Bi when dressed

[Jenny Warren]

I was just wondering, do any of you use the phrase 'Bi when Dressed' to describe yourself?

I've seen this phrase a lot, and it intrigues me.

Jenny

[Genevieve G]

From my point of view, I am sexually attracted to men, but that's because I truly feel that I have the mind of a woman.

Tina

[rachealgirl]

I would have to go with somewhere in between. I could see my self slow dancing and maybe fliertting with a man while dressed.....but not much futher then that.

[Shelly Preston]

I think the best explanation I heard on this.

I was told that being seen as a woman by a guy gave them a special thrill and they would do anything to make the man happy.

They hated the thought they would be seen as attractive in male mode.

I guess its a lot more complicated but it seemed to convey the message.

[Gale R]

Hi girls, i have to say that it would not even cross my mind that i would consider myself to be bi when dressed, definately hetro wether glam or drab.
My SO wouldn't have it any other way.:)

Hugs Gale.

[Julie Avery]

During the short time I've been here, this is already 2'nd time around on this. I tend to agree with what another person posted (I tried to search out the post, but failed), to the effect that a person who experiences this is probably bisexual all the time, just less inhibited when en femme.

[SuzyZahn]

Yes,,,your not alone in those feelings,,,I`m very straight,,but when I`m Susan i get those funny bi feelings of what it may be like??? hmmm,,anyways,,an interesting thought,feelings,erotic too!! I personally probably will never move forward, physically on any of those thoughts/feelings..

[paulaN]

I think I am bi weather dressed or not. But I have never acted on it never had the chance too.

[Sonia_cd]

Don't make sense to me. If you're bi when dressed, then you are bi, undressed as well ;) [I mean in male mode]. Vice versa, if you're straight when dressed, then you're straight, period!

How is it possible to be bi when dressed and straight when not?

As for me, its women only, dressed or not... :D

Cheers!
Sonia

[Teresa Amina]

With a MAN? Ewwwwwwww!!!! Don't think so! Now I'd love to have a GG girlfriend that goes along with my Dressing, she could even dress as a man if she wanted to but as weird as I probably am.............:o

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

to the effect that a person who experiences this is probably bisexual all the time, just less inhibited when en femme.


I think it's interesting about me, because I consider myself pretty much straight, but I do buy into that Kinsey Scale philosophy and probably rank myself at a 2 on it, that of being mostly heterosexual but an occasional homosexual desire. But what I think is funny is, not when I'm dressed. The rare times I've thought about getting physical with another guy, I've wanted to be a guy doing it. My girl side is all about the lesbianism.

[Francesca Chantel]

Francesca Chantel doesn't even try to attract men... Nor has the desire to be with one.

[annekathleen]

For me, I could be!

[Sarah Coleman]

With a MAN? Ewwwwwwww!!!! Don't think so! Now I'd love to have a GG girlfriend that goes along with my Dressing, she could even dress as a man if she wanted to but as weird as I probably am.............:o

Teresa,

Couldn't have said it any better myself. I like GGs only.

[Robyn2006]

Good lord, I love men and so dream of having a prince charming to play with. For me, especially when I'm completely dressed to kill (as I've now been all this wonderful Saturday!), there is nothing more erotic than the fantasy of having a man's lips to pull to mine, to feel my lipstick peal from his lips, to have him in every way possible... Christ, don't get me started!

But Bi? Seems wrong to say that, for when I become as feminine I know to be, the transformation goes to my bones, to my very soul, and I wish for everything a woman does. I'm no different. I'm not bi, I'm completely straight!

Robyn

[Mitzi]

With a MAN? Ewwwwwwww!!!! Don't think so!
Me wear women's clothes? Ewwwwwwww!!!! Don't think so!

(Being attracted to other tg's count as bi?)

Mitzi

[EllenCD]

I am definitely with Robyn on this issue. I have invested a substantial fortune in creating my "Feminine Mystique" and have the wonders of Medical Science and Cosmetic Surgery to thank for the results. I have always been attracted to males and feel my acquired feminineity provides an outward projection of my true internal identity. With the ever changing mores of our society I hope to one day enjoy marital bliss with a Mr. Wright wherever he is.

[size7satin]

Im bi every living second ....... I just prefer to be bi en femme.....

[Frannie]

I really feel BI when I am fully dressed.Its a real turn-on thinking about having his hands all over me.Guess I'm a dirty female at heart.What kind of female would I like to be ??? A pro.

[Angela Burke]

Much as I love dressing as a woman I have no sexual interest in men.
I try to subscribe to the "try everything at least once" lifestyle.
But I could never have a sexual relationship with another man.
You'd have to put me in the 100% crossdresser, 100% heterosexual category.

[livy_m_b]

In the interest of putting a different spin on things:

I tend to regard the terms "homosexual", "gay", "lesbian", "heterosexual" etc. as statements describing behavior instead of statements describing an underlying condition or state of being. I'm not trying to resurrect the endless discussions about these terms, however, just preparing you for the following:

Whether I'm en femme or en homme, I am strictly heterosexual! That is, I want to be treated (and to treat) sexually in accordance with my persona at the time.

Those things said: I've never done anything with men and am not likely to. I generally find male-on-male sexuality very unappealing, but if I did do something, it would be with a hetero male who was able to be hetero and happy with my femininity.

There are a couple of films out there that show this aspect pretty clearly. One is "The Crying Game" - the guy falls for a girl who isn't, so to speak, and reacts with revulsion, but then finds he's still in love with "her". That subtheme in an otherwise grim, but great movie, is a real pleasure to observe. Another is the british film "Different for Girls" in which two mates at school encounter each other after one is no longer a bloke, and gradually fall in love.

[KarenNY]

Speaking as someone who has been on dates with men while dressed en femme, I guess I would fall into the "bi when dressed" category. I'm not interested in anything sexual with a man at all. I have gone no further than slow dancing, holding hands and kissing with a guy, and that was with someone I knew well and who knew I was a guy underneath my women's clothes. I think I enjoy the special treatment that a lady gets from a gentleman, and I have been fortunate to experience mostly positive times with guys, whether they knew I was a CDer or not (in the case of guys I rollerskated with or danced with at clubs when I was much younger, they didn't know).

Now I would say I'm strictly hetero because I'm married, etc., but there is that part of me when I'm dressed en femme that would love to go out to dinner and dancing with a gentleman. My one unfulfilled ambition while crossdressed is to be a bride in a mock wedding or photo session with a male groom. I hope to do that one day, whether it's with an admirer or one of my T*-girl friends en drab!

Sounds strange I know, but I guess I'm pretty strange anyways...

[Sweet Susan]

It's not that I'm bi when dressed, but I am. It's more that I'm bi when "you" are dressed. A man in a dress is very, very appealing.

[windycissy]

When I'm in drab, the thought of doing anything with another guy is a total turn-off, even the idea of watching Brokeback Mountain grosses me out. However....when I'm dressed and with Mr. Right, I feel very affectionate towards him and doing physical stuff seems kinda natural. All we've done so far is a little smooching and fondling, but I am so curious about how I make him feel. It makes me feel wonderful to make him feel good. Cissy

[Janelle Young]

Dressed or in drab I have no attraction to men. I still can't figure out what GG's find attractive about men. Now women yum, I guess I am a lesbian.

[KathrynW]

Bi when dressed?
This is a complete myth. You’re either straight, gay, or bi - no matter how you‘re dressed. The clothes change your outward appearance, not your complete brain chemistry. If you’re a heterosexual male, the act of crossdressing will not give you the desire for men.
When someone says they’re bi only when crossdressed, it’s basically an excuse because they don’t want to admit to being bi or gay. Honesty is the best policy.

[bebe nylons]

Definetly could be very bi when Dressed. Fantasize about when Dressed. Never enters my mind when in Drab. Would just like to find a guy that would like me to Dress for him. Going out in Public Dressed would not be a problem either. Hugs. bebe

[TGMarla]

Sorry, but KathrynW is right. You don't suddenly change your sexual orientation just because you slipped into some pantyhose. There's a big difference between having a man treat you as a lady when out somewhere, and having a sexual encounter with one. One fulfils a fantasy of having a night out as a lady with a gentleman. The other is nothing less than homosexuality. I am not denigrating homosexuality here. I'm merely telling some of you to take off the blinders. If you desire men in a sexual way while dressed, you desire the same thing when not dressed. The dressing merely amplifies the emotions. So let's stop this "I'm only bi when I'm dressed" crap. You either are or you aren't.

[KarenNY]

TGMarla said:

Sorry, but KathrynW is right. You don't suddenly change your sexual orientation just because you slipped into some pantyhose. There's a big difference between having a man treat you as a lady when out somewhere, and having a sexual encounter with one. One fulfils a fantasy of having a night out as a lady with a gentleman. The other is nothing less than homosexuality. I am not denigrating homosexuality here. I'm merely telling some of you to take off the blinders. If you desire men in a sexual way while dressed, you desire the same thing when not dressed. The dressing merely amplifies the emotions. So let's stop this "I'm only bi when I'm dressed" crap. You either are or you aren't

Well, I guess Marla kind of hit it on the head here -- I'm probably not bi at all because I really have no desires to be with a guy in any way, other than the above, experiencing the way a man treats a lady on evening out. I'm not interested in any kind of sexual encounter with a man, nor have I had any. I really prefer women in all the ways that matter.

The way I see guys is they are an "accessory" to my femininity -- having a gentleman treat me like a lady when I am dressed kind of amplifies my own feelings of being feminine. In other words, the guy kind of provides a masculine contrast to my faux-femininity, and also kind of affirms my feminine role by treating me like a lady. It's sort of complicated, but it's how I organize it all in my head.

:)

[KathrynW]

I'm merely telling some of you to take off the blinders. If you desire men in a sexual way while dressed, you desire the same thing when not dressed. The dressing merely amplifies the emotions. So let's stop this "I'm only bi when I'm dressed" crap. You either are or you aren't.
Thank You, Marla...you're 100% correct. ;) I personally don't care, you can be as gay as a day at the circus, if that's what floats your boat.
Just be honest, if you are. Is that so hard? Especially here?

There are some who read this forum seeking answers. There's no need to make this whole CD deal any more confusing than it already is... ;)

[windycissy]

If you desire men in a sexual way while dressed, you desire the same thing when not dressed.

Sorry, Marla, but you are just plain wrong, at least as far as I'm concerned. That may be the way you feel, but there is no way you can say that you know how I feel, because you don't.

I have spent over 99% of my life as a straight, hetro guy with zero interest in getting in on with another guy. Something happens to me when I'm dolled up and dating an attractive man. It's a different kind of turn-on, not about getting off myself, more of a rush from pleasing him.

Maybe I'm unique, but that's how it is for me.

Cissy

[Lauren Richards]

I think I am a male lesbian. I love women, no matter how I am dressed.

Lauren

[livy_m_b]

Well, I'm sorry, but I think desire is more complex than some of the recent posts. I have no interest whatever in male on male sex. You can assert all you want that I do, because I can find men sexually attractive when en femme, but I guarantee no man is going to put his p**** anyplace near my anus. Nor is he going to put it anywhere near me at all unless he is responding to my femininity and not my masculinity, such as it is. On the other hand, in fantasy, I am more than willing to be "woman" to a suitable man's "man". But that won't happen until and unless I'm am complete, as I see it, woman, even if that amounts to being an incomplete "man". But this is not a criticism of anyone else, just a statement of things as I see them.

[Rachel Morley]

I'm afraid I'm on the side of not understanding the concept of "bi when dressed". It doesn't matter what I'm wearing, the last thing on my mind is men. I don't suddenly change my sexual orientation when I change my socks.

There are many variables on the gender/sexual scale and I definately wouldn't want to decry anyone elses preferences, but for me when I'm dressed I feel nice inside, I want to be even more tactile and "touchy feely" than I normally am (and I'm like this quite a lot anyway) when this happens loving thoughts always center around my wife Marla. Maybe that's one of the reasons why cding has become an intergral part of our marrige.

So for me, the whole "bi when dressed" thing doesn't make any sense - sorry 0.02

[livy_m_b]

With respect, the fact that you don't understand me, or I don't understand you, isn't all that important - neither of us is the judge of the other person's experience. By necessity on the practical level, we have to interpret others according to our own feelings and responses. After all, there's no "mind translator" printing out a output legible to all saying exactly what thoughts are passing through the mind, and sometimes it's very important to assess what the other person might be thinking. But we shouldn't overestimate the categorical validity of our interpretations. At best it's a rough guide. Each of us has a mind, emotions, personality, tendencies, etc. that are genetically determined in greater or lesser part. Part of growing up, and I'm not saying this about you, but about me, is learning how inadequate our own experience base is for evaluating others. At that point, it's just about listening so that we have input about others' experiences too.

But some go further, and say that because they can't understand what someone says or does, that those others are just fooling themselves, etc., and that is to be dismissive and egocentric in the extreme. Perhaps we should read such statements only as saying that "If I did that, I would be fooling myself."

[Gisele]

I would have to go with somewhere in between. I could see my self slow dancing and maybe fliertting with a man while dressed.....but not much futher then that.

I would have to go with this one. My SO said that she would let me flirt or dance with a man at a club and only if I asked if it was OK.

Other than that I don't see myself wanting anything more.

[TGMarla]

Sorry, Marla, but you are just plain wrong, at least as far as I'm concerned. That may be the way you feel, but there is no way you can say that you know how I feel, because you don't.Well, WC, you're right about one thing...I don't know how you feel. But this is not a question of feeling. It's a question of whether you are actually homosexual, and whether your crossdressing is the key to the door that lets it out. It matters little that these feelings subside some when not dressed. You don't become some other person completely just because you pop into a skirt. If you do, then there is professional help that would love to put you on their couch for intensive therapy dealing with split personality disorder. But look: You cannot have it both ways. Short of you being a real couch case, you are either bisexual, or you're not. That fact simply doesn't change just because you changed your clothes.

[Karren H]

NOT Straight dressed or not!!

Love Karren

[KathrynW]

Well, WC, you're right about one thing...I don't know how you feel. But this is not a question of feeling. It's a question of whether you are actually homosexual, and whether your crossdressing is the key to the door that lets it out.
I have to completely agree with Marla on this...
It doesn't really matter if a person *used to be* heterosexual.
That was then - This is now...
Things Change...
People Change...

You don't become some other person completely just because you pop into a skirt.
You cannot have it both ways. Short of you being a real couch case, you are either bisexual, or you're not. That fact simply doesn't change just because you changed your clothes.
Absolutely Correct...clothes don't completely change a person's brain.
It's simply impossible.
If you really do believe changing clothing makes you some other person...I'd be careful who you tell this sort of thing to. It could get you locked in a rubber room. ;)

[angelinamillar]

Oh god no, I find men rather repulsive, I sometimes wonder what it is that women see in these hairy, smelly creatures. Angelina is most definitely lesbian and she's proud of it. Funny thing is that i was seeing a Bi girl when I was 18 and she is one of the few girls I introduced Angelina to and she found her rather sexy, more so that she helped Angelina get her look. But as 2 being bi whilst dressed, thats a big no no, sry hun. If you say ya bi when dress then u are bi!!!

Hugs,

Angelina :p

[annekathleen]

Im bi when dressed,
Im bi when naked!!!

[windycissy]

Now girls,

I hardly think I'm a "couch case" or a candidate for a "rubber room"....although your hysterical reactions gives me pause about sharing my experiences and feelings with this forum. It does amuse me to have guys who get a kick out of dressing up in women's clothes take me to task for being outside the mainstream. Is there no escaping political correctness?

Cissy

[TGMarla]

Pardon me. I'm not hysterical. Nor am I attempting to squelch your sharing of your crossdressing experience. That's what this forum is all about. But it would hardly be a forum, by its very definition, an exchange of ideas, if you did not find some dissent in your opinions. I'm not trying to pile on you, but I disagree with your point of view. Furthermore, I have given valid reasons why I disagree with you. No crime there. It doesn't make me hysterical, either. If fact, I'm feeling quite lucid at the moment.

[Jodi]

I am straight all the way. BTW, I learned a long time ago that there is no right or wrong on opinions. They are just that--opinions. My opinion is--If a person has bi feelings while dressed, that person is bi. A leopard may change mountains, but he will never change his spots.

Jodi

[KathrynW]

Is there no escaping political correctness?

Nice spin WC, but...AFAIK, this thread never has been about whether anyone is "PC" or not.
If anyone is not "PC", it would definitely be me. :p

And for the record, I'm not hysterical either...;)

WC, I don't really think there's much point to continue posting in this thread.
It's simply not worth it. People start getting their cornflakes peed on and someone usually goes home with their panties in a wad. This happens every time this subject is brought up here.
My opinion? I think it would be best if this thread were locked.

However, I do have one question to ask you before I bid you a fond farewell...
On your website, you state -"I am not looking for male companionship!"
Then earlier in this very thread you state - "when I'm dressed and with Mr. Right, I feel very affectionate towards him and doing physical stuff seems kinda natural".
Is this meant to be deliberately confusing??
Or is this just one of those things that makes a person say...Hmmmmmmmm??? ;)

[kathy gg]

I don't claim to know what goes on in any other persons head and heart. But what I usually feel after reading these posts about "into women dressed as a man and into men when dressed as a woman"....is that there are people who really dislike the idea as being viewed as anything but "straight".

To me it shows "possibly" a disdain for being percieved as 'gay', in either mode of gender presentation. This is the same disdain alot of women who are married to cd's talk about....they dread the world viewing them as a "lesbian" with their crossdressed husband.

I think because being gay or bi-sexual for so many who are older and grew up with it being "against God" and all that other stuff makes it a reason to appear 'straight' and uphold that. I have certainly come across plenty of homophobic crossdressers in my years in the community, not saying any of you who posted are that way, but being homophobic with-in this community does exsist.

I stopped trying to worry or think about how people view me. I am a female who likes and is attracted to cd's (espically my hubby!). When I am walking down the street holding my crossdressed husbands' hand there are people who will assume I am a lesbian. There are people who will asume I am bi-sexual. Funny thing...most people dont' assume I am "straight". But, I am a born female and I am with a born male. We both have the body parts we were born with under our clothing. Pants, skirts, dresses, or what ever, we still are who we are. I know who I am and I know who he is. I don't really care how other people label me anymore. I suppose once people "know" me they put a "straight" label on me. But would the wife who can't stand the idea of kissing her husband with lipstick on like knowing she is sharing her "straight" lable with me....? Probably not. So maybe they have not invented a word to describe me yet. When in doubt I like the word "queer".

I just beleive if you have feelings which don't "fit" the labels we have available why try to justify or come up with reasons or defend what ever your attractions are? Why even bother clinging on to those labels? This need to hang on tightly to "straight" seems unnecessary in the grand scheme of things.

[Sweet Susan]

I'm in agreement with WC on this. Marla and Kathryn are at odds with reality, and I am really wondering where they got their psych degrees. Just because somebody doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong. In fact, I'd say that sexual preference and any rationalization for it is way beyond any layman's ability to decipher. Besides, this thread isn't about who is right or wrong, it's about using a phrase when dressed. It's okay to think one way when dressed and another when not dressed without needing to go and see a shrink, Marla. Nobody is gonna win on this on.

[Rachel Ann]

Hey, ladies, everybody has specialized versions of what attracts them. I like women but not all women. Some people are only attracted to persons of a certain race. Some have fetishes that must accompany arousal (velvet was an example cited by Krafft-Ebing in Psychopathia Sexualis). So I can't see why someone can't be attracted to the same sex only when dressed.

Since everybody else is 'fessing up, I'll say that I would like to be danced and romanced en femme. I haven't experienced a desire to have sex with a man, but never say never. I have made an interesting discovery about myself: I'm not attracted to men in drab, but when it's another Tgirl I sometimes am. So you could say that I am bi with respect to sex but not to gender. (Or is it the other way around? I'm SO CONFUSED! :cheeky:)

I, for one, find that I am different in a lot of ways when en femme than when in drab. That's the whole point of it - dressing is a cue / trigger to bring out the feminine part of my heart, mind and soul. I suppose that the same thing could be achieved by meditation or something but I am no Zen master, so dressing it is for me.

Anyway, I don't see why my sexuality can't be a function of my gender mode at a given time. The ways that I act, speak and feel about all sorts of things depend on that. For that matter, I project different personalities and feel different ways in various settings - my "self" in a business office is not the same as my "self" at a party or a concert.

So, let's not get so hung up on labels, and just do as we please, which is the way it ought to be. If you must pigeonhole everybody, call me whatever you like.

Rachel xxx :cool:

[Mitzi]

As a guy, I have zero desire to be snuggled or kissed by another guy. On the other hand, en femme, I would not object to being intimate to the extent described by KarenNY, as long as he understood it would go no further... It would, as she says, validate Mitzi's femininity. But I can't say for 100% sure that I couldn't be aroused to the point of abandoning my inhibitions.

It's easy to say one should never let it go that far, but we're describing a hypothetical situation.

The point here is that different scenarios can bring out different sexualities.

Mitzi

[Rachel Ann]

Oh, for the days when we took words like "insane", "weird" and "degenerate" as compliments! :p




The point here is that different scenarios can bring out different sexualities.I absolutely agree.



Things Change ... People Change ...For all I know I was always TG, even before I became aware of it. Or maybe I “became” TG. What does it matter? I’m just happy to be living a life that fulfills me.



...clothes don't completely change a person's brain.No, but they certainly change one’s consciousness!



If you really do believe changing clothing makes you some other person...I'd be careful who you tell this sort of thing to. It could get you locked in a rubber room. Not another person, but a manifestation of another personality. You don’t have to have “Multiple Personality Disorder” to have multiple personalities, most folks have a few. Unless you want to argue about what “personality” means – I suppose you could say “affect”, but I think it involves more than that.

Rachel xxx

[windycissy]

However, I do have one question to ask you before I bid you a fond farewell...
On your website, you state -"I am not looking for male companionship!"
Then earlier in this very thread you state - "when I'm dressed and with Mr. Right, I feel very affectionate towards him and doing physical stuff seems kinda natural".
Is this meant to be deliberately confusing??
Or is this just one of those things that makes a person say...Hmmmmmmmm??? ;)

Get a life! My lame little website was put together long before I met Mr. Right. In my very first post about dating him, I admitted that "never in a million years did I think this would happen"...I guess I am evolving, and if you think you're confused, that makes two of us....Cissy

[Rachel Ann]

WC, I don't really think there's much point to continue posting in this thread. It's simply not worth it. … My opinion? I think it would be best if this thread were locked.
Just because you don’t want to talk about it any more doesn’t mean it should be locked. Many have poured their hearts out about this and lots of posts were made in a short time. So it’s about a lot more than your argument with Windy. There is clearly a lot of interest in the subject. You always have the option of unsubscribing.



On your website, you state -"I am not looking for male companionship!"
Windy’s comment notwithstanding, I post “not looking for … “ various things in a lot of my online profiles. I actually am looking for those things, just not from those sources! ;)

[rikkiluvxxx]

...i personally enjoy dressed up lady boys...i guess im gay but could never do it with gay that does not dress up...i still luv the girly look...it arouses me...

[jonilace]

I suppose I am more so than when not , but it still yurns me on to be with a guy undressed. I just love to be dressed and undressed I guess.

[Lisa Baby]

Good lord, I love men and so dream of having a prince charming to play with. For me, especially when I'm completely dressed to kill (as I've now been all this wonderful Saturday!), there is nothing more erotic than the fantasy of having a man's lips to pull to mine, to feel my lipstick peal from his lips, to have him in every way possible... Christ, don't get me started!

But Bi? Seems wrong to say that, for when I become as feminine I know to be, the transformation goes to my bones, to my very soul, and I wish for everything a woman does. I'm no different. I'm not bi, I'm completely straight!

Robyn

I agree with Robyn 2000%!

I feel as if I am a true woman and wish to be fulfilled as one.

Lisa

[mhenry]

I must support Windy and her sisters on this one.

Some CDs feel sorta Bi when dressed...and only when dressed. Some CDs don't feel that way at all. etc, etc.

Look at all the categories on "URNOTALONE" !!!

Is a TS who wants to date a man ...Straight...Homosexual...Bi??

ps: to me, Straight/Bi/Homosexual don't exactly fit CDs anyway, not in the traditional meaning anyway. Just my 2 cents :) Janet

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

A few thoughts....

* There's a big difference between fantasies (that are intriguing but one has no desire to act on), desires (things you'd like to do, regardless of whether you've done them) and actual behavior. Fantasies about "being the woman" sexually do seem to be pretty common from what I've seen (for a variety of reasons). I suspect the number of people who might actually act that out given the opportunity is probably a bit smaller.

* There's plenty of other examples of where sexuality can take unexpected turns. Both prison inmates and immigrant laborers have engaged in homosexual sex when women weren't available. (And engaging in this behavior isn't necessarily seen as "gay sex.") As Kinsey pointed out sexuality -- like gender -- is a spectrum that our society chooses to see as either/or. So for some folks, being en femme, gives them permission to acknowledge attractions that they normally repress.

* As Rachel Ann pointed out, desire is frequently conditional. Hence the jokes about how everyone in bars gets more attractive the closer is it to closing time. Or feminists who became lesbians for political reasons.

* As Marla GG pointed out a while back, a number of "bi-curious" CDs might be better termed "penetration curious."

* For others, the attraction appears be about being the one being romanced than having to be the one who does the romancing. Of course, there's nothing that says those can't be reversed without changing one's gender presentation, but let's face it, a chance to step out of our "every day" gender role expectations is probably a big factor in why we crossdress. So it's not surprising that one might step out of our "every day" sexual attractions either.

Ya know KathrynW, for someone who claims to have an attitude of "not that there's anything wrong with that," you sure don't seem to miss an opportunity to jump all over people you insist are really closeted gays.... :thumbsdn:

[Jennaie]

Somewhere I heard that worms are both male and female. So when a worm has sex or "mates" their female side is having sex with the male side of the other worm and their male side is having sex with the female side of the other worm.

Although I don't have both male and female parts, I'm kindof a worm.

I truly wish that I could change sex at will. It would allow me to experience both worlds and over time decide which I was most comfortable with.

[Rachel Ann]

Very well said, Marlena!

When you consider that we are working with at least three independent variables - sex, gender and sexuality - the spectrum gets complex indeed.

The traditional "GLBT + Straight" (not to mention the intersexed) paradigm keeps getting more complex - and the sets intersect. Let's all just live and let live, and leave the labels to the academics. :cheeky:

Rachel xxx

[VeronicaMoonlit]

But what I usually feel after reading these posts about "into women dressed as a man and into men when dressed as a woman"....is that there are people who really dislike the idea as being viewed as anything but "straight".

To me it shows "possibly" a disdain for being percieved as 'gay', in either mode of gender presentation.

I think because being gay or bi-sexual for so many who are older and grew up with it being "against God" and all that other stuff makes it a reason to appear 'straight' and uphold that. .

Yes, this makes sense to me from what I've seen.


Veronica

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

When you consider that we are working with at least three independent variables - sex, gender and sexuality - the spectrum gets complex indeed.

Actually there's more like five variables:
- sex
- gender self-identity (i.e. how you see yourself)
- gender social identity (i.e. how others perceive you and what social roles you're assigned)
- sexual orientation -- I've heard a good argument that rather than hetrosexual vs. homosexual, it's more useful to think in terms of androphilic and gynophilic (attracted to males and females respectively) since that offers a more consistent way of view the sexuality of TSs -- who can be technically viewed as homosexual pre-op and hetrosexual post-op even though they're attracted to the same person throughout.
- top vs. bottom

Or why transman sociologist Aaron Devor argued for the idea of "gendered sexuality" (http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/Taxonomy.html) -- which takes into account not just the anatomical sex but also the gender identities of the people involved.

For what it's worth, actual practice in particular populations echos Devor's assertion. In the prison and immigrant populations I mentioned, you're not considered "gay" as long as you're the top -- and it's pretty common for non-Western cultures to have similar views toward t*folk. In other words, men who have sex with Thai ladyboys or the Xanith in Oman aren't considered to be homosexual. Whereas the ladyboys and Xanith -- while not considered homosexual in the Western sense -- do have lesser social status in part related to being bottoms.

(For those who get all misty-eyed about non-Western attitudes toward t*folks it's worth keeping in mind that the Xanith are by definition prostitutes and they apparently originated because Omani society decided they were a preferable means dealing with the sexuality of unmarried males than risking "despoiling" their unmarried woman.)

[Rachel Ann]

Again, well said, Marlena.

How many know that in the 1950s, many men (J. Edgar Hoover, Roy Cohn and Jack Kerouac are prominent examples) had sex with other men but did not consider themselves homosexual ("gay" was not in vogue yet) because they presented in a "manly", not "effeminate" way?

[Jenny Warren]

Oh Dear! I didn't mean for anyone to get so worked up about this.

It's just that here in the UK I know several tv's/cd's who claim to be 'Bi when dressed' and I have flatly told them that they can't put their sexual prefrences on with their bras and panties.

They say that they would only get 'intimate' with a man while en femme and NEVER want to do anything like that while in male mode.

They tend to get upset when I point out that it's more a case of they haven't yet rather than they never would.

I do feel that everyone is different and all will have different opinions, which should be respected.

Remember, EVERYONE is entitled to MY opinion. :)

Jenny

[Rachel Ann]

Oh Dear! I didn't mean for anyone to get so worked up about this. ...

I do feel that everyone is different and all will have different opinions, which should be respected.

Remember, EVERYONE is entitled to MY opinion. :)

Jenny
Well, Jenny, although I don't agree with some of what you say, I think that you did the forum a service by starting a very lively discussion!

Rachel xxx

[livy_m_b]

It's a good string, no one should be concerned that they are expressing ideas that shouldn't be expressed.

It seems like there are two basic approaches here - one approach says that hetero, gay, bi, etc. are objectively ascertainable facts - the other talks in terms of feelings and how they change depending on dressing, circumstances, etc. I'm in the latter group, btw.

But it happens that people want to mix the two categories - the first group wants to say the latter group "feels" gay, bi, etc. - and the second group wants to say the first group is either not taking their feelings into account or that the definitions used by the first group are wrong, imprecise, superseded etc.

I doubt we'll ever agree on a set of definitions, and since I'm in the second group, I don't even see much value in another round of definitional discussions. But it's still been a good discussion and not yet time to shut down.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

- sexual orientation -- I've heard a good argument that rather than hetrosexual vs. homosexual, it's more useful to think in terms of androphilic and gynophilic (attracted to males and females respectively) since that offers a more consistent way of view the sexuality of TSs -- who can be technically viewed as homosexual pre-op and hetrosexual post-op even though they're attracted to the same person throughout.

Or heterosexual pre-op and lesbian after, for those transwomen attracted to women.

Yes, this gynophilic/androphilic does make some sense doesn't it. :-)


Veronica

[JoAnnDallas]

Hummm, since I love women when in drab and also love women when enfemm, does that make me a lesbian when I am all dressed and a hetrosexual when I'm in drab??

[TGMarla]

:rolleyes:

Whatever.

[MsJanessa]

...i personally enjoy dressed up lady boys...i guess im gay but could never do it with gay that does not dress up...i still luv the girly look...it arouses me...
Me too Darling---My favorite type of partner:dom:

[Reana]

Yes, I suppose so, but only with other femme CDs, so far. That's a very nice phrase. Pithy and to the point. I, like some others here, have no interest in any form of physical interaction of this type when not totally dressed. ;)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

It's just that here in the UK I know several tv's/cd's who claim to be 'Bi when dressed' and I have flatly told them that they can't put their sexual prefrences on with their bras and panties.

They say that they would only get 'intimate' with a man while en femme and NEVER want to do anything like that while in male mode.

They tend to get upset when I point out that it's more a case of they haven't yet rather than they never would.

I agree what you're wearing doesn't change your innate sexual attractions. If you're at the exclusively hetrosexual or homosexual end of the Kinsey scale, putting on a bra and panties isn't going to suddenly change who you're attracted to.

OTOH, as Kinsey and other researchers have found, there's a lot of people on the spectrum in between the two polar opposites. So a change in context can trigger (or at least give people give themselves permission to acknowledge) desires people normally keep repressed.

In a sense, it's not that different that people who do things on spring break that they'd never consider doing at home. (For example, the AMA released study last week that found 74 percent of the young women engage in increased sex during spring break and 83 percent drink more than usual.)

[KewTnCurvy GG]

Ummm, wow! LIKE TOTAL WOW! I'm blown away sometimes at the intolerences and the homophobia here! Get a grib grrlz! Jesus H *explicative* Christ!

[KewTnCurvy GG]

So for me, the whole "bi when dressed" thing doesn't make any sense - sorry 0.02
Does it have to make sense to you for it to be real to others!?!? I'm going crazy here!

Okay, now I'll calm down, take a deep breath and assume you're not generalizing; however, why say it the way you said it if you aren't generalizing? GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[magpie]

i'm bi i`ve even gone as far as sleeping with another man well 2 anyway. not at the same time although i've never gone the whole way whith a man just played. i'm so open minded i like to try this things. i think i'm still looking for me to work out who or what i am. i do prefer women though and there clothes are so much more sensual and comfy.

[CHRISSY in LI NY]

i just love nylon and pantyhose and heels ect. (the look the feel) but i really have'nt been with anyone dressed YET (myself or them) .... i'm think i might combust if it did happen rrrrrrow lol "uh we'll take the fire proof room"