A very challenging conversation

[KatrinaK]

Okay, warning, this isn’t my usual light hearted fare...

I was visiting my brother and his family at their cottage, and one of his friends comes to visit for the night. Typical dinner, decent conversation. Then over desert, the ladies start chatting at one end of the table and my brother, this guy and I are chatting at the other end.

All of a sudden, a nice conversation turns into a hate fest on the trans community. These two are both “bros”, so my brother goes along and starts demeaning the “full on tranny” he used to work with. These two are going’s on about the “transgender agenda,” how kids aren’t really trans, just their parents are trying to be hip, then this douche starts going on about how “the genderfuid are the biggest freaks of them all.”

This is about where I really seriously contemplated punching this guy out. I’m not a violent person, but frankly if I was out to my family (I’m not, just my wife) but if I was out to them, I think I would have done it.

I was actually a little timid about defending our community based on the nature of the conversation, and the people involved, and risking outing myself.

I’m sitting here wearing my genderfluid pride necklace and I’m not sure if I deserve to wear it right now.

Then this idiot starts defending Harvey Weinstein, saying that he hopes all his accusers get sued into bankruptcy because they must have signed a contract exchanging sex for movie roles.

Am I crazy or did this person deserve to be punched in the face in front of his wife?

[Maria in heels]

Katrina....we can only control ourselves, and you did very well tonite! Yes, he definately sounds like a jerk and a biggot, and no matter how angry you are, don't let them force you to do something that you may regret, or more importantly, not want to do. You should be very proud of yourself for your self control

[Aunt Kelly]

No. Violence is unlikely to solve the problem you're looking to solve. It was not your house, so the obvious choice, showing the boor to the door, wasn't really an option. I think I'd have made it plain that I had no interest in being a part of such an ignorant hateful exchange, and retired. It was not worth outing yourself. Certainly not worth facing assault charges.

[Becky Blue]

I admire your restraint Katrina, its sad that in 2018 we still have so many Neanderthals amongst us

[KatrinaK]

Thanks Maria. I feel like the restraint I showed as positive. But I regret not finding a way to defend our community without outing myself. I told him right off on the Harvey Weinstein bit, then moved to the ladies end of the table for more civilized conversation. I feel like I could have done more (punching him not included)

[docrobbysherry]

Thanks for reminding me how boring and stupid conversations, "hanging with the guys", can be, Katrina.:doh:

Since most of my socializing is with GG's or trans now, I'd forgotten how much I DON'T MISS those get togethers!:straightface:

[KatrinaK]

Kelly, you’re 100% right. But in my dreams I decked him and then told him he just got beaten up by a “tranny” LOL

[Kimberly Adams]

Katrina,

I wouldn't take it personally. Just guy talk. What if the guy said hey I love the trans-gender community and think they should all be accepted? No guy will say it regardless of what they really think. Let it go. Harvey Weinstein is another story. I have yet to hear anyone defend this guy. On that topic I would engage. People that take advantage and harm others should rot in hell. Yeah I have some personal experience.

[KatrinaK]

Kimberly, I did engage on Harvey Weinstein and called him out so much that the ladies stopped their conversation and swung their heads around. I feel good about that. It’s people like this that create so many problems for the young trans kids in school. I feel like I met the guy whose trying to force trans girls into the boys room.

Hes a house builder and I kinda wanna find his company’s yelp page and paint the word bigot up and down it.

[CynthiaD]

You did just fine, Katrina. Ask yourself this: Is there anything you could have said or done, including punching him out, that would have changed his mind? I doubt it. So you did great.

[Karen's Secret]

People like that aren't worth your time and effort. There is nothing to be gained by getting into an argument and there is zero chance you'll change his point of view. It would have been better to just tell him you disagreed and that you preferred not to be part of the conversation. Then you could have joined the ladies or just left.

[Tracii G]

I try to let the idiots argue among themselves and not be part of their conversation.
That way if somebody is watching you are not one of the idiots.
You did OK and violence is only needed if someone is trying to take your life.

[Patience]

I understand why you feel bad. Sometimes words fail us just when we need them the most.

From your account, it doesn't sound like it was your brother who introduced the subject, so there's no reason for you to strain your relationship with him on account of another person's stupidity.

As for the boorish guy, well, you may not be able to reason with him yet, but if you're really interested, you can try to understand him. I wonder if this person might not be feeling he has a grievance, in that he believes his place of employment, by accomodating a transgendered person's needs is in fact giving that person an unfair advantage at work. Or -the horror- if the queer got a promotion and he didn't. That could set a guy off.

I'm not suggesting you follow up. Maybe the moment is gone. File for future reference.

[Rachelakld]

Tough one, personally I tend to stand up to people who hate on others who can't defend themselves, probably like saying "I suppose you think disabled are freaks to?" - to divert him and show how stupid he is. On the other hand, maybe your brother did work with a Trans who is not the sharpest tool in the shed, so he judges them all the same.

But for the sake of your relationship, probably best you stayed silent and probably mention to your brother in private, that you found his "bros views" ignorant and embarrassing

[Stephanie47]

Where I live the minimum charge against you for punching him in the face would be simple assault, a misdemeanor. It would go up from there depending upon his injuries. I've run into some of those situations/conversations and I do take them to task on their remarks. One does not have to identify as gay, lesbian, transgender, black, white, Latino, etc to defend any part of society. Frankly, we would have the conversation once because I flush those people down the toilet. I don't have a stomach for any of the crap you listened to. As far as dealing with a family member I'd shame his sorry ass right in front of anyone who was there. No holds barred. Nobody goes to jail for asserting First Amendment Right. I hope you lace into your brother.

[Bobbi46]

Don't be hard on yourself your self restraint was a commendation for you sadly there are two many bigots around and being bigots it would take steam hammer or more to change their pitiful little minds, there will always be people who will belittle us in general thankfully they are in a minority the best we can do is live mlife as we should do, try to ignore the uninformed and get on with life.

[Solange]

Your patience and diplomacy in the presence of such hurtful language is something you should be proud of. I think your timidity was based on a sound assessment of the risk vs. value of a confrontation.

Wear your necklace with pride. In fact go buy yourself a new soft, lacy and beautiful indulgence to go with it. Tuck yourself in, toss back your hair, and revel in the exquisite delight of being such a complex and amazing human.

Hugs girl! You did us proud by being the adult in the room.

Solange

[mbmeen12]

Two wrongs just does not make it right....You were right not to be over aggressive. Let me be clear, there will always be bias in human beings. Name one community that does not.....big hug to you KatrinaK

[Bobbi46]

A big plus in the retsraint and composure in the face of an unpleasant time and an example of how we should all be.

[Helen_Highwater]

Katrina,

While at the time I may have resisted telling the guy he was talking b*****ks I seriously doubt that afterwards I could have stopped myself from talking any sibling of mine to task over that conversation.

I'd had to ask, "Did you really believe that nonsense about Weinstein?" "If it'd been a daughter of yours who fell victim to a lowlife like him you'd say fair play to the guy?" "And does your wife know you think this way?"

Your brother is probably as wary as you of facing down that moron as your were at the time. It's not easy to initiate even verbal conflict in a social situation. Your brother may have felt that to oppose his friend might make him look the odd one out and have him labeled as a "queer lover" or some other demeaning title.

[Crissy 107]

You handled yourself very well under the circumstances. Like others said no way you could possibly change his closed mind and sometimes we have to let jerks be jerks and move on. Too bad you didn’t just start at the girls end of the table, definitely more fun.
Crissy

[Charlotte7]

Katrina, you absolutely did the right thing. Violence is never an answer, and outing yourself when you don't want to, or need to, is never an answer. When this kind of thing happens to me, I withdraw from the discussion and smile inwardly to myself, safe in the knowledge that, in the morning he will still be a bigot but, and I will be dressed as I want, and when I'm dressed as I want, then I will laugh at him, out loud.

[DIANEF]

A sad tale. This is why conversations with the male community holds so little interest for me.

[Happygirl!]

Katrina,
Probably many of us have been in similar situations listening to the hate rant by others. I agree with Traci about best not to argue with idiots. I also feel sorry for these people and suspect they have their own personal demons, and these outbursts are probably a reflection of their problems. But I would intervene if I ever saw someone verbally abusing a TG person (inside I laugh about them not knowing about my secret; ha, we are slowly taking over the world).
HG

[alwayshave]

Katrina, some times showing restraint is the right move. The other issue was your wife was there, which means you have to consider her feelings.

[Vale]

Katrina - you did well to restrain yourself.0

In similar circumstances I have had some success acting bored for a few minutes and then introducing a more positive topic.

Val

[ClosetED]

You did right, to not embarrass yourself and wife. It was smarter to focus on Harvey Weinstein as the easier target to support. One move could have been to pull the women into his conversation and let them also knock his views.
Hugs, Ellen

[Beverley Sims]

I call your action the Judas Iscariot principle, I have denied things three times before the **** crows as well.

It is often better to keep the peace and just say umm yes and let the tirade continue.

It is not your belief and you have no reason to defend it unless you are threatened.

I know it hurts and sometimes badly, it is better to have strength in numbers and valid points to air so there is no comeback.

That is when you can get satisfaction.

In the meantime just shutup and move on.

[DaisyLawrence]

No. Violence is NEVER the answer. I would, however, have walked away saying that my life is too short to waste 1 minute of it on hate and negativity when there is so much fun that could be had in my free time.

[Micki_Finn]

Some people deserve facepunches. Some aren’t even worth the bruised knuckles. From the sound of it, I don’t think he would have listened to ANY reason or argument, and you defending the community wouldn’t have changed this guy one iota. You may feel like you let the community down, but really the war isn’t being fought on that front. The real war is for the hearts and minds of the people who will scrutinize how we deal with bigots and hate like that.

[mykell]

interesting position, in past posts ive relayed this story of defending myself without outing myself,

while at work and such when this type of topic came up i would simply say say i have a "full on tranny" or "genderfluid" member in my family and as such i educated myself on the topic. this would usually squelch the topic and show them how bigoted they are, being that you were with you brother would make this a mute method.

sorry to see your family member be a get along guy with his friend.

[Stephanie47]

Amen, Mykell. I am totally surprised by many of the comments suggesting someone should just sit idle while vile statements are made just to keep the peace. As Mykell said supporting or taking someone to task for vile filth when talking about a group does not confer inclusion in the group. Should a person sit idle when vile filth is put forth against Jews or Roman Catholics (yes, I've heard it said for those) or Latinos (heard that lately?), and, I could go on ad nauseam. If you do not stand up for any segment of society who is show ill will, when your turn comes, who is left to stand up for you? To sit idly and not confront such hatred is plain wrong. One does not have to resort to violence or even raise the decibel level to confront hatred.

Grrrr!!!

[ossian]

KatrinaK: I had a very similar experience while visiting my brother and his family a number of years back. My brother was relaying a story about being disgusted on the appearance of a trans person and their apartment. He bought something off of craigs list and was picking it up and didn't know that the person he was buying from was trans. Here's how it turned out when I did said the following, "You know. If you swapped out a few words from your story like fa***t with <fill in a slur word for ethnic minority>, that would make you a racist. Is that the kind of message you want to convey?". My wife and I got thrown out of the house. We had to find a hotel. And, my brother and I haven't spoken in 5 years. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Yes. But, he was being an ass in front my teenage nephew. I didn't want my silence to be silent affirmation of his hate filled diatribe. PS My nephew and I still text back and forth, which is nice.

[Alice B]

Remember the saying...you don't spit into the wind. You did well

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Katrina :hugs: ,Discretion is the better part of Valor/ AKA bighting your tongue. ..+:daydreaming:+..

[Sherrii]

I don't think anything you could have said, (or done) would have changed any minds here. You did the best thing you could. Sherrii

[Lydianne]

I agree with those that said you would not have changed his mind. At least, not on that day.

My strategy that I use at work against the broken masculinity type guys is I turn and walk away. As I'm retreating, I say very audibly:

"Actually, I have nothing against gays."
( Or whichever group's turn it is to be bigotted against )..

Or,

"Thank goodness we're all perfect so that we can talk like this."
( That's one is usually in defence of a particular woman or women's appearances )


You could not have done that in your situation, but another option is when you get the guy alone, you just mention discreetly: "I didn't want to make a scene earlier, but I have nothing against trans. Just letting you know." And walk away. I have used this one as well.


Now, this most likely would not have changed his mind, but he might think about it. Or when he's relaying his anti-trans talk to his next audience, he might mention this "trans-lover" (you) who opposed him, and you never know, someone might say, "You know, actually I agree with that other person". Now that would get him thinking... :thinking:.

But none of that happens if we stay quiet. But there's still time to catch up with that guy.

- Lydianne.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Yeah, the dude was a mysoginistic, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragger in front of the 'guys', but then when he and the wife gets home and he wants sex, she says not after your performance tonight...…..and he whines and pouts like the little man he really is.

You did fine, you fully recognize how truly wrong some peeps are, and you made the best of it.
Don't take this wrong, but sorry about your brother...…...maybe someday if the right time comes along, you can try and talk him down from his resentment towards trans-folk.

Thanx for the thread.
Cass

[Teresa]

Katrina,
What difference do you think it would have made if they all knew about your TG situation , do you think they would have been more considerate or attempt to make the evening as difficult as possible for you ?

The other question is how did the conversation get onto this subject , do any of them know about your Cding ?

I'm in a slightly different situation as all my family know and also I'm now separated so I'm wondering under those circumstances how would I have dealt with it . Obviously a violent reaction is not going to happen but I think I would have defended myself . No one is perfect in this world we all have skeletons in the cupboard !

[Sarasometimes]

You can't fix stupid! Violence would not have been a better path, even if he got the worst of it. Do to my line of work I end up hearing similar ignorant and bigoted BS. I have resigned myself that work, which I need to survive is not the place to try to educate the bigots. My guess is that if you think back on their comments you will likely conclude there is no teaching them. Learning only occurs when someone wishes to learn.
Also much of their BS is driven from fear and when people are scared they can react unpredictably. Granted, I'm sure in your mind a nice snappy jab to his nose and uppercut to the chin would have made you feel better for the moment, the squad car ride...Would have made his ignorance and bigotry, your problem. Plus they aren't worth the risk of breaking a nail. Good job using restraint!

[Lygophilia]

It would've been funny if you have punched. I don't like people talking about annoying things in front of me. You need to shut them up in some way.

[suzanne]

I don't think you would have had much success had you begun a straight up argument. From what I've read, the best way is to ask questions that challenge his viewpoint. And that's a highly individual approach with no preset game plan. It seems to start with an honest inquiry into why a person believes as he does. Like "Help me understand...." You may feel the need to take a shower after hearing his answers, but that's how you know which direction you take the questioning going forward.

[mattea]

It is so sad that some people have to demean others in order for them to feel better about themselves. I know no one is perfect, I am certainly no where near it, but while this guy deserves a good kick in the ass, there is little that can be done to deter people who are on a roll like that. I did very much appreciate Lydianne's approach "Thank goodness we are so perfect so we can talk this way!" is going in my tool box! Hope you don't mind Lydianne!

I think you showed great restraint and the fact that you have regrets means that you do truly care about the community and want to defend it, that place was probably not the time to take a stand, especially when it is with someone that doesn't seem to deserve much of anyone's time to begin with.

[Sophie Yang]

Katrina,

Don't address the Trans question directly, but frame questions in a larger context.

Let me just ask you two simple questions:

1. do you support bullying of any kind, I don't.
2. how does this phrase end: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are

answer: ... Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If George Washington was anti-gay, the American Revolution would have failed. Check out Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben, a gay volunteer, who trained George Washington's army.

If you don't want to be picked on, don't pick on others.

You never know when your life will change. One lives in a fantasy world if one thinks the handicap, women, blacks, Hispanics, LGBT, the elderly don't get discriminated against. You never know when you are going to be in the minority or when something happens to you. Just check out Lou Gehrig and Stephen Hawkins life stories.

The march on Washington the day after the Trump Inauguration is just the tip of social fabric changes that are churning through society. The era of white male dominance in the US is coming to an end, check out the racial demographics. Women are surpassing men in obtaining higher education. Education is a key component to power and position.
The midterms election of women, minorities, and about 40 trans candidates are going to be interesting to watch.

There are many trans-individuals, women, handicapped people, people of of all races, US citizens, non citizens who have served in the past and are serving now, honorably in defense of the Constitution and the idea enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

Don't label me a libtard, I just think everyone has the unalienable Rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Then get up and go talk to the women.

[Barbara Black]

I admire your contraint, but couldn't they read your 'discomfort' on your face? I think I would have been beet red..

[Stephanie47]

Move this conversation from the kitchen table to a table at a restaurant and film the responses of those around as in ABC's "What would you do?" with John Quinones. Sad!

[kimdl93]

Am I crazy or did this person deserve to be punched in the face in front of his wife?

To paraphrase Clint Eastwood in “Unforgiven”, ‘We all deserve it.’

At at some point I have been an ass and can think of at least one occasion when I got exactly that.

[mykell]

Amen, Mykell. I am totally surprised by many of the comments suggesting someone should just sit idle while vile statements are made just to keep the peace. As Mykell said supporting or taking someone to task for vile filth when talking about a group does not confer inclusion in the group. Should a person sit idle when vile filth is put forth against Jews or Roman Catholics (yes, I've heard it said for those) or Latinos (heard that lately?), and, I could go on ad nauseam. If you do not stand up for any segment of society who is show ill will, when your turn comes, who is left to stand up for you? To sit idly and not confront such hatred is plain wrong. One does not have to resort to violence or even raise the decibel level to confront hatred.

Grrrr!!!

funny you should mention Latina, my wife is, their by my son is half, was working with an elder person whos son i later worked with.

we were working in a predominantly Puerto rican area and he kept making fun about how they spoke English with an accent, i was just happy they were speaking English.

i got fed up and asked if i had showed him a picture of my son. he said no, i pulled the foto out and showed him, he said he was handsome, i said thank you and told him he was 1/2 puerto rican, he started to babble about how i knew what he meant about the comments and he didnt mean anything.

i looked at him in the eye and told him i knew exactly what he meant and walked away, that is what i base my new approach to sticking up for myself while not outing myself. someday when my wife is better about it it wont matter anymore and i will just stick up for myself....

[KatrinaK]

And therein lies the crux - I’m kind of ashamed of myself for not finding a way to speak up. Forget the violence, which was just a fantasy really... I feel like if I have the audacity to wear a genderfluid pride flag around my neck, that I have a responsibility to stand up to that kind of vitriol. Cause here’s the thing- if we don’t stand up for ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to stand up for us. I feel like once we have constitutional protection as a group against discrimination, then it will be easy - but who is going to pave that road if not us?

Thanks for the positive comments about controlling myself, but I feel like I missed an opportunity to do the ethical thing, out of fear. I’m done with fear, but it’s taking time for that to manifest itself in my daily life.

[Rogina B]

And therein lies the crux - I’m kind of ashamed of myself for not finding a way to speak up.

I guess I am the only one that thinks you should have said something....

[KatrinaK]

Rogina, there are a few, including me. There’s a dichotomy between anonymity and pride that I’m struggling with. I’m leaning heavily to the pride side, but wrestling with the implications.

[DaisyLawrence]

No you are not the only one Ro, I too think something should have been said, just not including violence, ever. The mistake Katrina made was to assume saying something would have 'outed' her to people she did not wish to be out to. I'm sure with the benifit of hindsight she now realises she could have said something that did not include a personal declaration by being quite general in her respeonse to the bigotry shown. Some good suggestions on this thread. There'll always be a next time Katrina.

[Shayla]

Difficult situation. I would like to say that I would have come up with something witty, but the reality is probably not. Unfortunately we have all met that "type" and there isn't much you could have said to change his mind. Makes me think I should have some responses ready to go for that type of situation...But your posts do raise the issue- how do we defend trans people anonymously, since most of us are not out in public? And if we dont vigorously defend trans rights, are we hypocrites?

[Rogina B]

When we in the "alphabet community" are trying to build support for a city to enact an all inclusive human rights ordinance[HRO],we engage the support of "Straight Allies"...People that "get it" because they believe in the good of people. It is from this "angle" that you can support the community yet not "out" yourself. Done around the globe all the time !

[Sarasometimes]

Rogina,
Your view that she should have said something is fair but I think this situation is kind of like a replay in sports. Katrina was undoubtedly caught off guard by this and then she reached out to us to essentially second guess her. We had the benefit of time and no real emotions from being in the moment. Maybe if she said something, a meaningful dialogue would have ensued but call me a skeptic, I truly doubt it.

[Crissy 107]

Sara, I totally agree with you. So many times one can think of something they should have said about whatever but did not at the moment. Crissy

[mykell]

And therein lies the crux - I’m kind of ashamed of myself for not finding a way to speak up. Forget the violence, which was just a fantasy really... I feel like if I have the audacity to wear a genderfluid pride flag around my neck, that I have a responsibility to stand up to that kind of vitriol. Cause here’s the thing- if we don’t stand up for ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to stand up for us. I feel like once we have constitutional protection as a group against discrimination, then it will be easy - but who is going to pave that road if not us?

Thanks for the positive comments about controlling myself, but I feel like I missed an opportunity to do the ethical thing, out of fear. I’m done with fear, but it’s taking time for that to manifest itself in my daily life.

no shame in how you handled the situation, it had happened to me many times in my social circles, rumored innuendoes have followed me since high school.

just wanted to share how i handle it now that i have accepted myself.

i am curious and did not bring it up at first, does your brother know your secret ? maybe has his suspicions ? found your stash when growing up, shared this with his friend to out you or shame you to get you to stop.....they seemed to know a little too much about things, trans agendas and terms and you openly wearing the GF flag has raised theyre ire....it seems theyre banter was directed towards you ?

[Stephanie47]

funny you should mention Latina, my wife is, their by my son is half, was working with an elder person whos son i later worked with.

we were working in a predominantly Puerto rican area and he kept making fun about how they spoke English with an accent, i was just happy they were speaking English.

i got fed up and asked if i had showed him a picture of my son. he said no, i pulled the foto out and showed him, he said he was handsome, i said thank you and told him he was 1/2 puerto rican, he started to babble about how i knew what he meant about the comments and he didnt mean anything.

i looked at him in the eye and told him i knew exactly what he meant and walked away, that is what i base my new approach to sticking up for myself while not outing myself. someday when my wife is better about it it wont matter anymore and i will just stick up for myself....

Exactly! My daughter married a highly education professional, who happens to be African-American. My wife and I have done the same thing, yank out the photos of daughter, son-in-law, and mixed race grandson. Yep, all kinds of embarrassment. Oh, not racist? Damn straight you are! Our family is so diverse we are able to embarrass every pin-headed person for their bias words against transgender men and women, all races and all religions. You want to slam someone segment of our society, you slam our family.

When it comes to this posts transgender issue I hang out with a group of a dozen combat veterans who are in our late sixties and early seventies. Although many do not understand what makes a transgender man or woman tick, they do not denigrate and belittle others. Maybe it has something to do with defending someone's right to be different.

[Sarah Doepner]

. . . .But for the sake of your relationship, probably best you stayed silent and probably mention to your brother in private, that you found his "bros views" ignorant and embarrassing

I agree with Rachel here. If you are ever invited to join them again, decline with that conversation being the reason. You don't have to come out to your brother, but you can pick a battle you can win. Being a supporter of the marginalized people is a good solid stand and your family should be willing to honor your desires there.

[Aunt Kelly]

When it comes to this posts transgender issue I hang out with a group of a dozen combat veterans who are in our late sixties and early seventies. Although many do not understand what makes a transgender man or woman tick, they do not denigrate and belittle others. Maybe it has something to do with defending someone's right to be different.

Very insightful, Stephanie. That group, genuine combat veterans, knows how equal we all are. They may not always consciously appreciate those differences, but as a group, they are more ready to accept such things than the rest of society. I suspect such insight comes from their unique experience.