Anger :(

[xNicolex]

So I haven't posted in a while. I've been really busy, but I feel I need to address this. The word transgender, what does it mean to you? Do you identify with it? LGBT or LGBTQ? intersex, genderfluid, non-binary? Where do I fit in. Funny... I've asked myself that question my whole life, and even with all the labels we have today I still can't find the right fit. Why? LGBT is supposed to encompass us ''crossdressers'' right? Wrong! and this is why I'm angry. I've spent countless hours watching T.V documentaries and social experiments about transgender people. These shows share a common problem, they state that if your not transgender then your ''JUST A CROSSDRESSER'' I find this very upsetting :( ''Oh HE'S just a crossdresser HE hasn't had to spend years coming to terms with who HE really is, so no big deal or anything'' I am a crossdresser but I see myself just as much of a woman as any. I only spent 10 years of my life hiding from myself so yeah no biggy! :Angry3: This alienates us, I feel I have no place :( I try to just be myself and forget about the labels. But that's not enough because people don't forget as easy. Now you could argue that ''Oh but you don't identify as a female so your not trans'' well that's not good enough, who's to say who qualifies for what title, or if anyone even wants a title or label? because I don't. I just want people to respect me as I am. The information available for the trans community today is great, but the spectrum's of gender that they describe can be convoluted. I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just venting my frustration. I spent so long alone dealing with my trans issues and felt happy to find others like me through groups online, only to be told indirectly I'm not enough of a woman to qualify for your stupid labeling system. All in all I'm still quite alone :( Outside the lines of labels and theory's, gender and womanhood. I've never even met anyone like me trans,crossdresser whatever. I've reached out to some over social media groups but none wanted any kind of actual friendship, no matter how long we exchanged messages. Nobody wants to get to know me as a person, I'm always just some sexual curiosity or ''one of those ones'' I'm sorry I just feel so broken right now :(

[nameinuse]

(((hugs)))

A hug is all I can offer .. and my ears ... and maybe a shoulder. Oh! a hand stretched out in friendship

I hope someone can come along with some words to make you feel more validated

[jack-ie]

Nichole, I've been "just a crossdresser" for years. Yes, like you I sometimes feel (I think) as feminine as any but I've never had any desire to transition. However, if they feel it necessary to assign a label and can't find a place on the chart to place it, that's their problem. I'm happy just being who/what I am.

[Nikki.]

My thinking on this is only partially baked at this point...but there can be a pejorative aspect to the crossdresser label. It encompasses sexual fetishists, which is generally looked down upon in most societies, Some TS peeps hate the idea of being grouped with CIS male fetishists, which is pretty easy to understand. I think the problem is there are cis and trans cross dressers that are driven to cross gender expression, but that negative connotation follows these peeps too. Again, still trying to work this out in my head.

[IleneD]

Nicole,

Sorry to hear of your distress. Someone must have abused you in some way for being Yourself. It is a sad state of affairs, I agree. Be strong. That's why you have distant friends via this forum.

As for your primary question of crossdresser vs transgender, I am not a clinician in the psychological sciences. I barely have a grip on my own experience (even after 6 decades). I just try to keep it simple.
Examine the root of "trans-". It has Latin roots and the word or term means "across"; as in TRANSit (go across from one place to another), TRANScontinental railroad (goes across the continent), etc. Both CROSSdressers and TRANSgenders span or cross (go across) the gender spectrum. They cross the boundaries of gender. Trans = Cross. To me they are one in the same and I don't get hung up on labels.

It also makes me more comfortable realizing my real inner femme self isn't just a matter of clothing. When I bought my first dress almost 2 yrs ago and started "all out" full CD, I probably thought of myself as " just" CD. The term CD gave me cover for my real issue which was much deeper into my identity. Now, I more often identify with being transgender, at least by my own standards. To me it means there are two spirits, two forms (not two people) within me and of one person. I have a male "side" and a female side to my persona. It's almost a privilege to have the added depth of spirit that comes from having a distinct woman element.

When my wife (love her, I do) began to studying my 'problem' (crossdressing), she told me she Googled the term "men who want to be women". She didn't investigate "crossdressing" or "transgender". On her search, she received hits and links for both CD an TG; much of it educational and positively informative.

Be at peace about your journey. Nicole, you are a unique being. Few other humans possess both the male and FEMALE qualities within one body, tied to one heart. Enjoy being that person, the one you are.

[Aunt Kelly]

Nicole, you are anything but broken, my dear. Yes, it feels that way, and it's a shame that some of us under the TG umbrella would make you fell that way. It may be easy for those true transsexuals to be dismissive of anyone else as something "less than", but it is still wrong. Don't get me wrong, our TS sisters have challenges the rest of us should be glad we are not burdened with, but it's not a competition for "who suffers the most", even though there are some who seem to view it that way. All of us who are TG, and yes, I believe that "umbrella term" applies to all of us, should understand and respect each other, or differences, and our commonality.
For what it's worth, don't get too hung up on any one label. We are all different, and one label often does not really fit. Worse, some of us move back and forth on the spectrum, and while there is a label for that too, calling myself "gender fluid" doesn't seem to give much peace. So I don't expect it to. Understand that you are who you are and that is just fine. Labels be damned. Also, please know that there are people in this community that don't hold the chauvinistic views that you've had to deal with. I too wish I could give you a hug and show you that it's true.

Hugs,


Kelly

[Tracii G]

How about not worrying about all that and just be yourself?
You don't HAVE to fit any certain criteria the LGBT has to be who you are.
I never fit in any category and it drove me nuts for years so I know where you are coming from.
I found out all that LGBT,LGBTQ ,trans this and that, gender fluid,inter sexed is all BS and really means nothing who cares?
Just be yourself and do what you want to do, the heck with all the stuff you can't control its not worth worrying about.

[Dana44]

Nicole, first we are transgender. It encompass us. Now I am gender fluid and non binary. However we are transgender and not transsexual. Yes we feel like women and nobody can take that away from us. Just be happy with who you are. When I look at the pictures you have posted I see a woman. So just know that you are okay and nobody can take that away from us.

[Tracii G]

I agree with Dana

[Kas]

Hi Nicole,

I understand what you're saying but I think you are over-thinking it. IMO there are 2 types of cross dressers. One falls into the transexual category, the other falls under the transvestite category. The former, being that you like to dress like a girl because of the way it makes you feeling. For the latter, it's a purely sexual thing.

I think in the documentaries you are referring to where they say such things as "he is only a cross dresser..." Is referring to the transvestic side of things, the "seedy" side. When I look at your DP, I definitely would put you into the transexual category. That's the way I see it at least.

[GaleWarning]

As one who is also 'just a crossdresser' Nicole, let me add my bit.

I have been raging on this forum against the use of labels for years now. Labels put us in boxes. I do not belong in a box, and nor, I suspect, do you.

Be free, Nicole, and do not let others dictate who or what you are.

[Lisa85]

Transgender label does not work. trans-gender == opposite gender, i.e. the only valid approach is switching to other gender. Not applying. want to play by dressing but not switch genders. Huge difference, and since most CD don't want to be known, gets little media lines.


cross dressing kinda of works, but had huge negative connocation. It's not binary, one or the other, but a range of expressions. Fluid dressing is a better expression for me.

[bridget thronton]

I don't need a label to define myself - I have learned to do my best to accept everyone without judgement

[Teresa]

xNicolex,
This was my point some tie ago when Horizon presented a program titled ," Living as a Transgender" . The whole thing was about transition finally showing a full operation . I asked at the time who is getting this label wrong , we have a section for transsexuals in transition , we have section for the transgender dealing with the whole spectrum. So who is getting it wrong ? I would suggest the media are still working on insufficient information and guidance , the problem is they have millions of viewers and many of whom know little or nothing about the subject , the media are still guilty of misleading the general public, but then what's new about that ?

[Charlotte7]

Nicole, you're certainly not broken, you're you. You have done that most valuable thing and discovered who the real you is. It's a great thing to have, such awareness and realisation. Your journey sounds very similar to mine. I am not what many people would call trans, I have no desire to transition, but my cross dressing is there to meet the very real needs of the girl that I know is inside me and part of me. I am not all boy, I am not all girl, I am me and I have learned to be happy with that. We don't need labels to tell us who we are. I don't feel that any part of LGBTQI speaks directly to me, maybe we need to add a 'C'? But that doesn't bother me, as I said, labels are not important

As an aside I see that you are in Ireland, and I expect that (also, to some extent, depending on which part of Ireland you are) this too can bring its own problems. Irish media can be pretty strange at times, and speaking personally I don't think that things like Mrs Brown's Boys helps matters either.

((((HUGS))))

[Jodie_Lynn]

I have found the perfect label for myself, and I suspect (but could be wrong!) for ALL the members of these combined forums as well as the general public!

It is: Human Being.

Try it on for size, see how it sits on you.

;)

[GretchenM]

Nicole,
What you are feeling is the nature of this reversed gender identity phenomenon. You are not broken and your perceptions are actually right on the money. The whole subject of what constitutes transgender and cisgender and crossdresser and whatever label is a mess when it comes to classification.

Perhaps you might look at it this way. Gender forms a continuous spectrum defined by the vast number of traits and characteristics humans have. Most of us have most of the traits to some extent or other. But the formulas that could, with great difficulty, be devised to describe us are unique to each of us. Even the gender reversal trait is present in cisgender people. Males always have a feminine side and females always have a masculine side. In cisgender people though those sides are small. So, what is cisgender? It is a person who self identifies in a way that is parallel with their sex. What is the key word in that definition? "Self identifies." In other words, all the other categories in the many classifications are based on the diversity of how people view themselves, how they identify. That also means there probably are no clear definitions based on boundaries that are easily found.

Imagine you have a piece of yarn 100 meters long (about 300 feet) that represents gender identity in humans. To portray that representation the yarn is multicolored. But all the colors perfectly blend from one to the next one. The white portion is bounded by blue on one side and red on the other side. But the transition from blue to white is so gradual you really can't tell where blue is no longer in the color and there is only white. On the other side, you are not sure where the white starts getting oh so slightly pink.

Five people try to tell where the yarn is white by drawing a fine line exactly where they think it is white. They all come up with different places. They are close to each other, but none of the lines are in the same place. Then they have to identify where the yarn is half blue and half white as well as half white and half red. Same thing happens. The point is, when you have continuous variation and that variation is vastly more complex than our multicolored yarn, nobody is sure where the boundaries between the precise gender traits and characteristics exist. And maybe there aren't any boundaries at all. But we still need to classify things so we can talk about them. Unfortunately, nobody can agree on where to put the boundary because, like the yarn, it is a continuum based on many, many traits and characteristics.

The point is, to avoid this perplexing classification for you personally you need to recognize that the population of all humans really cannot be divided into units that have clear boundaries. The boundaries we set are based on certain criteria that tend to ignore other criteria that are perfectly valid and cross those boundaries. So, if one looks at all criteria the boundaries vanish. Therefore, any individual on that continuum becomes unique and can only be classified if one selects only part of the total array of traits and characteristics. In short, within the population of all people and all traits and characteristics you are you and I am me. We can each be classified, but the classification system itself is artificial. We do the same thing with human races. We select certain criteria and define on those criteria as if those criteria represent the total spectrum of human variation. Many times now it has been shown that biologically our species is devoid of races. We form a continuum genetically and our races are defined in a way that does not actually exist except if we are discriminating with regard to the criteria.

We do the same thing with gender, political affiliation, and so many other things. So, as others have said, if you want to be consistent with who you are then be yourself and forget about the classification. How do you know what that is? You can use comfort as a measure. If you are comfortable doing this or that or something else then you are close to where you currently are on the vast array of traits and characteristics. But we are not static. What is good today may not be quite as comfortable tomorrow. Or it may be even more comfortable tomorrow. For the individual there is no set place. We change. We all change. The fences aren't really there. We sometimes just act like they are there.

The classification of gender forms is actually quite useful, but, like race, if you use it for purposes it was not designed for or in other improper ways that classification can cause lots of personal and social problems. In my opinion, your "anger" is mainly reaching a point where you have come to realize that gender is like the multicolored strand of yarn. There is no way to actually tell where one form ends and another begins. And you will drive yourself nuts trying to figure that out because, very likely, there are no boundaries. There is just continuous variation with an artificial and completely synthetic classification imposed on it for one purpose - so we can talk about it using a language that demands we find boundaries for everything, even when there are no boundaries.

Gretchen

[Krisi]

I am a crossdresser. A male, straight crossdresser. I am not trans anything, not "LGBT", not "non-binary", nothing but a straight male who dresses as a woman from time to time. Some people, including some members here, seem to think I'm something more. Some even try to tell me I'm something more and want to enforce their definitions on me. Make me into something I am not.

You know what? To hell with them! They are nothing more than a stranger on the Internet. They don't know me and I don't know them.

So xNicolex (and everybody else), You know you better than anyone. Don't worry about other people or what other people think you are. Ignore them or set them straight, your choice. Enjoy life on your own terms.

[sara66]

Dido to Krisi. I could not have said it better.
Sara

[Pat]

It seems to me there are two kinds of "just a crossdresser." They are distinguished by who is speaking. In one case a person says "I AM a crossdresser" and I take that person at their word. That label is a good label because the person can use it to describe themselves succinctly and to compare themselves to others who also claim that label to see how they are alike and how they are different. The second case is when a person says "He is a crossdresser." (presuming they're not repeating what the subject told them) and in that case that's an improper use of a label. You can't decide for someone else what their identity is. And I think that's what you're railing against.

To get to your questions:



The word transgender, what does it mean to you? Do you identify with it? LGBT or LGBTQ? intersex, genderfluid, non-binary?

I take a very minimalist approach to definitions -- to me, transgender simply means "not cisgender" and that is the reason the word was coined. It describes the case where a person's sense of gender is not aligned with their sex. (Please note it does not imply they identify as an "opposite" sex. It just means the person does not identify with their own sex.)


Where do I fit in.

I can't know. Where do you fit in? You have to figure that out. And you have to tell people if you want them to know. And you have to remain steadfast in the face of resistance and you have to remain flexible in the face of new information.

I came to this forum thinking I was "just a crossdresser." I honestly did. As I processed the information I found here, I realized I wasn't. Today I believe I'm a transgender person who is non-binary and is, in fact, a third gender as yet unnamed in our culture. And I'll explain that until your ears bleed and your eyes glaze over. But there's always the chance that next year I'll find new information and decide I'm TS. The point is, whatever I am, I've been that all my life. And as I get closer and closer to figuring out what I am, my words may change. I may take on a new label. But I will always resist having one put on me. ;)

[Princess Chantal]

Krisi is absolutely correct. Eventhough I do fit in the LGBT community due to my sexual identity (pansexual) and relationship with my life partner, my crossdressing has nothing to do with my gender or even expression of my gender. People in the trans community have tried their darnest to make me more than I am. Those that are close to me - my partner, my family, and my close friends- see that my crossdressing has nothing to do with gender or expression of. While acquaintances within the trans community just don’t understand or even want to.

[ginapoodle]

Many questions, all excellent. We all have our own answers, or partial answers, or mysteries.

Respect yourself above all else. You are unique and valuable to the Universe.

blessings...

[Jayne44C]

I'm sorry to hear you are in a bad place right now Nicole. I think we all have had our bad times, though on different levels and with different reasons. I don't think of my self as Transgender because I'm not looking to live full-time or transition for that matter. So I don't take offense to the term Crossdresser. What I do take offense to, as you allude to, is how the term is applied or the tone which it's used. I acknowledge differences between all of 'us' however when people have an air of superiority or entitlement because of who they are vs who I am....there's an issue!

I viewed your IG page and let me say you do inspire! Just by being you, doing your thing as an MUA and putting yourself out there for all to see. Just be you girl, just be you! I hope this period you're experiencing ends soon. I've been in some bad places myself and regret the wasted time being there. Good luck going forward and anyone not supportive in your life or anywhere, put 'em blast!

[Shelly Preston]

There is I would suggest no such thing as "Just A Crossdresser"

We are all complex individuals in which cross dressing plays a part (its different if you are transitioning).

As has been said the media is there to sell stories and do not always get things accurate. Who can blame them. We have such a wide spectrum of people that one size does not fit all.

The only label you should have is one that you choose to give yourself.

I am sorry to hear you have had trouble making friends. :hugs:

[Nikki.]

Nicole, I struggle with the "what am I" question. A lot. Working through that question is top of my list. So this is currently where I'm at.

1. I have mental discomfort living in my gender role. I would prefer to live as a female. Maybe full time, maybe not. This is gender dysphoria in very simple terms. Pat mentioned the other day Anne Vitale's alternative definition "Gender Expression Deprivation Anxiety Disorder", which I also think fits.

2. In my way of thinking, #1 defines me as some flavor of TG under the umbrella. This is different but not better or worse than a cis gendered crossdresser or a TG crossdresser.

3. I go out presenting in my preferred gender sometimes, that of a woman. Does that make me a crossdresser? I think maybe not, since I'm wearing clothes of my preferred gender when I do so. But 99% of the world would think so.

4. While I have GD thoughts most of the time that cause me distress, for the most part, they don't interfere with carrying out normal life. Once in a while I have a bad day or two. Once in a while it's not on my mind. Kind of a low level funk. It is seeming to slightly worsen over time. See my analogy in the TG section if you care.

5. Since the GD isn't disabling, I've never been convinced I was a woman, only wanted to be one and I can function pretending to be guy, TS is probably not the right label at this time. Like Pat, I'm on a journey. New information, self discovery or revelations might occur which cause this to change. It's likely I will seek some level of medical intervention, I do have some feature related dysphoria.

6. As result, I'm on a slow paced journey. There's no urgency. Like Caine wandering through the old west in Kung Fu*, final destination unknown. I do know some of the places I'm going to visit, which may change the trip to change.

So, as a result, I define myself as Trans. If someone needs more I smile and say Transsomething. Good luck, and peace on your journey.




* apologies to those under 45 or so years old, or outside the US that likely never watched a great TV show.

[Stephanie47]

I totally dislike any word which attempts to place any person in a box. Square peg in a round hole and all that rubbish. The same word can means totally different things to different people. For decades I thought "transgender" = "transsexual." And "transsexual" meant a person "trapped" or born into the wrong body. Now there are so many words thrown out there. To me they are worthless.

Me? I am a man with all the male equipment. I have lived my life as a man. I am comfortable being a man. I also for some reason feel the need to wear women's clothing. It goes further than just wearing women's clothing. It's wearing dresses, hosiery and heels, all the proper undergarments. No pants. No jeans.

If you get into a discussion with a person about your lifestyle I recommend forget the label and talk in sentences and paragraphs to explain yourself. Forget the one word answers. Every person is unique.

[Lana Mae]

I am a crossdresser with some gender disphoria! But instead of all the labels, I am me! Simple little label-me! Male or female, I am me! That is the only label anyone needs! I have been actually dressing for only 2 years! In those two years I have learned a lot! The most important is to just be me! No label will fit you except what you apply to yourself! Best wishes for peace on your journey! Hugs Lana Mae (Note: I type hugs on every response as that person may need one or I may need one!)

[Sarah Doepner]

Nicole,

I'm with you on the "Just a Crossdresser" label. It is dismissive and attempts to diminish the struggles and challenges that person faces. The person using that term may be struggling and facing challenges as well and they may be complex and life changing, but there is no need to belittle someone else because their challenges aren't yours.

The other issue I have with that is the vast majority of transsexuals didn't automatically move from "gosh I'm attracted to feminine things" to "I think I'm going to transition" in one simple step. They spent time taking hundreds, maybe thousands of small steps forward and often retreating backward and spending time as crossdressers before discovering that wasn't enough to meet their gender identity needs. There is no excuse for the attitude that seems to exist suggesting that crossdressers are somehow lesser beings in the Trans+ community. They are probably the vast majority, but without the kind of generally positive media attention that has recently come to support those making transition.

None of us are broken because we wear crossgender clothing. We are individuals with our own needs and struggles. When we don't find the support we need it becomes a world that in some ways attempts to break us. And that is the problem I see in all of this, there seems to be a willingness on the part of those who do not share or do not want to understand us to either break us or allow us to become broken. We need to continue to support one another, regardless of where we are on our journey. This doesn't mean we should not be honest, because that is equally important and can help avoid situations that could result in very negative outcomes.

[docrobbysherry]

At least 1/2 r CD's! Men who dress up as women with no intention of transitioning. And, a great many r closet dressers like me. No one, except for their immediate family, knows they dress. Go to T events around the nation as I have. Meet other dressers and you'll find others like u!:battingeyelashes:

I'll grant that TS's feel they r women in the wrong bodies. But, I'll argue that SOME other trans who claim to "feel like women" may feel "different" but may not know exactly what they r feeling. Because never being women, how can they be sure what being one feels like?

And, have any of us NOT felt feminine at one time or another? I think very few dressers here could claim that!:straightface:

Even us "fetish dressers", where sex is an important component of our dressing, r not simply men who dress up to get off. As I've discovered, its WAY more complicated then that!:eek:

I think of it this way, Nicole: Yes, we're all different here but we all have something in common, too.
For whatever reason(s), we all enjoy women's things!:hugs:

[LilSissyStevie]

There is no reason to get too upset about what the entity I call the Transgender Borg says or doesn't say. They have their political agenda and feel the need to sweep as many people as they can under the "TG umbrella" to make themselves seem bigger than they really are. Once you assume the identity you find there are a bunch of rules you then have to follow. I'm not too good at rule following. If you cannot or will not submit to the preferred ideological construct, you must be excluded. Count yourself lucky. Good luck to the TG Borg but I've realized it has nothing to do with me. I'm a crossdresser but not because it's an identity. It's just something I do. I don't have a "gender identity" either. It's a way to actualize the feminization fantasies I find sexually arousing. I can indulge these fantasies without CDing, but it's just more fun when I do. Having this unusual sexuality has caused me some pain and confusion (Am I gay? Am I trans? blah, blah!) It tends to wreck my sexual relationships with women. So, it's a bit annoying when something that has caused me so much trouble is dismissed as "just a fetish." But, really, what does it matter what they think? It doesn't affect my life one way or the other.

[Alice B]

I do not give a "hoot" about labels and what I am supposed to be. I just enjoy dressing and the only thing that makes ne angry is when I plan on dressing and something happens that prevents it

[Majella St Gerard]

Well, I'm just a crossdresser. It's my label for myself. I don't let other people put a label on me. Some trans-women have an attitude about how other "trans" people should act and present as some CD's that are on this site. Everyone has something to say, you should do this, you should dress this way. To hell with them, just be you and wear your own label.

[Beverley Sims]

If someone thinks they are holier than thou, meaning they are of better stock, just don't associate with them.

I met someone in Seattle about six years ago that conveyed that attitude, when they found out it might be an advantage to associate with me they apologised profusely.

Sorry! Too late.

I have met others that have only had a few months experience and it has been a pleasure to swap ideas and pass on my own sage advice, for what it is worth.

Some of those transitioning have a myriad of psychological problems and do lose sight of those not so far down the track.

Sad really.

[Kayliedaskope]

Labels are only necessary on retail store shelves.


I don't have a label (unless it's a designer one on my clothing ;p ). I am simply a guy that occasionally likes to wear female clothing. I don't pass, I don't try to, although after seeing so many beautiful ladies here, I wish I could. I'm ... just trying to be the best me I can be, no matter what I'm wearing.

Nicole, I'm here, and I like meeting new people and making new friends, no matter where they are or what gender expression they use for themselves. When you stop looking at WHAT a person is, you begin to see WHO that person is.

[FeWill]

Nicole,

I agree with you completely on your thoughts. I remember in college before transgender was getting so much media I had a class that dealt with social norms and we had a chapter on transgender and all the relatable topics. Back then there were only a couple definitions for men in women's clothes and I find it useful still. The book we read identified: 1) crossdressers, 2) transvestites, and 3) transsexuals. The book defined a man dressing in women's clothes for sexual thrill or general desire as a crossdresser (be it complete or not). This person was someone who acts as himself while dressed. The book then defined transvestite as a man dressing up as a woman completely and pretending to be a woman (mannerisms, etc); however, they can undress and will be male again like nothing happened. Then they defined transsexual as a male that lives or desires to live as a woman. One who seeks surgery in anyform.
One of the main points that was interesting was that transvestites happen to conflict society more because they go back and forth between male and female.
I would see myself somewhere between CD and TV.

[mykell]

http://www.teni.ie/support.aspx

hi nicole, you look fairly youthful, sometimes you have to get off the web, meet folks in person.....leap of faith, intimidating sure, i went to a local p-flag organization my first time as male, kinda cased the joint to see how safe it was....the next visit i went all done up, they asked if it was my first time, no was here last month, voice gave me away.

anyhow, i get around fairly easy these days, my last meeting the younger trans folks were throwing around another term ive never heard off....so keep your head up and accept that you accept yourself, im not the same person that i was when i arrived here....its a marathon, just enjoy it for what it is now for yourself.

so if you get out there and meet folks face to face i think once you meet someone like yourself the chips will fall into place, even talking with other folks from the LGBT spectrum you'd be surprised how much in common we share,

hope this was helpful....

[susan54]

No one should feel they are "just" anything. Love the way you are and be proud. I am a crossdresser. This is a Forum for crossdressers yet on this very Forum I have been shouted down for denying that I am transgender. I am not transgender - I am male, even when I am completely dressed in women's clothes, wig and make-up in public. It is called ACTING - I do not for a second imagine I really am a woman but pretending to be one is fun. For me it is not sexual but it is compulsive - but at home I do not bother with the make-up or the wig - they, like the name, are for others - other people find it easier if you go some way to meeting their expectations. Often they assume you want to be a woman because they only read about transgender or transsexual people - we crossdressers get very little coverage. If you go out dressed like this you need to use a woman's name as using a male one will seem odder than dressing like a woman. The same goes for toilets - use the Ladies. If I must have a label I will choose my own - I am a gender tourist. I am like a Brit who loves going to France, eating French food, dressing in French clothes, speaking French and even using French body language - and being happy if anyone thinks I really am French. At no stage do I think I actually am French, nor do I want to live there permanently or become a French citizen. As a gender tourist I temporarily enjoy the aspects of women's lives I like - the clothes and how I look , and I have not had to endure years of being bombarded with messages that I am inferior or being patronised (or worse) by men. I get the good bits. I love being a man but I love dressing like a woman - and I remain a man in my own mind when so dressed. I will not be told by anyone that there is something else involved and I will reject any transgender label applied to me. Everyone on this Forum should have the confidence to be the person THEY want to be, not what others on this Forum decree you should be. A bit more support and a bit less criticism of fellow Forum members would be good.

[Jenny22]

Interesting post and responses, and a new label: "Gender Tourist." (Thanks, Susan).

xNicolex closed her post with:"I'm not enough of a woman to qualify for your stupid labeling system. All in all I'm still quite alone Outside the lines of labels and theory's, gender and womanhood. I've never even met anyone like me trans,crossdresser whatever. I've reached out to some over social media groups but none wanted any kind of actual friendship, no matter how long we exchanged messages. Nobody wants to get to know me as a person, I'm always just some sexual curiosity or ''one of those ones'' I'm sorry I just feel so broken right now."

Though I'm some 8,000 miles away, I'd love to be your friend! PM me anytime you wish. I sorta know how you are feeling. Those of you in Ireland and the UK, DO reach out to this sister, please!

WE didn't invent the labels. Thank the psycho-professionals for them, though one or more were probably picked up from persons in our culture. Personally, IMO, the TG grouping fits all of us that aren't TS or CDs who have NEVER had a female type thought while dressed. I don't mind the TG label at all.

[Nikki A.]

Nicole, you're not alone. There are plenty of us who may have a foot in each of "labels" but not fully defined in any. As for me I know I'm under the TG umbrella but after that I am somewhere in between the labels.
The only one you need to be true to to be happy is yourself. I don't care for labels, I'm me, I accept me, and I'm happy being me. People will see the true you and accept you as long as you accept yourself.
As an aside in looking at your pictures you are a truly attractive lass. I wish I looked 1/10 as good as you.

[Trione]

I just enjoy the feel of woman clothes, I could never pass (short beard) but wish I could go out somewhere as a MIAD. Enjoy what you enjoy and lets others ruin themselves in their dislikes.

[xNicolex]

Thanks girls for all your kind replies :) I honestly didn't expect such a big response, but I'm happy to see that my opinion is valid in the sense that I'm not the only one thinking this way. I guess my take from reading all your replies is this, I will try to no longer worry so much about the labels that binned me but, just try to be the best version of myself as I can be :) Forget the haters and discriminators and just be extra AF :)

[Jean 103]

Nicole, I'm one that really doesn't fit into these boxes. I've been called gender fluid, at the time I didn't know what it ment. I live as Jean a transgender person. I like this as it implies that this isn't just some hobby, it's my life. I live in the real world among everyday people. I've met a few trans people but I don't really feel that I'm one of them. I use the term with people as I believe it is easier for them to understand. I've attended a local transgender support group, i feel like an outsider there because I'm not planning on having any operations. They are all very nice there its just me. To my friends I'm just Jean. No need for lables.

[ellbee]

I've used that phrase "just a crossdresser" here on this forum a few times.

But when I have, I was coming from this mind-set...


From what I know, there's a decent chunk of CD'ers out there (perhaps not on this forum) who simply have a very small "stash" of, say, pantyhose & heels. Heck, they probably don't shave their legs, for that matter.

And what they'll do is throw them on every now & then, in private, do their "man business," then take them off & put them away for another time. It's basically their guilty little sexual secret. Perhaps they "hate" themselves afterward, and maybe even purge once in a while because they feel like they need to stop this little addiction of theirs, perhaps believing that it's "wrong" or "gay." And they don't want anyone to ever find out about it. However, it adds a whole new heightened dimension to their thrill, and it definitely feels oh-so-good. And that's all they do. They are crossdressing -- but in a much different way than quite a few here.

They are *not* going further down the rabbit-hole of a whole female presentation. They don't have a female name for themselves. They aren't registered members of a CD forum, with hundreds of posts under their belt. They don't have the need or desire. For them, it's simply all about a couple key articles of clothing, and the sexual release.


Now, compare that to many of the most-active members here. Are these CD'ers, as I described above, the same as you, or her, or her? No.

Of course, that doesn't mean that their struggle isn't just as real or difficult, either. It is... Just in different ways for them.


I don't know in what context these shows or whatever used this phrase "just a crossdresser," but when *I've* used it, anyway, the above is what I was thinking at the time. Perhaps it's something similar for them? :strugglin

[CynthiaD]

Saying you're "just a crossdresser" is just like saying you're "just a billionaire." Crossdressing is cool. Crossdressing is something to be proud of. It doesn't matter why we do it or how often, we're not broken. We're the lucky ones. So, be strong, be happy, be proud, and keep wearing your pretty clothes.

[Krisi]

There is I would suggest no such thing as "Just A Crossdresser"................ :
Well, I would agree with that statement in that we are also golfers, fishermen, electricians, plumbers, etc. However, in the context of this forum and people who post here, there is a thought among some that any male who ever pulls on a pair of panties will eventually have surgery and live as a woman. There's even a joke along those lines.

I think if a person says "I am just a crossdresser", he means that he is not headed towards transition and has no gender confusion or any of the other conditions often mentioned on this forum. He wears women's clothes or dresses as a woman from time to time and that's all there is.

[susan54]

I am getting tired of being told my gender perception wrong. We would not tolerate any posting that suggested that anyone on this Forum wasn't really a woman just because they think they are. Yet if I say I am man and am not transgender just because I crossdress I am repeatedly told I am wrong. Not acceptable. My gender perception, not anyone else's.

[Krisi]

Yes and we should correct those people. Repeatedly if necessary. We don't have to sit around and be insulted.

[Ressie]

It's true the CDs don't have the same problems as TS. And I can see where some transexuals feel that crosdressers are in a different league. It seems odd that both groups wear women's clothes and many common folks don't know the difference. We are very different as far as the reason we wear women's cloths if you look at extremes of both categories. But there's a middle ground too IMO.

[AllieSF]

Susan54,

In order to try to bring some uniformity to some definitions on this site, the site has defined usage that states that Transgender is the umbrella term for everyone from crossdresser to post-op transsexual. Has the site revised that definition? All the rest of the terms, crossdresser, transvestite, non-binary, gender fluid, transsexual and so on fall under that umbrella. Now, some accept those definitions here for simplicity sake realizing that the individual meanings for each individual range all over the place. Just look at all the label threads here. When I use the term "transgender" in a post here I usually also say that it is used as the "umbrella version".

What people in the outside world think depends on their personal exposure to the many varieties of us and the terms they have heard used to describe us. With all the recent news in the last couple of years or so, Caitlyn Jenner, people in the military, playboy cover girls, award winning actors, movie and television roles, and so on, the shortened "Trans" has taken on a more specific meaning, non-binary and transexual, than it used to, umbrella.

I personally prefer the umbrella terminology because it simplifies communication in general. For some specific topics, I see no reason why someone should not use their own definition (please define it as you see it when used).No one is forcing anyone to accept a definition they do not like. We, some of us, just want to use a term without a long list of qualifiers after that term in every post we make! It does get super confusing and cumbersome to reply to a thread if we start to worry about how every individual defines the term for themselves.

[Pat]

Yet if I say I am man and am not transgender just because I crossdress I am repeatedly told I am wrong. Not acceptable. My gender perception, not anyone else's.


Yes and we should correct those people. Repeatedly if necessary. We don't have to sit around and be insulted.

If someone is insulting, report the post (triangle icon at the bottom of the post) and the moderators will swoop in and edit or delete, issue infractions, whatever is appropriate. But if someone asks for your reasoning, or states their reasoning for their own self-assessment that is different than yours, I believe that is just discussion which is what this site is about. Nobody can dictate what you believe about yourself. But discussion is OK.

[SuzyZahn]

What I feel is we`re the `ugly` GF that no group seems to want or embrace? In a nutshell?

[mykell]

Yes and we should correct those people. Repeatedly if necessary. We don't have to sit around and be insulted.


and visa versa....

[Rianna Humble]

in the context of this forum and people who post here, there is a thought among some that any male who ever pulls on a pair of panties will eventually have surgery and live as a woman. There's even a joke along those lines.
In my opinion that is a gross misrepresentation. There are a few people who having started by cross-dressing will later go on to address their Gender Dysphoria. The so-called joke is a way of mocking those members.

However, when you interact with any group of people it is better to try to understand how they use certain phrases than to expect the majority to accept your own (entirely different) definition. That is true whether you are talking to plumbers and want to redefine the tools of their trade, or to IT staff, or to cross-dressers.


if I say I am man and am not transgender just because I crossdress I am repeatedly told I am wrong. Not acceptable.

Yes and we should correct those people. Repeatedly if necessary.

There are published definitions of how certain words are used in the context of these forums, whilst you are free to hold an alternate position on the use of those words in your private life, there is nothing to be gained by insisting that your alternate definition should be accepted by the whole group. WOuld you castigate the authors of a dictionary just because you didn't want to accept their definition?

[susan54]

I could find no definitions as used by the Forums, so I looked up the ultimate source of definitions - the Oxford English Dictionary - the standard dictionary of the English language. It defines transgender as "Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex". As my personal identity at no point departs from my birth sex I am not transgender. If the OED says that, any other definition is in Humpty Dumpty territory where you can invent your own definitions - that does not mean they apply to other people.

My complaint here is that even if other people want to use different definitions, I object to them being imposed on me. Dressing as a beetle does not make you a beetle. Women who find their partners are cross-dressing are often traumatised. From her point of view there is a yawning gulf between thinking her husband likes to wear a dress and thinking her husband wants to be a woman. He claims he doesn't want to be a woman - he is just a crossdresser. So she searches on line for crossdressing and finds this forum. I mean that's what they're called - they must know what they are talking about. This forum insists that crossdressers are all transgender so she looks that up and sees that it means he has a female gender identity so he must be lying. Thanks for that. She looks a bit more at the site and finds that this Forum, called (remember) crossdressers.com, includes people taking hormones or have even completed their transition as well as people who dress as women and then want to attract men ... but hardly any mention of men who are 'just' crossdressing (apart from denial of their existence) on a site called what he says he is. Now she is really scared.

We are a cross-dressing Forum which appears to be intolerant of cross-dressing for its own sake as opposed to gender identity. We do not exist. I cross clothing conventions but my identity does not cross anything gender-related so my dressing is not cross (trans) gender. I say again that clothes do not have gender, people do. Cross-dressing does NOT equate to cross-gender. Those who insist it does do not just have a different opinion - in linguistic terms they are wrong, which is not the same as having a different opinion. I am mystified why there is such insistence on making crossdressers transgender - why does this matter to you to the extent you want to overrule those affected by this?

The threads on this topic make it clear I am not alone. This Forum is not called crossgender it is called crossdressing - how bizarre that it absolutely insists on confusing the two. There is no place here for those of us who are just into the crossdressing despite the site's title. The transitioning TG members tell us they are not crossdressing - they are dressing appropriately. So they are not crossdressing yet they are on a crossdressing forum - where they are not only tolerated but welcomed whereas we who are actually 'just' crossdressing are not even recognised or tolerated as a valid category - you insist we are something else entirely! The word Transvestite is linguistically more correct than Transgender in describing cross-dressers but most of us hate it - I know I do. I do not hate the word transgender I just do not want it applied to me for the simple reason that it doesn't.

I am not 'out'. Currently if my crossdressing is revealed people will assume I want to be a woman. Nothing wrong with wanting to be a woman but I don't. I think the impact on my friends and colleagues (and thus on me) would be considerably reduced if there was more (any?) recognition of the existence of men who 'just' like dressing as women for its own sake rather than because of gender issues. Currently the existence of such a category is invisible so for most it does not exist. With such invisibility it is hardly surprising that society does not distinguish between crossdressing and crossgender, but a web site CALLED crossdressers.com - come on! We expect better.

[Krisi]

Susan, Sadly, your post sums it up pretty well.

[Pat]

Susan -- You are totally entitled to define yourself. Just as everyone here is. If anyone posts a message that explicitly says you're wrong in your self-assessment, report the post and the moderators will handle it. If you object to the fact that they post philosophical thoughts that don't align to your views, go read another thread or bring some evidence and engage in discussion. But you don't get to impose your definition on anyone else either, and that's what it really sounds like you're doing when you rail on about the makeup of the crossdresser's forum not conforming to your definition of crossdressing. Reasonable people can disagree. Be one of them.

[mykell]

i did a web search for "transgender" and wiki topped the list....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

i preformed a google search for "phobia".... " wiki" was third on the list....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

ive always felt comfortable here however ive claimed to identify here for the most part,
when folks are adamant to profess theyre sexuality and gender when the topic comes up it confuses me, they dont like labels but are now stipulating to be part of a sub-category of a label, "hetero crossdresser" "bi curious when dressed crossdresser" "manly man crossdressers" ect..

some will covet for the day they can leave the confines of the "closet", others boast of how they "pass" in the wild, some assure us we can all venture into the land of the "Normals" as long as we fit theyre standards, but at the end of the day we all have a commonality, we deviate from what society in general considers "Normal" gender expression....

for me it feels nice to belong to a group, a family so to say....their will always be divisiveness, turmoil, pettiness in families....but at the end of the day family comes first, family has your back.....why fight our battles alone when we are part of a community, an LGB"T" community and the benefits it will afford us.

my opinion....yours may differ.....something to think about over coffee.....

and when our GFs, SOs, Friends and family google transgender they will see we are part of a broad group....a community....

here is what i found when i web searched "crossdresser"

https://www.google.com/search?q=crossdresser&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX84SqhKXXAhVLMSYKHRcOC4QQ_AUICSgA&biw=1280&bih=639&dpr=1
(https://www.google.com/search?q=crossdresser&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX84SqhKXXAhVLMSYKHRcOC4QQ_AUICSgA&biw=1280&bih=639&dpr=1)
click on the instagram listing....

[Pat]

Mykell -- I'm not clear on why you have the search for "phobia." Could you explain the point you're trying to make? I can figure out why you chose "transgender" (dueling definitions.) And I presume the web search for "crossdresser" was to illustrate the breadth of the community.

[Rianna Humble]

I could find no definitions as used by the Forums
You don't need to look very far, they are a sticky note in the Introductions and Reintroductions section.



If the OED says that, any other definition is in Humpty Dumpty territory where you can invent your own definitions

They are community definitions. Your anger appears to be directed at everyone who agrees to use those definitions to interact with people in this community.

Incidentally, have you ever considered how language evolves? This happens by people using terms in a specific manner whether or not the dictionary defines them in another context.

i did a web search for "transgender" and wiki topped the list....
Did you do a search on crossdressers.com? If so you would have found this thread: https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions-and-Abbreviations

[Aunt Kelly]

It took longer than I thought, but we have arrived at the point in every thread about labels where we start bickering over what each one means. Before I leave in fatigued dismay (again) I'll lob my two cents into the fray...

Susan, the term "transgender" has a conventional meaning in the community. It is not the one the OED seems to provide. It is a mistake to be so pedantic, leaning on one, rather out of step authority. The fact of the matter is that, according to American Psychiatric Association, crossdressing is a form of "gender expression" placing it under the umbrella provided by even the narrow definition you cited.

My point is (again) that the complaint the OP came here with, and the contention that has arisen since then (predictably, in the latter case) stems from a self-centered view of others; "If you don't fit my definition of <insert label here> your're <insert some other label here>. All too often, that view is expressed with derogatory tone or context. We should stop doing that.

[mykell]

Mykell -- I'm not clear on why you have the search for "phobia." Could you explain the point you're trying to make? I can figure out why you chose "transgender" (dueling definitions.) And I presume the web search for "crossdresser" was to illustrate the breadth of the community.

Social phobia, when the situation is feared as the person is worried about others judging them. so it seemed some are concerned with guilt by association....i feel no matter how you define your "self" we are stronger if we show solidarity in numbers....i have learned to favor inclusion for this reason, i dont feel superior or judge anyone as being less significant if they dont define the way i may but feel we have a better voice (safety) if we unite with each other...


I could find no definitions as used by the Forums, so I looked up the ultimate source of definitions - the Oxford English Dictionary - the standard dictionary of the English language.

i have seen that link Rianna, but today most will look up info on the interweb and i wanted to point out that standards of the past are becoming less relevant, does not make it wrong....we just have many more resources for friends and family and loved ones to go to which is what seemed to drive some folks objections to standing under the umbrella with us. so unfortunately crossdressers.com will not be theyre first choice....

hope i cleared up what i failed to convey previously....just wanted to point out how creepy and devious some info on the web portrays us....

[Teresa]

Susan,
Why don't you look at it as the name above the shop says ," Crossdressers.com " but when you enter the shop it has many more departments to cater for different customers needs, you only need to visit the counter that sells your goods , you have that choice, other customers or SAs (Mods ) may suggest other departments but it they don't fit your needs you can walk away .

The important point is you live in a free country with free speech, you can visit the forum freely to give and take help and information. Some countries don't allow their population the same free choices

The point about wives/partners coming here are offered their own help section where they can clear up points about their CDing partners , no matter where they are in the CDing/TG spectrum. We are all very lucky having this freedom and a fantastic forum to help us along the road .

[ellbee]

Can one honestly find what a CD'er can go through as trivial?


Yes, I suppose experiencing a pervasive sense of embarrassment/shame/guilt, even to the point of hating one's self, is "trivial."

I suppose being a prisoner in one's own home, locked away in a room behind drawn curtains, because one's wife doesn't like it/know about it, is "trivial."

I suppose spending most of one's days SO-less & alone, because the GG's one tries to date run fast in the other direction once they learn one is a CD'er, is "trivial."

I suppose being belittled, harassed, threatened, beat up & even ostracized, is "trivial."

I suppose having one's wife filing for divorce, and going through with it, partly or solely because of one's CD'ing, is "trivial."

And I suppose one implying seriously contemplating suicide, is "trivial."


Because I have seen all of that here on this forum, and more, in my relatively short time here, as it pertains to CD'ers.

And that kind of stuff is a huge deal, at least in my book.


One also needs to keep in mind that if any given CD'er "ramps up" their activity in terms of frequency & degree & openness -- you know, perhaps like a TS would need to do? :strugglin --, I can guarantee that the CD'er would see a whole lot more of above.


Of course, I won't mention the fact that a number of TS's do actually experience a pretty positive outcome, without losing many, if any, friends, family members, jobs & SO's.


Anyway, I believe the OP has a valid right in feeling angry, frustrated, misunderstood, etc.

[Ressie]

Nicole, you have to understand that the documentaries you're watching are conveying opinions by only a few people. The TS on these shows are venting how they feel without trying to understand how CDs feel.

I've hung out with mixed groups on many occasions face to face with TS, CDs and drag queens and there isn't any of this bickering going on in the real world.

Maybe we're all much more civil in the real world of support groups and TG get togethers. Or maybe your experiences have been much different than mine.

You say you've never met other TG folks and it sounds like there may be more paranoia in Ireland than there is in my area, or there's a lack of someone taking the initiative to get TG groups together.

You would be totally welcome in the circles that I've been in for the last 5 years. The only exception would be some gays that look down on all TG people.

[docrobbysherry]

It COULD be worse Susan. U could be a "fetish" CD like me. And, have to deal with THIS!:doh:

I've used that phrase "just a crossdresser" here on this forum a few times.
But when I have, I was coming from this mind-set...
From what I know, there's a decent chunk of CD'ers out there (perhaps not on this forum) who simply have a very small "stash" of, say, pantyhose & heels. Heck, they probably don't shave their legs, for that matter.

And what they'll do is throw them on every now & then, in private, do their "man business," then take them off & put them away for another time. It's basically their guilty little sexual secret. Perhaps they "hate" themselves afterward, and maybe even purge once in a while because they feel like they need to stop this little addiction of theirs, perhaps believing that it's "wrong" or "gay." And they don't want anyone to ever find out about it. However, it adds a whole new heightened dimension to their thrill, and it definitely feels oh-so-good. And that's all they do. They are crossdressing -- but in a much different way than quite a few here.

They are *not* going further down the rabbit-hole of a whole female presentation. They don't have a female name for themselves. They aren't registered members of a CD forum, with hundreds of posts under their belt. They don't have the need or desire. For them, it's simply all about a couple key articles of clothing, and the sexual release.----------------------------

[patti1569]

I totally feel what you are saying. I do identify as transgender because I love to present as female, but could best be described as a crossdresser. Although I struggle with the terms because I don’t FEEL exactly as the terms are defined. Not sure if that makes sense, but yes, I too don’t feel like I fit into any of the nice boxes.

[Jean 103]

Susan, from where I sit there are more people like you on this site then like me. The way I see it you and Sherry are more alike than sherry and me. Basically straight men wearing women's clothes, at least in this section. You don't like a label, fine I get that. To think that you are a minority on this site I don't get. The way you feel is how you feel. People, IMO, tend to see things from where they are and not from the other persons perspective. As I have stated before I like the term transgender as I am out living openly. I find I'm treated better, people don't need to know if I have or am planning to have any surgeries. All I want is people to accept me for me. For me the term gives me cover, and permission to dress how I want.

[susan54]

I find myself increasingly troubled by this 'discussion' which is more of an attempt to overrule me than a discussion. The name above the shop that has many departments - fair enough - it is just that there is no department for 'just' crossdressers - the shop refuses to acknowledge our existence outside the term 'transgender'.

Language evolution would be a valid argument if it applied. We have a language where 'hot' and 'cool' have developed meanings that have much in common, neither of them related to temperature. But here we have the equivalent of people using the term 'hot' to describe what is merely lukewarm. That is not language development - it is misrepresentation.

If a restaurant advertised hot food and instead served lukewarm food, it could not use language development or its own personal definitions as a defence. What it says sin the dictionary, especially the OED, has huge relevance in how language is used. No matter how YOU define them, crossdressing and transgender have different meanings.

Why we crossdressers are being conscripted by the transgenders so assertively is a mystery to me. Why do they need us to validate themselves? And why does the site allow it? Just as it is bizarre and inaccurate to assert that "all crossdressers are gay" it is to assert that "all crossdressers are transgender". Nothing wrong with any of these categories, but why insist on applying them against people's will? They are not just labels. There is a fundamental psychological difference between a man in a dress who sees himself as a man and one who sees himself (herself) as a woman, and that difference is critical to many partners.

Partners who have just encountered their man in a dress will be distressed. They will be looking for information and that information needs to be right. A website like this has a responsibility to the men and women affected by this issue to help clarify it, not muddy the waters. In such situations, the partner will probably already be suspected of telling lies. The definitions applied here will help confirm the assertions that they are 'just dressing up' to be lies - when they are not. Lives can be affected, possibly ruined by this.

I know I have had support from other members, but only a few, and they are outnumbered by those who insist I am wrong. So perhaps there are just a few of us. I have thought of resigning from the site over what I perceive to be misrepresentation of some crossdressers as transgender. Instead of doing so I am trying to do something about it so that there is actually somewhere people like me will be able to go for advice. I may no longer need such advice but others do. I know of nowhere else they can go. Currently they are getting slanted advice (accompanied by considerable insistence) and I can't even understand why.

[redtea]

Saying you're "just a crossdresser" is just like saying you're "just a billionaire." Crossdressing is cool. Crossdressing is something to be proud of. It doesn't matter why we do it or how often, we're not broken. We're the lucky ones. So, be strong, be happy, be proud, and keep wearing your pretty clothes.

I think i saw the documentary that nicole was referring to. They were separating transgender as if it were something that shouldn't be looked down on and superior from Crossdressing which is for fetish drag queens. It embraces the stereotype that there is something wrong with crossdressing.

It fails to understand the spectrum of CDing.

There are those on the verge of transition, There are those in the middle, There are those who just wear lingerie, There are those who often fully dress up, There are those (me) who only do that about once every 2 months just because it takes up a lot of time.

[Angie G]

Call me just a Crossdresser. Just don't mess with my dresses. :hugs:
Angie

[Charlotte7]

I am a crossdresser. I crossdress. I wear the clothes of the opposite gender. When I do this I remain me. As me, I don't change personality, I don't change my behaviour. I have no wish or desire ro go any further. I am happy as I am. However I do what I do because it statisfies the girly urges that are within me. I understand where this urge comes from and I understand that for me, the female aspect in all of this is very important to me. It therefore also seems logical to me that what I do goes across the genders. Another word for cross is trans. I am happy to accept this. This works for me. I can also see though that for some people they may feel in thinking this way, that they are being linked in with a different group of people for whom the cause and effect, and the desired outcome, might be wholly different. I can see why this could make some people uncomfortable. Such discomfort is real and should be respected. At the end of the day, the one thing that most of us, on this site have in common is that we all wear women's clothing and, for the most part we enjoy it. The reson we do it, the how we look when we do it, the names we call oursleves, the sub group that we may, or may not, fit into is all irrelevant to the group and personal to the individual. What we should do is celebrate that one thing we have in common, women's clothes.

[Aunt Kelly]

Language evolution would be a valid argument if it applied. We have a language where 'hot' and 'cool' have developed meanings that have much in common, neither of them related to temperature. But here we have the equivalent of people using the term 'hot' to describe what is merely lukewarm. That is not language development - it is misrepresentation.

Not really. Insisting that one narrow "definition", taken from a single static and very generalized reference, is the only accurate one is the misrepresentation. Again... crossdressing is, by anyone's definition, an expression of gender. Which means it fits under even the narrow definition that you have chosen to cite for the term "transgender". The APA recognizes that, which is why they use the term the way they do. By your own admission, the community (by and large) recognizes the same thing, which is why they use the term the way they do. We are not attacking those who, like you, are misapplying the term "transgender". We are trying to point out that this intransigent insistence on misapplying the term is needlessly confusing and divisive, at times when that is that last thing someone needs to hear in a discussion in response to the question "What am I?" In virtually any case, it is accurate to say...
"You are transgender. There are many like you here under that umbrella term, but no one just like you. There are many terms applied to groups of us who share certain traits (crossdresser, gender-fluid, transsexual, etc.), but because we are all different, this is where those labels start to break down. So pick one of those more specific labels if you like, or don't. The only thing you have to call yourself is transgender, because that is what we... all of us, are."

[Shelly Preston]

I could find no definitions as used by the Forums, so I looked up the ultimate source of definitions - the Oxford English Dictionary - the standard dictionary of the English language. It defines transgender as "Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex". As my personal identity at no point departs from my birth sex I am not transgender. If the OED says that, any other definition is in Humpty Dumpty territory where you can invent your own definitions - that does not mean they apply to other people.

My complaint here is that even if other people want to use different definitions, I object to them being imposed on me. Dressing as a beetle does not make you a beetle. Women who find their partners are cross-dressing are often traumatised. From her point of view there is a yawning gulf between thinking her husband likes to wear a dress and thinking her husband wants to be a woman. He claims he doesn't want to be a woman - he is just a crossdresser. So she searches on line for crossdressing and finds this forum. I mean that's what they're called - they must know what they are talking about. This forum insists that crossdressers are all transgender so she looks that up and sees that it means he has a female gender identity so he must be lying. Thanks for that. She looks a bit more at the site and finds that this Forum, called (remember) crossdressers.com, includes people taking hormones or have even completed their transition as well as people who dress as women and then want to attract men ... but hardly any mention of men who are 'just' crossdressing (apart from denial of their existence) on a site called what he says he is. Now she is really scared.

People will have different ways of labeling others some of which are vile and rude but generally it does not happen here as anyone doing so would be removed.



We are a cross-dressing Forum which appears to be intolerant of cross-dressing for its own sake as opposed to gender identity. We do not exist. I cross clothing conventions but my identity does not cross anything gender-related so my dressing is not cross (trans) gender. I say again that clothes do not have gender, people do. Cross-dressing does NOT equate to cross-gender. Those who insist it does do not just have a different opinion - in linguistic terms they are wrong, which is not the same as having a different opinion. I am mystified why there is such insistence on making crossdressers transgender - why does this matter to you to the extent you want to overrule those affected by this?

The threads on this topic make it clear I am not alone. This Forum is not called crossgender it is called crossdressing - how bizarre that it absolutely insists on confusing the two. There is no place here for those of us who are just into the crossdressing despite the site's title. The transitioning TG members tell us they are not crossdressing - they are dressing appropriately. So they are not crossdressing yet they are on a crossdressing forum - where they are not only tolerated but welcomed whereas we who are actually 'just' crossdressing are not even recognised or tolerated as a valid category - you insist we are something else entirely! The word Transvestite is linguistically more correct than Transgender in describing cross-dressers but most of us hate it - I know I do. I do not hate the word transgender I just do not want it applied to me for the simple reason that it doesn't.

I am not 'out'. Currently if my crossdressing is revealed people will assume I want to be a woman. Nothing wrong with wanting to be a woman but I don't. I think the impact on my friends and colleagues (and thus on me) would be considerably reduced if there was more (any?) recognition of the existence of men who 'just' like dressing as women for its own sake rather than because of gender issues. Currently the existence of such a category is invisible so for most it does not exist. With such invisibility it is hardly surprising that society does not distinguish between crossdressing and crossgender, but a web site CALLED crossdressers.com - come on! We expect better.

The site has evolved over years with non binary being our latest addition. We are here to help everyone. GG women joining here always get told about the FAB section so they know they are not alone.

I am old enough to remember when supermarkets only sold groceries. Now they sell almost anything.

We are here to support everyone who has any contact with crossdressing in whatever form that may take be if family member best friend neighbour, teacher etc.

The trouble with assumptions is that they are not always right.

The general public has more trouble with us because we are so diverse as a community. This makes it hard for them to understand us.
If you see me walking down a street and then have to try and label me it cant be easy, am I CD/TS /GQ /DQ.

All we can do is our best but no one can be right 100% of the time.

[Jean 103]

Wow I'm truly sorry you feel that way. Nichole started this post talking about not belonging, fitting in, loneliness.

So you are saying I need a membership card that says I'm a crossdresser to be here. And beyond that my existence threatens you. Really . Did I read this right or I'm I wrong?

[Devi SM]

Nicole, I haven't read the rest of comments except the first one that offers you a hug, and offer you one too and my friendship through email chat or whatever form you would want.
But let me write something here:
I was a Christian pastor as well my wife. I'm not going g to discuss a out teology here but I'm not longer a pastor neither a Christian.
I had so many wonderful and supernatural experiences with who I used to call God and my final definition of it (who cares if is she or he or whatever limited antropomorfos way we could see) is love.
There's no 2 leaves of a tree exactly the same as well snow flakes or whatever we see in nature. So diversity is the rule. Neither twins are exactly the same.
So my point is why to look belonging to a group or a label?
I love that LGBT movement has a flag that is a rainbow, the grades of colors on a rainbow are unlimited the same as among us as Crossdressers can find similarities but no one's experience is the same as other.
So we human beings look for labels, pairs, group as we are to belong for a lack of identity and in our case that's critically hard.
Who or what we are? Man? Weird man? Woman in a man's body? Just someone to enjoy dressing as women? Who cares? You are you, even you don't need a name to call yourself because you are you.
Stop your search and just be you without shame, fears, and be proud on who you are,
There's nothing wrong you can do if you love, there's nothing to fear if you love and finally you're so loved, believe it and live for it.
You don't need to see or even feel the Air you breath, you just breath it, so the same with love and freedom, just enjoy it and live everyday to full..
Don't let the angry control your being but let love does it.
Love, kisses and hugs for you

[AllieSF]

Very well said Vanessa, thanks.

[terza]

i've yet to see a post where fulltime, or even near fulltime, crossdressers on dating and finding female mates --the same (quality) one would chat up in male attire... in an everyday settings, and not some LGBTQ safe zone.
i've only have read on dubious, or probable hazardous, encounters.

i'm older, just shy of 50, still in the highs of my career. being divorced, i am not looking for celibacy.
overwhelmingly is the case that retirement and aged ambiguity/androgyny is the freedom of the crossdresser. i see that as a bit anti-climatic... and a long way to go.

though i am glad for the legal coverage of LGBTQ, i'm not transgender --which is likely why they are a bit resentful, along w/ their own hierarchy of "worthiness"

[Rianna Humble]

I find myself increasingly troubled by this 'discussion' which is more of an attempt to overrule me than a discussion.
This discussion is actually not about you but about the original poster. Your repeated assertion that people should not use the accepted terminology of this site is your attempt to impose your point of view in a discussion about someone else rather than, as you claim, an attempt to overrule you.

[Rebecca W.]

Dear Nicole,

The great thing about this forum is that everyone has their own opinion on each thread that is posted. Individual voices are a great way to sort through your own issues, and to be able to find the words that comfort you. Like anything in this world, you can embrace it or ignore what was said. I read every comment on here and I can feel the personal emotion that each written word has from each reply.


Best wishes for a wonderful day.

Rebecca

[Ressie]

I've said it before. The word transgender has been confusing. Many medical professionals don't even know the different definitions. Like many words in the dictionary, transgender has more than one meaning. Many people think it's tantamount to the word transexual because that's how it's used so often. It also has to do with gender expression or gender identity. Next, it's an umbrella term for anyone from transvestites to transexuals which adds to the confusion.

The first time someone on this site told me I was transgender I didn't know what to think. That was a few years ago so I've had time to ponder that notion. I enjoy seeing myself dressed in women's cloths which is another gender expression or identity. 5 years ago was the first time I've dressed in public for others to see that expression.

Also transgender is an adjective (a descriptive word) not a noun (person, place or thing). So there's no reason to get one's CD panties in a bunch over the use of the word. As a CD you are expressing something about the opposite sex which is a transgender act or behavior. It's not necessarily who you are. Why can't we just relax and have fun?

[Kas]

I know what you mean Susan, as a newish member on these forum I have noticed there seem to be some "unwritten rules" about how you are supposed to act. I have made a couple posts coming from the "man's" perspective of CDing, but get shutdown from the more "senior" members (who to me, seem like the full TS type. Full time Dressers, people wanting to transition etc) of this forum because I am apparently being manipulative, being called a lier etc. They always sticking up for the GG SOs feelings instead of sticking up for your fellow CDers.

I know you are trying to do the "right thing", but remember for many of us, especially newer members, this is a learning experience and our own personal adventure and we want to be able to discuss these things without judgement. Remember, we are all MEN underneath these clothes. If you believe you are not a man, but a woman, are these really the right forums to be posting on?

[Ressie]

Kas, I've looked at some of your other posts and I've gotta say you have a lot to learn. Post 10 in this thread for example shows that you don't really know what a transexual is. And your definition of transvestite isn't complete either. I believe the senior members that are shutting you down are just much more informed about TG issues than you and other noobs to this forum are. There are rules but they the are written under FAQs and rules at the top of the page.

You're right that this is a learning experience but we aren't all men under these clothes. There are GGs, and transmen members here for one thing. And some (most) MtF transexuals find it offensive to be called men. I'm not shutting you down, just letting you know that you might want to learn by observing a little more.

[BettyMorgan]

xNicoleX,
Only you can self-identify. You , and only you, can determine where you fit. And if you are like me, you may not have figured out where yet.
I do know one thing for sure, I am not a cisgender male. And at this point, that's enough.

[Pat]

I know what you mean Susan, as a newish member on these forum I have noticed there seem to be some "unwritten rules" about how you are supposed to act.

Actually, we also have written rules and you'd better start paying attention to those as well. I recommend reviewing the section titled "Respect and Tolerance of Other Forum Members" soon.


Remember, we are all MEN underneath these clothes.

You may be. You will certainly find others on this forum who are as well. But not all are. You will not gain respect if you don't give it.


If you believe you are not a man, but a woman, are these really the right forums to be posting on?

Every person here has a right to post (even you.) If you want to start a thread for people ONLY like yourself, you can start one and specify that you only want folks who feel they are cis-male crossdressers (or whatever you consider yourself to be) to respond. It's that simple. Moderators will enforce reply restrictions on any thread that calls for them in the Original Post.

[Kas]

Every person here has a right to post (even you.) If you want to start a thread for people ONLY like yourself, you can start one and specify that you only want folks who feel they are cis-male crossdressers (or whatever you consider yourself to be) to respond. It's that simple. Moderators will enforce reply restrictions on any thread that calls for them in the Original Post.

That's fine I understand. I just had the assumption that this forum was dedicated for CDers and CD related things (because of the website name crossdressers.com), not a general transsexual forum. My bad. Maybe I'll just stick to the fashion section. ��

[AllieSF]

As has been stated in several posts in this thread the site is open to everyone who has an interest in this other side of life, including family, friends and admirers. As I stated in this thread or another one started by Susan, the majority of members here are in fact self identified crossdressers, which is a broad spectrum all by itself. For ease of communication and using accepted definitions, accepted for this side of life, "Transgender" is used as the umbrella term, whether some like it or not, and many do not like it. Umbrella includes all of us, period. This is also not a general transsexual forum. They, Transsexuals - identity different from their birth assigned sex) are actually a smaller segment here with an active posting population that continues to grow and shrink over time. We also recently added the Non-Binary section, which is a growing segment under the umbrella.

I have read just about every thread on this forum over the last few years. In my opinion, there is very little bashing of anyone here going on. When true bashing is found the Mods and Admins have dealt with it quickly. When if comes to differences of opinions, that is very alive and well here. Many threads get sidetracked by an off topic comment and seem to deteriorate very quickly after that. One of the popular contentious type treads deals with labels, from what they mean, whether they are good or bad, necessary or overly controlling, and finally who is included under the different labels and their definitions. Because one disagrees with another does not mean that they are bashing or whatever that person. Yes, some may do that but they are in the very small minority.

Regarding labels as I have seen it working here: Each person can self identify and use or ignore applicable labels as they apply or not to them. However, based on that umbrella terminology concept, you may identify yourself one way, and those following the current definition may say, "Fine, you call yourself "X", and I based on the site's definitions, will consider you "Y". If someone is fishing they are a fisherman/person in that moment, whether they are adamant that they are only a golfer. I respect what you call yourself as your choice, but I will continue to use definitions accepted here when discussing topics around a label/definition, not necessarily yours. If everyone has their own definition, then no one could communicate on certain topics here, and that would be a shame. You are new here, but this site covers all the relevant and not so relevant topics and more,and many times we repeat the same conversations as new members join the site.

I hope you understand that the majority here in this thread talking about the site's accepted definitions, really want you and others to stay to stay, participate and enjoy your time here. We can always learn something new, and new blood keeps bringing new topics or different twists on old topics that many times result in very interesting, informative and great learning situations that permit many of us to grow and sometimes even question our own earlier cast in concrete opinions.

My only recommendation is to give this site a chance over time to see if it is a good fit for you. If not, then maybe it will be time to continue your search for a better site that better meets your needs.

[Rianna Humble]

Remember, we are all MEN underneath these clothes. If you believe you are not a man, but a woman, are these really the right forums to be posting on?
Kas, look again at the title of this site:
The #1 community for crossdressers, their family and friends
Every member has a right to be here and to post in the open forums so long as they respect the rules. That does not make it
a general transsexual forum.
Significant Others also have every right to be here (reread my first sentence) and they are not "all MEN".

I sincerely hope that your words are not betraying transphobia.

[Kas]

When I said we are all men, I was referring to us crossdressers... You're taking what I am saying way too seriously. OBVIOUSLY GGs are not men and I have no issue with family and friends of CDers on here so stop getting so hung up over that one sentence... The problem is that the members on this site seem to be from 2 different camps. One camp are guys that like being a guy, but dress up in clothes to feel nice/sexy/pretty/cute occasionally. Then there are the people who CDing is their full-time life. The issue is that the views from both of these camps are very different. For example, a 60 yo, gay, never-had-a-partner-before, retired, full-time CDer is not going to be able to relate to somebody like me for example, a 28 yo, straight, work full-time, engaged, part-time dresser. I am having a very hard time on this forum trying to express my opinions without being told I am wrong.

Transphobic? Wow everyone's got it in for me today... I consider myself transgender, so the answer is NO!

[Pat]

The problem is that the members on this site seem to be from 2 different camps. One camp are guys that like being a guy, but dress up in clothes to feel nice/sexy/pretty/cute occasionally. Then there are the people who CDing is their full-time life. The issue is that the views from both of these camps are very different.

the STRENGTH of this site is that it brings people from disparate backgrounds, each with their own understanding, into one place where they can interact discover their similarities and differences and learn from each other. You may be surprised, when you get a chance to see through other's eyes, what you discover about yourself. This place was never meant to be an echo chamber where you hear only your own opinion comfortably reinforced over and over.

[Jean 103]

So just because I'm 61 you don't think I can remember that happened a few years ago. Or when I was your age on top of the world. Then this isn't about me. I'll take a guess that what you are experiencing has more to do with personalities, and everyone is different. I'm not trying to insult anyone here but some people are uppity, middle of the road, down to earth, whatever. That's just life.

Here is an example. There is a local transgender support group that meets every week like thirdy minutes from me. I go sometimes. So I was told this new gay bar opened up in that town by a friend, he didn't know the name his brother in law told him . I have been trying to get the name from my friend. I thought I would ask at the meeting. Now they meet at the LGBT center. I was told "we don't go to bars" WTH I thought. I was asking for a friend that is gay. He has been down lately . I don't go to gay bars. I told him I would go and be his wingman. Some people are very quick to judge, but then they are go if to judge you anyway.

I find its better just to ignore them. I my case I see no reason to go to anymore of those meetings. Be sides when I need support I turn to my friends in the real world.

[Kas]

Hi Jean,

I meant no offence by the age. I picked 60 randomly as an example.

I am yet to meet another CDer in the real world. Too bad you're all the way over the other side of the world or I'd come out with you!

I think you're right. I guess I just need to take a back-seat approach for a while.

[Krisi]

I think i saw the documentary ....................

Everyone should realize that a TV "documentary" is just one person's opinion on a subject. The difference between any one of us and that person is, that person has the means to produce and air his/her opinions to the public while the rest of us do not.

I suspect many of us have seen "documentaries" of men who transitioned and then changed their minds and de-transitioned. Is that the way it should be or do some of us have other views?

- - - Updated - - -


................ The only thing you have to call yourself is transgender, because that is what we... all of us, are."[/I]

And that is incorrect. A person who wears women's clothing from time to time is not necessarily transgender and that's the point many of us are trying to make. When you call us names, you are insulting us. Is that your intention?

[Pat]

I believe Krisi caught you, Aunt Kelly. ;) When we sit and talk in the abstract about others or "the community" we can agree among ourselves that "we're all transgender." But when a person speaks of themselves and says "I am not transgender" you have to respect that. It's very similar to disrespecting someone's pronouns to tell a person who believes they are not transgender that they are. We can lead them to water, etc.

Your view (and mine too) is that it's hard to understand how a person can own hundreds of dollars worth of pads, forms, wigs, etc and routinely put on makeup and women's clothes and still somehow think they're not transgender. But we can't tell them how they feel.

[Charlotte7]

This post grew longer and more convoluted than originally intended but I think that it covers my feelings of much that has run tbrough this thread. Please bear with me.

Strange as it may seem, we have a similar thing with labels and naming in the UK. The UK is made up from four nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Together they form, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You have to realise at this point that Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain, as it is part of the island of Ireland.

(The Irish situatuon gets really complicated so the rest of this post relates to GB, or England, Scorland and Wales).

Now, basically, if you are a citizen of England, Scotland or Wales then you will be a UK national. You would also be a Brit. You would also be English, Scottish or Welsh. Now, for many people being of the country of their birth is more important to them, and so they will self identify as being of there, English, Scottish or Welsh, and most definitely not British. These people may not like to be thought of as being British, they are specifically English, Scottish or Welsh. A Scot may rail againt being a Brit, even though to travel out from the country, they will need a UK passport. England, Scotland and Wales are also part of the island of Britain, which is what ultimately makes us all British. This situation gets worse as, around the World, there are many non-UK people who do not know about the nuances of British identity and lump all British people into being English, which is bad for Welsh and Scottish people, whether or not, they then go on to identify themselves as Brits.

I suppose what all this goes to show is that there are labels and labels and labels. And that the label that we give ourselves is valid and should be respected, but that may be different from the label that the outside world would use and understand. And that too has to be understood and respected. It just goes to show that naming things, even naming ourselves, is a minefield.

[AllieSF]

Charlotte, what a great example of what is happening here. I especially like this paragraph, and I hope that Kas, Sue, Krisi and others do get it.

"I suppose what all this goes to show is that there are labels and labels and labels. And that the label that we give ourselves is valid and should be respected, but that may be different from the label that the outside world would use and understand. And that too has to be understood and respected. It just goes to show that naming things, even naming ourselves, is a minefield."

[ClosetED]

I only had time to read half the responses, but it is all about the label and the semantics and emotional baggage different people tie to it. We, as well as the various societies we each live in, base the meaning of a word not on a dictionary or a well researched evaluation, but on what others have said or heard. The word transgender is often used in the media when referring to the more visible elements of TG spectrum, the transsexuals (yes - another label which may mean different things to you). So the public thinks they are the same. Those of us who know better, may use the label crossdresser to separate us from the other part of the spectrum that others know - the transsexuals. So while we may consider ourselves trans (transgender) and be accurate to well informed people, the meaning to the general public is different and that is your source of anger-but it is nothing you did and until a visible educator of CDing vs TS comes forth to explain to the public, we remain misunderstood.
Hugs, Ellen

[Krisi]

.... it's hard to understand how a person can own hundreds of dollars worth of pads, forms, wigs, etc and routinely put on makeup and women's clothes and still somehow think they're not transgender.......... So now we're going to decide who is transgender and who is not based on the cost of their feminine "stuff"? Where is the line? One hundred dollars? Five hundred dollars? A thousand or more dollars? And spent over what period of time? All at once or spread out.

I don't think that's going to work because some of us have more disposable income than others. Perhaps we should know the percentage of a person's income that's spent on feminine stuff.

Really, the problem here is that we judge people based on our own personal experiences and our own environment. Your signature line goes like this:


I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.

This makes you very different from me so it's not surprising that you would look at the subject of crossdressing and crossdressers differently than I or some other people would. It would be nice if we could "all get along" but until we allow each other to be ourselves, that's not going to happen. And if some long term members "bully" the newer members, there will soon be nothing but the bullies left on this forum. It would be easy for a new member to post a few questions, get shut down by a bunch of negative replies and decide this is not the place for them.

- - - Updated - - -


Charlotte, what a great example of what is happening here. I especially like this paragraph, and I hope that Kas, Sue, Krisi and others do get it.

"I suppose what all this goes to show is that there are labels and labels and labels. And that the label that we give ourselves is valid and should be respected, but that may be different from the label that the outside world would use and understand. And that too has to be understood and respected. It just goes to show that naming things, even naming ourselves, is a minefield."

What you are missing is that this forum is not the "outside world". Far from it. The outside world puts us all in one category and puts a very negative label on all of us. In the outside world, men wear men's clothing and women wear women's clothing. In the outside world, if you have a penis, you are a male. If you have a vagina, you are a female. In the outside world, there is no "in between" and you can't change from one to the other.

That's the outside world.

[Pat]

So now we're going to decide who is transgender and who is not based on the cost of their feminine "stuff"?

Really? Is that what you got out of my post? Nothing about how we (the bullies, apparently) have to accept others (like you) at their word? :doh:

[Ressie]

it's hard to understand how a person can own hundreds of dollars worth of pads, forms, wigs, etc and routinely put on makeup and women's clothes and still somehow think they're not transgender. But we can't tell them how they feel.

Owning, wearing and using that stuff is a kind of temporary transformation. To me, the act of emulating a female is a transgender act. But the definition of the word "transgender" is too ambiguous for many of us to use pertaining to our selves. It seems it's mistakenly very attached to the word transexual for many crossdressers to want to be associated with it.

Those that don't crossdress with female emulation in mind (wearing only a few garments) might still identify as the opposite sex or might not.

I guess I'm just repeating what I've already posted. I don't see why their has to be any anger over this. Confusing would be a better thesis IMO.

[SamanthaToday]

So after 98 amount of posts and 2900+ of views discussing,

what we can say and cant say.

what we are and are not.

what we want to be, but cant be.

We are gay , we are not gay.

Some are gay, some arent.

Some dress all the time, some dont.

Some want to dress all the time but cant.

Some would dress more if they were younger or prettier.

Other than that,

how's everyone doing.

[Pat]

We're 100 posts in (not counting deletions.) Nobody has moved from their original stance. I think we've all said what we have to say, I'm locking the thread.