"Passing." Expanding on my "How did u know u were a CD?", post.

[docrobbysherry]

NOTE! This thread is aimed at CD's, not TS's.:straightface:

As much as I dislike "fantasy" threads, let me pose this question?:straightface:

If u r a cross dresser and could magically pass, wouldn't many/most suddenly become TS?:battingeyelashes:

In other words, how many of us r crossdressers simply because we don't wish to live as MIADs?:brolleyes:

After considering this and remembering what it felt like to actually pass among Muggles? Even I mite try living as a woman! And, I've never felt like, or believed, I was one. :daydreaming:

CD's, would u transform if could pass easily? Or better yet, why wouldn't u?:heehee:

[Teresa]

Sherry,
I know we have different thoughts about being out in the real World .

Your question is still relying on the use of labels to describe what is hidden under the hood so to speak !

I'm finding I'm less concerned about these labels simply because the general public aren't bothered or concerned , they don't know when I pass them in the street what anatomy lies beneath , what is false and what is real and the point is they don't care . So this then poses the question if my GD isn't that severe do I need to go any further with transition , as I've said before Marcelle ( Isha ) called it social transition and look what she went on to achieve in the Canadian military .

Transition may change your gender but the rest is a learning curve , at what point have you become a woman . They may still not pass in some people's eyes in fact they may even come over as a MIAD but does it matter if they have achieved what they set out to do . To some being a stunning model of a woman isn't what it is about or perhaps still not achievable but they still felt the need to transition .

I prefer to present myself dressed as a woman , I feel comfortable and now confident , how others see me I can't say all I know is I feel accepted to be dressed as I choose , no one has given me a problem . Unlike you I love integrating , to be part of a community as Teresa , to do my everyday jobs , I can only say simply it feels right what ever label is written across my Tshirt !

[DaisyLawrence]

Good question Doc. Personally I am what I am and I pretty well present as much BUT even I would probably prefer to be thought of as a bit of an adrogenous looking girl rather than boy if I was naturally feminine enough. :)

[Paula DAngelo]

Sherry,

I think you might be asking the wrong question. If someone is TS has nothing to do with passing or not passing. It has to do with the persons core identity. I've made the decision to transition and whether I passed or not really didn't come into play when making the decision. I don't know if I pass or not and I really don't care, I'm living my life as the person that I know I am. Reading the posts on this forum there seems to be a majority of members that identify as male and are happy being male (not surprising for a CD forum) so why would passing make them change their core identity and suddenly want to be female? I think what might be a better question is would you choose to present as a woman instead of a man.

[docrobbysherry]

Thank u, Teresa, Daisy, and Paula. I've edited my thread to reflect it's for CD's. Not TS's.

It wasn't intended to discuss passing vs anything else! Or anything to do with TS's,at all.

I simply wondered if easily passing mite tempt CD's who've given up transitioning because of their looks, into transitioning?!

(This is one reason why I HATE fantasy threads!):sad:

[Gillian Gigs]

Simply put, I'm a guy who likes nylon lingerie. If I could live in my perfect world, I would be a MIAD, who wore feminine underwear and skirts with pantyhose/tights. I can not deny that it would be neat to try the total transformation through a service and go out for the day with others to help out with the day. That sums up the fantasy part of it for me. I like my shirts, shoes, coats for their comfort, and the lingerie for its comfort also.

[Teresa]

Sherry,
I can only go on the comments from others in my social groups , I'm not going to answer how well I think I pass but others say I'm a natural and surprised I'm not on hormones and if not why not . My simple answer is I'm comfortable with my present situation why do I need to put myself under a pressure to go any further , if the need arises then I may do . Again as you raise the passing question my answer to that is passing as what ? Passing to me means intregrating into society without any problems so the question could be reworded from do you pass 100% ? or are you accepted 100% ? The answer is no to both in my case because my wife and and son have not seen me and certainly don't accept me , otherwise I feel I'm getting close to the magic figure on acceptance but not passing .

[Jaylyn]

Sherry I don't want to be a female I've got one in a wife already. Two females in the same house would be torture. I do enjoy just wearing smooth ladies nylons and heels, I love the makeup, and I enjoy just lounging and watching the tube in my long dress. For some reason it relaxes me and takes the pressure of work off when I dress. I wear wranglers and boots most of the time, I'm not out but I love soft clothing against my skin. Hope this makes sense.

[Patience]

Sherry,

If I may rephrase the question as I understand it, you want to know if people would choose to transition if they were certaiin that they'd look as convincing as a natural born female.

Speaking for myself, no. I have yet to achieve my full crossdressing potential, but I understand that it's another facet of myself. It's a place I visit and enjoy, not a permanent (and irreversible) destination.

I hope my responding to your thread doesn't inadvertently kill it.

[Asew]

I think in my teenage years, one of the things that led to purges was that I couldn't pass and no girl would want to be me with me dressed as a girl. So I might have gone the TS route if I could pass at that time.

Nowadays, if I could pass I still wouldn't be TS since I have grown to accept what I have and it doesn't bother me anymore.

[Beverley Sims]

If I could pass easily I would probably change, I nearly did this when I was twenty.

I was convincing then.

[Rachelakld]

1) I like females in my bed
2) I enjoyed my military life, running through the alps with rifle and backpack and other stuff I couldn't do with a female body without massive testosterone injections.
3) I love having the capabilities my body allows, comes standard with the XY package that only exists in the "modified" XX package.

But then...
I also have a female personality, currently "time sharing" the XY body, she likes to look pretty even though she knows it's not the correct body for her.

[alwayshave]

While I think of myself who likes to dress in women clothes, If I would like like a women, perhaps I would be TS.

[deebra]

If I am correct on this:
A crossdresser has not changed his body but dresses as a female.
A transsexual has had upper and lower surgery and is now a female.
There is a third choice, (Pre Op Transexual is the best way of putting it) but I would prefer this. To do everything including breast augmentation to pass and present as a woman but keep my original plumbing. My personal choice but just think having the plumbing I was born with would be better. I would like a nice set of boobs, a nice girly butt and to present as an attractive woman but would also like to have my maleness tucked away under soft feminine panties.

[SaraLin]

I simply wondered if easily passing mite tempt CD's who've given up transitioning because of their looks, into transitioning?!

(This is one reason why I HATE fantasy threads!):sad:

I'm not sure if I really qualify or not, but I'll answer.
I *DO* CD, but really consider myself as more TG/TS. So Yes, if I could magically pass, I'd have jumped on the wagon a long time ago.

In fact I WAS on the hormones/transition path years ago, but stopped because I suddenly realized I'd never be able to make it to my goal, I'd probably 'get stuck' somewhere in the middle, and would end up ruining the life I'd built for myself in the effort.

So - I CD to control the pressure. Think of it as a relief valve if you like. If I can't express my feminine side somehow, the pressure will build up until I either explode or melt down.

Like I said at the beginning, I'm not sure if I really qualify - I've never been "just" a CD'er. It's always been so much more for me.

[Rayleen]

Probably a home CDer, love to wear bra n forms, panties and a cardigan in morning. Always in my favorite top and skirt in the evening.

Time will tell if my going out in the future. Looks would not be a stop if I decide to go out dressed.

[dana digs sweaters]

Transition? Nope! Too much fun as a dude.
Like being able to do dude stuff, even if dude stuff never required a penis.
Like the income I am making as a dude. Lower income if I transitioned? Possible
Still thoroughly enjoy the magic of the transformation from dude to dudette.

295427

To go out and about as a chica where No One could guess that I really was NOT a woman? Sure

295428 ;-)

[Queen Bridget]

Without doubt. If I felt like I passed 100%, I would probably become trans.

[Eeddie248]

You look great

[Desiree2bababe]

I wouldn't completely as I enjoy my male life also but I damn sure would do my clubbing as a female if I could pass easily. Once upon a time I did and it was a lot of fun. I miss those days........

[Stephanie47]

No, I would not transform if I was passable. I would like to be fully (100%) passable because being passable would enhance the experience of emulating a woman. For me as well as many others, some of whom are probably denying or not realizing the true reason for wearing women's clothing, it is not the clothes. It is the temporary escapism from the stresses induced by society upon men. I've said my position numerous times over the years or at least agreed with a therapist I know. Each man or woman has some degree of dna within them of the other sex. In some it is greater than others. The would seem to cover the occasional wearer of women's clothing to a transsexual trapped within the wrong sack of protoplasm. I like being a man. If I was not a man, being a woman would be great.

If one were to become a transsexual that implies remembering the time when you had to act as a male. That is not like a fantasy where "poof," now a woman with no memory of a prior state of acting like a male. A complete memory wash? Total expunge the memories? The angst?

There are times when Stephanie arises within this male body because there is a psychological need for her to appear. I am no longer stressed out by this dual personality. Stephanie lives side by side with her male companion. I as a large man, six foot and 200 pounds, who does not make into a comfortable appearing woman. To venture out into the world as such does negate the reason Stephanie appears, i.e., stress relief. To walk among the muggles as a man in a dress negates that stress relief. So, if I was 100% passable it would enable Stephanie to freely move through life when necessary doing all the things men and women do outside the confines of their private space.

Yes, my fondness is for the feel of nylon panties over cotton panties when emulating a woman. I prefer cotton underpants when "emulating" a man. Those are style choices, not the reason to wear women's clothing.

[docrobbysherry]

Thanks to those who responded to the original post question.:thumbsup:

Let me add, when I said "transition", I didn't mean a complete physical change. Many full time trans today keep their male parts.

With that in mind and in the context of my question, u could pass perfectly but still be able present as a male if u wished to. Altho, you'd be a pretty man!:heehee:

Like Desiree and Queen Bridget, I certainly would be tempted to spend a lot more time out dressed if I could pass easily! But, full time? I really don't know------:battingeyelashes:

Another problem with fantasy threads! The "what ifs"!:Angry3:

[Sarasometimes]

Since I really would like to be fully accepted as a blended, presenting as some of both I would not likely become TS. My biggest challenge is my world doesn't like/accept things outside of feminine for females/masculine for males and never the twain shall meet!
This is a big reason why I so like barre and pole dancing, those places seem to be very comfortable with non-binary, binary...whatever, especially pole dance studios and their clients!!!!! Before I found these outlets, beauty salons were the most accepting places I had found.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Sherry :hugs:, When I was young I didn't understand why I enjoyed wearing ladies clothes
and I would see a story in Dear Abbey about some ones husband wearing her clothes.

Little by little I realized that there were others like me.


I would never change as I am having the best of both worlds. >Orchid ..+:daydreaming:+..

[Eeddie248]

I always loved female clothing. They always attracted me more than guys clothing. I always got such a rush when dressing up I loved it from the start. I

[ClosetED]

Your original statement, would you become TS was wrong, but you later corrected it.
To me, in simplistic terms, a CD wants to change how society interacts with them, as a female and not as a male. A TS wants to interact with the world as a female and have them interact that way back.
But if I could magically pass, would I now live 24/7? No, because I prefer to choose how society interacts with me - as a male and if I chose, as a female.
If society suddenly no longer treated the gender presentations differently, which would put the dating scene in a whirlwind, then that is different.
IMHO,
Hugs, Ellen

[Helen_Highwater]

Sherry,

I guess the vast majority of us would like to look as femme as possible when out and about and to taken 100% as a female would certainly tick the box. The problem lies in returning to drab. I don't want to be seen as being effeminate while presenting as my male self. So strive as I do to make my facade as female as I can I think I'd have to say no to your proposition.

If at some point in the future I decided to live 24/7 as a female then that shifts the goal posts.

[Teresa]

Helen,
That's an interesting comment , who do you need to macho up for , family , work or just friends ? I know there is a difference in male / female actions but I try to not overdo being too femme and don't overdo the macho side when I need to be in drab . I don't do camp, at times I may get it wrong but then what exactly do we come over as , some women are more masculine than me !

It also can be a problem with F/M members , sometimes they try too hard and come over as too mean and moody so we all live with stereotypes , I aim just to be me but with a femme appearance , it appears to work fine with people because I come over as so comfortable with it . Trying too hard in some directions takes yoiu back to being nervous and less confident .

[Helen_Highwater]

Teresa,

Macho isn't the term I'd apply. I'm not one for chest beating and muscle flexing, I'm too old for silly things like that. I suppose the best way to describe it, and I hope you'll like where I'm going with this, is I like to blend regardless of which gender I present as. Add to this I spend significantly more time presenting my male side than I do my femme to the outside world whereas you're the reverse.

As I understand Sherry's proposition if you take the red pill then the features change for good, no going back so while my life is spent predominantly as male, I'll make the best of what I have.

[susan54]

I like being a man. The only aspect of women I envy is their clothing. I absolutely love interacting with women as a man and would never give that up.

OK, I do not pass, but I look really good when I dress up fully. Women who know me say I look like a really, really elegant ... person. That is all I am seeking. I make a good job of dressing and acting like a woman and that is enough. A few times women have assumed that I too was a woman. Yes, I got a buzz out of it, but all it meant was that my acting was really good that day or - more likely - that they simply weren't paying attention.

Yes, I spend most of my time fully dressed - apart from make up and wig. Clearly I love it. But for 99% of my interaction with the world I want to do so as a man and a masculine (but not macho) man at that. That ain't going to change no matter how good I get at looking like a broad.

[HollyGreene]

If I could pass easily, I still wouldn't transition. I would go out dressed a lot more though, and with a lot more confidence.

[Samantha Sometimes]

I would in an instant.

[Ressie]

I'd say if I had more feminine physical characteristics, I would be more passable. And those characteristics would also have an affect on my personality. Knowing myself, I think I would more likely take on a fem personality more often than I do now.

Being more passable in that regard would increase my desire to live as a women 24/7.

[Carolina]

I think these are great questions.

In my fantasy world I’d love to be a woman (there! I said it!). In reality, faced with my wife, grown children, friends and society issues and not being able to pass I think transitioning remains an illusion, utopia or dream that seems impossible to achieve.

If I could pass then I think I’d start taking some steps towards transition to see where I would end up. Passing is a big thing for me, but societal and family constraints are also big hurdles to overcome

In summary, I’m still trying to figure myself out...

[Fran-K]

If u r a cross dresser and could magically pass, wouldn't many/most suddenly become TS?


In the sense of having some of the bits I was born with magically turned into the bits I wasn't?
Nope.
I'm quite content with what I have (well, maybe not the extra 20 pounds ... but that's a different question I think :-).

Would I like to be such that my body could more better fit the female physique so as to be able to pass more-or-less undetected? Possibly, but not at the cost of losing my male attributes. Dressing is fun and enjoyable; sometimes I need the male muscle mass to do things that need doing (like splitting firewood, building stone walls, and so on).

I guess I'd like to have my cake and to eat it (and to lose the 20 pounds!)

Fran

[abby054]

I simply wondered if easily passing mite tempt CD's who've given up transitioning because of their looks, into transitioning

No, not at all. I would take full advantage of being able to enjoy the best of both worlds.

[kimdl93]

Without question, I would definitely move toward living 24/7 if I was reasonably passable.

[Charlotte7]

One of the wisest things that my other half ever said to me was that, for GG, wearing a skirt is just like it is for me wearing trousers, so generally, nothing special. So, to my mind, I'd never want to lose that special thrill that I get when I dress, I'd always want it to be special, and so, if I could pass as a woman, then yes, I'd enjoy passing as a woman but I'd still be CD, and not want to be TS. 50 years ago, maybe it would have been the other way, if I could have lived as a girl, then I almost certainly would, But, now, too much water has flowed under that bridge, that I'm now this way and happy with it too.

[sometimes_miss]

To all those who say that if they could pass, they would definitely transition, I have a question: Are you strictly homosexual now? Or Bisexual? Because the number of women interested in a romantic relationship with a post op MTF is even lower than the number of women who are interested in men who crossdress. Essentially you will be limiting your intimate relationships to men who aren't interested in any long term type relationships with you, it will be just random sex when it does happen. Are you okay with that?


I think you might be asking the wrong question. If someone is TS has nothing to do with passing or not passing.
Well......sometimes. It really depends upon just how severe the GID is; whether it affects your ability to get through the day. And it also would make a difference as to whether transitioning would just further make life harder in so many ways.

I simply wondered if easily passing mite tempt CD's who've given up transitioning because of their looks, into transitioning?
If you've given up on transitioning just because you won't have the female body you really want, then you're not a CD. You'r a non op TS.
As above, transitioning will change life drastically, and I believe that many TS go through the whole process, never quite understanding just how hard it's going to be. I think that the immediate goal is just to relieve the intense psychological discomfort in having the body which is the wrong physical sex. Once that is corrected, all the other problems associated with it come to the forefront.

I also have a female personality, currently "time sharing" the XY body,
Interesting way of putting it, that.

If I am correct on this:
A crossdresser has not changed his body but dresses as a female.
A transsexual has had upper and lower surgery and is now a female.
Appears physically to be female. But is not. Post op, that person is a post op MTF transsexual to oh, about 99% of the world. They retain their dna, as well as various structural differences, more, if they transitioned and has SRS post puberty without having received certain hormone blockers before their transition. A MTF TS will never have all of the minute structures, glands, etc., that a female at birth person does.

there is a third choice,
And many more choices, as well. As many as there are us.

[SaraLin]

To all those who say that if they could pass, they would definitely transition, I have a question: Are you strictly homosexual now? Or Bisexual? Because the number of women interested in a romantic relationship with a post op MTF is even lower than the number of women who are interested in men who crossdress.

I'm one of those who said we'd transition, so here's my answer:
I'd say that post-transition, I'd probably be Asexual.

I wouldn't need to be in an intimate sexual relationship with anyone. For me, at least, that wouldn't be a consideration. At this stage of my life, I'm far enough past it that I could easily do without.


Even though it's fun to imagine, "what if's" don't really matter. I wake up in the morning and her I am - still stuck in reality.

[Aunt Kelly]

Wow... So many misunderstandings about transsexuals.
Sex (the act) may (or may not) be important to the individual, but I'll go out on a limb and say that it is a tertiary consideration, at best, on their decision to transition.
Where are the sources for the assertion that the number "women interested in a romantic relationship with a post op MTF is even lower than the number of women who are interested in men who crossdress..."?
Similarly, by what authority do you assert that "...you will be limiting your intimate relationships to men who aren't interested in any long term type relationships..."?
I am not saying that it's not difficult for a transitioned TS to find a partner/spouse. I'm sure it is, but then there are a lot of difficult things for them. Hell, just going to the bathroom can be a serious issue in some jurisdictions. The point is that none of this seems to be a primary consideration for any of the TS people I know.

And passing? Transition is not about passing. No TS that I am familiar with has "Will I pass?" on their decision tree. "Living authentically" is the phrase you will often hear, not "looking like a real girl".

Look, I understand that there is a spectrum of gender identities. Everyone on it is an individual and will have different issues driving or impeding their pursuit of the identity with which they are most comfortable. Trying to assign those issues to this or that box is a fool's errand.

[Paula DAngelo]

And passing? Transition is not about passing. No TS that I am familiar with has "Will I pass?" on their decision tree. "Living authentically" is the phrase you will often hear, not "looking like a real girl".


Aunt Kelly,
Thank you for repeating this. It's nice to see someone realizes this. I made this same point early in this thread and got the impression that many of the members thought I was clueless and didn't know what I was talking about. Why would I, I'm only a transwoman so what would I know about this.

[KristinaK]

I feel 75% male, 25% female and have the desire to express each of these separately. I am a man, enjoy being a man but I have a fem side that I express through my physical appearance.

[DaisyLawrence]

Aunt Kelly,
Thank you for repeating this. It's nice to see someone realizes this. I made this same point early in this thread and got the impression that many of the members thought I was clueless and didn't know what I was talking about. Why would I, I'm only a transwoman so what would I know about this.

Don't worry Paula, Kelly is not the only one to 'get it'. I am sure the silent majority get it too but just don't post that often, at least I like to think they must.

[AngelaYVR]

Wow Doc, I’m not sure you were expecting such a range of answers! But if I could pass 100% I still wouldn’t take it full time. Although I would certainly enjoy those 100% moments!

[Dena]

My motto is "Never say Never", I would love to be a "pretty" man. I don't think I'd live as a woman if I were though.
For instance, I've never been interested in wearing women's casual clothing.

[Alyssa Lane]

As for me, it would be full or nothing, but It would require everything a GG is born with, our technology hasn’t gotten that far yet, so unless I could completely swap bodies, then any transision is a no, maybe some breasts, but the D is always so challenging to hide.

[Becky Blue]

I don't know if I fit into Doc's definition of posting in this thread as i don't really define myself as a CD.. but i really don't see how the way we look when dressed can make a lot of difference... i am very happy with how I look when I am dressed, that has nothing to do with how far I want or need to take Becky.

People who are TS usually say they did not have much choice in the matter.

[docrobbysherry]

Which is exactly why I intended this thread for CD,s, Becky!:heehee:

TS's don't have a choice. But, many CD's like me, do! If I dress once a week I'm completely happy and satisfied.
But, if I could pass easily, would that push me to go further!?:battingeyelashes:

[Becky Blue]

Doc, what about the others on the continuum? its not like there are just two types of us girls? :daydreaming: i have a choice.. but its not impacted by how good I do or don't look.

[docrobbysherry]

Becky, as for my thread there R only 2 types of T girls:

Those that feel they MUST present as women to be who they r and those that don't feel that way!:thumbsup:

Maybe I over simplified my post by referring just to TS's and CD's as examples. But that's what I meant!:battingeyelashes:

[Becky Blue]

Doc, your oversimplification is actually the point anyone who feels that there is a possibility they may become TS is not a CD but is also not TS

[DaisyLawrence]

Interesting Becky but does anyone actually become TS or do they in fact just realise they always were TS but didn't know it?

[Becky Blue]

Daisy, i think late is the concept of late onset.. whether perhaps they just never realised not sure...which kind of circles back to Doc's OP and the question if passing makes one realise that one maybe TS.. i don't believe so

[sometimes_miss]

I am not saying that it's not difficult for a transitioned TS to find a partner/spouse. I'm sure it is
So you agree with what I wrote, but for some bizarre reason decided to question it anyway?

[Aunt Kelly]

So you agree with what I wrote, but for some bizarre reason decided to question it anyway?

No I don't, and your cherry picked, out of context quote, an obvious attempt to deflect the fact that you can't substantiate this claim...


Because the number of women interested in a romantic relationship with a post op MTF is even lower than the number of women who are interested in men who crossdress. Essentially you will be limiting your intimate relationships to men who aren't interested in any long term type relationships with you, it will be just random sex when it does happen.
...does nothing to help the conversation. You have made those assertions. Defend them with facts or at least admit that your evidence is, at best, anecdotal.

Doc, I regret that this topic has gone into the weeds, but respectfully, it was bound to do so because the notion that "passing" would prompt a crossdresser to transition. Crossdressers don't transition. While were at it, let's also clear up what "transition" means, or rather does not mean. It is not simply changing one's body to be more feminine. All the hormone's and surgery one might indulge in don't make one a woman unless that's how you already see yourself. If you still see yourself as male, still live as a male, you have not transitioned. This misunderstanding is quite pervasive here and would like see a much broader understanding of our TS sisters go through.

[Sallee]

interesting question. Like "whats the difference between a CD and a TS? Two years."
I don't believe that. I have had extended periods of dressing maybe a week at the longest and mostly after 3 or 4 days I really have to force myself to dress. I still enjoy it and like to think I pass pretty well. and I do at least in my own mind and that's 1/2 the battle.
But I don't think I'll ever want it full time. AThe thrill would be gone.
Thats just me I like to keep it fun and not let it rule me. I know for others it is different.

[docrobbysherry]

Well, also respectfully, Aunt Kelly, u r saying what I did in my explanation to Becky. In which I admitted oversimplifying dressers into 2 groups. And, I realize some T's r TS's and CD's, but many r also something else. The point of my thread was NOT to separate TS's from CD's or, to belittle the struggles EVERY T has to make to transition!

The point of my thread mite test your statement that we either, "---feel like women or men". I don't believe that's true! I believe many of us r on the fence between genders. I wondered if passing easily as a woman mite encourage some of the fence sitters to come down off their fences?

I think it's possible that one's negative appearance can be a very intimidating factor. Possibly enuff that CD's, maybe even a few TS's, may not live as women with that being a reason.

[Sorsha Willow]

I've wanted to be a woman for as long as I can remember. I remember stealing my mother's pantyhose and making thongs out of boys hanes underwear, haha.

I'm not interested in transitioning though, crossdressing seems to be filling whatever void I have.

[sometimes_miss]

You have made those assertions. Defend them with facts or at least admit that your evidence is, at best, anecdotal.
I've spent much of my life trying to find as much information as possible about how our minds work, especially anything about sexuality and gender. It wasn't to form some research paper to publish; it was to figure myself out. Though it took decades do to in a world where virtually no one had published much of anything on the subject, I managed to do that. I did not keep a stack of copies in filing cabinets for future reference, nor did I record discussions that I had with people who fall outside the binary world of gender. I came to this forum to share what I've learned since I started learning about all this, back when I was in high school, because while lurking, I found an incredible lack of information here. Even today, the prevailing belief is 'Oh, I was born this way', yet those often cannot explain why for much of their childhood, there was no urge to crossdress at all.
Feel free to disagree with everything I write, but please don't form your opinions just based on what you read on obviously biased web pages and talking to a few TS. You can start with this website, there is plenty of material available in the archived locked threads. Good luck to you.

[jezola]

Different views, I'm a quite masculine male but feel "girly" and gay when dressed, who knows ?

[LilSissyStevie]

Crossdressers don't transition.

Sorry, but this is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Just saying. We could just as easily say that no man would wear a dress because a true man wouldn't do such a thing.

[Aunt Kelly]

Sorry, but this is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Just saying. We could just as easily say that no man would wear a dress because a true man wouldn't do such a thing.

Sorry, but you misunderstand. Someone who actually transitions is, by definition, something other than a crossdresser. I'm not saying that crossdressers don't change how they view themselves. There are plenty of examples on this forum. I have a personal friend who identified as CD for most of her adult life until, in her words, she "decided" that she was actually TS. We can debate whether it was a decision or a discovery/admission of something that was there all along, but the male who transitions to living as a woman is TS. Yes, hormones and surgery are common, but they do not define the identity any more than do the clothes. And yes, there are lots of us in between. Some have found labels that fit, while others still look for the right one, or don't care.

[Sorsha Willow]

Different views, I'm a quite masculine male but feel "girly" and gay when dressed, who knows ?

Same here. It's a complete 180 for me.

[LilSissyStevie]

I think you're just saying the same thing with more words - No true TS was ever a CD because CDs don't transition. If they transition, they are not true CDs. I don't see that there is any conclusive evidence that there is a strict binary here rather than a continuum. But then again, it's not something I really need to worry about since there is no chance that I'll transition. The idea of transition was only ever an erotic fantasy for me. What I mistook for gender dysphoria was nothing more than sexual longing. I say that as though sexual longing were trivial but it is in fact central to our being.

[Taylor186]

At this stage of my life (60s) I know that I am now and that I always have been just a crossdresser. So, being a passable form of myself would not push me towards transition. Being super-model attractive? That might get a different answer but it still wouldn't include transition. At my core I'm a male no matter how I'm dressed, or not dressed.


A comment and a question:
1) I know of one transition-minded member of a CD support group I once attended who stated to me that she would never consider transition if she wasn't passable. She was extremely passable and did eventually transition.
2) How do you classify a CD who goes on to transition (thus, from comments above was never really a CD) and then detransitions?

[Aunt Kelly]

No, I am not saying those things at all. The word "true" never appears in my text. That you have chosen to insert it in your paraphrasing of what I wrote is as conspicuous as it is disingenuous.

[docrobbysherry]

Aunt Kelly, altho I'm a rare case I'm not unique. U r not allowing for how people change over time and my personal experience proves that. I don't agree with your theory that in every case the CD was a TS because she eventually transitioned.

When I began dressing out of the blue at age 50, I dealt with my issues completely alone. No help from online or extended research. I thot I had turned gay because I thot of sex with men. I wanted real breasts and continually fantasized about complete SRS. Only after 12 years, finding this site and meeting other dressers, and eventually getting my female suit, that I found all I really wanted was to look female, not become one!

So, in a sense, I began dressing as a TS and became a CD. I often do things backwards but u see my point? Which is, u can't pigeon hole everyone into the binary of TS or CD. We all have to take our own road to discovering who we r and what we want. And, there r too many of us in between the male/female genders to make your assumptions!:straightface:

[Aunt Kelly]

Again, that is nowhere near what I said. What part of "I'm not saying that crossdressers don't change how they view themselves..." do y'all not get?

[AngelaYVR]

Splitting hairs! So what's the accepted time-line for a CD to come to grips that they are really TS? And why can't people get off their high horse and just answer the original question as Doc asked in the spirit that it was asked? Starting to remember why I left this site.

[DaisyLawrence]

Indeed Angela I hear what you are saying. As soon as I read the OP I kind of knew this was going to end up decending into a pit. And yet the thing is I understand what Doc was asking, oversimplified or not. I'll answer Docs question directly in so far as it applies to me and my experience:

First off am I a crossdresser? I am what I am 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. I have no 'inner woman' or alternative personality that's gets out every now and then. I have never fitted into typical male culture and prefer all things feminine but at the same time have no problem with the fact that I just happen to have male genes. In terms of gender I consider myself non-binary but with a feminine tilt. I do not like to look in the mirror and see a typical bloke looking back mostly because I do not want people (men or women) thinking I am a 'typical bloke'. I want them to know that I am more than that stereotype. However (and here is the rub) I have a genetically male body so if I present in a manner that society considers feminine then I am by default a crossdresser even if I don't consider myself to be crossdressing, Get it? On this basis Docs question can be said to apply to me so here goes with the answer.

As I said above I am what I am and I am happy so there is no real need to be anything else like 'more of a woman'. So lets consider a hypothetical situation. Lets say I am forced to be binary in my gender once again, I am told I must live as a woman or a man and can no longer mix it up or vary my presentation (in this hypothetical scenario). Well I can tell you that in such an instance then this passing issue would be relevant. My femine leaning would make me most likely prefer to choose to live as a woman but as this would be a choice then how easy that would be to accomplish would be relevant. If I was 6' 5" and built like a house with Desparate Dan features and the face of a Neanderthal then this would complicate that option somewhat. If I was 5' 4", hairless and built like a woman with the face of an angel then you may as well start calling me miss.

Ah but I hear you say that does not answer the question because it was a hypothetical situation. That's right so here goes. In reality, whilst not tall or butch looking and being capable of a half decent woman if I try, I am not the easy passer that a very few lucky CD's are. Whilst I am happy in myself and my generally androgenous approach to life I do lean towards the female and would find life as a female to be easier in many ways, both practical and emotional. So, would I go the extra mile and transition if it was physically easy as Doc describes? Well yes I just might but I'll probably never know for sure.

So there you have it Doc. A clear answer. And yes it could just be possible.

Thread back on track :)

[Rayleen]

For some, crossdressing is a form of exhibitionism , and they get a high out of it without wanting to transition.

[Aunt Kelly]

Splitting hairs! So what's the accepted time-line for a CD to come to grips that they are really TS? And why can't people get off their high horse and just answer the original question as Doc asked in the spirit that it was asked? Starting to remember why I left this site.

Nooooo.... Not splitting hairs at all. I have stated things unequivocally, so stop projecting terms like "accepted time-line" or "true TS" on what I am saying.
Daisy (thank you, dear) illustrates what I am saying quite nicely. She does not identify as a woman, and while she speculates about transition, it is nothing more than that, at this point. She has no problem with "the fact that [she] has male genes" and at the same time prefers to present en femme. No, presenting en femme 24x7 is not "transition".

[Wildaboutheels]

It's a HOBBY to me plain and simple. Started when I was about ten years old.

It does not/has not ever CONTROLLED me and I'm not worried about where I may end up.

I have never felt the slightest need to pass/be or live as a woman. It has nothing to do with whether I think I "could" pass.

None/any of this ^^^ is a put down in any way ,shape or form to others who will obviously have their own feelings.

I like SOME women's clothing items because of the colors/patterns and the way it fits me.

I imagine many MIADS have similar feelings, but not many are going to respond I feel pretty sure.

[Nikki A.]

I would love to be completely passable. It would I'm sure let me dress more than I do now. Would it make me want to transition though, I seriously don't think so. Even though I think that I'm not passable, I am comfortable in my own skin.
A few years ago, another TG girl insisted and argued with me that within 2 yrs I'd be going down the same path as her. Her reasoning was that even then I handled being dressed as my alternative normal, no trepidation or nerves no matter where we went.
If I could, I think I'd like to be the male me and part time Nikki for most of the year, but have somewhere else (a winter place) where only Nikki would be seen and known. I'd love to try it and see how things go. If wanting to be full-time and passable for an extended period make me TG so be it.

[Fran in skirts]

I wear women's clothes, I am a man, I do not want to be a woman, I am straight. Now the fact that I wear woman's clothes is not a problem for me as a man. They are just fabric and do not really have a gender nor do they reflect my gender or gender leanings. Sure I have given thought to going all the way but that was all it was a thought. Now if you need to know my credentials well I was once married to a transgender woman. It did not work out she was still a man in the ways she did things. She had to be the alpha at all times. At the time I was not wearing skirts and dresses nor had not even thought about it. So yes I cross dress but do not try to pass as a woman. I am a man in a dress or skirt, and I am very happy as such. And what others think is not my problem it is theirs.

:rant:

Fran

:bye: