Are You a CDer that is against CDing?..

[kwebb]

Like being pushed around by an urge (CD) that goes against/violates your own moral or ethical fabric of viewing the world and how it should be.

You don't think men should be accepted in public while wearing femme attire yet you wear it yourself (albeit in the closet)?

I have been this way at various times in the past, what about you?

[Yes I am]

I believe that's called "denial," and yes it's something probably most of us have had to work through at some point.

[Julie Avery]

I have been that way in the past. Denial is a river I've spent many years boating on.

No more.

[Paula Jaye]

Denial and guilt also. Our social conditionig has led us to beleive that what we are doing is wrong and shameful.

When we are rid of these feelings life gets better. Unfortunately some can never get free of these feelings with tragic consequences.

[Audrey34]

I am a "closet crossdresser". I only dress indoors in the privacy of my apartment and that is the way I like it. My problem however is that when I do get the urge to dress up, I waffle. I'll make excuses such as "aw, it's too much trouble, the outfit'll make me look fat, I don't feel like wearing heels all evening" and so on. End result, I don't dress up and I feel miserable the day after. These days it seems I can only dress up when I'm in a REALLY good mood. It's a problem I'm still working on.
-Audrey

[Rikkicn]

It's also called internalized transphobia. It means that, we that cross dress have absorbed our cultures dislike, hatred, disgust etc, etc etc of us. It's a terrible thing!
It was first used in the gay community to describe this same thing.

We have adopted our societies opinion of us with really knowing that happened.

Knowing that, it becomes up to each one of us to examine our own feelings to determine if these feeling are really ours.

Rikki

[kathy gg]

Um, I have met online cd's who do loathe crossdressing. They hate who they are, and they hate those who are acepting of their own transness. It is a very destructive and tail-chasing cycle that actually just causes more internal pain and suffering.

I have happened upon in chat a few cd's who are just the most angry most unpleasant people. Thankfully they are few and far between. And if you add to that they are married to an unacepting spouse, well I have been a target of this form of hate on more than one occasion.

But everyone has to come to their own inner peace on their own path. Dont' mean to sound too Zen-like, but there is no guide or expereince that willl work across board. Maybe for those who suffer longer and harder come out stronger when they get over this hatred. One can hope.

[Cathy Anderson]

Like being pushed around by an urge (CD) that goes against/violates your own moral or ethical fabric of viewing the world and how it should be.
I don't believe this is denial. It's conflict.

In, say, Freudian terms, it's not much different from a struggle between the id (urges) and superego (loosely speaking, conscience).

The struggle between sexuality and conscience is as old as recorded history.
Indeed, one might suggest this struggle, and how we deal with it, is part of being human.

Denial is one way to deal with conflict. So is compromise. Here's a link to an article I wrote called, "Handling the Urge: Is Compromise Possible?"

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/urge.htm


You don't think men should be accepted in public while wearing femme attire yet you wear it yourself (albeit in the closet)?,
This is not necessarily a contradiction. In one case the dressing is public and in the other private. But I would agree with others to the extent that if one gets irrationally angry seeing a CD in public, it's probably a sign of envy.

Cathy

[Jacqui]

I have been that way in the past. Denial is a river I've spent many years boating on.

No more.


Nothing worse than being on a river without a poodle....er... I mean paddle!

[livy_m_b]

I don't believe this is denial. It's conflict....

Cathy

I've always been conflicted about it, and continue to be, but then I'm conflicted about everything! But I don't think it's denial - if anyone asked me point blank with no room for stepping out of the question's target, I would tell them. But I can be pretty quick on my heels!

[Joanie B]

[QUOTE=Cathy Anderson]I don't believe this is denial. It's conflict.

I agree, but not for the same reason. In my culture, my family, co workers, church all oppose CDing as perverted or evil. Personally, I don't see any harm in it and enjoy it. Nevertheless, I feel conflicted because of the feelings of others with whom i associate on a regular basis...

By the way, I do go out en femme often, but i don't telll the opponents about it. I have even switched churches to avoid those who would condemn my behavior (which I mentioned in post in a thread on accepting churches in this forum.)

So, I guess I am trying to suppress my socialization, and appease my "id" without violating my ego....

Does this make sense?

My 2 cents.

Joanie

[celeste26]

My CD activities are more along the lines of a fetish. I have no alter ego, no feminine personality, and after the inevitable climax there is little left but the guilt. I do the change over well since I 've had much practice but outside of the clothes there is nothing feminine about me.

Many of you out there seem to have the personality thing down well and get along famously with the outside world. Most of the time I just hide and pretend not to know all about these things.

Call it whatever you like but one chance to eliminate this whole world I live in and go back to the cultural norms I would pay anything for this. Over the years I have come to accept others choices and would never complain about what it is you all do but for me. I've said it all now.

[Bernice]

IMHO, one cannot be a crossdresser and simultaneously oppose crossdressing on any grounds. Such is both hypocritical and demonstrating a lack of integrity.

Yes, until the late 1970's when I began to realize I was not the only crossdresser in the world, I thought crossdressing was probably wrong - even though harmless. I no longer see crossdressing as "wrong". I only see those who oppose crossdressing as intolerant bigots.

I received some employer sponsored "diversity training" in the early 1990s. I don't think they realized I might apply the concept to crossdressing, but I do.

I am annoyed by people who refuse to wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle. Yet, I defend their right to make the personal decision. Is this analogy too far-fetched? What about the seeming vast majority of drivers who ignore speed limits but still profess that "speed kills"? What hypocrits! I abhor arbitrary speed limits, and I am NOT offended when someone wants to pass me! I just smile and waive them on! Anything less would be hypocritical or arrogant or both.

Sometimes the high road is complicated, and is not the path of least resistance. I still strive to stay on the high road. I think we all should.

Hugs,

Bernice

[Penny]

[QUOTE=Cathy Anderson]I don't believe this is denial. It's conflict.

I agree, but not for the same reason. In my culture, my family, co workers, church all oppose CDing as perverted or evil. Personally, I don't see any harm in it and enjoy it. Nevertheless, I feel conflicted because of the feelings of others with whom i associate on a regular basis...

By the way, I do go out en femme often, but i don't telll the opponents about it. I have even switched churches to avoid those who would condemn my behavior (which I mentioned in post in a thread on accepting churches in this forum.)

So, I guess I am trying to suppress my socialization, and appease my "id" without violating my ego....

Does this make sense?

My 2 cents.

Joanie
Some churches function through policy and doctrine; others vibrate from the heart. You can't judge a church by it's stained glass windows and you can't
judge a male CD by her clothes!

[Cathy Anderson]

In my culture, my family, co workers, church all oppose CDing as perverted or evil...I have even switched churches to avoid those who would condemn my behavior...So, I guess I am trying to suppress my socialization, and appease my "id" without violating my ego...
Well, without straying too far from this thread, let me say that it's unfortunate (or maybe a blessing in disguise) if you had to change churches because of this.

Since you raise the point, let me mention that the superego and conscience are not exactly the same--a point I intentionally (for simplicity) glossed over.

Superego is the internalized moral dictates of other people and society. Conscience is more an *innate* sense of right and wrong, a personal moral sense given to us by God. IMO, the superego is often wrong and sometimes one is correct to go against it. But that's different from going against conscience.

Another simplification I made was in calling the urge to dress merely "id." Both Freudians and Jungians would attribute the urge to the unconscious. A Freudian would see it as id (primitive impulses), but a Jungian would be more willing to see it as something like unfulfilled potential. Both might agree, however, that suppression isn't the right course, and that some kind of compromise (Freud) or reinterpretation of the conflict (Jung) would be called for.


I only see those who oppose crossdressing as intolerant bigots. How can I judge another person's motives for opposing crossdressing? I might disagree, but it seems unconstructive to just dismiss them as a bigot. It might be more productive (and set a better example) to say, "my most esteemed critic labors under a misunderstanding which I should be happy to try to dispel." :)

Cathy

[sparks]

I am tired of arguing with myself over thi point and she always wins anyways!
I too probably border on fetishism! I always joke about crossdressing individuals to my male friends if the topic comes up(not my doing honest Abe)hypocritical not really I poke fun at most things!
I try not to judge others to harshly because it is hard judge when you have a panty drawer. I've been through the self hate and sometimes still do. These are my problems, my decisions I and my male half will have to deal with.

[Tiffy]

I have been that way in the past. Denial is a river I've spent many years boating on.

No more.


Well said Julie. I agee:thumbsup:

kisses, April Marie

[MsJanessa]

Like being pushed around by an urge (CD) that goes against/violates your own moral or ethical fabric of viewing the world and how it should be.

You don't think men should be accepted in public while wearing femme attire yet you wear it yourself (albeit in the closet)?

I have been this way at various times in the past, what about you?
There seem to be some CDers in this forum who do feel that way---you have only to go throught the posts to see who they are---I feel sorry for them it must be hard to have your internal feelings in such stark contrast to your external belief system.

[Aynthem]

This is an interesting question.

I personally would rather not dress. I feel like it's a compulsion, not a choice. In that regard, I'd like to have more self discipline. Then I feel I could choose to dress or not. But as a complusion I feel its unhealthy, like overeating when depressed. I've been sexually repressed all my life. My first experimental orgasm I felt ashamed, but could not ever appraoch my parents for explanations . To this day I can't.

I accept that I do this. I think it is a manifestation of my repressed puberty. So I don't think I'm in denial. But I simply would rather not do it. Does any of this make sense?

[Cathy Anderson]

I feel like it's a compulsion, not a choice. In that regard, I'd like to have more self discipline....rather not do it...Does any of this make sense?
Something to consider: if you make it an issue of discipline, you're potentially setting the stage for further conflict. Better, perhaps, is to respond to the situation with insight, not discipline.

You allude to possible example of the kind of insight I mean. Your suggestion that your CDing might relate to sexual repression does make sense. Men repress not just sexual pleasure, but pleasure and feelings in general; and they overemphasize thinking. All this repressed stuff finds expression in the compensatory female alter ego.

So, with insight you might find that what you seek is to experience various feelings and emotions. The fantasy of being female is a vehicle, so to speak, for experiencing these things. But if you realize this, potentially you can experience these things without the fantasy.

You see, trying to deal with the problem by discipline is a typical, macho, male response--which actually strengthens the female alter ego.

Cathy

[KathrynW]

Like being pushed around by an urge (CD) that goes against/violates your own moral or ethical fabric of viewing the world and how it should be.
I can understand this completely...
yeah...I’m sure that’s a huge shock to most of you, Right? :kickbutt:

This topic somewhat goes along with the question that I'm sure most all of us in this “community” have heard before...

“If you could take a magic pill and totally and permanently erase and/or eradicate from your mind all desire whatsoever to CD...would you take it?”

I can honestly say, without hesitation, that I'd take it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, this magic pill doesn’t exist. Yes, my opinion on this goes totally against the expression “gender gifted”. Gee...what cd bimbo came up with that cutesy saying anyway? :p
How can anything that causes so much secrecy, shame, guilt, depression, etc. be considered a GIFT?
Admittedly, I don’t get it, and probably never will... And don't think I haven't tried to "get it", because I certainly have.
Why has “self acceptance” eluded me for so many years? Well, I guess that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? I don’t have the answer...
Counselors and psychiatrists couldn’t figure it out and give me the answer either...:straightface:

Oh yes, I’m sure my critics on this forum will have a field day with this one. I guess that’s ok, because I really hadn’t planned on submitting my application for “Miss Congeniality” this week... :laughing:

[KathrynW]

It's also called internalized transphobia.
No, it's called "lack of self acceptance".
It's not about any kind of "phobia".

[FROCKYHORROR]

I was about to start a thread on a similar vein till i saw this one,so i may as well have my say here instead.A few months ago i was in a large clothing store looking for normal guys trainers, when i noticed this man,proper neandathel looking with the whole Male pattern baldness going on, over at the ladies side of the shoe rack,he took off one of his shoes picked up a ladies one and tried it on there and then,then i heard a little voice in my head (i think it was that superego thing) say "you dirty old man,what a sad pervert",then i realised how hypocritical i was, i may as well say that about myself.

[Julie Avery]

“If you could take a magic pill and totally and permanently erase and/or eradicate from your mind all desire whatsoever to CD...would you take it?”

I can honestly say, without hesitation, that I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I would not take the pill. For me, the pleasures of crossdressing are among the finest joys I've experienced, and I don't find moral fault with myself on the issue. Do I need to activate conscience when crossdressing? Absolutely. Just like I need to do when acting like an ordinary genetic male. I think there's a crucial threshold somewhere in a CD's maturation, where self-acceptance and the need to have a conscience as a crossdresser meet, and there's a nice bit of highway right after that.

Now if the question were, "You have a newborn son and you can choose whether or not he will be a crossdresser", I'd choose not, based on the pain I've experienced getting to where I am. But me, I'm not going back.

Kathryn, I enjoyed your thought-provoking post, as you can see ;) Thanks for sharing your own thoughts on this.

[gennee]

I am a closeted crossdresser but I dress when I have the opportunity. I wear something feminine every day (usually panties) and have been more daring. I went out this past Saturday in a bra that could be seen through my white tee shirt. I will be going out in public sometime next month. I was in denial in the very early stages, but after some counseling, understood my feelings. A short time later, I came out to myself as a crossdresser. It was one of the happiest days of my life.

I am not ashamed or feel guilty about crossdressing. I wish that I could do it more often. I cherish every moment when I wear women's clothes. I am liberated and feel complete.

GENNEE

[Aynthem]

You allude to possible example of the kind of insight I mean. Your suggestion that your CDing might relate to sexual repression does make sense. Men repress not just sexual pleasure, but pleasure and feelings in general; and they overemphasize thinking. All this repressed stuff finds expression in the compensatory female alter ego.

So, with insight you might find that what you seek is to experience various feelings and emotions. The fantasy of being female is a vehicle, so to speak, for experiencing these things. But if you realize this, potentially you can experience these things without the fantasy.

You see, trying to deal with the problem by discipline is a typical, macho, male response--which actually strengthens the female alter ego.

Cathy

Cathy I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think I ever learned what "sexy" feels like for a man. When I feel sexy, it because of some feminine feeling about my body. Or at least I can only equate what I feel to a feeling of femininity. It's a problem from my upbringing. So while I understand some people's desired and happiness with thier choice, I feel like Something went wrong and I have no choice.

I don't think others are perverts for what they do. I've accepted that through my research on this subject. But I haven't found anything that can help me in my particular case.

[Sierra Evon]

I against anyone who is trying to look better than me .......LOL ;)

[DawnLabelle]

[QUOTE=Cathy Anderson

You allude to possible example of the kind of insight I mean. Your suggestion that your CDing might relate to sexual repression does make sense. Men repress not just sexual pleasure, but pleasure and feelings in general; and they overemphasize thinking. All this repressed stuff finds expression in the compensatory female alter ego.

So, with insight you might find that what you seek is to experience various feelings and emotions. The fantasy of being female is a vehicle, so to speak, for experiencing these things. But if you realize this, potentially you can experience these things without the fantasy.

You see, trying to deal with the problem by discipline is a typical, macho, male response--which actually strengthens the female alter ego.

Cathy[/QUOTE]

This is something I've wondered about many times and theorized about with myself and a few close friends. One particular example stands out in my mind. Like most typical guys who can't dance, I get nervous if I end up at a club and am the guy who stands in the corner sipping his drink, too terrified to get on the floor and probably look like an idiot. Yet one of the main things I want to do when I finally start going out as Dawn, is to go dancing!, wether or not I look like a fool. I should point out that I have gone dancing (and actually danced) once as my regular male self, alot of alcohol got rid of my inhibitions and it was one of the most fun nights I've had.

My theory is simply I (as a guy) am too afraid to be looked down upon or thought of as dumb if I try to dance (badly) at a club. Therefore that desire switches over to my femme side and "she" wants to do it and is willing to.

BTW, I think this is my first post on these boards, so HI ALL!!! :)

Dawn

[DawnLabelle]

I was about to start a thread on a similar vein till i saw this one,so i may as well have my say here instead.A few months ago i was in a large clothing store looking for normal guys trainers, when i noticed this man,proper neandathel looking with the whole Male pattern baldness going on, over at the ladies side of the shoe rack,he took off one of his shoes picked up a ladies one and tried it on there and then,then i heard a little voice in my head (i think it was that superego thing) say "you dirty old man,what a sad pervert",then i realised how hypocritical i was, i may as well say that about myself.

I can totally relate to this feeling, and unfortunately I had the same knee jerk reaction that you had. For me it was while watching the movie "Dawn of the Dead" (amazing movie by the way). There is a scene where the "survivors" are all holed up in a mall and going around doing their own thing and trying to enjoy themselves, and one character, a meek soft seemeing middle aged balding chubby man is over in the woman's shoe section trying on heels. I guess it doesn't help that the movie characterized him as "kind of wierd" (another scene he is telling a couple of captives about this young hunk of a man he encountered when he was younger).

It really shamed me to have that thought. thats about that on that subject.

Dawn

[Cathy Anderson]

One particular example stands out in my mind. Like most typical guys who can't dance
Hi Dawn, and welcome :)


I don't think I ever learned what "sexy" feels like for a man...It's a problem from my upbringing
Both of these are great examples. Aynthem, is it's not just *your* upbringing. This is a problem for all American men--it's a cultural problem!

There simply are insufficient role models--examples straight men who are sensual and well connected with their bodies.

When did you ever see Clint Eastwood dancing? We're absolutely hung up on the Eastwood/Schwarzeneggar/Willis/Stallone macho, aggressive, competitive, totally uptight archetype.

At least in the 50's there were guys like Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly--showing that straight men can have a "lyrical" side.

Cathy

[Sarah Rabbit]

My CD activities are more along the lines of a fetish. I have no alter ego, no feminine personality, and after the inevitable climax there is little left but the guilt. I do the change over well since I 've had much practice but outside of the clothes there is nothing feminine about me.

Many of you out there seem to have the personality thing down well and get along famously with the outside world. Most of the time I just hide and pretend not to know all about these things.

Call it whatever you like but one chance to eliminate this whole world I live in and go back to the cultural norms I would pay anything for this. Over the years I have come to accept others choices and would never complain about what it is you all do but for me. I've said it all now.

Hmm, I think the Red pills vs the Blue pills has been covered before.:D


Hugs, Sarah R. :bunny:

[Aynthem]

There simply are insufficient role models--examples straight men who are sensual and well connected with their bodies.

When did you ever see Clint Eastwood dancing? We're absolutely hung up on the Eastwood/Schwarzeneggar/Willis/Stallone macho, aggressive, competitive, totally uptight archetype.

At least in the 50's there were guys like Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly--showing that straight men can have a "lyrical" side.

Cathy
Cathy not that I disagree with your statement, but if it were entirely true wouldn't there be millions more men who CD? I mean somehow other guys know what feeling sexy and attractive feels like for men. Somewhere during puberty other guys got it, while I equated it with something else apparently.

I think we all agree there is a continum that people fall along. Some are TG and geniunely feel a woman inside. Some don't feel that. I don't ever feel a different female person emege when dressed, like some do. Maybe if I did I'd come to terms with this easier. It's more understandable, and I assure you I am accepting of that in others. All I'm saying is that I seem to fall well toward the "Male" end of the spectrum.

Someone put a hypothetical pill out there one to make it go away another to accept and enjoy it. I truly don't know which I'd take, either would be less of a torrment than what I am now.

[Bernice]

How can I judge another person's motives for opposing crossdressing? I might disagree, but it seems unconstructive to just dismiss them as a bigot. It might be more productive (and set a better example) to say, "my most esteemed critic labors under a misunderstanding which I should be happy to try to dispel." :)

Cathy

Dear Cathy,

As you can obviously see, diplomacy was never my strongest interpersonal skill! I apologize if how I see people (who insist crossdressing is wrong) has offended anyone. On further analysis, I never gave any thought to another person's possible motives for opposing crossdressing. Perhaps I should. Indeed, were I to confront someone with these beliefs, I would be well advised to use language such as you suggested.

Being brutally honest, if I may, I'm not sure I would be at all comfortable trying to dispel such misunderstanding. Such people that I have met tend to be very set in their ways, not open to alternative viewpoints, and most of all, they tend to want to inflict their beliefs in regulatory or punitive ways. It has been said that you can never win an argument with an idiot. While this may not apply in all instances, it may apply often enough to make me very uncomfortable confronting a known anti-crossdresser.

Looking for additional common ground with you, I recall that many people have such anti-crossdressing beliefs based on literal biblical interpretations. These objections can indeed be addressed by someone who is much more knowlegeable about the bible than me.

I guess my feelings are a result of my own personal experiences, and the anti-crossdressers I have encountered in my life were probably NOT motivated by religious beliefs, but rather by the notion that everyone in the world should either be just like them, or not at all. Now that I think about it, all of the people I have ever met who were opposed to crossdressing were fairly rabid about it as well. The subject seems to invoke very strong emotional responses.

bigot: n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Having just looked this up, I see now that my use of the word "intolerant" was redundant. Nevertheless, diplomatic considerations aside (negative connotation of bigot), I think that the term bigot applies fairly well to those individuals in our world who, for whatever reason, do not tolerate crossdressing.

"It seems unconstructive to just dismiss them as a bigot"? I suppose, yes. Do I dismiss such people as bigots? Let me think... No, I don't think I dismiss them as bigots. I think I store away in my mind that they feel the way they indicate, and I change the subject, or terminate the encounter, or whatever, in order to avoid any confrontation. I keep it bottled-up inside. I hide in the closet. This is probably unhealthy. That is why internet forums are so theraputic for me.

If people who opposed crossdressing were not so rabid, violent, or negative, would we not all come out of the closet and demand to be treated as human beings?

Cathy, I have tremendous respect for you, your intellect, and your willingness to help others. If you can confront the anti-crossdressers of this world, that is yet another big reason for me to admire you. I fear I am not smart enough to learn how to do this safely on my own.

Hugs,

Bernice

[CaptLex]

Like being pushed around by an urge (CD) that goes against/violates your own moral or ethical fabric of viewing the world and how it should be?

Why are we so quick and willing to kick ourselves, when there are so many people out there who would happily do it for us? Seriously, why are we so hard on ourselves? I tell myself, they're just clothes. These are the clothes I like, so that's what I want to wear. Maybe that's oversimplification, but it works for me. Life is too short, so I want to enjoy it with as few regrets as possible. ;)

[Yes I am]

Cathy not that I disagree with your statement, but if it were entirely true wouldn't there be millions more men who CD? I mean somehow other guys know what feeling sexy and attractive feels like for men. Somewhere during puberty other guys got it, while I equated it with something else apparently.

I think we all agree there is a continum that people fall along. Some are TG and geniunely feel a woman inside. Some don't feel that. I don't ever feel a different female person emege when dressed, like some do. Maybe if I did I'd come to terms with this easier. It's more understandable, and I assure you I am accepting of that in others. All I'm saying is that I seem to fall well toward the "Male" end of the spectrum.

Someone put a hypothetical pill out there one to make it go away another to accept and enjoy it. I truly don't know which I'd take, either would be less of a torrment than what I am now.


Maybe there isn't anything wrong with you at all. Why do you assume that the other boys "got it" somehow? Maybe they know what they like, and it's somethng conventional, or maybe some of them are merely playing the role of the standard-issue straight guy out of ignorance, and maybe some of them have secrets and hang-ups in the bedroom that they only tell their partners about. If you like to crossdress, to whatever extent, then go with that and don't try to be something you're not. Forget about the heterosexism most of us grew up with, being "straight"(vanilla, plain, kink-free) isn't some holy grail for any of us to aspire to reach. Seriously, you're not broken, when you finally get to the point where you can accept yourself and your desires, you'll be happier.

[Maria D]

I can understand this completely...
yeah...I’m sure that’s a huge shock to most of you, Right? :kickbutt:

This topic somewhat goes along with the question that I'm sure most all of us in this “community” have heard before...

“If you could take a magic pill and totally and permanently erase and/or eradicate from your mind all desire whatsoever to CD...would you take it?”

I can honestly say, without hesitation, that I'd take it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, this magic pill doesn’t exist. Yes, my opinion on this goes totally against the expression “gender gifted”. Gee...what cd bimbo came up with that cutesy saying anyway? :p
How can anything that causes so much secrecy, shame, guilt, depression, etc. be considered a GIFT?
Admittedly, I don’t get it, and probably never will... And don't think I haven't tried to "get it", because I certainly have.
Why has “self acceptance” eluded me for so many years? Well, I guess that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? I don’t have the answer...
Counselors and psychiatrists couldn’t figure it out and give me the answer either...:straightface:

Oh yes, I’m sure my critics on this forum will have a field day with this one. I guess that’s ok, because I really hadn’t planned on submitting my application for “Miss Congeniality” this week... :laughing:


Field day? Nah, I totally understand those feelings. I kept it hidden, felt guilty when I couldn't stop myself doing it, prayed to God to make me a woman, prayed to God to make me strong enough to stop, wanted to die, tried to die, sadly for you lot didn't, and finally, at a very low point of letting my life go down the drain (no job, no benefit, no money, didn't care) I met my future fiancee online and things changed. I told her about me and she didn't mind. That was what saved me, the fact that someone else loved me for who I really was, and she showed me that it wasn't as wrong as I thought and that the world wouldn't hate me like I did. Bloody lucky for me, I could never accept it before that. I never joined a forum or anything, I just wanted peace; the ability to stop, or the ability to be me, neither of which seemed available at the time.
I never will think of it as a gift, rather an illness that needed curing, like a kidney stone in my head. Er... a headstone? No, that's already taken, damn. Anyway, you get my point. I kinds figure I'm on the way to being cured now, that is to say the pain's gone and I'm happy with who I am. All I ever wanted really, just what the muggles already have.
Ho hum.

Why can't you accept? Who knows. Gutted for you I think, because I assume it causes you a certain amount of conflict (shame, guilt, depression, etc), which is sad. I hope one day, however you manage it, you find peace.

The Cap, interesting comment on the clothes. If you dressed in men's clothes every day but were seen unambiguously as a woman, would that be a comfortable situation for you? Some people seem to desire an opposite gender persona whereas others are happy with the clothes rather than the gender role (and perhaps body).

Take care :)

[Cathy Anderson]

Hi Bernice,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. No, you didn't offend anyone. And thank you for educating me concerning the exact definition of "bigot." You're right, the actual definition isn't that bad.

I guess what I'm trying to reinforce is the idea that you and most of the other people here are ahead of the curve, so to speak. We, more so than other men, are in touch with our feminine side. Further, because we have had to deal with this strange gender issue, one might also suggest we are a little more "conscious" than most people. I don't think it's a coincidence that in many societies, the transgendered are the priests and shamans.

So perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part, but I like to think we can use our "gift" to help raise the consciousness of society--which is so desperately needed now.

I think this is something we all struggle with. To "love your enemies"--what an outrageous proposition! But if one wants badly enough for peace, justice and love to prevail in the world, one is eventually driven to the practical discovery that there is only one way to reach hostile and narrow-minded people--to set a good example. A good example is incredibly powerful. And it has an effect even without people realizing it. You might not win the argument of words, but if one shows genuine respect for an opponent, they will walk away from the encounter internalizing the example.

So please understand that I didn't wish to sound critical of you. In fact, I very nearly deleted that paragraph from my post. Its really that I'm very interested in this as a general principle.

Concerning fundamentalists, I don't know what the answer is. But I suspect they pay a very heavy price for their narrow-mindedness. Perhaps if one understood how much that is so, one could view them with a degree of genuine compassion.

Cheers,

Cathy

[KathrynW]

;)
If you can confront the anti-crossdressers of this world, that is yet another big reason for me to admire you. I fear I am not smart enough to learn how to do this safely on my own.
Bernice: Somehow I think you missed the point of this thread. It's about CD's who have difficult dealing with their own CD-ing. It sounds like you're talking about CD bashers or anti-CD people.

Why are we so quick and willing to kick ourselves, when there are so many people out there who would happily do it for us? Seriously, why are we so hard on ourselves? I tell myself, they're just clothes. These are the clothes I like, so that's what I want to wear. Maybe that's oversimplification, but it works for me. Life is too short, so I want to enjoy it with as few regrets as possible.
Lex: IMHO, Yes...you have over-simplified this issue quite a bit. There's a lot more to it, for many of us...it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

So perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part, but I like to think we can use our "gift" to help raise the consciousness of society--which is so desperately needed now

Oh Lord have mercy...there's that word "gift" again...
I know it won't be popular...but I gotta be honest, I definitely see it as more of a curse than a gift.
And the whole idea of CD-ing being used as some grandiose plan to change society’s perception? puleeeeaseee....
Wishful thinking indeed...rose colored glasses...

I know people are going to simply write me off as being "negative". Trust me, there's more to it...

[CaptLex]

The Cap, interesting comment on the clothes. If you dressed in men's clothes every day but were seen unambiguously as a woman, would that be a comfortable situation for you? Some people seem to desire an opposite gender persona whereas others are happy with the clothes rather than the gender role (and perhaps body).

Hey, Maria:

That was just me trying to boil it down to simpler terms. Actually, you're right, once upon a time I was happy just to wear the clothes, but now I know that I seek something deeper. But whether we are happy just to dress or want to bring out the hidden gender, I don't think we should beat ourselves up about it. :rolleyes:


Lex: IMHO, Yes...you have over-simplified this issue quite a bit. There's a lot more to it, for many of us...it's not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

Kathryn:

I apologize if it seems that I'm minimizing anyone's situation. Believe me, that was not the intent. I was just trying to say that if crossdressing makes us happy, whatever the reason, then we shouldn't let it cause us internal conflict, since there's enough external conflict about it already. Peace.:Peace:

[kwebb]

I am kind of glad this post struck a nerve so-to-say. I am digging deep for answers. The thing about it is, answers come from within you and not without you.

No one else has your answers but you. But differing views are interesting.

I am finding that unconditional love is the only way to peace for me with this issue. When I was 10-12 yrs. old and just starting to really get into CDing it was really no big deal. This was before I knew anything about this label or that label, and what the world really thought of it. I was just me. No peer pressure, outside influence on my CDing or being swayed by this or that viewpoint.

I say unconditional love because I've been carrying around alot of hate. Hate at the world and the people in it/scheme of things and society for not accepting this. When in reality, they don't have to accept it.

I'm too easily offended by anything negative someone has to say about it. I've been thinking the world owes me acceptance when it really dosen't . I've been thinking its not fair when nothing in this world is fair to anyone mostly.

I must change my mind and give people the same acceptance I want them to give me. I can't display love towards people only if they think like I do. That is just as bad as, or worse, than them hating CD. The only way is to respect their opinions and right not to like CD. I had gotten so caught up in a cycle of hate I found myself cursing certain people out under my breath because I knew the way they would view someting like this. They were controlling me.

And then hypocritically telling them to judge not. Is that not the very thing I am engaging in with them, judging them for their views. None of us has all the answers or is right 100% of the time. No one.

I still think the majority of people in the society have extreme dislike for anyone gay or TG. I am no longer going to fight hate with more hate though.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Hey, a LOT of the "CD BUZZ" arizes out of this CONFLICT--at least for me. Its "Crossing the line", "Violating the biggest taboo"---etc..

Yes, I am in the closet---went out only once a couple of Halloweens ago---but I am an "escapist" type though---my "real self" IS male---and I CD to escape away from it from time to time , by becomming a woman.

The whole dynamic of the CONFLICT may be entirely different for those who see their FEM side as their "true self"----Alas, I can only speculate. . .

[KathrynW]

I am kind of glad this post struck a nerve so-to-say. I am digging deep for answers. The thing about it is, answers come from within you and not without you.
No one else has your answers but you. But differing views are interesting.

kwebb: You nailed it.
We can compare notes all we want, but it won't resolve our individual issues regarding this. It's up to each of us to deal with our own demons in our own way.
Bottom line...if you can figure a way to accomplish this...
you've won. ;)

[Jesse69]

I crossdress but I believe that I shouldn't do what I do. But I can't help it. I think I purged 3 times but now I will never purge my latest collection of great clothes.

My only cure would be to get a well paid job and have a good looking wife. Maybe that might cure me? But I like the femme feeling of wearing a great skirt suit.

[Karren H]

Nope, not in that manner. Did tussel with the idea of being a pervert or being gay. Both of which I have resolved in my mind.

Love Karren

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Oh yes, I’m sure my critics on this forum will have a field day with this one.


Field day? No.

But I do now have a better understanding of what's driving the anger and bitterness I think you often express here. And I feel sorrow that you're having such a difficult time reaching self-acceptance.

OTOH, I think we can agree on our dislike of the term "gendered gifted" -- to swipe a line from my acquaintance Andrea, if this is a gift, I'm sure many of us would like the receipt so we could exchange for something else. Helen Boyd had some good thoughts (http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/?p=624) on this. Like her, I can understand why some people need to think of it that way -- but usually they're really saying that positive things have come out of the adversity they faced and the journey of self-discovery they've had to go on. But I'm sure if people could gain those things without all the hassles they've been though they probably would.

[Karren H]

Field day? No.

But I do now have a better understanding of what's driving the anger and bitterness I think you often express here. And I feel sorrow that you're having such a difficult time reaching self-acceptance.

OTOH, I think we can agree on our dislike of the term "gendered gifted" -- to swipe a line from my acquaintance Andrea, if this is a gift, I'm sure many of us would like the receipt so we could exchange for something else. Helen Boyd had some good thoughts (http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/?p=624) on this. Like her, I can understand why some people need to think of it that way -- but usually they're really saying that positive things have come out of the adversity they faced and the journey of self-discovery they've had to go on. But I'm sure if people could gain those things without all the hassles they've been though they probably would.

You are such a good writer, Marlena!!! How's the the knee doing?? PM me some time when your not busy.

Love Karren

[Aynthem]

I think we can agree on our dislike of the term "gendered gifted" -- to swipe a line from my acquaintance Andrea, if this is a gift, I'm sure many of us would like the receipt so we could exchange for something else.

LOL Exactly. That's is the funniest ay to put my point.

Some are comfortable with thier crossdressing. Some, like me, are still hung up after all the research I've done.

I's simply rather let this cup pass., to use a religious metaphor.

I told my wife about my dressing whe we were still engaged. I thought that I would stop once I was in a commited healthy sexual relationship. But I've discovered to my dismay, that I can't seem to have a healthy sexual relationship. When I was in college I banged every girl I could, and regreted it. I dressed in women's clothes and regreted it. Somewhere along the line I made sex something to regret later, and now I wnat to heal that so I can have what I think my wife and I deserve. I see CDing like all the other deviant things I did when I was exploring my sexuality. But I just can't seem to let go of it the way I let go of the womanizing.

[Cathy Anderson]

Cathy not that I disagree with your statement, but if it were entirely true wouldn't there be millions more men who CD? I mean somehow other guys know what feeling sexy and attractive feels like for men. Somewhere during puberty other guys got it, while I equated it with something else apparently.
Aynthem - Sure, there are macho types, and Casanovas. But I don't see that many examples of role models who have a really emulable relationship with women. But that's just my subjective and doubtless biased experience.

Also, I think one reason why you don't see more CDs is that a lot of men handle this or similar conflicts by alcoholism, workaholism, etc.

Here's a question, then. Looking to famous figures of today--are there any that come to mind for you as examples of what you mean by "guys who know what attractive feels like for men?" Just to give me an idea of how you see it.


Oh Lord have mercy...there's that word "gift" again...And the whole idea of CD-ing being used as some grandiose plan to change society’s perception? puleeeeaseee
Kathryn - if you've seen any of my other posts you might see that I tend to take a pretty hard-nosed view towards the whole thing. I'm not suggesting that CDing is beneficial for society. Almost the opposite: that many CDs have a psychological difference which is being misdirected into crossdressing.

For example, in traditional societies, such men might become shamans, priests, artists etc. The potential "gift" is not crossdressing. It's the fact that our male hormones or whatever are not so strong that we are turned into testosterone-driven gorillas. Our unique conflict forces us to think more, or at least differently about things most people don't question.


I say unconditional love because I've been carrying around alot of hate. Hate at the world and the people in it/scheme of things and society for not accepting this.
I often wonder if this is a major factor for some CDs. It would fit with a "compensatory" view of crossdressing. One premise of Jungian psychology is that the psyche balances itself. If one experiences a lot of anger and hate, somehow the mind needs to balance this. I even think you see traces of this in the bad-boy-to-good-girl theme in TG fiction

Just my .02

Cathy

[Helen MC]

This concept, like "Purging" one's female clothing, (something I never have nor will ever do), is so alien to me as to be laughable. Since my early teens I have crossdressed and have enjoyed it and been at one with myself. I do NOT feel any guilt, why should I? My response to those who disapprove is "Go F*** yourself!"

Now I do only CD in private, this is forced by the power of societal mores. I certainly have no problem with those brave men who DO wear female clothing in public, whether they are TVs who can "pass" very convincingly when outdoors or obvious men who like to wear a skirt, sarong, etc instead of trousers. Any time I have seen such a man wearing a skirt, (Not a kilt although that is as far as some men can realistically get to wearing a skirt in public) I have admired him and wished I had the guts to do the same. Unfortunately there have been too many examples of TVs being beaten up by thugs in the UK, no doubt as part of the homophobic sub-culture although this pond life is too stupid to realise that most TVs and CDs are Heterosexual. Back in the mid 1970s I experienced the vicious attitides of some men towards CDs when I was accidentally discovered wearing panties at the place then worked and this has made me very careful.

So I simply cannot equate to what is being asked and feel that all this "denial" jargon is psychobabble and should simply be ignored. As I said on another thread we Brits have a healthy scepticism about Psychiatrists whom we consider as no better than used car salesmen not in the same league as proper Medical Doctors, and whom we would be unlikely to consult as a routine as we would a Doctor or Dentist.

[KathrynW]

Field day? No.
But I do now have a better understanding of what's driving the anger and bitterness I think you often express here. And I feel sorrow that you're having such a difficult time reaching self-acceptance.
Marlena: I don't think I've ever really kept it a secret here that I'm the proverbial reluctant CD. And don't feel sorry for me, because I certainly don't think I deserve it. ;)

OTOH, I think we can agree on our dislike of the term "gendered gifted" -- to swipe a line from my acquaintance Andrea, if this is a gift, I'm sure many of us would like the receipt so we could exchange for something else
Yes...something like a line from a Clint Eastwood movie....
"Don't piss down my boot...and tell me it's raining..." ;)



Like her, I can understand why some people need to think of it that way
Interesting...
I'm not real sure how someone else can understand this, when I haven't figured it out after quite a few years....oh well...

[Aynthem]

Cathy,
You make a good point. I don't think I can at this time. I'd have to think about it. But without a frame of referance I think this will be hard. Additionally while women show outwardly in thier dress and thier movements that they feel sexy, men do not. or the most part if a guy is feeling good about himself before a date or something He'll look in the mirror and say "Damn" or something similarly meaningless. Women express it. They want clothes that make them feel sexy, and in those clothes they act differently.
So can Isite and example of a man who knows he feels sexy, I have to think on it.

[Cathy Anderson]

Aynthem,

Actually, your last post answers the question I had pretty well and better than a specific exampe. I think you're right about men not dressing to feel sexy.

There's just a basic difference between men and women in how they relate to their bodies, and especially with regard to things sensual. It's something I've been thinking about.

Cheers,

Cathy

[TracyDeluxe]

A few months ago i was in a large clothing store looking for normal guys trainers, when i noticed this man,proper neandathel looking with the whole Male pattern baldness going on, over at the ladies side of the shoe rack,he took off one of his shoes picked up a ladies one and tried it on there and then,then i heard a little voice in my head (i think it was that superego thing) say "you dirty old man,what a sad pervert",then i realised how hypocritical i was, i may as well say that about myself.

Sadly, I have the same thoughts at times, I agree with you, it is so hypocritical. THAT's what "society" has done to us, all of us. And a lot of that is internalized as well. :(

[Maria D]

So I simply cannot equate to what is being asked and feel that all this "denial" jargon is psychobabble and should simply be ignored. As I said on another thread we Brits have a healthy scepticism about Psychiatrists whom we consider as no better than used car salesmen not in the same league as proper Medical Doctors, and whom we would be unlikely to consult as a routine as we would a Doctor or Dentist.

I can understand that you don't 'get' this, since you don't feel it yourself. That makes sense, but you can't then dismiss it because of that.
The denial probably stems from society saying something is wrong when you want to do it anyway. In your case, you just thought 's*d them' and did it anyway secretly. Many (most?) TGs do it anyway because they can't stop, but still believe what they were taught; that it is wrong to do. That causes guilt, just like doing anything perceived as wrong would. That's not babble, just sense. Ever caught someone stealing? That guilt is the same. Of course, for most stealing is a chioce, being TG isn't, but that won't lessen the guilt.
Until something changes inside someone to make them decide it's not wrong, the situation will perpetuate. You can ignore the dictate of 'wrongness', but the guilt will be felt regardless. You can't ignore that.

Just my opinion of course :)

Take care :)

[Bernice]

;)
Bernice: Somehow I think you missed the point of this thread. It's about CD's who have difficult dealing with their own CD-ing. It sounds like you're talking about CD bashers or anti-CD people.


KathrynW: Unfortunately, I cannot post often enough to stay on top of all the wonderful topics, so you may have missed my first post. I hope that if you re-read my first post (#13 in this thread) I think you will see that I did NOT miss the point of the thread. Then again, if you feel the topic is the personal conflict, and not the moral/ethical views that make people opposed to CDing, I could see why you said what you said. I feel the “problem: is not the personal conflict, but rather the anti-CD moral views which in turn cause the conflict for some “involuntary” CDrs. Perhaps Cathy Anderson and I were hijacking the thread somewhat, straying from the original topic to a more general discussion of people who are anti-CD, and if this bothered anyone, I apologize.

Cathy Anderson: Thanks again for making me feel better! If there were a "third pill" neither red nor blue, which would provide the courage to publicly demand acceptance, I would take that pill in a heartbeat!

Back on topic: Aside from what I've already said (which is probably too much), other than the hypocritical aspect, how is it really any different for a CDr to be anti-CD than for a non-CDr to feel the same way?

Hugs,

Bernice

[Aynthem]

Aynthem,

There's just a basic difference between men and women in how they relate to their bodies, and especially with regard to things sensual. It's something I've been thinking about.

Cheers,

Cathy

I'm so glad I'm not the only one.

Like I said If I could be comfortable giving up CDing I would. If I could be comfortable ambracing CDing I would. This middle ground is torture. Before I embrace CDing permenantly, I'd like to know how to accept my sexuality as male. Only then can I choose my path.

[Cathy Anderson]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one [who thinks about how men and women relate to sensuality and their bodies differently]
Hi Aynthem,

I decided to reply to your comment in a new thread about how Wilhelm Reich's theories might relate to CDing.

Cathy

[Helen MC]

Guilt is only a problem if you buy into it. As an example I drink Alcohol and eat Pork. Both of these could arouse guilt in an Islamic where they to do so. I am not an Islamic so have no problem, and likewise I have no problem wearing women's clothing as I reject the conventions both societal and religious which state that I should not for example wear women's panties instead of male underpants or that I should not wear a skirt instead of trousers. I chose not to dress outdoors for fear of meeting hostile reaction, even being beaten up as although my part of the UK - London and the Home Counties -are not too bad, there have been incidents of TVs being assaulted and a Homosexual was kicked to death in London by some teenagers last year. Also I would not "pass" and I know that a convincing TV is less likely to meet with hostility than a "man in drag" who looks like "Old Mother Reilly" or Les Dawson playing a "Mother in Law".

I have never felt "guilt" for crossdressing, fear of being discovered yes , when I was at home I know I would have suffered greatly, especially at the hands of my father, but no "guilt". As for "purging" my female clothing? Don't be daft! That would be like cutting off a finger or the likes as far as I am concerned and I have never done so nor would I. I have only thrown away female clothing when it is worn out or too small and even then I have usually put it in a bag and left it at a Charity Shop for others to buy and enjoy. perhaps other CDs and TVs.

[kwebb]

There are times when I crossdress and wind up feeling sooo in control, confident and empowered by it. Then there are times when I hear negative things about it and wind up feeling like we are all a sad lot of sick, pitiful people. I wish I could shake that feeling.

When I was a boy I did not feel that way. Everything about it felt right all of the time. Even when I would occasionaly hear oppositition to it.

[Rikkicn]

No, it's called "lack of self acceptance".
It's not about any kind of "phobia".
I'm just repeating what's in the studies and literature. It refers to the feeling that we get from seeing ourselves as society sees us. We begin to believe they are right therfore, we shouldn't accept ourselves either.

[Keri]

My only cure would be to get a well paid job and have a good looking wife. Maybe that might cure me?

No, that won't! I have both and that hasn't changed a thing. Oh, I did quit for the first year or two, but that hunger/thirst[?] keeps a-growing and must be eventually sated.

My only other 2 cents on this topic is to agree with the many who state that the desire for femininity is, many times, a need to be able to express emotion that "real men" (or boys, as adolescense is where all our self-image is formed) cannot or, rather, must not. Sad but true.