Why is it so hard to "pass"?

[AttentiveHusband]

I'm very very new to this (just experimenting a little with underdressing). A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

It seems to me that with a wig, clothes, and makeup, you can look female. Is the hard part how you carry yourself, act, speak, etc? Or is there give-aways in the face even with makeup?

[Linda E. Woodworth]

It's the "whole" package.

With the right wig, clothes and makeup you can physically pass but this IS NOT as easy as you make it sound. Just think of all the genetic women (GG) who do a pathetic job at their makeup, clothing choices or taking care of their hair.

Now comes the even harder part of moving, talking and acting as a woman. Men and women are very different physiologically. You have to go against a lifetime of habits and relearn how to move while doing everyday tasks. Then you have to NEVER fall out of character while dressed. Oh, and if you're in the closet you have to be able to turn this one and off with the flip of a mental switch or you'll out yourself one way or the other.

However; be that as it may it doesn't stop any of us from still trying. Perfection in our feminine appearance may be unobtainable but it still remains the goal for many of us. Myself included.

Good Luck

[Lisa Gerrie]

Looking female in 2 dimensions (mirrors, photos) is the easiest part. Adding the 3rd dimension is harder, and the 4th dimension (time: movement, behavior) is even harder. Not to mention obstacles like voice, physical features like an Adam's Apple...

[barbie lanai]

I have worn high heels when ever I could since a kid. Thought the heels made me walk like a woman. That is, until I had the idea of video taping myself in them. Just a clod in heels. It is hard to pass, at least for me.

[BrendaPDX]

You have some great answers very early in this thread. I can't state it as well but I will give it a try. We are men. We are physically built differently and most of the time psychologically different. I can get clocked just stepping out of the car, it is how I carry myself and my attitude toward the outside world. I can pass in a photo (OK sometimes) but not so well in the wild. There is so much more than clothes, makeup, hair/wig, hose, shoes and how we walk in them; it is how we present yourself to the outside world and how we see ourselves that makes the difference to me. Don't let me dissuade you from trying; trying is half the fun, perfecting the nuances, changing your attitude, how you hold your hands when walking, too much to mention. Oh like others will tell you get a camera that you can use to take videos of yourself, it is surprising to see yourself through different eyes. These are such fun and enlightening times for you, enjoy them. Brenda

[Heidi Stevens]

It is, as Mich Salem pointed out, multi dimensional. I have made permanent body changes to help me present as a woman. I am on prescribed hormones after a round of psychotherapy to confirm I was transgender. I had my beard lasered off to remove my shadow. I’ve taken several classes on how to present and dress as a lady. I’ve had professional help for clothing and wigs. Getting an attitude of who you are and the confidence to present it is just as important as anything else. I’ve done everything short of going full time, I have done everything you can do to pass as a woman. And still I can get “clocked”! Even Transgender ladies that have had complete sexual reassignment surgery can have problems passing.

It’s a total package thing. You may take a good picture, but bringing that character into public is a whole new world.

[Krisi]

You have gotten good responses so far. I would just ad that for some of us, it's easier than for others. If you are short with a slight build and small hands and feet, you have a far better chance of pulling it of than if you are built like Hulk Hogan.

Then again, you have to define "passing". Walking down the street or through the mall without drawing attention to yourself is one thing while sitting in a bar and having guys buy you drinks and dancing with you is quite another. There are males who an pull it off but it's quite rare and they have devoted their lives to it.

[Robertacd]

Why is it so hard to pass, you ask? Have you ever looked in a mirror? Have you ever looked at the physical differences between male and female humans?

[Sara Jessica]

^^^ Exactly!

Before mastering things like walk, grace, decorum, etc, you have to honestly assess how you compare from a physical standpoint.


Here is a partial list of what must be overcome. If you rate well on all of these, then you won the genetic lottery (at least in our world).

hand size
arm length
shoulder width
facial structure (including size of nose, ears and the distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose)
hair (atop your head, allowing to avoid use of a wig)
hair (on your face which affects how much makeup is required)
hips, or lack thereof
tush, or lack thereof
legs
feet size
height
frame
weight

Did I miss any?

This is why it is so difficult to catch that unicorn known as passing. It is also the reason why aspiring to achieve the intangibles such as grace is important to help us get by that first, second or even third glance before it becomes evident as to who/what we are.

[rachael.davis]

Lack of full commitment to femininity - I got a brilliant critique from my GG big sister over the summer, I'm not trying to move "like a man", speak "like a man" etc - even when presenting as male.
Scariest decision I've made so far

[Tracii G]

Attentive Husband you got some great answers so far.
There is so much more to passing than you can imagine.
It is the whole package concept and very few of us have everything.
So I challenge you put on a wig some make up and womens clothes and take some pics of yourself and see if you pass.

[Sarah Doepner]

I've found the best results are found when I'm around people who are totally distracted by other things in their lives and not paying attention to me. That situation and my best efforts at creating a physical and social version of my female self often allows me to wander around not feeling like I'm in the spotlight.

Then on the other hand, I pass all the time as a man when that just may not be the case.

I'll try to just enjoy the ride since I can't seem to be myself regardless of who I'm offering to the world.

[Pat]

A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

Try it. Let us know how it goes. ;)

[Barbara Jo]

There a difference in presenting as a male wearing female clothes as some sort of a costume... and being completely at ease wearing the clothes that females wear because you are so used to them and you really feel female
You must believe that they are the clothes etc that you are supposed to wear..
In other words, you have to be completely at ease wearing female clothes in public. It has to be second nature for you. :)

[Rachael Leigh]

Lots of great answers here but women have a lifetime of being women but we don’t have that advantage not to mention
the obvious physical differences that has been mentioned.
I for one who is all but fulltime know when I’m out I’m clocked most times but I do get treated like a women in many places
I hope that means at least my actions look female.
I try and learn everyday things that will help me pass better and it will take me a lot of time but I’m working on it
Rachael

[Sallee]

I wish I knew. I tend to pass pretty well most of the time but I fail in the walk for sure I have been called mam numerous times and even fooled the lady in a wig shop but when I see videos of me walking its a dead give away with or without heels and of course my voice can be a give away. I use to go to a bar up in the high desert which was a red neck bar in the country. There was CD who frequented it and passed real well but her voice was a give away. I remember the first time i heard her talk surprised because I had no idea she was a he.

[Meghan4now]

^^^ Exactly!

Before mastering things like walk, grace, decorum, etc, you have to honestly assess how you compare from a physical standpoint.


Here is a partial list of what must be overcome. If you rate well on all of these, then you won the genetic lottery (at least in our world).

hand size
arm length
shoulder width
facial structure (including size of nose, ears and the distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose)
hair (atop your head, allowing to avoid use of a wig)
hair (on your face which affects how much makeup is required)
hips, or lack thereof
tush, or lack thereof
legs
feet size
height
frame
weight

Did I miss any?

This is why it is so difficult to catch that unicorn known as passing. It is also the reason why aspiring to achieve the intangibles such as grace is important to help us get by that first, second or even third glance before it becomes evident as to who/what we are.

Good list, don't forget brow line and bossing, chin size, cheek bones, finger length, joint flex, hairy ears, waist size, torso length.

And then, as mentioned, motion related to physical differences and learned behavior, and top it off with VOICE :0

[Helen_Highwater]

It seems to me that with a wig, clothes, and makeup, you can look female.

That's just the start of the physical transformation. Add to that waistline, wider hips, more rounded rear, a bust. Then add really good makeup skills; I've seen GG's who without makeup are real plain Jane's. With the slap on they become eye catchingly attractive.

Even if you can get all the stars to align as others have said getting the mannerisms right takes both good observation and then practice and more practice. If you then get those thing right unless you're gifted with the right sort of facial bone structure you're still going to struggle to truly pass.

What 99.9% of us who do go out have come to realise is we can blend. Do a sufficiently good job at getting the package right that to the casual observer we're just a face in the crowd. So if you're thinking I'll only go out once I can 100% pass then welcome to the great indoors.

There's also one thing that goes beyond the physical, confidence. If you can interact with SA's, bus drivers, those serving at table, whoever, without being at all self conscious then you'll be able to mingle with the muggles and forget about passing.

[DIANEF]

All great and very true answers, though once at work I was taking in a stock delivery, said 'THANKS MATE' (in the English manner) and wow, if looks could kill. I'm a girl SHE said and stormed off. I genuinely thought it was a guy! Should add I didn't really look at her that closely which was my bad.

[Alice B]

What counts is your own attitude and not what you think others might say. The world is full of a wide variety of looks, so how you feel about yourself is all that matters

[Jayne44C]

I have always thought and still do think, that from the neck up I can pass with the right make up and wig. However the rest of the criteria is too much to overcome.


P = Pass F =Fail


Here is a partial list of what must be overcome. If you rate well on all of these, then you won the genetic lottery (at least in our world).

hand size P
arm length F
shoulder width F
facial structure (including size of nose, ears and the distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose) P
hair (atop your head, allowing to avoid use of a wig) F
hair (on your face which affects how much makeup is required) P
hips, or lack thereof P
tush, or lack thereof P
legs P
feet size F
height F
frame F
weight F

[ClosetED]

I can look like pretty woman from a distance and for a camera. But interacting with the real world, a 6'7" person with 5" heels will stand out as abnormal, unless traveling with the girl's basketball team. But is most of our desires to pass in society, or just to make ourselves feel happy with how we view ourselves?
Makeup does a good job creating illusions for men and women - both will have trouble close up. But as others said, there are so many other things. Women smile more. And decades of fine tuning of small behaviors from other females. I know of a book where they realized it was a TG person from the way they swung their legs into the car-together as a female is taught, not as the male the person appeared.
Hugs, Ellen

[docrobbysherry]

I would turn many of the posters here around and ask them this:

How many women have u seen that don't pass? I've read many threads here about how GG women, "----come in all shapes and sizes". So, why is it that masculinely dressed and/or appearing women still pass?

Altho I have seen a few women I thot may have been trans, I've met 100's of T's at events around the country. I can't recall even one, no matter how fem she looked, that could pass 100% of the time!

I did spend an evening with one in Thailand that was so perfect in every way I'm sure she could pass anywhere, any time! But, I haven't met any Thai T's over here and caucasians r built differently.

[Ceera]

Going off the list that Sara Jessica posted, there are things you can do to compensate, but some you just have to live with. Attitude has a lot to do with it. How do you think a cisgender female basketball player deals with being 'too tall'? Or a large-boned cisgender woman deals with her heavy set frame? A male body usually can't be altered enough to pass for a 'typical female - if your measure for that is the pretty, young women you see on TV and in the movies. But almost any male body is still within the possible parameters for a cisgender female.

"Tells", and what you can do about them:
hand size - compensate with nicely done nails, in a feminine shape. Learn to hold your hands in ways that minimize their visual size.
arm length - You're tall, so you have long arms. So what?
shoulder width - Unfortunate, but some women do have wider shoulders than hips. Careful choices of clothing can help, and so can padding your hips to make the bottom a closer match to the top.
facial structure - Not much you can do here, short of surgery. But a good wig and the makeup trick called 'contouring' can alter the perception of how your face is shaped.
hair - use a good wig.
hair (on your face) - Shave carefully and often. Carry a razor for mid-day touch-ups. Use makeup to conceal beard shadow. Electrolysis or laser treatment to remove the beard.
hips, or lack thereof - Use hip pads.
tush, or lack thereof - Use butt pads.
legs - Shave the legs, wear at least a moderate heel. Stay in good physical shape.
feet size - Unfortunate, but some women do have big feet, too. Buy suitable shoes. Higher heels make the feet look smaller.
height - Some women are tall. Live with it and own it.
frame - As with shoulder width, just keep in mind that some women have similar bone structure. Wear clothes that complement your good points and downplay the bad ones. For example, if you have a belly, wear blouses that are not tucked in.
weight - I know cisgender women who weigh a lot more than I do. Diet and exercise aren't a bad idea, regardless of presentation mode.

Not mentioned by Sara:

Voice - Low pitch and high resonance: Hard to pass if you have a deep bass voice and sound like a football player or truck driver. There are courses you can take for feminizing a male voice, and they DO work. Singing skills help.
Voice - Speech patterns: Women use different phrases and different ways of saying things than men do. Observe cisgender women and emulate their patterns.
Body movement patterns - Women walk and move differently than men do. Observe cisgender women and emulate their patterns.
Male package bump - Hard to pass for cisgender female if you have a big lump in your pants or under your skirt. Tuck and use a gaff to hide the 'boys'. Believe it or not, even a well-hung male can tuck with a thong gaff and get away with a bikini swimsuit. I have done it!

We have a lot of 'tells' to overcome. But for many of us, they can be overcome, with effort. For some, certainly, no amount of effort will suffice. Each individual has to assess their own situation. And the final decision may just be, "I don't care if I pass, I want to be feminine and dress in women's clothes, and that's that! Who cares what anyone else thinks?"

[Stephanie47]

Forgetting the male voice which is probably the strongest evidence of a male I think it comes down to a presentation of the "entire package." I am shot down early on based upon my male frame, i.e., height (6 foot) and weight (200 lbs). The minds eye is going to read "unusual, out of the ordinary. To stay under the radar it is better to be around the more common female height of five foot four to five foot seven. Yes, I do see many very tall women; five ten and above. The sheer height draws my attention.

Then it comes to the face. My mind identifies women with softer features. And, men with more angular features. My mind suggests a cross dresser to fly under the radar the best would be a five foot seven over weight body. Why? Generally, overweight women have rounder faces which would conceal more angular bone structure and conceal a pronounced Adam's Apple. Weight will also conceal the lack of indentation of the expected female form. I think it is a given the male eye is attracted to their ideal woman which is not an overweight short person. It's unfortunate women falling into that body type do not attract men as easily because they may be great people. Such is life. Before anyone jumps on that statement, it is also the same for short overweight men.

Poise, as in walking like a woman is another giveaway. Or the lack of it. I've watched many Youtube videos of cross dressing men. Many look terrific, but, their movement is not what I would expect of a woman. It's how the person is holding a purse. The stride. Maybe the stride is governed by hip and pelvic bone structure. It also can be how a woman holds a coffee cup. Or sits with legs crossed or uncrossed. These a learned behavior which become automatic, while a cross dressing man must consciously replicate them.

Makeup skills? Frankly a dynamite looking woman needs zero makeup. My wife has always been beautiful. Great eyes and smile. Totally no need for makeup at age 66.

[LeannS]

I dated a trans gal once she had srs and from looking at her she was female 100 percent UNTIL she walked and that is what tipped me off she walked like a guy.
Wish I had her number right now I could use some pointers lol

Leann

[Pat]

How many women have u seen that don't pass? I've read many threads here about how GG women, "----come in all shapes and sizes". So, why is it that masculinely dressed and/or appearing women still pass?

I totally love the question, but it's semantically flawed. Those (natal) women in your example don't "pass" the "are." Any standard you come up with that fails to include them as women is automatically invalid because they are women.

[leannejacobs]

Lots of good points here but tbh at the end of the day we are male by birth, unless you're Asian and have lots of money for surgery your maleness will never disappear completely, we can try very hard with make up and nice fitting clothes but you'll always find that even a woman in sweat pants and a baggy tshirt will almost always look more feminine than you.
I'm cursed with excessive height, my biggest give away by far, I like how feminine I can appear in the mirror and I feel I have the correct moves while walking in heels, I've been out lots of times and usually get clocked by a few, thankfully I've not had any bad reactions.
My advice is work with what you have and be happy, watch other women and work on your mannerisms, it takes time.
Don't ever expect to fool everyone, there's that old cliche "you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time" it's very true.

[Robertacd]

I would turn many of the posters here around and ask them this:

How many women have u seen that don't pass?

Sure but any GG on their worst day, still looks more feminine than me on my best day.

Go to the picture gallery and take an HONEST look. There's lot of us that would pass at first glance. But look closely and you can see the "man face" coming through.

Now if you were to see them in person you also may notice the man hands, shoulders wider than their hips. Sure there are GG's that are "top heavy" but it is usually one size difference. You don't see many GG's that wear a size 14 jacket and a size 10 skirt.

[Sarasometimes]

One I did not see is the wider space between your hips gives cis females that natural hip sway. Behavior wise, the expressiveness of the face when talking and smiling.

Ultimate test of passing, able to walk right past 6 to 8 teenage girls at the mall and have none of them read you! They are so tuned into appearances, they're brutal!

[carolyn todd]

Go to your local mall or shopping centre and sit on a bench look at all the women that pass you (DON'T STARE AT THEM)what they are wearing most of the time they are wearing jeans or trouser, how they walk, what they look like, does the women look like MIAD, you just need to look at women in what they do!.
take some pictures of yourself dress or do a video of yourself, look at make up tip on youtube have a go at doing your make up.
and if you can do all the things the girls have said you have to have the confidence to have a go to do what you want to do.
if you want to ask a question ask one or all of us will answer the question ?.
GOOD LUCK
Carolyn

[Beverley Sims]

As you have read a whole range of variables come into the equation and if you can improve on about fifty percent of them you will make it.

You have heard the saying.... If it walks like a duck.........

Well you get what I mean.

Lots of luck with your practice and all the good advice you have been given here.

[Teresa]

AttentiveH,
Many have jumped in with useful answers but I feel we are answering in the dark, point one age makes a difference and we don't know that also you don't say why you wish to pass , are you still in the closet and gazing in the mirror and hoping or have you been out and mingled to find what reaction you get.

OK none of us will ever pass 100% , so I'm afraid you can forget that one, we have too many signals that portray our maleness . The point is forget about passing , dress as you choose but remember the convincing benchmark is not to stand out, choose the right clothes for the right situation, even a GG in heels and mini skirt will stand out when pushing a trolley round the supermarket or collecting the kids from school.

The nicest compliment I've received was from some very good friends in a bridal shop , they said I made a convincing woman which is more than I ever expected when I started CDing .

[Ressie]

"You can fool some of the people some of the time" - people that aren't paying attention for example. But we can attract a lot of attention depending on our presentation. Blending well partly means dressing in a way that doesn't draw attention. Drawing very little attention decreases other people noticing those give away details. As a result, one blending well will pass to more people.

Those of us that strive to pass have to use tricks to cover or camouflage those details the best we can. Women are softer in general. Mens' arms and legs have muscle that can be seen easily when bare. Some men are born with more fem features which gives them a better chance of passing than other men. Those that are most passable have probably had surgeries and/or hormone treatments.

The easiest way to pass is to go out at night, away from lights, and never within 50 feet of other people!

[Tracii G]

I agree Ressie well said.
I really don't care all that much about passing because once people get to know me if I go in a place a lot passing doesn't make any difference.
I'm not trying to prove anything just trying to blend and be myself.

[Jodie_Lynn]

" Why is it so hard to "pass"? "

Because the football gets slippery in the snow?

[Judy-Somthing]

Even at my best 40 years ago, I could only pass at night and from a distant of least 30 ft.
If you get to the point of fully passing you'll get a cut in pay! LOL

[AttentiveHusband]

First off thank you for all the answers. Very enlightening.

Second, as to the questions about me, all I'm interested in at present is under dressing. But reading here it was a common thread that it's so difficult to pass and I was curious. I saw a person at workout the other day - and I don't know if the were male or female. Which lead me to thinking if someone is dressing in a way that it's not clear, and I can't tell from glancing at them from a couple of feet away, then I assumed passing wouldn't be that hard.

Also, read an article recently that if a man and woman are approaching each other and there's limited space, the woman always moves out of the way. These women as an experiment didn't and would stop when the approaching man was three feet away and... Some of the men would walk right in to them. Others would stop at the last second very confused. So I do get that there's a lot of innate behavior that has to be learned.

[Teresa]

Jayne,
According to your list I'm more on the pass side than fail.

I'm 37" bust , 31" waist and 37" hips, and weigh 147 lbs, height 5' 7", good legs , shoe size 8 UK . Facial shape would pass, my daughter thinks I look like my sister . I don't use lower padding but need a little assistance on the bust to give me my shape.

OK my fails are voice , and large hands but I've noticed some women have shovels for hands like mine and I'm not too concerned about the voice .

I accept that's as good as it gets and for my age I'm happy and comfortable to be out and about , if I had full transition I'm not sure how different I would look or feel inside .

Do I pass as a woman NO not entirely , do I pass as Teresa , I guess I do and that will do fine for me .

[Aunt Kelly]

I'm very very new to this (just experimenting a little with underdressing). A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

In a word? Evolution. 200,000 years of it has resulted in certain things being hard-wired in our brains, like picking up on gender markers, some obvious and some so subtle that most of us couldn't name them. With enough skill, practice and composure, some of us will escape notice, but as soon as one of those markers doesn't fit in with the rest of the picture, the game is up. Our brain starts analyzing all those other markers and the TG person has been made. With enough scrutiny, almost any of us can be made. Yes, even a post-op TS, though I'd hazard to say that for many TS's "passing" is not the "accomplishment" it is for CD's. I should probably let someone with more cred speak to that, so I will say, again, that "passing" is a myth. The best you can hope for is to blend.

For me, blending has two parts: appearance and bearing. An appearance which blends, that is to say one which avoids drawing undue attention by observing conventions of style, is certainly important ...and as a topic here has been done to death. Bearing and deportment however, seem to be overlooked often. You can nail the appearance but if you don't carry yourself in a manner consistent with the rest of the presentation, you've activated that automatic scrutiny in the observers. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not one who even blends well, but I am a keen observer of people and behavior. Seeing that "OMG, that's a man" look is a common occurrence for me, but if I maintain my composure and don't act like the male they've just spotted (or worse, like some panicked, guilty weirdo), far more often than not, people will "play along"; will treat me as the lady I am presenting.

I don't know why that truth is so hard to believe, but from endless accounts here, it clearly is. Now, that's not to say that there are not places where being made is not a risk. There are, but you can be a victim in most of those places, regardless of your gender presentation. Those places don't include most well-lit gas stations and convenience stores, with security cameras on every corner. They don't include most stores, restaurants, movie theaters or <insert business here>. Sure, you might get the occasional smirk or gape-mouthed stare, but if you're afraid of that, this going out thing is probably not for you.

Hugs,


Kelly

[Becky Blue]

Great question, I am going to take a slightly different view to most of this thread. Firstly I don't believe it is that difficult to pass, depending on what your definition of passing is. If passing means fooling everyone so that no matter what you do or wherever you go no one would ever realise you are a guy, well yes I agree thats almost impossible, voice is the most obvious giveaway as is the Adam's Apple. BUT if you call passing going about your business mostly being unnoticed, well that can be pretty easy. I call that blending.

Careful dressing in the right clothes to match our shape etc.. , possibly some good shape wear, great makeup and a really good wig enable many of us to cover up and present a mostly female outlook, enough to blend in and 'pass'.

Last year I went shopping at a large mall in Melbourne, in two shops I saw the slight look of surprise from the SA when i spoke, up to that point they thought i was a woman, did I pass? IMO yes I did until i spoke... clearly a lot of practice of my female voice is needed...

[Tracii G]

Take a look at Caitlyn Jenner all the money and surgeries she has had done she still has a male voice and gender markers that look male.
I can look at her and to me she doesn't pass.

[docrobbysherry]

Saying that blending and passing r the same is like saying an eagle and flying United r the same-----:brolleyes:

[faltenrock]

I really don't care anymore whether I pass or not. I think I pass in 80-90% on the street or elsewhere. As soon as I start talking to people I won't pass anymore - do I care? NO. We are who we are, it's only about us, not about the others. As long as you feel great, beautiful and well dressed, that's what counts for me.

[Charlotte7]

Actually, I think that we don't pass because we have a binary gender system. In western culture, at birth we are all assigned as boy or girl, and this largely is done on the examination of external sex organs. In reality, gender preference, and by that I mean the behaviour we start to exhibit when we first become aware of gender differences (and even before this) plays no part in how this society, as a whole, views gender. In their eyes we remain boy or we remain girl. If we cross that boundary then we are considered an oddity. The acceptability of that (to the world at large) is slowly improving but we are still regarded as odd. As has been said before in this thread, even very convincing, even very wealthy and high profile TS (and TG) don't fully pass, sometimes on very close inspection. So, maybe, and I don't propose this as a one size fits all solution, (the TG umbrella is very large), maybe what some of us need is not to attempt to fully pass, as we know that we never can. Maybe, instead of passing, we should more "present" and by that I mean accept that we are who we are and we look as we do, but that this is how we wish to be seen and known. I suppose that I'm sort of advocating and step beyond being a pure MIAD, but instead being a (made up word warning) "girlman". Now, ths idea isn't as far fetched as it may seem, as there are a number of cultures around the world that are not purely binary and most cultures have had a more than two gender system at some point in their history - remember, up until not very long ago (150 - 200 years ago) it was not uncommon for boys in England to wear a dress until they were 'breeched' at any age between say 5 and 8. Yes, it's true, to some extent, that there were practical sanitary reasons for this, but it goes to show that there is room for an additional way of looking at the gender system we have and extending it beyond the two gender system that we have in the west. Examples of this third gender which still exist (and there are others) are the Muxes in parts of Mexico and the Fa'afafine in Samoa. But, do I expect wester culture to change and for a third gender to become accpeted anytime soon? Not really there are too many millennia of tradition to overturn. So, at the end of the day many of us are stuck in a limbo land, too masculine ever to pass and not fully accepted by a two gender society. I suppose it's something that we just have to bear and make the best of it was we can. For those of you who can pass, fair play to you, good luck and all the best.

[ellbee]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet...?


But, ummm... Hormones & chromosomes?? :heehee:

[GretchenM]

In support groups I have met a lot of trans people of all types from barely trans to fully transitioned. I can recall only one that really did pass. She transitioned quite young and also had about $150,000 worth of surgeries. Heather was quite good looking, a knockout when dressed to the hilt. The last remaining tiny hints of that Y chromosome were only visible if you got to know her, but even then the hints were very, very subtle and I doubt anybody would notice in a more casual setting. But there was another that transitioned 55 years ago and she still does not pass the ideal. The maleness is subtle but it is still far more evident than Heather who transitioned 15 years ago. Everybody else failed the pass test, but many passed the blend test. Point is, everybody is different and nobody is perfect and few are close to perfect. Passing is just an idealistic concept that even most GGs can't achieve. I have seen plenty of GG's that have a lot of masculine features and I am sure it has been a problem for them sometimes and they get clocked as male. In fact I know a couple and it is a problem for them at times. Do your best, learn, but forget about the ideal and just be who you are.

[Sara Jessica]

Did you really mean what you wrote, "passing is just an idealistic concept that even most GGs can't achieve"??? Read above, even the most masculine presenting woman is more often than not clocked as what she is, a woman. To suggest that most women can't pass as women is so wrong on every level.

Please see the incomplete list of "tells" that have been posted by myself and others above. I dare to say that the typical MTF TG person has challenges in enough of those areas to make it difficult, if not impossible to be read by others as anything but trans (assuming the person is presenting as a female). If a natal female is challenged by anything on the list, it is likely absolutely minimal. For example, having slightly larger hands than the average female alone will not get a woman clocked as a male. I know a woman with such a prominent brow that would make a Neanderthal blush, yet she is absolutely unmistakably female based on pretty much every other trait she possesses. The overwhelming feminine nature of achieving a majority of the list is likely to guarantee that the world will see any woman for what she is, a woman unless of course she is trying to present as a male.

I don't know what you see in the wild to conclude that most women cannot pass for women. Perhaps you are viewing the world through such a skewed trans lens that you want to see them in this way in order to bring yourself up. Regardless, it doesn't make it right in any way.

[Ressie]

Is that a man or a woman? That's pretty much the best we can hope for. Truly passing would mean there's no question about it with thoughts and comments like, "she looks great" etc.

[Jackie7]

How to blend more easily: keep on truckin’ as you get older. Everybody looks twice at a hot young chick struttin’ her stuff. Nobody looks once at an appropriately-dressed middle-aged lady quietly minding her own business.

[phili]

I understand the idea about women [meaning females] not 'passing'- in the sense of achieving the 'fully woman', meaning 'fully feminine' idealization. There are huge pressures on females to try to conform as much as possible to artificial standards that then are used to define them as 'women', and most do not 'pass' on all counts. Shoulders too broad, hips to narrow, chin too square, hair here or there, etc. Mannerisms, speech habits, voice register and timbre, body language, stance, thousands of elements of presentation are taken into account, and knowing whether someone is female or male is so fundamental to our biological imperative that we are very skilled at knowing by adding up all the check boxes.

There are males colloquially known as 'traps' where so many check boxes match that it takes longer to know, and even when they are dolled up and overall sexiness swamps the other clues, I doubt the victim isn't willingly blinding themselves! There are few women, no matter how masculine, who are mistaken for men. how the plumbing looks- with the exception of intersex people.

IMO those among us who try to pass are definitely depending on passing glances, not any kind of in depth encounter. IMO 'passing' happens when people don't pay too much attention, or just generously and silently agree to the offer we make to be accepted as a 'lady for a day' as a woman in my sewing class put it.

It may seem strange to some, but MIADs like me are also asking to pass- to be accepted, as males, as eligible to enjoy something that is normally reserved for females. And anyone who will accept us will also be nice to those working harder at more elements of the picture.

[Rhonda Jean]

I almost answered, "If you have to ask...", but on reflection I'll cut you some slack.

When I was newly married at 20 I was 5'9" and 125 pounds with roller-set hair down to about bra strap length and very long nails.. I was frequently referred to as a girl in male mode. So, how hard could it be to pass? I thought I passed completely. Add to that, being newly married I had access to all these great clothes(with her permission). We were even the same shoe size.

No point in going into the whole story, but somebody made it clear that I did not pass. I could not see it and had no idea what gave me away. I wanted to find out. I started going into places (dressed) where I thought I'd be remembered. A doughnut shop, Dillard's, a convenience store... lots of places. Then I go back the next day in male mode and work into the conversation that I was there the day before dressed as a woman and ask if they read me and how.

Some told me they had no idea I wasn't a woman. Those that read me had reasons (tells) that ranged everywhere from my voice to the veins in my hands. One woman said it was because she could see my leopard print bra through my shirt. Some said, "I don't know! It was just something".

I thought I could overwhelm all those tells by going going to a more extreme version of what I thought was girly or feminine. My first purchase to that end on my meager income was an electric blue Spandex mini dress and stilettos to match. Along with more vivid makeup and bigger hair, as most on here realize, that was a step in the wrong direction. I didn't have to go back in to the stores and ask if I passed. I could tell I didn't. The experiments continued, and continued to confound me as to why I didn't pass. Daisy Dukes, crop tops, tube tops, bigger boobs... you see what direction this is going. The more extreme I was, the less I passed. It was a long time before I thought that just maybe I needed to tone it down.

The first nail salon opened not far from me and I had my first professional manicure. I had been trying to do my nails in as feminine a way possible since my mid teens. Having them professionally shaped and my cuticles done along with perfect polish made a huge difference in my hands. Maybe those veins weren't such a tell anymore. My hairdresser suggested she do my brows, which at that time meant tweezing. That seemingly insignificant detail feminized my face a lot, to the point it took some getting used to in male mode. I had my colors done by the girl at the Clinique counter. She told me not only what colors and how to do my makeup, but what colors of clothes and even what to look for in clothes that would help disguise broad shouders and narrow hips. My wife's clothes and makeup were pretty much the opposite of what I should be wearing.

I did not have the eye for such detail, and frankly some of my favorite and most exciting things to wear were the things I needed to avoid if I wanted to pass. Now 40 years later it doesn't require the asking others experiment to know if I pass. I know I don't. I still try to, but it's futile. I settle for looking good, or at least trying very hard to. Until a few years ago I'd allow myself a couple of times a year when I'd throw caution to the wind and wear something obscenely short and the highest heel I could possibly walk in, along with over-the-top makeup and gawdy jewelry and go out, even if it was for a few minutes, just for the pure fun and excitement of it. I can't even do that anymore without looking ridiculous and trashy, not to mention less passable. I don't worry about passing like I used to. I know it's futile. That's hard to admit!!! Yet, age catches up to our fem sides, too.

So, if you have to ask... you just need try it to find out. The thing that's just as hard as passing is being brutally honest with yourself about it.

[Pat]

But, ummm... Hormones & chromosomes?? :heehee:

Yeah, I hate it when I walk into a 7-11 and the clerk whips out the DNA scanner. :brolleyes:

Just a thought: rather than agonize over not being able to "pass" for what you're not, why not BE what you are? I'm a transgender person -- I look exactly like one; I move/speak/sound exactly like one. I'm out every day interacting with a world that sometimes gets it and sometimes doesn't but I am ME the whole time. I always pass as a transgender person, the same way women always pass as women. You don't have to be a transgender person to ride this train -- whatever you are BE that thing.

[Krisi]

Take a look at Caitlyn Jenner all the money and surgeries she has had done she still has a male voice and gender markers that look male.
I can look at her and to me she doesn't pass.

I agree. Ray Charles could tell she was born male. And she has been the butt of many jokes.

Every now and then Maury Povich (a TV personality) has a show on "male or female". He has women and men dressed as women come on and the audience tries to guess if they are male or female. Many of the men actually pass but these are very rare individuals with professional makeup help just for the show. And we are still just seeing them for a few moments all glammed up.

At some point you just have to accept who and what you are and live with it.

[Kayliedaskope]

I'm very very new to this (just experimenting a little with underdressing). A consistent thread here is that it is very hard to pass as a woman.

Why?

It seems to me that with a wig, clothes, and makeup, you can look female. Is the hard part how you carry yourself, act, speak, etc? Or is there give-aways in the face even with makeup?


Anyone can 'look' female ... 'acting' and 'sounding' female is a whole lot harder. Passing? Maybe some of those luckier people who have hit the genetic lottery, yes. People like me who are linebacker size? Not so much. I've seen some pretty beautiful men and some pretty hideous women, so mileage may vary ...

As many have said, passing is almost impossible for many of us, no matter how we dress and make up. Blending in is an easier and more attainable goal.

[julia marie]

I'm one of those who focus more on blending than passing. In either case, I judge my success in passing/blending in terms of distance. In general I don't draw attention at 20 to 50 feet (except for a couple instances over the course of 5 years where people pointed or commented from across a parking lot). I think that at 10 feet people can tell there is "something different" about this woman. At 5 feet or less (like across a retail counter) there's no doubt that I'm a man in a skirt. I can live with that.
The "tells": eyebrows and the set of my eyes, bulky arms/shoulders, voice (definitely), hands, and any number of mannerisms that might seem out of place or unnatural.
Don't stress about passing. Just go out and feel good about yourself in your non-guy world.

[docrobbysherry]

Back to women that don't pass consistently. I believe any natal female can pass no matter how masculine her features. If they want to.
But, as Pat said, some don't care to. Because they know they r women. Or, they simply want to appear masculine.

I saw a woman in a Fedex store I was sure was trans from 20' away. So, I went up and asked her a question to start a conversation. As soon as she opened her mouth I knew she was a GG!:battingeyelashes:

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
Sorry I don't get your statement that some GGs can't fully pass as female, the fact is they are female end of story obviously some are more attractive than others but they are genuinely female .

[Ressie]

I saw an older woman at a wedding a couple of years ago and wasn't sure for the longest time. She looked like a transgender M2F with a long skirt and tennis shoes. She talked to me after a couple of hours which is when I found I was mistaken. She was a genetic girl.

[Rayleen]

One thing that is the hardest thing to do, even if you are dressed properly, good makeup, wig or natural hair, posture and physics.
that one thing is : can you make the head movements of the female while she is conversing to you or someone, especially a genuine female, very tricky .

[Tamsin Secret]

Great thread.

Ok so here comes my thoughts from a complete novice with no real experience of passing!

I believe it's very much in the mind. Let's face it we are putting on a facade as we're not genetic.

If you wish to pull the wool over others eyes you usually just need to be super confident doing it and make others doubt the reason they maybe doubting you.

If I ever plan to 'pass' I will be going out with head high, smiling, interacting and having fun. Otherwise hey, why are we bothering if we are trying to 'pass'

Disclaimer: If it was that easy...... Indeed. Easier said than done I know but that's my take for what it's worth.

[MissPaula]

Stay away from those damn demon department store cosmetic counters!!!!!! lol....Being full time, I still get "read" now and then, but most of the time if I do, it comes in a complimentary fashion. e.g. "You look really good" or "I can hardly tell". My own observations are that a number of cd'ers dress a little too young for their age or wear the wrong clothing for their body type, and the lack of accessories. I attribute it to limited budgets. My advice: as long as you feel pretty, the hell with what others think. Go be who you feel you are!

[Ressie]

Good advice MissPaula.


can you make the head movements of the female while she is conversing to you or someone, especially a genuine female, very tricky .

I have know desire to go into details like that in an attempt to pass. Many women don't move their head in any particular way when talking anyway.

Also, I don't even try to walk like a female. I just try to walk less manly. I don't try to talk like a female either. I guess just being myself is more important than passing.

[Jaymees22]

My simple answer is I can usually tell if a person is a male or female a block or two away, can't you? Just go out and really look at people.

[IleneD]

Some of it is pure genetics, I'm convinced. And age..... youth always helps.
Some people like me are dual blessed; with a big powerful male body AND a sweet inner feminine core. I can paint and decorate all I wish. I will still be 6'3", 215 lb with big shoulders.

OTHERS are what I call "born for this". Technically these folks may possess male genital parts they are given a more feminine, androgynous and naturally soft look. I find them among the the most beautiful and fascinating human beings I observe. I often envy these "men" who really look like natural GG women because they are Naturals for this lifestyle (or full transition). It's almost a gift, though I'm sure that many an androgynous effeminate boy didn't feel so gifted or lucky having to grow up that way in a mean world.

[Lydianne]

Act like you know! :shades:. Not that I could :o.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l89TxxPGPdA

[Vickie_CDTV]

It isn't one or two things, or even a few, it is the totality of the presentation. I knew a GG who was completely bald (I believe she has alopecia), yet even from behind no one mistook her for anything other than a woman; she lacked hair on her head but had a distinctly female pear shape, a feminine voice, small hands, wasn't too tall etc. I knew a GG who had huge feet (wore a 12W)) and had big hands, but was not mistaken for a man because she wasn't too tall, had a curvy figure, had an average female voice etc. I have known women with rough voices, who were over 6' etc. and they are not mistaken for men, because almost everything else is within the average female range. The problem is, when you are born a genetic male, you usually have too many things outside the average female range, not just a few.

[ellbee]

Yeah, I hate it when I walk into a 7-11 and the clerk whips out the DNA scanner. :brolleyes:

I'm confused now: Are you saying that chromosomes *don't* determine physical sex traits in humans??

And that primary hormones (especially of the life-long variety) *don't* have any effect on a human in terms of appearance??

Because basic biology says otherwise, for quite a while now.


The OP was asking why it's so difficult to pass. Both chromosomes & hormones play a HUGE role in all this. These are the basic fundamental foundations when it comes to sex development as fetuses, as kids, and as adults... You know, how people can kinda tell just by looking the differences between men & women, which is sorta important for sexual reproduction & continuation of the species, and all that jazz.


Of course, this is only *physically*... What others see with their eyes. We can be "read" simply by sight. The deck is stacked against us, right off the bat. (Though obviously sometimes, some of us can get "good enough" to mask/hide/enhance/minimize/etc., certain things.)

But this is only part of the battle. It is a game of inches, both figuratively & literally. And all those little things can add up to the bigger picture, perhaps pushing us just enough over the edge of that binary divide. Yes, sometimes some of us *can* sometimes "fool" some people at some levels/environments/situations, in person, when it comes to simple appearance. But depending on your parameters of passing, you then may have to throw in all this other stuff, like voice, movement, posture, etc., which is a whole new ball-game.

I'd love to go on, but I honestly don't have time to ramble about this.



Anyway, if someone wants to go down this road, for whatever reason? Then who cares! Let them! It's their life, their choice, their wants/needs, and they have their reasons.

Heck, I went through this, myself, in my 20's & 30's. And if someone at that time suggested that I don't try? I'd tell 'em to get stuffed, or something along those lines, LOL.

I will, however, say that it was pretty brutal, especially without the assistance of surgery or female hormones . It took a lot of time, money, effort, energy, practice, knowledge, etc. It did get almost stressful, after a while, which is actually one of the reasons why I believe I eventually quit the whole 100% en-femme thing. But part of it was, the internal challenge was there, and I wanted to see if it could be done -- and if *I* could do it. So, challenge was accepted. :)

And very glad I went down this path. Don't regret it at all, wouldn't trade it for the world. But would I want to go through all that again, at this time or at any time in the future? Heck, no! :D

[Krisi]

I've read a few comments claiming that some women don't pass. I think those people are confused about the meaning of the word "pass". Passing means looking like a woman. It would be a pretty rare woman who doesn't look like a woman. Looking like a woman doesn't mean wearing makeup and high heels. It doesn't mean wearing revealing clothes. A woman looks like a woman because she is a woman. And she "passes" as a woman. The exception would be a woman who is trying to look like a man. A FTM.

[rachael.davis]

So from instructing a martial art, and working with several women to modify a couple of key techniques -

Womens' shoulder blades are anchored closer to the spine, and slightly lower on the torso than mens' arms are - this is at least half of why a woman can carry a significant weight on her hip.
It rotates the arm towards the back - generally (please don't scream about I know a woman who....) this rotates a womans elbow so the point of the elbow is facing directly back. For about 90% of European ancestry women this also "kicks" the forearm out at an angle to the upper arm (part of what lets their hand clear their hip when standing or walking)
So it feels really funny to train to - but you can get used to pulling your shoulder blades down and in - slightly smaller shoulder width, more typical arm and hand position.

There are hundreds of "tells" that most people don't notice, but are still tells

[Tina_gm]

I am going to somewhat 2 part this. Yes, most of us if we try hard enough, can cover up our masculine features with make up, the right clothes, maybe body shaping and fake ta tas, wig if needed. In order to do so we end up standing out for doing so because we have to go to such extreme levels, save for a very lucky yet very very few who truly do have a woman's frame. And that is not just being thin either, although many on here think that with a thin enough frame that works, it still doesn't. Anyone remember the rock group Kiss... No one (back in the 70's) knew who they really were or what they really looked like under the face paint. But in order to do so they certainly stood out. In a way the same goes for us as well. Then of course when we get attention for our cover up, people will then take a closer look then what they might have done otherwise and then as others have stated the small tells, or not so small like basic height, and and foot size adams apple, facial features etc etc etc and can put it all together without a whole lot of effort, From a distance sure, one might pass, but on a shoulder to shoulder proximity.... Not saying that it can't ever or doesn't ever happen that some of us can't pass that, just that it rarely happens.

Now for part two- whether you hit the gene pool lottery or not, comes the who you are part. I know a person who is basically TS, but for medical reasons mostly doesn't live as a woman. They just are not able to transition, physically. This person has come quite damn close to hitting that gene pool lottery. Yet still, even though they are to the point of being truly petite, a close inspection still shows facial features. BUT- the true femininity of this person, and having been out as either a gay man and or transgender, their femininity has allowed them to be considered a woman by pretty much anyone who knows him/her. Regardless of how he/she is dressed. So in essence, he/she pass. It doesn't matter how he/she is dressed, the personality, their very being is that of a woman and that is what people generally think of this person. I am using the he/she because this person basically represents both. neither trying to be male or female, just being who this person is and is looked upon as a woman, which this person is fine with.

[Sandra]

Apart from the physical things, bone structure, size of hands, body shape etc as people have already mentioned, one thing I think a lot do is try to hard. You all want to look perfect and strut your stuff and go you go overboard.

Yes you do see some women dressed to the nines doing the weekly shop, but have you ever thought that she is dressed like that because she has come straight from work? Most women don't get all dolled up to do the grocery shop, I myself will even spot the woman all done up why, because it's not the norm when doing the weekly shop.

I know passing is a biggie for some but surely if you're comfy and happy then does it really matter.

Oh and to those who say GGs don't pass...well duh that's just jealousy, I'm a GG and I pass thank you very much :)

[Teresa]

Rachel,
I guess the obvious reason for your description is men have to be capable of throwing a weapon to kill a prey to feed the family a woman has to care for children , she can cradle a small child better with her body shape . That is a natural situation going back through time, OK there are exceptions on both sides some very athletic women and some very effeminate men .

I find turning the hands out when walking makes the walk different and adds a natural sway, once in heels that is possibly enough without overdoing the whole action . As Sandra comments without trying too hard .

[Kate Simmons]

It's a combination of a lot of elements that go into the look and the overall presentation. The real bottom line, I think, is that if we have convinced ourselves, we can be pretty convincing, especially if we don't worry so much and just have fun with it. Works for me! :battingeyelashes::)

[julia marie]

I suspect that I didn't pass today, but I still have a smile on my face. I was out for some shopping, and needed some calories, so I went to McDonalds drivethrough. After I paid I had a flashback to a few years ago when a McDonalds person giggled when she "made" me and told her coworker to take a look. So, today I sat in the car wondering if I was going to be humiliated. No, today the young woman handed me my change and added, "Let me take a moment to tell you that you look lovely today," with a big smile. I smiled back and said thank you.
That's not passing. It's acceptance. That's a huge difference. And, it's great.

[sometimes_miss]

Last year I went shopping at a large mall in Melbourne, in two shops I saw the slight look of surprise from the SA when i spoke, up to that point they thought i was a woman, did I pass? IMO yes I did until i spoke... clearly a lot of practice of my female voice is needed...
I think this demonstrates just how much it's a combination of everything. I mean, every day, you will see women who in some way, aren't 'all feminine'. Yet, we don't for a moment think that they're female impersonators. Why?
Because even when they display a masculine 'tell', the rest of them is 100% female.
We don't have that. One little 'tell' and it invites further inspection of us, and very, very few can pass that.
We simply don't have a lifetime of being female. Even when we practice, at some point, we're going to over do or under do something, or a simple physical anatomical difference, and that becomes the dead give away that maybe we're not exactly what we seem to be.
Then the scrutiny starts, and BINGO! We're 'made'.
And it all takes as little as a second.
For most of us, this is due to our continued life of living as a male. When we crossdress and try to present as females, we're just acting the part. IRL, We keep all our male behaviors, so the moment our guard is down, we just slip back into male mode, and it only takes a couple of seconds of this to broadcast to the world that we're not women. It's just a normal subconscious thing to do, behaving naturally, that gives us away.