The gender of clothing

[Heisthebride]

I know that tradition and social acceptance defines that skirts and dresses are for women. At some point women decided they could wear pants and by doing so took some part of the male dominated world with it. It’s totally acceptable for women to wear men’s clothing. But it’s still seen as taboo for men to wear women’s clothing. Arguably because it’s seen as giving up power and taking a lesser role, which is wrong.

It’s never too early for New Years resolutions so. Once a month in 2018 I will wear “women’s” clothes the whole day, inside my house and outside in public in an effort to help normalize the fact that it doesn’t matter what you wear. If you want to wear a dress, then wear a dress.

I know, big deal, once a month. Why not just all the time? As of right now it’s still considered an oddity. I’m not sure I have the energy to explain myself every day. So for now, baby steps. Wish me luck.

[Jean 103]

Sounds good.

If you dress everyday that becomes the new norm, even if it is only in your world.

The more and more people get to know you, the more it all becomes normal.

I went to Christmas dinner at my best friends parents last night. The family all know me. There was this new girl there, her daughters best friend. I sat next to her and talked to her as she didn't know anyone there. On the way home my best friend asked me if I told her that I'm TG. I said no it never came up, you don't think she knows, I'm flattered.

You don't need to explain yourself to everyone you meet.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Roman warriors built a vast empire while wearing what were effectively short skirts. Their ruling class wore long lengths of fabric in a style that we would associate far more with women than with men - as did the Ancient Greeks. Various Slavic national costumes included man-skirts, and we all know about Scotland, where the tradition is still firmly entrenched. In many parts of Asia men wear sarongs, and so does David Beckham from time to time - so do I for that matter. In Africa various tribes wear 'skirts', or long lengths of fabric wound around themselves, in bright colours- they wear jewellery and necklaces too.

Then there's the Western world, which prides itself so strongly on its liberality and sophistication; it's modernity, it's cosmopolitanism, and regards itself as a more evolved section of humanity, presumably because we don't wear skirts and we've got more mobile phones than them and a wide selection of ready-meals.

Somewhere we got our wires crossed, didn't we?

Anybody got any idea what went wrong?

[kimdl93]

It’s certainly a statement to set one day aside each month. I hope you also take enjoyment from the experience!

[Pat]

At some point women decided they could wear pants and by doing so took some part of the male dominated world with it. It’s totally acceptable for women to wear men’s clothing.

And, by the way, they were beaten, imprisoned and murdered for doing it, so in fact they fought for the right to wear "men's" clothes. Just sayin...

[Micki_Finn]

Most women do NOT wear make clothes. Just because they wear pants or button down shirts, those are still cut FOR WOMEN and are not men’s clothes. It’s a false equivalency that crops up here from time to time on these forums.

[Ressie]

There were no pants made for women - not that long ago. I watched a "gay in Hollywood" documentary on youtube the other day. There were actresses in the 30s that had the nerve to wear men's pants. It was pretty much taboo at that time as women only wore skirts and dresses. So maybe in 25-50 years crossdressing will on the same level as women wearing pants today.

[Jaymees22]

Today it seems a rarity to see any women wearing skirts or dresses. In fact today I'm wearing pants, woman's pants. So even when a woman wears a dress it looks unusual and some people notice. Good luck on your resolution.

[char GG]

Thank you Pat, Micki Finn & Ressie. You are the voices of reason of a topic that is a pet peeve of mine. Women usually do not wear "men's" clothes. They wear clothes made for women, cut for women, and the fashion norm for women. (There are exceptions where women do buy clothes in the men's department for whatever reason). Women who wear pants/jeans typically do not run around trying to make the outside world think they are men. They do not want people to call them "a man and/or sir". It is irritating to hear men try to justify their CDing by saying "women wear men's clothes". Just own up to the fact that you like to wear dresses/skirts.

Obviously there are CD/Transwomen but that is a different story does not seem to be what the OP was talking about.

[Heisthebride]

Thank you Pat, Micki Finn & Ressie. You are the voices of reason of a topic that is a pet peeve of mine. Women usually do not wear "men's" clothes. They wear clothes made for women, cut for women, and the fashion norm for women. (There are exceptions where women do buy clothes in the men's department for whatever reason). Women who wear pants/jeans typically do not run around trying to make the outside world think they are men. They do not want people to call them "a man and/or sir". It is irritating to hear men try to justify their CDing by saying "women wear men's clothes". Just own up to the fact that you like to wear dresses/skirts.

Obviously there are CD/Transwomen but that is a different story does not seem to be what the OP was talking about.

I don’t think I’m trying to justify anything, I do admit that I like to wear skirts and dresses. Historically, pants were not women’s wear and over the years they have become a norm and fit specifically for women. My point is why should there be men’s wear and women’s wear. In my perfect world I would be able to wear skirts and not have to fully crossdress, makeup, etc.

[Melanie Moxon]

Most women do NOT wear make clothes. Just because they wear pants or button down shirts, those are still cut FOR WOMEN and are not men’s clothes. It’s a false equivalency that crops up here from time to time on these forums.

Indeed. There are physical differences (that we are all aware of) between the physique of men and women, therefore there are such things and mens and womens clothes as they are cut to fit different body shapes.

I'm certainly not the dressy type (I'm not saying that my wardrobe will not gain a number of dresses, though they would be reserved for situations where they are required, much as my sole suit is now) the rest of the time I'll be found in jeans, teamed with some sort of womens footwear (boots or flats) and top of some description.

For those that watch the NCIS series, think along the lines of the female agents in that, Agent Gregorio especially :daydreaming:

[Micki_Finn]

There is men’s wear and women’s wear because our bodies are fundamentally different. Would you be ok they decided to take your advice and make the clothes for both genders the same but settled on suits and ties as the standard? What you’re really bemoaning is the fact that you feel society doesn’t allow you to dress in the way you want to dress. The clothes themselves have nothing to do with it.

[Heisthebride]

There is men’s wear and women’s wear because our bodies are fundamentally different. Would you be ok they decided to take your advice and make the clothes for both genders the same but settled on suits and ties as the standard? What you’re really bemoaning is the fact that you feel society doesn’t allow you to dress in the way you want to dress. The clothes themselves have nothing to do with it.

That is spot on correct, I have no issue with different cuts for different shapes. I would like to wear comfortable jeans one day, a nice skirt and T-shirt another, a suit out to a nice dinner and a full on dressed to the nines cocktail dress, heels and makeup to a party.

[tbryant2k16]

A woman can go into the Men's section, buy a shirt or bottoms for her personal use and wear it as she pleases. No one bats an eye, and it's accepted. Yet when a man does it, it's taboo and not highly accepted.

[sometimes_miss]

If you dress everyday that becomes the new norm, even if it is only in your world. The more and more people get to know you, the more it all becomes normal.
Not necessarily. To most, we will then simply always be referred to as 'the transvestite' that they see every day. We won't be considered 'normal' to them. To ourselves, it will feel and seem normal. Not to others, because to them, seeing and interacting with a man crossdressed as a woman will still be felt as unusual, much the same way as if they knew a man who always had a squirrel monkey sitting on his head: He would never be considered normal; only that seeing him in such a state, would be a common occurance.

[lingerieLiz]

Yes there are clothes that women wear that are men's. Many restaurants have waitresses wear men's dress shirts. Many souvenir T-shirts are men's yet we see women wearing them. In all these situations the women don't acquire the piece of clothing for the satisfaction of wearing "men's" clothing.

[Kathie Pantyhose]

I would LOVE the chance to wear skirts in public and it be acceptable. Nothing above mid thigh (but I do have the legs) though....Kilt length maybe would be socially acceptable vs shorter. i do wear woman's 4" shorts in public (again the whole legs brag earlier...sorry) and as a avid cyclist now living and riding in Boulder, Colorado, I can get away with smooth legs and arms so the shorter shorts just are a step closer to a skirt.

I am noticing more guys wearing running tights with their knee length shorts in a lot of places including at the stores around. if we all close our eyes really tight and say every day, today is the day skirts are accepted for men, maybe it will happen from positive thinking. Until that time, i'll just keep wearing my skirts on the drive home and when I work from home. Full dress those days!

bi for now
kp

[Tracii G]

Wear whatever you wish and who cares what others think and what they will say?
I haven't worn men's clothes for 10 years and its OK no body cares really.
It looks like you are the one with the problem with wearing womens clothes. The rest of the world could care less.
I have seen guys in skirts a few times in the last year and they really didn't cause a stir among people around them.
Women that wear pants are not wearing men's clothes they are womens pants OK its not the 1950's anymore.
That whole argument that women can wear men's clothes but men can't wear women's clothes does not not hold water so please lets not beat that dead horse.

[Esther Latour]

I used to think ik would be great if society "allowed" men to wear anything they liked but lately I am having this nagging suspicion that I like the clothes that I like BECAUSE they are for women. Maybe I kind of need there to be a boundary so I can cross it.
Of course there were/are many cultures where men wear things we would call a skirt but those cultures have their own, often very strict, gender norms when it comes to clothing. Roman society was not unisex paradise.

[Jane G]

Good on you girl. I may never have the strength to follow your lead, but the effort is appreciated.

[Pat]

A woman can go into the Men's section, buy a shirt or bottoms for her personal use and wear it as she pleases. No one bats an eye, and it's accepted.

You should try reading some of the essays written by Female-to-Male folks about the wild paranoia they feel when they go into the men's section to buy clothing. It reads exactly the same as the wild paranoia that you find in posts here when Male-to-Female go buying women's clothes. The same "will they know it's for me?" questions, the same fear of discovery and shame.


Yes there are clothes that women wear that are men's. Many restaurants have waitresses wear men's dress shirts. Many souvenir T-shirts are men's yet we see women wearing them.

Interesting viewpoint. The clothing is only available in one cut -- why do you assume that it's men's? ;)

When I was in the Army (long ago) I wore fatigues or flying suits every day. They looked exactly like the fatigues and flying suits that the women wore -- were the women wearing men's uniforms? Or were we just all wearing the same uniform (a uniform uniform, if you will) in whatever size was appropriate?

[char GG]

@heisthebride

Historically, pants were not women’s wear and over the years they have become a norm and fit specifically for women. My point is why should there be men’s wear and women’s wear.

History goes back a long time. Throughout history, men and women have worn different styles of clothing. The norm in this decade is that women wear pants, specifically fitted for women. There were countries, not that long ago where men and women wore the same thing (think the look of hospital scrubs). There are also countries currently where men and women wear clothes that look like robes. Since you live in the USA, I assume you are talking about the USA in 2017. So you want to wear skirts, makeup, etc. wear them. Just own it. Don't try to justify it by saying that women who wear pants are CDing.

MOST women in pants are not trying to pass as men. They are happy being women in pants. When you wear skirts & makeup, are you trying to pass as a woman? Are you happy just being a man in a dress?

Thank you Traci G:

That whole argument that women can wear men's clothes but men can't wear women's clothes does not not hold water so please lets not beat that dead horse.

By the way, have you seen some of the current fashions that designers are trying to sell specifically made for men? Shorts of many colors combined with suit jackets, skirts paired with multi-colored jackets & ties, etc. My husband says he wouldn't be caught dead in them and frankly, neither would I! Men should make their wishes known to the people who design clothes for men. If skirts were commonplace for men, would you like them as well? Or is the attraction to women's clothes because you just want to wear clothes made for the opposite gender. And as for makeup, I'm seen more and more young men wearing makeup with their guy clothes.

[Tina_gm]

Not too long ago men didn't have long hair or wear ear rings either....

[Eva Bella]

The typical straight male grows up in a very confined box in terms of clothing and appearance. We're extremely conformist and much of our clothing is designed NOT to stand out. But with that anonymity comes a sense of comfort.

The reality is that we're really free to wear whatever we want. Acceptance isn't an issue, but you have to be prepared to go out of your comfort zone. Women do this all of the time. They have infinitely more options on their appearance, but also much more evaluation and judgement for the choices they make. Not to mention the time and cost that goes into their whole presentation.

I firmly believe that our limitations are in our own head. It takes confidence, but there's no reason why you can't wear a skirt outside on your free time. I've traveled to countless places en femme, and it's really not a big deal. But you have to own it.

[DaisyLawrence]

Eva makes a good point about limitations being in our own head.

My wife generally wears what many are describing here as 'mens' clothes (although from the womenswear department). She does it for comfort, practicality and ease. The difference is, that when dressed say in jeans and a jumper like many men, she is still presenting as female. She too loves to get dressed up once in a while but she also suffers from worry that people will not like her outfit and will criticise it if not perfect.
As generally only women wear dresses, if a man wears one he is no longer presenting as male. If he passes as female there is NO lack of acceptance, he is just another woman out and about. If he does not pass there is the conflict in peoples minds. However, any bloke in the western world is free to wear anything they like anytime as long as it passes any local laws on decency. Whether or not any one person does not like it is irrelavant. I see many people everday, without any gender non-comforming clothing, who I think look a blooming mess for one reason or another and I wish they had stayed home so as to improve the quality of my visual experience! I may even stare and comment behind their backs but I have a right to object to anything I do not like and they have the right to object to me. Lets just keep our objections to ourselves is all I suggest.

[susan54]

Trying to expand our clothing choices by arguing that women should not have them is unproductive and does not help anyone. As some have said you can actually go out in a skirt or dress as a man if you want in most western countries. I have often worn a skirt as a man in public. Only once have I had a negative reaction - a woman shop owner ran her eyes up and down me with a withering look and shook her head. I found it amusing not upsetting - and that is as bad as it ever got. Even schoolchildren walked by without paying any attention to me.

I remember back in the early 1970s women liked wearing jeans and had to buy men's jeans because they didn't make them for women then. They had to pull the belt in tight to make them fit.

The solution is in our own hands. To change attitudes men have to be seen as much as possible in womenswear. There is a massive difference between a man wearing a skirt, tights and heels and one wearing false boobs, make up and a wig and presenting as a woman and we should not pretend otherwise. Both should be OK in our society and - you know what - they are - it is just a matter of turning tolerance into total acceptance.

[Jennifer_Ph]

My wife got me a Utilikilt for Christmas... I absolutely LOVE wearing it. It's funny though, I feel so damn manly wearing it! I think that's why I like it so much.

[Krisi]

This subject has already been discussed here a thousand times but what the heck...................

You can wear anything you want as long as your butt and genitals are covered but if you have a family or a job, you should consider the effect wearing a dress in public will have on them. People will think you are either gay or some sort of nut case. If that doesn't bother you or affect your family or job, fine. If it does affect one or both, you need to think about this.

Personally, I don't want the hassle of trying to explain to friends and others why I'm wearing a dress and my wife would be really embarrassed by it so I'll refrain from wearing a dress as Homer. I will wear dresses and other female attire in public but only after the full transition to Krisi.

[Tina_gm]

Great point Krisi. It may not be right that society has created such strong expectations of gender norms, but because it may not be right doesn't mean they don't exist and that others aren't going to be affected by them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't go against them either, it is just something worth considering that it isn't just ourselves who will be affected by whatever negativity by going against gender norms.

[natalie edwards]

Replied to wrong thread

[newlybronwyn]

A couple of days ago I took the decision to reorder my clothing so that my storage isn't separated into mens and women's clothing. They're just my clothes. My skirts live with my trousers, my high heels live with my work steel toe caps etc and I feel wonderful for doing it. The thing to remember is that they aren't women's clothes or mens clothes. They're MY clothes.

I can mix and match between them for any occasion, whether that occasion is around the house and its a skirt or womens jumper or work which is all masculine style or a trip to the cinema with my wife which would be a men's top, bootcut jeans and a heeled boot. Or whatever I'm feeling up for at that exact moment. 2018 is going to be the year of not caring what random people on the street think of me.

[Judy-Somthing]

Back in the 60's the High School in my town didn't allow girls to wear jeans so the girls protested for about two weeks and won the right.

I don't remember any boys protesting to wear dresses!