A comment that got me thinking

[Helen_Highwater]

A few days ago I posted this thread

https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?254898-Does-this-story-resonate-with-you which contained the following link;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2lh3pazKsM
Which is a short made for Channel 4 were Grayson Perry the artist who's also known for his CD'ing meets a truck driver who runs a safe haven hotel for CD'ers.

The reason (mods) I'm posting again is I want to address a specific issue so if you want to make a general comment please do it on the above thread. Otherwise I'd like your thoughts on;

At about 2min 10sec into the video Tina talks about CD'ers who have never dressed in front of anyone, only within the confines of their own homes. Now we know this to be the case, you may say, tell me something I didn't know. What I'd like are your thoughts on just how common this is.

If you go online and search for the paraphernalia that so many of use have, forms, hip and bum padding etc. you'll find a significant number of retailers. Both eBay and Amazon are littered with them. For the likes of The Breast Form Store to operate a viable business they'll have to sell a good number of items each week. I contacted by phone the company I bought my hip pads from and from the background noise I could tell there were 3 or 4 staff in the room. That number requires significant sales to keep that many employed.

I'll accept that some sales will be to GG's who perhaps have had a mastectomy or simply want larger breasts, bigger backsides but can't afford implants but my gut feeling is that isn't going to be that significant. There tends to be other avenues for them. If I'm right then the implication is there's a lot more CD'ers out there dressing alone within the confines of their own homes, hidden from the world.

As I write this there are approximately 5 guests to every member who's logged in. Take away a proportion of those guests who are members who just haven't logged in and it's still likely to be 4 to 1. Of the members the percentage who regularly go out, well what would you put the figure at? 10, 20 percent? And of course there will be many who have never found this site. Hence isn't it feasible that the social stigma that we discuss so often keeps a lot of our kindred spirits totally hidden from view.

So I guess what I'm saying is, are the results from social attitude surveys regarding the number of CD'ers a good an indicator of numbers or is the fact that there's a lot of money being spent perhaps a truer one? Add to this that we're now seeing a much truer representation of the numbers of Transgendered people, even among the very young, is it the case that we're not as thinly spread within the population as we sometimes think? Don't they always say in a criminal investigation, follow the money? Well perhaps that's the true indicator of how many CD'er there are. Money talks!

[pinklilly211]

HMMMMM, This post got me thinking. It's been 13 months since my wife passed, And she was accepting of Lill. I have found SOO many other dressers in my backwards community that I'm Blown away! WE ARE OUT THERE!!!! Huggs, Lill !!!

[Lana Mae]

Since so many do not go out and keep it within the four walls, it is hard to tell how many are behind closed door and staying there! I think any numbers presented by anyone is a guess and probably falls short of the actual number! IMHO Hugs Lana Mae

[CD_DIANE]

Hi Helen,

I would agree that money talks, but you say more in the first part of your post about running a safe haven hotel. That is probably what all of us want....a place where we can dress that is SAFE... i.e no harassment (or worse) from the idiots which exist everywhere. Those who are transgendered can't help but read and be discouraged by the number of people killed and the fact that society is being poisoned by everything from religious bigots to politicians who will say anything to get perceived votes. I don't know whatever happened to "Casa Suzanna" , (or if I spelled it right), but it was there for a reason......We all need a place where we can relax without worrying about the fools who need to prove how intelligent (or macho ) they are.

The fact that Goeff knows martial arts can't be a problem in some situations !

I don't have an answer, but people need to be accepted for who they are, not for their conformance to "society's" standards.

Diane

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I could tell there were 3 or 4 staff in the room. That number requires significant sales to keep that many employed.

What makes you think they're only selling pads and false boobs? The room you reached may represent a slew of different businesses, albeit under one ownership...

But I do think it's a certainty that CDing is vastly commoner than has been supposed and that X-ray vision would reveal a lot of pink panties under blue jeans and grey business suits. Which I find rather a turn on.

What strikes me as odder is that more companies aren't yet producing good quality feminine clothing, including underwear, specifically for men. There are some, of course, but they tend to be expensive and their idea of style and choices of fabrics is usually very disappointing.

[Gillian Gigs]

Common questions that a CD'er asks themselves.
1. Why do I like to wear womens clothes?
2. How can I get people/spouse to accept me?
3. How many of us Cd'ers are out there?
Answers to questions.
1. I don't know!
2. I don't know!
3. I don't know!

Until the social stigma of CD'ing goes away, I doubt the answers will change. Personally, I think there are a lot more of us out there than most people think there are. If we define a CD'er as someone who likes to wear some article of women's clothing, ei) panties, pantihose, cami's, etc, then I am willing to bet that percentage number would come close to 25%. Now who out there is willing to admit that their taste in underwear is on the feminine side of things? Not many other than the individuals who are going the whole nine yards!

PS: the question of underdressing is a common theme in postings, so it seems that many of us wonder how common it is.

[Shayla]

In discussions with my therapist, she indicated that the numbers she has seen published and in discussions with her peers, she would put the number of hetero-identifying cross dressers (anything from panties once in a while to en femme 24/7) as up to 2% of the male population. That is a significant number, larger than some state populations. There are more of us out there than I would have previously guessed!

[Micki_Finn]

So you’re wondering if actual research is faulty and your totally made-up numbers wild speculation might be more accurate? I’m gonna guess no.

[Pat]

Two things stand out to me:

1. It's been talked to death and you can't draw any conclusions from the logged-in versus guest numbers. None.

2. There are a whole class of routinely recurring threads that basically say, "There must be more of us out there because <some secondary indicator.>" OK. You may be right. In fact, you probably ARE right because the numbers from, say, the Williams Institute (which are the most often quoted) are gathered in a very conservative manner designed to get a more accurate minimum count than a maximum count. But until someone (e.g. census, tax form, medical intake form) asks direct questions and the public is willing to give factual answers, you won't ever know. Accept that.

[Nikki A.]

Helen you may be right, but unfortunately until we are not afraid to go out and admit we are who we are, it is a moot point. After all, gays and lesbians didn't gain acceptance until they came out and were proud of who they were.
Yes we are seeing a bit more openness among the younger generation. I'm not sure if the TG or TS members are really good "advertising" for us as they are looking to transition to being full time women. We CDs tend to like to keep a foot on both sides of the divide.

[Teresa]

Helen,
You may or may not remember but some time ago I asked the question about wanting top be out or happy in the closet and the percentage who were out or wanted to be was almost 70% , very few actually said they were content in the closet or intended to remain there .

As to your question on suppliers of upper and lower padding , some are niche manufacturers but others use similar products in a range of items not associated with CDers or cancer patients at all.

I would say very few in my social group use lower padding but I wouldn't like to say how many use forms from these suppliers . When I talk to them about my homemade ones they are very surprised and even tempted to make their own , I have to say I have been surprised what others are still using .

The performing acts like Drag Queens are possibly making up some of the market but I can't hazzard a guess at what percentage .

Again the percentage of closeted CDers is still an unknown commodity , the figure I read some time ago could be as high as 10% but that might have included on offs again where these figures are obtained I can't say .

The situation is going to change considerably by 2021 when the new national census takes place , the planned inclusion of TG related questions hopefully will give a clearer picture but also by then the figures will be filtering through from the changes in school classifications . How many school children will be classified as TG will be interesting to see .

It looks like I've answered Pat's point No 2 as far as the UK is concerned. I haven't read much from our Aussie members , I believe they've already gone down this national census road on TG issues . I'm wondering when the US will follow suit but I guess it will be a NO-NO under the current government !

[Aunt Kelly]

Hi Helen,

I would agree that money talks, but you say more in the first part of your post about running a safe haven hotel. That is probably what all of us want....a place where we can dress that is SAFE... i.e no harassment (or worse) from the idiots which exist everywhere. Those who are transgendered can't help but read and be discouraged by the number of people killed and the fact that society is being poisoned by everything from religious bigots to politicians who will say anything to get perceived votes.

I'll let the religion and politics angle go, albeit with a polite nod of agreement. I not agree, however, with the notion that we are not "safe". The suggestion that we are almost certain to be beset by the ignorant and intolerant is just not backed up by the experiences of most of us who go out. There are lots of valid reasons to stay in, but the risk of violence is not one of them if one uses the most common of sense. There are many venues where I would not go, but I wouldn't go to most of them in boy mode either. In truth, I have encountered the occasional gape-mouthed stare or outright glare, but that's it. That's not the same as "unsafe".

I am not advocating a crusade to somehow inure society to our presence, but as some have already observed, broader acceptance will come with broader exposure. So to everyone of us who wants to go out, but has not been able to take that step I say two things. First, I acknowledge that there are valid reasons to stay in. If you can't risk recognition for social, career, or other reasons, common sense precludes public appearances. Second, barring the concerns just stated, the world, by and large does not care. You really can go shopping, dine out, or engage in whatever activity strikes your fancy as long as you comport yourself as would any female in similar circumstances. Is it scary, that first time out, especially alone? Of course it is, but that fear is almost always borne of guilt and ignorance. If you give yourself permission to be yourself, so will everyone else, especially if you approach every encounter with grace and confidence. That waiter, hotel clerk, sales associate probably has nothing against you and will respond positively to that confidence and grace.

Hugs,


Kelly

[Ineke Vashon]

What if....... What if a regular store, like Kohls, Target, Macy's or ? would advertise that crossdressers would be welcome in their store, and let it be known that at least one of their S/As would be specifically trained to cater to and assist a crossdresser shop in the store? Would that bring out that certain percentage who have been hiding for now? Would the store realize the potential sales?

Ineke

[Teresa]

Ineke,
It's already been rolled out in many stores in the UK . Evans I believe were the first because they sell larger sizes in clothes and shoes , I've never had a problem , the main obstacle is your own mind and how you feel about shopping for yourself and not the attitude of the SAs.

[kayegirl]

A very interesting post, and I find myself agreeing with much that Helen has put forward. I do wonder however about census information. As one who has worked as an enumerator on the 71, 81 AND 1991 UK national census, I think that many people will either object to the gender/sexuality questions, or simply put in a fictitious answer, after all how many put Jedi in the question about religion? Additionally, don't be fooled into thinking that these surveys are anonymous, each completed forms can be tracked back to thensure individual household, and if you are in the closet, you are hardly likely to say so in a census. Remember there are lies, darn lies and statistics.

[SaraLin]

What if....... What if a regular store, like Kohls, Target, Macy's or ? would advertise that crossdressers would be welcome in their store, and let it be known that at least one of their S/As would be specifically trained to cater to and assist a crossdresser shop in the store? Would that bring out that certain percentage who have been hiding for now? Would the store realize the potential sales?

Ineke

While I would love to have such a thing, I don't see it happening - at least not in the US - any time soon.

Personally, I'm afraid that by doing such an open move, the store would be placing itself in the cross-hairs of so many political, religious, and just-plain-bigoted hate groups that their business would suffer much more than it would gain.

Sad.


(trying to get back to topic...) everything I've ever heard over the years puts the number of crossdressers at around 2-3%. This is just what I've heard, and not all scientific or the result of any research (IOW basically useless). But- If I were to take that number and figure that maybe 1 in 5 (at best) people when asked, would admit it, this puts the number maybe as high as 10-15 percent.

I guess we'll never know, though.

[Pat]

What if....... What if a regular store, like Kohls, Target, Macy's or ?

Target did announce a trans-friendly policy and was immediately hit with a boycott by conservatives. I don't believe the boycott has been especially effective, but I don't think other major US stores will step into that space before, say, November 2020 (to pick a date out of a hat... ;) )

[Teresa]

Kaye,
I don't wish to sidetrack the issue too much but the government is claiming to need new statistics to make adequate arrangement and available budgets to deal with the TG community. We mustn't forget that it is an offence to make a false declaration . I'm glad that I will be living alone so I can make honest answers , it posed a problem if I'd still been living me my wife .

Maybe I'm being a little naive but I'm hoping it might encourage some to come out of the closet and be counted . OK on the other side of the coin , how much should we trust the government and where else will the information be available ?

[Jean 103]

I know some of these people and they are never going to come out, more or less be counted.

I would say it is impossible to accurately count a population that hides.

I don't see the public in general embarrassing the image of a line backer in a miniskirt anytime soon.

As far as these big stores , I go to them all the time with no problems . I find the SA' s to be friendly and accepting, at least on the surface, and get the feeling that most are genuine.

[Helen_Highwater]

A very interesting post, and I find myself agreeing with much that Helen has put forward. I do wonder however about census information. As one who has worked as an enumerator on the 71, 81 AND 1991 UK national census, I think that many people will either object to the gender/sexuality questions, or simply put in a fictitious answer, after all how many put Jedi in the question about religion? Remember there are lies, darn lies and statistics.


So you’re wondering if actual research is faulty and your totally made-up numbers wild speculation might be more accurate? I’m gonna guess no.

Micki,

I make no claim to my writings having any basis in rigorous scientific research. The points Kaye makes regarding the truthfulness of peoples responses to census and surveys questionnaires is to me a very valid one. I must admit that if I was face to face with a researcher and I was asked direct questions that required me to disclose the fact that I CD, the chances are I'd lie. No matter how many assurances were offered about confidentiality at that moment in time I'd be admitting to a stranger that I dress in women's clothing. Given I admit it every time I go out dressed I can see the paradox in that but to sit opposite a complete stranger and discuss this would push my boundaries of confidence. Even filling in a totally anonymous paper questionnaire might cause me angst.

So if there's a reason to doubt scientific or social research much of it collected historically during a time when CD'ing held a far more social taboo surely it's not unreasonable to consider alternative ways of exploring social trends. Try this; go to Amazon and search for "false breasts". Pages and pages of them. The same is true for eBay. True many of the ads are from the same supplier but it's also true that there's dozens of different suppliers. So I still think that my point about if the market wasn't there then there wouldn't be this number of sellers is a valid one.


What makes you think they're only selling pads and false boobs? The room you reached may represent a slew of different businesses, albeit under one ownership..

Nikki,

In answer to your point it's true they could be operating a number of businesses selling all sorts of items. What I can also say is when I called the hip pad supplier at first there was a little confusion as they couldn't find my online order. It turned out they operate 2 businesses, both selling the same stock items via the net. So in this case it was 2 companies, one owner, same products.

And I totally agree with Pat's comment "But until someone (e.g. census, tax form, medical intake form) asks direct questions and the public is willing to give factual answers, you won't ever know. Accept that." However is that a reason not to pose questions? I think not. If someone were to calculate the value of the businesses selling these items it could be a truer indicator of the number of folks like us than any survey could ever achieve.

One final point: I've never, as far as I can remember, read a post here were a member has talked about their SO buying forms or hip pads to enhance their figure. So if it's GG's driving a proportion of the sales, where are they? Where's the evidence for that?

[Sarasometimes]

I would venture to guess that our numbers are greater than what most surveys or research acknowledge. Not necessarily by any fault or the researchers but we are an illusive bunch. I think the OP could be onto something in terms of other ways to count "us" could be those who sell to us.

[Teresa]

Helen,
Just to take the point about admitting to a stranger about wearing women's clothes, that point no longer bothers me, I'm not ashamed to admit it now I know what the reasons are behind it . Again I may be naive to take it at face value but it's another way of bringing the whole issue out into the open and gaining recognition . If my plan to run my art group takes off I will appreciate all the recognition the TG community can get .

[Helen_Highwater]

Teresa,

It's for me just one of those things. In drab I know I'd find it very difficult to talk about my CD'ing. When dressed I'd talk for England to anyone who would listen.

In fact I'll deliberately try to engage people, SA's, people on a bus or in the queue, anyone as I want them to know I'm a person and not an object to be wondered about. I see it as part of bringing us into the mainstream, just another member of society. Not strange, just dressed a bit differently.

What you're planning to do with your art group to me falls under that umbrella. It's a double win. Those in your group will just have a CD'er in charge and think, "So what, no big deal", and report that to family and friends. You writing about it here will inspire others to take their own steps out into the wider world.

There will always be those for whom circumstance or fear of consequences will not be able to follow those of us who have been fortunate enough to cross the threshold and experience the freedom to interact with the wider society. All we can hope for is that our scribblings help give that little extra confidence boost to those with their hand resting on the door handle.

[sometimes_miss]

What strikes me as odder is that more companies aren't yet producing good quality feminine clothing, including underwear, specifically for men. There are some, of course, but they tend to be expensive and their idea of style and choices of fabrics is usually very disappointing.
Why would they, when what most of us want, is genuine female clothing, and there are plenty of places which sell that already. The market is quite flexible; if there's enough people who want to buy things, the merchants will magically appear.

Common questions that a CD'er asks themselves.
1. Why do I like to wear womens clothes?
<snip>
Answers to questions.
1. I don't know!

You forgot the rest of the answer to part 1:
1. I don't want to know!
The fear of being gay is still with most of us. We see it constantly with the discussion of ourselves in third person, and with the fabrication of a second person with a separate name which is also used in third person, when referring to themselves as their feminine 'side'. Then add in the number who profess that they are completely straight, BUT are turned on by the idea of intimate contact with another man BUT ONLY when they are dressed as a woman. They cannot accept that they could ever feel any homosexual desires, much less enjoy them. It's simply not acceptable in our western societies. We're brought up that way, and as such, most simply cannot ever get past that.

The exaggerated numbers which so many people come up with for the percentage of the population who are crossdressers, is easily explained; we want to believe that we are normal. We want to believe that there are lots of others like us. So one would simply claim that there are plenty of other crossdressers out there, despite there being no evidence of them actually existing, as there's no way to actually know. I could claim that 95% of all men are regular crossdressers, but 94.9% are closeted. I might be correct. There's simply no way to know.

[Stephanie47]

What if....... What if a regular store, like Kohls, Target, Macy's or ? would advertise that crossdressers would be welcome in their store, and let it be known that at least one of their S/As would be specifically trained to cater to and assist a crossdresser shop in the store? Would that bring out that certain percentage who have been hiding for now? Would the store realize the potential sales?
Ineke

In my city/county a number of years ago a female owner of a consignment/thrift store was interviewed on a local television statement. She openly expressed she opened the store with the intent of aiding cross dressing men buy women's clothing. She was sincere. She perceived a market that was not being accommodated. I do not believe she remained in business too long. There was another women's clothing store located in a shopping plaza that had a small sign right to the entry door indicating cross dressers were welcomed and could make appointments also. The store went out of business. That is not to say women did not patronize the stores, but, it is a cutthroat business even of the consignment store level.

I think most men are not comfortable at all with being identified as a cross dresser. Even on this site there are endless forays into the wild in the dead of night to places where one cannot be seen, and, the proclamation "I did it!" I think there is a bona fide fear out there. For the most part gay men and lesbian women can fit into the landscape unnoticed by the public. Unless there are public displays of affection nobody will notice. And, the majority of people really do not care what someone does behind closed doors or in the bedroom. Just the physical nature of the male beast makes it difficult for a man to go unnoticed in women's clothing. You really cannot hide in public.

I don't think anyone will ever get an accurate count of cross dressing men.

[Meghan4now]

What if....... What if a regular store, like Kohls, Target, Macy's or ? would advertise that crossdressers would be welcome in their store, and let it be known that at least one of their S/As would be specifically trained to cater to and assist a crossdresser shop in the store? Would that bring out that certain percentage who have been hiding for now? Would the store realize the potential sales?

Ineke
Well,

In November the HRC published it's top places to work for the LBGT. The score is a composite of 5 categories that iclude anti discrimination, benefits, community response and support and education. Companies with perfect scores increased from the 500+ to600+ this year. On the list were most major retailers and the airline industry, as well as a automotive, mfg, medical and legal firms. What this means is that most retail does in fact have policies in place to avoid trans discrimination. While individuals and local stores.may not be always in compliance, this is changing, and the corporate office will in fact review reported violations. Statistics may be difficult still, but I bet you Google and amazon probably have an algorithm that is frighteningly accurate already. Maybe we should ask them?

P.S. The census Bureau discovered decades ago that statistical analysis and sampling is FAR more accurate than larger canvassing. FAR FAR more accurate. It just takes a better algorithm and a secondary unconnected verification method. Which is why Conway's speculations are so valuable