In a bit of a pickle

[JustEmJay]

Hi everyone! I've never posted before and have been an observer for over a year. I've been CDing for 3 years, I'm 25 and have been married for 5 years to an amazing, supportive wife, which I know I'm extremely lucky to have. The last couple weeks i notice my wife being very distant sexually and emotionally. We both have very high paced jobs and its a hectic time of year so I assumed it was nothing. Yesterday I confronted her on the situation and she tells me that she may be a lesbian. I was kind of shocked honestly but I knew from the past she had a thing for women so it wasn't a surprise I guess. She's saying she wants to be with me, doesn't want to lose me or our family so in a sense that is safe. My main problem is that she wants a woman physically, which is something I can't give obviously, but I wish I could. I've been muddling over transition the last year but I don't think I would ever get a reassignment surgery. I told her I would try to be as en femm as often as possible to give her more of a lesbian vibe to our marriage, but I'm worried one day I wont be enough as man or woman. It's been a confusing experience to say the least, and if anyone here has experiance,or advice I'm all ears. I'm sorry if I seemed to ramble. Thanks in advance and Happy New Year!

[Teresa]

Em,
It sounds as if she should talk to a counsellor to get to the truth, it might be a passing phase so try and get her to stop worrying about it and take it on a daily basis. She may find your dressing enough eventually to satisfy her feelings . You don't mention any children , if you haven't any would that help or cause more of a problem or she set against having them at all ?

[Tracii G]

I could say so much here but I'm afraid to.
If you don't have any kids don't assume having a kid will fix any of these issues.
This just me talking but I would want to know the truth because I think she is not being honest with you.

[JustEmJay]

Thanks for responding Teresa, as of right now she has agreed to see a counselor and to take things a day at a time. We do have two children and they are 1 and 4, so it's still a delicate age for any drastic changes and my wife understands that. I actually think having the kids is a great help, more of a reason to make it work

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks Tracii, I think she's being honest but I guess you never know. I don't plan on using the kids to make it work, but keeping the family whole is my concern at the moment so for now just living on a prayer and hoping all cards are on the table so to speak.

[Stacy Darling]

I haven't been in the same situation as you are, but definitely a pickle.

I presented as male in my first marriage and Cd'ed in private, but in all senses I was the less dominant in all roles, physically as well. My wife did turn full lesbian in the end, I did suspect it from before we married but was quite happy with the role reversal and more than met any of her expectations.

End result for me though was that my wife didn't "NEED" her "pretty little toy boy sissy" husband in the end, but wanted a real woman. She now has a Female partner and they both look more masculine than I.

I do wish you luck in sorting through this situation, it could go in any direction from here!

I also do hope that your wife isn't testing you or messing with your mind.

Stacy!

[Tracii G]

Thanks for the added information about kids and all and their well being is always a prime concern.
I agree in keeping the family together.

[Micki_Finn]

There is a lot going on here, but in the end the issue is you wife’s. All you can really do is be supportive and patient and hope for the best. I’ll be honest, you guys got married really young so I’m not surprised questions have arisen. It’s a tough situation and I hope for the best for you.

[Stephanie47]

I do agree with Micki you got married too young and compounded it with children. That's water under the bridge. Several points of conjecture. I have to assume you and your wife both had inklings of some underlying sexual identity issues. If you have lurked here for some time you surely read threads of cross dressers believing getting married was a cure for cross dressing. In all probability your wife was fighting urges by taking the heterosexual marriage route. When you start cross dressing you changed the dynamics of the marriage. No longer is it a traditional husband-wife relationship. Your cross dressing may have contributed to her desire to explore her sexuality. She no longer has to conform to a tradition-typical man-woman marriage.

I guess it is possible "for the sake of the children" to stay married in ultimately a brother/sister relationship with each of you exploring your sexuality. Personally, children are quick to pick up on everything. In other words "staying together for the sake of the kids" really is not beneficial for the kids. They'll eventually see through the charade.

[Teresa]

Em,
Sorry I don't agree with Stephanie , as parents those children are reliant on you , they know nothing of these adult problems , they are your responsibility so now you must act like responsible adults . OK you have a CDing problem and your wife is questioning her sexual preferences , kids will bring you so much pleasure I would suggest you stick with it . It's one regret I don't have to live, with I've finally come out to most people and are going to separate now in my 60s but I have the full support because I've have been there for them as a father and husband . I hope you can both hold it together for them .

[DaisyLawrence]

Good advise (as is often the case) from Mikki, well expanded by Stephanie. Read those replies again. You were young but it does not mean you can't work it out if you love each other. Good luck.

Teresa, it is for the OP to work out their own future and 'staying together for the kids' is dangerous advise. In your nearly 7000 posts your have repeatedly told us two things, firstly that you have no regrets because you did the right thing for your family which is why they are happy to accept you moving on, and secondly, that your entire married life (and therefore by extrapolation surely your wifes) has been a total misery to the point of near suicide because you could not be yourself and had to live a false life 'for the sake of the family'. Are there any winners here? I know many couples who stayed together for the kids, yet to find one that thinks that worked out well though for everyone in the end. Oh and by the way, her lesbianism 'may be a passing phase'? She is not 14 years old.

[Teresa]

Daisy,
I don't agree it's dangerous advice , taking all the people into the equation , the odds can work either way but some have the attitude that children appear to be throw away items, that they will understand adult situation and deal with them as an adult .

Yes you are right about my history but there are some good times to celebrate as well and I'm in a position to retain those memories and so are my wife and children . If we had split up so much of that would have not happened . My circumstances didn't stop me loving my wife and children, as many keep saying it's not all about us , I admit it's hard not to see that at times .
My suicidal moment wasn't premeditated , I didn't dwell on it for some time before and it did bring my life into perspective and appreciate the things I had .
Sorry but these sexual variation can happen at any time , you only have to read some of the threads of members here when they have found late in life a latent change in their preferences.

OK one question , is your life so perfect that you can dish out replies like this, you know about my life because I have chosen to be open and honest with members so maybe you could tell us how to run a perfect lifestyle !

[Helen_Highwater]

EmJay,
Just as it is with CD'ers so it is with being Gay, male or female. You can suppress it but you can't be cured of it. That I think we all know.

Your SO's decision to go to counselling is probably the best course of action as things stand. It is a possibility that she may end up classifying herself as Bisexual. If that's the case then you may find yourself asking if you can cope with a wife who, on occasion, may seek the company of another. While I appreciate for us there's no sexual element, for those out to their wife who then go out to meet other CD'ers socially, is that all that far apart from having a Bi partner? The question is can you cope with it.?

All this of course is at present supposition. Your wife needs to attend with her, and this is an important point, gender issues qualified counsellor, and take it from there.

Marriage can take many forms. Some are doomed, others will work wonderfully despite seemingly overwhelming odds. If you both stay calm and discuss things rationally then that's your best chance at an outcome best suited to the children.

I wish you both all the success possible.

[kimdl93]

It seems your family meets needs for both of you. I see no reason not to hold on to that while allowing your wife to explore her sexuality.

[Rhonda Darling]

MJ:

If I were you, I'd be interested in whether, hypothetically, were you to fully transition, all the surgeries, etc., would your wife be attracted to you as a person she would want to spend her life with -- or not. To be more clear, does she like/love you as a person, but just not attracted to you as male, but would find you completely satisfactory and fulfilling of her needs if you were transitioned?

If her real issue is you, the person, not you the male, then taking the needs of the children into account as best the two of you can, I would recommend working on an "exit strategy" from the marriage.

IMHO, YMMV.

Best regards,
Rhonda

[Stephanie47]

I do not agree with Teresa's comment at #11. My wife is an educator and she see a lot of the fallout of a bad/poor marriage in the kids. Some kids find it very difficult to understand something as common as why his or her parents are not married. They pick up on cues for social behavior. Is there love and affection shown between the parents? I really do not know how anyone can think kids are not going to pickup on these relationships. Is there going to be false displays of love and affection between man and woman and the sexual activity occurs with another partner? I guess a husband and wife can pull off a sham marriage for "the sake of the kids" but at what cost to the husband and the wife. I read this all the time of this forum. Some describe total hostility towards his or her spouse. No signs of affection displayed. Even when kids are out of the house as adults it is difficult for social and financial reasons to break the marriage. Anyway, my point was children learn interactions from those closest around them. As an example, a family living in the house next door had a physically and emotion abusive husband who went as far as breaking his wife's arm. Good role model? Their son, who was younger than their daughter, started physically abusing his sister. If 'daddy' treats a woman in that manner, why can't I do it? To my knowledge that couple never divorced. In the house on the other side we had a family whose son picked up from dad caressing mom's butt in the house all the time, it was alright for him to do that to the elementary school kids in his class. Kids can be confused by what they see or what they do not see. It is fairly well accepted kids are better off not living in a household where the parents do not love each other.

[ellbee]

Oh and by the way, her lesbianism 'may be a passing phase'? She is not 14 years old.

I don't have much time right now to respond to other parts of the OP, but I will say this...


I had always been interested in GG's. Attraction, relationships, sex, etc. Hetero all the way.


Of course, my "gnawing curiosity" finally got the better of me, and I ended up having a sexual relationship -- with a guy. But only when I was all dolled-up, and I took on the traditional female role.

It was nice, to put it mildly... But ultimately, I discovered that it wasn't personally for me. Back to the GG's, thanks.


And yes, I do consider it a "passing phase," on some levels.

Oh, I was in my early 30's at the time. ;)



Anyway, I'm assuming the OP's wife is fairly young -- without much time or opportunity to explore, apparently. Maybe it's just a temporary thing? Or perhaps she may discover that she is les, after all. Or bi? :strugglin

[Teresa]

Stephanie,
Physical abuse is a totally different thing , no one should put up with that and kids shouldn't be eye witness to it . parents may not love each other but hopefully they don't stop loving their kids .

I'm sure people in the education profession could tell stories with either bias , I personally feel I've done the right thing , it does come at a price but I haven't lost my kids and that's so important to me no matter how I physically present myself .

[JustEmJay]

Thank you to everyone who responded it's definitely appreciated. For now I'm going to take it a day at a time and see where it goes. If I end up hurt, or perfectly happy isn't something I'm in control of so I might as well see where the rabbit hole leads. It's really nice to know I can find support here. Thank you again

[Teresa]

Em,
I hope it does work out for you , it's good to know you have someone to talk to .

[mykell]

my friend is a lesbian,
she says im one two, i would never introduce myself as one.....but their are different types of lesbians......my friend says she is a fem but is attracted to stuuuuds.
now we get along really well and i wouldn't call her feminine, does not like purses and would not be attracted to someone who uses them.

so for me i would think i was a lipstick lesbian if i had to pick a description. so you and the Mrs. would have to talk about what likes and dislikes each has about being feminine, is it just a kink she thinks she would like, i doubt it is a phase, maybe talking to a professional would be a good idea....a little impartiality....

[Nikkilovesdresses]

The big question is, is she saying she wants lesbian sex, or that she wants to look for a lesbian full-time relationship?

It's a huge ask Em, but could you consider allowing your wife to experiment? If it was enough for her to have occasional sex with a woman perhaps that might satisfy her?

Perhaps counselling will give her clarity on which she wants. I can't imagine how hard this must be for you, but you certainly need to take her wishes very seriously.

[DaisyLawrence]

Laurababe, your experience is entirely different. You describe a sexual encounter with a male as if you had for a passing phase become gay only to change your mind. However, by your own admission you had always been attracted to GG's, 'hetero all the way' so surely this did not stop during your experimental relationship. In other words you had a passing phase of being bisexual and not gay. JustEmJay's wife did not state that she thought she was bisexual but that she was a lesbian, and that is the important factor here. A lesbian is not attracted to males, period, if they were they would be bi. A hetero woman is very unlikely to become lesbian for a phase, to do so would require her to loose all previous attraction to men. In my experiance a lesbian has probably always been a lesbian. Having an interest in women, passing or permanent, for a hetero woman is only bisexuality and that does not present any contradiction to being happily married to a male.

JustEmJay, you need to know if your wife is a bisexual or a lesbian. If the former I can see no issue. I bisexual woman can be happy in a monogamous marraige to either a man or woman, or in your case maybe a mix of the two. If the later is the case I see problems. If she is lesbian then by extrapolation she does not find you physically attractive. Maybe not a problem at age 80 but at 25 intimacy is usually important to a happy marraige. I read talk of full transition here but please remember that such things are permanent and are done for the needs of the person transitioning and should not be contemplated to satisfy the needs of some other party who may, or may not, be important to you in the long term.

Teresa, yes me and my wife have what is to us the perfect life, when we don't we change things to make them right, why wouldn't we? There is no fate but what we make. It isn't hard to achieve once you figure out what really matters in life.

[Pat]

I read talk of full transition here but please remember that such things are permanent and are done for the needs of the person transitioning and should not be contemplated to satisfy the needs of some other party who may, or may not, be important to you in the long term.

:yt: That's the absolute best piece of advice you'll get here. Transitioning to suit another is a staple fantasy of trans fiction, but a recipe for disaster in real life. ;)

[Krisi]

"Transitioning" to please another person, even your wife would be a really bad idea and I would hope you would not be allowed to do it. There's no guarantee that your wife would love you if you had a vagina and breasts if she doesn't love you with a penis and a flat, hairy chest.

There's no telling what is inside another person's head and that goes double for a spouse. Maybe the lesbian comment is just a way to let you down easy. Or maybe she's already found a lesbian lover. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

Read all the comments but really, seeking relationship advice from strangers on the Internet isn't the best way to solve your problems. I would think going to a marriage counsellor (together and separately) is the best plan.

[jennifer0918]

Wow what a tough one, I also hear staying for the kids is bad advice. Don't know what to tell you,good luck. Quick question did you know before you got married she was into girls? I have a co worker with a bi wife but he knew before hand and she stayed away woman for a couple years. Now she wants with a woman and bad ,they are now having problems,too many fights they both are unhappy.

[NicoleScott]

In Heinzsight the dill is she doesn't want the pickle any more.

[Beverley Sims]

Just do as your wife desires and don't try to push things too fast.

There is obviously a change in your relationship.

Tread carefully.

[jennifer0918]

In Heinzsight the dill is she doesn't want the pickle any more.

86 the pickle. .

[ellbee]

Laurababe, your experience is entirely different. You describe a sexual encounter with a male as if you had for a passing phase become gay only to change your mind. However, by your own admission you had always been attracted to GG's, 'hetero all the way' so surely this did not stop during your experimental relationship. In other words you had a passing phase of being bisexual and not gay. JustEmJay's wife did not state that she thought she was bisexual but that she was a lesbian, and that is the important factor here. A lesbian is not attracted to males, period, if they were they would be bi. A hetero woman is very unlikely to become lesbian for a phase, to do so would require her to loose all previous attraction to men. In my experiance a lesbian has probably always been a lesbian. Having an interest in women, passing or permanent, for a hetero woman is only bisexuality and that does not present any contradiction to being happily married to a male.

I get what you're saying. But at the same time, there's a wide swath of possibilities of what could be going on here, in the OP's case.

Here's what they wrote...

"Yesterday I confronted her on the situation and she tells me that she may be a lesbian. I was kind of shocked honestly but I knew from the past she had a thing for women so it wasn't a surprise I guess. She's saying she wants to be with me, doesn't want to lose me or our family so in a sense that is safe. My main problem is that she wants a woman physically..."


This is pretty limited info -- and rather vague, IMO.

*May* be a lesbian? What does that even mean? That she isn't attracted to men, at all, and never was? Or that she's perhaps bi/bi-curious, and has that "gnawing curiosity," as I once had? (And arguably, I agree, that my case is different, on some levels, if I may clarify my earlier post. My dominant *guy*-side is hetero, all the way. My female-side? Bi, with a leaning towards GG's. I know that may sound strange to some, but there's also a decent possibility that I may be non-binary, if one really wants to slap a label on it.)

Did the wife outright say that she wants a woman physically? Or is that the OP's words? Is it just a sexual thing, or does the wife truly want more?


Anyway, I've known gay men who were once married to GG's -- and even had kids with them. So that's not really any kind of indicator. Though in those cases, they already *knew* for sure from an early age, well before they ever met their spouses, that they were gay... and only did the whole marriage & kids thing due to family/societal pressures.

But it does sound like the wife is young, got married young, and has been in the overall relationship with the OP for quite some time, including prior to marriage (in terms of relative percentage of age).

IOW, perhaps she never had the time/opportunity to really/fully explore this part of herself & figure out who she is. It may turn out that she is, indeed, full-on lesbian, and will find her lifelong happiness with another GG. Or, as in my case, maybe she'll just be like, "Well... I came, I saw, I went" -- and go back to her hetero relationship. Hey, sometimes in one's mind, they may *think* they know what they want... But once they finally pull the trigger & act on it? They find out that it's truly not what they wanted, after all.

Oh, and that last part? Total possibility that the wife *thought* that she wanted a hetero relationship.


The OP & wife definitely have a tricky path ahead of them to navigate. But I also don't think it's necessarily an automatic sentence to doom & gloom, either, ya know? :)

[Mickitv]

I agree with many of the comments but one in particular. I think it best that you and your wife seek counseling if you both want to get past this and stay together.

[Dressing up]

I was married 16 years to a woman that accepted me, we had a great relationship. We are blessed with wonderful children. I was never 24/7 and i do not dress in front of my kids, so I had limited time over the years to explore dressing. I did feel she might have some degree of attraction to women years ago, but I did not know how strong. I realize she had no chance to explore her desires over the years. She eventually needed to explore her desires for women. That tore up the marriage, and that is difficult. I can't speak for your relationship, but one cannot deny their attractions forever without consequence I know now that she married me because she loved me, but also because of powerful expected norms of behavior from family and society.

The reason for the divorce does not ease the pain, but all pain subsides eventually. It is how you handle the path, we chose no to destroy our memories with anger and revenge I see so much in divorces around me. Neither of us got lawyers, we simply went the mediator route and divided up the assets. Kids were 50/50 custody. The first year was tough, but years later I have a good relationship with her. We still see each others family and the kids never feel like they have to chose which parent to give attention to. We spend much of our holidays together, and the kids have fond memories of the holidays before and after divorce. But we also have largely separate live as well. She is with a new partner and kids these days are much more accepting of alternative lifestyles than my generation ever was.

It may be easier for me to see her with a female partner than it would be if she married another man. I know a female can give her what I could never provide, (no, not even dressed can I be female to her.). Perhaps my feminine side helped prolong her relationship with me. Either way, it took a while but we have settled in to a good spot. She lives about a mile from me and the kids treat both houses like their own. We have been a good team trying our best to raise good kids and I think they will be better for it. Trust me, kids will be the toughest and most rewarding experience you ever take on. You needs and hers need to take 2nd place to theirs. We chose not to stay togeher and made it work. Deep in your heart and your wife's lies the answer for what is best for you. I wish you the best whatever path you follow.

Dressing up

[Alice B]

In my second marriage and after 5 years I started to lose many well established friendships. Could not figure out why and I was not a dresser in those days. Finally a business partner told me that my wife was hitting hatd on their wifes at functions and at parties. Tried the discussion and counciler route, but it did not work. She wanted to stay together in an "open" marriage. Was not my thing. She is still a friend and has never established a partership with any females that I am aware of. But it is none of my business. I had children at the time, which mat have also been an issue.

[giuseppina]

My perspective on this is as the child of two licensed high school teachers, one of which was in charge of the guidance department at a local high school. I am old enough to be your father. I hold university degrees in mathematics and engineering. The bulk of my required arts electives are in psychology and politics. I have had issues with depression, anxiety, and PTSD, particularly since my father (guidance counsellor) passed away. My main issues since then have been gratuitous drama contributing to mental health issues. The subjects of the drama included the advice provided by licensed mental health care providers and other experts in their respective fields. There was sufficient drama that the value of the advice, other than prescription medication, was limited to validation. Practical value was negligible absent proof at arms length.

First, the entire family should be seeing a qualified and licensed counsellor or group thereof. My feelings are a licenced medical practitioner (primary care physician or psychiatrist) should be in charge of the group. I think it is fair to say your older child knows there is something wrong between their parents; the baby is capable of picking up signals to this effect. As preschoolers, it's very unlikely they have the vocabulary to express their feelings about this. A skilled counsellor should be able to obtain some information from your older child.

Second, conflict in childhood, whether it is in the home or at school, or in adulthood, is an excellent setup for mental health issues, specifically mood disorders, later in life. There is published research in the professional journals available for your counsellor(s) to this effect. Executive summary: a cause and effect relationship has been established between violence, be it physical, sexual, psychological or otherwise, and mental health issues. My life story is merely anecdotal evidence, which means precisely nothing in the broader scheme of things.

Third, staying together for the sake of the children when there is a lot of drama between the parents is against the best interests of the children. This is universal advice for all relationships.

Fourth, I get the feeling that you may be thinking of a gender transition and/or genital reassignment surgery to stay in your marriage. This, too, is a poor choice. Both gender (loosely, brain sex) and sex (anatomy between the legs) are innate and separate issues. Taking hormones hoping to change brain sex is not a good idea. There is another thread open on this subject; the executive summary is hormones aren't anywhere close to the whole story. Further, Dr. John Money did some test cases around the time I was born (early 1960's) on about 30 boys whose genitals were damaged or destroyed by some means or other. He tried changing these subjects to girls, which was an abject and catastrophic failure in all cases. In short, if your wife needs another woman and your innate gender is on the male side, everyone is better off if you stay male. This is something you have to determine yourself with a qualified and licensed counsellor's help.

Fifth, your counsellor(s) have the last word on the veracity and efficacy of the advice contained in this thread, including mine.

And last, some mental health advice and all medical advice is paid for by the taxpayers in Canada. What is not covered by the taxpayer is often covered by employee benefit packages if the employer provides same. That isn't the case everywhere in the world; my comments above reflect the Canadian health care environment.