Crossdreaming: An "Aha!" moment

[Isabella Ross]

I know, I know...it's that time of the year when no one wants to have serious discussions; we'd all like to talk about the panties and leggings and dresses and mascara that we'd like for Christmas, New Year's resolutions, etc. But I came across a new term and a whole new facet of crossdressing and transgenderism this morning -- one that I somehow have never heard of. It's called crossdreaming, and it's essentially a more wholesome interpretation of the theory underscoring the term autogynephilia.

Crossdreaming is not about dreaming about crossdressing. And it's not about dreaming of what color of stockings might be waiting under the tree for you (although I will confess that I'm hoping for some new patterned black stockings). So what is it? Here's what I found at the website www.crossdreamers.com: "The term crossdreaming was coined to describe the phenomenon that some people get aroused by the idea of being the "other sex" (relative to their assigned sex at birth)."

There's far, far too much information at this website, and all of its periphery sites, to attempt to describe it one post on this forum. Suffice it to say that some of it appears to explain so many things in my own life. Not all, but many. It's really a worthwhile visit. But a warning: be prepared to stay for a while, because there's a lot of info there.

One of the most intriguing aspects of the website is the advice offered on how to successfully incorporate your crossdreaming desires into the context of your own marriage. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

If anyone reads this and has the time and the courage to explore this site (www.crossdreamers.com) and the theories of crossdreaming, or if you're already familiar with the term and this particular train of thought regarding of transgenderism, I'd really like to know what you think...please leave them on this thread.

[Karen RHT]

At this point Isabella, about all I can say is that I find your post intriguing, so when I have time to spend, I'll check out that website as you suggest. Thanks for your post.


Karen

[DMichele]

Isabella,
I am somewhat aware of the website, but have not spent much time on it to date. Yesterday I was on the site reading an article that I came across months ago. After reading I searched the site and agree there is lots to explore. I must return to it soon.

[Isabella Ross]

Yes...that's the thing with it. Many concepts and many aspects of it to digest. Not a quick read to be sure.

[Teresa]

Isabella,
I've checked all this out several times but come back to AGP that makes me tick .

I will say I'm looking to get into a heated discussion , it's what I believe is part of my problem , I've checked it out away from the forum, I accept and live with it. It's just a label that explains part of my/our behaviour but it doesn't really affect everyday life , for whatever reason I have a need to CD so I just go with it now .

[IleneD]

This is interesting because I came across an article about "How To Tell If You're Transgender." (I hit all the markers, BTW)
One of the interesting points that the amateur analyst made was that fantasizing about heterosex but placing one's self in the female role is a major marker for TG. As I've evolved and learned about my CD and the motives for it, I too began to have vivid dreams about being a woman. Not sexual or erotic in the sense of being a graphic porno dream. These dreams would be of myself as a woman, being made love to by a man. The dream wasn't so much "images" as it was a feeling; a sense. An overwhelming sense of surrender and well-being by being in the arms of a male lover. These 'dreams' became powerful enough to get my attention
I've posted the article here. I can provide a link to the article if needed)

How to Tell if You’re Transgender
by Vicki Sixx (Born magazine)

Article link: http://born.uk.com/tell-youre-trans/


The trans-spectrum is vast, even in the world of the transvestite – let alone genderfluid, transgender and transsexual – the variety is endless: dressing for sexual kicks, to feel empowered, to be humiliated, to feel complete, to relieve stress, to feel desirable, for an adrenaline rush to list but a few.
But for many of us, there comes a point that we never expected, myself included – wondering if we are in fact transgender. All of a sudden all bets are off, the lines of reality begin to blur – our established reasons for dressing in the first place are put under the microscope – and we can’t find a definitive answer to what should be a simple question: am I transgender?
Of course it isn’t a simple question, that’s why the answer isn’t always clear cut. Gender dysphoria doesn’t follow a set template. Not everyone adheres to the stereotype of being trapped in the wrong body and in my opinion, everyone who has a calling to ‘femme up’ is driven by gender dysphoria to varying degrees. Some will be satisfied with dressing once a week whilst others need to live as females 24/7.
So here are my indicators that you are transgender. It’s not scientific, it’s just my personal view and which happened to be shared by other trans. It’s not to say that this list is definitive and I must point out that you really need to be saying ‘yes’ to the majority of the reasons listed in order to get an accurate analysis of whether you’re transgender or not and that any one indicator taken in isolation will have a wide margin of error and won’t be enough on which to form a solid conclusion.

Going out dressed
It’s a bit of a no-brainer, really, LOL. If you’re feeling the compulsion to dress like a normal woman and go out into the world – ie: not just masturbating at home in a pair of fishnet stockings and a Nazi helmet – then this is a strong indication that you are trans. You’re not driven by sexual impulse or a desire to be provocative and challenging. Whilst you may very well have a penchant for spicing up the bedroom as a sexy secretary of the Third Reich, your desire to be seen by society as a woman – to blend in, to assimilate – speaks volumes for how you want to be perceived. You’re projecting an image of the inner you.

Feels right to cross-dress
Yes, dressing can be very exciting. After all you’re doing something very taboo, something you’ve never done before, sliding on tight-fitting, luxuriously soft material and figure-hugging, sexy outfits that men just don’t get to wear. But if after that initial heady adrenaline rush (and it might take a few sessions to get past it) you feel calm – like you’ve found your inner Zen – then this is another strong indicator that you are trans. Gone is the titillation and thrill, instead there is a sense of ease and of coming home.


Aha!
Following on from how nice it feels to cross-dress is what I call the ‘aha!’ moment. This can come at any point but usually when you look at yourself in the mirror and after the shock at seeing a girl staring back at you has waned, you realise that something has clicked into place. You see your reflection and begin to feel that ‘this is right’, this is who you’re meant to be. At this point it doesn’t have to be overwhelming – it just has to be present. If the thought crosses your mind – even if only as a question – then there’s an exceptionally strong chance that you are experiencing a paradigm shift and seeing the real you looking back at you.

Dysphoria
As I said before, gender dysphoria comes in many ways and is unique to the individual so I can’t go into too many specifics. Suffice it to say that if you have any sense of unease about your natural gender characteristics then you are highly likely to be gender dysphoric.
For example, you may feel uneasy about beard growth or have a burning desire for breasts. Whatever the issue, if you feel a disconnect with your sex-determined physical attributes, and if you look at girls with jealousy and envy, then your spidey-sense should be tingling off the charts!

Looking into it
This may seem obvious but you’ll be amazed at how many trans overlook it. If you’ve Googled ‘transgender’ then you’re probably transgender. If you’ve researched transition then you’re probably transgender. If you’ve viewed or joined a trans website then you’re highly likely to be transgender. If you watch male-to-female transformation videos – specifically HRT time-lapse videos – then you’re extremely likely to be transgender.

Sexual projection as a woman
If, when you fantasise about heterosexual sex, you imagine yourself as the woman then you’re highly likely to be transgender. If, when you fantasise about a man and a trans getting groovy, you imagine yourself as the trans then you’re more than likely transgender.
So there you have it – a guide to figure out if you’re transgender. Like I said, it’s not scientific and there’s more than one way to come to the same conclusion but it should help you out of the maze you’re currently lost in. I appreciate that any one of these reasons aren’t necessarily indicative either way but when combined with the rest, as a majority, they form an overwhelming and compelling argument.

Born would like to thank Vicki Sixx for writing this great article for us.

[Isabella Ross]

Very cool, Ilene.

[foxy bartender]

Like many of us, I’ve been questioning just this myself, and after reading this, I realize I hit all the markers too. That scares me so much. I think deep down I’ve always known it in my heart, but reading this today is eye opening. It’s hard sometimes to take an inventory of your feelings, but this helped me find perspective.
I’ve just been through a fairly traumatic experience. My fiancé’s grandparents invited us to stay in an apartment on their ranch so we could save for the wedding. They had never met me. After a few weeks, of seeing me with my nails painted, wearing makeup, and feminine clothing, they kicked us out. We had just spent thousands moving to California from Montana. She has a job she loved and didn’t want to leave unexpectedly. I was having anxiety attacks constantly and couldn’t be there. They were starting to call her other family members saying horrible things about me, so I knew I had to leave. I booked a plane ticket and flew to New York to stay at my Dad’s house, but he doesn’t know about me. I haven’t actually seen him in like 5 years.
Even though we have a new plan in place, and we’re moving to Tennessee, I’m stuck in boy mode until the end of the month, and I can’t stand the feeling. I’ve made so much progress finding and expressing my identity, and I feel like I’m going backwards.
Thank you for posting the article here, I definitely needed it

[Nikki.]

Yes, I believe Jack Molay is on to something with crossdreaming. Below is a post I wrote earlier this year in another thread regarding AGP. Molay’s thoughts on AGP got me thinking in this direction. The original thread is at https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?253230-Is-Blanchard-s-discredited-theory-real&p=4158348&highlight=#post4158348


This is predicated on my understanding of blanchard' agp being mostly correct....

Teresa, think about your sexual fantasies. Is Teresa the focus? Do you fantasize about yourself as teresa only? Or, do you fantasize about having sex with other people, as Teresa? Sex is one of our most basic drives, and for guys that drive is constant. Even still, the psychological component to sex is huge. If your entire life you've been physicallly wrong bodied, but occasionally allow yourself to think about how it would be to have sex with someone in the right body, as an attractive female, do you not think it would be sexually exciting and stimulating?

Imagine your entire life you were a had to wear a clown costume when intimate with someone. You don't have a particular aversion to clowns, but you're not a clown, so having to wear the costume puts a damper on the sexy time parade. So most of the time you fantasize about how amazing it would be to have sex not wearing the clown costume, and quite honestly, being clown free makes you feel super sexy and it turns you on. A lot. And the thought of having sex with another person sans clown is amazing. you don't fantasize about your clown free self, but the thought of it can be arousing. And the thought of being loved, accepted and intimate with someone without the clown costume, is the the most amazing fantasy, and totally out of reach (you think).

So are you the target of your fantasies, or is the idea of teresa being free, loved and intimate with another?

[phili]

I think I am transgender, but not transsexual, and I think this is a critical distinction.My experience is yes on most of this- but I still know i am a male. So I call myself a mirl.

This seems to be the right time to pose the question- perhaps added to Vicki's list- Can you enjoy all these elements of what is defined as womanhood in our world, as a biological male?"

This is where I depart from AGP as well.

When I imagine having sex it is as a mirl. My partners are in the picture, I am thinking about how attracted I am to them as well as how they are attracted to me. I am male, and my partners probably fit the bisexual mode- as a bisexual I can say that the plumbing is not the big thing, it is the relationship, the interest in joining with the person, with enjoying their body's sexuality, etc.

When I wear dresses it is to enjoy them as a woman does, but that pleasure is clearly not limited to females. {don't we all know that!] So enjoying them fully as mine and being what I feel most comfortable in (when not working), doesn't have to do with being transsexual, just transgender.

And the whole transgender label only exists because we artificially divide human pleasures into two gender boxes.

I am hoping my example will help others know if they really want to try to change their body, or if they feel they have to in order to be allowed to enjoy womanhood. In that case, perhaps focusing on realizing that your feelings of femininity are real, valid, arrived at the same way women who feel feminine arrive at it, etc., will fill you with satisfaction, as it has me, and the tension over not being female just went away.

[bridget thronton]

Very nice article Ilene - thanks for sharing it here

[Abbey11]

Great post Isabella and thanks for the link

Ilene, thanks also for the markers, I tick all bar 1

[Teresa]

Nikki,
You can find my story in the TS section archives.
As far as Blanchard is concerned he started the idea but it has moved on, I contacted others after Blanchard and received some interesting information on TGs with AGP as opposed to TSs with AGP, there is a difference. OK I agree it is sexually driven but there are other aspects of AGP to be taken into account.

I agree it does mean to love oneself as a woman but this is overlaid on top of my sexual needs as a man, it has left me with a total need to share every aspect of my being ( male and female ) with a woman. OK there is the element of being turned on sexually when dressed but with age that has balanced itself out . Also they are mostly sexual realities rather than sexual fantasies I have lived most of them. The one point is a male to male relationship does not come into my equation , I get on fine with men ( CDers or not ) but I'm not attracted to them.

[Nikki.]

Teresa, I’ve read your story and your acceptance of AGP as you have posted it elsewhere several times. I had no issue or desire to convince you otherwise and I’m happy for you that you’ve found what works for you. I was merely reposting my take on an alternative to AGP based on Jack Molay’s concept of crossdreaming, from a discussion about AGP you started several months ago, for the OP to read since she requested other’s thoughts on crossdreaming.

That’s it. Peace.

-n

[Fiona123]

I identify as trasgender. For me its about identity and authenticity as a person - woman. Crossdreaming apprears to be AGP lite. As a label it does not work for me at all.

[Tracii G]

My trans group has spent a lot of time discussing autogynephilia.
Myself I have no sexual fantasies so AGP I don't think applies to me.
I am trans thats it.

[Denise1951]

Before I signed in to the forum today, I was wondering why I think about my fem side ALL the time. Then I saw this post. Very enlightening for this mid 60's girl wanna be.

[Lana Mae]

Isabella, thanks for this thread! Interesting!
Ilene, thanks for the markers and I did hit every one! More food for thought!
Hugs Lana Mae

[Sarah Doepner]

. . .
How to Tell if You’re Transgender
by Vicki Sixx (Born magazine)
. . .
So here are my indicators that you are transgender. It’s not scientific, it’s just my personal view and which happened to be shared by other trans. It’s not to say that this list is definitive and I must point out that you really need to be saying ‘yes’ to the majority of the reasons listed in order to get an accurate analysis of whether you’re transgender or not and that any one indicator taken in isolation will have a wide margin of error and won’t be enough on which to form a solid conclusion.

Going out dressed
. . .
Feels right to cross-dress
. . .
Aha!
. . .
Dysphoria
. . .
Looking into it
. . . .
Sexual projection as a woman
. . ..

So 6 out of 6 really doesn't mean anything, right? If this WERE the definitive list I may as well sign up with the endo next week.

[IleneD]

Trace......
I couldn't imagine a life without sexual fantasies. Sigh.
I suppose in some ways its a relief

[Fiona123]

Its not that i dont have sexual fantasies when dressed, i often do. Its not that i dont find dressing sensual, i most certainly do. I feel though that the terms agp and its progeny are thrown about far too easily and too often. They are used to marginalize trans women as fetishists.

I accept that there are gals who identify themselves as having agp or are crossdreamers. At the same time when those terms are used imprecisely or too broadly it plays into the hands of the ignorant and transphobic haters.

[Lana Mae]

No AGP here! Sexual fantasies we all have and that is what they are fantasies! Presently, I am more asexual than anything! Hugs Lana Mae

[Teresa]

I said I didn't want to get into a heated debate about AGP, but maybe some members should take a look at the more up to date work on AGP, it's real and not all about fantasies and sexual fetishes .

I get the feeling some people are frightened by the implications , it's just a label like most others , if you know it applies find out the facts so you can learn to live with it , I'm OK about it now, it doesn't rule my life I just accept it's part of me and has been since the age of 8-9 years old.

Fiona ,
We shouldn't worry too much about the haters, they will crawl out of the woodwork at anything and make irrelevant and contentious comments and crawl away again , our community is a prime target . Some of them have very little idea of what they are talking about , so it's best to treat then with the contempt they deserve, our lives shouldn't be ruled and affected by them .

[Lana Mae]

Teresa, do not be so thin skinned! I was not saying AGP was bad or anything else just not for me! If I insulted you in any way, I am sorry! I do not hate anyone not even a certain President we now have! LOL Hugs Lana Mae

[Pat]

I said I didn't want to get into a heated debate about AGP, but maybe some members should take a look at the more up to date work on AGP, it's real and not all about fantasies and sexual fetishes .

[Moderating] Then please DON'T get into a heated debate about AGP. By all means have a polite discussion. If you have source material for "some members" to look at, please post links as appropriate. Otherwise, let's tamp this fire down.

[Becky Blue]

As far as I understood Crossdreaming is under the AGP header. Also not going to get into a debate about the authenticity of either. The reality is no one really knows why we do what we do, so if something makes sense to you and helps you be happy then be happy I say.

[Teresa]

Pat/Lana,
I apologise if my comments sounded heated, it wasn't my intention but as I say it is more than when Blanchard first put his ideas forward but the idea of it being just fantasy and a fetish isn't what it's all about but those meanings have stuck. That's what people keep throwing back in their replies, I find the Crossdreaming term very misleading , it suggests total fantasy which it isn't.

Some suggest it's just another term for GD , I know some who have transitioned not because they feel they have the wrong body but because the urge to seen and accepted as a woman is so overpowering . That is why I can't say exactly how far I will want to transition , I don't feel in the wrong body but the need to be seen and accepted as a woman is becoming stronger . It's also why I feel it explains my need to be natural with my dressing , it's not an act, I don't want to parody women that's why I feel too much is made of lower padding and excessive boobs .

[docrobbysherry]

U can call it crossdreaming or AGP. But, whatever it was, when I first began serious dressing 20 years ago at age 50, my fantasies of being the woman with a man, were so overwhelming I was certain I had become gay! :eek:

Which seemed odd because I had mentally dealt with that subject years earlier when I hung around with and was hit on by familiar gay men. It took me over 3 years to figure out I wasn't gay or bi. It was simply part of my new preoccupation with wanting to become a woman. It was all part of dealing with suddenly becoming trans!

It took coming to cd.com 10 years later to finally discover I was a CD. Because simply appearing to be female satisfied both my sexual and mental fem desires over the next 10 years. Since I can transform any time I please, all fantasies of having real breasts and other female parts have disappeared!:battingeyelashes:

[Isabella Ross]

To all those that responded, thank you. It's an interesting set of concepts and philosophies. I realize not everyone will agree with them, but I hope the discussion can stay civil...it's too important to let acrimony prevail and have the thread closed by admins as a result. I think Jack Molay and his/her contemporaries have done some admirable work and thinking in this area. One of those contemporaries is Felix Conrad, who refers to himself (or herself) as a clinical philosopher (not quite sure what that is, but no matter). Conrad is the force behind the website http://transcendmovement.com. I found this post there, and the lightbulb went off:

What is crossdreaming?

A crossdreamer is a person who gains sexual, emotional and psychic satisfaction from cross gender ideas or behaviour. The sexual fantasies of male to female crossdreamers can include any or all of the following…

1. Being dressed as a girl. (transvestic)
2. Behaving like a girl. (behavioural)
3. Being embodied as a female and having a vagina etc. (anatomical)

The common thread of these fantasies is the need to be feminine.

This does not mean they aren’t turned on by heterosexual sex. Many crossdreamers are married and able to play the sexual role expected of a husband. However, deep down their fantasies always return to being feminine.

Here's my point: at this stage of my acceptance and life as a joyful transgendered person, sex is not the end game. These days, being feminine in dress and thoughts just feels right during the times that I have to do this, and that does not necessarily mean sexual. For example, I always wear a pretty nightgown to bed, but I derive a sense of joy and peace from this, not any type of erotic gratification. However, from my earliest memories, there has been a sexual aspect to my crossdressing, and there will continue to be. So I am embracing of the crossdreaming philosophy to an extent.

A few years ago, as I started to fully accept who I am for the first time in my life, my wife and I would have fulsome discussions about what I was experiencing and how it impacted our lives. One aspect of those conversations was my sexuality, and I did my best to explain that, while I was sexually attracted to femininity, I also fantasized about being feminine during sex. (Admins...stay with me here; I am not going to get into anything risque). I don't think that my wife was overly enthusiastic at the prospect of this at first. But being the type of person she is, she wanted to explore my desires...to help me and let me realize my dreams (and please don't worry...I try to do the same for her, as it's a two way street). Strangely enough, as we lightly experimented, she began to really enjoy it. And then came the day where we were intimate in a way that I now realize was the first time I had truly been intimate with anyone in complete girl mode. The result was one of the most incredible experiences of my life...and I'm not speaking of pure sexual gratification. I'm talking about the incredible emotional experience of feeling like what I was doing was so incredibly right, so freeing. And more than anything, the experience of being truly accepted by my wife...it was as if she was looking into my soul and seeing me for the first time.

I'm doing a poor job of explaining all this. But I hope this helps others understand why I felt that the theories of crossdreaming were so relevant when I stumbled across them yesterday. Yes, gender and sexuality are two different things. But to think they are not deeply intertwined just doesn't make sense.

[LilSissyStevie]

I was an early follower of the Crossdreamers blog. In the beginning I think "crossdreaming" was Jack Molay's attempt to sanitize the ideas around autogynephilia (AGP). Call it AGP lite. I mean, what would you rather call yourself, a crossdreamer or an autogynephiliac? He was seemingly open to alternative interpretations of AGP as well as alternative theories of CD/TG/TS. He eventually adopted the position that cross gender sexual fantasies were the expression of the repressed sexuality of the inner female. Fetishistic CDs such as myself are just latent transsexuals in denial suffering from internalized transphobia. That's when I realized that crossdreaming, as it had evolved, had nothing to do with me. For me, the idea that my sexual fantasies are the expression of some kind of inner female is just my fetish talking to me. The more I believe it, the more powerful the fetish, the more "dysphoria" I experience. I'm stuck with the fetish and can have fun with it but I don't have to believe its BS.

[DMichele]

Ilene,
The 'How to Tell if you are Transgender' article was affirmation for me. To me it is good to go through the process as part of self-evaluation.
Thanks for providing the link.

[IleneD]

Michele,
It was affirmation for me too; that I wasn't crazy, or making this stuff up, or having a "phase" or fooling myself.
I read it and thought, "OMG. This is real. This is me." Made me think about things that only I knew were in my head. At least it convinced me I wasn't losing my mind (though, I already knew that.) I'll probably need to be more openly honest when I find a gender therapist.

[Teresa]

Ilene,
That old saying , " I'm just a crossdresser !" is hardly true for so many of us .
There is so much that has been written out there and yet we still don't know exactly what makes us tick and all this information sometimes adds to that confusion.

Do you really think you need a gender counsellor ? I think it helped me to head in the right direction but it's an uphill struggle if you're in a controlling DADT situation . When someone keeps giving negative responses you tend to question your own feelings and needs , I'm finally arriving at the point when I believe enough in myself that I'm prepared to stick to my guns when my needs are questioned .

Try not to be phased out by all this stuff, they are just labels that apply to some of us , if they do apply to you then find out more so you can learn to live with it , that's what I've discovered /

[Beverley Sims]

Isabella,
You have created an interesting thread, I have to leave this and read some of the articles pointed out by others.

[missmars]

Pat/Lana,
I apologise if my comments sounded heated, it wasn't my intention but as I say it is more than when Blanchard first put his ideas forward but the idea of it being just fantasy and a fetish isn't what it's all about but those meanings have stuck. That's what people keep throwing back in their replies, I find the Crossdreaming term very misleading , it suggests total fantasy which it isn't.

Some suggest it's just another term for GD , I know some who have transitioned not because they feel they have the wrong body but because the urge to seen and accepted as a woman is so overpowering . That is why I can't say exactly how far I will want to transition , I don't feel in the wrong body but the need to be seen and accepted as a woman is becoming stronger . It's also why I feel it explains my need to be natural with my dressing , it's not an act, I don't want to parody women that's why I feel too much is made of lower padding and excessive boobs .

I agree with you.

[suzanne]

First I've heard of it. Thanks for mentioning it. I'll be checking it out for sure.

[DanielleDubois]

After reading this thread and also reading a lot about AGP and Crossdreaming I think it confirms what we all know. The transgender/CD spectrum is very wide and very confusing. I have always considered myself a plain jane heterosexual crossdresser but have grown to realize it is not that simple. Otherwise why would I be so obsessed with trying to create as much of a feminine illusion as possible which includes extreme tucking and not feeling complete if every little detail such as painted toenails and long nails is not attended to. As I have aged my fantasies of being with another crossdresser or a woman who can accept Danielle have also increased. Why?, I have no idea and frankly have given up trying to analyze and rationalize the situation. As Popeye used to say "I am what I am" and maybe it doesn't need a label.