Transgender awareness

[irenetancd]

We know there are a lot more crossdressers in the population, but most of us are closeted crossdressers. It can be quite difficult for members of the public to understand the reasons/freedom/choice of someone who crossdress. What do you think are some of the effective actions we can take for us to increase the transgender awareness to the general public?

Someone once told me to take bold action to crossdress in very public places; shopping malls, Pride parade, comic con events, Halloween parties, and walking in busy town centre during day time.

I asked GG opinions on these before and they too agree that they are more accepting if crossdressers really make their presence felt. They told me that crossdressing in quiet places (empty car parks, night time on the street) brings the impression of someone who is awkward and creepy.

Would love to hear your comments.

[Micki_Finn]

It’s not just presence, but what you DO with that presence. It’s being an ambassador with your actions.

[Tracii G]

I look at it this way if you don't participate and by that I mean get out there and be seen in public acceptance will be a long time coming.
Empty places at night is silly no one there so why bother ? I know the unseasoned CDer thinks thats a great place to appear because no one is there and they won't be seen.
They don't understand the seedy people all come out at night and they will be seen by people that may do them the most harm.

The only way I know of create awareness is to be yourself get out there and be seen with the stipulation that you dress and actually try your best to look respectable.
Dressing like a 2 dollar hooker because you think its sexy and hot is not going help the cause so to speak.
I have a lot of opinions that CDers hate so I will leave it at that.

[Jenny22]

"Chief" Tracii is correct. The normals must see more then a MIAD. And, IMHO (no offense meant), whiskered faces should not venture out in feminine dress.

[jack-ie]

I agree Tracii. Unfortunately, I think the sexy, two dollar hooker look is a phase many of us go through when we first begin to fully dress. I know I did. Fortunately, for me, I had an understanding SO to guide me towards more tasteful attire. Women don't dress like that when going out to dinner or shopping and it certainly won't help bring about acceptance. It is possible to be attractive, sexy, and tasteful at the same time.

[Pat]

Someone once told me to take bold action to crossdress in very public places; shopping malls, Pride parade, comic con events, Halloween parties, and walking in busy town centre during day time.

I'd say you needn't take BOLD actions -- i.e. actions that make you nervous -- but take comfortable actions in those places you mention. Do what's right for you. In addition, you can put a transgender flag sticker on your car, or TG flag pin in your lapel. Fly the TG flag on days that are meaningful (Transgender Day of Rememberance, Day of Transgender Visibility, or any of the LGBT pride days.)

Again, do what you're comfortable with. I think we send the most correct and compelling message when we don't make a point that we're special, but that we're ordinary. People will understand us a lot better, I think, if they see that we're in the grocery store to buy food, in the restaurants to have a meal with our friends, strolling around the mall to shop -- just like they are.

[NicoleScott]

So the message is: get out there for the cause of public acceptance, UNLESS I don't like how you express yourself.

[Meghan4now]

Wear a button that says "I am Trans!!! And don't call me Shirley"

[Kayliedaskope]

"Chief" Tracii is correct. The normals must see more then a MIAD. And, IMHO (no offense meant), whiskered faces should not venture out in feminine dress.

Be careful, hon, and don't say that around Phili - she'd be all over you like cheap perfume. :)

However, I do respect your opinion. Me personally, I would fall into that category more than a few times myself ...

[Tracii G]

So the message is: get out there for the cause of public acceptance, UNLESS I don't like how you express yourself.

Totally missing the point Nicole.
Yes Pat exactly.

[Dana44]

I do my part. I go out and about and enjoy being myself. But I don't see any of our sisters out here. I would like to see the closet ones get out.

[Teresa]

Irene,
I understand your question but may I ask what have you been doing since joining the forum in 2009.

You must have read hundreds of threads on this subject, you must have a clear answer by now .

To give you my personal answer I found taking the plunge and joining a social group is the best way to step out the door into the public eye .

Over the next 18 months I've been with other members to represent TGs in a pride week , that is the way we can improve awareness .

My plan for the future is to run an art group from my home dressed, I'm hoping it's going to work because I will be integrating into the local community.

The hurdles to get over are accepting yourself , know exactly what your are, step out of the closet and start to live as you truly feel .

[Tracii G]

Teresa I can see how your whole out look has changed in the last year and I'm glad you have started to blossom.Good for you.
Trying to convince closet dressers to come out is fruitless so I quit trying to encourage them.
Some people will always remain in the shadows and let others to the heavy lifting so to speak and continue to complain how things are.

[AllieSF]

Tracii, don't stop encouraging people to get out of their closeted lives. It works for some and not others. People have a hard time being forced to do something, but encouragement works better for the long haul. Everyone has their own fears and worries, justified or not. Encouragement and happy results presented on this site helps others from letting some fear cripple their own lives and freedom. Some fears are real and need to be respected, as in losing a job, income, relationships with others.

You, others like you, including me, have no troubles going out, others do have issues, some self created and others real as described.

I am one of those believers that each and everyone of us who go out helps ourselves, others like us and the unknowing public see that we are mostly just regular people very much like them. People like Caitlyn Jenner, Laverne Cox and others can make a bigger impact than us, but the world still needs the rest of us, those that can do it, to build on their helping people realize that we exist, will not be going away and are good people too.

[Rogina B]

Interaction with your local butcher,baker,and candlestick maker makes for TG awareness. As does the grocery store,auto parts store and the drug store....They are all happy to have you as a customer.

[sometimes_miss]

Being in the closet, I do my part by defending those who show up as patients while crossdressed or in any way presenting as transgender. Sometimes the biggest influence is someone who supports, yet appears to have nothing to gain by supporting someone else's behavior. As an 'out' crossdresser, they would simply look at me and say, 'well of course he supports TG/CD/TS, he's one of them'. But when they don't know? It carries more weight, because it appears to be coming from an objective source.

[Alice Torn]

I am not a "group think" person. More like John Wayne, in a dress and wig!

[Tracii G]

No Allie I'm done never again.
People these days just don't have the fortitude to do things for themselves they just like to wallow in pity.
Every time I have mentioned that someone has the power to go out if they want to I get raked across the coals for even thinking it much less telling a person they can do it.
Society is flipped 180 out of whack. What used to be good is now bad and what used to be bad is good/normal.
Its messed up thats for sure.

[Pat]

People these days just don't have the fortitude to do things for themselves they just like to wallow in pity.
Every time I have mentioned that someone has the power to go out if they want to I get raked across the coals for even thinking it much less telling a person they can do it.

I'm having a little trouble following the logic." People these days just don't have the fortitude," which seems to imply in previous times they did. And yet, in previous times, (let's say 1950's? 60's? 70's?) there were fewer of us out in public than there are today. I don't think the incidence of transgenderism in the general population has changed, so there must have been as many of us in existence and yet fewer people were out walking around. So it would seem they were lacking fortitude. But today there are more people out so there must be more fortitude today, right?

You and I (and others) are out walking around. We're doing it for our own reasons. Presumably we looked at the risk/reward and said we were going for it. If anyone tried to stop us, they'd get an earful. These other folks have done the risk/reward assessment for themselves and said the benefits weren't there. We wouldn't allow our choice to be questioned, why should we be questioning theirs? It's totally fair for us to argue that the risks aren't as large as they think and the "reward" for staying closeted is no reward at all. But we have to respect them and their right to choose. Even if we disagree or feel disappointed in them or whatever.

[Tracii G]

See what I mean Allie I even suggest it and someone wants to show me how wrong I am and takes me over the coals again.
I knew better than to post because I knew this would happen.
I rest my case.

[AllieSF]

Tracii, your definition of over the coals is obviously different from mine. Pat is just giving you and us her opinion. I don't think that I have ever read anything from her that could be described that way. I believe that more of us should go out. But, I would not shame, coerce nor complain when someone decides not yet, even though they do eventually want to get out. I would try to help them make those first steps. Everyone deals with their own fears in their own ways. I have accompanied many on their first times out and even had a few cancel at the last minute. It only bothered me when they did not give me timely notice. Your point of view is just as good as mine even if we disagree. We do not need to agree and can respect each other's opinions even if we think they are not correct. We both, as well as, everyone else, have different experiences which help create our own personalities with our own fears and foibles, and I do have my own for sure that many people may never understand!

[TheHiddenMe]

I'm a big fan of Dan Savage, the sex advice columnist, and he's a firm believer in the idea that visibility brings acceptance. He believes (rightly so, IMO) of the acceptance of gays in the populace was caused by more and more gays coming out of the closet, so that straight people knew someone who was gay, and that changed the acceptance of gays in a large part of the population (there is still a percentage not accepting, of course, generally from fundamental Christians, or members of a certain political party--unless of course, the members of that party happen to have a gay son or daughter).

My wife often asks me what will I do if I get outed? I tell her then I would start doing outreach, public speaking and the like.

I've gotten out probably 20+ times over the last year (went out today). The SAs at my favorite Nordstrom know me, and are happy to see me. I try to be a positive role model for CDs; dress appropriately, be polite, etc. I've never had a bad experience, but many, many positive experiences.

I think the emergence of Caitlyn Jenner is also a positive. When a muffle sees a TG person, they don't know whether that individual is on the TS spectrum or the cross-dressing spectrum. I think her emergence has also helped the visibility of TG individuals.

In the end, as more CDs come out, I believe the stigma of being of CD will lessen. But it's going to take a while.

[Julie Slowinski]

I'm a big fan of Dan Savage, the sex advice columnist, and he's a firm believer in the idea that visibility brings acceptance. He believes (rightly so, IMO) of the acceptance of gays in the populace was caused by more and more gays coming out of the closet, so that straight people knew someone who was gay, and that changed the acceptance of gays in a large part of the population.

I'm also a big fan of Dan Savage and agree that knowing a tg person personally can have a huge impact on someone's perception of an otherwise abstract group of 'those people'. Once I come out to those important to me (most notably my kids), I figure the rest of the world will be a nonissue. It's actually one of the things I'd like to look back on with pride on my deathbed - I hope I find the courage.

[Teresa]

I'm not sure if I've read it right but I assumed Irene was either out or wants to find the best way to come out .

I answered on that basis , I know it's a short time for me compared with some being out even so I'm happy to pass on what worked for me . Going out to a group is the easiest way of dong it, aimlessly walking round a shopping mall wondering if you've been being read or is getting it back to front . I go out and shop because it now has a reason, putting outfits together initially for my meeting has now extended into shopping for everyday wear . OK I admit that is still in drab because of the current circumstances , when I move to my own home then that situation will change .

I'm with Allie on this one, going out and passing our experiences on is the right thing to do. From an old thread I discovered what percentage of members were out or wanted to be out, the figure from those wanting to remain in the closet was very small .

Tracii, don't give up on it!
Given the circumstances I would be happy to meet you for coffee in a public place rather than still be peering round curtains wondering what the neighours think .

TheHiddenMe,
That's the conclusion I've come to , the public don't know where we are on that road , all they see is a CDer, they don't know what parts we have , so may not pass comment , I mostly get a smile from GGs and the "will I or won't I look " from guys . Most avoid eye contact, I have to smile because I'm thinking they're are assuming it's contagious !

[Jean 103]

It's easy, just go out and make friends. I've done it , going out in the general public, talking to people. It starts to snowball , it wasn't long before I had to come out. That and I started living as Jean.

[mechamoose]

"Chief" Tracii is correct. The normals must see more then a MIAD. And, IMHO (no offense meant), whiskered faces should not venture out in feminine dress.

What if I'm not trying to appear as a woman?

Your point is fair if you only consider CD people who are actively trying to 'present'. I'm a MIAD (Moose in a Dress), and I do it as a matter of self expression. I think any visibility which raises awareness is worth doing.

<3

- MM

[Raychel]

Pretty much the same as Moose here, Just a man in a dress.

Full on dressing from mthe neck down, Breast forms, dress, pantyhose, heels,
the full kit from the neck down.
Not being one much for confrontations, I will not be venturing out in public soon, :daydreaming:

Major Kudo's to those that do, I only wish I had that kind of courage. It sure does bring awareness to the forefront.

[sarah_hillcrest]

Lots of issues here.

I think some people go out less to satisfy their personal self expression and more to satisfy a sexual kink and that's not cool. For example standing at the checkout line in Barnes and Noble when a old guy walks in wearing clothing appropriate for an 8 year old including way too tight My Little Pony T shirt and crazy short pink shorts. He stands there puts his hands on his hips and looks around, everyone tries to not look at him, then he walks out. It would have been awkard for any adult to be dressed that way in a public space. Not illegal, and perhaps not morally wrong, but its the last thing that is going to garner CD acceptance.

I have nothing but respect for those who dress appropriately with the goal of self expression to go about their daily lives. Those are the ones who will help make CD more accepted, but with this Catch 22, if they are really achieving their goal no would ever know LOL!

[jacques]

, whiskered faces should not venture out in feminine dress.

well that's me confined to my closet - thanks
luv J

[Tracii G]

Just to clarify my point I have no issues with the concept of a MIAD its just clothes and its their choice.
Ms Moose and and Phili dress with style and are respectable.Even a bearded man in a dress is fine with me.
Its the others like Sarah Hillcrest described that I take issue with because its not helping to normalize CDing for anyone.
It just confirms the public's view that we are all disgusting freaks like that person.

[Jean 103]

mechamoose, what I said stands for you too. If you want to put on a skirt and go out , then do it. Talk to people, let them get to know you as a person. This is how you change their perception of you. I have met two persons dressed this way.

Sarah, that's just ridiculous. Do if you put on a diaper and cowboy hat, stand on a street corner long enough, you become part of the landscape.

[Julie Slowinski]

What if I'm not trying to appear as a woman? Your point is fair if you only consider CD people who are actively trying to 'present'.

Hey Moose, I don't think ones approach to dressing should be of concern (makeup or beard - their still going to know we started out as a dude). What matters is that we are friendly and personable, and others see that we are real people with feelings.

To the question of dressing appropriately (brought up by many), it doesn't matter what's between your legs, most people feel disrespected by a person that doesn't dress for the occasion - they put in the effort to fit in so why shouldn't you? If I want to dress ****ty, and I frequently do, then the best place to do so is in a club where others are doing the same. And, if someone thinks that presence in a gay bar will have no impact, let's just remember that T is the 4th letter in LGBT and within the subcategories of the T, us crossdressers are the least understood/accepted.

[Tracy Irving]

I wanted to comment yesterday but had to work all day and 1/2 the night. Other people feel similar to what I have written below so I will just use this to reinforce the point. I had planned on getting upset with this comment:


The normals must see more then a MIAD. And, IMHO (no offense meant), whiskered faces should not venture out in feminine dress.

A few choice words were erased more than once. I will take the high ground and refuse to be insulted by ignorance when it comes to who isn't allowed to be themselves, be happy. Instead, I will repost some of the comments I made after I returned from a six month "break" and add a few new ones below it...

It is hard to determine the number of people who feel this way but I must take issue with their views regarding crossdressing. They feel that "looking like a man wearing a dress is degrading and insulting to crossdressers and hurts our cause to be accepted by the public. Help us by not doing it." I will not out the author, but the content is one of the reasons I stopped participating.

I don't know what makes you better than me. I don't know what makes your cause more important than mine. I never thought you were hurting my cause. Hell, I never knew I had a "cause". But, since you forced me to have one, my cause is to look like a man wearing a dress and be accepted by the public. When you pretend to be the opposite sex, I do not consider it degrading and insulting to me, a crossdresser, and I would never ask you to not do it. For some people here, the all inclusive crossdressing umbrella is very small.

This is pretty simple, a man wearing women's clothing is a crossdresser. Pretend I want to blend in while shopping at the mall. I put on a pair of women's shorts and t-shirt, full makeup and even a wig. I am blending in but could have looked almost the same in men's shorts and t-shirt, full makeup and a wig. That means crossdressing in public is all about wearing makeup and wigs? That makes no sense.

I guarantee I can blend in with the public better as a guy in women's clothing than a guy in women's clothing, makeup and a wig. I just won't be what you want me to be. But, I will be happy.

If you wake up in the morning...
and spend the time getting as womanly looking as you possibly can. You presentation is flawless. You can now go about your day pretending you are a woman and nobody notices. The public sees one less crossdresser. That hurts your cause.

If you wake up in the morning...
and put on nothing feminine, no wig, hip pads and breast forms, bra, heels, perfume etc... You let everyone see your manliest of manly clothing, short gray hair and receeding hairline. The one difference? You get all dolled up in the makeup department before you head out the door for John Q. Public to see you. Are you crossderessing? Are you cross makeup(ing)? And if you are, how do you switch back to guy makeup? I know how to switch back to guy clothing.

I understand I am not making any friends with these views. I am alienating an entire segment that has an inner woman yearning to wear wigs and makeup to be free. But, this site is crossdressers.com and I am a crossdresser. This fact can not be denied or taken away from me.

[Pixiesmate]

I have to agree with Moose - I am not trying to appear as a woman. I am a Man In A Skirt. I wear hose and heels because wingtips look really bad with an A-line skirt. I do have to agree that we (all of us, with all the variations there-in) need to look like we care about how we look. I have taken great strength from the folks on this site, and have for the last couple of years been out and about wearing clothing that is usually sold to the female gender. It has been common in my experience that people are surprised initially but the more I come into their stores and shops it becomes a commonplace thing. All of us, just being out and about living our lives our way, will help bring the acceptance that we all want.

[mechamoose]

Well, people make assumptions based on those first few seconds of an encounter. If one looks too far outside of what is 'expected', then it will set people off.. even if they are not doing it on purpose.

If I'm going to a social gathering where I know that the audience is receptive.. like an LGBT function, club or a CD event.. I will go all out, sparkly heels and all. If I'm going to the market, that answer is different. Different again if I'm going to meet a client.

The LGBT asylee group I work with had only seen me in business attire prior to Pride here. (Time constraints leaving work) Some of the folks didn't even recognize me at first! (See my profile pic.. click through) They seemed to treat me with more.. i dunno, respect(?) at our next group meeting. The asylees were much more friendly even though I have been doing stuff with them for months.

Clothing is a language. We all have involuntary reactions to someone in a uniform, bare feet and overalls, or a prom dress. The relative risks of our clothing selection can and should drive some of our choices, if for safety if nothing else.

- MM

[Stephanie47]

Maybe the action needed to have change is to actively write your politicians. Washington State law is very specific as to protection offered to the entire scope of transgender men and women, as well as gays and lesbians. Those laws are often enhanced by local laws in the cities and counties. The laws are also enhanced with "hate crime" status. I have seen way to many politicians show their true colors on this issues and they are not the colors of the LGBT flag. Write your congressperson or state legislators demanding equality. March in the local pride parades. Confront ignorance.

That being said, I personally feel there is some degree of decorum needed if you are going to present in public. My granddaughter is 17 and a very attractive young woman. She is stylish. She is tasteful. What she wears another young woman in her peer group should not wear. And, definitely her 70 years old grandfather should never wear. Nor her grandmother. I just ask, what kind of image are you going to project to the public. If the general public views a woman in a negative light, what do you think the public is going to say about a man wearing the same outfit with no refinement to social skills. I see many cross dressers in the pictorial section who look marvelous. Of course, for the most part they are still pictures. When I drift over to Youtube with self posted videos there are too many "tarts" parading around the roadways with cars whizzing by. To me it indicates there is a negative image of women. Do you really think a woman is going to dress in six inch heels with a dress that hardly covers the cheeks of her butt and parade along the roadway?

If you want to emulate a woman, then think about what woman you want to emulate. And, consider the time and place. Club wear may not be appropriate for early morning mass unless you are asking for forgiveness for what you may have done several hours before.

Bearded shaggy hairy looking men in women's clothing should consider whether going into the bathroom at a Target in North Carolina is a way to generate acceptance among the general population for transgender men and women.

[Teresa]

I can honestly always see a rift between Cders going out dressed in a convincing way and MIADS.

At the end of the day I just accept MIAD is not for me , the point I resent Tracy making is suggesting it's a pretence , I'm like many who don't honestly know where we are exactly on the TS road, no one will ever say to a TS going out dressed as a woman she is pretending . I've said all this before but it's irrelevant .

[Jenny22]

My earlier comments has raised some hackles. I don't mind. Even Tracy Irving's comment that she was insulted by (my) ignorance is acceptable to me. Her points are certainly valid. I won't try to defend my remarks. Opposing thoughts are how we learn, and I appreciate same.

Allie SF makes a point that I would like to echo to those who would like to go out .. Do so with a friend, a seasoned forum sister, if possible. I had a great one, a mentor sister who convinced me that I could be out, presenting fully a a woman, and enjoy it. I did, but ONLY because I was not by myself. Except for drive thrus, that hasn't happened, yet. But it will, in good time.

[Tracy Irving]

Teresa, with all due respect, some of us aren't on the transsexual road at all. Some of us aren't even running parallel to it. And still others have no plans to cross it.

There is a reason I don't post in the transsexual section or even read the threads. At the end of the day I just accept that transsexual isn't for me.

I follow your threads with great interest and do wish you the best of luck and great happiness on your journey.

[barbara gordon]

I think getting out and being visible does go a long way to help with acceptance , and understanding from the bigger populations of "non -crossdressers/ and non -trans" people . Crossdressing can be very mis understood by people who don't do this . If we get out there and do "normal" things like errands, people will start see this as a non threat.

There is this powerful drive in so many of us to make this "Transformation" in crossdressing by wearing the clothes and accessories that are "usually" "normal" for people of the opposite sex(or opposite gender) .

The original poster mentions comic-con. How about we take a look at that . Cosplay is becoming increasingly popular and readily acceptable as a form of expression .
you can become any superhero you want . You can really be that character for a length of time , and you can change back just as easily. Its so much like crossdressing.



interesting

[Pat]

I think that the one step that is even more important than getting out and convincing the general public that we're OK is for us to convince ourselves that each and every one of us is OK. MIADs are OK. Fetish dressers are OK. Stealth TS are OK. We are all part of one tiny, tiny population segment with a huge range of expression and every one of us is OK. The lesson we need to promulgate to the general public is that ALL transgender people are OK. Not just the pretty ones.

So please, be polite to each other in this thread and in real life. (And I kinda have to remind you that making fun or being disrespectful to any other person's presentation is against forum rules. Personal issues between individuals should be handled by private message. And even then site rules apply. Don't make me pull this car over. ;) )

[AllieSF]

You say it so well here Pat. Thanks.

"I think that the one step that is even more important than getting out and convincing the general public that we're OK is for us to convince ourselves that each and every one of us is OK. MIADs are OK. Fetish dressers are OK. Stealth TS are OK. We are all part of one tiny, tiny population segment with a huge range of expression and every one of us is OK. The lesson we need to promulgate to the general public is that ALL transgender people are OK. Not just the pretty ones."

[Bobbi46]

Allie Sf and Pat both of you are absolutely right in what you say
.
I have asked for my thread to be deleted. In retrospect I feel I was being insensitive and what I did say was not in hindsight what I should have said.
So if I have offended any of you I am sorry and it should not have happened.

[sarah_hillcrest]

I think that the one step that is even more important than getting out and convincing the general public that we're OK is for us to convince ourselves that each and every one of us is OK. MIADs are OK. Fetish dressers are OK. Stealth TS are OK. We are all part of one tiny, tiny population segment with a huge range of expression and every one of us is OK. The lesson we need to promulgate to the general public is that ALL transgender people are OK. Not just the pretty ones.

just asking if you think fetish dressing of whatever type is OK in public? To me that's not really a transgender issue just a public decency issue regardless of the person's gender.

[jack-ie]

I'm not disagreeing Sarah but the "decency issue" creates it's own problem. Who gets to define what's decent?

[Tracii G]

What is decent in public falls under the laws of that city government and what is written in those laws.
A half naked guy in a diaper I would rather not eat dinner next to.
Just because you can fetish dress in a diaper maybe it isn't always the right thing to do.
Decency and respectability makes your chances better of a successful outing.
I don't want to shock people and force myself on them that is just not respectful.
It would be like me getting a table at a fancy eatery and announcing Hey y'all I'm queer and I'm here and there is nothing you can do about it so suffer bitches.
People don't like having stuff shoved in their face when they are trying to relax and just live their life.
I'm the same way.
You want to dress like a dime store cowboy or a 50 cent hooker is your business but please show some decency to the people around you or stay home and feed your fetish.

[sarah_hillcrest]

I'm not disagreeing Sarah but the "decency issue" creates it's own problem. Who gets to define what's decent?

Yeah I totally get that, and I can see how the argument can be used against cross dressing. It's a slippery for sure. I think Tracii is pretty much right on. Here's my case. Popular opinion defines what's decent. For cross dressing to become decent in the eyes of the populace it must be separated from fetish behavior in the eyes of the populace and be seen as normal.

[jack-ie]

I agree with you both. My point was that different groups draw the line in different places. Sometimes far apart.

[Tracii G]

Jack-ie what matters is the law and what it says.
You me or the fence post what we think doesn't matter its the law that does in this case.

[Lacey New]

I am one of those closeted crossdressers and I think there are a lot of subtle ways that we can make our presence known without throwing the closet door open and announcing to the world - and most importantly family and friends - that we are crossdressers. One way is when we purchase our female equipment, whatever that may be - is not to deny that it is for us. From my experience, most places do not care. I remain anonymous by paying in cash and I go out of my way to be polite to the SA helping me. Another way is to review what you buy online and identify as a male purchaser. But a polite, well written review of a pretty dress or of service in a store can be read by many, male and female and most important by the corporate marketing folks who can see we are spending good money. Finally, again through e-mail, contact the store or brand headquarters with a nice comment. All, in all, show that we are a polite, well mannered and definitely not creepy group. Face it, has anyone ever heard of people threatened by gangs of motorcycle riding crossdressers? We are about as harmless a group as you can find.

[Pat]

just asking if you think fetish dressing of whatever type is OK in public? To me that's not really a transgender issue just a public decency issue regardless of the person's gender.

I think the choice is theirs, not mine. If fetish dressers make the decision to go out to an inappropriate venue I'll roll my eyes with the rest of the public, but I just mark it down to "it takes all kinds." I don't see it as an assault on the transgender community because of course we'll have people who are over-the-top -- we're human beings. If that person is going to get hooted down, let them be hooted down for bad taste or poor judgement, not for the fact they're transgender. There are fetish men and fetish women who also appear in public and draw the same snarky reactions. I don't think we want to be better than everyone else, we just want to be the same.

I don't believe the "damage" they cause in the public's mind is greater than the damage we ourselves cause when we in-fight. If the transgender community plays its cards right, what should go mumbling through the crowd is "None of the transgender folks *I* know dress like that."

[Tracii G]

You may mark it down to "it takes all kinds" but the general public has a tendency to lump us all in one category.
Pat I was in a situation where I was eating dinner in a fairly nice dinner spot enfemme with a GG friend.
We were chatting away having a great time bothering no one around us that I could tell and in walk 3 guys dressed like they just came from a rocky horror show viewing.
Ultra fetishy and quite frankly disgustingly over the top.
The hostess freaked a bit and ended up seating them 2 tables away from my GG and I.
Let me tell you the other patrons around us were disgusted and my friend and I got lumped in with the rocky horror crowd.
We had nothing to do with them yet our dinner was ruined because of these 3 fetishy nasty SOBs.
My friend and I apologized to the folks around us and said that we had nothing to do with them and one lady said all of you are nasty perverted people.
One table of 8 people on the other side got up and left. We left as well after getting a few to go containers for our food.
These 3 fetishy dressers ruined dinner for quite a few people and drove business away from the establishment as well.
I can tell you being shunned and called disgusting,perverted and nasty in a public place is the most horrible feeling I have ever experienced in my life.
Thats why I have an aversion to the 2 dollar hooker fetish look.

So my point is when someone makes a statement like "it shouldn't matter how the trans person is dressed" I get that but the fact is we "DO" get lumped into that crowd weather we like it or not.

[Rogina B]

As an "out" transwoman,I am who I am every day in the mainstream. My name is mine,no hiding or deception. When I am sitting with my banker,I am doing just that..me being myself. I take positive steps toward awareness from those around me. I do not believe that anyone operating in "stealth" mode really does anything toward Trans awareness. I don't want to be painted with the same broad brush as Tracii's story described.

[Tracii G]

Rogina talk about feeling like total hell after that encounter and my GG friend got called a DQ by one of the lady diners that assumed she was a CD as well, how horrible is that?
I had to console my friend for hours over it she was devastated that another woman would think she was a man in womens clothes.
I can't imagine the hurt she suffered because of those 3 ass clowns.
My old self would have ripped those 3 apart right there on the spot and she knew that so it was her idea to leave.
We still speak but will never go out shopping with me again because of that night.
If those 3 fetishy dressers had been dressed more like average real woman none of this would have happened so chew on that.
So your actions as a trans person, CD whatever you call yourself depend a lot on how you present yourself in public.
You might have some ideological stance that how you dress shouldn't matter because you want to be all inclusive or liberal but that is not based in reality because it sure as hell matters how you present.

[Rogina B]

You might have some ideological stance that how you dress shouldn't matter because you want to be all inclusive or liberal but that is not based in reality because it sure as hell matters how you present.

I agree ! And,they aren't using their "real name" to go with the image and behavior..

[NicoleScott]

Well, I wouldn't want to upset the community, so if you don't like the two dollar hooker look, tell me what dollar amount hooker look would be acceptable for going out?

[Dana44]

Nicole that was a good one. I don't think we look like a hundred hooker when we are out. I do try to pass and may have a nice skirt on.. Yep we wear skirts out and I go about four inches above the knee. Hope that isn't a hooker look. LOL

[terza]

it wouldn't be the first time i see a cd/transgender scapegoating a faction. i'm positive they, and myself, are not your enemy. but i hope you would see the irony in doing so.

women are resilient, especially the secure ones. genetic women doesn't mean genetically stunning. some women are quite homely, and gets mistaken, or maliciously bullied. would a fat person blame his/her companion(s) for being obese when they get ridicule for being fat?

awareness is nice, but the bigger scope is Live, and let live --and not just for the LGBT.

[Tracii G]

Nice how everybody else can have and voice their opinion but me.
I'm the one that is always wrong when I speak my mind so I can take a hint.
Y'all can flap your gums from your closet I 'll still be out in the real world living my life.

[BLUE ORCHID]

. They told me that crossdressing in quiet places (empty car parks, night time on the street) brings the impression of someone who is awkward and creepy.

Hi Irenetan :hugs:, Not only that but it is downright DANGEROUS ! >Orchid...:daydreaming:...

[Pat]

Nice how everybody else can have and voice their opinion but me.
I'm the one that is always wrong when I speak my mind so I can take a hint.

Tracii, I'm truly sorry you're feeling picked on. I see that not everyone agreed with you, but I didn't see anyone telling you not to express your opinion. Discussion threads are like that -- you don't agree with me and I'll discuss it with you, but I don't take it personally.

In the case of the story you related about the "3 fetishy dressers" I actually see a different dynamic playing out. In your story, 3 fetish CDs walk into a restaurant and are seated and served (not ejected or arrested.) The other patrons realize that their recourse is to complain and/or leave (instead of commit battery.) You yourself say "My old self would have ripped those 3 apart right there on the spot..." All of which says to me that there is social progress happening. You know that if that happened 20 or 30 years ago, there would have been blood involved in the story. My uncle, the vice cop, used to take great pride in telling me (in the late 50's / early 60's) the horrible things they did to people who these days are called LGBT. They would leave someone bleeding in an alley with the message that if they wanted to come to the station and swear out a complaint, they'd get more of the same. I don't see that anywhere in your story.

Now at the same time you encountered a hostile person: "...one lady said all of you are nasty perverted people." She didn't develop that opinion on the spot -- she walked in with that mindset and she left with it. It wasn't the existence of the fetish dressers that caused it to happen and nothing you or your friend could have done in that time would change it even if the fetish dressers hadn't walked in.

Personally, I'll take a world with a few cranky people in it as long as that world lets everyone eat in the restaurants, go to the movies, walk down the street, etc. Because there will never be a world without cranky people. But up until recently, there hadn't been a world where those 3 could be out and you could be out and I can be out and the people who are closeted can eventually come out and join us. The story you told is a story of our tiny minority community winning. (To me.) Don't feel picked on -- we're just talking here.

[Janine cd]

I would think that dressing up in appropriate feminine attire and going about one's daily business should send a clear message to all that we are normal human beings.

[Tracii G]

OK Pat no matter what I say you are stuck in your ideology.
The mean lady that went off on me and my GG friend may have walked in with that mindset but she was fine before the 3 ass clowns came in.
She was tolerating me I suppose because I was dressed nicely and being respectful. She even said she liked my purse when my friend and I were seated.
My friend and I suffered humiliation BECAUSE of the **** pack that came in plain and simple and you can't deny that and throw some sugar on it and call them getting seated a win????
Honestly I have no words to describe how crazy that sounds. My friend and I have to leave yet the ones that cause the issue and set the lady off on a meltdown are given a win for the trans community????? OMG
This twisted logic makes my head hurt.
Poke me with a fork I'm done.

[Bobbi46]

Tracii.
truly I am sorry for what happened to you but things like this will happen again (not necessarily to you) somewhere else it is a fact of life that there will always be a minority pushing the boundaries as far as they can without getting stopped. This I think was what happened that night. Whilst I'm not condoning what they did because it was wrong but these things happen from time to time.
What can we do about it? on the one hand very little but by going about our normal business dressed, as we feel we can only promote our community by the way we and you dress and to show people we are normal people leading normal lives but dressing in our own way.
It's sad fact of life there will always be people hell bent on ruining other peoples daily lives or special occasions. We just have to get on with life and forget oabout them as best we can

[Pat]

OK Pat no matter what I say you are stuck in your ideology.

Sure, I have no problem with that. You and I have disagreed before and we will again. It's OK for that to happen. You're focusing on the personal impact to you, I'm focusing on the societal impact -- there's room for us both. There will always be fetish dressers. Even if the current population of fetish dressers all decide they'd rather be blendy there will be new fetish dressers that come along behind them. And it's sad they spoiled your dining experience and made some woman get frothy and include you in her rant. But I'm hoping it happens more and more until people just look up and think, "Oh. Them again." and go back to their meals. Because this scenario has played out before -- for blacks, for gays, for people with visible medical problems, people in culturally-different clothing -- and now, hopefully, us. Transgender people. All transgender people, not just the pretty ones, not just the conformant ones, but all six-tenths-of-one-percent-of-the-general-population of us. But it's just my opinion. I have no illusions that I'm going to convert you, I'm looking to get my words out there where they may resonate with others who don't have a stand yet. If you keep putting the ball on the tee...

[Mirya]

I cannot believe that the treatment of fetish dressers is being compared to the marginalization of blacks and gays. It's not even close to the same thing.

[Tracii G]

Its more of a common decency issue to me in a public eating place.
Bare ass cheeks in assless chaps is not proper attire for dining I'm sorry its just not its disgusting.
If they want to dress that way at a club oK I'm fine with that because its appropriate there.
Heck I'm gay but at least I have standards of decency when I am out in public.
The liberal will always argue the black /gay issue thinking it makes them feel they are on the moral high ground.
To defend the bad judgment of these 3 guys I just don't know what to say.
I don't care if they are trans,gay or a Village People tribute band it makes no difference they should have more sense and decency than to come into a place to eat dressed that way.

[jennifer0918]

Be nice

All we need is love.

When Iam out en femme I try to act as a lady, dress appropriately,blend in the best way possible. Be honest to myself at least(I'm closeted ) iam not a girl so this means when people ask "are you a drag queen?"no but iam a crossdresser I was born this way. I think if we educate our peers we can achieve a lot more,instead of being in your face rocky horror clowns,good point Tracii I agree with you girl I see your point. Keep speaking your mind you have tremendous courage,at least more then me,but iam learning.

[Tracii G]

There could have been a showing of the movie downtown and yes I have seen them on occasion and I am fine with it, its a cult classic so I get it.
I wonder how Pat would be perceived if she wore a baby doll nighty to a Ruth's Chris steak house? Get seated I doubt it?
Why because she is trans? No because its not proper attire for a dinning establishment and they have standards.
Dressing properly is important.
I did contact the corporate office of this establishment and they said they will look into it.
They did say trans people are more than welcome and that they have trans employees in their company so trans is not an issue.
The lady said the hostess most likely didn't know how to handle the situation and they will speak to her on the matter.
I asked she not be fired just educated on the proper way to handle a situation like this.
The lady at corporate agreed she would not be terminated.
They offered a $100 dollar gift card to me for my troubles and I declined.

[Pat]

Its more of a common decency issue to me in a public eating place.

Really? Because that's not how you presented it at first. You presented it as outrage because you were sitting in a restaurant and "in walk 3 guys dressed like they just came from a rocky horror show viewing." Because your way of being transgender is OK but their way of being transgender is not. And each retelling, you ratchet the story up a little more until now it's indecent public exposure -- and you declare "I don't care if they are trans,gay or a Village People tribute band..." Sure, sign me up for objecting to indecent public exposure by any person -- that's wrong no matter who does it. So why bring it up in a discussion of accepting other kinds of transgender person than yourself? And now you've slipped off into a private world where you imagine me in a baby doll nighty visiting a steak house? :eek: Get a grip.



I cannot believe that the treatment of fetish dressers is being compared to the marginalization of blacks and gays. It's not even close to the same thing.

They're very much alike when discussing people being tolerated in a public venue. In each case those folks started out causing a stir -- a flush of outrage by people who appointed themselves defenders of social normalcy -- and over time they achieved acceptance and became commonplace because they persisted. As I'm hoping the trans community will. And in each case there was a push to settle for "good enough" -- maybe light-skinned blacks could be in our restaurants but not the really dark ones. Maybe the "striaght-acting gays" were tolerable but not the flamboyant. And, fortunately, in each case that didn't work. Normalcy had to be extended to encompass all members of the class, not just some. Today we're pitching the idea that "passable" or "blendy" trans folks are OK but maybe not the fetishers, maybe not the MIADs -- but that's not good enough. There needs to be a place carved out where not just the pretty can walk around -- I don't want to name names other than my own but we have many members of this forum who are not going to meet the standard of prettiness.

[Tracii G]

Oh my it really is hard to believe you actually think that way.
I guess it takes all kinds.

[Julie Slowinski]

I'm kinda torn on this one, but I'm gonna have to go with Tracii here. If the goal is to show that we are normal people, then we should act like normal people and dress appropriately for the occasion. I think public opinion on gay marriage benefited greatly from Modern Family and their portrayal of a gay couple being very normal. No need to be rubbing all aspects of a community into the faces of the general public. Of course, everyone is free to do what they wish (it would be hypocritical to be on this site and say otherwise), but I agree with Tracii that it is not likely to benefit 'the cause'

[sarah_hillcrest]

I think we're really all mostly in agreement here, things just get kind of blurry in the grey areas.

My biggest concern is when people try to drag "civilians" into their kink without consent. The example I gave of the old man wearing little girls clothes that were 4 sizes to small went to the Barnes and Nobles with one idea on his mind, humiliation and forcing all of us innocent bystanders to be involved in his humiliation. Had the clothes been the exact same but close to his actual size and had he naturally walked in and went about shopping I doubt it would have turned to many heads.

I was thinking about when a woman dresses all sexy and goes out she's expressing her sexuality and no one really cares because its in the norm its what we expect. Is it that much different? I've definitely seen women showing more skin then my example and it was perfectly fine.

Ultimately I don't think it matters, people are going to do what people are going to do regardless of what we think. I wouldn't advocate for laws that violate a persons freedom of speech, as it would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.

It's really up to the proprietor of the establishment I guess, if they feel that a patron is not dressed appropriately they should be asked to leave.

[Tracii G]

Ii would love to respond Sarah but whatever I say will be ridiculed.

[IleneD]

I am more and more on the "tone it down" bandwagon myself.
18 months ago when I first began to seriously and fully dress up [beyond old under dressing habits, etc.], I went for the flashy and sexy look to first express my inner woman.
Now I find my "look" is much more casual and suited for going about in public as "normal" as possible; trying to wear something a GG might REALLY wear out shopping or for lunch (and not a cocktail dress). Tried casual skirts and t-shirt tops (scoop necks, etc). Gone with leggings and tunics. Pants and skinny jeans.
I've been wearing as little makeup as possible out in public. Usually only lipstick (and a neutral pink at that), or lipstick and brows.
In keeping with my minimalist theme, I made a long 4 hr car trip last week dressed; knee length khaki skirt, top, bra/panties, wig. sandals. Lipstick. No hip forms or stockings, etc. It was so comfortable, BTW
Finding that at times, less (or casual) is more. Observe the GG's.

[Jean 103]

I'm out and live as Jean a transgender person. I've been accepted and I'm treated as one of the girls. My friend's are regular every day people, not transgender.

I pretty much agree with Pat.

Tracii, I don't want to get into all this, but this is my problem with Halloween. This is not a one time thing for me, this is my life. I don't need fashion police, I have my friends for that.

[Tracii G]

I am out as well Jean I don't hide that I am a TG person
Dressing is not a hobby or a fetish for me.
I don't see the draw of Halloween either.

[Bobbi46]

Tracii,
Come and live in my hamlet (11 people) some of them do not even know what is Halloween and the rest are to old to bother! But at the end of the day I am totally accepted as a crossdresser/transgender person.

[Tracii G]

Pretty awesome Bobbi .
My neighbors all know and we get along fine and thats good with me.

[Bobbi46]

Tracii
Also my local mayor, his deputy and the rest of the town council all know including the town secretary and loads more plus all my ex pat friends of who I have lost none as a result.
I am me and they all know it. I think I am the first cd/trans in living history to live here! A cultural shock for them? not at all.

[Pat]

Oh my it really is hard to believe you actually think that way.
I guess it takes all kinds.

My point exactly. ;)

[irenetancd]

282863

Thank you for al the replies.
I have been going out en femme for many years. Initially, my style was overly sexy for any girls who you come across in public (shopping mall). I still love mini skirt, but had come to dressed more decent to blend in with the crowd.

One thing I recently noticed is that wearing a skater dress is so much more comfortable. There is no need to tuck at all.

[Tracii G]

Irene makes a good point TG, CD,TS alike seem to go thru a "puberty" of sorts when it comes to how they dress.
How many new CDers do we see here start off with the all pink very pre teen and teen girly stuff to move on to the overly sexual look only to end up at a more everyday look of women you see most of the time.
I know there may be some that want to argue my observation but it is something I have noticed for many years.

[Teresa]

Tracii,
I guess the bottom line is there's a right time and a right place , the three you referred to didn't get it right. If they had walked in and made it clear they were dressed for a fund raising event or something similar and politely asked the management if they minded them having a meal dressed as they were maybe it wouldn't have been a problem.

It is a very difficult choice, for hotels and caterers , to me they made the wrong call and lost more business. I guess if they were three guys in drab and worse for wear on drink they would have been as disruptive to the the other customers , sadly they appeared to be oblivious to you and your friend, and deeply upset her, I hope she eventually gets over it .

The only time I've had any kind of reaction was when I was having breakfast in a hotel dressed and an old lady stopped in front of me propped herself on her walking stick , looked me up and down , said nothing and walked away . I felt I was dressed decently enough not to cause a bad reaction .

[Tracii G]

The choice was up to the restaurant so not much I could do about it.
You think I would have learned to keep my mouth shut around here because its obvious I am part of a very small minority.

[Kayliedaskope]

But that minority is exactly why we love having you around here. You're not afraid to speak your mind, even if you know it will piss people off. You keeps it real!

[Tracii G]

Kaylie stick around here long enough and see how you get treated when you voice a strong opinion on a subject you are passionate about.

[Kayliedaskope]

Been there, done that on other forums under other names. I've been the black sheep many a time already. A lot of people don't like me because I'll call it as I see it, and don't sugarcoat anything just to save someone else's feelings. On the other hand, I also get a whole LOT of people respecting me for not backing down, either.

"If the truth hurts, too bad - it's still the truth."

[Pat]

A lot of people don't like me because I'll call it as I see it, and don't sugarcoat anything just to save someone else's feelings.

By all means call things as you see them, but on this forum we do insist on politeness and respect. You agreed to those rules when you signed up, as did everyone else. We also strongly prefer you stick to the topic of the OP, so if you have some transgender awareness thoughts, play on.

[Kayliedaskope]

Sorry, Pat, that came out a little harsher than I first thought when writing it.

[Teresa]

Tracii,
That was the point I was making , the restaurant made the mistake and paid the price . Under different circumstances we have all been in restaurants where some people don't know how to behave , I'm not sure if my wife would be very accepting if she was sitting near to a CDer, apart from me of course !

[Tracii G]

I agree Teresa but I didn't cause the problem I just had to pay the price.

[Bobbi46]

Tracii,
That's whole sorry point of all this, you were the one to suffer and the staff did nothing! those deviants should have been shown the door, legal action by them later? no way they were dressed inappropriately for such a place it was a great pity that you were left to shoulder all the unpleasantness of it all.

[Jean 103]

Last Wednesday I was talking with my very close friend Minster K. He is the resterant manager at a casino. I didn't bring up customer's that are not properly dress because they would not let those three in the casino's front door in the first place. I have never visited with him at work. We were talking about Halloween, he showed me a picture of this mask his sister made for his costume this year. Every year he wears a costume to work. I'm thinking of going there this year and asked him if it would be ok for me to stop and say hi. I have told him before that I use to go there a lot when I first started going out in public. He told me that it would be ok and that he has seen a few of us there. Some have met him and call him out to say hi. He is such a kind sole, this dose not bother him at all. He is one of the few gay friends I have, he is out and everyone at his work knows. One of his wait staff comes up to him and says " there's one of those people out there. " Minster K says "no, don't even go there. " I told him to tell his wait staff all they want is to be treated like anyone else , do it with a smile and they will get a good tip.

[Teresa]

Jean,
Isn't there a saying that a smile is worth a thousand words ? I wish more people tried it !

[5150 Girl]

To further the point that exposure breeds understanding/acceptance, I share this story with my childhood. I was nearly 5 before I saw my first black person in real life. I was scared, and full of questions. When I entered elementary school,I began to become exposed more and more to different races. I wasn't long until I started to have a more diverse circle of friends. Exposure to different ethnicitys desensitized that young child to the outward appearances of others different from myself.
To further the point of desensitivity though exposure, I could point to my time with the media. I covered a lot of bad car wrecks in my day. My first real bad one one I was like, Oooo,,, ok, that's a little rough. But after a while blood and guts became just another day at the office.
Hollywood has to constantly up their game as audiences become more savvy and spot ticks. Making Superman fly in the 50's with wires hardly anyone noticed back then... Today we'd spot that in a heart beat. When CGI first came out, audiences were amazed! Today's audience is board by early CGI... It looks like a bad video game.

However, as another poster mentioned, exposure on it's own isn't enough.... We must also make that exposure a positive one! I am transgender. I work as my true self at a mall kiosk. I do my best to not only be a positive ambassador for the company I work for, but also for the trans community as well. I go out of my way to be clean ad polished, polite, smile/be friendly, knowledgeable, and reasonably funny. Imagine the negative image people would have if I sat there at kiosk lipstick smeared all over my face like I'd been making out with someone like a drunken prom date, clothes disheveled, flip'n people "the bird" while drinking from a bottle in a paper bag...
So with positive exposure, Trans and CD people will eventually become "matter of fact" instead of "wow, look at that!"