Acceptance or Toleration?

[Vicky_Scot]

Sorry but this might upset a few or put the cat amongst the pigeons...etc etc.

Personally being a cross dresser from the UK I truly feel that the best we can ever hope for is being tolerated,but as far as being accepted, not a chance.

Please do not think I am bitter or have a axe to grind because that is not the case, I just think people who think we will be or are accepted are a bit hopeful.

[Sarasometimes]

I think it depends on where you live and who you associate with and what your definitions are of those two words. If you are saying accepted or tolerated everywhere, then I agree. But if you are saying that we can be accepted in certain areas, I believe we can achieve that but unlikely in my lifetime, I'm old.

[Fiona123]

Sara is right. It depends and where you are and who you are with. At my therapist I am completely accepted and supported by her and her staff. Other places I would not dare go. If tolerance is the best we get some places I'm okay with that.

[Karen RHT]

Hmm, based on what I've read in these forums over the years, there are people out there who definitely accept. Having said that, I also suspect that tolerance is more common than acceptance.


Karen

[Stephanie47]

I think it is fairly evident what the answer may be if you look around. I've stated it numerous times that legal protection does not confer acceptance. I just looked at some polling data on the Internet. The polling numbers are for transgender men and women, and, not cross dressers. A hefty minority (21%) believe transgender is a mental illness. A greater minority (39%) believe it is a choice to be a transgender man or woman. A 27% are not open to having a transgender man or woman as a friend. I think most people have accepted the premise that a biological man or woman may have been born in the wrong body. How does a cross dresser present his case for his desire to emulate a woman? Can anyone point a finger to the answer when a cross dresser cannot answer the question for himself? Pointing out to someone how wearing women's clothing makes one feel does not answer the "why" question. Just show up next summer at the neighborhood BBQ is a dress, hosiery and heels, makeup and wig and see how many people slowly drift away from your friendship.

I have all the legal protections in Washington State to dress as I want to express myself, and, to do me harm based on my sexual identity is a hate crime. I think one has to be ready to lose friendships, and, hopefully find new friendships among like minded individuals.

[Jaylyn]

I also think it's totally the area you are living in wether its tolerance or acceptance.
By the way Vicky I love the little saying you have under your name. Much to be said there in being tolerated and accepted.

[Jean 103]

I am one of those that have found acceptance. I would like to think anyone can have what I have, and maybe you can. This is not some hobby, this is my life. I interact with people every day. I'm out , this is a big thing. I don't have the fears and problems that those that live in the closet do. I don't hide , like last night, karaoke with my friends. Basically I have achieved what I have by putting myself out there, taking risks, learning from my mistakes, and a little luck.

[Majella St Gerard]

I agree with Jean, you won't find acceptance hiding in your home and being ashamed of who you are. Get out in the real world and be yourself. If you don't accept yourself how do you expect others to.

P.S.
I can barely tolerate most other humams.

[audreyinalbany]

it doesn't seem like such a dilemma to me. I don't know how you can tell the difference. If by acceptance you mean people are going to come up to you and say, "It's SO great you're a crossdresser. I wish my husband would present like a woman. That'd be AMAZING !!!" then you're right...probably not gonna happen. If you mean by acceptance that they're going to not make a big deal about you dressing like a woman and wearing a wig and forms the that sounds to me kinda like tolerating your dressing. I belong to a women's group at one of the local churches and they welcome me to their meetings, so I guess you could say they 'accept' me...but I guess they also 'tolerate' me as I'm a guy at a meeting meant for women.

[Sarah Doepner]

This reminds me of the Circles of Association or some such model of relationships. It looks like a bulls eye target with you in the middle. Each ring gets bigger and hold more and more people.

1) The Acceptance circle is small and comes with knowing someone, possibly you. You are accepted and can dress or not because it's you they like.
2) The next circle may be tolerance and that contains people who know enough about the LGBTQ+ world that you are not a threat and it's live and let live for them.
3) The next circle out is probably going to be intolerance, those people who think anything they didn't grow up with or learn about in church is wrong. Some will hate you for even existing and others will put on a happy face and pass laws against your best interests.
4) The last circle is ignorance. They don't know, they don't care and if they learn a little they either forget it quickly or move to one of the other circles, but since there are so many of them, there isn't much movement.

There may be more variations on the model and you can add as much definition to each circle as you want, but it's pretty straight forward.

[Leslie Langford]

You know, Vicky, we hear a lot about "white privilege" these days, and among the politically correct, this seems to have become the new "original sin" that those of us born with that particular skin pigmentation now have to be cognizant of and make amends for.

I would submit that a similar "hetero-normative" privilege exists in the world today, and one which generally has little interest in advancing the cause of sexual and/or gender divergent minorities such as us as this is simply not their issue. Historically, those people enjoying that "privilege" have had to be pushed and prodded (sometimes violently) to recognize that those particular minorities also have a right to co-exist alongside them and enjoy the same rights and benefits that they do. Even now, these hard-won rights are being rolled back in many parts of the world by reactionary forces who are feeling their power and positions of privilege being threatened. The same holds true on the sexual equality front as impacts otherwise "normal" heterosexual women as well, and who are seeking to advance women's' causes wherever the patriarchy still dominates.

Don't expect an easy ride on the road to generalized tolerance (or even acceptance) of gender-variant people such as ourselves. Existing societal attitudes and norms are too deeply entrenched. Progress will come - it's already happening - but the road is long and hard and will have its fair share of twists and turn along the way. We may not even see the full extent of it within our own lifetimes.

Visible minorities have in recent years begun to rail more vocally and vigorously against those of us unknowingly enjoying "white privilege", forcing us to hold up a mirror to allow us to see ourselves through the eyes of others - and sometimes it is not a pretty reflection that we see looking back at us. We sexual and gender variant folks need to take a page out of that same playbook and continue to use similar tactics of guilt and shame to push back against those who would try to continue imposing their "hetero-normative" standards on us in an attempt to keep us dis-enfranchised.

We have every right -nay, a duty - to keep up the pressure to realize the day when we are simply seen as a normal and equally-valued part of society.

[Micki_Finn]

There was a time when homosexuality was definitely neither accepted nor tolerated virtually anywhere, but we’ve made strides and today, by and large, it is accepted. Within the lifetimes of many of the members here we had segregation here in the US. Times change and people change.

[XemmaX]

I guess only the future will be able to answer this but you can have a small effect on by actively engaging on this issue.

[paulinescotlandcd]

I tend to agree with you. Many people might say they are fine with it but behind closed doors they probably have a different less tolerant viewpoint.

[docrobbysherry]

In my experience? If I want acceptance I go to gay/T venues. Like clubs and bars. Or, attend large T events where there r so many of us we're considered a phenomenon.

My experience going out alone, especially to vanilla venues, is acceptance by some SA's, tolerance by other SA's, and either disgust or just being ignored by the general public. I'm likely to be stared at as that lone, "weirdo".:eek:

Unless u can pass, don't expect to be accepted in vanilla venues. Tolerance is the best I hope for!:brolleyes:

[DIANEF]

In living memory homosexuality was a crime in the UK, look at the case of Alan Turing for just one example, now we have Pride parades. I think general acceptance may happen one day, maybe already in some cases but how far off that is I wouldn't care to speculate.

[Pat]

Unless u can pass, don't expect to be accepted in vanilla venues. Tolerance is the best I hope for!:brolleyes:

Are you talking about when you're out in the mask and suit? You used to say that you never went out en femme without the mask, so I'm not sure what you're saying. The mask would certainly add another level of complexity to dealing with people. I'm always out in vanilla venues and I get treated well.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Vicky:hugs:, There will never be total acceptance or Total Rejection, It is just an individual thing,>Orchid...:daydreaming:...

[Nikki A.]

Personally as long as I am treated politely and or professionally I really don't care if it acceptance or toleration. What is said after I leave I have no control over or do I really care.
Of course if they have something nice to say about how I dressed, well who won't accept a complement. Even if they don't agree with what I'm wearing.

[Dana44]

Hi Vicky, I am accepted by my SO. Tolerated by society. Liked by a few of them.

[Beverley Sims]

Generally speaking tolerance will be around for all time.........Acceptance will come much later, maybe in about twenty years....

Am I an optimist or something? :-)

[Gillian Gigs]

It is difficult to know the difference between acceptance and tolerance within a group. People may seem accepting to your face, but when you are gone their real attitude shows through the gossip that takes place. It starts with tolerance, hopefully it moves to acceptance and finally onto embracing, this depends on the group of individuals. If you can't get to tolerance in a DADT relationship with your spouse, then some of us might wonder where we could ever get it. There are groups of people that are more accepting than others. To me it boils down to a couple of things. 1. does the group want to maintain the status quo? I call these the good old boys clubs. 2. are they inclusive, or exclusive. 3. are they using their religion to control, or using it to love! 4. on an individual level is it all about them, or all about us.
Power corrupts, and people seek power in many ways. They want to control money, they want to control people, intolerence is just another way to attempt to control, as in if you don't do it my way I wouldn't like you. There are some excellent comments here, we move forward one person at a time.

[Helen_Highwater]

In living memory homosexuality was a crime in the UK, look at the case of Alan Turing for just one example, now we have Pride parades. I think general acceptance may happen one day, maybe already in some cases but how far off that is I wouldn't care to speculate.

Taking Diane's point how would Gays sit in the toleration or acceptance issue? Yes there are those for whom view being gay is an aberration often on religious grounds or based nothing more on plain bigotry. Beyond that it seems to me that Gays are generally a non issue now in British society, and that for me is acceptance. Now the shock or novelty value has gone from same sex marriage it's gone off the media's radar.

For Trans folk I think the issue is less clear. A few high profile cases have been magnified, perhaps distorted is a better term, by the gutter press. This can lead to a reinforcement of negative views held by some. However, if you look at what's happening in schools, gender issues are much more sympathetically handled. There's far greater recognition of transgender as not being a choice but as real and male and female. The NHS personal information gathered gives more that the 2 traditional options when asking as to the patients gender. Things are changing.

For a great many I feel their attitude is somewhere between acceptance and tolerance. More that they can't be bothered to have an opinion. Perhaps what's helped inform the general public more when it comes to the Gay issue is the exposure, and by exposure I mean hosting TV programs, lead roles in film and TV, of openly gay celebrates. They've gone mainstream. Perhaps that's what we need. Trans people doing mainstream TV in just the same way a genetic male or female person would. A sort of, "See they're really quite normal when you get to know them".

So perhaps that's the thing we need to do. Interact with SA's, anyone in just a normal manner and create a good impression. Normalise that image they may have stowed in the back of their minds.

So do I think acceptance is a pipe dream? No, it won't happen quickly, it will never be totally universal but that's true of many elements within society but the day is coming were CD'ers who present in a non flamboyant, non threatening, dressed as Mrs/Miss average, normal for the time and place, will become a non issue and hence I would say accepted member of society.

[Pat]

People may seem accepting to your face, but when you are gone their real attitude shows through the gossip that takes place.

But that dynamic exists in all human endeavors. I have never been a part of any group where that didn't describe the behavior of the members toward each other. So I think that's just being human. Personally, I'll totally accept tolerance and mark it up as a win. ;)

[CONSUELO]

I often consider how we are treated by society when compared to society's treatment of gays. My impression is that gays are tolerated by society and this is upheld in law. A parallel would be the toleration of different religious beliefs by society. To tolerate something can be a passive activity. You just acknowledge that a particular view or lifestyle has the right to exist but you don't have to embrace it or engage with it in any meaningful way. Within that society there are those who accept gays and in doing so befriend or otherwise engage with them.

When a gay couple moved into the house opposite there were many different responses from the neighbors, many just tolerated them which meant they did not criticize them or make their lives difficult. They took very little notice of them or even ignored them but did not behave badly towards them in either speech or action. Others of us became friends with the couple and frequently socialized with them. To me that was acceptance. In accepting we embraced the couple and brought them into our circle of friendship.

I believe if society as a whole tolerates cross dressing we shall also find that there are those in society who will go further and accept us. So, the two states are not mutually exclusive and I think we can live very well in a tolerant society and within that society we shall find pockets of acceptance.

[Rachael Leigh]

There are many things people don’t accept and while it would be nice to know wherever you go to be fully accepted it’s not
going to happen. I do think more people do have the I don’t care attitude towards trans people but full acceptance prob won’t happen
Rachael

[Vicky_Scot]

There was a time when homosexuality was definitely neither accepted nor tolerated virtually anywhere, but we’ve made strides and today, by and large, it is accepted. Within the lifetimes of many of the members here we had segregation here in the US. Times change and people change.

I can not speak and would not dare speak for the gay community but my personnel view is that I think if you asked them if they were accepted, the majority would say they are still more tolerated rather than accepted by society in general.

[NancySue]

In our area, 100 miles, Toleration is barely in existence, let alone acceptance. My take is even what might be viewed as toleration is really just an extension of being politically correct...just don’t say anything. What appears as toleration can also be passive-aggression too. Discovery would not be treated as toleration. I think we’re light years from both toleration AND acceptance.

[Trione]

I live about a 100 miles from a city that has some level of acceptance and is tolerant, but I live 60 miles from another city that is not in any way accepting and not even tolerant. I have a couple of gay neighbors, nice guys great neighbors. They know nothing of my CD life and the people around here would be ugly if they knew.

[Lana Mae]

I would say tolerance is more wide spread than acceptance! This may change in the future but I do not expect to see it in my time! Hugs Lana Mae

[jack-ie]

If a person looks down on my crossdressing but still accepts it and does nothing negative toward it, how is that different from tolerance? Are we confusing lack of encouragement, lack of approval for intolerance/acceptance?

[~Joanne~]

I think most people have accepted the premise that a biological man or woman may have been born in the wrong body. How does a cross dresser present his case for his desire to emulate a woman? Can anyone point a finger to the answer when a cross dresser cannot answer the question for himself?

Exactly. This topic is pretty deep and from what I have read on quite a few posts in it, the view point is that of a TG, not a CD. As a CD, I emulate a woman, I enjoy doing so, I enjoy the clothing and the freedom of it all but honestly, it last for whatever amount of time I am dressed and isn't present when I am not. That's how I know I am a CD and not a TG.

"getting out there" seems more like a "support our cause" statement more than anything else. Like Steph stated, explaining your not transgendered, that your a crossdresser is far from easy when asked while your out there and actually may bring more hostility than tolerance, let alone acceptance.

Why would anyone risk family, friends, and personally well being for something that you do part time just to relax or have an adventure out as a woman? This is why I have always looked at CDing as more cosplay than lifestyle. You put the clothes on, you emulate for whatever period of time and then go back to being who it is you really are. Saying your TG when your not is just as bad as the way people treat you.

JMO

[CONSUELO]

i read an article today about Amazon's search for a city where they can build their second HQ. The writer made the point that some cities in the running will have to prove to Amazon that it meets the Company's policies about, amongst other things, LGBT rights. So, unless we cross dressers want to consider ourselves as outside the LGBT community, doesn't this mean that we already have a high degree of tolerance and even acceptance within some of the major US corporations

So, I believe that we already have a high degree of toleration by society in the US and some parts of that society are also accepting. When I am in the UK I also feel that there is a high degree of acceptance. I see cross dressers and TG people out in public there all the time and for the most part they go about their business without fear, but there will always be some parts of a society that may never accept us.

[Tina_gm]

Acceptance vs tolerance, I personally don't see much difference. A person can accept something and still not like it. Tolerance is a,more purely negative statement, to tolerate is an act or mindset to deal with something that we do not like or is disconcerting. Like tolerating the heat or cold etc etc.

Acceptance doesn't mean liking. If someone "likes" something then acceptance would not be an issue either.

[Jean 103]

Acceptance is more then just some knowing my name and saying hi. I mean like a friend of mine renting me a house as Jean . Hanging out with my best friend and her boyfriend. Her dad who I have met a few times asks about me all the time. My friend Mr K is feeling down and he calls me. At this house my two roommates and I put on a few party's . I was the hostess. I could go on and on. As I said this is my life.

[Charlotte7]

My take on this is that acceptance follows tolerance, but either can only happen with knowledge. People react badly against what they fear and it's not uncommon to fear the unknown. Knowledge of cross dressing can only come when more people are exposed to cross dressing, but for many of us, me included this is a private behaviour. However, such exposure can carry real risks, rejection from family, friends, colleagues, society etc. But there can be benefits.

This is an ongoing situation and it is changing all the time. As has been said above, I'm not suggesting that we all turn up to the next BBQ in a dress, general society isn't ready for it yet.

But, when I look back at my young self and the world I grew up in, a world where I only came across two TG people in the media, to the world now, where most people are aware that we exist and are at least content with that, we've come a long way, I would say in a few short years, but in reality it's been a long time.

I think that a lot of these things are changed by the young people. There are TG children in many schools all over the place. Young people today, in increasing numbers, are growing and learning that those who are TG are normal people and not freaks. Such exposure, such upbringing can only help, but it will be a long time.

Me? I do my bit when I go out shopping. I shop in normal shops, I make no pretence that what I am buying is for anyone other than me, though I don't make a big fuss of this either. In this way, hopefully, more people can be exposed to the fact that there are men who like to wear ladies clothes and, at the end of the day, they're just a normal part of society that is trying to make its way in the World.

And, yes, I realise that how long this will take varies very much on actual location. Some places will take much longer than others.

[sometimes_miss]

I thnk one or the mistakes in this, is that for some who believe it is a choice, it's simply that they feel that while we may have always been transgendered, ts, tg, that we have the choice as to whether to express it or not. Pretty much everyone goes through their day, holding back things they would like to do or say, because it's something that they consider inappropriate. So they must wonder, why we feel free to express something which is perhaps the MOST inappropriate thing they could imagine. Society has always placed a great responsibility on men to behave in certain ways, and, express a great deal of self control. Insisting that we be allowed to do something they consider frivolous just makes them feel that we have no self discipline at all. And that is a disturbing thing to people in our society, because throughout our history it's been of utmost importance for the survival of cultures for their males to adhere to the rules, or that society could be overrun by another. After all, in a war we're supposed to dismiss any concern for self, and run headlong into enemy fire 'for the greater good'. Let's not pretend it doesn't take a whole lot of willpower to intentionally run towards incredible pain and what is most likely certain death. And in comparison to that, our fellow man thinks it shouldn't be any big deal to suppress the desire to dress up in girl clothes and think or behave like a woman. And they have a point. After all, this is why we're definitely seen as having what they perceive to be a first world problem.
See, everyone has problems. The rest of society just sees tg feelings as only one of many of ours; we have to hide what we are. Everyone has secrets, things they don't tell others. Women don't broadcast their intimate lady issues, guys don't go around talking about their crotch rot, and most who have psoriasis try to hide it. Have herpes? Do you feel the need to tell everyone you see? Of course not. This is our secret to hold, as they see it, a thing we should just not discuss or display. This is why so many are pissed off at us; they don't understand why we feel the need to express what we are, to everyone (hence the outcry about Caitlyn Jenner). And of course, lets not forget the ones who are latent gay/cd/tg/ts who can't bear the idea of seeing us, because it just reminds them of who they are, and they're trying their hardest to NOT deal with that!
We're approaching acceptance by a decent percentage, as long as we stay out of THEIR lives, despite that percentage who hate us. But greater than that, we still have to be concerned with the fact that acceptance doesn't change whether women will find femininity, or more accurately, the LACK of masculinity in men, sexually attractive. Women are attracted to alpha male behavior. We are the opposite. So even if they accept us, that's probably not going to get us out of the friend zones anytime soon. There will always be a few women out there, but no where's near the number for each of us to have our own CD enthusiast GF. The number of women who get all hot and bothered at the thought of a crossdresser is slim indeed.