Time to tell the transphobic partner...advice?

[elizabethamy]

Hi everyone,

I got so much insight from my last thread so here's another one. I've been to a gender therapist who's ready to give me the hormone letter whenever I want it and who urges me to tell my transphobic (but otherwise very liberal, open and nice) wife as soon as I possibly can, ideally within the next week.

My wife knew I was experimenting with transsexuality 8 years ago and gradually became more hardened in her opposition. At first she just wanted me to promise I wouldn't become a woman (!), then just that I keep my explorations private, inside the house, then that I never put on one piece of jewelry or women's clothing or talk to or about any trans folks/support groups, etc. So we went into 5 years of absolutely nothing.

She says she was traumatized by the earlier exploration and therefore can't cope at all with a trans person on TV, let alone anything personal. If she sees a trans person in town she uses terms like "man" or even "it."

Otherwise, she is a great person and much beloved by everyone she knows -- I'm not joking. So I have always thought that her transphobia was all about trauma from the earlier episode.

So today, serendipitously, my quarterly appointment with my psych medicine provider (nurse practitioner) happened to come around. So I told her all about my re-emerged trans issues and that I am taking steps, seeing the gender therapist, etc. Her comment on my wife: "maybe she's so hostile about it not because she was traumatized, but because she knows that you are going to have to transition at some point and just can't bear to face it."

I had (stupidly) never considered that she already knows on some really profound level, but it sounds right to me.

Now how to tell her what is happening with me? I'm thinking of just saying it: I've been suffering for a long time, I know this is unfair to you, but I can't function any more, I know it's very real, and I have to act, and I can't put any boundaries around it because I don't know how far I have to go, though I suspect myself a full transsexual, and my providers think so, too. All that in the context of my love and respect for her.

I also plan to give her a letter -- she hates this kind of thing, but I want to make sure I have said what I want to say clearly.

Does this sound right to you, knowing that you don't know her or me? I'm ready for the consequence of losing my marriage. I can't go on the way I have been. Maybe her transphobia will vanish and she'll want to stay together. Maybe not. But I want to tell her clearly and fairly.

Advice? thoughts? Do it on a weekend, or on a night before work? Is my gender therapist right that I should do it asap, not wait at all?

thanks -- love to hear about your experiences if you can stand to re-tell them...

elizabethamy

[Rachael Leigh]

Liz you have so much packed into this it’s hard to know what to say. I know from my own experience you need to have a plan and if that does mean a full transition be sure you are commited to that.
As far as your marriage from what it sounds like your wife’s attitude is not likely to change and if you say your prepared for
it to end then make sure it’s worth it to you to go forward
I personally made lots of mistakes going toward what I thought would be a transition and now I’ve stopped that route for
various reasons. Just work with your gender therapists to work through this

[elizabethamy]

Rachael, thanks. The whole thing is so overwhelming - but I know that I can only take one step at a time, and because of my home situation, the first step (other than these initial therapist consultations) has to be telling her, then seeing what happens there. I'm not committed to a particular outcome, though I have notions of what it might be...but I can't do any experimenting outside my own mind until we have our talk...I hope your journey goes well!

elizabethamy

[Sara Olivia]

Hello Elizabeth,
Wow that is a difficult position in which you are finding yourself in. If you are certain that you need to tell her then my advice is to do it sooner rather than later. It will not get easier by waiting. You will just find yourself in a position where you will be unable to focus on pretty much anything but the issue at hand. As for your letter idea, I think its a great one. Its what I did because it permitted me to say what I needed to get out without being flustered or anxious or anything. I took my time writing it and made sure it said exactly what I wanted it to say. Then after they read the letter we were able to have a more meaningful conversation on the subject.

I wish you all the best of luck and I sincerely hope that she will come around and accept you for the person you are - and if that person is a woman named Elizabeth then so be it.

[LeaP]

EA - forget the letter. It’s a way of trying to control the conversation and it won’t help. Better for the two of you to find a counselor together and then use him/her as a facilitator. Don’t get a counselor yourself and suggest going and don’t even consider using any of your providers. You both need to do this together.

On another note, I wouldn’t impute transphobia from a spouse’s devastation. One doesn’t necessarily exclude the other, but neither does the latter make the case for the former. She’s having her life upended (just as you are, of course) and you are essentially blaming her. Even if necessarily so, you need to accept that you are the source of the disruption. Her reaction is completely understandable. My advice is that if you decide you must proceed, do so without unnecessary delay, but with kindness. And be prepared to take (and take and take and take) the brunt of the onslaught - assuming you love her as you say.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I agree with the idea of joint counselling somehow.

It doesn't seem like you'll get a favorable response, but having a therapist's support during the big reveal may reduce the size of the explosion and may even open up the opportunity for dialog.

From personal experience, my wife is DADT, but she allows me more freedom than yours does. But, I'm sure that she wouldn't even tolerate HRT, never mind a full transition. Mut, of course, YMMV.

[LeaP]

Steffi, none of this is about toleration or spousal freedom. It’s survival. The kind of GD that EA is describing is horrific. It’s mentally and physically debilitating, seriously so in the medical sense. It drives like a freight train to resolution, whether transition, HRT, or whatever else quiets it. It demands that we be seen for what we are, by someone, somewhere, somehow, at the very least, whether or not accepted, tolerated, or rejected. DADT crossdressing need not apply. There’s nothing wrong with it, it just misses the point.

[pamela7]

Hi ElizabethAmy,

Another (of many possible) perspective of your wife's position is to control a situation and keep you as the man she wanted you to be. If true, then she might not be quite as transphobic and it might not be a guaranteed split of marriage. Or, she truly is and it is the end, or she might use the threat to try to keep you as the man. Only by going there will you know.

I'd say that she's known a long time, you have tried and failed to be the man she wants you to be, and the real you is now going to be out and about, and either she loves you for you or she needs a man and she decides to end the marriage. That's clear, simple and i think will be a good approach given your info.

[elizabethamy]

I really appreciate the comments. I feel bad about blaming my wife for her feelings. She was traumatized by this once before, and perhaps avoiding ever seeing it helps keep her fears at bay. I'm the one that created the trauma, though everyone here knows it's really not something i could help. LeaP is so right that the dysphoria just swallows you up; you think it's going to stay small, like an annoying itch in the back of your brain, but after a while it overwhelms everything. I have felt completely differently about myself and my life prospects ever since I allowed myself to reopen this issue and to see a specialist. I look at the world with hope and I am optimistic and positive as I haven't been in a long time. It's sad, and that doesn't even begin to describe it, that our (my) loved ones won't want to participate in this journey; if my wife surprises me and wants to be supportive that would be wonderful. But I'm ready either way.

LeaP, you're also right about the letter. Even as backup it's a mistake for the two of us. She is away all weekend and I'm away when she gets back, so I'm going to work until Monday night to find the words and then to say them, then we'll see what happens. We've had joint counseling before, and I'm open to it, but only if she's open to being supportive. This time, no matter how sad it makes me to do this to her, I simply can't negotiate some kind of half-assed DADT like agreement. That won't do anything for me.

It sounds selfish, but after decades of depression, low self-esteem, letting others lead and do what they want first, I believe I have reached that point that all the veterans on this forum warn about: when you just have to do it. What "it" is will be unveiled one step at a time, and I have some great support on here and a couple people in town that I've already reached out to in ministerial confidence, so I'm not going backward this time. And I also don't want to participate in the deception; last night I took my gender workbook home and covered it with the jacket of a textbook from my class just in case she looked through my book bag or saw me reading...I'm glad I did that because that's exactly the kind of thing I hate and that ruins any sense of trust between two people, and it reminded me of how badly I want not to be lying and covering up any more.

In hope and fear, but mostly hope,

elizabethamy

[Teresa]

Elizabethamy,
I'm not totally convinced about your deep desire to transition , you appear to be uncertain in your own mind and the wording of your thread does suggest you don't feel it 100% . Using words like exploring and being able to accept it not happening outside the home. Also allowing your counsellors to appear to be the deciding factor rather than you showing that deep need through struggling with GD.

I understand the problems that can arise from a partner who just doesn't want to know, I know it can cast doubts in your own mind, it is hard at times to believe in yourself under those circumstances , I had to find ways to work round my wife , I had to believe in myself and what I really wanted, OK In my circumstances it has meant separation but at least I can now decide what road I'm going to take , I'm also finding it takes longer than I expected to get the old thinking and influences out of my head .

I suggest you make it certain in your own mind before you put it to your wife .

[Lisalove1976]

I am in a very similar situation mostly because of my own fault and not sticking up for Lisa and not wanting to hurt the one's I LOVE.... I was also thinking of writing her a letter for the same reasons as you and because no matter how much I plan the conversation in my hear the thought train always takes a different route and derails!
The letter to me seems like a good idea (my wife also hates them) but as times moves on Lisa becomes more and more part of me and mentally I suffer from having to keep her locked up. I would also tell her about the suffering in the hope that she would understand and that a little goes a long way in the fight BUT from past experiences I'm pretty sure she would turn it on me and say it's "always about you" which will in turn shut me down and put Lisa back in the suitcase for longer!

not sure if this helps or not but I though I'd give you my opinion

Lisa

[elizabethamy]

Teresa,

Thanks -- I feel more certain than I sound. To have discovered this late in life and to find virtually zero in the literature about similar people feeds the doubts that I think probably go with the territory. Counselors have not told me what to do but have reinforced my certainty, though it was the gender therapist who pointed out the one step at a time idea, knowing that some people find their needs addressed short of a full transition. Having suppressed this without much exploration other than online and in my head, I just can't say for certain where it stops, though I have a deep feeling that I am going to transition fully, without knowing why I feel that way. So we'll see. The point I was trying to make about talking to my wife (among others in my disjointed posts) is that the one thing I can't promise her is that I'll stop at point A, B, or C. On the one hand, I don't want to rush anything; on the other hand, I've waited a long time to be the person i was meant to be. That's the balancing act. Part of the "one-step-at-a-time" theory is just realizing how much is involved in a real transition, and how long it's likely to take. I don't want to be overwhelmed or smothered by thinking of everything I have to do, because I can't do it all at once.


Does this make sense?

e.a.

[Sara Olivia]

As for a counselor. We did that too but every time the counselor agreed with a point that I made, or made a point herself supporting me, my wife took it as us ganging up on her. In the end we resolved our issues and are still happily married.

[elizabethamy]

Isn't that always the problem with couples' counseling? That the person who doesn't want to change feels ganged up on by the therapist and the other partner? The only reason I can see to do that again would be for my wife to have a better understanding of what I have to do. I have lived my life like a ghost never feeling whole and doing whatever others want, including her, until I'm ready to explode, die, or take a chance on finding my true self. I can be counseled but I won't be talked out of what I have to do. When we did couples counseling several years ago, she did interpret it as being ganged up on, but really I think the therapist was trying to (a) give us a chance to stay together and (b) help us recognize that this is a real need I have and that it can't be suppressed. But suppress it I did, and not again. Not this time.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

there is no counseling that will help if your partner is not interested...
the comments are right...my wife and my mom hated my therapist... my mom called her a "guru"... just telling me what I wanted to hear.....heh...she was kind of right in a way!!

in my opinion
here is what can possibly help...

you gently tell her what you are doing...AND YOU DO IT....
its not a question...its not a negotiation.
she can say anything, do anything, threaten, cry, etc... not going to change anything...

and what do you tell her you are doing??
all you are doing is going to a therapist and considering measures to mitigate your gender dysphoria...
you've repressed it for her...and its killing you...its killing you... you are in despair...
and you've come to the conclusion that the best way to get out of despair is to explore your gender fully and openly...and you've already given a lot of thought and in your mind you are trans and that is what you want to talk to a therapist about..

that statement is crystal clear...and its perfectly true... anything more just complicates things..

and you cannot make any promises about what that means or doesnt mean...its a search...you are finally going to help yourself get better....whatever that takes, whatever that means...
talking about things in the future like transition makes no sense if you haven't even gone outside as yourself yet...

I cant lie...we've talked a lot...its very unlikely to go well... and I doubt it matters much what you say or how you say it...so its important that what you say feels RIGHT TO YOU...and works for you...
because that is what you will be left with... and you dont want the doubt of "did I say enough? too much??"..etc.. you cannot be in a position where you've made comments or promises that will make this therapy harder or any progress slower...

there is sadness and loss involved...she has controlled your situation and now you are taking control... that's what will need to be understood...

I urge you to not think too much... to keep it simple and to not back down if you are challenged...

also..you might hate this...talk to a lawyer...you have rights... my ex kicked me out... I left ...I never should have done that..in the end it worked out as best it could, but if this becomes a battle you will need to be prepared to not make mistakes that will cost you a lot of money or lose property... she cant kick you out ...you kick her out..lol..see what im saying??

I feel bad for you guys because I have been through it, and ive seen it..... but on other hand, life moves on and on the other side is all the stuff you want to start working on to live your own best life..

[Teresa]

Elizabethamy,
That is a very good point, when we do finally talk it through never make promises we can't keep , I've been saying this for sometime . We can't predict our route or how far , to others it may appear we are avoiding the issue but it's trying to be honest with ourselves before we can attempt to discuss it with others.

The single answer I always received was , " I'm not the one who's broken so I don't need fixing and it's my problem and it's for me to sort it !" That is difficult knowing how the counselling is going and the direction it's obviously heading in but you have no where to go with it , you're facing a brick wall with no way round it .

I have to say the sentence in Kaitlyn's reply saying she has controlled the situation now you are taking over control , we do have a life outside of marriage but we gradually give so much of that up until we raise the question , " What about me , don't I have a life and a say in it ?"

I admit that old chestnut of if someone is being selfish which one of us is it ? Also whose the one that's expected to make the compromises , so inevitably we get the finger pointed at us because in their eyes we are the guilty party .

[Tina_gm]

Hi. From a somewhat lurking guest on this sub forum, I am in a sense going through what you are. What was me being a casual CDer for 6 years has progressed to far more. While my at home arrangements never changed, internally I have been progressing more and more feminine in nature. Basically (as there was communication with my wife) that I was just progressing to be a more and more feminine man, there came a point where being a man, at least in a way in which she needs is no longer something I am able to give her. I am not predicting for you how it will go for you, but my wife and I are separating. It is not a separation out of anger but one of love. She and I are both basically loving each other enough to let the other one go and live the life they need to live.

My wife hates anything about TG. It is just not in her make up to be accepting to it. She has tried, over 6 years but never came to a point of comfort about any of it. As I have progressed, it became harder and harder to be the husband she needs, and harder and harder for her to be the accepting wife I need. I do agree with the others that when you do tell, just tell all without imposing any boundaries on yourself. That is where I am at right now. I am uncertain where it will lead as I have zero experience being out of the house, no street time as it is often said on here, so I really don't know yet where I will end up. Perhaps on this subforum, but perhaps not. I am not directing it in any direction, just seeing how and where it will go without the boundaries.

[Teresa]

Tina,
I separated a month ago it had to happen , we both know it was the right thing to do .

OK zero outside experience , maybe do what I did and find a social group, it's the best thing I ever did . Most will be happy to accept you in drab and allow you to change at the meeting . It's not ideal , usually it means squashing in a toilet/ restroom at least you are in a friendly environment until you build up your confidence . Shopping trips and mixing with the public can then happen in stages , it's all steps at your pace but not under a restrictive DADT situation .

[Nadine Spirit]

you gently tell her what you are doing...AND YOU DO IT....
its not a question...its not a negotiation.
she can say anything, do anything, threaten, cry, etc... not going to change anything...



This right here people.

[elizabethamy]

I totally agree. As Kaitlyn Michele knows all too well, I have tried everything else. DADT, total repression, every dpression/anxiety med there is, even thought-policing away the GD. I actually even went on testosterone supplements at one point, though my T levels weren't particularly low. (If you want to increase the sexual fetishism portion of your GD, testosterone works great, but it also makes the GD take on a more urgent, fierce quality. Ugly stuff.)

The big criticism of all trans people on those aggrieved-spouse sites and books is our selfishness. I'm just going to say that I think I have never figured out how to live as the self I am, and it starts now. I have always felt certain, since this GD revealed itself to me so dramatically several years ago, that I am TS, and I'll be surprised if this stops short of transition, but Kaitlyn is right: just as I can't promise her not to go beyond whatever boundary she hopes for, I also have no reason to know that I will transition fully until I start taking hormones, going out, getting more expert counseling, meeting other trans people, all of it.

Just deciding to stop repressing it has made me feel better than I have in years, and I plan to get a whole lot better as I actually take real steps. I think if I could offer any wisdom to others, NOT experimenting, "compromising" in the name of your job or your family or your marriage leads to misery, if you feel the GD strongly. Perhaps those with a slight dose of GD can be happy with compromise but they don't tend to stick around the TS forum because they have found what they need.

I know that for most of us, "selfish" really means self-care, for many of us for the first time in our lives. I'm girlishly excited about that!

Kaitlyn, I hear you about the lawyer. My main concern along those lines is to assure my wife that I won't abandon her financially and leave her impoverished. I am incredibly fortunate to have a job where transpeople are protected and I can keep my job no matter how my appearance changes, so long as I have the courage to stay. (The last job I had, I was in the process of getting fired before the trans issues even came up, so this is insanely great by comparison.) The insurance covers everything but FFS, and that's a bridge I won't have to cross for a while, if ever.

I just hope people who read this understand that my lack of courage and good will got me nothing but six more years of misery, and it's not like my family has a great time being around me -- my gloomy nature depresses and angers my wife. So she didn't "win" even though she hasn't had to look at me with nail polish, long hair, camisoles and plucked eyebrows. Nobody wins with repression. What I can tell her if she decides to try staying with me is that she'll get something out of it: a happier partner. It might be too hard to watch and too weird, but that's going to be the result. I can already tell.

Love and thanks to everyone.

elizabethamy

[Devi SM]

Elizabeth,
I read some of the comments but no time now to read all of them.
There's a lot of wisdom in them.
My own experience.
I out to my wife 2 years ago. She's really homophobic. We're from a country where homosexuality and related topics still being taboo.
I'm bisexual and crossdresser was basically the confession.
It was in a trip to San Francisco, 6 hours drive in one direction, then we had two sick days there.
I still feeling sad for the sadness I provoked on her but after 2 years love is our conversation.
If yoiur wife loves you (you must appeal to her love for you and family) do not wait she can understand you, more than that you try to understand her.
As others I don't see you 100% clear on what you want.
Getting out to wife makes a lot of difference in one's mind.
My sexuality and promiscuity, even my interest in men and sex itself has changed a lot and now is under control.
I promised no to lay with men and I'd been faithfully to that.
For now my main interest is being who I am and she has let me do it but everything has been an evolution in my mind as well in her but always appealing to our love and commitment to end our lives together...

[KellyJameson]

Being a sexed being can cause confusion concerning identity. It is not possible to remove the influences of sex as it pertains to gender identity.

Marriage usually is a sexed based relationship even when there is no sex because it was built on a foundation of sex.

A husband who is ruled by a wife is vulnerable to identity confusion because it reverses the sexual energies causing the person to question their identity (who and what they are)

Men who crossdress are trying to give expression to something that they identify as "feminine" but this is a mistake.

It is not feminine but simply something they do not know how to ( or won't) express except in " female form"

This form is a caricature of what women really are.

The men on this forum are vulnerable to confusion as a result of their participating in crossdressing. The crossdressing does for them what alcohol does for the alcoholic. Each is an escape to avoid confronting the actual problem and that is the problem created collectively by men and labelled "masculinity"

The rules men insist men live by to be respected as men create a trap for men who cannot live by them and remain human.

Unresolved gender dysphoria destroys the mind like a cancer. It cannot be controlled, questioned, ignored or compromised with.

I strongly urge you to question whether you are a man to fearful to live as a man so are running into the safety of "femininity".

So many men worship the feminine because they do not relate to the masculine without ever seeing that both concepts (the feminine and masculine) are toxic and inter-dependent but also illusionary and created out of fear.

This forum is largely made up of men in the later stages of life who are reflecting on a life possibly wasted and coming to an end.

They may be in or entering into an existential crisis and calling it "gender dysphoria"

Transitioning late in life should be done with no illusions because of the vulnerabilities inherent in old age.

No matter what you thing it means to be a woman you will be wrong from always having lived as a man. It is nothing like what men think it is . It is not about being pretty or wearing pretty clothes. It is in no way a male fantasy.

Before you can understand what it is to be a man or a woman you must know and have experienced what it is to be fully human otherwise you will be a caricature of both.

Be careful!

[LeaP]

Strong statements, Kelly.

Agreed on sexed being a source of confusion. I’m thinking primarily here about one’s sense of self vs. the body, however. The physical cannot be ignored or denied. The best you can do is come to terms with it.

Marriage is based on gender roles at *least* as much as sex. Either way, it reduces to cultural norms. Remember, in most places, at most times, marriage has not been about sex. Roles, however, still applied, and over a wide variety of practices and expectations.

A spouse ruled by a spouse has bigger problems than gender.

Nothing exists outside of a context. CDs swim in the context - the expression AS femininity. TS pass through it, often imitating until finding their own expression. Often, “crossdressing” is the first thing dropped on the discovery path. You can’t, however, blame people for ultimately assimilating into their own culture and expression. Both men and women live (or reference) caricatures ... archetypes, really.

Kelly, I really don’t think men flee from masculinity to femininity. The pattern for men is withdrawal.

Your statement about living as a woman having lived as a man may be miscontrued as invalidating. It also appears to contradict your prior statements about fleeing masculinity. I think you’ve put too strong an emphasis on aspects of the undeniable confusion and cliche with which many wrestle to the exclusion of a more centrist perspective - again, some sort of reasonable assimilation. People need to do the best they can, and few are prepared (or need) to dive into the existential wormhole you open.

Best - Lea.

[elizabethamy]

I appreciate the warnings, but I feel less confused right now than at any time I can recall, since puberty, which I still remember as a living nightmare. So many threads of my past, characteristics I have both had and lacked, elements of my marriage and my shortage of friends, of my confused way of getting through the world: all hidden by a mask of masculinity, the baggy sweaters and jeans, the beard and mustache, the big thick glasses. I don't look at myself in the mirror and I don't want anyone else to see me (yet). Because what's underneath the mask is something entirely different. I can't wait to reveal the person who is hiding underneath all that.

Crossdressing, the way Kelly describes it, is also a mask; the perfect female role an unattainable fantasy. The self-medicating analogy doesn't hold for me. When I drink out of desperation because I am losing my mind, there is an explosive quality to the whole thing. My only goal is to quiet the rage of the beast. But when I change my dress to feminine I do it not out of rage but to feel calm, connected, whole. It's a little hint of what's to come.

It hurts me to think I backed off and lost seven years when I could have been becoming a whole person, but it also strengthens my resolve that any notion my midlife revelations could have been a delusion born of crisis have been proven false. I'm sure this time, and I'm ready for the consequences.

I apologize if I have portrayed my wife as some kind of sadistic ruler. She has tried a hundred different ways to enable me to be an equal partner -- the man in the relationship -- but I have been unable to do so not because of her but because I am now sure that all I was able to do was act somewhat like a man. For her it must have been like living with a ghost. My wife is a lovely person who tried to improve the marriage constantly, and I was reluctant to do anything that was needed and oblivious to who I was. My defense was avoiding facing the truth about myself, which is why it remained hidden for so long. I had to work at it. Of course she is not going to respond well to what I have to say. (If she does, I will be the luckiest transperson on earth.) If not, I will always understand why.

The crossdressers who have a female fantasy that they will take a few hormone pills and then be twirling their skirts in the sunny city plaza belong in the other half of the forum. They have not had one thousandth of the difficulty that i have already had without taking the first step toward becoming a woman. It's some kind of fun and games for them that is just out of reach and baffling for me.

I know this conversation with my wife, as well as everything I have to do for the next few months and years is going to be very, very hard, and the end result will not look like Scarlett Johannsen, or even her grandmother. But the end result will finally be me, a true representation of who I really am, and no matter how many or how few years I have left, I will celebrate the discovery every day I am alive, no matter what else happens.

I don't condemn anyone for their views or for the path they have taken. It is very difficult to be a whole person in this world, and whatever works for someone should be honored and celebrated, including fashion-driven CD fetish-excess. Kelly is certainly right that each of us must take a hard look inside before reconfiguring the outside, but I would wager all the money i'll spend on my transition that virtually everyone in the TS forum is doing exactly that.

Thanks for listening.

elizabethamy



\

[Nicole Erin]

You have to decide how to live your own life.
The marriage may possibly end. Being TG causes a lot of us to eventually lose our marriage.
It's alright though, marriage is but an act and a legal bind between two people.

The only people in this world we really owe anything to is ourselves. Cannot live for someone else.

[Teresa]

Kelly,Some interesting observations .

I call the expectations of what a man is about and how he should conduct his life according to society as being forced to were a male straight jacket . From my own experience I went along with that for many years , " Hey look at me I've done male things to show you all I can do it !" I don't regret that there are parts of that life I wouldn't change for the World . But what is this gut feeling that also exists that only becomes satisfied when I appear female , they're only clothes OK at times they become very arousing but what lies behind and beyond that ? I now see the outer appearance as a window to the World of how I feel inside , not a caricature, but an outward admission . I've never feared living as a man because that's all I knew from a nearly age , I would prefer to live as a woman but I still partially fear that because I have to pass through the society hoops again. Living as a man or a woman in modern society isn't really that different anymore , there are many single parent families , we do many of the same jobs , women are equal to or some times superior in certain fields .

The crux of all this is not the thought of which gender do I wish to live the rest of my life as but it's summed up in one word , " DECISION !" How do I make the right one ? Who do I turn to to help me make it ? and who will be by my side when I've finally made that choice ? That is what makes most people tick living with their chosen route .

[Devi SM]

You have to decide how to live your own life.
The marriage may possibly end. Being TG causes a lot of us to eventually lose our marriage.
It's alright though, marriage is but an act and a legal bind between two people.

The only people in this world we really owe anything to is ourselves. Cannot live for someone else.

Can I disagree with you?
We, human beings, as others races on the planet, need the others for survival as something basic thing.
Psicologically and emotionally we are interdepent.
Even legally marriage is a legal biding contract, resllky few people gets into that contract thinking on business but in a reciprocal relationship based in love.
I agree with you in the sense that finally who matter a is us but part of that "us "me" for its happiness need the happiness of the other part thst in this case is hers and anyone, intimally needs to make a desicions on what kind of "sacrifices" I'm willing to do for the happiness of that person.
In my case, I love my wife and she has been willing to sacrifice several things of her needs of a man for love me and see me fulfill my happiness but I've done sacrifices and I don't know yet how ready I'm to not be the full woman I'd like to be but see her happy. If this symbiosis survive I'm not throw away my marriage just because me because I do love my wife too and those reciprocal feelings are a need for me to...
But finally I did that decision based on the love that she shows me and I was ready to sacrifice part of my life because she was willing to donut too but if she wouldn't show me love with sacrifice the contract does t work for a breach of the fundament of it that is Love.
So it's a very personal decision, who I do love more and what makes more happy, my own and selfish happiness or my happiness of seeing the reason of my love happy?.

[elizabethamy]

Vanessa,

This is very hard -- I appreciate what you're saying. But I have a proposal for this discussion: let's not use the word "selfish." Finding your self -- finally -- is not selfish. What's selfish is abandoning your family without thought for their well-being, which some mtf's have been known to do, but that isn't something most people on this forum would.

Nicole, you alway get right to the point! I appreciate your amazing ability to cut through the typical elizabethamy word cloud!

[Teresa]

Vanessa,
That word selfish does cut both ways, I find separating wasn't a selfish act but a caring one, in fact we both knew it the right thing to do . To me it's early days yet but some of the phone calls I've received from my wife since have turned that selfish issue around she is now tuning that on me because she now realises she's handled the whole issue badly . She thought she'd got what she wanted now she has regrets . I know there's no going back on it , the damage is done and words can't be unsaid .

Elizabeth,
That's the ace card I'm being dealt now , despite it not being true . On the one hand I'm being told I'm out of any decision making and on the other I'm not making enough effort to be there for the family , trying to live my own life and set up my own home I'm told lacks responsibility and importance . OK hands up I'm the guilty party whether I say I care or not .

[Mirya]

Hi everyone,
Advice? thoughts? Do it on a weekend, or on a night before work? Is my gender therapist right that I should do it asap, not wait at all?


I agree with your gender therapist in that you should tell your wife ASAP. Like, do it today. If you are serious about this (and it sounds like you are), then it's time for you to take concrete steps toward a transition. You've already wasted enough years pondering and contemplating and repressing. You need to tell your wife so you can finally get started. It's beyond past time for you to freely explore your gender identity by making real-life changes and meeting real-life people in real world transgender communities and support groups. It's time to be real.

[elizabethamy]

OK. I told her. It was hard; she sees it the way I predicted, the end of our relationship, as soon as we can work out the details. I was able to say my piece and make it clear that I have to do this, and that I'm really sorry for her that it has come to this, and that it's not her fault but that I am also not turning into a monster...but she doesn't want to stick around and watch it happen. Too embarrassing.

She kept saying, why tell me now? I just said, I can't go through the deception, the hidden clothes, the secret therapist appointments -- can't do it. No lies. Just have to address this issue which is killing me. She understands but doesn't want any part of it and worries about her future financially and in terms of being all alone.

I'm relieved, sad, not deterred.

Thank you all for your suggestions. You gave me courage and clarity that I badly needed to be able to figure out who I am.

elizabethamy

[pamela7]

well done. i can imagine you feel a lot better for shedding the secrecy, but also feel bad for her and the ending of your marriage. the depth of experience is rich and what life is all about, the highs and lows.

best wishes

[Teresa]

Elizabeth,
If I didn't know it I feel I could be reading my own story .
I hope it all works out OK for you , it's no one's fault but at least you have laid all the cards on the table, no hidden issues , no more lies or enforced deceit . Please be patient it takes time , I don't know if your circumstances are the same as mine but we made this decision last August , the house went on the market but's now only just happening for me through having to wait for the house to sell and buying my own and setting it up . I hope it can remain amicable for you , through various reasons my wife is turning slightly caustic , she is still trying to lay down conditions of how I should live . I feel she's finding it harder dealing with the loss of me and the control she could exert .

If it helps please PM me .

[Krisi]

elizabethamy, I don't want to sound blunt and uncaring, but you are thinking only about your self and not your wife or marriage. Your wife married what she thought was a man and now you want to become a woman. In some cases, this works out and the marriage stays together, but that's not likely to be the case with your marriage. Unlike cancer or a heart attack, in her mind, you are making a selfish choice here. You may not understand her feelings but they are real to her.

It seems you have a choice to make; go ahead with your transition or "be a man" and save your marriage.

I won't try to tell you which choice to make but I think it's unfair to call your wife "transphobic" or anything else. She feels that you have betrayed her. In many ways, you have.

[elizabethamy]

My definition of "transphobic"

Phobia is a fear, not a hatred. My wife is afraid of the whole transgender thing. Because it's me she can't bear to look at it on TV or in real life. She doesn't hate trans people. She doesn't hate me, though she is angry right now. This is just too painful for her to deal with anything about gender issues. Honestly, I think pure cisgender people have a hard time understanding this because they have never once thought about why they are in the body they have. So I get it, and I also get that this is worse, weirder, more publicly visible than leaving her for another woman or even coming out as gay. That attitude, and my obliviousness to what was wrong with me my whole life, are artifacts of a generation that won't be the case with younger people going forward. They'll know what it is and they'll just deal with it when they're still young. I realize that I'm inflicting pain here. That's what makes it hard.

Maybe she will climb down from her stance that once I said the words, "The gender thing never went away and I have to deal with it," our marriage was over and that we have to sell the house. I would stay married, but not under the condition that I do nothing for the rest of my life to address my gender dysphoria. I told her that after some exploration and therapy and medication it might turn out that I don't transition and that we could go on as before, but she's not going to go along with that or even believe it's a possibility, and thus it's her choice to split up immediately, which I understand.

Can a person who knows what they have to do to find their true self be called selfish for doing it?

elizabethamy

[Teresa]

Krisi,
It's gone too far for Elizabeth, I know exactly the situation she's in, once that decision was made as far as my wife and I were concerned it became easier , we both saw it as the right thing to do . Tossing around the selfish label helps no one when it's reached this stage , it's more of a decision to man up and follow it through rather than man up to prolong the agony .

Elizabeth has the right to live her life on her terms as well as the wife , once both parties can see this it can and must happen. My children haven't taken sides or put the blame on anyone , what they think or say behind my back doesn't bother me because it's not going to change me or the situation . Elizabeth hasn't mentioned that point as far as I'm aware .We may be husbands but we are not possessions to be picked up and put down by someone else , too many men appear to fall into this trap to appease their wives/partners, are they happy ? I would think 50/50 are not !

I'm afraid we encounter this problem because of DADT, OK so we may think or say our partner is transphobic I would say that statement is usually true otherwise we wouldn't have to suffer so much through being TG .

Elizabeth,
I have been saying this for sometime , women especially don't have this trait , if people can't relate to it they will never fully understand , we could argue they are the selfish ones for not trying to understand it. My sister in law was like that but now it's come to a separation she has had to acknowledge there is more to it than she realised but she is now accepting it and doesn't have a problem even not being concerned about seeing me , I think still that is more out of curiosity however .

I also wonder how different it might be if I had gone off and had an affair, I've often pointed out that if it wasn't for my CDing our marriage could have been over anyway through that issue , she's always known I'm not gay in fact she's accused more than once of being homophobic , the fact is I'm not it's just that I can't relate to a male to male relationship.

[Mirya]

Can a person who knows what they have to do to find their true self be called selfish for doing it?


You are being honest with your wife about how you feel and what you feel you need to do to move forward. You're finally putting aside the years of hiding, deception, and secrets, and making an effort to be completely honest with your wife. You have everything to lose and nothing promised to gain. And you're not manipulating her or guild-tripping her into staying with you as you start this journey. How is that selfish? If anything it was selfish for you to have waited this long to do this. But we can't change the past. We can only learn from our regrets and move forward.

[jentay1367]

elizabethamy, I don't want to sound blunt and uncaring, but you are thinking only about your self and not your wife or marriage. Your wife married what she thought was a man and now you want to become a woman. In some cases, this works out and the marriage stays together, but that's not likely to be the case with your marriage. Unlike cancer or a heart attack, in her mind, you are making a selfish choice here. You may not understand her feelings but they are real to her.

It seems you have a choice to make; go ahead with your transition or "be a man" and save your marriage.

I won't try to tell you which choice to make but I think it's unfair to call your wife "transphobic" or anything else. She feels that you have betrayed her. In many ways, you have.


All very "chivalrous". If I may make a point here. If Elizabeth has a "choice" to make, the decision should be a foregone conclusion. If manning up looks like an option, it should be the only choice.

[elizabethamy]

The choice I have is to continue suffering in order to keep the external things as they are. I realize that making the other choice, trying to figure out who I am and how I need to be in the world, is going to upset, even destroy, things as they are. Even with suffering for the rest of my life as the easy choice, I still think it is right for me to address these issues. I have told my wife that I am not trying to break up the marriage. We can stay together, but I'm going to see therapists and do what needs to be done, including hormones, dressing, whatever is needed until I feel okay about myself. Of course it's the symptoms: the clothes, the wig, the makeup, the shoes, the possible surgery -- all the physical manifestations of the exploration -- that she cannot tolerate.

Like most wives, she doesn't want a front row seat for this, and I totally don't blame her.

What I've learned since telling her the other night is that it is not one conversation, but the first of many. We talk every morning and every night. It's rough and I don't know if anything is improving except that we understand each other's feelings better than we did. We'll probably have to split up so that I can address my gender issues -- and I've told her that I am not going to declare the end result without a lot of counseling and exploration, but that I believe on some level that transition is likely. Of course, that's awful to say to her, but it's the point where telling her what I really think and feel is what it's all about.

e.a.

p.s. having a couple of people I can confide in, both online and in person, has meant everything these past few days. Strongly recommended to anyone facing this.

[jentay1367]

Elizabeth,
What you're doing is really hard and for a time it will get harder. When the fog clears you'll get a better idea of what's right for you. When that happens, it gets easier. It will come to you and you will realize your true path. If you are one of the lucky ones, your spouse will come along, if not, remember that, "There are more tears shed over answered prayers than over unanswered prayers" What we think we want may just be antithetical to the actual facts. If this truly is your path, the forces of the Universe and your powers of creative visualization will step in to accommodate you.
We have no idea what the future may bring, regardless. So listen to your heart, your soul and finally, your intellect. You seem like a very sentient and cautious person. Those traits will be incredibly invaluable on your path. No one can know what's right for you though everyone will proffer suggestions as if they're fact. The key is that if you truly follow your heart, the rest must fall into place...... Wherever that place may be. Good luck and be strong. You're gonna need both. J

[Devi SM]

Elizabeth, just in few days since you began this thread I've seen an evolution on your thinking. That gives the prompt to think that things can evolve too and is not good to do radical decisions.
As you said, you guys had been talking nights and mornings, if you keep doing it, and both do counseling, therapy individually and as couple, new horizons will appear. Sometimes things could look worse or better so don't give up or sing victories but if you honestly love each other, each of you will be willing to do concessions but if there's no love just selfishness, that's the opposite of love, will be the language and the end will be obvious and clear for both.
When I mention selfishness I don't mean that think in yourself or your wife thinking on herself is bad. It's a valid option but out of the marriage.
Marriage is a contract of love where both gives but receives too. There's no love if just one gives, even if she or he gives everything for love it the other doesn't give, that's selfishness and no love.

[Jenny22]

Elizabeth, I just read of your total reveal and wish you all the good fortune and happiness you wish and want. I wish the same for your wife.
I was just about to suggest to you that if it was possible, your wife might read this paper. Maybe it could better explain to her the whys of what you are experiencing.

http://avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

Dr. Vitale is female. She will do phone therapy, if your wife or you wish to do so.

http://www.avitale.com/Newclientinfo.htm

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Jenny, the second link suggests that Dr Vitale only offers consultation to Gender Dysphoric patients rather than to their partners.

Apparently the content of the first link has become slightly controversial. Discussion of the validity of the linked article is off topic for this thread and will be deleted.

[elizabethamy]

I’ve had Skype sessions with Dr Vitale a life ng time ago and they were very helpful. I wasn’t prepared to deal with what she told me then, but I definitely recommend her.

[~Emma D~]

Elizabeth, I’ve been reading this and other threads with interest.
I see much of myself in what you’ve written, in one form or another, so I’m not sure I can offer any words that will help the situation.
As I see it in life, we all have a journey, where it starts, and finishes is what we make of it, and whether we have the inner strength to make what can be difficult decisions or choices affecting ourselves or our families.
Best wishes, and I sincerely hope you are able to come through at the other end, without too much heartbreak, for either of you.

[elizabethamy]

Friends, this is so hard.

I mean I knew it would be, but to look your beautiful wife of nearly 40 years in the eye and confess that what's in your heart is the knowledge that you will need to fully transition, and that what's in her heart is that she has only wanted to spend the rest of her life with the man she married so many years ago -- well, it doesn't go easily from there. We laugh at "thoughts and prayers" sometimes, but I'll take all you've got right now. My gender therapist is wonderful, but to leave my wife on the outside of this freight train of gender change is understandably beyond awful for her.

She wants couples therapy, but I fear it's for the purpose -- probably unconsciously -- of trying to set boundaries and create compromises. It's really painful to tell her that we've already been there and done that, and that the dysphoria is not fed by such half-measures.

How will it all end? I hope much better than it's going right now! I'm open to suggestions especially about things like boundaries, couples therapy, etc.

My gender therapist told me of a client she had counseled who came to her in poor health at 60+ but desperate to live as long as she could as her real self. She only made it three years, but said frequently they were her best three years and worth all the trauma and suffering. This resonated powerfully with me and is something I try to hold onto when it just seems easier to cave in and agree for the good of the family not to do this, etc.

It's as if my true self is just over the river, and I'm trying so hard to jump across.

Thanks to everyone for all their support and help. You are making an enormous difference to me at a critical moment in my life.

elizabethamy

[Mirya]

Sorry to hear it's been so hard. Unfortunately it will continue to be hard and will get even harder. Much harder. Your persistent drive to transition regardless of these and upcoming difficulties will be proof to yourself that this transition is something that you really need, and not just a phase.

As for your wife, does she have the support network she needs to get through this? It's great that you have your gender therapist, and also this forum. But who does your wife have to confide in? This isn't something she can just talk about with her current friends. Maybe she will benefit by meeting other women who are or were in a similar situation as the wife of a transitioning MtF. To that end she may need your help to find and attend the support groups where these women are. Even if that means driving long distances to go there together.

[DaisyLawrence]

I am sorry for your situation. Sometimes you come to a crossroads in life, what to do, turn left, turn right or compromise and go straight on? Unfortunately I think your life may be at a T junction with no straight on. Turn left and fully transition, loose everything you love and live with the guilt of what you did to your wife after 40 years together in the twilight of her life, or turn right and constrain your crossdressing enough to stay in a loving happy relationship with your wife. No-one can advise you here which way to go. Only you can decide. Only you know if the need to transition is so great that you take that route along with all the consequences. I don't envy you your decision, just be sure to make the right one as some things can't be undone. Sorry but that where I think you are. If you can find a straight on, take it. Best wishes for your future whatever you decide.

[Teresa]

Elizabeth,
Can you confirm you are separating from you wife , I thought you mentioned you were but was that just being chewed over between the two of you ?

I can only tell it from my own recent experience that separation isn't the end of the World. We came to the decision because we knew it was right for both of us , it is amicable up to now and we have the full support of the family , the children are OK about it . OK I admit it's been easier our old home gave us sufficient to buy a new home for both of us and also give me enough spare to buy a rental property , I can exist off that and my pensions and be independant . I still can't answer the transition question but at least I'm free or mayber freer to take my time and think it through . All this is happening after 43 years of marriage , it is sad that I thought we might share our old age together but the damage was done and there's no going back on it . I try and not think about my age as drawback but a last opportunity to live a life I'm comfortable with .

I wonder if you should do the same thing and consider if separation is the first step to deal with and then sit back and think the transition issue over in you own time without the pressure of a wife/partner . Sometimes that pressure forces an issue beyond it's importance . I have to admit I'm a changed person since living alone, the contentment has balanced many issues out . I went out dressed and did my everyday jobs for the first time and felt totally at ease that would never have happened previously .

I do feel for you I know the decisions you have to face , once made it's like a millstone lifted off your shoulders , in the end it has to happen , your life matters too .

[Devi SM]

I would advice you to wait a bit. How long? Some months, may be a year and see. It would happen that the time softner her and agree to go with you the rest of your road. It would happen that you softer and decide to walk with her road, or the things are so powerful obvious and clear without fear, sadness that everybody would be real happy.
Believe me, we're evolving creatures. We adapt to almost everything.
In my case, wife always refuse to go out with me dressed but yesterday we enjoy a lovely day of two girlfriends shopping around, theater, dinner, the only think I really missed was to walk hanging her hand as always we do but at the end of the day, for some minutes we did it and we didn't care about the world...

[Megan G]

Elizabeth,

I feel for you but If you think it’s hard now just wait....as Mirya said it will get worse....but someday...it does get better. That is why those of us who have transitioned in the past say “don’t transition unless you absolutely have to!”

With that said i cannot give advice on couples therapy, boundaries or anything like that as if you are TS none of that will work and you will only find yourself in the same boat a few years down the road. What advice I will give you is to stop calling your wife transphobic and assuming her thoughts on couples therapy is to set boundaries etc.... She is living thru a nightmare, the person she married and loved for 40 years has just announced something that shook her marriage to the core. She is going to go thru many stages along the way (shock, anger, sadness, grief etc) and while she is doing that she is going to watch the man she loves slowly die and watch the rebirth of this new person who she does not know.....and before you say anything, yes you will change and i don’t mean physically.

The odds of your marriage surviving is low, it does happen, but is low. Eventually she will have to deal with the thoughts of after 40 years her hetero marriage will suddenly become a same sex union and that is most likely going to be the breaking point for her.

My ex and i stayed together for 5 years after my announcement to her. She helped me thru a lot and i would prob not be here today if it was not for her and my CIS friends. But she is not a lesbian and had to eventually face the fact that she needed more....and we separated...as best friends who still love each other and always will.

So what i am trying to say is yes it will look bad right now but in time, and with you giving her some space to process and deal with this new revelation you can come out the other end ok. You might not be married but you can still be in each other’s lives. But the main issue is you have resolved your GD and are free to finally live....

That’s if you need to transition. I wish you luck.....

[elizabethamy]

Thank you, Megan. I think it will work out, somehow. I'm going to stop journaling about it. We're moving toward understanding each other's problem and position quite a lot, recognizing that it might be too much to stay together. I will stop using the word "transphobic" which to me means "afraid of transgender/ism" (that's the literal meaning but clearly it means something much worse to most people).

We will have to find a way to be civil throughout all this and we have pledged to do so, after several days of being uncivil.

e.a.