand up for my people, especially those that are vulnerable. I'm of the opinion that there are no actions without consequences.

[Pat]

Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Not sure who "we" is in that, but if it means humanity then I'd give counter-examples: first century Rome, where people chalked fish symbols on their homes to indicate they were a place those new-fangled Christians could gather and be themselves without fear. Wouldn't we call that a safe space nowadays? The homes and taverns of Ireland where the Gaelic language was kept alive when the British outlawed it -- weren't those safe spaces? Wasn't the Underground Railroad in fact a series of safe spaces that slaves escaping to the North could use? And in more modern times, aren't gay bars safe spaces? I'd say throughout history we have always carved out safe spaces for minorities who were oppressed in some way.


Safe places at work seems like its only for a certain segment of the work force how is that fair for anyone?
Being a member of the LGBT community I find it repugnant to demand an employer to offer a safe space to LGBT people only.

It's an interesting stance to take. It seems to be saying that LGBT folks should not have safe spaces unless we also establish safe spaces for Neo-nazis, KKK, etc. If that's the change you want to see in the world, then by all means step up, like Julie did, and work for it. Traditionally, companies do tend to only offer safe spaces to people who are in some way aligned with their cultural objectives, so you're right -- it's not "safe spaces for all" but personally I couldn't really get behind that.


I noticed it years ago with preteen sports like base ball and soccer here in the states. No matter if you won or lost you got a trophy for participating.
Baseball games where they didn't keep score so the losing team didn't feel bad for losing.
To me thats not fair for the kids they don't learn somebody wins somebody loses thats how it all works.

Getting a little too far off-topic even for me, but I'll just note that the rules weren't changed by the kids, they were changed by the adults who had lived through a system like the one you endorse.

[Julie Slowinski]

Our military didn't go overseas in WWII to build more and better bomb shelters, but to stop those dropping the bombs.

I think we are getting to a bit of a consensus here. The real objective is to stop the bombs. In Pat's historical examples (wonderful by the way), there was a need for safe spaces until there got to be so many of them that just about everywhere was safe. Tracii - isn't that the world you're looking for? The world we're all looking for - to wear whatever you want wherever you want? And, to be able to do so without being judged or the threat of violence.

It starts by creating islands. Islands that multiply, merge and grow until the unsafe places are the islands, which will eventually disappear.

So, I go back to my original challenge. Please, go create your own island. The more safe islands we have, the closer we'll be to not needing them any more!!!

[NicoleScott]

Julie, no apology necessary, but thanks. I have a pretty thick skin regarding my transformation preferences. I like over-the-top everything, including makeup. It pleases me, some others like it, and many others don't.
Company policies (of all kinds) are just words on paper unless enforced by HR and management and fully backed by upper management. Some companies take it seriously and some don't. I can understand why some people don't bother reporting issues to HR, but...it may be important later on to document that at least you tried.
As I said in my last post, I'm for spaces to keep people safe, but not so-called safe spaces which are just enclaves where expressions of differing ideologies are unwelcome.

[michelle64]

My safe space is what i carry in my purse...i feel safe wherever i go....i dont drink or do bars/clubs..so that right there eliminates 99% of the riff raff...a sign does not make one safe..sorry not really on board with this..there really should be a discussion on that item than can make you safe..but its such a cat fight here i can understand the reason not to discuss...

[Tracii G]

Pat why is it you have to make the Neo nazi and KKK remarks when thats not the point I was trying to get across.

[Kayliedaskope]

Just me (liberal, by the way), but I never had anything like a safe space when I was growing up, and not even now. I learned right from wrong, respect for others, and to stand for the things that were right. I've taken my share of hard knocks ... I think we all have been there before. In general i'm a peaceful person and simply want to live my life that way, but I'm also not above giving someone a well-deserved attitude adjustment, either.

Sorry, I guess I'm off topic a bit ....I think that being able to take a stand for what you believe in is never a bad thing.

[Tracii G]

Exactly right Kaylie.
Its like no one has the courage or "stones" to stand up for themselves and they have to run and hide in a safe space.
I'll bet I get called queer or fag 10 times a week and it doesn't make me want to scream and cry that I have been made fun of and need a safe space.

[Pat]

Pat why is it you have to make the Neo nazi and KKK remarks when thats not the point I was trying to get across.

Because that's how I read your words. You seemed to be saying that it's not fair to have safe spaces for one group if there weren't safe spaces for all groups. There are some pretty repugnant groups out there and a number that I'm perfectly OK with not granting a safe space to.

This started with Julie taking some training and putting up a sign in her office for the very noble purpose of supporting people whose shot at getting civil rights is currently ongoing. I love her vision of islands of support joining up into full social support -- that's exactly how I saw racial integration happen, "women's lib" happen and gay rights happen. It always starts small. It always gets push-back from reactionaries who don't see any reason why we should change "the way it's always been" (even if it hasn't actually always been that way.) So in some respects, this conversation is pre-ordained. I'm just a little surprised we have to have it here.

[Tracii G]

I'm done.

[Julie Slowinski]

Well that was fun!!! No joke, I really enjoyed the vigorous discussion and look forward others in the future. Now, if you'll excuse me, I feel a hair ball coming up.

[AllieSF]

Watchout for those hair balls. My cat gets them all the time in her safe place at my home (no signs needed just yet). Unfortunately, what I really need is a "Designated Place" for those hair balls so that I won't step on them in the dark!

[Ressie]

How about a safe space for Trump supporters that are also TG? We get hate from both sides.

Gay bars are safe? Not against terrorist attacks as we've seen in Florida. Ain't no guarantees on this planet.

[Krisi]

................ Over 200 years we never needed or had safe spaces now all of a sudden we do why is that?

Because we now have a generation of people who have been protected from all harm by their parents and the government. They have no idea how to protect or stand up for themselves.

[AllieSF]

With this thread is about a trans person putting that sign in her office giving all her good and viable reasons to why more than once in this thread, and with all those LGBT kids growing up with unaccepting parents and schoolmates and society as a whole with no Governmental protections, please tell me Krisi, how can you say that they were over protected by anyone?? With an over 40% suicide rate among trans people and regular hate crime killing of them here in the USA and other places, they are killing themselves because they were over protected? Please tell me what idyllic and all accepting place that you live where one can be themselves with no need for protection.

[Tracii G]

Allie you totally missed the point of what Krisi said.

[Julie Slowinski]

Hi Tracii, It seems to me that Allie understood the point perfectly.

Thanks Allie, you are dead on - in many cases it can be a matter of life and death. While the statistics focus on modern times, I'm quite confident the problem was much worse in the 'good old days', but wildly underreported due to more people being so deeply in the closet.

Hi Krisi, I think we should think less about the hypothetical spoiled youth, and focus on what WE can do to improve things. Maybe you should walk the walk of your talk and stand up for yourself and your community. If we cannot stand up for our own community, then how the hell can we expect anyone else to stand up for us?

It's really not that complicated - just try to help people that have the same problems that you have/had. Is it really asking too much to be kind and take under your wing folks that are in need of help? I would think it would be the least we could do.

💋💋💋 Julie

[GretchenJ]

A lot of passionate feelings on this subject, many are fueled imo from toeing the political stance of what "safe spaces " are - to some it's an equivalent to coddling, participation trophies, that toughening up our kids make them ready for the real world, and that we are doing them any favors by softening up.

My thoughts are twofold:

I am against some of the "safe spaces" on some college campuses, because in many of these cases , there are just semi-private clubs, that exclude others. A true safe space in one that everyone is safe and included, where free thoughts are accepted by all, not just the ones where the safe space organizers believe in. To me, that just increases the political and social divide even further.

But as to the sign, that the OP is referring to, I see absolutely nothing wrong with. A lot of you have talked about encountering violence in your past, as you were out and about being your authentic self. When I went out for the the first time, I remember staying in my car for the crowd to dissipate, checking the store window to check to see if I could enter without repercussion. We have for the most part that gay bars and clubs will always welcome us, but for the other neighborhood, it's always been hit or miss.

We now have bakeries that may or may not make a cake for you, the only way to know is to enter, ask, and possibly take your lumps.

It would be comforting to be able to walk into an establishment, be it a bar, club, restaurant, store knowing that you can enter and be treated fairly without the chance of getting the snot getting kicked out of you. To some, this may be considered a rite of passage, but to me, it's something I wish to avoid. In these places, there is a sign, an invisible one, similar to the "No Colored People Allowed" , and has the same effects for those who tempt fate.

its a shame that these signs are needed as well, hopefully over time, it may become not needed in the future.

[Aunt Kelly]

I agree with you 100%, Gretchen.
There should be no need for "safe spaces". None of us has the right to not be offended. Life is full of offensive things. Learning to deal with them is part of growing up and becoming a self-sufficient adult. Sometimes, "dealing with it" means standing up for yourself and the rights that you do have. Running away to a safe space is worse than simply not dealing with something that is wrong or offensive. That failure to act often emboldens the offender.
I appreciate the statement that a "safe space" sign makes, but I suggest that it is far from enough. We need to be an aggressive advocate for those we wish to protect. Change the culture so that there are fewer offenses. Change those you deem as needing your protection so that they learn to stand up for themselves and deal with offense as empowered adults instead of running away.