Transgender vs Crossdresser

[Majella St Gerard]

I hope no one takes offense with this post. I noticed that quite a few posters here in the crossdressing section identify as transgender. Now I know many transgirls and they most definitely do not consider themselves to be crossdressers. I have never even been to the trans section of this site, because I am not trans. Just an observation.

[Pat]

Transgender is an umbrella term that identifies anyone who is not cisgender. You may be confusing it with Transsexual which is a particular kind of transgender person. So, except for those crossdressers who somehow claim they are cisgender despite the need to wear women's clothing, crossdressers come under the transgender umbrella.

[Sarah Doepner]

There have been lots of long, impassioned and often tedious discussions here all aimed at the terminology we use to identify ourselves. I agree with Pat that it's easiest to use Transgender as an umbrella that includes a broad spectrum. I suggest it covers everyone from those who medically transition to those who are happy with wandering next to the displays of bras in a department store wondering how it would feel to wear one. Where you stand, or sit, under that umbrella gets confusing as labels become personal.

[Majella St Gerard]

Thanks, I should have just looked up the definition of transgender.

[Stacy Darling]

The removal of the vs and replacing it with anything else would be nice!

As a CD which is more like a Drag Queen I can appreciate the difference between trans and cd!

I am Totally with Majella in that this is a CD site!

Share our love Stacy!

[Rachael Leigh]

I just saw a video on this very subject and the diffence is one who crossdresses has no problem using this as an escape
and they don't need it to be themselves.
Someone is considered transgender if just dressing once in while is not enough and must present themselves in their perfered gender most of the time.
This hit home with me as I belive that I'm transgender and now am slowly coming out at work and with others

[Stephanie47]

I think the problem with trying to figure out cross dresser vs transgender is with the ill informed general public. I consider myself a cross dresser. I feel very comfortable wearing women's clothing on occasion. I also feel very comfortable wearing men's clothing too. When I "dress Up" as a woman it's dresses, heels and hosiery, all the proper undergarments. When I "dress up" as a guy it's a dress shirt with a tie, slacks and shined shoes. Depending on the occasion both modes make me feel great. At first when lurking on this site I did not comprehend the word transgender. I always assumed transgender = transsexual. Now everything seems to be getting very complicated. Currently Washington State is taking comments on the issue of allowing people to change the defined sex on their birth certificates to an "X" for being neither male or female. I wonder if a cross dresser, who feels and emulates a woman on occasion, would fall within the "X."

[Taylor186]

The problem is not just with, as you call it, "the ill informed general public." We here at CD.com can't seem to agree either.

[Pat]

I just saw a video on this very subject and the diffence is one who crossdresses has no problem using this as an escape
and they don't need it to be themselves.

Sure, if you like. I have a personal policy of not telling people who they are or what they feel. But I also have a huge commitment to keeping the language clear -- don't take a clear, simple word and overlay it with a bunch of unstated assumptions. That's why I always jump in when folks are trying to redefine transgender (or non-binary) to carry some personal meaning that only makes discussion harder.


Currently Washington State is taking comments on the issue of allowing people to change the defined sex on their birth certificates to an "X" for being neither male or female. I wonder if a cross dresser, who feels and emulates a woman on occasion, would fall within the "X."

My understanding of the proposed law is that "X" would translate to "gender unstated" which is not exactly the same as "not male or female." A cisgender person who thinks it's none of your business what they are is equally welcome to choose X for a gender marker. Again, words have to have clear meanings if communication is to occur. "Unstated" means only that. Personally, I'd love to see a "T" marker that unequivocally means transgender but chances of that happening are slim. Many folks feel the *best* answer is to remove the gender markers from official documents.

[docrobbysherry]

We here r all a little different and a lot the same. So, the problems here don't stem from people trying to define themselves.:hugs:

They come up when people try to use their terms to define the rest of us!:Angry3:

[Tracii G]

OH crap here we go again.
Why do people keep beating the dead horse?
I love when people try to define things because you know an argument will be coming soon and the thread will get closed.

[Majella St Gerard]

I didn't mean to cause a fuss, it's just that the name of this forum is Crossdressers.com, maybe it should be changed to Transgender.com.

[Nikki A.]

On this site all are welcome to their opinions and input.
As for myself, I consider myself a CD, but I dress regularly and go to church, church events, grocery shop and visit friends as Nikki. If I woke as a a female, I would have no problem with it and may consider transitioning down the road.
So am I a CD, TG or TS? Who really cares

[Richelle423]

I personally don't consider myself cis gender. I generally wear female clothes all the time . physically I look too MASCULINE to look like a woman but deep down inside I'm too FEMININE. To be a man.

[Lana Mae]

I was told by one here that I was a crossdresser with a good deal of gender dysphoria! Doesn't that make me transgender because of the dysphoria? I am me and that is final! Labels help to catagorize but are not the whole story! Look we had to establish a non-binary section because so many were! Sometimes we even get it wrong! Just be you and let others go their way, too! Just my $0.02! Hugs Lana Mae

[Bobbi46]

Majella,
whereas I see where you are going, I do not agree with changing our name, changing to transgender.com would turn people away plus it narrows the whole meaning of what and where we are coming from. Crossdresser is just right the umbrella to have and to include all of us whichever road or journey we take.
I started as so many dressing but my journey has become a more meaningful one and I no longer dress on and off but every day so I consider myself no longer a cd but transgender but I still feel part of everything and everybody else within this forum, and proud to be part of it as well.

[Fiona123]

I crossdress & consider myself transgender. I'm sexually attracted to females. One therapist suggested I'm lesbian (not sure about that). I'm not cisgender. I am closeted. Thats just me though. We're all different.

[Bobbi46]

Nikki has it right on the nail, transgender .com? no that would never work simply and purely the very name suggests a very particular part of our spectrum. We all equal in this together, some are cd's some more so but at the end of the day we all together all on our own journeys through life whatever it means to each of us I consider myself to be transgender now my journey having become more deeper and meaningful to me but I do not isolate myself to one term alone. Crossdresser is a perfect umbrella term to embrace each and every one of us without prejudice race colour or creed. We are all in this together bound together by a common bond as a community.

[Mickitv]

I really don't like labels but when I am asked I usually say I am a bisexual crossdresser but transgender would also be good

[Pat]

Majella -- I think the site name is perfect just the way it is. I don't really see it as exclusionary -- crossdressing is kind of the crossroads of the transgender community. It's hard to think of a transgender subgroup that doesn't pass through crossdressing on their journey of self-discovery. There are crossdressers who never do anything else and there are people who show up here (as I did) thinking they're crossdressers and then find out from reading other people's experiences that they're something else. We have divisions into subgroups for people who need to talk about other aspects of their identity, but even though I no longer consider myself a crossdresser, I still come here and join in on certain topics because I have experience or book-learning, or snarky opinions on those topics.

[Tracii G]

Pat and Bobbi put it very well I agree.
Some people are always seeking to divide things and pick things apart and just can't leave well enough alone.
I don't think they do it on purpose but I think it has to do with their own inability to understand what they are and their driving need to feel included.

[Ressie]

Last I knew, transgender is an adjective while Crossdresser is a noun. So someone that crossdresses can be described as transgender, but they don't have to be. They can be labeled as a crossdresser, but transgender being an adjective isn't really a label or category is it?

The media and other sources tend to say transgender rather than transexual (noun) which causes confusion. How about gendernoncomforming.com? I'm sure that domain is already taken too.

[Lana Mae]

Where ever we are on our journey, we crossdressed at one time or another or we would not be here! Just saying! Hugs Lana Mae

[Tracii G]

Well said Lana Mae.

[Julie Slowinski]

After reading this and other threads and a bit of soul searching I have come up with the following definition:

Transgender Person - Anyone who does or desires to present themselves as a gender different than their birth sex, either in public or private and for any length of time.

I think the reason we have so many labels is because we try to define ourselves with respect to what we are not. When I first came to this site, I would say that I'm a crossdresser and not a transsexual and not a drag queen. But, I am gradually coming to the conclusion that such a statement is completely unnecessary. All I need to say is 'I am transgender'. Who cares where I am on the spectrum? What difference does it make? Is it somehow better to be on one side versus the other? Of course not! The important point is that I am here to support everyone in this diverse community.

I, also, think that there is resistance to the transgender term because many here and in pop culture use 'trans' as short for transsexual. For this reason, I have had an involuntary unease when describing myself as trans-anything. But, I am evolving and the conscious logical part of my mind is making it easier for me to say 'I am transgender' without an emotional wince.

Just my thoughts. I welcome any and all feedback ....

Julie

[Princess Chantal]

Transgendered? Ummm yikes, may I suggest dropping the "ed"

[sarah_hillcrest]

Jenny Boylan explained transgender as an umbrella term and defined 4 groups within the term.

Drag Queens, Crossdressers, Transsexuals, GenderQueer

She goes on to say these labels are mostly useless saying every transgender person is unique.

https://www.aspeninstitute.org/podcasts/on-being-a-transgender-american/

There's a lot of overlap, I would say that ever transsexual begins as a crossdresser.

[Teresa]

Majella,
To me crossdressing is the window to the World to show how we feel inside, I can list many labels which then apply but to the public we are CDers, the majority don't differentiate . Some will take offence because they think we are openly displaying we are gay , others think we are taking the mickey out of a woman because we think we are one.

Some members don't like labels but I'm afraid we do need them if we are in the public eye, if we all stayed in the closet then none of this would be a problem. The fact is we venture out which shouldn't be a problem but we do need to be able to explain clearly what we are. My good friend who knows about my CDing tells me I'm too open , people don't want to know. His argument is that he doesn't go round telling people he's married or divorced. I believe he's wrong , the public don't question those issues but not many have seen a CDer, most do want to know out of curiosity , as I witnessed only a few weeks ago , and a SA only last week. What really makes us tick, what drives a man to dress a as woman ?
We need to know ourselves clearly enough to answer those questions, the labels are important ,the medical profession would be lost without them, how can a therapist move forward without a valid description of what we are ?

[Julie Slowinski]

Transgendered? Ummm yikes, may I suggest dropping the "ed"

I am honestly ignorant of the difference (I an't no good at no English). Please elaborate...

[Rachael Leigh]

I think from what I learned in that video is for the clinical definition Transgender is one who does feel more on the female
side of the spectrum and a pure as it were crossdresser is one who will dress in the opposite gender on occasion.
I'm really not trying to label either as I've said before I don't like it, but in my case as I come out to my coworkers I'm saying I'm transgender.
Yes we are all crossdressers some here like myself are more
Rachael Leigh

[Rogina B]

Majella,
To me crossdressing is the window to the World to show how we feel inside, I can list many labels which then apply but to the public we are CDers, The fact is we venture out which shouldn't be a problem but we do need to be able to explain clearly what we are. What really makes us tick, what drives a man to dress a as woman ?
We need to know ourselves clearly enough to answer those questions, the labels are important ,

You explain for you..and I will explain for myself...I sense a difference.. I don't "put it away at the end of the day"..

[susan54]

Though I spend most of my time in dresses, skirts or nightdresses I do not at any point identify as female. I am male and I wear womens clothes but these clothes do not have gender. Only people have gender and I am male so I am not transgender. Even when I go out and move and attempt to speak like a woman I am acting. I am no more a woman than someone acting as Napoleon is the Emperor. I feel at times that this site, despite its name, has been taken over by the transgender brigade. Nothing wrong with transgender, just saying. There also seem to be rather a lot of emails addressing the crossdressers and telling us we are wrong or deluded, that we really want to be women and won't admit it. I won't admit it because it would not be true.

[Princess Chantal]

I am honestly ignorant of the difference (I an't no good at no English). Please elaborate...

Many folks in the community cringe when the "ed" is added (well atleast here in Winnipeg). Most common explanation I have witnessed when someone was educating an individual that added the "ed" is that it is - a description of what you are, not what you do.

[Laura912]

Think I shall stick with mixed gender.

[BLUE ORCHID]

I am just a regular guy that likes to dress & look like a lady, No label needed...:daydreaming:...

[T Gram]

What is cisgender??

[Aunt Kelly]

OH crap here we go again.
Those were the very words that came to mind when I saw this thread pop up. They were followed quickly by, "Oh, puh-leez" and "Aaargh! Labels...."

[Sara Jessica]

One therapist suggested I'm lesbian (not sure about that).

Me either. Men cannot be lesbians. Fire your therapist, he's an idiot.

[Ineke Vashon]

After 32 posts I am now thoroughly confused :eek:. I think I will put on a skirt and a bra and have a glass of wine.

Ineke:drink:

[Julie Slowinski]

What is cisgender??

A person whose gender identity conforms with their birth sex.

[Kelsey dresses]

Your either full time or part time let's just keep it simple

[Julie Slowinski]

But, if we put the full time and part time people together, then what do we call that group?

[Jaymees22]

I consider myself to be under the transgender umbrella, but sometimes I get wet.

[Lydianne]

But, if we put the full time and part time people together, then what do we call that group?

hm . . :thinking:

"Mixed time?"
"Composite time?"
"Compound time?"

And my absolute favourite in more ways than one . . .

"Time-and-a-half" :).

Thank you, ladies! :bow:.

:tt:

[Tracii G]

Honestly do we really need to continue all this foolishness?

[Lydianne]

After further review, I guess I better make a sensible contribution just in case somebody is reading this discussion for the first time.

When I was new here, I read that CDing is a part of the broad spectrum of TG. As long as I can continue to wear a dress and pretty shoes, I'm OK with that. However, the problem is that people view themselves differently regardless of what the definitions are.. but the thing about labels is that they are applied from the outside regardless of whether the recipient believes they fit or not. So our attempts to get a harmonious consensus on how we label ourselves is.. irrelevant. The labels will be applied from the outside, regardless. But do we really want to do that to ourselves from within given that many of us have had to struggle in the areas where we grew up with the blanketing expectations of us which were applied automatically based on our birth sex whether we felt we were suited to them or not? Do we want to go through that again?

My thoughts? . . . how about "universal time?"

:2c:

[Teresa]

Rogina,
I don't either, I just slip my nightie on and moisturise my legs.

Like I said I'm just biding time, when I move on I won't have time to consider all this I will be just doing it as Teresa . I do explain it for me , if it applies to others that's fine but as I found sometime ago not many relate to my story for whatever reasons, I no longer have a problem with that I will just integrate it into my life and hopefully get on with it and enjoy it .

[Beverley Sims]

A persons view may change overtime and one will express views differently over the years, force of habit and freedom of "use" of the forums in expresion will not alter where I post my views....

[alwayshave]

I consider myself a crossdresser, but understand its just a label on the transgender spectrum.

[sometimes_miss]

I didn't mean to cause a fuss, it's just that the name of this forum is Crossdressers.com, maybe it should be changed to Transgender.com.
We'd lose a whole lot of people who are transgendered, but haven't resolved it yet. We see a lot of this in those who post things like 'it's all about the clothes, that's all', yet go through all the descriptions of how they want to change their voice, change there mannerisms, body language, and how they are 'only attracted to men when they are dressed as women'. Some will never be able to resolve this, all because their upbringing makes accepting being anything other than all masculine, all the time, unacceptable.

Someone is considered transgender if just dressing once in while is not enough and must present themselves in their perfered gender most of the time.
You left out, that it's not necessary to 'present themselves' to the public. They can simply adopt the attire, mannerisms and behaviors, even the ideals of their preferred gender. Basically, you can be transgendered, in the closet, and have absolutely no one else know.

After reading this and other threads and a bit of soul searching I have come up with the following definition:
Transgender Person - Anyone who does or desires to present themselves as a gender different than their birth sex, either in public or private and for any length of time.
Unfortunately that would include those who do it for entertainment purposes, and kids who are just trying out different roles. And we know that most of those folks aren't transgendered, so that would confuse the issue.

I think the reason we have so many labels is because we try to define ourselves with respect to what we are not.
Well, that will happen when folks try to label themselves, when they don't yet know what they are, because they were brought up to believe that it's absolutely unacceptable to admit what they were told is the worst thing that they can possibly be.

Who cares where I am on the spectrum?
The people who feel offended that you don't fit into THEIR belief of who are allowed to exist in the world.

What difference does it make?
Because some of them want to kill you. All because your existance makes them feel uncomfortable.

I, also, think that there is resistance to the transgender term because many here and in pop culture use 'trans' as short for transsexual.
Bingo. The bigoted hateful use the word tranny to describe anyone who doesn't fit into what they want to allow in their world.

But, I am evolving and the conscious logical part of my mind is making it easier for me to say 'I am transgender'
While I would prefer to do so, I just get tired of arguing who is what.

Some members don't like labels but I'm afraid we do need them if we are in the public eye, if we all stayed in the closet then none of this would be a problem. The fact is we venture out which shouldn't be a problem but we do need to be able to explain clearly what we are. My good friend who knows about my CDing tells me I'm too open , people don't want to know. His argument is that he doesn't go round telling people he's married or divorced. I believe he's wrong , the public don't question those issues but not many have seen a CDer, most do want to know out of curiosity
I wonder about the concept of 'most' there. At least in my experience, most people have already decided on what they think of us, they don't want to know more about us. They just wish we would go away. I see most of this in deeply religious believers because who and what we are, doesn't fit what their religions say is acceptable. And they're not going to give up their religious feelings to accept us. Which I kind of feel is odd, because for the most part, in western societies at least, the basic morals of how to treat others is with kindness and acceptance, yet so many wind up hating us because their particular leader tells them to.

Me either. Men cannot be lesbians. Fire your therapist, he's an idiot.
Depends. If you self identify as female, and are also only attracted to females, the new definitions would sort of imply that 'he' is a lesbian.

Honestly do we really need to continue all this foolishness?
Yes, because no one reads old threads here. All has been discussed before, but the threads get locked, so we have to keep repeating this for the new people who come with questions (is the search function still terrible? I stopped looking for stuff because I knew that I had posted stuff, but couldn't find the threads where I knew that I had posted them).
So yes, this is all necessary to help new arrivals. Be patient. Remember, there was a time when all of us were newbies.

[Ressie]

Yes, we even have to repeat ourselves in the same thread sometimes! Not many people are gonna get used to the idea that TG is an adjective. Modifying an adjective with "ed" or "s" doesn't make sense. Saying that "we ran across a group of transgenders" is technically incorrect. How can there be a plural form of an adjective? "Everyone in the group is transgender" would be correct. ed? Would we say that someone is prettyed, cuted or skinnyed?

If fact, as an adjective it doesn't even make sense to think of it as a label. Labels are nouns. But the way language changes TG may become a noun as well as an adjective. There are many words that are nouns as well as adjectives.

Next, IMO the general public, (even medical professionals) don't recognize or understand that someone can be transgender unless they can see it in one's personality. "In the closet" crossdresssers telling someone that they're TG only confuses people. If we say it while wearing an ear ring with tinted hair it will be credible.

The use of the word "transgender" has been confusing since it's more common use which makes me not want to use it. The word was coined in the '50s, but didn't become commonly used until the '90s.

[Krisi]

Transgender is an umbrella term that identifies anyone who is not cisgender. ...................

In some people's minds, perhaps, but not mine. I am a straight male crossdresser. I have no questions about my "gender".

[Pat]

Honestly do we really need to continue all this foolishness?

Tracii, I never understand this -- you don't like threads where people go over nomenclature; I get that. But you always break into those threads to complain that people are talking about it. You don't have to follow this thread. If you see a new one break out, just roll your eyes and go on to the next one. There are a host of topics that are common on this forum that I just skip over because while they're uninteresting to me, they're interesting to others.


In some people's minds, perhaps, but not mine.

As always, my standard disclaimer: I do not argue with anyone's evaluation of themselves. Only you know what you feel. However, when it comes to definitions of words, you don't get to redefine them. "Transgender" was coined in the early 1970's to describe a specific condition. We still need it to describe that condition. It is what it is.

[Krisi]

.......... However, when it comes to definitions of words, you don't get to redefine them. .

And neither do you.

[Sheila B Kelly]

Was never one for labels. I think I'll just stick to being me for now :)

[Krisi]

I think we would do better to go back to posting about our neighbor seeing us dressed, sharing clothes with our wives or where to buy realistic breast forms and hip pads. It's a crossdressing forum, we are all crossdressers so let's leave it at that.

[NicoleScott]

Pat, I agree with both points of your post above. We don't need posts that contribute nothing but only throw a wet blanket on other members' interests.
As to definitions, there is great inconsistency even among reputable sources, and transgender is the poster child for inconsistencies. Some sources define transgender as gender identity opposite birth sex, and some say gender identity and/or expression opposite birth sex. That's a big difference. Like Krisi, I identify as a guy always, even when crossdressed. Because Krisi doesn't identify as the gender opposite birth sex, she doesn't see herself as TG. I don't identify but sometimes express opposite birth sex, so I fall under the TG umbrella. Choose your source and always be right, I guess.
Or make up your own. I believe that many members here see themselves as TG, meaning more than CD, less than TS. Whatever that means.
I try to avoid using TG because I mean it one way but others read it another. A word that can mean anything means nothing. Even worse, trans.
Many dictionaries recognize transgendered as a word. Attempts to ban the word remind me of discussions about the word sissy, where some people think "I don't like it, so you shouldn't use it". I cringe when I see "high heals". Yikes! But I don't comment because forum rules protect members with different language skills. No heartburn here over transgendered.

[paulinescotlandcd]

After reading this and other threads and a bit of soul searching I have come up with the following definition:

Transgender Person - Anyone who does or desires to present themselves as a gender different than their birth sex, either in public or private and for any length of time.




I like this definition for what it's worth.

[Bobbi46]

Krisi has a very valid point this is a crossdressing forum we are all crossdresser. Yes and more doesn't it say in red just below the banner headline "the#1 community for crossdressers, there family and friends.
That says it all, as was originally posted and suggested the name should be changed the answer is absolutely no for this very reason it is an umbrella community for all regardless of where we are within that community.
Pauline I get your point but to take that a bit further a person who dresses just an hour a day or so here and there cannot be transgender they are plainly a crossdresser.
Transgender is a much deeper thing, I am not a crossdresser I am transgender because I dress all day everyday and live my life as a woman that makes me far more than a crossdresser I am transgender.

[Julie Slowinski]

I like this definition for what it's worth.
Thanks Pauline. Very nice to get some positive feedback. By the way, took a look at your Flickr page. Every single pic is a perfect presentation of elegance - I'm guessing that in regular life your profession is a personal stylist. You really set the bar high for the rest of us.

[GretchenJ]

I think we would do better to go back to posting about our neighbor seeing us dressed, sharing clothes with our wives or where to buy realistic breast forms and hip pads. It's a crossdressing forum, we are all crossdressers so let's leave it at that.

For you perhaps, comfortable that you are a straight crossdresser with no issues about your gender identity, then topics which you listed are the extent to which you receive any value from this forum.

As for others, crossdressing is a gateway activity which may develop into something inherently more internal. When gender dysphoria is involved, this may lead to those who become gender non-binary or to the end of the spectrum transition to the other sex.

As to the eye rolls, yes this subject has been brought up a lot. A lot ! Why, my theories (and they are just that), is that there is much rollover of new people, and yes to many people, myself included, label are damned important to me. I need to know what I am and what I am not, so that I can research the daylights as to like people and what they experienced. Plus what I thought I was a year ago is not what I think I am today. Look at this post for example, this may be the 56th post on terms and labels, but even among us, we still can't totally agree - how can we expect a newbie to grasp these concepts.

We also know darn well that this is not only a cross dressing site ( do you all consider those who post in the TS site to be cross dressing still?). There is no need to change the site name, because CD.com is the least common denominator to all of the aspects under the umbrella.

I do agree that that not all cross dressers are TG, but most TG's who have not transitioned cross dress. Then to Pat's point holds true, anyone who is not Cisgender is a TG (or a TS).

[Teresa]

Krisi,
I don't understand why you read some threads when you make these comments , if you feel they don't apply to you fine but many of us have issues going round in our heads that need resolving, it may have been discussed umpteen times but new members can make a contribution.

Neighbours seeing me is something I'm going to have to deal with, buying the various dressing items is superficial to many of us with TG and other issues .

[Paula DAngelo]

It amazes me that this thread has been going on as long as it has and that it has got as heated as it has. Every one of us that is posting is a member here and as such we all have access to the common areas of the board. It seems that people have forgotten that we're all here for each other, to help and not to pick each other apart. It also seems that there are plenty of people that haven't looked to closely at, or have chosen to ignore some of the stickies that the mods have created for us. We have a sticky in the intro section that defines some of the common terms for us. We may not agree with those definitions however they are the definitions for this site until the mods deem that they should be changed.

The following definitions come directly from that sticky and pretty much should end the debate on the meaning of the terms that some of the members here are trying to redefine:

Crossdressing (transvestism): Wearing clothing and adopting a gender role presentation that, in a given culture, is more typical of the other sex.

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Transsexual: Adjective (often applied by the medical profession) to describe individuals who seek to change or who have changed their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics through femininizing or masculinizing medical interventions (hormones and/or surgery), typically accompanied by a permanent change in gender role.

Using these definitions if you do anything (dress, act, think, whatever) that typically would be done by the gender other than what you were assigned when you were born you are a transgender individual (vary broad category) which would include most of the members here.

If you dress and present as other than the gender assigned at birth you would be considered a crossdresser. Therefor someone dressing and hoping to be treated as what they appear to be would be a crossdresser, where as someone that is just wearing the clothes but not trying to be other than what they are is not (MIAD would be an example) but they would still be a transgender individual.

Anyone is free to call themselves whatever they want, and if that's what makes you feel better about yourself fine, it's no concern of mine. When people try to change the meaning of terms to match what they want to be instead of using the agreed definitions all they're doing is causing confusion and discord among the members.

Like it or not the definitions have been spelled out for us and are what they are. If you don't like the definitions given then try and work with the Mods/powers that be to have them changed. Let's stop arguing over the little things and let's do what we can to help each other, not belittle each other.

[mykell]

i dont think majella meant it like a title fight for pay-per-view, but some argue :argue: semantics of it

in for a penny in for a pound.... this is the medical definition of the word https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender which to me encompasses all, inclusion....i never understand why some are so indifferent to be included....united and having a common cause....why such protest of being part of a group. are you insulted by it :Angry3:? do you feel superior to it :hmph: ? does it embarrass you :haha:?

it doesnt make one less of a man by standing by folks with similar interests.....when i first came here i considered myself a crossdresser.....(spellcheck dissed it again......but transgender is a word) i digress.....after much more objectivity i have learned that their is much more to it, so i may have joined crossdressers.com i am a member of the transgender community....it works for me.

[Lana Mae]

Thank you, Paula!!! Hugs Lana Mae

[Tracii G]

Pat you made my point thanks.
There is a search function but people just won't use it and that is why the horse gets beaten over and over.
And Pat I do pass over 50% of threads on here because its the same old thing pantyhose,bras and undies under your male clothes.

[Tina_gm]

in early 2013 I went to a very reputable gender counselor who explained that transgender is the umbrella term for any gender variant expression and identity. Now granted, there can be a few exceptions such as comedic purposes or for one to dress another as the opposite gender for an experiment or just to see what it is like. But, anyone who wishes to do so, or feels they are something other than their birth gender falls under the transgender umbrella. Again, that was coming from a reputable gender counselor in 2013. Oh how things seem to have changed even since then.

I believe it was Caitlyn Jenner who made a distinct difference between saying she was transgender, vs others who are just cross dressers. And the media sure has rolled with that. The media at large, along with many politicians and other official public services now see transgender as something other than just cross dressing. And many on here seem to wish to make such a distinction for themselves as well. Many on here have said exactly that they are just cross dressers and not transgender.

I consider myself to be transgender, though I do not consider myself to be a woman in a man's body. Or I should better state completely that as I feel the presence of a man within me as well. I dress in women's clothing because I hold an identity of some sort which matches this. Maybe its just simple enough that I am feminine enough to feel this way, feminine like a woman yet not one. Or who really knows for certain. I don't get too caught up with terminology as it is changing so rapidly that before anyone, even us can get used to a new term, another new term takes its place. I would love to see a jeopardy transgender show. Alex would become alexis of course, and obviously all answers would be answered in the form of a question. Maybe then when someone says what is transgender will we know for certain....

[Rogina B]

Next, IMO the general public, (even medical professionals) don't recognize or understand that someone can be transgender unless they can see it in one's personality. "In the closet" crossdresssers telling someone that they're TG only confuses people. If we say it while wearing an ear ring with tinted hair it will be credible. Yes ! And I will add..
When a person,that was "possibly not born a genetic woman" is standing in a line at an auto parts store at 7:30 am on a Monday morning..They are viewed as being transgender.. People don't play "dress up" for that...

[Allison Chaynes]

3 pages and no one has said it?

The difference between a CD and being Trans is 2 years. I forget what book I read that in, it's meant in humor, but there is some truth to it.

Now, with that said, as far as the TG umbrella, if you google it, CDs fall under it in some depictions but not in others. I cannot tell you why, it's basically the opinion of whatever person or group runs each site you pull it up on.

[IleneD]

I consider myself to be transgender, though I do not consider myself to be a woman in a man's body. Or I should better state completely that as I feel the presence of a man within me as well. I dress in women's clothing because I hold an identity of some sort which matches this..

GenderMutt,
Great post, especailly the last paragraph. That resonated with me, and explains much of how I also identify.
The Wife and I have been discussing at length and over the last weeks about my crossdressing. I give her credit of reaching out and trying to understand the phenomenon. One of the things she mentioned in regards to the online research she conducted (to learn more about the CD habit), was that she Googled "men who want to be women" as her keyword phrase. I was almost amazed she didn't go with "crossdressing" or "transgenderism" but the phrase she used made crystal clear sense. It also worked for her.

When one thinks about it, one of the things common to every dressing participant on this forum is we are men who want to be women. Some want that for a full time life identity. Others find it in a recreational sense, or one of the many manifestations of men in women's clothes. Whether you fully admit it or not, we are that indeed; men who wish to be women in some way.

For me a label doesn't matter. I suppose I am indeed transgender because my identity spans genders. I like the way you expressed it, Mutt. I can't reasonably divest myself of my male identity. It still comes in handy for many life situations, and the reality of my current existence makes a full transition too costly. But I also have the strong female identity screaming that I've always wanted to be a woman and still have a desire to dress and live as a woman. At this point I consider myself kind of a hybrid male/female identity.
I'm at peace knowing I'm transgender (and doing all I can do to entertain that side), and I'm OK with being "just a crossdresser" as my situation dictates. I'm equally proud of it all.

[Sara Jessica]

One therapist suggested I'm lesbian (not sure about that).


Me either. Men cannot be lesbians. Fire your therapist, he's an idiot.


Depends. If you self identify as female, and are also only attracted to females, the new definitions would sort of imply that 'he' is a lesbian.

While this is a tangent to the original premise, it is still related because it has to do with labels. Being a lesbian is not a state of mind that can be co-opted by men thinking they are being cute in their self-description. If anyone thinks otherwise, go play dress-up in your feminine best and prance into any lesbian safe space looking for a hook-up and see what kind of reception you get.

Labels are one thing but delusional proclamations of being something that by definition one cannot be gives credibility to those who attack our community with such comments to discredit what it is to be transgender and transsexual. Fortunately, those who stand on the mountain top proclaiming to be male lesbians are usually confined to pages such as these.

[BrendaPDX]

I have wondered the same thing, when cross dressing and meeting another cross dresser I will use the female terms like her or refer to us a gurls (when I am enfemme). Clearly we are not women or transgender and don't want to be, we are cross dressers. But the endearing terms when meeting or with others like us seem to bring us closer. There are so few of us that simply meeting another makes them almost like family.

[Krisi]

.......... CDs fall under it in some depictions but not in others. I cannot tell you why, it's basically the opinion of whatever person or group runs each site you pull it up on.

And some people post their "opinion" as fact, hoping to make others believe it is so.

[rachael.davis]

crossdresser - I can't wait to get home, and slip into a corset, and stiletto heels
transgender - I can't wait to get home, do my face, get into slacks and a nice top and meet some friends
transsexual - I can't wait to get home and get out of these damn heels - they're killing me

[Melissa Rose]

transsexual - I can't wait to get home and get out of these damn heels - they're killing me
.....and take off my bra and make-up then change into comfy pj's. That's is my Monday through Friday and sometimes Saturday life.

As for many things, labels have good and bad points. To some they are almost worthless and to others they are very helpful especially for those starting to navigate a new neighborhood. As you grow to better know the neighborhood, details as to whether it is a street, court or boulevard starts to be more meaningful. It is up to the individual, and perhaps context, as to how meaningful.

I doubt there will ever be universal agreement on label definitions. When you step back and clear out the noise, it is often the nuances and not the core definition that most disagree about.

I find it a little ironic that a group that pushes back against a gender binary appears to get worked up about a CD and TS binary label definition. Be who and what you are as long it is not harmful to others and the labels may not matter so much, however, misappropriating a label can lead to trouble in some cases.

I have to admit to sometimes going "Oh no, this old topic again". I have to remind myself to be patient and understanding as I was a newbie in the past. The fact that these topics reappear tells me many have the same ongoing questions or issues, and the answers are not readily evident. Trolls who like to stir things up is another story.

[Kayliedaskope]

crossdresser - i can't wait to get home, and slip into a corset, and stiletto heels
transgender - i can't wait to get home, do my face, get into slacks and a nice top and meet some friends
transsexual - i can't wait to get home and get out of these damn heels - they're killing me

>>>>> wins the internet for the day <<<<<

[Jessica S]

While this is a tangent to the original premise, it is still related because it has to do with labels. Being a lesbian is not a state of mind that can be co-opted by men thinking they are being cute in their self-description. If anyone thinks otherwise, go play dress-up in your feminine best and prance into any lesbian safe space looking for a hook-up and see what kind of reception you get.

Labels are one thing but delusional proclamations of being something that by definition one cannot be gives credibility to those who attack our community with such comments to discredit what it is to be transgender and transsexual. Fortunately, those who stand on the mountain top proclaiming to be male lesbians are usually confined to pages such as these.

I can't go along with your line of thought. And it looks like there is no room on the mountain top because your already standing there.

- - - Updated - - -


I have wondered the same thing, when cross dressing and meeting another cross dresser I will use the female terms like her or refer to us a gurls (when I am enfemme). Clearly we are not women or transgender and don't want to be, we are cross dressers. But the endearing terms when meeting or with others like us seem to bring us closer. There are so few of us that simply meeting another makes them almost like family.

I don't like the pronoun thing. We were all born male. I know those who are going to transition or did prefer the pronoun "her" which I understand. But I am not that so I prefer him even when dressed.


And some people post their "opinion" as fact, hoping to make others believe it is so.

Exactly.

I am a straight crossdresser, I don't identify as a women just like to try and look like one every now and then. But it seems that sometimes crossdressers.com doesn't have room for me or I am told I am fooling myself, I have to be more than that. I am not.

I am all for live and let live as long as your not trampling on others.

I have to chuckle at the "Humorous" labels, they may hold more truth.

[sometimes_miss]

3 pages and no one has said it? The difference between a CD and being Trans is 2 years. I forget what book I read that in, it's meant in humor, but there is some truth to it.
The problem with that statement, is that it's not true for all of us, and it scares the crap out of our SO's because it sort of insists that every single one of us wants to transition.

[Sara Jessica]

I can't go along with your line of thought. And it looks like there is no room on the mountain top because your already standing there.

No need for passive aggression. Tell us where I'm wrong. There's room on our mountaintop for everyone. Otherwise, I'll stand by what I said.

[Pat]

I am a straight crossdresser, I don't identify as a women just like to try and look like one every now and then. But it seems that sometimes crossdressers.com doesn't have room for me or I am told I am fooling myself, I have to be more than that. I am not.

It's totally valid to be a "straight crossdresser" and I'm pretty sure there's room here at crossdressers.com for you as well as for everyone else. Clothing is one of the most obvious gender role indicators we have in our society so pretty much everyone who is transgender in any capacity engages in crossdressing at some point. For some, like you, it's enough. For others, it's the gateway to where their search is going to take them. Because some people start here and move on, there's a false sense that being "just a crossdresser" is invalid -- they moved on, so they presume you have to move on too. They're wrong of course, and I understand it can be frustrating to be told someone else knows who you are better than you do. There really is no hierarchy under the umbrella.

[KimberlyJean]

I have a big problem with labels because I don't know where I fit. Mostly I just claim transgender because of the umbrella thing.

So...... I identify as a woman, I have for several years now, but due to LIFE I live most of my life as a man. When I had the epiphany that I was a woman it resolved a lot of my gender issues but did not resolve any of my life issues. I have a lot of responsibilities and commitments that are driving what I do most. I could quit my job and divorce my wife and walk away and start over but that is not very practical, and if I learned anything from my mother it is how to be a practical woman. So I split the difference as best I can. I have spent the last 10 days living as a woman and it has been eye opening and scary for me.

So my problem with the labels is that I am a woman, but there are crossdressers that probably spend more time dressed than I do. Does that make me less of whatever label we are debating?

[Silkydog]

I used to enjoy being labeled as one or the other. Sometimes I'm panties only, most of the time I'm an under dresser, and once in a while I love dressing all the way. I own a pair of breast forms. Now a label is just another way of someone judging me. Pretty soon the LBGTQ is going to include the entire alphabet. I don't need a letter, or a label. We are all different... Skinny/fat, black/white, Catholic/Muslim, old young, jock/nerd etc... Why do we need a label? If I wear men's clothes one day and women's clothes the next, I'm still me. The world has enough judging going on, I'm not going to add anymore to it.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
I'm only speaking from my own experiences , I have found we mostly intrigue people, we don't have the religious pressure that you appear to have in the US. Besides the whole LGBTG issue has been put more into the public eye , schools will now be rated on their acceptance policies among other changes.

Sara Jessica,
I have again explained this male lesbian issue in another thread, whether you feel it's delusional or not it's part of my inner feelings, I have explained to my wife and my gender counsellor undertstood it when I explained how my CDing started. I have no intentions of shouting it of in a lesbian community, not because of the rights or wrongs but if I find a new partner I will make it clear to her that it is part of me , a female part that truly desires women alongside my male feelings , there is a difference .

[Becky Blue]

I can't see what the fuss is to be honest. As far as I am concerned anyone can be whatever they wish to be. It seems to me that some on here are precious about being called Trans when they don't feel they are and likewise others who feel they are mislabeled as CD's when they are not. Who cares what the site is called and who cares who is reading/posting/contributing.

Labels are useful to assist ourselves in understanding who we are, but shoudl not be used against others IMO.

I myself feel that I am more than a CD but on the other hand I also don't feel like someone trapped in the wrong body so that makes me in the middle. I post and read threats in the binary forum but alas its pretty quiet there. So I mostly read and post here in the bigger area and hopefully contribute positively at times.

[Bobbi46]

Honestly, at the end of the day who needs labels anyway. Why don't we all just get on with our lives living them as each of us wish to do and leave the labels alone, why complicate life by trying to attribute a label for this or that.
Let us just enjoy what we have.

[Sara Jessica]

...but if I find a new partner I will make it clear to her that it is part of me , a female part that truly desires women alongside my male feelings...

Isn't that by definition a heterosexual male?

This is precisely where I have trouble getting my head around the male lesbian thing. You are about to enter what appears to be a transition of sorts. Whether you identify as a CD'er or TG or TS is important in the grand scheme of things with respect to being honest with yourself. It is also important when it comes to sexual preference and the seeking of a future partner. You may or may not be able to fulfill the emotional role of a woman in a lesbian relationship (which some might argue is most important) but physically, there'd be some obvious problems.

Generally speaking, women shun us in relationships because they don't want a feminine dude.
Gay men shun us because they like dudes.
Gay women shun us because underneath all of the paint and primping, we are still dudes to them despite what may be in our hearts.

Co-opting an oxymoron such as male lesbian doesn't change any of that.

[Kayliedaskope]

Honestly, at the end of the day who needs labels anyway. Why don't we all just get on with our lives living them as each of us wish to do and leave the labels alone, why complicate life by trying to attribute a label for this or that.
Let us just enjoy what we have.

The only place labels need apply is in retail stores.

You do YOU. 100 proof, unlabeled, unfiltered, uncensored. That's all there is to it.

[Teresa]

Sara Jessica,
I don' have a problem with you not getting it the fact you don't doesn't mean the situation can't exist , my gender counsellor told me I had a male/ female inner conflict and the female side was trying to take over. Also a member from down under agrees with the term , it's a more accepted term in her part of the World , she also added that some lesbian circles accept it's possible in both genders .

The estimate is 25% of the members of my social group are accompanied by their wives/partners and they enjoy it . I'm not intentionally looking for a new partner, if it happens then it happens !! I have discussed this possibility with my wife , the fact is I will be dressed and hopefully integrating into my community and running my art group. My wife also knows I've no interest in men in an intimate way .

[Jessica S]

Isn't that by definition a heterosexual male?

This is precisely where I have trouble getting my head around the male lesbian thing. You are about to enter what appears to be a transition of sorts. Whether you identify as a CD'er or TG or TS is important in the grand scheme of things with respect to being honest with yourself. It is also important when it comes to sexual preference and the seeking of a future partner. You may or may not be able to fulfill the emotional role of a woman in a lesbian relationship (which some might argue is most important) but physically, there'd be some obvious problems.

Generally speaking, women shun us in relationships because they don't want a feminine dude.
Gay men shun us because they like dudes.
Gay women shun us because underneath all of the paint and primping, we are still dudes to them despite what may be in our hearts.

Co-opting an oxymoron such as male lesbian doesn't change any of that.


So I guess if I take that line of reasoning all TS are just gay males. I assumes some here would think differently. We all know where assumptions get you. But then again I could be misinterpreting your line of reasoning. This is the way I see the thought process you laid out:
So if your born a male and you think your a female and then start to transition to female and like men your still a gay male. So you can't be a TS starting transition and like women and be a lesbian? Your born either male or female can only be gay/straight/bi according to your born gender.

Is that right?

Jessica from the mountain top.

[SaraLin]

(not sure why I'm jumping into this, but here I go)

Having experienced both GM-GG as well as T*/GG sex, I can say from personal experience that there is IMO a big difference between the two. And YES I mean more than the wardrobe and role-playing. The whole experience is different, and despite the physical limitations, the T*/GG lovemaking is much -MUCH closer to a lesbian relationship than regular hetero sex. Heck, sometimes the -uh- 'thing' wasn't even really involved all that much. It was more intimate and personal for one thing, and we both felt (as much as possible) we were loving another woman. And before you ask - the difference wasn't because of different partners. For I while, I was dating a BI woman, and we found loving each other in both modes to be fulfilling in different ways.

[Emily Myers]

I define myself as Gender Non-Conforming, but since I appear as Male in public, I consider myself a cross dresser due to that. I have thought about transitioning in the past, but have come to realize that gender shouldn't have boundaries, labels, or restrictions. If I want to watch The Mets game or do some other stereotypically male associated activity, while in a sexy outfit I will! I'm turning 20 in a month, and even when I'm out appearing as Adam, I get mistaken for a girl because of some feminine features and qualities I have such as my long hair, and frequently shaved face, smooth skin, etc. If someone refers to me as female, then apologize for thinking I'm a girl, I find it to be a compliment!
-Emily ✌️💖😁

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Im with Sara Jessica..
Male lesbian???
The appropriate response to that is ...ummmm No.

its a classic appropriation....

Being a Male lesbian is a fantasy. Nothing more. There is no such thing. It obliterates the meaning of the word male and the word lesbian..

you can't make up the meaning of words...hey I stink at grammar, and sometimes I misuse words without intent to misuse but feel like I'm getting my point across.
that doesn't make me right..

so I get it...I get the point of thinking that way, that struggling with gender is really hard and labels are problematic
...but I don't think anybody is well served by making stuff up to feel better about themselves.

[Tina_gm]

GenderMutt,
Great post, especailly the last paragraph. That resonated with me, and explains much of how I also identify.
The Wife and I have been discussing at length and over the last weeks about my crossdressing. I give her credit of reaching out and trying to understand the phenomenon. One of the things she mentioned in regards to the online research she conducted (to learn more about the CD habit), was that she Googled "men who want to be women" as her keyword phrase. I was almost amazed she didn't go with "crossdressing" or "transgenderism" but the phrase she used made crystal clear sense. It also worked for her.

When one thinks about it, one of the things common to every dressing participant on this forum is we are men who want to be women. Some want that for a full time life identity. Others find it in a recreational sense, or one of the many manifestations of men in women's clothes. Whether you fully admit it or not, we are that indeed; men who wish to be women in some way.

For me a label doesn't matter. I suppose I am indeed transgender because my identity spans genders. I like the way you expressed it, Mutt. I can't reasonably divest myself of my male identity. It still comes in handy for many life situations, and the reality of my current existence makes a full transition too costly. But I also have the strong female identity screaming that I've always wanted to be a woman and still have a desire to dress and live as a woman. At this point I consider myself kind of a hybrid male/female identity.
I'm at peace knowing I'm transgender (and doing all I can do to entertain that side), and I'm OK with being "just a crossdresser" as my situation dictates. I'm equally proud of it all.
I'd pretty much agree about "wanting" to be women, even if only temporarily. And the wanting to be vs. Being one trapped in a male body appears to be where the term transgender is headed. Crossdressers, non binary and any of the other sub categories within the transgender spectrum may be headed into their very own space without being part of a spectrum. Idk if that is a better or worse way of communicating who we are, basically because there's so much blending of who we are, along with those who progress through cder, to dual gender or nb, and eventually find their way to the path of transition. So maybe all gender variant roads lead to transgender, but not all of us will travel far enough to get there? I'm sure by this date in a few years there will be all knew verbiage and terms we will be disagreeing about.

[Sara Jessica]

Thank you Kaitlyn. Although yours could be the last word, some clarity is needed with respect to my comments...


Is that right?

No, it isn't. Using inference to put words into someone's mouth does not an argument make. In fact, your response leans towards hyperbole at best. But in all fairness, although I had attempted to lay out my point step by step, the origin was apparently lost on you.


I crossdress & consider myself transgender. I'm sexually attracted to females. One therapist suggested I'm lesbian (not sure about that). I'm not cisgender. I am closeted. Thats just me though. We're all different.

A self-described closeted crossdresser is told by a therapist that perhaps the term lesbian applies. This is just foolish. By definition a crossdressing male cannot be a lesbian.

So let's look at the inference that my contention applies to transsexual women. It cannot because a transexual woman who has physically and/or socially transitioned is simply a woman. The social part is important because not all transitioning women go down the GRS path, whether for medical, financial or other reasons. Regardless, if she has relationships with men, then she is a heterosexual female. She cannot be a gay male. If she is attracted to women, OMG...the "L" word!!! Nowhere am I saying or implying male lesbian.

Let me take this a half-step further by conveying how this applies to me personally, and Kaitlyn will remember this. I once made a contention that I am a woman. She was a girl, having been in my heart of hearts since my earliest memories. But my error was to conflate being a non-transitioning TS with what it is to be a woman. At best, the furthest along the path that I am willing to travel is that I am a non-transitioning transsexual with a rich social presence. Although my heart will continually argue with me, I fully accept that my experience does not make me a woman and despite the fact that my attraction is towards women (specifically woman, my wife), I could never lay claim to being a lesbian of any type (I'm sure that'd piss her off as well since she is not a lesbian either).

To bring it all full circle, TG / CD / TS are generally accepted terms of description with roots in the medical and scientific communities. The only requirement if one chooses to apply such a label is honesty about ones experience. But even so, we have all seen those comments by smart a$$es within internet comment sections which might say "I feel that I am a polar bear today..." in an attempt to delegitimize what it means to be a TS. Being a male, living as a male, claiming to be lesbian is something that can be easily seized upon as delusional by the outside world to further the "polar bear" argument. Like I said, I am relieved to have only seen it stated in the confines of these pages.

Finally, has anyone considered that a huge argument against what it is to be transsexual and whether we even truly exist is that we are simply males trying to assert male privilege into that ultimate bastion of what it is to be female? This is used to marginalize TS women on many fronts. I'm certain that the struggle against that injustice is not helped in the least bit by men running around claiming to be lesbians.

[Bobbi46]

Sara you make some very valid points here which I agree with, I have a very close friend who lives not far from me and who is MtF as well as GRS but she told me thinks of herself as a male lesbian? so I kindly ask this, where does my point fit in the whole scenario of this thread?

[Sara Jessica]

In terms of my points, this is an outlier. Why does your friend who is MTF with GRS consider herself anything other than a woman?

[Bobbi46]

Sara, another good point to which I do not have the answer, her telling me that was at the same time I was coming out to her and so much about me was being discussed that I did not probe that further If I get the opportunity in the future I will ask her just that very thing, it begs the question in having transitioned completely is she in fact happy being a woman or deep down inside is she thinking she made a terrible mistake and of course now there is no going back. The latter I feel I should not ask.

[Pat]

Sara you make some very valid points here which I agree with, I have a very close friend who lives not far from me and who is MtF as well as GRS but she told me thinks of herself as a male lesbian? so I kindly ask this, where does my point fit in the whole scenario of this thread?

There are thorny questions around people's evaluation of themselves .vs. outsiders' view of them. I always defer to a person's self-evaluation, though in the case where they're asserting they're a member of a group (lesbians) I think they have to defer to that group's norms and standards. Though honestly, for a TS, which I think is what you're saying your friend is, I wouldn't argue the lesbian thing either way. For a crossdresser, I find it a pretty egregious case of cultural appropriation. Various amounts of gray in between.

A bigger issue to me is that (and I'm just an opinion on the internet) normal sexual orientation terms (gay, lesbian, bisexual) don't really apply to transgender people. They have what's called a "cis encoding" meaning that the assumption that the person is cisgender is baked into the term -- a cisgender man who is attracted to other men is gay. A MtF transgender person who is attracted to men is -- what? Gay relative to sex? Straight relative to gender? -- the whole concept gets wrapped around the axle. To me it's an indicator that the word doesn't apply because it prevents rather than enables communication.

:2c:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

saying you are a male lesbian means you are a male that fantasizes about being a woman having sex with a woman...

that's pretty much it. what else could it possibly be??

nothing wrong with that at all...just call it for what it is


gender is so often conflated with sexuality.... calling yourself a lesbian doesnt make you a woman or partially a woman or kind of a woman ...

[AllieSF]

Let me take this a half-step further by conveying how this applies to me personally, and Kaitlyn will remember this. I once made a contention that I am a woman. She was a girl, having been in my heart of hearts since my earliest memories. But my error was to conflate being a non-transitioning TS with what it is to be a woman. At best, the furthest along the path that I am willing to travel is that I am a non-transitioning transsexual with a rich social presence. Although my heart will continually argue with me, I fully accept that my experience does not make me a woman and despite the fact that my attraction is towards women (specifically woman, my wife), I could never lay claim to being a lesbian of any type (I'm sure that'd piss her off as well since she is not a lesbian either).

Sara, This part I do not understand. It has been stated so many times here by transitioning and non-transitioning FtM transexuals, that the the TS person only has to be sure of their own being and declare that they are a woman, whether or not they do anything about it or not. They are all still women. To think otherwise from what I have learned here on this site and talking to my trans acquaintances is to dismiss all trans women who for "whatever" valid reason do not transition. You have declared here many times that you are a MtF TS. That to me means that you are a woman, no matter what you do or not now or in the future. Many may delay their transition to later in life, others maybe never. Your argument seems like that old TS crowd here that stated, and were refuted many times by their TS sisters, that you can only be a transwoman if you finalized your physical transition, in luding GRS, unless prohibited by health issues. Even that argument had "how much" variations, as in living full time or not, or having other surgeries or not.

[Teresa]

Pat,
You put it in a nutshell !
People's evaluation of themselves, Bobbi related to her friends feelings, she is obviously comfortable with that, I have to say I feel the same way. The fact someone else doesn't feel that doesn't mean it's not a true feeling. You can rename it female companion if it pleases people , but it is a different feeling from a male to female situation.

Sara Jessica,
I don't make these remarks to be contentious, I'm not interested in sparking an argument for the sake of it , I'm not a troll and I'm certainly not a POLAR BEAR !!

Kaitlyn,
It may have started as feelings associated with sex, but it has developed into a more embracing feeling .


.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i read that comment by sara and thought "dont be so hard on yourself sara"...

the label matters for communication.... after all if you are in your power suit with wingtips and a crewcut, saying "im a woman" isnt gonna get you anywhere...
but that's about choice and circumstance.... choosing to PUBLICLY identify as a man is just about getting by for a transsexual woman that doesnt find herself transitioning for any reason...

and if you dont live your life as a woman, labels can feel painful and be something to cope with as opposed to somthing you identify with..resulting in all kinds of mixed up communication..

if in your heart of hearts, you are a woman, then you are..
...and if you know this... everything else is just what you do about it...

[AllieSF]

Thank Kaitlyn, after all those contentious TS section threads, I actually remembered this and got it right.

Sara: You have revealed so much of yourself here that I have no doubt that you are a woman, no matter how you present or what you do. I understand some of your reasons for not moving further forward, and truly respect them and you. Only you know your own details and reasons. I only commented on that specific comment because I believe it to be incorrect as it applies to you and others who for whatever reason can't or won't move forward. As many have said before, one will probably suffer no matter what decision regarding transitioning they take. Please, just keep taking care of yourself as best you can.

[Tina_gm]

FROM Pat's quote-

A bigger issue to me is that (and I'm just an opinion on the internet) normal sexual orientation terms (gay, lesbian, bisexual) don't really apply to transgender people. They have what's called a "cis encoding" meaning that the assumption that the person is cisgender is baked into the term -- a cisgender man who is attracted to other men is gay. A MtF transgender person who is attracted to men is -- what? Gay relative to sex? Straight relative to gender? -- the whole concept gets wrapped around the axle. To me it's an indicator that the word doesn't apply because it prevents rather than enables communication.


I agree that gay and straight take on a different light. In terms of ts and fully transitioned to their identified gender there becomes a straight or gay as is normally thought of as. But in terms of those of us who are in the neither or both column of gender, we don't have the exact same sexual identity. My wife has pondered this actually and says (jokingly) I end up being gay regardless if it's male or female, to which I said, or straight regardless....

[Cherylgyno]

Majella. I am a cross dresser. Yes being a cross dresser is within the definition of transgender. I have D cup breasts due to gynecomastia. I don't wish to transition.

[Diane Taylor]

I don't get involved with labels.......a whole lot of fuss over nothing.

[Sara Jessica]

Allie & Kaitlyn, your replies mean more to me than you could ever understand. I've actually felt kind of like I was on an island pretty much ever since those more contentious days...quietly fighting my own battle and in a way, actually winning to a certain extent. Allie, I read yours a few times before it really sunk in but I hear what you are saying. In a way I was beaten down and for my situation, it turned out OK. Kaitlyn actually made the point succinctly that I tried to make so very long ago. In my heart I'm a female, and always have been. It's just a matter of what to do about it. In my case, very little to this point. This speaks exactly to what you are saying Allie. Because I haven't done much to further that cause, I am hesitant to issue a woman proclamation when presenting as the dude that I portray most of the time. Despite the reality in my heart, I have so much respect for the (TS) women in these pages and those who I know IRL to co-opt the woman as a term of art. But yes, anyone in a situation similar to mine gets that nod-nod-wink-wink because we know the truth...even if some of us are hesitant to shout it from the mountaintops.

And Teresa, my heart aches for your situation but I believe it to be as real as anyone here. What I cannot know from your writings that I have read is exactly how you identify which is why I addressed the distinction in an earlier reply to you. It may very well be that I have missed something. However, in my book, it seems you are about to embark on a social transition at the very least which means to me that if you wish to use lesbian as a term of description, you're not likely to hear dissent from me (like that would even matter in the least bit). But please, drop the male and it'll be all good :)!!!

[Teresa]

Sara,
This is where the problem lies, maybe it's why I was corrected to use bi-gender instead of male lesbian, I've mentioned a male/female conflict which my gender counsellor suggested after going through my CDing history. The point I'm making is I don't want to lose my male parts and yet I much prefer and will be presenting as a woman in the future. These feelings are very static so I can rule out being gender fluid, I don't float from one to the other .

Whatever my identity is I'm comfortable with it , OK there is a sexual component . I posed the question in the TS section sometime ago of what happens when the T level drops either naturally or with hormones, I do feel the TS road may change for me if and when that happens. The problem there is age will be against me for any drastic changes, that is just being realistic .

[Lacey New]

Transgender is an umbrella term that identifies anyone who is not cisgender. You may be confusing it with Transsexual which is a particular kind of transgender person. So, except for those crossdressers who somehow claim they are cisgender despite the need to wear women's clothing, crossdressers come under the transgender umbrella.
I can understand and accept this definition. I have no desire to live as a woman, transition or take on any kind of male partner. I am a completely heterosexual male who very much likes to dress up as a woman from time to time and I enjoy underdressing frequently. As such, I consider myself as a male cross dresser. After much discussion about male lesbians, I am not that. I do not nor have I ever felt as if I was or am a woman. I simply like to cross dress. So, I do not consider myself transgendered at all.

[CarlaWestin]

Yep, Lacey. That's me, too.

[Mirya]

Although 'transgender' is currently an umbrella term, I don't think that will be the case 10 years from now. To most people (such as a random shopper at a grocery store), a transgender person is simply someone who transitions completely from male to female (or vice versa). This is what they understand to be true because they see people like Caitlyn Jenner, Laverne Cox, and Chaz Bono in the media and they are called transgender people.

In order to change that trend, more crossdressers and non-binary people will need to come out publicly as transgender, put their lives and careers on the line (as TS individuals have), do nationally televised interviews, and so on. But I don't see that ever happening. The voices of CDs and NBs will disappear in comparison to the more public TS voices and will continue to exist only in anonymous safe spaces such as these forums. The vast majority of the general public will never see or hear anything contrary to the idea that has already been placed in their minds that transgender = full transition from male to female.

If you don't want that to happen, then you should do something about it. :)

[LilSissyStevie]

The difference between crossdresser and transgender is that crossdressing is a behavior and transgender is a construct that attempts to draw many disparate groups under its "umbrella" for political purposes. Once you have been assimilated under their umbrella, the transgender borg then attempts to police how you may dress (nothing too tarty, now!) and which identities are acceptable (NO male lesbians or bi-when-dressed, for example.) This is an umbrella that blocks the light rather than the storm.

[Mirya]

transgender is a construct that attempts to draw many disparate groups under its "umbrella" for political purposes.

Wow, I thought I had heard everything but this is completely new to me. :)

[Princess Chantal]

Stevie, I so love your post and you did hit the nail on the head with it.

[Fiona123]

I crossdress and I am transgender in that I consider my self at least 50% female in terms of gender identity quite possibly more. The crossdressing is an expression of my female identity. Being trans is way more than a mere construct.

[daphne_L]

I haven't been around this forum for a while, so maybe it has changed. But what I liked about the forum when I was here before was how generally accepting it was of all the variations of people who were not cisgender female yet wore female clothes for some reason. It seemed like many of us had interests in common and we could get relevant value from many of the posts, even those by other variations than ourselves. Despite the fact that some of the posts here are not relevant to me, I find the signal to noise ratio very high. Much of the signal is from those different than myself, and much of the noise is from those similar to myself. For that matter, some of the most valuable posts in the past have been by GGs.

I for one would lose interest in this forum if it started excluding everyone that might be considered too transgender, or not transgender enough. Let people label themselves if they want, but don't force labels on anyone.

Let's not tear ourselves apart. Let's not let ourselves, as a community, be constrained by the name of our forum any more than we let ourselves as individuals be constrained by our genetics or societies expectations of us. The name of the forum has worked well so far, don't change it.

Daphne

[Teresa]

Mirya,
Whatever label I choose to use I do intend to go out there and be heard , it may not be much but if all goes well I hope to run an art group from my new home. I've already contacted the SAA ( Society of All Artists ) for assistants and to ask if they have any other TG members already doing this.

Some weeks ago I joined up with two other members of my social group to attend a pride week at Boston ( UK ) college to represent the TG community and hopefully help any students with CDing problems.We spent the day dressed obviously in the public eye . The following day a TV crew did shoot some footage for a regional news program sadly I couldn't attend through other commitments .

I do agree that the public now days are more likely to think we are TSs , I did post a thread about the label problem titled , " Who's getting it wrong ?" after watching a documentary on being transgender .

Dandizette/Stevie,
That notion seams a little screwed up to me , maybe gathering the groups together for political purposes is the feeling you get from the current situation in the US. In the UK the outward thinking is gaining some momentum , it's not all to the good because some tiny minority groups are have too much sway , I'm personally not too happy with the way schools are going .

[susan54]

OK, I take all the comments about labels on board but in all the recent publicity we mere cross-dressers have got a bit lost. Schools should just allow pupils to wear what they want without any boy wanting to wear a skirt or dress doing so without having to identify as a girl. It has probably got to a stage where the public assume that all guys who wear skirts want to become women and we don't (as is evident from this thread). There is only so much one cross-dresser can do by venturing out as a man in womenswear (though to be honest it is less daunting to go out dressed and acting as a woman which is also good fun, but it is ACTING). Having a voice for the cross-dressers would be useful.

It has now got the stage where we can try on clothes in womenswear shops and departments as a matter of routine (at least in the UK), which would not have been possible ten years ago. Now we need to get to a stage where anyone can wear these clothes, just as women mostly wear whatever they want. Other countries have males wearing skirts (but only Scotland in the west and these are very particular types of skirts with little scope for variety of style) and able to look smart at work - it could be done in the west. Women achieved it with trousers - we need to do it with skirts.

[Teresa]

Susan,
To take you up on this point about UK state schools changing their dress code. Some parents are not happy with the situation because they have taken away the right for girls to wear skirts or dresses , some still want the choice and not have to accept unisex uniforms.

The same has happened in the NHS , my wife was telling me of some nurses being annoyed because their figure is best suited to a dress rather than a tunic and trousers .

I'm not sure ifI go along with your comment that dressing in womenswear is no more than acting, if your are on the TS road it's so far removed from that.

[susannma]

Hi, I know that I am wrong, but I will never use the term transgender about myself. I find the word assosieted with lot of stuff that I am not.

But I am happy to use crossdresser.

Reason is that to many put much more than just dressing up into the word transgender, like acting like the opesite sex, also way to many belive one are gay, when using that term. Even if most crossdressers are actually straight.

Edited:
By the way, in my world, the terms TV, TS, TG and CD all have diffrent meening.

CD - Cross dress = to dress in clothing typically worn by members of the opposite sex.
TG - Transgender = noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to that person’s biological sex assigned at birth
TS - Transsexual = a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
TV - Transvestite _ a person, especially a male, who assumes the dress and manner usually associated with the opposite sex

[susan54]

Teresa

Getting a bit tired of people on this site claiming that they know me better than I do. I am not on the TS road - not remotely. I NEVER lose sight of the fact that I am a man, and I am very happy to be male. If you are talking about other people then make that clear.

[Cherylgyno]

Majella. Very good question. I can only speak for myself. I wanted breasts since I was 6 year's old. I was blessed with D cup breasts due to gynecomastia in my 50's. I am taking supplements for the purpose of increasing the size of my breasts. I am under dressed 24/7/365.
I consider myself to either be a m to f cross dresser or a person that wears clothes that I am comfortable in. My PTSD Dr says that I am gender dysphoric and thus a member of the transgender community. I do now and always will go with I am a cross dressing male.
I hope that I have satisfactorily answered your question.

[Sara Jessica]

Teresa

Getting a bit tired of people on this site claiming that they know me better than I do. I am not on the TS road - not remotely. I NEVER lose sight of the fact that I am a man, and I am very happy to be male. If you are talking about other people then make that clear.

No one is putting a label on you despite being a man named Susan. Your protest is quite loud. If you are in fact a crossdressing dude as you make yourself out to be, then no will will accuse you of being transgender or heaven forbid, transsexual. But please know that while you may not be transgender, your behavior falls under that umbrella. Makes sense as I'm not sure where else you'd put it.

[daphne_L]

OK, I take all the comments about labels on board but in all the recent publicity we mere cross-dressers have got a bit lost. Schools should just allow pupils to wear what they want without any boy wanting to wear a skirt or dress doing so without having to identify as a girl. It has probably got to a stage where the public assume that all guys who wear skirts want to become women and we don't (as is evident from this thread). There is only so much one cross-dresser can do by venturing out as a man in womenswear (though to be honest it is less daunting to go out dressed and acting as a woman which is also good fun, but it is ACTING). Having a voice for the cross-dressers would be useful.

It has now got the stage where we can try on clothes in womenswear shops and departments as a matter of routine (at least in the UK), which would not have been possible ten years ago. Now we need to get to a stage where anyone can wear these clothes, just as women mostly wear whatever they want. Other countries have males wearing skirts (but only Scotland in the west and these are very particular types of skirts with little scope for variety of style) and able to look smart at work - it could be done in the west. Women achieved it with trousers - we need to do it with skirts.

I would hate it if women's clothing became normal men's wear. If all the clothing on the female side of my closet were normal wear for a man, it would be on the male side of my closet. The female side would be empty! I wouldn't be able to Cross Dress! How depressing!

Daphne

[Teresa]

Susan,
That comments goes both ways, if you feel you are just acting then say clearly it only applies to you but it doesn't apply to people with GD and TSs. Also I did imply you were TS I was referring to those who are .

It's the same with some saying it's a hobby, they should realise that doesn't apply to everyone, I would feel it's an insult to make that comment to my wife and family , I could never go through a separation over a hobby .

[Georgette_USA]

Took me a while to read all this.
Yes it does seem like this community does like to argue terms/labels or what-ever.

As some one who fully transitioned from 1974-1977, and consider myself to be fully a woman first, a MtF Post-Op TS 2nd.

Back in my day, the DSM II, only describes the condition of Transvestite. Not sure when name CD mostly replaced TV as a nicer name. TS did not get put in until DSM III in the 80s I believe. TS was a name that Dr Harry Benjamin, see his book "The Transsexual Revolution", and others came up with to describe people that would fully transition.
I had heard of the name TG mainly from some in the TV community to describe someone who lived as a "woman" but did not transition.
In the 70s other than a Court Legal Name change, There were NO legal rights for TV or TS, and as with the Gay/Lesbian communities could be locked up in jails.

My partner and I left the fragmented community of Gay/Lesbian/TS/TV behind in 1983. Don't know when the whole LGBT(QIA+) came about to describe an actual related community, I think it was for political reasons as someone said.

In 2014 my partner died, and I decided to find out what all had changed in that time.
As some have said, to the general public TG=TS. So much for it being an umbrella term.

What I heard later was many in the TS community like TG because it took the Sex part out and put Gender in. Plus many would find TS objectionable because of the Porn Industry using it for their own use.

I argue that to use the cis-gender terms of Gay/Lesbian/BI to be so confusing in the TG/CD/TS world. I'm not even sure we need to keep using those names, except people like to proclaim, "I'm straight" so I must be OK. The scientific community has much better names to describe sexual preferences/attractions.
"Androphilia and Gynephilia are terms used in behavioral science to describe sexual orientation, as an alternative to a gender binary homosexual and heterosexual conceptualization. Androphilia describes sexual attraction to men or masculinity; Gynephilia describes the sexual attraction to women or femininity."
And my favorite that a lot have a problem with.
"Autogynephilia (AGP) is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism."

I have seen people use names like "Male Lesbian" "Trans Dykes" or "NB-TS" or others that make me question what other terms/labels we can come up with.

If people want to call themselves whatever they want to, GO ahead but it may be confusing to many around you.

If you want to see some interesting discussions, look in the TG/Non-Binary area.

In the TS area, we can have Pre- Post- Non- (transition or Op), for a variety of reasons. And transition can be Social or Medical (HRT) or Surgical. But all are still considered TG/TS.

These are just some of my quick learning in my 66 year existence and 40 years Post SRS.

[Bobbi46]

Susan,
To say that Dressing/TG/TS and everything else is a "Hobby" is to say the least a derogatory and insulting statement to make suggesting that that is so for all of us. It is never a hobby not now and never will be.
This is a serious issue for all of us who are committed to being the way want to be.
It is not a hobby for me or anybody, a hobby is something you day on and off and can be walked away from easily. Dressing and everything is not a hobby it is not something that can be walked away from at any time.
It might be a hobby for you but no way is it a hobby of mine it is a commitment to lead a feminine way of life in every way possible.

[Tracy Irving]

Clearly wearing women's clothing means different things to different people. And we are all different here.

I am probably totally wrong on this so feel free to correct me...

When I read posts in this section (male to female crossdressers), without a disclaimer to the contrary, my default position is that they come from a perspective that is not transsexual. Just as I would assume posts in the transsexual section (transsexual forum) would contain that bias.

Honestly, I don't care where anyone puts their thoughts, opinions and advice. I understand this to be a very popular section (with lots of traffic) so it makes sense to post here.

[Teresa]

Georgette,
I'm grateful you've taken the trouble to give us a historical run down of the whole issue.

I've finally realised I have AGP , but had find out more away from the forum, what you describe is the basic idea but there is a great deal more to it and covers TGs as well as TSs .