Normal

[Sweet Susan]

xxx

[JoanneThomas]

Susan--
I quite agree that this movie was extremely sympathetic toward the plight of the transexual. Tom Wilkinson did a remarkable job in the role as Roy / Ruth. The real honors go to Jessica Lange, i believe, as the wife who over the year of the movie learned so much about the real love she had for her husband.
I was blessed last year to be able to play the part of Roy in the stage version (called 'Looking for Normal'). Though I never came out to my cast mates as TG, I'm sure there were some who felt I fit in a little too well to the part. Many dear friends from our local support group were able to attend the show while dressed and were welcomed warmly by cast and crew.
The HBO movie (and play) was based on a real life couple from Iowa, I believe, who were still together the last I heard--still having difficulty finding a church home.
Another remarkably sympathetic movie is based on the life of Calpernia Addams and called 'Soldier's Girl'--the actors in it are nothing short of fantastic.

[Sweet Susan]

Joanne,
Thanks for the reply on my post. I was beginning to wonder if anybody was willing to talk about something other than how often they wear panties.

I am so glad that you told me about your experience in the play. I did not know that Looking for Normal and Normal were the same story. I thought Normal was a very good look into how transgender issues can affect a family. Jessica Lange was nothing short of brilliant in her portrayal of a wife with nowhere to turn. The scene where they are in the basement and she tells him she wants her husband back is so moving. I was left dumbstruck. It was so realistic. I actually thought Roy/Ruth was rather selfish, but then again, I'm not a transexual, and I don't want to become a woman. So, what do I know.

I saw Soldier's Girl about six months ago, and I agree that it is very well done. In fact, I thought that it was great. I'm just really glad to see the film industry making some good, serious movies about transgender issues instead of the comedies that don't do much more than poke fun.

[kittypw GG]

I thought the movie was done extremely well and the fact that it made me really uncomfortable proved it. I watched it during my husbands period of gender confusion and it sort of helped cement for me what my choice would be if I were faced with this situation. I can understand the plight of someone who wants to be a women but I could not stay married. Best friend would be all that I could muster. I loved the scene where she wanted to take one last look at his genitalia the night before surgery. I wanted to cry and did. Kitty

[Cathy Anderson]

I thought the movie sucked. :p

First, why is Jessica Lange messing around with a nerd like him when she should be with me :)

Second, Mr. Wilkinson didn't even see fit to trim his eyebrows for the part.

No, really--I thought the movie just portrayed the usual stereotypes. Very sentimental. But it didn't strike me as revealing or thought-provoking in any way. Your mileage may vary.

Cathy

[livy_m_b]

It's been some time since I've watched the film (tho I have a copy among my other t films), but I have a few recollections. My first impression was that Tom Wilkinson's character was too 2-dimensional, not much real development - basically the character has a path and doesn't really deviate from it. Upon reflection, that's probably the way most ts's seem to their families - their real lives may be going on elsewhere - in their minds and on other scenes. Jessica Lange's character on the other hand was anything but 2-dimensional - the story was really about her. She progressed from shock to acceptance to rejection to acceptance again in a very believable way - she was the most sympathetic of all the characters. Some of the minor scenes were true to life - like where Tom's supervisor "offers his services" and Jessica at first accepts then recoils.

Overall, it didn't leave me with a very good feeling about ts's (and just in case it's not clear, that's the end of the spectrum I tend to fall on). I've tried in the past on a different forum to start threads about the two-dimensional aspects of many ts lives as represented by bios of transitioning and have been soundly b****slapped for it, so won't try that again for a while - but why is that the case? I don't find us as a group very sympathetic characters except in the remote sense of having the gd-problem.

It was a very good film - I will watch it again sometime. On a related topic "Different for Girls" is still very high on my list, as is the Crying Game for reasons we can discuss if anyone is interested. Friday I saw TransAmerica and am still processing it - but thought some of the scenes were wonderful and that Felicity Huffman did a great job.

Films do a great job of showing aspects of our lives that really are not well shown any other way. Although cd's have My Husband Betty as a sympathetic portrayal, I don't know of an equivalent sympathetic portrayal of a ts by a spouse or ex-spouse. There may be some out there. Sorry for the ramble.

[ChristineRenee]

I remember watching this film sometime ago. Jessica Lange did give an amazing performance too as I recall. I haven't seen TransAmerica yet but want to as I have heard that Felicity Huffman's performance is top notch. Different for Girls and The Crying Game were both fine films as well. I'm hoping we will see more movies such as TransAmerica come out in the future. It can only help to bring some positive attention to our community and our struggle for acceptance.:thumbsup:;)

[Lauren Richards]

Susan,
It has been a while since I saw the movie, but I thought it was well done. Your observation of how the movie gave you another view of how your actions effect your wife was important. I don't think you have to be on the TS path to see how being a different as we are has a ripple effect. I think any time we see our actions thur another lens it helps us to understand who we are, and helps us be better individuals.

Even with all the posts about panties and such, there are still enough of every type of post to keep it interesting. Sometimes it takes a finer filter to find them..so keep writing

Lauren

[JoanneThomas]

Susan--

I think you hit it right on the head when you said that the character Roy was selfish. In so many ways we, the transgendered, are selfish--so often thinking only of ourselves in our push to be who we really are--something we are definitely entitled to be.

Jessica Lange portrayed it so well as she struggled with her love for her mate--her 'heart'-- as the line goes. She calls Roy on his selfishness by saying that she has given him her youth, his children--everything, in other words. But then she also realizes that if she thinks hard enough about it, he has done the same for her--and so she helps him choose clothes to buy.

As you said, her emotional outburst in the laundry where she wails that she 'just wants her husband back' is so moving--this show is really about the ripples that we all make in others lives as we move ahead on a day to day basis.

The movie was not about TS or TG really--it was about the human drama. I have seen so many comments that the movie (or play) did not realistically portray the TS experience that I just want to scream--'it's not all about US! It's about others that know us and love us and care for and about us'. The movie and play show a one year span of time when Roy determines that he is, in fact, a woman in a man's body up until the time he undergoes the reassignment surgery--and that is only 12 months! He is portrayed as never having dressed up as a woman before (his 'bad drag' scene is wonderful!) and has full breasts nearly as large as his wifes by the end of the year. It's a movie is all it is.

The play version is better with the addition of a character--Roy's Grandmother Ruth--who is seen in flashbacks as she lived out her life in France, dressing as a man a la Marlene Dietrich. Ruth tells the story of what Roy will go through as he struggles to live his life as the woman he believes himself to be. Her prayer for him is to be convincing enough as a woman to not be beat up or killed for walking to the store in a dress.

I can honestly say I learned more about my TG tendencies with that show than in all my years of living (I'm 50+)--I went to the audition knowing my wife was not thrilled with the prospect of me playing the role--I did it for all the wrong reasons--what fun it would be to portray a woman on stage! The reality was quick changes and the raw emotions that had to be played sucked the normal thrill of being dressed right out of it. But every night I was surprised by the everyday theatergoers that were moved to tears by the love shown by Irma for Roy / Ruth in such a difficult situation. I had a chance to put out brochures from our CD / TG / TS support group (EON) and there were many questions about them. I was not entirely forthcoming as I simply stated that I was introduced to the members of the group as part of the role--a cop out, I know--but the secret has been kept for so long, it's hard to let it go.

Susan--I'm sorry if I have hijacked your thread--I have wondered if others shared my enthusiasm for the movie--I'm pleased to have found a kindred soul.

Thank you --Joanne Thomas

[Sweet Susan]

Joanne,
Please don't worry about high-jacking anything! You had some wonderful and insightful comments to add to the discussion, which is what good threads are all about.

Cathy,
I found it interesting that you thought the movie sucked. While I agree that Tom Wilkinson should have trimmed his eyebrows, a real over-sight by the make-up crew, I think, I still thought that the film's message carried the movie. I also didn't think the movie was full of stereo-types, though I might have missed that. I'll watch it again, and see what I think. I guess, now that I think about it, the daughter's immediate acceptance to it was rather stereo-typically portrayed, although I thought the son's reaction was rather realistic and bit complex. He certainly shocked me when he made fun of his father in front of his working mates.

I guess the biggest problem I had with Normal was that it moved too quickly. Even Roy's admission to his church pastor that he wanted to become a woman just kind of flopped out so quickly. I also thought it rather naive to believe that Christian preacher is going to actually give any realistic solace to such a widely abhorred decision.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful responses. Have a great day!
Susan

[HaleyPink2000]

Is it only on HBO? I know this might be a dumb question, but I don't get HBO.

Thanks!!!

[kittypw GG]

It is out on video and you can rent a copy at you local video rental store.
Kitty

[joanlynn28]

Saw the movie while in hospital for therapy, my therapist rented it for me. For me I am in the same position as Tom's Wilkerson's character in the movie. I do similar work and would probable get the same or similar treatment as he did. Then again not, I live out in Southern California and I have found that people are very open and excepting nowadays. This movie is a mirror image of my life. And yes I am seriously exploring the transition aspects of my condition. Have talked to a few TS's about it. Found out that I probably would not need that much work to get it done, thin build, no adam's apple, fairly high voice, get mistaken for a woman on the phone all the time. Several TS's commented that I was on HRT(soft skin, clear complection) I am not on hormones. I am surprised that I passed, I just started going out enfemme, real confidence builder. Next stop clothes shopping in person. For your info my therapist rented "Normal" from Netflix.

[Cathy Anderson]

Hi Susan,

Thanks for your comments. I was being more than a little flip when I said I thought the movie "sucked."

But I do have a serious concern that applies in general:

It's that I see a kind of feedback loop.

1. To insure a wide audience, movies appeal to popular stereotypes.
2. Movies influence and help shape popular stereotypes.

For this reason, even though we might start out with a wide diversity of opinions, over time one sees a tendency for opinions to coalesce into a narrow point of view.

That is the case with TS. We have seen several recent movies that take the view that basically a person who believes themselves a TS is (1) actually a woman/man trapped in a man's/woman's body; (2) the correct solution is to change public gender role; and (3) any practical consideration such as, say, how well the person will function/pass in a changed role is irrelevant (as with the Wilkinson character).

I'm not saying any of the above are necessarily false. My concern, rather, is that we not reach a point where people simply do not question them.

People imitate what they see in the movies. For every "true TS" who sees the movie and is influenced, I would not be surprised if there are many more who are *not* TS, but are influenced to imitate the Wilkinson character.

In short, I have to ask: why do we never see a movie about, say, a man who thinks he's a TS, but then comes to the realization that he's not? Or a man who *is* TS, but, say, finds some creative new solution to the whole thing.

Aside from having babies, there's nothing of consequence a woman can do that a man can't. And there's certainly nothing a post-op TS can do that a non-op transgendered man can do.

The Wilkinson character was completely selfish, and placed all the burden of adjustment on the Lange character. How fair or realistic or that? Why should we believe that she can make a huge compromise, and be able to find happiness despite it, while he could not?

Was there a scene that showed him really thinking about this in a mature and serious way, asking himself the quesion: can I, do I really want to put her (Lange) through this? No, it was all, "boo hoo--*I'm* so unhappy."

I don't rule out that there might be some married men who are genuinely gender dysphoric, TS, and/or interesexed. And perhaps such a man can only find any real degree of happiness by changing sex. But Wilkinson did not convey this to me.

Cathy

[livy_m_b]

Hi Susan,

In short, I have to ask: why do we never see a movie about, say, a man who thinks he's a TS, but then comes to the realization that he's not? Or a man who *is* TS, but, say, finds some creative new solution to the whole thing.

Cathy

Some comments:

1. Why not a story about a cd who comes to believe she's really ts? Or about a post-op ts who changes her mind? Or about a ts who thinks she's lesbian and then develops an attraction for men? Or a gay who thinks he's attracted to men, and then finds he's still in love with his once wife? The dramatic possibilities are endless - and better than science fiction since they really occur.

2. Why don't you write some of the stories yourself?

3. No story is completely realistic - there are always assumptions, characters whose development is sacrificed to make room for the development of others, etc. That's why every story at some point or another calls for the "willing suspension of disbelief" - but for some of us in some stories, the point at which belief is to be suspended is one for which we are unwilling. This doesn't have to be a defect in the story or in the individual - it's just the way things are.

4. I still think it was a remarkable achievement in capturing as much as it did of Irma's experience.

[Leigh Davis]

I saw the movie when it first aired on HBO. All I can remember was that I expected a lot more. I thought it could have been a miniseries. Everything wrapped up too quickly.
I have seen several reality pieces on MSNBC, Discovery, Health Channel, etc. that have been more moving to me. There, real people are interviewed about their real feelings. And it is tough to see a wife admit she hates losing her husband. Gaining a "girl friend" is not why or how she fell in love with her mate.

Films (and documentarys) like this are good though to open up and keep open lines of dialogue with SO's.

On the other hand why can't there be a movie about crossdressing? Is there not enough "conflict" there for a marketable film?

:straightface:

[ginafaye]

i thought where roy gave away all his power tools was a little over the top......