What do you talk about with SO when dressed and together

[ClosetED]

For those of you who have a supportive woman, my wife asked what should we talk about when I am dressed as Ellen as opposed to me as drab.

She finally saw me last night with makeup and dressed and could not handle too much more, despite an earlier request to experience more. (This follows earlier in the day of asking me to move out and not return and she was moving to her parents and ending marriage.)

Are the conversation topics different? Do you talk fashion, look at magazines, have tea? How many just stay at home and interact and how many go out together? She is really trying and I don't have interaction experience and more fantasy to go by. I imagined Ellen as a girlfriend and drab as husband to her. But she thought I was too pretty to be her girlfriend - her friends dress plain and they take walks or have tea or sometimes shop but not in heels and dresses with pretty hair and makeup. She said I was the cheerleader type and that we would not have been friends. I tried to just touch her gently and she felt that was feminine. I kissed her cheek, with lipstick on, lightly and she felt that was feminine as well. She thought a man would choose me over her, despite my saying she was the sexy one - I was an illusion of makeup (with heavy beard stubble to try to make it easier on her)
So hoping to learn how to interact with a woman who is trying very hard to be supportive, but finding it very hard.
Thank you for any suggestions,
Hugs, Ellen

[Xxmilliexx]

In my case, the conversations and topics are pretty much the same. My so isn't really into the things that women are traditionally interested in, so our topics are pretty much compatible. I would like to add as well that she is also attracted to me while I'm Millie, but idk if she actually sees me as a different person.

[ClosetED]

So her question is, then why should I be dressed as Ellen to interact with her?
Hugs, Ellen

[bridget thronton]

I think the point is you would like to interact with her when dressed - I have the same conversations with my wife regardless of how I am dressed

[JustJoni]

My wife and I really don't much change our subjects of discussion. Well maybe a little if we are talking about something makeup or clothing oriented (like how is that different primer you bought working out, or which earrings do you prefer with this outfit). But after that, its just the normal conversations married folks have: kids, bills, health, shopping, etc. :)

Yes, we go out, and when out we discuss the folks around us at the restaurant, or the quality of the meal, or what we are doing after dinner, again like nearly every other conversation I have with my wife.

Now when we are out, especially at more mundane locations, she does most of the talking to waiters or service staff because my femme voice isn't all that convincing and she knows it bothers me to out myself so obviously.

[ClosetED]

My wife is turned off by me dressed. So she wonders why should I want to interact with her while dressed. And if I do it only alone, then am I too self-absorbed? I believe there are things that society says men can't/shouldn't do and Ellen is a way to move outside my usual self. So she says why the clothes to do that?

[Krea]

We talk about the same sort of things, however i am dressed. We might occassionally discuss what i am wearing (my wife is great at providing honest but constructive criticism) but mostly things are just like they always were.
Her viewpoint is that it's just clothes really. As long as i'm still the same person underneath, it doesn't worry her.

[Robertacd]

When I am dessed, we talk about the same mundane things we would talk about any other time.

I am still me, my interests, opinions, joys, fears, and desires do not change just because I am wearing a dress.

I have no problem talking about "girly things" in DRAB nor do I have a problem talking about "manly things" in DRAG.

Why would I be any different?

[Micki_Finn]

I’m in the same boat as most of the other girls here. We act just like we always do.

[char GG]

To answer the OP:
My husband and I talk about the same things we would always talk about, usually current events, politics, kids, where we want to eat, what movie to see, where is there the best parking in town, basic everyday stuff. We don't look at magazines or talk fashion, I don't even talk fashion with my GG friends. We never stay home when he's dressed. My husband is not a GG and no matter how he's dressed, he would not be interested in some of the things my GG friends talk about which is usually their relationships, not clothes, hair, nails or superficial things.

Xxmilliexx:
To put it nicely, don't get me started on "men's clothes" vs "women's clothes". I think we can agree that they are just "our" clothes and leave it at that. I do buy my clothes in the women's department, though.

Just an FYI, women had a huge clothing culture change between 1900's and 1920's. That was because women collectively banned together to change things. The changes continued throughout the century. If men really want to change the current culture, there may have to be the same type of shift but men will have to buck the system collectively. Not sure how many men you could get to start a movement clothing change for men.

[ClosetED]

I agree that I am the same person and there doesn't need to be a different conversation, but then she asks "So why do you need dress?" Saying it makes me peaceful and happy doesn't cut it with her.

[Robertacd]

Well the simple answer would be "Because this is who I am and what I like to wear.".

[Stephanie47]

So Ed, if your wife is totally repulsed seeing you en femme, although you say it makes you peaceful and happy, are you going to continue trying to interact with her en femme?

[ClosetED]

She has seen dozen of pictures of me dressed, and had even put them up on walls when she asked me to print them. She moved my clothes out of hiding into the bedroom closets. But did nothing to give me opportunity to wear them by not being alone, or by threats, or with her, except few months 1.5 yrs ago when she did try to accept and first saw pictures. She was upset I was going to have a 24 hour period to dressing in private, first since 4/2017. Threw a fit and later said I if I was planning on dressing, do it with her. She said she imagined would she love me if I was horribly disfigured from an accident- but this accident made me pretty and feminine instead. So wondered could she interact with me with that frame of mind. I hate hiding this part of me from her, but she needs to see if she can manage it. If I choose to go away to do it, she claims I am narcissistic and self-absorbed and shallow. I feel that I know her feelings and I am trying to not hurt her by exposing her to what I think she won't like, but makes me happy. If I wanted to take a 24 hour get away to go tuna fishing or a ballgame in another city, that's okay. But not to crossdress. Because she can't tell that to others.
Hugs, Ellen

[Rayleen]

just maybe, just maybe, ClosetED , you might be going too fast with her. She need to understand that you be a man for her too.

You have to treat her the way a man treat her lover first. Communicating to her your feeling so she understand your needs also.

Good luck.

Rayleen

[Jenny22]

Ed, it sounds like she is a yo-yo in her actions and statements. You know what I mean. Why the get out of the house argument and then the 180? There's so much going on between you two, but what do you think is the root cause?

[ClosetED]

Rayleen, I thought it best to keep the CDing out of the bed, but for 20 years we did hose as a fetishistic use. Then 8 years ago, when I wanted a little more, she stopped completely, and after 18 months of holding out, said I need to CD. She said do whatever you want, just leave me out of it. And so I experimented and Ellen became a reality and not a dream. And the genie is not sure if she can go back in the bottle - return to just fetishistic use of hose. So I think, since we have been together 29 years, we still care for each other, she tried her best to fill my needs, as best as I could describe. So many have been forced to do this alone, so I reached out to find out how to do it with another who does not like it, but is willing to try to tolerate it.

Root cause is love holding us together - her upbringing that CDing (and homosexuality) is morally wrong sends her running to escape. Her mother focused on her own beauty (and God), so my wife refuses to compete in beauty. She makes sure our daughters look better than she does at all times and she will be damned if she will compete to be prettier than her husband.
Ellen

[KatrinaK]

So a few thoughts....

I agree with the others that you're moving way too fast. You say that she asked you to leave and that she was going to end the marriage on the same day that you decided to dress for her for the first time. That timing seems highly emotionally motivated and poorly thought through.

You also say she's turned off by you dressed, but that you're looking to do it again. I have to ask if you're putting your own needs ahead of hers.

You also say that "she needs to see if she can manage it" which I believe is the wrong approach. She doesn't owe you anything with regards to your dressing and if you try to force it you may do irreparable harm to your relationship.

If you want to stay married to her, I strongly recommend that you start really thinking about prioritizing her needs. It also sound like you need to establish clear, mutually acceptable boundaries.

I cannot recommend the following enough for you: please go find a marriage counselor who specializes in LGBT / Gender issues.

We found ours here https://www.psychologytoday.com and she is amazing. AND SLOW DOWN.

[ClosetED]

She is the one asking me to do dress for her - I thought it a bad idea. She wanted to test herself possibly. And we have seen therapists - one who saw us separately for most sessions for a year, then each to a different one for another. She blames the therapist for encouraging me to experiment. I feel comfortable with who I am - a CDer who wants this only occasionally. Her issues are based on her upbringing-she wants me to do it NEVER EVER. So how do you come up with mutually acceptable boundaries? I thought my going a way for 24 hours once in 1.5 years was reasonable, delayed several times by things she scheduled without asking me if I had plans. She didn't think the 1 day was reasonable. I have dressed for up to a few hours in that time, but always rushed to do it and undo it. I wanted a day to do my nails and enjoy the process. She wants a second place to live and we put in bid, to make her happy. I put her needs almost always above mine. But what makes me happy is not her priority.

[AllieSF]

I don't know, but I see that she is asking a lot of direct questions, most of which should and can be answered simply and honestly as they relate to why you do what you do. Be consistent in your answers. Don't get frustrated when she asks the same questions over and over. I think that she may be fighting an internal battle as to how much to accept you and what you like to do, as you. She sounds like she may be trying to balance religious beliefs, her church's as well as her own. All that to me is much better than a strict DADT situation. Go slow and answer her questions and encourage her to always ask whatever she needs to know. She may be closer than you think from a more stable position where she may be able to tolerate and maybe even accept that what is, actually is and really is not as bad as she originally thought. I also second the recommendation for more counseling now because she is at least asking about what you do. Hopefully, that should help her get more out of counseling than before. Good luck.

[Leslie Langford]

I hate to break it to you, ED, but from your description, your wife sounds VERY conflicted about your crossdressing...one minute, she wants to see a rendition of "girl" you for curiosity's sake (but not too much, as that would be overwhelming), and the next minute she wants you to either move out and/or she will move in with her parents and end the marriage.

As for her friends, clearly they are unassuming Plain Janes and she likes it that way. En femme, you remind her of the "cheerleader type", and that is not her type even if you were a GG yourself, so clearly that is a non-starter on either level.

ED, you DO realize in your heart of hearts that any thought of you becoming a "girlfriend" to your wife when in female mode is a total pipe dream, and you are NEVER going to fit that square peg into that particular round hole. All you are doing by your wishful thinking is setting both you and your wife up for a perpetual rollercoaster ride that benefits no one. In my particular case, it is DADT all the way with a dose of hostility thrown in from time to time for good measure, so I know exactly where I stand and I govern myself accordingly. "Girlfriend" to my wife? Ain't gonna happen - no how, no way.

My suggestion is to either go back into the closet, let your wife socialize with gal pals of her own choosing and who are like-minded and call it a day, or else if you do need external validation of your crossdressing, either find an accepting GG BFF with whom you can have a platonic friendship or join a local crossdressers support group that you would feel comfortable becoming involved with.

[ClosetED]

I realize having her a GF is not likely to work. So I asked what kind of relationship have other found workable? Just being the husband in a dress and makeup and go about business as usual? And if wife is plain jane and CDer wants to be more fashionable, is that possible? I was fine being in the closet and then going off to the hotel as son is still around. I went to local support group 3 times and she was upset at that - I am risking her standing in the community. She grew up feeling like 'The Glass Castle' - embarrassed by parents who fought, yelled, police came, mother openly trying to convert people who didn't want to - like a rabbi. So she is worried that my being here is risking her reputation. And being seen dressed driving to meeting at night after dark was just too risky the 1time I did it. And the police might arrest me for having women's clothes in the car. So I would be willing to seek affirmation elsewhere than her, but she wants me to stay in the house, so it is only her who can provide any affirmation or interaction.
Yes she is very conflicted and also very controlling.
Hugs, Ellen

[DaisyLawrence]

I thought my going a way for 24 hours once in 1.5 years was reasonable, delayed several times by things she scheduled without asking me if I had plans. She didn't think the 1 day was reasonable. I have dressed for up to a few hours in that time, but always rushed to do it and undo it. I wanted a day to do my nails and enjoy the process. She wants a second place to live and we put in bid, to make her happy. I put her needs almost always above mine. But what makes me happy is not her priority.

Oh dear. A marraige made in heaven this is not. Crossdressing is the least of the problems here. Sorry but that's the truth of it.

[KatrinaK]

Ellen, I read through some of your other posts and this isn’t the first time she’s threatened you with divorce if you don’t stop dressing. I get a clear impression that despite what she may occasionally say, she doesn’t accept or tolerate your dressing in any way. Am I correct in assuming that she would like you to stop, forget about it and never speak of it again?

I think we all know that’s not likely to happen.

I’m going to change my previous advice of a couples counselor who specializes in the area to some one on one counseling with a specialist in gender issues. I think you need to figure out what’s best for you. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle and self-repression is the reason we as a group have the highest suicide rate of any discernible population. I’m very sorry you’re in this position, it is not enviable. I really think you need to do some open minded soul searching about what you need to be happy, and what you may need to give up in order to get it.

Also, what country do you live in where you’re concerned about being arrested for having women’s clothes in the car?

[ClosetED]

Yes, she says I should stop forever, but she also says she can never get the image of Ellen out of her head no matter how masculine i look at the moment. I tried growing beard for 3 months. She will often say things, then claim that was in the past, but then hold me to things I have said in the past. And I try to be honest - I don't think the desire will ever go away and denying it makes it worse. I tried to suggest she stroke my male ego with her wearing lingerie as one option and me wearing male sexy bedtime costumes and have her take pictures but she won't. I tried to offer her boudoir photography done by women, hoping to boost her self-image -refuses. I did go to a 1:1 with someone who sees many gender issues.
We are in USA - she just thinks that crazy way

[Rollermiss]

When dressed I talk to my SO like I always talk to her. About work( both of ours), our girls, same as every married couple does every day.

Kelsey

[Steph_CD_62]

With my wife being supportive but not wanting to get involved with my dressing I can give you what we talk about.

Most of the time it is the same boring things. Occasionally she will make a comment if she likes what I am wearing but that is the end of the girly talk.

[biancabellelover]

I only started on this journey a bit over 18 months ago, and the only thing that my CD’ing has changed is that we talk about fashion in more depth than we used to. We also talk more about gender issues than before, as I gain greater insights.

We have these conversations whether I’m dressed or not.

I hesitate to give advice, as I’m no way qualified. I hope that you find some way to make it work.

Michelle.

[Nikki.]

1. Don’t project how you wish to present in the world on to your wife. Her sense of style and esthetic is well established and defines in part how she wishes the world to see and interact with her. Social status is very important to her, and how she presents is a part of that. Her friends are similar it sounds. Once you accept you’re projecting on to her how you wish you could be and stop doing that, accepting her for her, there might be a reduction in negative feelings from her about ellen. If you’re bagging on her for not dressing how you perceive sexy, imagine how that feels to her, and how it might make her react. Of course Ellen needs time to dress and be free, so....

2. Joining a tg support group and going to events is very safe and reasonable for you to do. It keeps Ellen dadt, the risk of getting outed is minimal, and you get to be pretty for a few hours and make friends who get it. You can create an uber account in Ellen’s name, rent a room at a hotel, and uber to events. even better if events are held in a hotel. Other event attendees get the need for discretion for some.

3. I’ve read enough of your posts over the years I’ve been on here to conclude cd’ing is in your hard wiring, and you are miserable without an outlet. Anne Vitale calls it gender expression anxiety disorder and I believe she’s onto something. Acknowledge your wife’s fear of the destruction of her social standing, a legitimate but extremely unlikely outcome, promise and work to mitigate the risk, and hopefully you can come to a compromise that works for you both. Good luck.

Edit: I didn’t answer your question. We interact the same as we do if I’m presenting male. But then I just want to live my same old life, but as a woman ;)

[confused_cathreen]

Ellen, I think you are asking for something that doesn't exist. The magical conversation topic that will give your wife a lobotomy. You think there is something that GGs must talk about that makes them recognise it as a safe environment to be in and that would make her more comfortable to be around you while you are dressed. There is no such thing. I am closer in way of thinking to your wife than I am to the supportive SOs so I can give you my opinion and throw it away if you wish. You tried to be physical with your wife by touching her while you were dressed and wearing make up. You could be talking about the most interesting subject in the world for me and if you would have touched me at that point, I would have to fight the urge to punch you. I am being totally honest here. I would suggest you concentrate on introducing small elements in slower-that-slow pace and refuse point blank to appear fully dressed again in front of her. In my mind, this took you back miles in terms of mental image. If she is anything like me, seeing your partner and perceiving him as a female gf would be the death of the sexual feelings, which is one step away from completely pulling away from the hetero relationship. As I said, just my opinion, so please take it with a pinch of salt. Take comfort that at least she is trying to face her fear and not reject your relationship, which is not the same as her rejecting your crossdressing. Good luck :)

[ClosetED]

It certainly sounds like the conversations don't really change which supports my statement to her - I am just one person- a single coin with 2 faces. I guess she is struggling how to act toward each different face. And why would I want to show the other face when I am one person. I suppose it comes done to the unanswered but always asked question of why do we crossdress?
I have been to a local group that has it's own building and a place to change there, so no need to rent a hotel room and Uber. Yes, the leader who shows up early has seen the drab me and also the people who see me leave, but they are all TG. Going to that or the other local support group social events would be fine, but she needs to be okay with that- allay her fears.
When she asked me to come to bed fully as Ellen, I thought it a bad idea. I felt 'husband in bed', 'Ellen occasionally and elsewhere'. She wondered what it would be like touching my long wig or the hair touching her elsewhere, her chest against my padded bra, if I had long fingernails, would it hurt her. Lipstick on her body. So she was pushing her limits. I suggested just the wig, or just lipstick. She wanted it all. I didn't do any nail polish as it had gotten to 11:30 at night and so I did a quick 20 minute dress and makeup. I trimmed my beard down with trimmer and did not shave, hoping to soften the transformation and let me return to husband mode sooner. No further talk about it, but she asked I was still miserable and I said no. She showed so much love to put herself through that. I did but her several bouquets of flowers, and a nice card, and her favorite treat earlier before she did this, just offering to do it was very loving.
Hugs, Ellen

[Lea]

My wife is supportive. When I am dressed she may mention that the outfit looks nice or comment on my makeup. Besides that the conversation topics stay the same.
While the topics stay the same they sometimes go a different direction. I try not to interrupt her as much and I will offer suggestions but I try not to jump in and solve the problem.
The one disappointment to me is she will never call me by me female name. She helped pick out the name and will use it when she ask does Lea need anything? The other nice thing is that in drab she really does not like me in her kitchen. Dressed she has been teaching me to cook.

[Teresa]

Ellen,
It would have been lovely to have experienced that situation how different it might have all been , how I just wanted to sahre my CDing with my wife , I don't mean purely sexually but on everylevel , to have been a companion as when dressed . I still can't see why it couldn't have happened , OK for those few hours I might not have appeared like a husband but we could have been happy once that hurdle was crossed .

For me it's never going to happen , well perhaps I shouldn't say never , who knows what is round the corner ?

[ClosetED]

I also noticed when I was at the support group, I listened more and did not try to push my opinions as much as drab me would. When I write here, I think I also take the other person's feelings into consideration. That is something that can be easily transferred over to drab time, but to have noticed it and thought about it took Ellen time.

Lea, having the SO call you by your femme name can seem like she agrees you are 2 different people. It makes sense to have it - just like a coin has a head and a tail label - but we call it quarter or dime. it is a useful pronoun to them to distinguish features of just one side of you, but prefer to call you by the one name they were first given by you.
Hugs, Ellen

[Robertacd]

Lea, having the SO call you by your femme name can seem like she agrees you are 2 different people.

But what if you are not "two different people"?

I am not two different people, there is not "a woman living inside me", as I said before I am me, wearing a dress or wearing a tuxedo does not change who I am or how I feel about anything.

[Tracii G]

Why would you think you have to talk about girl stuff?
Most women I have been out with enfemme just talk about normal things we always talk about.
The only thing different is the clothes you are wearing and you have on make up. Still the same person.

[char GG]

Hi ClosetEd,
I have no problem calling other CDers in my husband’s support group by their girl name but I usually don’t know them in any other setting or by any other name.

My husband is a different story. I have known him a long loooooong time. I make an huge effort to call him by his girl name in front of the people in his group. One on one, I never call him by his girl name. It really reminds me of when I was in first grade and the kids on the playground pretended to be people from stories and wanted to be called by their storybook name (I remember my pretend name was Sue). Anyway, my point is that if you can get some acceptance for some type of CD activity, just go with it and don’t expect a fantasy to happen right away. As others have suggested, slow it down. It sounds like a lot of internal conflict in her and she is trying but not fully on board. Good luck to both of you.

[NancySue]

We talk like we always do. She knows I like her opinion about what I’m wearing. She has such a nice, feminine way of telling me how I look without it coming off as criticism. She immediately knows when I’m wearing something new. She liked my top from Talbots, so I ordered one in her size. She loves it. We enjoy watching game shows. I “check” occasionally to be sure everything is OK. Sometimes, she’ll say, “they’re only clothes”, I just smile.

[leannejacobs]

I would say the topic of conversation remains the same as any other time, there may be the odd comment about my outfit, usually in fun, she'll say I look like a tart lol, her best friend also says this too, also in fun, I do dress a little tarty in the house.
Her friend has requested a more casual look the next time she visits, again said in fun, both my wife and her friend are jeans and a sweater types when casual, I will of course oblige, I think my figure in my tarty outfits make them jealous lol

[Pat]

Leanne -- many a truth is spoke in jest. It's like listening to opera -- if you hear the same line spoken more than once, pay attention; it's important.

[ClosetED]

She is much calmer and happier and put a women's necklace loaded with rhinestones on me last night. She said she bought it for both of us to wear.
When we took a walk, she asked about my need to be affirmed and that having posted pictures on this site to be seen by men, what does that say about me?
I pointed out she looks at clothes catalogs and looks at women and those women know other women will look at them. To me, both know the audience (M or F) will appreciate the look (or feel it is not for them) and not be trying to attract sexual responses, which may be the purpose of Penthouse models or possibly Victoria Secrets.
I do not feel my drab self is handsome (and as teen felt worse) but now at my age I am better than most my age. She does not feel sexy in her mind and has concerns about trying to be sexy as that might lead to trouble (?unwanted passes), so she does not to be sexy all the time.
So she wants me to try to work as hard to look handsome as I did to create Ellen. I felt that the tools available to create Ellen (makeup,wigs, padding,etc) are not available to make a man handsome. A stronger jawline. I can buy clothes but do they really make a man handsome? My hair is starting to thin and show silver, and yes I could get Rogaine or transplants if worse or a toupee. She thought a beard would create the better jawline. I have a large nose. I could get a nose job. But even a handsome man is not likely to get any verbal affirmation from society. So I hope to get her to stroke my ego and I to stroke hers, to smooth things out. Will that reduce desire to dress? Who knows?

Hugs, Ellen

[alwayshave]

I didn't know we should be talking about something else. We have our usual banter.

[Jaylyn]

Ed my wife was all for me doing my thing but it seemed after a couple years she decided she didn't want much to do with it. She was very supportive but then just changed or became complacent about my dressing. Just the other night though she was getting ready for bed after we had been out to eat, she was feeling frisky and reapplied her red lipstick and asked if I wanted some also. ( she knows I love it ), I said yes so she applied the red to my lips also and we kissed. I loved it but couldn't enjoy it like I would have liked too. It's hard to figure out wives sometimes. We did have a great night talking and enjoying the night.
Next day she was back to DADT, like the night before never happened. My advice is just hang in there.

[Devi SM]

Ellen, this a very interesting thread and for sake of the time I'll post my answer without reading all others first.
Wife has tried to be nice and supportive but was so afraid of going out with me dressed.
We've done I think around 5 times. All the time I ask her to give me tips in how to walk and things like that. I ask her what to dress and find out the same as you say. We are like adolescent, teenager girls and wear to sexy or provocative but wives usually don't do that in normal days, so I follow her instructions and several times I wear how she wants so we look similar as friends. What we talk? I know she doesn't feel 100% comfortable so I don't push my mannerisms too much. Just the needed, as my voice as well.
When at home I'm the same but she finds out that dressed my walk and mannerisms are more naturally feminine so that's the same I do in public.
After all these times out she confesses me that doesn't feel comfortable and is always scared that someone could recognize me (I use my own hair) so we haven't been out together for more that 2 months and I don't know when we'll do it again. That gets me sad because she knows I love sharing all my experiences with her.
In a couple of weeks she's travelling overseas so she knows I'm going out to climbing at night, to the beach on weekends, probably Vegas and 100% time dressed.
Conversations are always the same. We love watch other women and talk about make up, dresses etc, always a women chat even with me in male mode.

[Alice_2014_B]

The few times the wife and I have been out with me dolled up didn't involve much talking, just visiting a few stores.
:)