Moral dilemma

[Sami Brown]

As I was replying to another thread yesterday, I started to write something about dressing according to community norms, as in something people wouldn't think looked pornographic. After some thought, I took out the sentence.

What made me do that was that in the eyes of some in society, the way we crossdress could be seen to be as offensive as a tarty looking woman, or a nudist, for that matter. Isn't it possible that someone dressed as a tart sees as little wrong with it as we view ourselves? How about the nudist? He or she could see nudity as being an expression of how they feel inside, similar to how we feel our crossdressing is our way of telling the world what we are about.

In your opinion, is the comparison fair? Or is it comparing apples with oranges, similar but still quite a bit different?

I am interested in reading your opinions, especially in regards to how far society should bend in order to be more accommodating of people who are different than themselves.

Sami

[Tracii G]

Myself I choose not to dress like a hooker because it is not how I want to be seen.
My reason also relates to CDing or being trans as well I don't want to be looked at as a sleazy tart that is out trolling for sex.
You are more than welcome as a CD to dress any way you want but don't get mad when some guy hits on you and figures out you are a guy.
Ass kickings are all on you.

You refer to it as a moral dilemma so I have to ask is looking like a hooker something you like as a man?
Do you frequent those kind of ladies?

IMO hookers look trashy and carry STDs so I will stay as far away from them.

[sarah_hillcrest]

I guess there are two ways to look at it, you dress like a _______ so you must be a __________ and if someone does ____________ to you then you deserve it.

Or you wear provocative clothing to express your inner provocateur and people should mind their own damn business.

[docrobbysherry]

I go out dressed a lot, Sami. However, I don't go to vanilla venues in racy outfits. In fact, I hate going to vanilla venues period!:sad:

Hot women dress in sexy outfits to cubs and bars and so do I. Many times a guy will approach me from the back. Then, when he sees my face, he surpressed a scream and ran off ASAP!:eek:

Like Traci said, if u look and dress hot out at nite time, T friendly venues? Prepare to be approached by interested guys or trans!:heehee:

I always seem to get a lot of attention on the dance floor!:daydreaming:
284456

[Jodie_Lynn]

As others have stated, you dress appropriate for the venue. Club wear at the mall will get you looked at askance, while barely drawing a glance at a nightclub.

Where is the moral dilemma? Whether I choose to dress as a man, a soccer mom, a streetwalker, or a nun, if my presentation does not violate public ordinances for lewdness, what does it matter? Is my manner of dress somehow harmful to society?

[NicoleScott]

You are more than welcome as a CD to dress any way you want but don't get mad when some guy hits on you and figures out you are a guy.
Ass kickings are all on you.



Blaming the victim of an assault because of how they're dressed is a sorry attitude. Do you blame rape victims because their skirts were too short? Should your ass be kicked because someone doesn't like your sexual preference?

[Jean 103]

Being completely nude is not the same as wearing clothes, or even a bathing suit . I use to go to a nude beach with my girl friend when I was 16, a very long time ago. I saw nothing wrong with it at the time.

I tend to wear skin tight clothes, and show a lot of skin. Yes I attract attention, isn't that the point of dressing in woman's clothes? It's called fashion. Yes guys hit on me , it's ok I'm BI, I have a couple boyfriend's. They like what I wear. Anyway I get feed back from my friends, in the real world. I get lots of complements form them as well as complete strangers. I miss the mark sometimes. It's not easy constantly coming up with new outfits.

[Sami Brown]

Ok, I don't think I explained the question quite right, and I apologize for that.

I personally dress conservatively, so I am not questioning whether I am going to offend others, even though I am sure there are people who are offended just by the fact that I am a crossdresser. Those people, because of their beliefs, look at crossdressing as entirely wrong. It doesn't matter whether the crossdresser is dressed conservatively or not. They still hate it.

So what we hope is inform those people, and their perception will change. They decide that not all crossdressers are evil or of poor character.

So that is what we prefer to happen. My question is about other societal minorities who want the same acceptance. Nudists, for example, would like public nudity to be accepted. They, like us, like their method of self expression. Their reasoning for nudists may be similar to how I reason the public should be more understanding of crossdressing. If I hypothetically think that crossdressing is okay but don't think nudism is okay, am I holding a double standard? Or does nudism rise to a different level of public offensiveness than crossdressing, making the double standard warranted?

This line of questioning arose because I felt like I might be holding a double standard by suggesting in another post that the individual should dress a certain way, which got me to thinking about double standards in general. That is the dilemma of which I speak. Hopefully my question is clearer now.

Sami

[Becky Blue]

Its the same argument as the MIAD's and the 'Bearded lady' some say any person has the right to dress how they want. That would include dressing in skimpy clothes or a very short skirt. Other argue that as a community we are looking for acceptance from the general public so we should be extra responsible and extra careful to have higher standards and keep a lower profile. Yet others would argue that the more out there people shift the community's acceptance and make it easier for the lower profile of us to blend in.

Me, I try blend in and hope that I am helping my sisters by showing people that I am harmless and actually quite pleasant :)

[Kelly DeWinter]

......

You are more than welcome as a CD to dress any way you want but don't get mad when some guy hits on you and figures out you are a guy.
Ass kickings are all on you.




Tracii;

I seriously cannot believe you condone assault because of the way someone dresses.

Reading back through your posts , If a man hit on you and he turns out to be homophobic, do you really believe , you deserve an 'ass kicking' ?

Your statement basically justifies another persons right to forcefully impose their will over how you present yourself in public.

​I'm still shaking my head that anyone in this community can hold this opinion.

[Tracii G]

Nicole and Kelly I do not condone assault and never did I say I did.
You both assumed something that wasn't there. That is your liberal mindset based on feelings not rational thinking.
You both decided to put words in my mouth which I would never say.
No I do not blame the victim for what happens but blame the person that preys on others.
All I am saying is use your head for God sake and don't dress to put yourself in a bad situation like that.
I find it hard to believe some here can't see the sense in what I said. Its just common sense.
No my ass does not need to be kicked because I'm gay that is beyond nuts and most people don't think that way.

[Kas]

I don't think tracii was condoning anything. She is just putting out the possibility that this might happen. I agree you would more likely be assaulted/harassed if you went out to a night club looking like a complete sl*t rather than being more conservatively dressed. And I'm NOT talking about sexual assault/harassment.

Say your at a night club dressed all sl*tty with your bum hanging out and some dude sees you from the back, comes up and starts grinding on you with an erection in his pants from how sexy you look. Then he reaches into your pants and feels you have a penis? I think the man would get very angry (depending on how homophobic he is), that he was sexually aroused by another man which may lead to him taking it out on you. Hitting a girl isn't ok, but hitting another guy on the other hand...

I know this is horrible, but it's a reality we live in.

[Tracii G]

Exactly Kas.
I try to deal with reality but some live in a world where they view things as they "feel or think" they ought to be.
Sure we should be able to dress anyway we want and that includes ****ty and not be bothered by guys getting the wrong idea.
Sad thing is the world doesn't work that way and the sooner you realize that dressing ****ty only raises the risk of something bad happening.
I'm sure there will be some try to twist what I said and make it sound like I'm the bad person.

[Teresa]

Sami,
There's no pleasing some people they just have a bad attitude to life no matter how we dress we can't pander to those sort of people .

OK it is common sense to dress appropriately for your surroundings and the time of day , that's why a social group is a great outlet on theme nights the chance to dress OTT and have some innocent fun .

I appreciate it's something I have to learn , what to wear everyday , how much or little makeup .

I can't say what drives the nudist community, I don't have a bad body for my age but literally hanging around with others naked isn't for me , seeing another person's wobbly bits , discovering how cruel gravity can be on a body shape ! I know what drives me , I'd much sooner be seen wearing a nice outfit and I'd much rather see a woman making the most of what she has and choosing the right clothes to take advantage of her figure .

I don't feel it's a double standard , besides I feel the cold more now and I would be covered in permanent goose pimples !!

[docrobbysherry]

Sami, I let your "nudist" comments slide before. But, I can't do that this time. I'm not sure how much experience you've had with either nudists or trans? It sounds to me like not much.

I have been to a nude beach in Europe and several friends of mine were nudists. The fact is, most nudists r not very pretty!:doh:
U seem to assume they would like to walk around naked everywhere. Mosts have mirrors and DON'T! Thankfully, I mite add.:heehee:

Now, regarding dressers: I've been meeting them by the 100's for years at T events around the country. However, I had never met one before my first event, the SCC in Atlanta. Suddenly, I'm among 750 T's in one hotel! What a shock that was! They nearly ALL looked like men in dresses to me!:eek:

Over the last 8+ years I've gotten used to even the most manly looking dressers. Because I've come to see the beauty inside of so many of them. As would the Muggles if dressers were common enuff.
And, the same is true of nudists. While I presently cringe at the thot of all the over weight folks I see clothed being nude? If they were, in time we would get used to them, too!:daydreaming:

Making your argument about scantly clad dressers moot. Because if we could get used to folks running around naked, we could certainly get used to trans if they could be seen everywhere. Then, why would a few inappropriately clad dressers turn more heads than similarly dressed GG's? I say they WOULDN'T!:straightface:

[grace7777]

Just because someone is offended does not make the way someone is dressed illegal. If laws were based on someone being offended, there would be no end to who could be cited. Some people get offended very easily.

As this nudity, there are laws against being nude in public. People are expected to cover up certain parts of their body. How someone covers it up is generally up to them.

[Charlotte7]

Victim blaming is never correct as it gives permission to abusers and aggressors. The fault always lies with the abuser or the aggressor. There is no circumstance in which anyone deserves an 'ass kicking'. To say so not only lets everyone on this forum down, but it lets every abused, beaten, harrassed, oppressed, and every other negatively treated GG down. We are all in this together and we should all support each other. This is not woolly, 'liberal' wish thinking, it's how the world is. If I present as a tart in a club and a man assaults me, and discovers a package that he wasn't expecting, that's his problem for initiating the assault. When he hits out, he's not hitting at the person who deceived him, he's blindly lashing out at his own inadequacy. That's his problem. It should never be excused.

Sorry, for the slight rant, but victim blaming is a red rag to me.

[Kas]

Nobody is victim blaming. It's a reality we live in and you cannot compare this to violence towards a GG from a man.

People (men) get their ass kicked for small things. I go clubbing a lot and I see fights almost every weekend. We may see ourselves as a woman, but the other guys see us as men and some men fight. We can all wear our ruby-coloured glasses and pretend we live in a magical kingdom acting like Disney princesses where nobody get hurts or abused, but like I said, this is reality. Maybe not for everybody, but certainly for some.

[donnalee]

I think there is confusion in this thread between morals vs taste and judgement.
If someone's choice of dress is not yours, it is not immoral to choose not to dress that way, but it is rude (not immoral) to comment on it. Your choice of dress is yours, but it should be tempered with the reality of possible reactions to your choice, ie judgement.

[LaurenS]

That is your liberal mindset based on feelings not rational thinking.

Nicole and Kelly: you’re both liberals?!?!

oh, the horror! Freaks!

Get back in your box, but keep that label on you so we will know in the future, ok?

:)

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I go clubbing a lot and I see fights almost every weekend.

I would not feel comfortable in an environment in which fights constantly break out, femme or homme. I frequent watering holes occasionally - some of them kinda rough - and have only seen one fight in the past 10 years. These places are filled with men, so I am not sure about “and men fight”. More accurate would be “some men fight”, and I prefer not to associate or hang out with those types.

my ruby-colored glasses seem to be working quite well for me. :)

[Tracii G]

Being a roadie for a band I know that alcohol and testosterone don't always mix well.
I have been in literally 1000s of clubs and some nights its cool some nights you might be in the middle of a tussle that you had nothing to do with.
Fights happen outside most of the time or right by the front or back door.
Charlotte aggression is not a good thing and I agree with what you said BUT I am not letting the forum members down by being honest in fact I just might save a person life by making them aware its not all rosy and accepting out in public especially in a night club.
Look I know all about aggression I used to be the worst for it, I used intimidation, physical violence on people a lot.
You can sugar coat things all you want and coddle the masses but telling the truth and keeping someone safe with knowledge seems a more caring thing to do.

[Kas]

only seen one fight in the past 10 years. These places are filled with men, so I am not sure about “and men fight”. More accurate would be “some men fight”, and I prefer not to associate or hang out with those types.

Hi Lauren,

Unfortunately for my age group and my location, if you want to go out dancing to any kind of electronic music venue there is ALWAYS a fight/s. I have luckily not been in one myself but have been with friends who have. Drugs are bad.

Oh and I edited my post to say "some men" because you are correct.

[NicoleScott]

Ass kickings are all on you.



It's pretty hard to twist these words. It can only mean "it's your own fault if you get assaulted". You twist your own words by saying it means "be careful out there".

To the question - is it a fair comparison?
No, if the comparison is CDing to nudity. Yes, if you are comparing why - the internal drive that compels - to crossdress or go nude. And yes, if the comparison is to how the general public responds to each, which is eeewwwww.

[Krisi]

Tracii;

I seriously cannot believe you condone assault because of the way someone dresses.

Reading back through your posts , If a man hit on you and he turns out to be homophobic, do you really believe , you deserve an 'ass kicking' ?

Your statement basically justifies another persons right to forcefully impose their will over how you present yourself in public.

​I'm still shaking my head that anyone in this community can hold this opinion.

I cannot believe that you think what Tracii posted was "condoning assault". That's not what she posted.

The reality is, in many cases, people are treated by the way they present themselves. If you dress like a hooker, you will be treated as a hooker. Perhaps in your mind that's not fair, but once you leave your house it is reality.

Warning someone about this reality is not condoning it, it's exactly what it is; a warning.

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I guess there are two ways to look at it, you dress like a _______ so you must be a __________ and if someone does ____________ to you then you deserve it.

Or you wear provocative clothing to express your inner provocateur and people should mind their own damn business.

What people "should" do and what they actually do are sometimes very different things.

[Charlotte7]

Look I know all about aggression I used to be the worst for it, I used intimidation, physical violence on people a lot.


And, when you were doing this, when you were using 'physical violence on people a lot' whose fault was it they were being violated, yours or theirs? And why?

[Krisi]

Blaming the victim of an assault because of how they're dressed is a sorry attitude. Do you blame rape victims because their skirts were too short? Should your ass be kicked because someone doesn't like your sexual preference?

Again, reality kicks in here. Dress like a hooker, you will be treated as a hooker. You are out in public, not prancing around your living room. It was a fair and realistic warning.

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Victim blaming is never correct as it gives permission to abusers and aggressors. The fault always lies with the abuser or the aggressor. There is no circumstance in which anyone deserves an 'ass kicking'. To say so not only lets everyone on this forum down, but it lets every abused, beaten, harrassed, oppressed, and every other negatively treated GG down. We are all in this together and we should all support each other. This is not woolly, 'liberal' wish thinking, it's how the world is. If I present as a tart in a club and a man assaults me, and discovers a package that he wasn't expecting, that's his problem for initiating the assault. When he hits out, he's not hitting at the person who deceived him, he's blindly lashing out at his own inadequacy. That's his problem. It should never be excused.

Sorry, for the slight rant, but victim blaming is a red rag to me.

Nobody is blaming the victim. Reality is far different from this "safe" web forum.

Remember as a child, other kids would stick a sign on someone that said "Kick Me" and the other kids would kick him until he discovered the sign? Dressing like a hooker is a sign.

[NicoleScott]

Dress like a hooker, you will be treated as a hooker.

I can agree with this. Someone may hit on you, believing you're a hooker, if you dress a certain way. It's not a crime to hit on someone (nor to dress like a hooker). But when the hitter's expectations are not met, either by being rebuffed or discovering you're a guy, he is not justified in kicking your ass. Assault is a crime, and is not justified by another's clothing choices.
I'm surprised that some people can't see the difference.
A "kick me" sign does not justify kicking someone.

[Jean 103]

Is what you are trying to say is you want the general public to accept you?

I have achieved this. Not by trying to blend, not by going to gay bars, not by hanging out with others that are like me. I have done this by going to the same place over and over. Meeting people and talking with them. Sometimes at great length. Making friends with everyday people. The girls have taken me in and I'm treated as one of them. They have given me guidance. I'm part of the in crowd. This has taken a huge investment of time on my part. Now it's like a snowball effect. So when I'm out like at the bar I go to all the time, my friends are all around me. Others that don't know me see me interacting with my friends and others I know. It's a seen where it all looks normal. That's because for me it is. It has not all been easy, and my existence there has been challenged. It didn't work because I'm friends with the manager, bartenders, and the owner knows me too. I don't drink much, this is something else I had to deal with. That is, why am I there. Now they know I'm there to socialize, play pool, dance , just have fun.

If you were to walk into my bar I can guaranty that you will not be asualted. Acceptance would be on you, but me along with others have paved the way.

[Charlotte7]

Krisi, I have to disagree with you. There is a fair amount of victim blaming going on here. We all have to remember that we live in the real world and that in the real world there are real women. And attitudes like 'Dress like a hooker, you will be treated lie a hooker' and 'Dressing like a hooker is a sign' are the kind of comments that put these real women at risk. The reason for this is that it offers an excuse (a weakly limp and wholly unsatisfactory excuse ) for attacking women. Attacking someone because of how they present in public is wrong in every way and should be confronted at every opportunity and confront it, I will.

[Minnietheminx]

Personally as a GG i think everyone has the right to dress how they want and no matter how they look even hookers nobody has the right to touch! maybe comment yes but as for touching nobody has that right...A hooker is still a person at the end of the day and she provides a service for which you pay for. Until paid for you have no right to touch her the same as any other woman out there dressed provocatively or not.
As for going naked. Well we are brought up from an early age to see naked as a naughty thing...Stupid really as its natural. In third world countries they walk around naked with a baby hanging off their breasts and nobody sees it as naughty but here a woman gets a breast out to feed a baby and all hell breaks loose about how indecent it is!...and oddly people in the Western world will watch these documentaries and not see it as naughty....because they see it as their way of life and seen as just so but here it isnt...Odd that we class ourselves as more civilised and advanced yet we only perceive nakedness as something that is sexual.
Back in King Louis days men wore the wigs and makeup and heels....yet now as dressers you are seeking acceptance for dressing the same way...so how far have we come? Not far at all really if you look through history. We have taken backwards steps. Nudity was seen as art and beauty and put onto portraits ..now its seen as naughty and rude and something you see on porn sites...a generation now brought up on social media that portrays everything in a sexual manner. Sadly even the dressing side most will only see through some sites that are portraying guys dressed in videos up to all sorts of kinky stuff and up to most things you ladies wouldnt ever even consider in reality but thats all they are seeing. Its like ive said before i love latex but its portrayed on sleezy sites as something kinky and perverted yet there are companies producing such gorgeous couture outfits ....Society is never going to get to understand anything that is `Out of the norm` for them as long as all this social media keeps portraying it differently xx

[Tracii G]

I can agree with this. Someone may hit on you, believing you're a hooker, if you dress a certain way. It's not a crime to hit on someone (nor to dress like a hooker). But when the hitter's expectations are not met, either by being rebuffed or discovering you're a guy, he is not justified in kicking your ass. Assault is a crime, and is not justified by another's clothing choices.
I'm surprised that some people can't see the difference.
A "kick me" sign does not justify kicking someone.

Assault is a crime but some people don't care and will lash out anyway and commit the crime.
The kick me sign analogy lets expound on that for a bit. Hang a kick me sign on your back and see how many times you get kicked?
It doesn't matter if its right or wrong people are going to kick you because you gave them the idea and opportunity to do it.
My whole point is why bring trouble on yourself by dressing that way?

[Debra Russell]

Traci ...... a big AMEN.............................Debra

[Charlotte7]

Assault is a crime ... It doesn't matter if its right or wrong ... on yourself by dressing that way?

I find this attitude on this forum to be sad, and surprising, as it tries to explain away and even excuse (based solely on the fact that it happens) viloence which can only be transphobic in origin.

[docrobbysherry]

[Again, reality kicks in here. Dress like a hooker, you will be treated as a hooker. You are out in public, not prancing around your living room. It was a fair and realistic warning.]

Krisi, I believe either u r speaking from naievity or ignorance. If u dress like a hooker and hang out where hookers hang out? THEN, expect to be treated like one! There r trans hookers u know. One came to a T event in Vegas and I had a long talk with her.

I dress like a hooker often at clubs and bars. So do many of the other T's that attend. One monthly event is at Hamburger Mary's in a seedy area of Long Beach. Usual attendance is about 500. We don't expect to be treated like hookers and generally aren't by the GG's and men there.

[I can agree with this. Someone may hit on you, believing you're a hooker, if you dress a certain way. It's not a crime to hit on someone (nor to dress like a hooker). But when the hitter's expectations are not met, either by being rebuffed or discovering you're a guy, he is not justified in kicking your ass.----]

Nicole, you're forgetting one thing. Most of us don't pass. So, very few of us could pass as GG hookers. I'd wager most guys who hit on us KNOW we r T's or MIAD's. Those that come on to me certainly do!:heehee:

[Tracii G]

Ok kids a teaching moment has come and I can't be quiet about it.
Charlotte you are twisting my words by selecting only part of the sentences to fit your narrative stop that please.
I see what you are trying to do which is make me out to be the bad person again please stop that.
I have been a member of the trans and gay community for a long time and I have seen lots of hate trust me.
The fact that assault happens and the way you present yourself is the big elephant in the room which you refuse to acknowledge.
I am not advocating violence on anyone but you seem to be selectively disregarding the fact I said that more than once in previous posts.

[Charlotte7]

Tracii, all I am doing is diagreeing with you on the cause of this violence and what our response to it should be. As somebody said earlier, a GG woman should not be raped becaue she chose to wear a short skirt. In the same way, a transgender person should not get an 'ass kicking' (your phrase that I object to) because they have dressed as a tart.

[Jean 103]

If you are going to a place where there are fights, where it takes like three or more bouncers to maintain control, maybe you should find somewhere else to hangout.

[Gillian Gigs]

We are always going to have people who are going to want to be the "Judge, Jury and Executioner" in everything. Unfortunately moral issues will tend to be at the forefront of this category. Personally if someone wants to dress and act like a tart, that is their choice. I would prefer not to see, or hear about it, but that can be difficult, so I will have look the other way, or not listen.

[Stephanie47]

Rape is nothing more than pure aggression. How a woman dresses or does not dress has nothing to do with it. Read the newspapers and you'll find perverts raping old grandmothers in their eighties. I know a man who was raped in Vietnam by a pervert. Perverts will prey on whoever is available.

I am not a woman. I am a man who likes to wear or needs to wear women's clothing on occasion. I am a heterosexual married to one woman for my entire life. I can only relate to how I feel when I dress as a man to please myself and my wife. The perception my wife has of me matters to me. She lets me know when I have strayed over the line, as, "You're not walking down to the mailbox wearing those jeans, when the seat of your pants is showing through them!" My female clothes reflect my taste as in "age appropriate." I suppose that means what the ordinary woman would wear to the venue; church, grocery shopping, soliciting sex from strangers.

What's really absent from this conversation is the input from the GG's who are probably lurking in the shadows. Why did you wear that to the office? Why was the assistant principal sending girls home to change when mini skirts were eight inches above the knee? Or the principal who sent a girl home because her collar bone was showing and this would incite the boys? It seems there is a moral judgement to the clothing or lack thereof.

There are too many people who frown upon cross dressers because they're viewpoint is cross dressing is a choice and sinful behavior. They reject medical authorities when it comes to transsexual men and women. I have no control over them. I may try to educate them.

Even for those of you who dress in club wear AT a club the question I have is the "why." When you say five inch heels, a short short mini skirt, fishnet hosiery makes you feel sexy, who do you want to impress or turn on and what do you want it to come to? I will readily admit when my wife was a dynamite totally sexy woman in her twenties and I was the six foot two, 175 pound, still military build, wavy blond hair, I knew darn well where we were ending up at the end of the night. My wife did not wear that attire when she went to her job on Monday morning.

Tracii is right to some extent certain attire rightly or wrongly conveys different things to different people. People have to be aware of their surroundings and unfortunately that some people will act wrongly. Anyone here from Alabama?

[AllieSF]

Tracii,

I think this part of your original answer is what is causing the rebuttals to your post.

"Ass kickings are all on you."

The way that I read your words, and maybe the others did too is, "If you dress like a tart and you get an ass kicking it is your fault.", with ".... your fault" being the key.

What the others are saying and I agree, is that no one has a right to hurt anyone for any reason, in this case being a man in sexy women's clothing. The fault lies with the aggressor who attacks someone. As you know and probably agree, one should be able to dress how they like, whether someone else likes it or not. I read your posts in this thread as just a warning to others to be careful how you dress and where you go dressed. However, as some read the words, they can be interpreted as you are blaming the person for being attacked. All people should be safe living their lives as they please and should not be blamed for their actions if they did nothing wrong, for whatever they are doing. Dressing as a sexy woman is not wrong. However, being careful where you go dressed like that is recommended.

By, in effect, blaming the victim one is saying (intentionally or not) that they should limit their freedom and give the right to "kick ass" if you go into their territory. The blaming the woman for their own rape because she wore a short skirt indirectly gives the rapist some justification to keep doing it to others. The fault lies with the rapist and also with the police and court systems that in the past have used those similar type of comments to lessen the gravity of the crime, when they should have been aggressively pursuing and prosecuting the rapists to the fullest extent of the law, which they have not been doing, though it is improving. That is one of the purposes of classifying some crimes as hate crimes in order to encourage those same police and court systems to do their job as they are supposed to do in order to send out that all important message to the rapists and ass kickers that what they do is against the law and will be punished. Several police departments here in California had hundreds of rape test kits in boxes that had never been sent out to be processed to determine the DNA or whatever they use that could help identify the rapist. That failure to do their job sends out the message that there is little chance of being identified from the mandatory rape test kits because the authorities never process them. So, they keep on doing that as the need arises. All that needs to change and sometimes that starts with changing the words we use and how we use them.

[Tracii G]

Rape is never justified and there are laws against it because it is wrong and morally repugnant.
Does that stop people from doing it? No it does not.
That is the point I have been trying to make but you all are bashing me over it and say I condone violence and rape when I never uttered those words.
As much as some CDs love to wear sexy revealing outfits is it really the smart thing to do if you (a CD) are going to a club alone?
So actually you can blame both parties The dude for being a jerk and the (CD lady) for dressing like a tart.
The best way to stay out of a potentially bad situation is not put yourself in to one.
If you can't get that concept in your mind I can't help you.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Traccii;

This has nothing to do with twisting words, the issue is that what was posted is simply not acceptable.

As a teaching moment I suggest watching:
. A Girl Like Me: The Gwen Araujo Story about a transgender teenager who was murdered after acquaintances discovered that she had male genitalia.
. Boys Don't Cry: The Brando Teena

The OP titled this "A Moral Dilemma". One of the hardest things about the internet is that sometimes we post things that are not right. Then we have to make a choice when we are called on the carpet , Do we accept that we maybe posted the wrong thing or in the wrong manner, that would be taking the high road , that IS a learning moment. or do we defend our erroneous words and insist that we had our words "twisted out of context" that would be taking the low road. It's not a teachable moment or a learning moment.

I do apologize if I mis-construed your meaning, but as others have observed what you wear should have no bearing on how you are treated as a person.

I've gotten into the habit of reading what i write 3 or 4 times before hitting the enter key.

[Tracii G]

Kelly it should not matter how you are dressed I agree BUT it does matter thats what I am trying to say OMG!!!!!
I'm not saying you can't dress the way you want just use some common sense. If the venue is safe by all means dress how you want.
At least some here understood what I was trying to say.
The other bunch jumped on me like rabid TG activists.
It seems like some are on a different planet sometimes and I can't drive a point home even if I had an air hammer.
I'm not some anti trans bigot hell fire I'm trans and gay so I am on your side people.
Maybe its just too sensitive a topic for me to comment on so I stand by what I said and you can assign whatever road you wish to it.
I'm done.

[GretchenJ]

First off, this has gone WAYYYYY off topic to the original post, so unless it’s gets back on track, I am going to be forced to close it.

With that, let me give my opinion as to dressing like a tart vs conservative or age appropriate.
There are two forces at play that are in conflict with each other.

On the one hand, like it or not, when we venture out, we are representing our entire community. When we dress in an “age” or “location” (e.g. a sequined gown at the supermarket), we may attract more or a negative outcome then those who embrace a more casual or classic look ( although this does not guarantee that you may come across basic ass clowns). Albeit distasteful for me to admit, the more we assimilate with the general public, the easier the path to acceptance.

Now for the other side of the equation. Those of us who have acknowledged this gift (and I am being serious - I do consider it a gift) later in life, are going through their second puberty. So they never got the chance to wear the short juniors party dress, a bikini, a halter top, because at 16,17,18 they were wearing T-shirt’s and jeans. So, if they are going out, why go out and jeans and and a top initially - what’s the difference in their opinion.

So basically, at the end of it all, I kinda see both sides of this.

[kimdl93]

I don’t see this as a debate that needs to be so contentious. Its asking if our ‘self expression’ is any different from or equivalent to those who would diverge from societal clothing norms in other ways. In direct response to the OP, our laws and customs do not punish people for dressing in the attire of another gender. Recent efforts to reimpose such strictures have gone down to defeat, even here in TX.

However, community standards for what is decent attire do remain somewhat in force. So, walking down the street naked will still likely get you arrested, whereas dressing as a ‘tart’ is unlikely to evoke much response, unless certain parts of anatomy are openly displayed. So,in my appraisal the analogy fails, at least in our present culture in our time. There is no moral dilemma. Try cross dressing in Saudi Arabia and your experience may be rather different.

Where the discussion ran off the rails is when the changed the topic from personal vs societal norms to personal safety and sexual aggression. The OP wasn’t about sexual violence. No one is even remotely implying that anyone invites or deserves to be victimized.

[Sami Brown]

Wow, folks! I certainly had no intention of starting so much consternation with my questions!

I think everybody has made their points about provoking unintended behavior. Let me see whether I can summarize in a way with which most of us can agree.


I believe there is complete agreement that violence in the form of assault can never be justified.
Although assault is not justifiable, one can put themselves into a situation where the likelihood of becoming an assault victim increases, sometimes by a little and sometimes by a lot.
Sometimes, myself included, we make mistakes in what we say or write. What is said can be interpreted differently than the point we were trying to make.
Because of the possibility of our intention being misunderstood, we need to take the time and make the effort to consider how others might interpret what we say before we put in out there and actually say it. Once it is out there, it is hard to unsay it, especially when it is not what we meant.
Which brings me back to my original reason for this question...


As I said in my original post, I was not sure whether what I almost said in a different post was going to be appropriate. That is why I sought opinion, to help me decide how I would have said it if I wasn't confused. I have now reached a conclusion, which I will try to explain.


To the question - is it a fair comparison?
No, if the comparison is CDing to nudity. Yes, if you are comparing why - the internal drive that compels - to crossdress or go nude. And yes, if the comparison is to how the general public responds to each, which is eeewwwww.

This explanation, Nicole, perfectly explains away what I was calling my moral dilemma.

Someone else brought up the illegality of public nudity, which is also a factor that we crossdressers do not have to deal with (for now).

So while I share with nudists the inner desire to present as I like (in my case, to blend in as much as possible), and I also share with them the distaste it causes for many people, I do have the advantage over the nudist that my expression is legal currently.

So my advice in that other post would have been, "Have a good time on your outing. Just use good judgment in how you dress in order to lessen your worries about something bad happening."

I believe saying it this way puts across the point I wanted to make without being judgmental about the actual attire. My original advice, had I said it, would have been "Have a good time on your outing. Just don't dress like a ****." I had the same intent both ways, but I was bothered enough by the second that I didn't post it.

Thanks to all for your input! You ladies are great, and I appreciate everyone's passion for discussion.

Sami

[AllieSF]

I am glad that you can now answer your own question. My answer may have been along the lines of, "Wear what you want, have a good time and take responsibility for your choices and actions."

Even if people agree on an overall point of view, there are still a lot of variations with the actual detail, like how short is too short, how revealing is too revealing, and so on. Someone who says to dress age appropriate, then has to define what that means to them, no cleavage, no short skirts, collars to the chin, and so on, or all the opposite. For those reasons, I stick with what I say above. I realize that I cannot judge another, because someone will judge me for something else. Freedom of speech (burning the flag of the USA is protected here) includes to me how one presents themselves. I do not have to live with the consequences of another's decisions regarding how they dress, they do though!!

[sometimes_miss]

IMO hookers look trashy .
They dress for their job. Why is that a problem? Like any other women, some hookers look trashy, some look pretty. The old saying, there's someone for everyone.

[Tracii G]

It was just my opinion sometimes miss if you like them thats OK.

[Kelly DeWinter]

It still amazes me the number of posts in this thread with "dress like a hooker, be treated like a hooker"

I still cannot get my mind around what that even means.

Why not apply the same standards to me ?

[CarlaWestin]

Its like ive said before i love latex but its portrayed on sleezy sites as something kinky and perverted yet there are companies producing such gorgeous couture outfits ....Society is never going to get to understand anything that is `Out of the norm` for them as long as all this social media keeps portraying it differently xx

I agree with Minnie wholeheartedly. I've never met any men that dress for the fun of it, except maybe for Halloween. As a CD, I have many different attention attracting outfits and I'm always aware of my surroundings.