Are we all seen as crossdressers ?

[Teresa]

I keep coming back to this question the more I mix with the public , OK it is based on being totally enfemme . I was going round the supermaket again today , a husband and wife were having a debate about wine choices , she saw me select some Chilean white wine , so she asked my opinion , I replied I've never had a bad bottle of white or red but I'm no expert all I know is they blend favourably with most meals and are perfectly acceptable on their own , so the husband said we'll give it a try and maybe I'd like to join them in a glass , I know he was joking but it was the way it was said that was the nicest part .

Again that thought crossed my mind how do they see me , am I or all of us just CDers . I didn't want to upset anyone but was almost tempted to ask this in the TS section . Despite where we are on the spectrum the outside World aren't aware of it . It also brings me again to the subject of labels do they really matter , I don't believe they do when being totally out and they have little value if you are still in the closet where no one knows . I still feel we embrace them as we move along our road to give us some identity . I still can't answer if my GD severe enough to take me on or I have reached my transtion point now , I do feel very comfortable with this part of my life , I'm afriad my wife is creating hell again , we tried to keep it all amicable but I feel it is hitting her what has happened and what she has lost . I need her off my back totally now so it looks like I will have to start taking divorce advice .

[Charlotte7]

Labels! They matter and they don't matter. We are both and we are none. We are as we see ourselves and we are, at the same time, as others see us. All we can do is treat everyone with respect and how we ourselves would like to be treated. Sometimes, hopefully mostly, we'll get it right, but unfortunately, sometimes, we'll get it wrong. What we can't do, is other people's thinking for them.

[jennifer0918]

Things that make you HMMMMMMMMMMMM, I really had good experiences with gg's and husbands. Maybe, in my case they were only being polite. Who knows? I was happy to be out enfemme.

[Rayleen]

Teresa,

I would think it might be scary being by yourself, I know I would. In my area, you only see most of them in the pride parade.

Hope everyone safe in Carolina with hurricane Florence.

Raylene

[Ressie]

Maybe you could ask these people that you meet how they would describe your appearance. Go to the park or mall and take a survey.

Oh, and maybe the husband was hitting on you!

[NancySue]

Maybe in the UK, not in our part of the USA (Midwest). Any crossdresser is mostly viewed as gay, bi, transgender, etc. Yes, there are exceptions, but as statistics show, most cders are hetro. It’s best to keep it secret. Discovery is my #1 fear.

[Teresa]

Rayleen ,
No not a bit scary even after this short time , I haven't had a single problem with the public no matter what the situation is . I must admit the waiting area was a touch overwhelming when I dropped in for my flu jab the surgery was heaving with people all of my age or older , I did get some prolonged stares but everyone was very friendly .

Ressie ,
That is precisely the point , how can you ask them what they think , I do agree with Rogina on this point , I now understand her thinking if we are out then we are out , it's up to us to try and get our appearance right or hopefully acceptable . No I'm not using the passing label .

The husband was just a nice guy I don't think he had any other motive but I was in a skirt and wearing stockings with wedge heels , I did glance a few guys checking me out , not that it bothered me .

NancySue,
I'm sorry you have to consider the situation in that way , we do appear to have it easier in the UK but as you know I'm totally out anyway so there's no fears of being discovered .

[Rhonda Jean]

I think the obvious thing is that they just thought you were a woman. It seems to me that the default for the public is either gay or transsexual, and crossdresser=gay. If you present very well, I think they read transsexual. That's my experience at least.

As far as asking people how they read you, I've actually done that. When I was in my early 20's I was obviously read by the girl at the counter at McDonalds. It was the first time I'd ever known for a fact that somebody read me, and it shook me up. I could not figure out how she read me, especially so certainly and so quickly. For some time after that I'd dress and go to the doughnut shop, convenience store, wherever I could interact with one person who I could re-visit. I'd go back the next day and say something like "I guess I look a little different today", or something to initiate a conversation about me being in there the day before dressed as a woman. Sometimes they'd say they didn't know, some said they thought I might have been male but weren't sure, some said it was my voice, one said it was my hands, one said it was just a combination of things that just didn't quite add up.

Now, I started that little investigation hoping that everybody would say, "I had no idea!!". That's not how it went, and really it was pretty informative. I remember right after being read, my first impulse was to go over the top fem, or what I considered fem at the time. I bought an electric blue spandex mine dress and a pair of sky high stilettos and exaggerated everything. More makeup, bigger boobs... you get the picture. Learned pretty quickly that had the opposite effect.

[deebra]

Rhonda Jean,
And apparently nobody "put you down", you were just one of the "many" out there that dress SO differently. Apparently the SA's could care less what you or anyone else wore, just take the donut and give me the money...next customer please, how can I help you? Sounds like acceptance to me....Isn't this what we all want. Is staying behind closed doors our problem and not societies??????

In my area as I drive down the street I see males with baseball caps turned sideways, baggy out of pants foot ball jerseys, pants below their butt so they can hardly walk, freaky hair and I wonder. How can society be O.K. with this? Doesn't a nicely dressed crossdresser look better. If you aren't showing to much skin is all forms of dress accepted today. Is the first I described more accepted than a MtF CD, if so why. Is it because we are crossing the gender we are born with and for some reason this is a no no???? Maybe it's time to re-think where we fit in??????????????

[Diane Taylor]

I've never liked labels, I'm who I am regardless of the label that others put on me. Additionally, I'm not fond of the GG label that some of us put on women.

[susan54]

Does it matter? If people treat you politely that is all that matters. You might get glances in the street but you have to accept that for most people you are something they don't see every day. For some, possibly like the couple in the shop, you are so exotic that they take an interest in you as a person. It is till courteous an.d you have no grounds for complaint. I once asked a woman friend who has seen me in male and female outfits what she saw when I first come into view in a dress. She thought for a bit and said "I see a very elegant .... person". How can anyone complain about that? I accept that people probably don't see me as a woman, but since I don't see myself as a woman that is not a problem. I think there are a lot of women out there who are actively nice to crossdressers - I am not going to fight that. We can't fight other people mentally labelling us anyway.

[DaisyLawrence]

In my area as I drive down the street I see males with baseball caps turned sideways, baggy out of pants foot ball jerseys, pants below their butt so they can hardly walk, freaky hair and I wonder. How can society be O.K. with this? Doesn't a nicely dressed crossdresser look better. If you aren't showing to much skin is all forms of dress accepted today. Is the first I described more accepted than a MtF CD, if so why. Is it because we are crossing the gender we are born with and for some reason this is a no no???? Maybe it's time to re-think where we fit in??????????????

Valid points/questions Deebra and I think the answer is that crossdressers are more accepted than you think and these other types of presentation to which you refer are probably less accepted than you assume. No-one I know would have a problem with a 'well-dressed crossdresser' as you describe BUT they would all, without exception, criticise the young man with his pants halfway down to his knees and his underwear hanging out thinking he looks cool.

[Teresa]

Rhonda,
Thats the question what is default for most people , I don't believe gay is the first thought anymore , that appears to have faded which I'm pleased about because it was very much a carry over from the media . I would say TS is possibly nearer the mark .

The temptation to ask is always there but does that suggest we are unshure of our identity , still looking for validation ?

I must admit when I returned to my old home town to see the members of my painting group at the exhibition veiwing day no one spoke to me , eventually I asked the leader of my group if he was going to speak to me , the penny then dropped a female member told me she kept seeing me across the gallery wondering who the pretty lady was so she was surprised when I spoke . I didn't use the word pass because my voice and maybe my hands would be the tell tale signs .
I had to smile at the female SA in the Screwfix store , on my first visit I was dressed on my second I had to go in drab , she asked why the change because she prefferred my dressed state , she thought it was great .

So what labels do we use ? I guess using a reasonable femme name is all you need , I've kept mine simple by using my female version of my male name , I'm finding using my shortened form very workable Terri rather than Teresa . They are perfectly happy to make that change at my GP's surgery as it doesn't need any paperwork to make the alteration . I can do the same thing when I donate blood .

Possibly the best way to deal with it is don't say what you are but who you are and let them make the choice .

Susan,
No it doesn't really matter sometimes the question pops into my mind but I do try and see myself as a woman , somedays it's harder to see past the male image , often if you feel a litle down . Once the makeup has gone on and settled the wig , I'm happy to take on the World as Teresa , it gets easier everytime I do it or possibly I'm less and less concerned about what people do think . That is another lesson I've learned , don't keep looking for an reaction and very often you won't get one .

[sometimes_miss]

'Most' people in the world consider us gay. Now then.

Thats the question what is default for most people
What you are asking, is what is the most likely response if you interact with someone.
So, it then becomes, most people, where? In San Francisco, or somewhere in the poorest, most religious sections of the middle east? You'll get very different possibilities for 'most' depending upon your location at the time of the incident.
Same with the age of the people responding.
Most old people? How old?
Most young people? Under what age? 5? 15? 25?

Each 'most' will result in a different answer to your question.

[Jaylyn]

Around my part of Texas if you were out and about you'll be treated like your gay. They wouldn't know what CD means. You would also probably be the talk of the Garden Club, the firedepartment and more than likely they'll pray for your soul at church on Sunday's. West Texas is just not as accepting yet but still there are a few that brave the majority and go about their business. They are mostly in the bigger towns.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
This question is relevent to most of us , if you wanted to put that slant on questions it would apply to many we ask on the forum , I'm sure you understood the basis of my comments , they apply to most of the UK and I'd think most in the US .

I can't think the divide is so great between the UK and the US otherwise we'd better ask for two more sections on the forum , one for US members and one for the UK .

[AllieSF]

Based on my experience for the last several years I believe strongly that the average person out their will see us as "Trans", short for transgender and maybe even transsexual. I have had many strangers ask me during a conversation when did I transition. My belief is also based on the increase in media coverage of all kinds dealing with Trans people. We are now in television/cable programs, fashion magazines, and little be little out and about in the real world. They see the word "Trans" all the time. So, they think "Trans" first and not CD, which is under the transgender umbrella, and most don't know what that means unless we explain it to them. After they think that they may definitely wonder if we are gay or not. Another thing is the the umbrella term for us is simple to use for them as it describes those people who dress as the opposite gender. I would bet that the majority of the people out there never met a crossdresser, so the lack of that and the lack of any specific media coverage of crossdressers pushes them to think of trans instead of CD. I personally never knew about crossderssing until late in life because I never knew any CD's and never saw or read anything about it. Now, I am talking about here in the USA. I would think that the UK would be similar, but I never lived there, so I really do not have any experience there.

[DaisyLawrence]

Yes Allie, UK is very similar to your description of US in this regard. Also, I no longer think people here have a default 'must be gay' reaction like that which Lexi describes. maybe years ago but no anymore.:)

[Gillian Gigs]

So much is evolving at a fast rate and it is hard to figure out where people are at today. The whole Katlyn Jenner happening has changed how many look at CD'ing, TG, or being TS. That is assuming that they know there is a difference. Then there are those who are so dense that they can't see past the end of their noses. How we are scene can have a lot to do with how we as individuals interact with the general public. I hate to say it, but I think that most people are so self absorbed that they neither care, or notice until you step into their sphere. I'm not sure whether that is good, or bad!

[t-girlxsophie]

I believe,with the exception of unwavering bigots,that more and more people are being better educated about the differences.perhaps through more exposure in the media.Or even through just conversing with us

Sophie

[reb.femme]

If Chilean red is on offer, with a peppery back flavour, count me in. :devil:

The UK is easy going in the main and as Trans gains greater exposure in the MSM and life in general, older people have come to accept that we are out there and that we aren't a threat. I'd say that I've had nicer smiles than grimaces from the people of Croydon. Plus it's the oft discussed point of self-confidence, that resonates with those we come into contact with.

Oh yeah, where are my manners? Hi Teresa. :)

[Teresa]

Reb.femme,
Hi stranger , long time no see !!

I get it with the smiles and I've had more hugs from people, women epecially since I've been out . As you may gather if you've lost touch so much has flowed under my bridge since your last appearance . Please PM me if you want to chat .

Gillian,
I'm not sure how much the Katlyn Jenner story affected the UK , but I agree with you about the labels they neither know or really care . Not sure about the dense ones they mostly see male or female and comment accordingly . I guess most of us are guilty of being self asorbed most of the time , perhaps the LGBT group have to make themselves more aware of their surroundings and who occupies it .

Allie ,
I'm sure you're right in that comment " trans " will cover it for most people and maybe leave it to us to fill in the blanks for them .

I can recall that conversation I overheard between a couple who debated my gender when they saw me drinking tea in a hotel lounge . The wife asked did he see that , when he asked what she replied that crossdresser , he argued she was wrong . So I guess recalling that story I've answered my own question we are possibly all seen as crossdressers , I hardly think she would have referred to me as a transgender or a transsexual person in that conversation .

[Allisa]

Teresa like you said as you go out more totally en-femme you come in contact with more people. From my own experience being out in public as my femme self(about 90% of my life now)I believe that my confidence and self acceptance shines thru and others just take me as I am. If they see a man in a dress than so be it, if they see a man who is dressed and acting as a female being than all the better as long as they show the respect that I show to them.If they want to use labels that's fine, I know who I am and I'm happy with myself. I have had my share of bigoted and small mindedness from others, luckily non violent but those words can hurt sometimes. I guess your question boils down to how educated the other people are with the terms being thrown around lately.

[Rhonda Jean]

deebra,

Nope. Nobody put me down. I can't remember anybody ever putting me down. On cashier at a convenience store I used go to a lot (to use the single bathroom) told me once that I could "offend some people". In 40+ years I think that's the closest to a put down I've ever gotten. I was just trying to find out what gave me away, if anything, in order to improve my presentation.

I am aware, though, that regardless of how freely I think I go about my business when dressed, there are places I don't go. At this point in my life I see no benefit in challenging that.

[Teresa]

Lisa,
If we must use labels we should possibly stick to recognised ones and not try to find new ones that may confuse the situation more . We need more mainstream celebs to come out , I know of a newspresenter in the UK who transitioned but it would be nice to see maybe a weather presenter and factual or documentary presenters rather than actors to be allowed to come forward . The media is a very powerful tool, showing TGs/TSs in normal everyday situations would help a great deal . OK there might be some discrimination as only fully transitioned TSs may be given the opportunity , is that inevitable or fair .

Much of this could change for us in the UK as the proposed 2021 national census may contain far more questions aimed at the LGBT community . What labels they use will be interesting , that may be a turning point with public recognition , I just hope they get the terminology right . I believe Australia has already gone down this road so I should do a little homework and check it out .

It's hard to say which way the US will go , I'll leave politics out of it but it does appear the are taking steps back and not forward at the moment .

Rhonda ,
It's all very new to me , I just keep pushing boundaries , it's part of my life now so I feel I have to take them on , I won't get another bite at this cherry not at my age .

[reb.femme]

Hi Teresa, Will do on the PM. Sleep beckons now though, up at 6.

[DIANEF]

My wife works for one of the largest retail chains and often serves 'the trannies' (her term) that come in to the store. According to her none of her work colleagues bats an eyelid when a CDer comes in, and so she says, almost no customers do either. I can only go on what she has told me but she is not prone to exaggerating anything.

[Kandi Robbins]

We here tend to worry too much about labels. You are a human being. You interacted with other human beings. It sounded like a nice encounter. Why on Earth would you over-analyze it? It is what it is, who cares what they perceived you to be? They seemed to find you to be a nice person, which I am sure you are. Enjoy it and move on to the next interaction, being who you are. Don't overthink it.

[Devi SM]

Well, talking about Chilean, this girl is one.
Now answering you question about how they see us, they don't see more labels than their own ignorance or experience.
I interact a lot now in femme and I'm not explaining to everybody what's for me the difference between a trasgender woman, how I identify myself, a transexual, a crossdresser, queer, transvesty etc.
It's like when they ask me where I'm from o answer I'm more from here than there, so there is Chile and here is the states, I wouldn't come back to live there. The same I'm now a transwoman not a man and I can't come back to be a man, what I am for them? Who cares?

[Ashley090]

Who are 'we' in this question? CDs? Tgs? Or everyone in lgbt? If I answer from experience in my country, then we, and lgbt are all called and labeled as weirdos, sick that need to be catched, put into insane asylum or killed, since we do not belong into society. That is general opinion, but there are ofc some exceptions. Here and in the world. People who support lgbt and are fine with it. People who even find us as interesting. Sadly those are very few.

[Becky Blue]

I think there is no default but there is a lot of ignorance out there. I would say on seeing a TGirl most people would simply think thats a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in blank depending on what is front of mind). So for example if the person had recently read something about Caitlyn Jenner then seeing one of us they would think that person is like Caitlyn etc... i don't believe people are deeply analysing us when they see us

[Beverley Sims]

Each time I go out I feel more confident and less awareof the bigoted looks I might get.

From the women I have come in contact with they all seem to want to welcome me into their club.

My wife is okay with it, but it took time. other wives are not so au fait if it is their husband, yet they will greet others with open arms.

So, I just don't know.

[AngelaYVR]

Apparently a lot of people assume I'm full time TS. If I get to know them better they're usually floored that I am a CD. I believe it most likely boils down to how well you present yourself (not as in passing but skill with makeup and clothing).

However, I still hear a lot of "is that a man or a woman" so a good number of people don't care at all, there are no fine distinctions, you're just a man in a dress.

[Leslie Mary S]

Just a side not to this interesting conversation. In my area of the south east US they still refer to the local LGBT clubs as GAY clubs. I also know that many of the local bands will not accept any offers to play at these club because of their fear as being a "gay" band. It is getting so you can even tell the educational level by how the person reacts to the subject. I will make a guess to say that the higher the socially educated and school education is the more accepting a person will be.

A comment from an area with a mixture of educational areas.

[kimdl93]

I’m quite sure there is no single answer. Th question itself suggests that we are all perceived in a single manner, but we know that individuals and segments of society and different cultures all vary in such perceptions.

[Stephanie47]

If a genetic male who is wearing women's clothing and identified as a genetic male how does one know the person's sexual identity without asking the person? The viewer may assume a lot of variables based on ignorance or prior encounters. Is the person a preoperative or post operative transsexual? A cross dresser? I would not know unless I were to ask. Then, what right do I have to ask such a question?

My personal observations is men and women who are transitioning have more acceptance in general society. Yes, there are many people who are not accepting at all, and, there may be more non accepting people in certain geographic areas and demographic groups, but, the consensus seems to accept the notion of a "person trapped in the wrong body." I do not see that acceptance being extended to men who wear women's clothing. Why not? Can you explain to a person "why you do what you do." I do not means how wearing women's clothing makes you feel. Or you like the colors or the fabric. But, what is inside you that has made you make the choice?

[AllieSF]

Who are 'we' in this question? CDs? Tgs? Or everyone in lgbt? If I answer from experience in my country, then we, and lgbt are all called and labeled as weirdos, sick that need to be catched, put into insane asylum or killed, since we do not belong into society. That is general opinion, but there are ofc some exceptions. Here and in the world. People who support lgbt and are fine with it. People who even find us as interesting. Sadly those are very few.

Ashley,

I respect your opinion, but I do not believe it based on my own experiences and that of so many members here who go out regularly wherever they are, including the rural south and places like Texas. I do not deny that people like you describe are out there and could be dangerous, but they are a very small minority in the general population and truly commit very few dangerous acts of violence. They are more harsh words than harsh actions, in my opinion.

[Fran in skirts]

Labels are for food in cans and bags not for humans in drab or drag or anything else. I do not like or use labels for people. As I no longer wear men's clothing but only woman's I have yet to have a bad day. I do not try to (pass) as a woman but dress like one. While I do not use make-up or wigs I have no problem with those who do we are who we are and don't let anyone try to make you into something you are not. We are cross-dressers. We do so at what ever level we feel comfortable with, some wear just womans undies others transition to female. So what ever level you decide is best for you HAVE FUN with it.

Fran

[Teresa]

Stephanie,
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning , the whole point is the public can't or won't differentiate between a man wearing women's clothes and someone in transition so their acceptance has to be the same unless we tell them otherwise .
Clothes are also slected by women on the same basis , designers are paid good money to give women clothes that feel good and look good , I personally have the same feelings and so do many others but how they feel and look isn't why we crossdress but it's a lovely bonus .

Leslie,
On the whole I find that's true . The one thing about crossdressing is that has no boundaries , not between rich or poor , religion , nationality or even genders . I do feel that is the one aspect that comes home more when we meet socially . We are all share being dressed as women in varying degrees but we come from a wide variety of backgrounds. It's a bond in life I never expected when stuck deeply in the closet , it's another aspect I really enjoy sharing with others .

Vanessa,
From a Chilean girl how does their wine rate with you ?

I must admit it does get easier once you adopt the no labels attitude , if the public don't need them why do we ? I'm just me or Teresa . The only labels I won't use here and wish to erase totally from my memory are the ones my wife uses !!!