60 Minutes Ah Ha!

[Sophia Rearen]

Twin Boys one is TG
Here is the link: http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?channel=60Sunday

[jo_ann]

won't load in firefox, must use netscape or IE. Btw, here's the working link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/videoplayer/newVid/small_player/vplayer2.shtml?clip=/media/2006/03/10/video1389179.rm&sec=&vidId=&title=Twins$@$Stir$@$Sexuality$@$Debate&hitboxMLC=

[HaleyPink2000]

That tells a lot about s subject I have not explored. Since I'm not Gay I have not thought of the why a person is or is not Gay. But it's an interesting story of the two children.

Thanks!

[Billijo49504]

The really strange one was, the more older brothers that are right handed, the more chance to be gay. That was very interesting, I watched it twice and still don't know if I believe what I saw.

[TGMarla]

I'm a twin, although not an identical one. I don't think my brother crossdresses. But we were definitely brought up in identical circumstances. We have a lot in common with each other. This just isn't one of those things.

[Petrina CD]

So many crossdressers are not gay, why would this kid wanting to be a girl have anything to do with being gay?? The show was about what makes people gay, looking for a common link. I think they missed a little with this young TV boy as he could turn out like so many of us who want to dress-up as girls ,live as gurls and have sex with real girls thus not being gay but transgenderd.

I was wondering while watching the show if this boy had any girl-clothes in his closet. His parents seemed to give him everything else that a gurl could want ,he must have some dresses. And why was his hair so short?

Just a coincidence , I am the youngest of three brothers, all straight.

Petrina cd

[Cathy Anderson]

For the browser or modem challenged, here's a link to a non-video version:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml

Reading this reminds me yet again that the scientific and theoretical level of such research is appalling.

The bottom line:

1. Sexual and gender orientation are partly genetic, and partly non-genetic (duh!)
2. The genetic contributions to these might be *very* indirect.

Note that Adam and Jared are *fraternal* twins, not identical twins--so that this isn't a very interesting example. Fraternal twins are not more similar genetically than ordinary brothers. The real test is whether *identical* twins have a common orientation. And the best evidence comes from studies where identical twins are separated at birth and adopted to different homes.

Again, any genetic component of TG behavior might be very indirect. To take a simple example, suppose a child is very small, and delicate featured. Because they have a better chance of passing, then there is a greater probability that this person will find social reinforcement for crossdressing. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out. But in this case the genetic contribution has nothing to do with the person's basic feelings. The genes here merely affect the social expression.

Left-handed people are generally believed, on average, to be more creative.
Lefties are also more ambidextrous than righties--meaning potentially that they have better integration between the halves of the brain. So they might be able to find alternative creative outlets for any TG or "gay" tendencies--artists, shamans, etc.

Cathy

[SherriePall]

Sophia
I, too, was thinking that the young person in the story was TG and not necessarily gay. Did they miss that or were they looking for something else.

[Sophia Rearen]

I'm thinking too much info in too short of a segment. They did seem to suggest there was a gender disorder. They had a leading Dr. in gender talking about the twins. His point, it's something going on in the womb, not nurturing that causes gender disorder.
I'm not sure why they made the jump to being gay. My assumption is since he wants to be a girl, his best route will be gay. Instead of working with his disorder and guiding him through hormone replacement around puberty and later SRS around 18 years old.

To me, it helps reinforce the hormone bath we get when in the womb. Mess with that chemical mix and you get different levels of masculinity and femininity. Most of us CD/TG came to recognize ourselves around puberty, just as our own hormones began to rage.

[Yes I am]

My brother is gay and when we were growing up he was very effiminate and would always want to be the girl in any games we ever played. Not all transgendered people are gay, and not all kids with gender issues are transgendered. I guess what I'm saying is that if my brother was like but he isn't a crossdresser now that he's an adult, and I wasn't effiminate as a child(mostly b/c I was convinced that I must hide my "shameful" desires at any cost), being homosexual is basically a third gender, if you know many homosexuals, of course not all of them, but there are many who are very effiminate people. I think this bleeds into why most people associate crossdressing with homosexuality and assume that most crossdressing guys either are gay or want to be women. And I think there is quite a bit of evidence even on here, people reporting feeling "bi" when they dress up, it seems to me that the link between gender identity and sexuality is a lot stronger than most of us are willing to cop to.

[EllenCD]

I watched that show in tears for the sweet boy that so wants to be a girl. It was like watching a rerun of my own childhood. Since the parents now know and understand the childs "orientation" I pray they initiate HRT and prepare the child for SRS at the earliest possible time.

[Yes I am]

I watched that show in tears for the sweet boy that so wants to be a girl. It was like watching a rerun of my own childhood. Since the parents now know and understand the childs "orientation" I pray they initiate HRT and prepare the child for SRS at the earliest possible time.


The kid doesn't need a sex change, he's still too young to determine if that would be what's best for him. In all likelyhood he is a homosexual. Why must an individual's sex organs match up with their gender anyways? Seems pretty barbaric to me.

[EllenCD]

I didn't say the child should "have a sex change" I said "the parents should PREPARE the child for SRS". Prepare,to make ready, usually for a specific purpose; make suitable; adapt;train. SRS would be an adult decision for the individual person, however, the transition could and would be much easier if the child was "Prepaired" from an early age. btw how do you determine if one is a homosexual simply by looking at them on TV?

[Yes I am]

How do you determine that they need to be prepared for SRS? The thrust of the program was about the nature-v-nurture science surrounding homosexuality. You're arguing that the little boy literally would want to become a girl, maybe he would, but I know first-hand that some homosexual boys also are very effeminate in their youth and have female role models and often assume the female roles in games and can be quite the little gender-benders. The article states that: "Research shows that most children with extreme tendencies toward gender nonconformity grow up to be gay." I am just opposed to the line of thinking that leads one to believe that if you don't "act like a boy" you need to change your genitalia, or seriously consider it. That is only one of many possibilities, and not the most likely one by far.

[DonnaT]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml


Adam's behavior is an example of childhood gender nonconformity, say scientists. Research shows that most children with extreme tendencies toward gender nonconformity grow up to be gay.

Do they have this "research" available?

How do they get to the term "most"?

Don't a number of children with extreme tendencies toward gender nonconformity grow up to be transgendered, not necessarily gay? Heck, some even turn out straight, no TG tendencies nor gay tendencies.

Note that the story never once mentioned gender "identity", even though Adam says he'd rather be a girl. Instead they tie his wanting to be a girl to being gay, even though they don't come right out and say he is gay. After all, the boys are probably too young to even know what their sexual orientation will be. For all we know, Adam could end up a straight TG, and Jared could end up a macho homosexual.

Some piss poor reporting, to be sure.

Michael Bailey may have a PhD. but his "research" is questionable. Much of his statements are basically theory, and one problem is, many take them to be fact.

http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/?p=345

http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/?p=63

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/Bailey%20Responses/How%20Bailey%20Responds.html

http://ceramicsisthebomb.blogspot.com/2006/03/oh-so-pissed.html

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i41/41a00801.htm

[Yes I am]

Well, I think it's pretty clear that a nonconformist gender identity isn't something that occurs only in the lifestyles of crossdressing/transwhatever people.

[Bernice]

I appreciate the opportunity to see the short segment. I understand why people naturally want to diagnose the young person's condition. I also think that none of us, even if otherwise qualified, can do so accurately based only on a 150 second video that has been heavily edited. Even so, I am somewhat annoyed that they leap to a "gay" conclusion so quickly. I'm even a little annoyed that it is considered "a condition" - with the implication that diagnosis and treatment may be required.

I also hope that the young person's parents will not seek to impose a solution on their child, but rather allow the child to self-determine what is best. Of course, the child might benefit from supportive counseling at some point.

Had I had parents who allowed me to choose my own toys and decorations, I suspect I would have chosen a different path. I would have wanted to decide for myself.

Hugs,

Bernice

[DonnaT]

Producer Shari Finkelstein's response to the issue of how the story was perceived regarding sexual orientation and gender identity:

"We thought we were very careful not to label his sexuality in any way, because he's nine years old," says Finkelstein. "He doesn't have a sexual orientation. But we did report what is accurate, which is there have been longitudinal studies that have followed boys like him, and the best study in that field said the vast majority of those boys grew up to be gay men." She added it was possible that because being transgender is more accepted today than it used to be, a study that began today might show that more children with gender non-conformity would turn out to be transgender.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/03/13/publiceye/entry1397301.shtml

Maybe they'll revisit the question on air?

[Yes I am]

Maybe Dan Rather could come back and do a special investigation on it.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Michael Bailey may have a PhD. but his "research" is questionable. Much of his statements are basically theory, and one problem is, many take them to be fact.

I'm not sure I'd even dignify calling his statements theory. Opinions with "data" cobbled together to conform to his ideas is more like it.

[Cathy Anderson]

I'm not sure I'd even dignify calling his statements theory. Opinions with "data" cobbled together to conform to his ideas is more like it.
Marlena, I think you are exactly correct.

[ReginaK]

That was a pretty bad story, regardless of it's length. But I don't expect much from CBS. Especially now that everyone wants to get in on the gay/trans ratings bandwagon.

[Snookums]

I very seldom watch 60 Minutes,I detest liberal bias,and thats how I saw the 60 Minutes piece on this little boy.Prefering to wear womens clothes does not make one gay,I was wondering why the boy wasn't dressed like a girl.I think the term gender identity crisis means the scientists who decide this are sipping their beekers too much,or inhaling methane.

[Kitty Sue]

This is so interesting. My mother and an aunt are teachers. They both maintain that they can tell in first graders who are going to be straight or gay. This really reinforces that I think.

It seems that some people here see this as some kind of threat? I certainly believe that TG and gay people are heavily influenced by genes or hormones. I do not believe I would have chosen to be a TV out of choice. It is part of who I am and what make me unique so self acceptance is vital in my life.

Great link. Thanks, KS.

[Cathy Anderson]

My mother and an aunt are teachers. They both maintain that they can tell in first graders who are going to be straight or gay.
Thanks, Kitty. I kind of both agree and disagree.

With at least some boys, you can tell *something* is going on with them, but it isn't quite clear what. To peg them as "gay" it seems like one is applying your ones stereotypes and prejudices.

I'd say more often the boys are confused, and could turn out several different ways if someone took the time to relate to them.

Cathy