Crossdresser Vs Transgender

[Jenna Stunned]

The war rages on, Crossdresser vs being Transgender, How do you identify? This thread may get messy so I apologize in advance to the mods. So, I am currently having a fairly complicated and heated debate over on my Facebook page regarding the 2. Apparently there are a large number of transgender woman who complete skip dressing as a woman before actually deciding to become woman, Rather become them selves, Which to me is still an absolute shock as Dressing as a woman has ALWAYS been the only and best way for me to relate to being trans myself. But hey to each there own. Im not one to judge in my mind, And so far most of the others I talk with, Being trans is a state of mind more so than anything else. But not all share in that opinion and are offended at the idea that being trans and being a crossdresser are not COMPLETELY different. Most argue that being a crossdresser is only about sex. All fetish. I KNOW this to be incorrect, But wanted to come here and get some other opinions.

My post went like this.
The argument that i have seen pop up more than once is in referring all crossdressers to sexual fetish, Which from my eyes is definitely not the case. Yes, There are definitely people who crossdress to get their jollies off, But Its certainly not everyone who corssdresses. Which leads me to the next argument, What truly defines one sub group from the other? As I have also seen pop up on more than one occasion that being truly trans and just being a crossdresser are very different. As one girl posted "Being a crossdresser is 100% diffnt than being transgender. That is a fact! not debatable... if you honestly do not know that, then your lost!" Well, if its 100 percent different, Where is the hard line? What truly defines one from the other? To me human beings are incredibly complicated social beings each unique in their own thoughts and feelings. Life can be incredibly difficult for all of us where not all of us are free to make the decisions that others are afforded. Freedom isnt free, We all pay for it one way or another. Most of us have had to make great sacrifices in one way or another throughout or lives to be where we are today. How can anyone truly say that there is an absolute difference in how a person relates to there own gender? To me there is no true separation between the two, Only a lot of gray area in which a great deal of us fall into. But, As on girl posted, perhaps im just lost......

Most replies have been in defense of my statement except for this gem that I woke up to this morning....
I don't care if I'm hated for saying this statement....I've talked to alot of crossdressers.... and trans....but one thing runs true after an hour talk they finally admit when they take off there cloths there all male....they feel sexy as girls while there wearing woman's clothing....but take it off...all male....they lie...an claim they are Transgender...they are not...all that I have had dealings with we're very agressive sexually showing sex revolving around sex...mostly with men...but sex is what they pushed ...
They all have earned that reputation...an I for one definitely try to educate crossdresser....or even cross dressing does not make you Transgender...being Transgender is WHO YOU ARE INSIDE....stop forgetting that...that is our separation...an they admit too after a lil debate...
I don't care if they are gay...or whatever...they can exist....gay..bi lesbian...whatever I'm cool with it...just don't bug me touch me or push your shit
However....crossdressers stop saying your Effing Transgender....your gay...call it that.....if you were Transgender you wouldn't undress put on men's cloths an be cool with it...your a guy...your a crossdresser dressing to troll for sex...they all have admitted it to me....any who say there not are liers....
Transgender is not about sex
Crossdresser are about sex
That's wear I stand...they claim it...they earned it... but not all, i just woke up to this gem this morning and decided I had to share it here.

Also written was
I do beleive that cross dressing is mostly a fetish. For Some it is a lifestyle. I don’t beleive it is trans.

There were even worse things being said in another posting but I wouldn't stand for what was being said and deleted it all together as I completely disagreed with what was being said. So I ask you fine members of this crossdressing forum. How do you identify? What is your motivation?

[Kas]

I think the issue is that this woman is mistaking transexual for transgender. Crossdressing falls under the transgender umbrella as does transexual. To me, transexual means you are a woman trapped in a mans body. You hate your body, You hate your penis, you want SRS/HRT, You hate all male things in general because to you, you're a girl. Period. The term Crossdressing on the other hand is much open to debate.

Crossdressing to me seems almost as vague as the term transgender. It's a large category which fits in many people; from those who can only do it a few times a year sexually, to people that dress full time and act like women.

The thing is, crossdressers do not hate their bodies, penises etc and are happy to just do what they do. Unlike transsexuals where it is a constant mental and emotional battle with yourself.

I agree crossdressers cannot consider themselves transexual unless they are wanting to transition, but we are definitely transgender.

I think what she is referring to is called a "transvestic fetishist" (transvestite) Which is a purely sexual form of crossdressing.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to her if she can't understand that crossdressing falls under the Transgender category.

I identify as transgender and a crossdressers.

[Vicky_Scot]

I agree with Kas. Crossdressing comes under the umbrella known as Transgender. Transgender is a name that encompasses crossdressers, transvestites (which are both the same actually), transsexuals and many more. It seems that the media have hijacked the term for Transsexuals only when that is not the case.

[Kas]

Hi Vicky

I have heard that the word transvestite is outdated now and has actually been replaced with "transvestic fetishist" in recent writing. I guess it's just another label to add to the long list haha

[Samm]

Hi Jenna. For me, at first, the sexual feeling from dressing was about the only feeling I could identify. (This is going back almost 35 years). Other than it just "feeling right", I could never come up with a definitive answer. I'm hetero. I dress maybe once a week for a couple of hours. I am male. I know this for certain. But I still think that (for me ), I'm not "just a crossdresser". From a very early age (like second grade), I always felt I was different and felt I never quite fit in anywhere. I do feel that there must be some percentage, however small, of female in there somewhere. Even if it's 1 percent, for example. Does that make me 1 percent trans? I think so in some way. It's definitely more than "I just like the clothes" But that's just me..... whatever that is

[Kas]

Even if it's 1 percent, for example. Does that make me 1 percent trans?

Yes, it would make you 1% transgender.

[sarah_hillcrest]

To me this entire argument is just dumb. To me it seems plainly obvious that there is a difference between crossdressing and transsexuals, but they both are crossing gender roles which is a very definition of transgender. I think some, especially, younger folks have taken ownership of the term "transgender" and treat it like a holy sacred word. I hate to throw out the term "snowflake" but this kind of behavior is where that word gets its power from. It's like, I'm this, and its very special and meaningful, and you're this which is fine but it's not as special and meaningful as me. They just need to grow up.

It's also painfully obvious that everyone is different, some people have strong libido and others don't. Some may get their kicks off from crossdressing and attracting men, while others may be happy to pretend to be a girl while online gaming wearing the exact same clothes that all the guys are wearing.

There also seems to be an issue that younger trans people have with the whole notion of "gendering" and this it's wrong. Yet they are furious about protecting their pronoun.

[kimdl93]

May i suggest a peaceful resolution. Whether in Facebook or life, we seem to focused on that which separates or differentiates us from others. It serves little purpose, yields no benefits.

Arguing definitions is like arguing about what is blue. No doubt most of us have a common perception of the color, but with inevitable and wide ranging variation.

As so many have stated below, this topic need not be discussed as A vs B, but rather how are A and B alike and in what ways dissimilar

[Charlotte7]

The way that it works for me is quite simple: We are whatever we want to be and however we want to define ourselves, but, what we do does fall somewhere on the transgender spectrum. In my mind the two, what we are and what we do are not linked. Unless that it is, the individual chooses to make that link. Me, I'm more than happy to define myself as a non-transsexual, transgender, non-fetishistic crossdresser. That's my label for me. Your personal label may be different, for you, and it is no less valid.

[Stacy Darling]

Deciphering the written word on this subject is quite overwhelming for me, not to mention the difference in opinion which always interrupts a good read!

So Jenna, I identify purely as a Crossdresser! Not the type described by your ranting fan though!
I dress because I wish to be beautiful, whether male, female or 50/50! Same with sex!

Stacy!

[XemmaX]

Crossdresser/gender fluid/ t-girl etc is ok by me but tbh i just do me whatever that is. I think the problem is that there's some misdirected hate from transwomen onto cd's as some not all seem to think crossdressers are making them look bad and are responsible partly for why there is so much discrimination against transwomen in particular.

[Ressie]

Some people see everything in black and white. And once again we see the ambiguity of the word transgender. There are some (a small percentage) fetishistic Crossdressers that don't realize that they are actually transexuals according to scientific studies. It has to do with gender dysphoria - whether or not one has GD and how intense it is. There are also crossdressers that are emotionally attached rather than sexually attached to dressing.

Arguing about labels and such based on how one feels isn't scientific. It's just opinion from observing one's self. There is so much ignorance regarding this even among transgender people. I don't consider myself an expert, yet I find it amazing that there is so much argument going on due to ignorance. There is tons of information available covering studies throughout the 20th century up until more recent years. Maybe in another 100 years there will be answers to all the questions.

As for myself, I'm pretty much a fetishistic CD. Although I emotionally wanted to a female when I was a teenager. I didn't quite feel that I was trapped in the wrong body as most TS say. I'm masculine in some ways and feminine in some ways. I've just always been jealous of women I guess. SRS wouldn't be enough for me though. My dream is to be a genetic woman which can only be a dream.

[Samm]

Yes, it would make you 1% transgender.

thank you Kas, I'll take that!

[Pat]

This thread may get messy so I apologize in advance to the mods.

And this moderator assures you it will not get messy or it will get locked/deleted. I hope we understand each other.

[Ineke Vashon]

No need for labels for me. I just like to wear women's clothing. Makes me feel normal, relaxed, pretty and in line with what I feel inside:battingeyelashes:.

Ineke

[Jenna Stunned]

Absolutely, Wasn't my intent to start a flame war, Just Ive seen this get out of hand elsewhere, And that is not my intention. Just wanted to get some more opinions on the subject.

[Jean 103]

First Kas is right.
I'm not transexual, I don't hate my body. I do wish it wear different but don't hate it, as a transexual does. I know a couple that have had SRS without knowing their sexual preference, and have never been with a man, (MTF). They need the surgery to feel complete. They don't just want to live as a woman, they want to be a woman. If you understand this it will help you to understand them.

As I said this is not me. I'm what is called gender fluid. I'm out , I live two live's , at work I'm a guy, the rest of the time I'm Jean. It's not that cut and dry, but in general it is how I currently live. I live in the real world. I'm going to a baby shower this Saturday, is that main stream enough for you.
Labels are just that, only labels. Forget about this stuff and just live life as you wish. It's what I do.

[Krisi]

Well, it's already gotten a bit out of hand as some folks have stated things that they believe to be true as fact when in fact, they are not fact. :Angry3:

Nobody here knows what is on another person's mind or why he does certain things. And nobody here has the right to hang a label on somebody else.

This thread should be deleted and the entire subject banned.

[Sara Jessica]

Jenna, the sense I get from the examples you provided tell me that those who are arguing in favor of transgender are doing so to make it a more exclusive status that completely eschews the "lowly" crossdresser.

Sarah above says it so very well. As such, I will try to convey some thoughts from my simplistic point of view:

1) Crossdressing is something one does. It is behavior that can define a person as a "crossdresser".

2) Transgender is a wide-reaching descriptive term that can be used to describe elements from the entire gender spectrum.

3) Transsexual is the person who identifies as being a gender that is not what they were labeled with at birth.

Transsexual is who one is. Crossdressing is what one does. A crossdresser is engaging in transgender behavior by adopting the clothes/look/mannerisms of the female gender but that person doesn't necessarily have to be transgender. The transsexual individual can define themselves as transgender by their very nature rather than the behavior of crossdressing.

Simple? Maybe. Confusing? Likely!!!

Bottom line is that it seems that those who protest that the crossdressing individual is in no way transgender just doesn't like that blurry real estate between those areas at the extreme ends of the gender spectrum. This spectrum allows people to migrate as they become fully aware of their sense of self from a gender standpoint. And that is perfectly OK.

[CONSUELO]

Jenna,

There is no war. Humankind has long had a tendency to argue and become heated over the smallest things. Rather than us trying to make a definition based upon our limited experience, perhaps we should just accept whatever the current definition of these words by the psychiatric/psychologic community. There are a number of well researched books available that go into this in some detail. I defer to them.
As for me I am a fetishistic transvestite. I love to dress, I love the clothing, makeup, shoes, jewelry etc. etc.. I awake in the morning and think of how I should dress that day. I find that dressing in feminine attire is a very sensual and sometimes sexually arousing activity. It has been that way since I was very, very young. I have a male body and I don't have any plans to change it.

[Robertacd]

What truly defines one sub group from the other?

The need to feel superior over others.

I have always found people hung up on labels are so because they want to be sure their label makes them superior over your label.

[Pat]

I'm not transexual, I don't hate my body. I do wish it wear different but don't hate it, as a transexual does.

Let me suggest this: let transsexuals say what transsexuals feel/experience. You say what you feel/experience. Do not assign motives or experiences to others and then everyone is on solid ground. Not TS? Then you have nothing to say about them. Not a fetishistic crossdresser? Same deal. It's when you reply for others that the fights start and threads disappear. I'm hoping we can have this discussion without that happening.

[nikkim83]

Here it is from my perspective.

I am a crossdresser, I wake up every morning, and I hate the lump in my throat, my flat chest, my course skin, and broad shoulders. I wish everyday that I had a chest, and could match on the outside how I would like to on the inside.

I wish everyday that it was a simple as saying screw this grabbing a handful of pills, and scheduling about 10 surgeries, and being able to change my entire appearance it isn't. I made decisions when younger that prohibit me doing that (Children). There is literally only ONE male moniker that I love and that is being called Daddy.

I have experimented with a guy before, it happened twice, once in fem once not and guess what I hated both, and will not do it again. I guess if my dressing is hiding that I am gay, it is because I prefer sex in Female mode with women (wanna be lesbian I guess).

My earliest memory of wanting to cross dress was at 6 years old, I wanted a pretty pageant dress, I had no freaking idea what sex or fetishes were I just knew that it was pretty it looked right and I wanted one.

So here is my admission when I take my clothes off, I go back to male because that is what a good Dad does. I don't want to I still have to look at the humongous bump in my throat, I still have to look at my hands, I still have to look at my flat chest, broad shoulders, and I could care less about what is between my legs it is just a means to an end. When the clothing comes off I hate myself but AT least for that day that one snippet in time I get to feel normal, THAT is what my crossdressing is about

Please don't be offended by this transitioning is not easy from the sickness caused by pills, to the pain caused by surgeries, to the reactions by those whom you thought were your friends. Either way is a hard path and I would imagine without a doubt that a ton of people would give almost anything if the hurting would just stop.

[Kendalli]

Kas you hot it spot on. And I agree with you too Sarah_hillcrest that a lot of younger people are way too sensitive on how they are referred as.

[GretchenJ]

I have a rather oversimplified rationale about these two labels , and it relates to Gender Expression and Gender Indentity

Cross Dressers present as a member of the opposite sex as a means of Gender Expression (Presentation). At all times though , their Gender Identity matches their assigned sex at birth

Transgender people also crossdress as well as means of Gender Expression, but during this time their Gender Identity also matches their presenting gender at this time. Furthermore, their gender identity can also transform to their non assigned birth gender without the need of cross dressing.

[Sarah Doepner]

My two cents in on a dollar discussion.

As soon as we begin to explore our gender identity we are starting a personal transition. Where that ends is a personal choice, but it may involve anything from wearing a single article of clothing designed for the other gender for 20 minutes to social, legal and medical gender reassignment. I suggest that anywhere along that wide and winding path the term Transgender is appropriate to some extent and obvious in others. If we have not made the personal evaluation that tells us we are no longer the gender we were born with, we are crossdressing in some form or another. When my wife would wear one of my sweaters or a fleece shirt to stay warm, or when I used women's trouser socks as liners to prevent blisters when I was backpacking, I could have been crossdressing. As Sara says, that is an activity independent from our identity.

The need for labels seems to come from two primary places. First is the medical/psychological/insurance community and is needed to properly direct care and get paid for it. The second comes from within the community as we attempt to closely define which "tribe" we belong to and where we look for the kind of support we desire.

It's this second source that seems to be the problem here because as we closely define who we are and want to be associated with, we are at the same time excluding others. Those of us being excluded are often struggling on our personal journey and that exclusion tends to feel as though we are no longer valid or our feelings and ideas are no longer real. Intended or not, the process of exclusion has a negative side.

Be who you want and associate with who meets your needs. Just remember that we are all making a journey and could occasionally use a hand up rather than a door shut in our face. Explain why you are limiting your definition in ways that demonstrate the value of inclusion. Just don't use that to diminish the value of someone else and their life.

Okay, maybe it was 4 cents.

[Jean 103]

Krisi,
I hope you are not referring to me. The two I refer to I know very well. They are in the transgender support group that meets every week I'm a part of. I don't mean to refer that all transsexual's are this way because they are not, but these two are. One is divorced the other widowed, one young the other old, one working the other retired. So even they are differant. Just on this one point they are the same.

[kimdl93]

Its always dangerous to ascribe intentions or motives to others. its much more informative to express what a term that applies to you means to you. I define myself as transgender. I probably have multiple dimensions to my desire to experience and express myself as a woman...even as I recognize my physical and emotional limitations. I doubt my specific mix of such stuff is identical to others who deem themselves to be transgender but I suspect the similarities out weigh the differences.

[Allisa]

GretchenJ, thank-you I could not agree with you more.

[Diane Taylor]

Why are so many of us so worried about labels? Just be who and what you are and don't worry about whether you're trans this or trans that. Just my two cents.

[Rachael Leigh]

Yes the word transgender means many things, for me I do seperate a CD verses someone who is going to live fulltime presenting as a women, now that includes those who don’t opt for surgery, which I find for some in here is like sacrilege.
For some who are trans that live as women they dont go complete for many reasons, doesn’t mean they are not trans.
Like Diann says I don’t like labels but I’m a trans women and that’s me. I dress at home when no one can see me and I
present in public it’s not sexual for me it’s just me.
Rachael

[docrobbysherry]

"Thou protestith too much!":straightface: I've been accused of not being trans enuff quite often. Online and here!

Almost all dressers of every ilk at one time or another have been turned on by elements of their dressing. Or like me, by the complete female image in their mirrors!

Many trans would like to forget that "dirty" side of dressing, and come down hard on us "fetish dressers" as being "completely different". That's easy for me to understand. Altho, I don't appreciate their negativity.

There r times I get turned on by dressing.:o
Others when sex is the last thing on my mind!:brolleyes:

[Ressie]

Even though there are other threads with pretty much the same topic, I think there's a good discussion going on here. It might help some of us take another look at our selves and also better understand where others are coming from.

[Rayleen]

What ever you would like to call me :

one day I feel Girly and dress up ...destresser.

another day I hate my male organs and wish I was Femme.

so do not like me in male mode on other days

I'm a human being sensitive and caring

Lets call it somewhere someone in between.

[ClosetED]

It is arguments over labels, which mean different things to different people. Rather than go by actions and reasons.
I could make an argument that a woman wearing pants is a crossdresser, even if made for women. Because in certain times in the past, only men wore pants. A woman now wearing pants would say it was due to choice of comfort and warmth. So a man wearing pantyhose could make the same argument. But he is labelled a crossdresser and she is not.
I did start off fetishistic, but not in many years. Now my reasons are to feel feminine as it is for many of us, and for me, I like to think I also look pretty. Some do not aim for that. Some may say the reason is not to feel feminine, but simply to break the societal norms of gender thru clothing or makeup.
I did see a person yesterday in a store, male clothing, but feminine eyebrows with eyebrow pencil and some makeup.
Trans is not specific enough, while transexual is much more specific. Transgender is very vague to me, but others may have assigned a specific set of actions/reasons to that label, which is not how I view the label.
Hugs, Ellen

[Teresa]

Jenna,
This one just keeps going round in circles, the use and misuse of labels.

Sara is correct we all crossdress, but our reasons are so varied , we all have a slightly different angle with our needs.

The sexual side is bound to come into it , many of us start that way , again some use some very strong language and put those down who admit their dressing has a sexual content , I'm stuck with aspects of that and there's nothing I can do about it .

I did raise the question of who is using or misusing the labels , a recent TV program in the UK told the story of the transgender community but used the term to explain those in transition , so should they have used transsexual rather than transgender in their program ?

We all have to live with various aspects of Cding why do we have to get so heated about labels ? In truth we don't need them among ourselves it's only when we come out to general public that we need to describe ourselves in some way. The problem is there are too many labels and we keep invented new ones , they are only going to confuse people more.

I still believe that the public think a CDer is someone hidden in the closet possibly wearing his wife's clothes for whatever reason . Someone who appears in public must be somewhere on the transition road otherwise why would they do it . OK there are some that assume we dress to attract men so we must be gay, as we all know it's fairly rare .

The person who voiced their opinion hadn't fully engaged their brain before sitting down and typing that load of crap, we just have to treat it with the contempt it deserves .

[Jean 103]

Fair enough Pat. But these are their words . I have sat through many meetings listening to their long drawn out explanations of their life and how they feel. These are people I know, meet with face to face. Not someone hiding behind a computer, but accrual people leading accrual lives. Not some fantasy.

[LilSissyStevie]

There is the Transgender Borg that wants to assimilate everyone under it's umbrella so it can speak for all of us, then there is the Transgender Cult that wants to exclude everyone that doesn't meet it's standards of TG purity. In the first case, I ascribe to the Marxian (Groucho, that is) principle that I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member. In the second case, there is absolutely no benefit from belonging to their little cult so exclude me please!

A large percentage of fetishistic crossdressers are in complete denial about the eroticism that lies at the root of their CDing. That does me no harm so I don't care. But, if you want to know if someone is a fetishist, don't ask them, ask their wife.

[Gillian Gigs]

Pats quote, "You say what you feel/experience. Do not assign motives or experiences to others and then everyone is on solid ground."

I'm a guy who likes several articles of clothing that are found across the aisle from the men's section. I cross the aisle and buy what I like to wear. I crossed to the other side making me a cross dresser! The fetish side was very much a part of it all, when the hormones raged. As I have gotten older it's mostly about the clothes, than about sex, occasionally it is about sex, I'm not dead yet. In my youth it was often referred as transvestism, as in one who wears clothing usually worn by the opposite sex. I'm not going to get hung up on words, but I have believed that this does fit under the transgender umbrella.

PS: the word fetish has a negative connotation to it. Don't get hung up on it. Would you get hung up if a guy had a boot fetish, or a hat fetish? A fetish is something that stimulates an individual, usually in a sexual way!

[ChubbyLeahCD]

I have had a therapist tell me that I am transgendered because of my crossdressing. I can also be considered gender fluid because when I’m en femme or dressed like my male self I take on the full characteristics of the gender I’m dressed as.
So I’m bisexual, transgender and gender fluid. Now where’s the damn glam glitter!

[Jenny22]

Centuries earlier, maybe of labels, Willie the Shake said, "What's in a name ....?"
Nuff said.

[Teresa]

Dandizette,
Your last paragraph is the sort of comments we shouldn't be using to describe another here on the forum, If someone's CDing is sexually linked from an early age there is nothing we can do about t, we have to learn to live with it .I agree with Gillian don't get hung up on it especially if it doesn't affect you , OK I'm going to put my foot in it and say it's to do with AGP , I don't intend to sidetrack this thread but it's partly what makes me tick and I live with it , I don't have a problem now I understand it .

[Jaymees22]

OMG if this keeps up I'll have to get a new label machine my old one is wearing out. My previous support group was run by a therapist in my introduction I said I am a crossdresser, she said no your trans, I'll go with the professional opinion.

[VS Fan]

I have a very simple take on all of this:

I daydream about what it would like to be a woman, I even wish I was/were a woman at times. I'm definitely one of those who would take the red pill or whatever and become one overnight.

But I don't think I am one inside. Yes, I'm sensitive and all that, but I'm still a guy, and am ok with that.. and that's the rationale that I gave my therapist (not a gender therapist, just a general one)... she didn't push the issue at all, so it seemed good enough for her also.

So do I consider myself part of "LGBTQ.."? Sure, I think that I have plenty in common with others in that collection of letters, and I would even put myself on the "transgender spectrum" if pressed. But with no intention or desire to take a (non magical) route to transition, I feel firmly entrenched in the "just a crossdresser" camp.

VS Fan

[Kandi Robbins]

Why does it matter? We are who we are, regardless of a label placed upon us. To answer the initial question, I consider myself a crossdresser, but that it only because I do not wish to become a woman. But when dressed, I consider myself a woman. Who cares? I go about my life, loved and accepted by so many, smiled at, complemented, not being considered one thing or an other. Just a person. A valuable person. It is arguments about which box to be placed in that have caused me to pull back quite a bit in my online activities. To answer the second question, my motivation is simple: happiness. I have never, ever been happier and I've been around for quite a while.

[Lana Mae]

I agree with Kandi! On my journey I have learned that I am me! Male mode or en femme, I am me! Like me or hate me but I am me! YMMV Hugs Lana Mae

[Kelly DeWinter]

The OP said

"Apparently there are a large number of transgender woman who complete skip dressing as a woman before actually deciding to become woman"

I've read a number of stories of women who have regrets after transition.

I'd think that being absolutely sure of what you are before transitioning would be a good argument for labels.

[DIANEF]

I recall a story in the UK several years ago of a male who transitioned to female. After a few years of that she decided that being a woman was 'too much effort' and reverted to being male. (I'll let the medical experts work out how) Then a few more years later wanted to become female again, all courtesy of the NHS of course. Strange. As far as labels go I don't think I'm totally sure myself which one I'd fit, but if someone feels the need to put one on me I won't exactly lose any sleep over it.

[suzanne]

As is almost always the case, if you don't personally know someone in the (insert classification here) category, all you have to go on to make a judgement is the stereotypes, which in the case of us crossdressers seem to be generally negative. We are "Other". In the past we have been labelled as perverts, child molesters, gay, sick, twisted, mama's boys. (Ever see the movie "Psycho"?) These stereotypes can die hard for those who have never seen one of us in person. In this light, it's no wonder a SO can sometimes have a hard time accepting us. So being dismissed as "not one of us" doesn't come as a surprise.

I think the answer is to ignore the flak and barbs from the naysayers.They are no worse than any other kind of hater. And just keep on with your own thing. If enough of us are out there behaving like civilized humans, the hate speak will die down.

[TheHiddenMe]

I attended the Transgender Spectrum Conference about 10 days ago. I signed up because it was an opportunity to be out dressed AND an opportunity to learn.

It was called the Transgender Spectrum Conference because the term Transgender covers a broad range of personal traits. There was a session called Transgender 101, where the presenters presented a slide called the Transgender Umbrella, which included CDs, trans men and women, drag kings and queens, intersexed, and other categories. In short, if you crossdress, you fall under the Transgender Umbrella.

It's not an either or. There are transgender individuals who just wish to dress as the opposite sex, and there are transgender individuals who's gender identity doesn't match their biological body, and transgender individuals who have both male and female biological components. But they are all transgender.

[OCCarly]

I am one of "those" transsexuals who did not do a lot of dressing before she started hormonal transition. I want to use this post to try to shed some light on why that is/how that works, at least in my case.

I developed a distaste for most forms of crossdressing as a young adult because I did not like the way female clothes hung on my male looking body. So instead I sought out male analogs for female clothing, such as men's bikini underwear, tank tops, speedo type swimsuits, etc.

My current transition is not my first attempt -- it is my fourth. I researched transition and made long distance calls to doctors back in 1982 when I was in college. The lack of funds stopped that effort. I self diagnosed and made a second attempt at transition after I finished law school in 1989, but stopped when I read that "Gender Identity Disorder" what they called it back then, was considered a mental illness, and a diagnosis might result in the loss of my law license. On my third attempt in 1998/1999 I was crossdressing at home, had a female online persona, and was just starting to explore myself when I went to court one day and saw a young transgender girl get mistreated by a judge. That ended attempt #3.

In 2005 I started having chest pains, irregular heartbeats and high blood pressure, and my doctors kept telling me it was work related panic attacks. I passed all the cardiac tests. My doctors tried anti depressants, beta blockers, tranquilizers, and anti anxiety drugs, and nothing worked. Near the end of that (late 2015) two things happened. 1) My panic attacks turned into a nasty stress related disorder called Roemheld Syndrome, where nerve impulses and spasms from my esophagus were messing with my heart and causing tachycardia and actual cardiac pains, and 2) I learned almost by accident that cross dressing would stop a panic attack dead in its tracks.

I managed to survive for a year as an at home cross dresser, but I still did not like the way the clothes hung on my male body. At the end of that year I was almost housebound by the panic attacks. That is when I went in for gender therapy. Hormones fixed almost everything. I was still having mild to moderate panic attacks every time I had to put the men's business suit on and drive to work like that, but other than that, I knew real happiness for the first time in my life. Now, after 17 moths on hormones, my face and body are totally different, my (female) clothes fit like they were meant to, and I am a happy girl, living full time except when I have to go to court (2 days a week, usually) and when I have to visit relatives I am not out to.

I am getting ready to legally change my name and gender, then I can change my name and gender with the state bar, and go to court as me, rather than as "that guy."

I have learned the hard way through trial and error, that this is not really about the clothing, or even the way my body looks. If my hormones are off, then I can get anxious and irritable and panicky and all the old bad feelings can come back. Up until coming out to myself I never thought of myself as a female because I was never allowed to by my parents. But the bottom line is, I function far better in society and I feel far better about myself living as a woman, and there definitely is a hormonal component to it.

So, this is me. Hugs, Carly

[Aunt Kelly]

As so many have stated below, this topic need not be discussed as A vs B, but rather how are A and B alike and in what ways dissimilar

I believe I understand where you are going with this, but I must point out that the refusal to agree on terms is what leads to the inevitable discord in threads like this. We can and should agree that we're all different and that this or that label does not completely describe many of us, but it is a huge mistake to suggest that this gives us license to redefine the term. Yes, definitions are slippery things. They do change over time, but that change is one born of consensus and/or common usage. Again, it is folly to expect others to adopt your definition of a term simply because you say it is such and such.
I am a crossdresser, but it would be stupid for me to insist that another is not because I see some difference between her and me. At the same time, we are both transgender, according to the consensus of those to whom we turn to for such guidance, academia and the professional community. It would be folly for me to insist that I am not TG because am not a TS.

Look, I know that we can all lay legitimate claim to being "misunderstood", and to having legitimate doubts about where we fit in and what label applies to us, but putting our own definition to accepted terms serves nothing.

[Samantha uk]

For me I see transgender as an umbrella term that encompasses everything from transsexuals to part time crossdressers like myself. Its important to have discussions like these and I know people will say they don't want to be labeled as anything, but the trouble is it makes it very confusing to try and explain how you feel when there are no definitive terms use. Its like trying describe left and right to a ball

[faltenrock]

As a lot of you know, I go out in public a lot. I meet people and talk to quite many people, mostly women.
There are usually a few questions that they have and they're always the same.

- are you a man or a woman?
- are you gay?
- do you want to be a woman?

If I get to talk for people a little more, I tell them about my life, that I'm married, love my wife and that I have children. Normally that's enough for their curiosity and we continue talking about whatever or we dance.
People seem not to be be too familiar with the term 'crossdresser', but I tell them about it and explain what it means and why I sometimes like to present as female.

[Kas]

I believe I understand where you are going with this, but I must point out that the refusal to agree on terms is what leads to the inevitable discord in threads like this. We can and should agree that we're all different and that this or that label does not completely describe many of us, but it is a huge mistake to suggest that this gives us license to redefine the term. Yes, definitions are slippery things. They do change over time, but that change is one born of consensus and/or common usage. Again, it is folly to expect others to adopt your definition of a term simply because you say it is such and such.
I am a crossdresser, but it would be stupid for me to insist that another is not because I see some difference between her and me. At the same time, we are both transgender, according to the consensus of those to whom we turn to for such guidance, academia and the professional community. It would be folly for me to insist that I am not TG because am not a TS.

Look, I know that we can all lay legitimate claim to being "misunderstood", and to having legitimate doubts about where we fit in and what label applies to us, but putting our own definition to accepted terms serves nothing.

Hi Kelly,

I agree with you. We can say we are whatever we want, but these terms do have actual definitions (dictionary). We may not agree with these ourselves, but we have to accept that this is how others will use the term to describe us and technically they would be correct. According to the Oxford dictionary, Cross-dress means to "Wear clothing typical of the opposite sex". So by that definition, I could say transsexuals are also cross-dressers as long as they are wearing women's clothing. Of course they would not appreciate that, but it's true none the less...

[Lacey New]

I will jump in with my two cents worth. From my perspective, I do think the term transgender more closely aligns with the state of mind of the person. I believe that a transgendered male, that is one who may inwardly feel more closely aligned with the female gender may periodically or even regularly wear male clothing. Simply wearing male clothing for some period does not take that person out of being transgendered. Similarly, we have all seen women wearing jeans and flannel shirts. Simply because of the clothing they are wearing, does not necessarily mean that someone is or is not transgendered. So, is it the clothing or the mindset that determines whether a person is transgendered? I identify as a male even when I dress up. I know that I am really nothing more than a man in a dress. So I acknowledge that because I occasionally wear women’s clothing, I am a cross dresser. But I do not feel at all that I am, could be or want to be a woman, so mentally, I find it hard to consider myself trans (or “cross”) gendered.

[Julie Slowinski]

According to the Oxford dictionary, Cross-dress means to "Wear clothing typical of the opposite sex". So by that definition, I could say transsexuals are also cross-dressers as long as they are wearing women's clothing. Of course they would not appreciate that, but it's true none the less...

I believe the transsexuals I have talked to would disagree. They consider themselves women, regardless of the state of their transition. As such, female attire would not be considered crossdressing. I have seen many say that dressing male mode is the crossdressing part.

By the way, I am seeing a number people use the term ‘Trans Woman’ instead of transsexual. Seems the later is becoming dated, the same way transvestite is dated. Feels more appropriate to me, and I am expecting this terminology will become more popular.

My apologies to any trans men out there. I didn’t forget about you - all my statement apply equality, but of course in reverse.

[Stephanie47]

My two cents runs along the same line as I commented elsewhere on this forum. Stop letting yourself be put in a box. It seems as if it is always trying to fit the square peg in a round hole. Our society constantly tries to put everyone in some sort of box. Fill in the darn bubbles on a survey. There are not sufficient bubbles on a survey to accommodate all the unique individuals. I've seen or read in the media a constantly increasing number of descriptive words trying to accommodate everyone's unique qualities.

If you get into a conversation with someone tell them what you feel. Don't stuff yourself into somebody else's box. Life is not simple.

[katiej1989]

I was a "crossdresser" for a lot of years before I realized I was actually transgender, and that my crossdressing had been a way to cope with expressing my gender. The realization came when I listened to a video entitled "am I a crossdresser or transgender" and I literally ticked every box in the transgender column. A tipping point was that I had started to cry (or felt like crying) when it was time to stop dressing up - that and realizing I had been daydreaming about being a girl since about age 6 before I even realized I could wear girls' clothes.

As far as others, I really don't think you need to label yourself. I'm probably not 'exactly' transgender based on all the labels that fly around in the lgbt world - i know there's now dozens of different ways to identify yourself, but I think people, personally, just need to take the time to figure out who they are and what they want, and why they crossdress. Doing that will help bridge that gap and maybe you will realize, like I did, that you aren't just a crossdresser, but that you've been a girl (or boy, or whatever) this whole time, and dressing up was a way to connect with that internal identity.

[Vicky_Scot]

I was a "crossdresser" for a lot of years before I realized I was actually transgender, and that my crossdressing had been a way to cope with expressing my gender. The realization came when I listened to a video entitled "am I a crossdresser or transgender" and I literally ticked every box in the transgender column. A tipping point was that I had started to cry (or felt like crying) when it was time to stop dressing up - that and realizing I had been daydreaming about being a girl since about age 6 before I even realized I could wear girls' clothes.

As far as others, I really don't think you need to label yourself. I'm probably not 'exactly' transgender based on all the labels that fly around in the lgbt world - i know there's now dozens of different ways to identify yourself, but I think people, personally, just need to take the time to figure out who they are and what they want, and why they crossdress. Doing that will help bridge that gap and maybe you will realize, like I did, that you aren't just a crossdresser, but that you've been a girl (or boy, or whatever) this whole time, and dressing up was a way to connect with that internal identity.

Being a crossdresser means your are under the Transgender umbrella. What's so difficult to understand. Transgender on its own is not a condition.

[Fiona123]

I have found the term transgender to have multiple meanings. At its most broad meaning, transgender is an umbrella term that encompasses all sorts of gender non conforming folks. A more narrow meaning would be someone who self identifies other than their birth sex. In any event I am a crossdresser and consider myself transgender. Male to female.

[NicoleScott]

I'm a guy who likes to dress up. I like to express as a woman but I do not identify as a woman. I am a crossdresser, so I am or am not transgender depending on what definition you like. Some definitions of transgender use identify AND express and some definitions use identify OR express...... That's a big difference.
If you want to have a TG vs CD discussion, start off with, for the purpose of that discussion, your definitions. "Who you are inside" is not a definition, nor is "not about sex".

[Jaylyn]

I read thru all this and I am more confused now, some definitions are crazy. I don't consider myself any thing tarns except I love CD, my wife doesn't consider her self trains male when she dons her cowboy boots, cap or hat, and her wrangler jeans and goes with me to help mend a fence. It doesn't make her a hunter to wear camo attire when she goes and sits in a deer stand with me. My wife helps me hold a piece of pipe as I weld the other piece to it. She is wearing a hood for eye protection and long elbow length gloves, it doesn't make her a welder. Why do we need labels as such that to some are derogatory by others and accepted by some? I do feel better in some ladies attire than rough men's but to me it's just clothes and doesn't mean I'm a tarns anything. Sorry for the rant but we are to me way to caught up in having to put a label on everything that we enjoy.

[Gillian Gigs]

My two cents runs along the same line as I commented elsewhere on this forum. Stop letting yourself be put in a box. It seems as if it is always trying to fit the square peg in a round hole. Our society constantly tries to put everyone in some sort of box. Fill in the darn bubbles on a survey. There are not sufficient bubbles on a survey to accommodate all the unique individuals. I've seen or read in the media a constantly increasing number of descriptive words trying to accommodate everyone's unique qualities.

If you get into a conversation with someone tell them what you feel. Don't stuff yourself into somebody else's box. Life is not simple.

I agree, society it seems is always attempting to put people into boxes! From the time we start school they are working to beat the individualism out of us and working at getting us to conform to some standard. In our western culture women have been set free, somewhat, but not men. We are even guilty of using "name" boxes to figure out who fits where. If we as CD'ers can't free ourselves from the "name" boxes, then how can we expect society to do it.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I like that we have an umbrella, for too long we have only had shoes clothes, maybe a line of cosmetics and jewelry is next ?

[Jenna Stunned]

Kelly, I just saw something pop up on my Facebook about a new line of make-up targeted for LGBT. Lol. I guess we just have to wait for jewelry.

A clip from the article.
Catering specifically to the LGBTQ and Trans community, JECCA is catering to an audience usually overlooked by the mainstream beauty industry.

[Aunt Kelly]

Marketers... They're all the same, always looking for another group to convince that they can't live without "new and improved <insert product here>". :)
One of these days, I'm going to have to get an account on that Facebook thing and see what it's all about.

[Kas]

I believe the transsexuals I have talked to would disagree. They consider themselves women, regardless of the state of their transition. As such, female attire would not be considered crossdressing. I have seen many say that dressing male mode is the crossdressing part.

Well funny you say that, because the Oxford definition of transsexuals is:

"A person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex."

I think the key word in that definition is "feels". Just because you "feel" something doesn't make it true. So transsexuals are MEN who FEEL like women. They are still men and therefore by wearing women's clothing they are defined as cross-dressers.

*this is not my personal view. I'm just making a point.

[Charlotte7]

A clip from the article.
Catering specifically to the LGBTQ and Trans community, JECCA is catering to an audience usually overlooked by the mainstream beauty industry.

To my mind JECCA misses the point entirely.
Personally, I want to cross dress, therefore I can only do this if what I wear, including jewellery etc. is made specifically for women. For the same reason I wouldn't get any pleasure from wearing a kilt. But give me the same type of tarten, pleated garment, size it 10, 12, 14 etc, place it on the other side of the aisle and I'm all ears.

[Kas]

One of these days, I'm going to have to get an account on that Facebook thing and see what it's all about.

Don't do it! It's a trap!

[Pat]

"A person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex."

I think the key word in that definition is "feels". Just because you "feel" something doesn't make it true.

"Feel" in that definition is an incorrect word. It's a very common misinterpretation that cisgender people apply to transgender people all the time because the language we use is not very good at describing states of being. It would be more correct to say they experience their gender as that of the opposite (in binary terms) sex. In other words, they ARE the gender they say they are.

Using a flawed defintion, you go on to a flawed conclusion:


So transsexuals are MEN who FEEL like women. They are still men and therefore by wearing women's clothing they are defined as cross-dressers.

First of all, transsexuals come in both sexes. Second they don't FEEL like what they are - they ARE what they are. So they are not wearing clothes designated for the "opposite" gender. Finally, you're confounding sex and gender. Sex is an immutable genetic attribute that has to do with your role in reproduction. Gender is also an immutable genetic predisposition toward a specific socially-defined gender role.


*this is not my personal view. I'm just making a point.

Speaking in moderator voice: we do not need people to argue positions they don't hold. If you're "making a point" that you don't believe in, you're trolling.

[Nikki.]

Well done Pat.

[NicoleScott]

Kas, I think you're close but Pat was right to point out the flaws. Replace "feels" with "experience" or "identify as" the gender opposite birth sex, and it works better. I am surprised at how many times similar mis-statements go unchallenged, such as: "decide to be a woman", "want to be", and "feels like".
Don't go crazy over this example - I'm not comparing transsexuals with anorexic folks - they don't "feel" fat, their brain tells them they ARE. It's very real to them.
Regarding second of your quotes by Pat, replace "men" with "males" and "feel like" with "identify as" and it works better.

[Kas]

Speaking in moderator voice: we do not need people to argue positions they don't hold. If you're "making a point" that you don't believe in, you're trolling.

Pat,

You missed the entire point of my post as usual. I was pointing out that these words (Transsexual, cross-dresser, transgender) have actual definitions IN THE DICTIONARY. You know... THE THING THAT DEFINES WHAT WORDS MEAN. And we have to realise that this is how other people are going to use these words even if we don't agree. I doesnt matter if you think the word "feel" should be replaced with another word because then that is just YOUR PERSONAL definition.

If you think I am trolling, well that just makes me really disappointed in you as a moderator honestly. I believe a mod should have a non-biased opinion on these kind of issues but you obviously have a picked a "side".

If you have a problem with that (flawed) definition, why don't you complain to the people who wrote the Oxford dictionary then and not me?

[AllieSF]

Kas,

As you probably know, probably 99.9% of people do not read that sacred dictionary. We may refer to it when we are really stumped or to prove a point. Our language is learned in school and from those around us, from family to friends, to complete strangers. We also learn from from our multitude of media sources that were limited before and have greatly increased today. Chances are that today if someone wanted to research or look up what crossdresser or transgender means, they would use their computer or their cell phone and probably one of the first sources that they would read would be Wikipedia! So, what the public knows or learns about our different tribes under the transgender umbrella they have probably learned recently. That specific dictionary definition is out of date when compared with the current scientific and medical definitions used today.

You pointed out the source and have now been defending that source as correct. I do not remember seeing anywhere you disagreed with that definition. You fail to realize that it is a flawed definition and misinformation for the uninformed. You should be telling people to be careful what they read in that dictionary because it is not all correct. Yes, even a dictionary can be wrong in the real world usage and point of view, but not in their own limited eyes.

[Pat]

If you think I am trolling, well that just makes me really disappointed in you as a moderator honestly. I believe a mod should have a non-biased opinion on these kind of issues but you obviously have a picked a "side".

I quoted the exact words that I based that opinion on. If you have a problem with it, report the post and other moderators will decide if I have been immoderate. This is an emotionally charged thread for some of the participants and they're trying to discuss viewpoints they DO believe in.

[Kas]

You still don't get it, pat.

It doesn't matter what I do or do not believe in because it is irrelevant.

I was not giving my opinion, I was giving a fact. The fact is that many people in the general public are going to define words by how they are defined in things like the dictionary, Wikipedia etc. If I have no idea what a transsexual is and I decide to google what it means, it's going to give me the Dictionary/wiki definition and I will take that as its true meaning (even though it may not be in everyone's opinion). We as CDers, TS, whatever we are, have to realise and accept these definitions to some degree. Anyway I'm done with this. If you can't see my very simple point then *shrug*...

[GretchenJ]

We can say we are whatever we want, but these terms do have actual definitions (dictionary). We may not agree with these ourselves, but we have to accept that this is how others will use the term to describe us and technically they would be correct. According to the Oxford dictionary, Cross-dress means to "Wear clothing typical of the opposite sex". So by that definition, I could say transsexuals are also cross-dressers as long as they are wearing women's clothing. Of course they would not appreciate that, but it's true none the less...

This is not only wrong , but extremely insensitive as well. Insinuating that those who have transitioned , but they are still the sex they were born, is like shouting fire in a crowded theater, and to imply that they are just cross dressing is crass and just insulting (and I am non-binary, so I have no horse in this race)


But if you want to get technical, there are many dictionaries as well, instead of looking at one as the definitive source
For example , Collins American Dictionary defines Transexual as :
a person who is predisposed (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/predispose) to identify with the opposite sex, sometimes so strongly as to undergo surgery (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/surgery) and hormone (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/hormone) injections (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/injection) to effect (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/effect) a change of sex

So by this definition, they ARE dressing in conjunction to their current sex, and not cross dressing.

There are also many law and medical dictionaries that agree with is definition.

And yes, when you say that this is not your opinion, but lob a grenade anyway, then you are indeed trolling!


P.S. Since you seem to be hung up on dictionary definition, read this one:

Trolling:
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them

[Kas]

Hi gretchen,

I am not insinuating anything. I did not write this definition and you are correct. Different sources have different definitions.

But who's to say the Collins American dictionary is any more right or wrong than the Oxford or vice-versa?

I'm saying you cannot blame somebody for assigning a label to somebody, when as far as they're aware, that's what they are. Sure, maybe they read the "incorrect" definition, but if that's the only definition they know then that's how they're going to use it.

This is all I've been trying to say from the beginning and somehow it's blown up into everybody thinking im against TS now or something... I have ZERO problem with TS and have considered HRT myself so don't assume I do have a problem.

This is related to the OPs original post so not sure why so much hate (mainly from mods). Maybe the woman she was arguing with had simply read the "wrong" definition. You can't blame someone for something they don't know.


Trolling:
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them

Wow this blew my mind. I cannot believe you somehow think you have the ability to read my mind and know my intentions when I make a post. I DID NOT post this with the aim of upsetting/making anybody angry and i find it very offensive that you would say that.

[Pat]

OK, I think we can all agree that misinformed people will not understand the topic on which they are misinformed until such time as they get good information.

The topic on the table is "Crossdresser Vs. Transgender" and specifically (from the OP)


So I ask you fine members of this crossdressing forum. How do you identify? What is your motivation?
(emphasis added)

Keep it polite and no hypotheticals, please.

[NicoleScott]

Gretchen, the TS definition you provided says "identify... sometimes so strongly...." in other words,surgery and other body modification is not required, and indeed many TS don't. Many TS are "dual status", that is, their bodies are male and have the same clothing size and fit issues as crossdressing men, so in that respect they are crossdressing. But they identify as women and wear women's clothing, so they're not crossdressing.

[Aunt Kelly]

No. Kas is not right. To deliberately use the "dictionary" definition of transsexual, so that you can avoid the more nuanced and accurate definition developed and accepted by people who actually understand the condition, is disingenuous to the point of being childish.
Again... you don't get to make up the meanings of the words, just because the one-liner in the Oxford appears to give you some room. Nor do you get to tell us what transsexuals are, feel, or experience unless you a) are one, or b) are intellectually equipped to discourse on the subject. So you are either trolling, by pretending to be ignorant, or you simply do not understand the condition well enough to avoid offending those who actually doexperience it. And no, I am not TS. I can't pretend to know what they experience, but I damn sure can have enough respect to not try to tell them what they are or are not because of what Oxford has to say about the label.

[Jeri Ann]

So transsexuals are MEN who FEEL like women. They are still men and therefore by wearing women's clothing they are defined as cross-dressers.

This is total BS.

[Pat]

And with that, I think this thread is completely and irretrievably off the rails.