When is the proper time to tell young kids

[Ariana225]

My daughter will be 4 in a few months. I was just wondering when some of you told your kids and they were able to comprehend that it is a family secret? At what age or signs of maturity do they show that they can handle such a thing? I’d like to be more out but stay in the closet due to the wife’s wishes.

Edit: I would never tell her without the wives blessing

[Stephanie47]

My kids are 42 and 37. I never told them about my cross dressing. My cross dressing is private. I have never worn female clothing in front of them and never will. That aside it is not a good idea to coach your child to "keep a secret." That is the classic way a pervert in the family grooms a young child....."Keep a secret." Although your reason for "keeping a secret" may be rooted in continuing to hide your cross dressing for unfounded or founded fear affecting you and your family, someone else's secret may be to injure your child. Young children just blurt out whatever is on their minds. There is always that risk. Further, IMHO, if you're trying to draw them into keeping "your" secret, aren't you in some way conveying the thought cross dressing is not OK? I don't know the answer to that.

[Pat]

When is the right time to tell is necessarily different from when can they be burdened with "a family secret" that they mustn't disclose.

I'd argue that the former is around the age your child is now -- they are aware of gender roles at this point and they'd be best able to handle the idea that there are other gender roles that they have been unaware of up to now. As for "family secrets" I'd say they're never the right age for that. Perhaps you could tell your child about transgender people without disclosing that you are one? That would at least set the groundwork to eventually come out when you're ready.

[Beverley Sims]

I never told my children, and did not find it necessary to do so.

They and their families live in other states.

Unlike Pat I would hold off until they reach a responsible age or their schooling and outlook appears to have an outlook on gender issues of today.

If they actively talk about gender issues at age four maybe you share something with them now or at least educate them with your views.

Mmmm! Reading Pat's post again I feel that I am repeating what she said.

[Robertacd]

I don't believe in makeing children keep "family secrets". It's not fair to them, and robs them of their innocence. If you are not out to the world, then you shouldn't be out to your children until they are old enough to understand why you want them to keep it a secret.

I know this is going to sound mean but what's the difference between telling your children not to talk about how daddy dresses, and telling them not to talk about how daddy hits mommy?

We raised our son to be open minded and excepting, and he didn't know about my activities until he was in middle school.

[Andrea Chenowith]

Now that my 7-year-old daughter is old enough to have a memory of things, I have no plans to tell her until at least high school. She may, in the deep recesses of her memory, know, but I am not going to spark the recollection.

As to how she may know -- For various reasons, I was a stay-at-home dad for several periods during my daughter's early years of life. Well before she could truly comprehend the difference (or at least so I thought) in gender roles, much less appearances, I wore a t-shirt over a bra and my forms frequently, occasionally shedding the t-shirt while she napped. One day she woke up early in a start and I didn't have time to throw on a t-shirt. After getting her settled, she commented "Daddy has boobs like mommy!" I didn't make a big deal of it; I just told her that I had to go take them off real quick..

Flash forward to a couple weeks later, when I was picking her up from daycare. I had my forms, along with a couple of dresses, sitting in an open bag on the floor of the back seat of my car. She made a comment "Oh, daddy, there's your boobs!"

Yep, I made sure to not have anything out around her EVER again.

(But in a supremely ironic twist, she is the reason that I wear painted toes 24/7.)

[docrobbysherry]

As a closet dresser, I completely agree with Pat! I tell people on a "need to know" basis. No one in my family knew I dressed until my adult daughter moved back in with me and almost caught me a number of times!:doh:

I had to tell her, her sister, and my ex! Because they r all close. But, they've all asked me one time or another if they could tell so and so? So, I KNOW keeping a secret like that is a burden.
Why would u want to burden anyone close to u?:thumbsdn:

[Janie Jane]

It's not 22. Trust me.

[Teresa]

Roberta,
The simple answer is there isn't a right time.

To me kids need and depend on you as parents , they should not have the burden of your adult problems , no matter how mature you think they are they are still kids with problems of their own, it's not fair to assume they have the capacity to take it all on board.

My kids are grown up with their own children , they dealt with my CDing in an adult way , I feel it was the right way , it's an adult problem that can only be handled in that way .

Kids could suffer a great deal from being told about your dressing , it's not fair to expect them to keep it a secret, you can't blame them if they let that secret slip besides kids have enough to deal with themselves as they grow up, they expect that support from us and not to have to support you .

[Micki_Finn]

This is an extremely complex and confusing issue. I don’t have kids myself, but in general, I’d say that once they’re old enough for “the talk”, they’re old enough to deal with the issues that crossdressing brings up. As for when they’re old enough to keep your secret... HAHAHAHAHA... if you think a moody angsty teenager won’t use your secret to get whatever they want out of you, you obviously don’t remember being a teenager.

[Tracii G]

I agree with Micki to some degree.
If you say " my kid would never tell my secret" I have to laugh because yes they would.
I would say do not burden your young children with a family secret, its not fair to them because it only alienates them to some degree.
I know some CDs have this dying urge to tell someone about their "hobby" but my question is why what is the benefit?

[Robbin_Sinclair]

I can’t imagine 4 or anytime before pretty old would I need to tell on myself.
If the desire is so bad, just come out to the world.
If not, you can keep this thing a secret a pretty long time.
The advice about how this can look if the kids talk about daddy’s secret is very good.
I would find a separate place with a lock and a place for all my girlie clothes.
My blue suitcase is mine alone.

[Ariana225]

Thanks for all the responses, I know at 4 it is too young. I was just fishing for the age even if it’s adulthood that other members told their kids at. It was just on my mind, because I am going to raise her up knowing the transgendered community and to be accepting of every kind of person out there. Maybe one day it will just feel right. Or maybe one day my wife will say screw it and not worry about keeping it a big secret.

Another question, has anyone’s kids that find out later in life, or you tell them later in life, get really upset at you for hiding the secret from them? I can see how expecting honesty from your kids also means honest from about who you are as a person. Idk, just throwing that out there

[char GG]

My opinion is to never tell young kids.

We had a female to male neighbor. The reason we knew that was because his 5 year old twins told the neighbors that their daddy used to be their mommy but “they weren’t supposed to tell”. So much for that secret!

[Teresa]

Roberta,
No my kids weren't openly upset, my daughter is very accepting and doesn't have a problem , my son is finding it harder for several reasons, maybe he feels he's lost Dad , but his wife is very black and white and has made it clear she wouldn't live with it. I guess that has raised some issues between them possibly not all related to my CDing .

It's early days to say how much our separation is affecting them , they all know it's happened because of my CDing needs and the fact my wife can't live with it ,at the moment it's going OK . My wife was more concerned about my son finding out as compared with my daughter , my wife and daughter have had heated words over my wife's treatment with me over the issue . I advised my daughter to back off and not be caught in the middle of the situation , I didn't want her to start taking sides , it was for my wife and I to sort the problem out but still be there for them , that is how it has worked out for the present .

Char,
That's precisely my point, it is an adult problem , children shouldn't be expected to take it in and deal with it , they have enough to deal with themselves as the grow up .

[Maria_mtf]

Hi Roberta, I have a boy who's a toddler and I am expecting another boy soon so well timed thread for me. My wife doesnt want to ever tell them, which I think I agree with. I plan to explain the transgendered community as they grow so they understand and judge noone.

Problem is its a contridiction to say there's nothing wrong men wanting to crossdress etc but I didnt want to you that I did because.......
Yes maybe good reason but still a contridiction.

In short there is no right answer.

[Tracii G]

Roberta kids learn from your example so be accepting of trans people,gay people and others thats all you need to do.
As far as your situation wait until one asks if they ever do.

My kids know me as a hard ass mean SOB because I used to be one but they have learned in their adulthood I am a fair and understanding person that has changed over time.
Would me coming out make a big difference? no not really so I don't see the need to.
But I do know some of her gay friends she went to college with so if they have said anything who knows?

[franlee]

Stephanie47 answered you with a really honest and like answer that I have lived with and will. That doesn't mean you can't go your own way and be wrong, but it is exactly my own feelings worded so well. Just think about the responsibilities that go with TMI on a child and how it could be used against the child or your family in so many ways. Some could be serious.

[Rogina B]

I will weigh in... As a "T serious", my Daughter has been everywhere with me since age 5. She is almost 16 1/2 now.I have raised her to embrace diversity and fully accept others. She is a top student and a wonderful Daughter. We are all happy that she grew up this way. However,your results may vary and what applies to a Daughter may not apply to a Son. Your question will bring lots of answers but few from people that revealed themselves to their young children. And "family secrets" fall in the category "it isn't a big deal unless you make it one"..

[Asew]

I wish my kids knew so I could wear skirts and be comfortable in my own home. My wife is concerned if I am public about it that they might get bullied for it. So it stays hidden for now.

[Rachelakld]

My youngest was 10, my youngest stepdaughter about 14.
kind of when they knew to not blab.
My oldest has a girlfriend who's 27 and after a few drinks nearly spilled the beans, luckily my oldest changed the subject real quick.
So not really about age, but maturity

[baldy1]

If you only cross dress then why even tell her, if you are transgender then that is a completely different story

Julie

[Teresa]

Maria,
I don't believe it is a contradiction , this forum wouldn't exist if CDing didn't create problems for other people , we may be OK about doing it but others are never going to come to terms with it . You only have to look at the problem with the bathroom bill in the US .

Rogina,
I can see that has worked for you but my daughter was badly bullied at school , she had so much to deal with the last thing she needed was taking me on board. We had to give her 110% support to get her through , she still went on to getting a degree in nursing and a second in speech and language . Now she has started to pay me back with her support which I would never have had and didn't expect when she was younger . Sorry but one size doesn't fit all , in my situation I feel I did the right thing and I know now my wife does respect me for that .

[Rogina B]

Teresa,you didn't need to show or tell as you weren't headed out of your darkroom closet. In order to live an out life as a TG person,there is a need to reveal. Totally different situation from a crossdresser.

[Teresa]

Rogina,
That's not relevant , despite me knowing that now , even if I were or knew it then it wouldn't have changed the situation, she was our priority not me !

[emma-louise]

I never told my daughter she,s 32 no, but has asked me who the tall woman with black hair was who used to look after her sometimes, still cant tell her the tall woman was me

[Ariana225]

It is important to me that one day I tell her who I am. I just was curious at what age others did. I realize there are people that had good and bad experiences. This younger generation is different than those that have kids in their 40s.

I keep thinking I am just a CDer, but it’s a need to express myself, I think I’m non binary. Coming out to my wife has saved me from drinking alcohol every day. I only drink 2 times a month now, socially, when it was every single day before that. I’m sure counseling wouldn’t hurt. Just being out to my wife and being allowed to express myself, even if it’s just underdressing, has curved my alcoholism and depression from the result of keeping that secret in the black pit.

[Teresa]

Roberta,
Maybe look back to your childhood and think how would you would have felt if you dad had come out to you. OK I don't know you age but for my generation would I have come to terms with it being faced with that ? My dad was over six feet tall and weighed about twenty stone ( 280lbs ? ) and red hair and a beard , the image of him in a dress and coming out , I think I might have run a way from home as a child !

I can see you have to achieve a balancing act , it does take time , the problem is there are no rules , what works for one could be a total disaster for another . I believe you have done the right thing , ask members here , put the answers together and work out what could work for you . To me my kids are precious , they are what we were put on the is planet for so we should take care of them first , there will come a time when we need that help in return , it's inevitable age or illness takes it's toll . I still feel I pitched it right I have the support of my family now when I need it to get through my separation ,they are here for me now if I want them , it' a good feeling .

[cdtraveler]

In my view unless you plan to be very open and public about your dressing I personnally would wait until they were post adolescence and secure with their own gender identity and only then on a need to know basis. If you plan to live and express openly then start very young and be cnsistent about it.

[VivianFrost]

Me and my wife are expecting our first and I find this thread very enlightening. Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and experiences!

[Sandra]

We told our daughter when she was 14 yeah not young but that's how it went with us. She is now 29 and has been supporting of her Dad and continues to be so does her fiancee.

One thing I will say, don't ask kids to keep your secret, this is not fair on them and they shouldn't be expected to keep the secret.

[Ariana225]

So Sandra, when you told her at 14 about her dad did she keep it a secret on her own? I’m sure she didn’t want to tell kids at school because of gossip, not because she was ashamed or anything. Did she tell anyone else besides her fiancé? Sorry I am just interested in how it went further and how it was processed.

[April Rose]

Roberta, I came out to my son when he was 22. He was moving back home, temporarily, and I felt it was necessary. It turned out he has known since he was 14. At that time he was certain my wife and I had Pot, and he tore the house apart looking for it. He didn't find any; we hadn't smoked it for years by then; but guess what he did find. He was fine with it and doesn't have a problem with LGBTQ people, even at one point touring in a punk band with a lead singer who transitioned and is now recording as a female.

As far as family secrets are concerned, first of all; you are not doing anything illegal, it's a new age; see above. Secondly, They go both ways. Now that he's 30 he's started telling me stories about the things he did as a kid, and it usually scares the crap out of me.

[Ariana225]

Roberta,
Maybe look back to your childhood and think how would you would have felt if you dad had come out to you.

I believe it is how you are raised on how you react to that news. I was brought up in a very conservative house that was anti gay, anti trans, anti minority, etc. (not all conservatives are like that, just giving my personal experience) When I got older I decided that wasn’t right and went my own way. I respect my dad, but not his views on people different than him. I would definitely be his biggest supporter if he was a CD because my other siblings got brain washed into that mentality and I escaped it.

But we were all raised different in that generation and previous generations. The younger generation is far more supportive of things like that. millenials are raising their kids to be far more accepting. The most unique generation by far.

[ambigendrous]

Consider this: if your child decides to tell ANYBODY "My Daddy and I have a secret I'm not supposed to talk about" you'll be getting a visit from CPS people in short order. People won't think "Oh, he must be a crossdresser" - they'll immediately jump to "Oh he's a pervert who's abusing his kid!"

As they get to be teenagers they'll have enough issues of their own to deal with - I don't know if adding to their burden at that time is prudent.

Maybe when they're adults they can deal with it, but in the end it will have to be an individual decision.

[Laura28]

I am from the camp it is private and nobody else’s business other then mine and those I choose to tell, knowing full well if tell a single person my secret is up. I also believe why would you want to tell your kids to me it selfish to do so. If you are transitioning that’s differnt but ask anyone keep a secret is wrong.

[Sandra]

So Sandra, when you told her at 14 about her dad did she keep it a secret on her own? I’m sure she didn’t want to tell kids at school because of gossip, not because she was ashamed or anything. Did she tell anyone else besides her fiancé? Sorry I am just interested in how it went further and how it was processed.

She was told that she could tell who she wanted to tell, which she did she told her best friend and eventually word did get round the school, we had already been up and spoke to the head about the situation. Amy did have a problem with one boy which after a while came to a head and well she hit him, not a slap but a punch, thus was not just because of her Dad but other stuff that had gone on with the boy at the school.

Amy has told anyone who she wants to tell, I know her work colleagues know. Things have gone even further with Nigella being TS, again Amy has supported her Dad and is very protective. Roll back a bit, when Amy was first told Nigella presented as a cder, Amy told us she knew there was something just couldn't put her finger on it. Then when Nigella eventually came out of denial about being TS Amy was told she then told her fiancé and things just went on as normal.

Children need to be given some credit, a lot of them are much more accepting than adults and that includes being accepting of there parent. Yes I know sometimes it goes wrong but there is some good that comes out of it for some not everyone and that is a shame.

[Ariana225]

Sandra, I appreciate you sharing your story! I’m glad everything turned out good with a few minor bumps. It’s scary because there are still bad people out there that target the TG/TS community to do harm.

I know it’s something that both me and my SO need to agree on or we don’t do it. I really do appreciate all the responses. It gives me a lot of perspectives. All I can do is take it day by day and see when the right time is. Moving 3 1/2 hours away from my home town will also give me better peace of mind. Small towns tend to result in a lot of gossip and drama because everyone knows everyone.

[raeleen]

this has come up a few times, and i think browsing through some of those older threads might help too.

it really depends on so many things, and i think you can see that there's a pretty wide range of opinions. yes, raising your kids to be open-minded and accepting is super important. and if you do that first step, it'll be more likely that they grow up to be kind and accpeting people. but i also think it's helpful if they can meet and be around folks of all different backgrounds. and if they grow up around folks who dress they won't view it as something odd or weird, or needing to be kept a secret.

i think i also have a tough time with the idea of 'femily secrets'. secrets imply something that there's shame or embarresment around a topic. and if it's framed as a secret, of course a kid is going to feel self-conscious about the idea and concept.

my kids know that their dad is non-binary. they know that i have dresses. they also have been around other trans folks and get that they're awesome and cool people just like everyone else. i'm also ok though if it does come out, if it does get told. if you're not, then telling them and risking that outcome might not be a good idea. it's a choice that only you and your partner can decide on. my kids are 10 and 8 now. They learned about it when they were about 5 and 7.

Good luck, hun. Whatever you decide for your family will be the best choice. But I believe in being open and transparent, and that working through these things as a family is important.

[Ariana225]

Thanks Raeleen! It’s definately going to be a path that I want to follow. Your way makes the most sense to me. I will take it slowly and one day at a time.

[DaisyLawrence]

Skip all previous replies and follow Raeleens' advise in post 39. Similar approach worked for me too. I'm proud of my open minded and accepting of all types of people son.

[Rogina B]

Daisy,Like my initial post said,"most opinions will come from those that have never experienced it". For a TG person,designing a satisfying life means inclusion from your direct family.

[Teresa]

Rogina/Daisy,
That attitude is OK as long as your children don't develop mental problems , thankfully mine didn't but coming out to young kids in a DADT situation isn't ideal , no matter where you are on the TG spectrum lack of understanding and acceptance is going to tear a young family apart , I still think my actions were adult and responsible ones , OK I suffered for it but that's life, it's far from perfect but they are now adult enough to deal with it .

[Connie D50]

I have two girls which I told at around 15 years old. If I felt they couldn't handle it I would have waited. Of course telling your children or not is up to you.

[Krisi]

I often say you should not tell anyone who does not need to know. That would apply to your children as well. If you plan on prancing around the house in a tutu and six inch heels, you're going to have to tell them. If you can limit your dressing to when they are out of the house, you do not.

Children shouldn't be burdened with a secret like this and they probably won't be able to keep it. More importantly, they can use this secret to blackmail you. Tell your daughter she can't go to the mall and she may threaten to tell people about your crossdressing.

My advice: Don't tell and don't let them find out.

[Ariana225]

Rogina/Daisy,
That attitude is OK as long as your children don't develop mental problems

Really? You think that would cause mental problems? Do you also think a gay couple raising up a kid would also cause mental problems? Kids brought up to be loving, accepting, and embracing of other people’s differences would not skip a beat.

If I raised my daughter for years and she told me she was really a man. I would be loving the same exact person unconditionally. You got to give kids more credit, they will still see you as the same loving person that has always been there for them. Sure it takes everyone time to process things, but people that truly love someone will come around.

[Teresa]

Roberta,
It's not a hypothetical answer, my daughter was seriously bullies at school, it reduced her to a devastating state at times , she needed a great deal of support from us as parents , I'm so proud of her now as she has gone on to achieve two degrees , it would never have happened without that, she is now returning that love and support .

[Ariana225]

Teresa,

I’m probably just confused then. You said you waited to tell your kids later in life then said something about your daughter being bullied in school. The dresssing and bullying were not cause and effect then right? Sorry I was just looking for clarification, because I wasn’t understanding what you were saying.

[Sissy_in_pink]

My daughter was about 4 or 5 I didn't tell her cause I doubt if she would have understood, so I put a dress on and let her see me, no makeup or wig as that would have just added to her confusion. When she saw me in the dress she was enthralled and seemed to like my in female clothes, until that is when her mother found out and poisoned her mind by saying that if her friends found out that they would leave her as if she had the plague. So from then on she stopped liking it, mothers can be so cruel to their kids.

On this site we talk a lot about being excepted by everyone. If we can't get our kids to except us when they are young, how in hell are we ever going to get excepted by adults, attitudes are developed at a young age, so at a young age is when they should be told.

[Teresa]

Roberta,
That's OK , in fact I accidentally came out to my daughter, she must have been in her early twenties doing her second degree , I forgot she was working in her bedroom and I was ironing a dress of mine , she interrupted me, took one look at the dress and knew it didn't belong to my wife so I told her the whole story . She had dealt with these issues in her nursing degree course so was perfectly OK about it. Since then she has been so supportive, giving me makeup items , she has seen my pictures and doesn't have a problem with visiting me no matter how I'm dressed in my new home, her husband is also perfectly OK about the whole situation .

[Cherylgyno]

My daughters caught me when they were 11&13. I didn't want to tell them but felt obligated to explain their father fully dressed in women's clothes. My daughters explained that cross dressing was covered in sex ed. I never did tell my son.
Just my opinion but I think that 4 years old is too young to handle such a MOAS.
As for your wife's opinion. Never ever forget rule 1. If the wife ain't happy no one is happy.

[Teresa]

Cheryl,
Rule 1 , Oh so true !

I had the problem where my daughter would have heated debates about my issues , I had to tell her nicely to back off and not be caught piggy in the middle . I can't say what the situation is between my daughter and my wife now we have separated , whether my daughter places most of the blame on her for having to go down this road . Now I come to think about it maybe I should clear that point up with her . CDing may have been the main factor but maybe it was going to happen anyway .

[Asew]

Rule #1 is the main thing. My wife is supportive of my dressing in the bedroom but does not want it in front of the kids or community. Part of it is that we are looking to adopt and thinks it would look bad to the Christian values adoption agency if they learned about it.

[raeleen]

isn't this whole rule #1: 'if the wife isn't happy, no one is happy' kind of thing part of the dated and sexist perspective around gender that we should be trying to break free from? isn't that rule saying that you should sacrifice your happiness to keep others happy? what about working it out so everyone is able to feel fulfilled and happy in their lives? if your wife would continue to hold this against you, doesn't that say something about the relationship? maybe it's a sign of some deeper issue that you should be working out together?

just saying. let's not fall into the old tropes and narrative. let's build a new one. younger generations are already embracing it. to be honest, the ones holding them, and society, back are us adults for the most part.

[Teresa]

Raeleen,
Whatever it's saying it's something many of us have to live with on the forum, I don't know if they have ever done a poll of how many are in a serious DADT situation.

If someone close doesn't approve it's always going to be a compromise , you can try working on it till you're are blue in the face but if they're not shifting view point that's it , I call it hitting a brick wall !!

[Ariana225]

isn't this whole rule #1: 'if the wife isn't happy, no one is happy' kind of thing part of the dated and sexist perspective around gender that we should be trying to break free from? isn't that rule saying that you should sacrifice your happiness to keep others happy? what about working it out so everyone is able to feel fulfilled and happy in their lives? if your wife would continue to hold this against you, doesn't that say something about the relationship? maybe it's a sign of some deeper issue that you should be working out together?

just saying. let's not fall into the old tropes and narrative. let's build a new one. younger generations are already embracing it. to be honest, the ones holding them, and society, back are us adults for the most part.

For the most part my wife is accepting because she knows it makes me happy. She will buy me girly things, see me in girly things, etc. But she doesn’t like to see me go full transformation around her.

That’s why both of us follow rule #1 towards each other. Relationships work when both give and take equally. It would be selfish if she was the only one happy or If I was the only one happy.

Btw, this is Roberta. That was a spin off my middle name which I just used until I could find a better name. Ariana is such a pretty name so I went with that.

[Asew]

Well because of this thread I talked further with the wife about telling the kids. We made a plan that works for both of us.

Raleen,
I love your ideals. But you have to be realistic and if your SO doesn't want the kids to know and you still let them know, this is going to cause problems with sometimes serious consequences (such as divorce or the SO making the kids see the dressing as a negative thing).

[raeleen]

100% relationships are compromise, but so many of us harbor so much guilt and shame that we are willing to give in on lots of things just to get small snippets of time and space to dress. that's not compromise. it's one-sided.

and if you're hitting a brick wall with someone, are they really a person who you want to be in a relationship with? is there something else which is causing the unwillingness to move or work with you? I'm saying that it might be worth some deeper exploration. I don't really think of it as an ideal to live up to. it's really just working on ourselves and our relationships. if the person you have partnered with is unwilling to see how hiding or not giving some space for you to express yourself is hurting you, is that a relationship you want to be in? sure, there are consequences in the world, and each person has to decide on their own what's worth it for them, but the assumptions that this narrative that exists now, one of DADT, is really damaging. we accept so much crap thrown our way, wouldn't it be nice to be able to say, this is what i want?

[Rogina B]

we accept so much crap thrown our way, wouldn't it be nice to be able to say, this is what i want?

I really believe that if members actually accepted themselves and confidently explained themselves and said what they truly needed,then these lopsided relationships would change for the better.

[Angie G]

Imho NEVER. BUT THATS ME.:hugs:
Angie