As cross dressers do we really *understand* women?

[Charlotte7]

Let's start from the position that we're all here because we are drawn, in one way or another, to the feminine. As has been stated here many times before there is a trans spectrum and all of us, even those who are not here, and those who never dress, and would never dress, occupy a space on that spectrum. We are all individuals and we all do what works for us. As a group we should, as we all have many things in common, support and share experiences for the good of each of us.

It has also been said before that there are probably as many reasons that people cross dress as there are people who cross dress. We are not peas in a pod.

The one thing that we all have in common through is that something, somewhere triggers an interest in us, towards the feminine and the female. To put it slightly more bluntly we are all cross dressers because we all, to some degree or other, wear ladies clothes.

This isn't a choice that we necessarily make, it is often, (it was in my case), made for us. I was a regular cross dresser from the age of 4 which is well before I knew that cross dressing happened. In my case it just happened, I had an inner feeling of girl and I had to express it the only way I knew how. As such, this cross dressing life is the only life I know. Each and everyone of us will have our own 'origin' story and there will be common themes and also our own individual elements.

So, all of this, in one way or another comes down to how we feel, how we interact, how we perceive ourselves on the spectrum. For many of us, we want to *be* (that is experience, to feel, to express ourselves, not necessarily transition), the best woman we can be, our vision of the ideal woman. We are drawn to the silky, the lacy, the frilly, the loose and flowing, the mundane even, the everyday nitty-gritty of women's wear. But, this is where we start to diverge, how realistic is our vision of what the ideal woman is? Are we, in doing what we do, in striving to do this, in fact helping to perpetuate negative stereotypes that women have to fight against every day?

And our one big problem in all of this, ok, we have many problems, but the common thread that runs through this forum, the most often repeated bugbear that we all face is finding acceptance, not necessarily inner acceptance, but acceptance from society, and more close to home, family, friends and significant others.

But, and this is my question, how concerned are we, in our desire to be, to show the world, or to show ourselves as the best women that we can be, how concerned are we with what it is like, to understand the real life experiences of the world as lived by real world women? Because I think that is is one of the big areas where we as a group, not necessarily individually, but as a group where we fall down.

We have to remember that a bit over 50% of the population are women and yet, they are still have nothing like equality, even in our western society, never mind the rest of the world, we can start with our own backyards first. And having women on board, having women fighting in our corner could be a massive bonus for us, it could also help in the battle for acceptance that so many here seek in their own relationships.

But to do that, we need to see things from a woman's perspective, we need to empathise, with them, we have to understand the place in the world which we, that is men, men in general, allow them to have. There is a huge power imbalance in the world and we should play our part in being the solution.

I'm not going to be specific here, but it doesn't take very long if you read threads with open eyes, to find posts which demonstrate what I'm talking about here. It has been said, and I to some extent agree with this that one of the main problems of cross dressers is that we want all of the good bits of being a woman without any of the bad. There are many stories in the media at the moment which show the imbalance in the world between the sexes. I think that this is the kind of thinking which we could and should try to do something about and in so doing, we could advance our cause greatly. It's a win-win situation. But, it's not easy and it can't be done overnight. But, we can play out part in this.

I don't expect this thread to have a great or positive reaction but if it makes even one person think then it will have served it purpose.

[Helen_Highwater]

Charlotte,

Thoughtfully written piece.

So, starting with the title, "Do we understand women". I would say to a point yes but I also feel it's as much that we can emphasise with them through some shared experiences.

We can have sympathy with the "Aren't you ready yet" side of things. We know and understand the mechanics of trying to present that flawless look. While heels make legs look good, the feet take a different viewpoint. We know why clothes shopping takes as long as it does. Many many practical things that we have shared experience of.

Where we part company, as you rightly point out, is in areas such as pay and promotion in the work place, even getting through the initial job selection. While it's possible for us to experience, thankfully on rare occasions, misogynistic behavior, we nevertheless are aware if it, albeit for different reasons.

Last night I watched a program about domestic violence and schemes to tackle offender behavior. True there are cases of bullied , mistreated men, the victims of female aggression. However in truth it's women who make up the bulk of those who are victims so for the vast majority of us, we can't experience that.

We won't have the lifelong experience of unwanted sexual attention while out in public places. We won't have experience of so much that forms part of women's daily lives.

So understand, yes to a point. What I hope for is that with that level of understanding comes ever greater empathy from us that helps level the playing field for women. I have to declare and interest in that I have two daughters for whom I want the best out of life.

I'm sure someone with commen about positive discrimination negatively impacting men. Well perhaps they're the ones best suited to understand just what women have gone through for way too long.

[DaisyLawrence]

Charlotte you speak the truth of it.

The lack of empathy and understanding of real womens lives shown from the crossdressing community can be staggering at times. I think it all comes down to why some people crossdress. For example, a very great deal of M2F crossdressing is done for purely sexual stimulation with the participant having no gender issues or inate 'transness'. This is all fine and good but it hardly increases the participants likelyhood that they are empathetic of womens lot in society and it is unlikey to make them a feminist. In fact I would expect they are more likely to be sexist and misogynistic than your average bloke. Like it or not, much of the crossdressing community is represented by these types and it is often the first image in the mind of anyone when they hear of crossdressing.

For me, I don't wont to be the image of the perfect woman in my mind, in fact, 99% of my crossdressing is androgenous at best, effeminate male at worst. I do this because that is how I see myself, a feminist biological male with an empathy for all womanhood. My presentation is important to me because I want people, women in particular, to know that I am not the usual alpha male that they come to expect. By and large it works and people (well women at least) warm to it. However, as biological men we must all do as you say with regards to sexism and breaking down gender boundaries, regardless of whether or not we crossdress to any extent. You shouldn't need to experience sexual harrasment as a woman does to realise it is wrong and should be stopped.

Great post Charlotte. :)

[Rachelish]

Hi Charlotte

I hope your post doesn't inspire negative reactions. You make very valid points and raise some interesting questions which mirror much of my own thinking as I start to venture out more. Self-acceptance is one thing but we cannot expect any one 'correct' response from those around us, whether family, friends or the wider world.

On the (very occasional) forays I've made out into the open I do wonder whether I'm seen as: a freak, a threat to the established order, a pioneer for wider acceptance of TG people or an just individual just being who they want to be. I would hope the latter, which is closest to the truth.

I try to look as much an 'ordinary' woman as possible, but that's because that matches what I am striving for when I dress, not particularly to avoid negative reactions. However, I can see the possibility of situations where what someone wants to achieve in their expression is more at odds with how women generally present, and that might provoke the feeling that we are being insensitive. I'm not saying that's right, but how it could be perceived.

There is also a danger that our behaviour is seen as yet another way in which men have all the advantages. I.e., from a woman's point of view, not only do men have access to the better jobs, better pay, fewer family responsibilities, etc., but they even get to dress like us!

Personally, I don't believe that dressing as a woman brings us to an understanding of the whole experience of being a woman, and that we should be sensitive to that, but we are in a unique position to empathise in more ways than non-CDs. That should make us more aware of the injustices that women (still) suffer, and lead us to modify our behaviour, both dressed and in drab.

How we go about that is a difficult question. I try and go about my life with kindness and consideration to all, and I hope that's reflected in how I deal with people, as Rachel or otherwise, and in a small way, that helps to make the world a more accepting and fairer place for everyone.

Rachel

[Rayleen]

Rachelish,


I'm in the same thinking, for me it makes me a more caring person toward others now, my point of view.

[GretchenM]

What a wonderful post, Charlotte. And great responses so far.

I personally relate to this subject more like Rachel, but I also think of this in terms of the biological as well as the social and psychological. How you relate to it is, in my view, not nearly as important as whether you do relate to it.

Our brains have certain structures that exhibit a male form and a female form. Exactly how that influences our behavior is still mostly a mystery, but it is recognized that there is certain programming that we are born with that is linked to our sex. It has been found that those structures in trans people tend to exhibit an intermediate form to various degrees. Thus, if this fully pans out, that basic programming forms the foundation for fundamental behavior.

Therefore, males and females should exhibit some degree of difference in behavior and perception, but males should not be very good at "doing" the female thing and visa versa. But in trans people there often (not always) is a bit of that crossover in the behavior. Therefore, if you are trans and you have an intermediate brain structure then it would be expected that you would view the world differently from both male and female points of view; a kind of blended perception of social role. And that is often what is found in trans people. So, using this argument, crossdressers who are also trans to some degree should exhibit a degree of empathy for the situation females find themselves in these days with regard to the relationship to the more pure masculine male. But they should also be able to see the male perspective. Therefore they have the unique ability to see how the two can be blended into a single concept that supports each side in, perhaps, a more conflict free way than is currently the case in most modern cultures.

Perhaps humanity in general is choosing to shift a long standing and primitive male/female relationship where the male is dominate and the female subordinate to a relationship to a point where there is far more equality. I am not convinced that strong difference ever existed in primitive humans but where that did exist it was a social standard and not a biological standard.

I lean more toward the male/female relationship fundamentally being a collaboration for the purpose of insuring the survival of the offspring and therefore males and females, in a purely natural world, work together and that includes respecting each other. In other words, somewhere in history the idea of male dominance got planted by some ideology that elevated males to a very high status and pushed females down. Or maybe it was an outgrowth of an agricultural society that allowed this shift.

Thus, I wonder if the women's equality movement is actually an effort to get back to the kind of collaborative relationship that existed when we were hunter-gatherers but with a very modern kind of structure. Where do the trans people fit in this? Perhaps they understand the need for the shift in relationship because they can see what males and females have difficulty seeing which is the presence of a workable middle ground where male and female are stirred together in a constructive fashion rather than there be a rigid hierarchy that seems to have been growing for the last few thousand years. Of course, most of this is a speculative conclusion to an assembly of scattered bits and pieces of evidence that there is a fundamental difference between males and females with regard to their biology and it goes far beyond the differences in reproductive roles. Thus, I think transgender folks can play a role in showing others how one can blend the social and sexual roles in a way that results in a much more productive social structure without all the conflict and tension between the sexes that currently exists.

But it is also important to recognize there is a strong headwind in that trans is not well understood by the more pure forms of men and women. Thus, there is a suspicion that "we are up to something not good." Some probably are up to no good, but I think most trans people just want acceptance of their difference as a reflection of their blended neurology that even the trans people don't fully understand. But the fact remains that in some cultures trans people are not only accepted but play a significant and unique role in the society. The "two spirit" concept and tradition in some Native American cultures is an example of how trans people can be incorporated into a mostly male/female culture and social structure. Other cultures around the world are the same way.

But the trans people also provide a kind of billboard for the rest of the society that says, "Cooperation and collaboration is more productive than competition and domination." Perhaps the trans people provide a message that is read in the sub-conscious mind that says blending can work quite well. So, clearly it is the effectively blended sexes and genders in more "normal" people is workable and those who are trans are kind of mediators of the interactions between the sexes and perhaps can, and in some cultures, help keep the playing field more level for all in the complex social life of humans.

Thank you for bringing up this subject. Again, great post, Charlotte.

[suzanne]

Oh my, what a can of worms you've opened here. Sure, there are some fetishists among us, but I think they're in the minority. Most of us in the forum fall somewhere in the transgender spectrum which is a continuum ranging from zero (not feminine at all. Actually those people don't post here) to 100% feminine, which would be those undergoing MTF transition. This is NOT a yes/no binary. A person can have any combination of masculine or feminine characteristics. All are valuable human beings and all have their place.

I many cultures around the world, there are more than two genders. Indigenous North Americans use the term Two-Spirit, although non natives are discouraged from using this name. We are gender fluid, and we do have experiences and sensibilities that are relatable to both male and female. While I won't claim to know how a real woman thinks and feels, I think I understand a little. By the same token, I don't experience the world the way a "real man" does either. To me, a crossdresser is not what I am, but crossdressing is the behavior that expresses my gender fluidness. Maybe a distinction without a difference, but a real and significant part of me is feminine, and without it I am an incomplete human being. And so I dress regularly to give that side of me her freedom as well.

[alwayshave]

Charlotte, as to your title, I'm with Churchill's description of Russia applied to women, "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma." I try to understand women but I often cannot. I grew up in a home with 4 sisters, a mother, grandmother and great grand aunt, I cannot understand their emotion and views as hard as I try. I know I show more empathy toward women than a lot of men.

[char GG]

Just my personal opinion: No, I don’t think a CDer (not sure about trans) or any man could ever fully understand what it feels like to be a woman. If they weren’t raised as a girl, had the same school experiences as a girl, have the same biology as a girl, have the same work/ life experiences as a woman, it would be hard to fully comprehend how it feels to be a woman. Clothes do not make a woman. Heels, hair, perfecting the woman’s walk, voice, bra size , etc. does not constitute how it FEELS to be a woman.

Again, just my opinion but I would never, in a million years, say that a woman could fully understand how it feels to be a man. I may have opinions, but did not have the life experience.

[Beverley Sims]

When the speak to me in my native tongue I usually comprehend what they are saying.

Their reasoning?

That is a different kettle of fish and that is why as the person I am I spend a lot of time wearing dresses to fathom it out. :-)

It's like why do we dress, the answer is in the same book but I am still looking for it.

[Micki_Finn]

I have always been a fierce advocate for women’s equality, even before I dressed. I would not say that I have ever “fallen down” on Women’s issues. That being said, I have run across dressers who display attitudes and world views tainted with misogyny and cheuvenism. Often it’s either so ingrained or so subtle that the person doesn’t even know.

All I can say is, listen, be an ally, but don’t fall into the trap of thinking women need us to “save” them.

[Robertacd]

I think we only understand a very small part of what it's like to be a woman, the trials and tribulations they go through with clothing, shoes, and makup.

But as a very smart woman told me a long time ago. "There is a lot more to being a woman than clothes." Then she went on to list a number of issues and inequalities that women have to deal with on a daily basis.

We may feel some of their vulnerabilities as we go out in public dressed. But that's only temporary for us, they feel it all the time.

So as much as we like to think we better understand women, I don't think we do. We are just more accepting of their differences.

[Tracii G]

I think we better understand them to a degree and are more accepting in general.
Will we ever really know what it feels like? No because we will never be women in the pure sense of the word.
I guess one can go thru SRS and make all the changes physically but still you are not 100% female and never will be.
For me personally I doubt I will ever understand women and thats fine I can accept that.
I treat others as I wish to be treated and as an equal human being sex or gender makes no difference.

I have to wonder if men were ever supposed to understand women and women to totally understand men?
We were created differently were we not?

Here is food for thought:
If a man calls himself a feminist is he lying to himself or is he saying that because his GF/SO is a feminist?
Is he going along with her to keep the peace in the relationship?
If his GF/SO were an actual feminist she would have no use for him.
I say the latter because what I see at these womens marches is pure hatred for any male.I have been subject to their ridicule at a rally where I supported them.
It showed me what they are about and I want no part of it and the hate.
I'm done with hate and it never does anyone any good and somebody always gets hurt.

[Teresa]

Charlotte,
Quite a can of worms in this thread !

I know you made some generalisations , as you say we are all crossdressers but what a spectrum that covers . It's inevitable some aren't going to give a thought about the need to understand women , because they have no inclination , their behaviour may upset women but some may not even care .

For the TG community understanding may be related to how bad their GD is , I'm assuming the more the need to be a woman the more empathy and understanding they will show .

Personally it's a question I'm struggling with because the lack of understanding and acceptance from my wife over my TG issues , I'm trying not to be too biased in considering others .

As women are so different to attempt to understand them all is impossible , perhaps we can answer it better if we know how some understand us , it's easier for us to show empathy towards an understanding woman . I must admit I have been so surprised at the level of acceptance from women , I don't just mean in the retails sector , I can't say they see me as a woman perhaps it's more down to me not posing a threat , I'm seen more as a woman than a man and appears to be enough . To expand that answer to reply to the broader question my level of acceptance is spread right across family and friends .

To live a life totally as a woman is a tough one to answer , I believe now very few achieve that 100% , I simply say now I live life as Teresa and leave others to decide where I slot in . It will be interesting if and when I get my art group up and running because that will be totally as Teresa .

The equality issue is very clouded these days, with so many single parent famillies and in some cases the wife being the wage earner because she can earn more than the husband . As members of the TG community we may enter a very similar situation , we could experience many of the problems female workers have encountered , it could be debatable if all women would want us on the same playing field , that is more up to us how we presnt ourselves and interract with others .

We have to consider in our part of the World that we have the freedom to express all these issues , we may complain about our rights but in fact we are fairly free to do very much as we choose and dress as we feel . Lets face it much of this is relatively new even in our society, we aren't doing too bad in a very short space of time . It's only natural some are on board more than others .

All I know is I'm so happy to shake off the male straightjacket , I'm free now to explore my female trait/needs , to learn to be a partial woman is quite a learning curve , I can never expect to be 100% but in the process I hope I do consider and try and understand women but it is a complex World they live in .

[LilSissyStevie]

That's the trouble with groupthink. You start to think that people of some group all think alike. I don't think that women even understand how "women" think anymore than I understand how "men" think because "women" and "men" are abstractions and abstractions don't think, individuals do.

[Rachelish]

My presentation is important to me because I want people, women in particular, to know that I am not the usual alpha male that they come to expect.
Yep, me too.

[Alice B]

For the large majority of us the answer is NO. However, if you have been married or with the same partner for a long period, example my wife of 27 years, the answer is yes. I can now correctly know what her reaction is to almost all situations, including my dressing. I can easily read her emotions simply by the look or expressions on her face, or her choice of words. It makes life easier and more fun. I can dress without asking for permission and know what her reaction will be to my clothing choices.

[DIANEF]

Oh my, what a can of worms you've opened here. Sure, there are some fetishists among us, but I think they're in the minority. Most of us in the forum fall somewhere in the transgender spectrum which is a continuum ranging from zero (not feminine at all. Actually those people don't post here) to 100% feminine, which would be those undergoing MTF transition. This is NOT a yes/no binary. A person can have any combination of masculine or feminine characteristics. All are valuable human beings and all have their place.

I many cultures around the world, there are more than two genders. Indigenous North Americans use the term Two-Spirit, although non natives are discouraged from using this name. We are gender fluid, and we do have experiences and sensibilities that are relatable to both male and female. While I won't claim to know how a real woman thinks and feels, I think I understand a little. By the same token, I don't experience the world the way a "real man" does either. To me, a crossdresser is not what I am, but crossdressing is the behavior that expresses my gender fluidness. Maybe a distinction without a difference, but a real and significant part of me is feminine, and without it I am an incomplete human being. And so I dress regularly to give that side of me her freedom as well.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but Suzanne worded it better than I could.

[Robertacd]

For the large majority of us the answer is NO. However, if you have been married or with the same partner for a long period, example my wife of 27 years, the answer is yes.

You understand that one person, just like I understand my wife and it helps, but all women are different, and you don't know the rest of them that well.

[Sallee]

I guess to understand what it is to be aq woman, fab, you have to be an fab, but even then we as gender fluid or even transitioned, we can't' because we were not. It kind of like understanding what it is like to be another person any person. you can't because you're not them. We has gender variant people maybe we can understand what it is like to be cat called or be discriminated against but still you can't understand what it is like to be some one your not. Just understand what it is like to be you and that will be a good step forward

Great thread

[Gillian Gigs]

I can only speak for myself, in my youth I thought that I understood women, did I have a lot to learn! I started to understand women after I got married, or so I thought, and then a daughter was born into my life, again the learning curve changed. My mother was someone who was probably a feminist, she raised me to try and I say try, to understand women, but more importantly accept that women had valve and their opinions were important to the overall schemes of life. The key to understanding, is to listen with both ears and talk less to find out why they do the things they do.
My Cd'ing has little to do with understanding women. I can know how some article of clothing fits, but whether you are a man or a woman, that starts in-between the ears. I remember a trans FTM sharing how they only started to understand the male mind after they were on testosterone and felt its effects on the mind and body. From what I have read on this site about trans MTF, and their taking estrogen, I would say that only after the mind changes due to hormones, only then can anyone start to understand how someone of the opposite sex thinks, acts and why.

[susan54]

Some excellent words there. Char GG hit the nail on the head. Women are so much more than their outfits. We cherry pick - we don't get the glass ceiling at work, the witless remarks from men in the street (OK some of us do but women get it way more), being patronised by men, being harassed by men, periods, being written off for getting older - the list goes on.

Yes, we understand why it takes so long to get ready and why so much luggage is needed on holiday. But beyond that we might try to understand but I don't think we can. You don't need to wear women's clothes to be aware of the need for more women's rights. The best way to improve our understanding of women is to spend time with them and LISTEN. Yes, there are many women who are actively sympathetic to crossdressers and supportive but I can't see how that improves our understanding of women.

I am heterosexual but try to treat women with respect. Unlike many heterosexual men I actually LIKE women. I prefer their company to that of men. Women are different and in general better people than men. Vive la difference - and that difference will continue no matter how similarly we might be clothed.

[Micki_Finn]

Stevie got the nail on the head here.


That's the trouble with groupthink. You start to think that people of some group all think alike. I don't think that women even understand how "women" think anymore than I understand how "men" think because "women" and "men" are abstractions and abstractions don't think, individuals do.

[Stephanie47]

I have to agree with Char. Unless you have lived in a person's shoes or heels you really don't have a clue how a person feels. You can imagine it, but, you'll never live it. The only thing I can say is a person may have had a similar experience, but, not the same experience which leads to a greater empathy for the person. When I fumbled for words to express myself during one of those "Talks" and said something about 'my inner woman,' she shot back "When you can have a baby tell me about your inner woman!" She had a point.

Without getting into any politics one of the things that raised my ire was some men, and, yes, some women, basically could not understand the long lasting effects of a sexual assault. Very dismissive they were. However, as a survivor of combat I have a deep understanding of the longevity of the ill effects of traumatic experiences. My experiences give me total empathy and understanding of what women in our society have to endure on a continuing basis. It's the same with trying to identify with the daily plight heaped upon my African-American son-in-law. As a white male I cannot comprehend his thought patterns. I have not and cannot live his life. Nor can I live the life of a woman.

[CynthiaD]

The first thing you have to understand about women is this: There are around three billion women in the world, and no two of them are alike. Even if you come to understand one woman perfectly (and you never will), it won't help you to understand all women, because they're all different. Do you understand all of your male friends perfectly? No. Because they're all different, and they're all different from you. Do you even understand yourself perfectly? I don't. I continually amaze myself with the stupid things I do, and often don't know why I did them. I have to deal with a lot of people problems in my work, and it's important for me to dig through other people's thought processes to understand how they got to where they are. It's always an adventure, and it doesn't matter whether the person is male or female. What's important is to try to understand other people's thought processes. This will help you understand a lot of things, but it won't help you understand everything. People will continually surprise you. Thank goodness. It would be soooo boring if we were all alike. It's also important to remember that we're all flawed in some way or another and accept others with all their foibles. If you can do that, it won't matter if you understand someone perfectly. And it won't matter if they don't understand you.

[phili]

This has been interesting, since I spent so much of my life thinking that the divergence of men's and women's worlds was due to differences between men and women. The more I 'cross' into their land the more I see them as female, but otherwise very similar in range to types of men. That hasn't cured me of wanting to be feminine in ways we associate with women, but find many females don't want to be feminine in the ways we associate with being female, as it confines them the way being masculine confines me.

That said, it is reasonable to try to understand and feel in ways that females do and men don't, which is maybe the way the OP is meant. We obviously can't feel whatever comes with ovaries, but we can feel what it is like to be flat-chested.We can feel what it feels like to swing our hips and walk in heels, and understand how it feels when people turn their heads to look. It is more difficult to feel free emotionally, if that was trained out of us. There are females who have the same problem. I know what it feels like to be a fearless male protector, and having spent enough time letting myself slip into womanhood, what it feels like to be dependent and weak relative to men. Each element of men's and women's lives can be broken down like that.

[DaisyLawrence]

For the large majority of us the answer is NO. However, if you have been married or with the same partner for a long period, example my wife of 27 years, the answer is yes.

Exactly. My wife of over 30 years is my understanding of women. We have known each other since childhood and been together since teenagers and we know how each other think in a way I can not put into words. A bit of crossdressing is irrelevant to any greater understanding of women. Is a single crossdresser any more likely to empathise with women anymore than than a single none-crossdresser? Char (GG) got it right as usual. A bit of female presentation is not the same as experiencing a lifetime as a woman from birth. I will, however, stick to my earlier point that all men need to try to understand the lives of women (as far as that is possible) and to strive to make them equal and without fear of harrasment, regardless of what they are wearing at any one time.

[Charlotte7]

There have been some very good responses to my original post and I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate so far. When I put up the original post my idea was not about can we 'feel' what it is like to be a woman, I don't think we can, and it was not 'do we understand what it is like to be an individual woman', it was more to do with the wider role that women have in society, a society largely created by men, for the benefit of men.

As was pointed out, men aren't the main victims of domestic violence. Also, men are not murdered because they don't follow some cultural expectations. We also have to wonder, (well it's obvious really) why some countries have a shortage of girls born, when girls should be in the (slight) majority of births. Men aren't subject to FGM, there is so much more.

Why are there so few women in politics, leading big companies, even occupying places on the boards of big companies? Why are women disproportionately employed in the lowest paid jobs?

If we bring this debate closer to our own interest, why are most college and university places on fashion and deign courses taken by women, but the big fashion brands predominately run by men? At the end of the day, who decides what women should (or even can) look like?

I know there is a big desire for many here to wear heels, and for many here heels represent one of the essences of femininity, but are they? Heels are something which when worn excessively can cause harm, and yet women wear them, through choice? I don't think so? Through comfort? Almost certainly not. Through a pressure to conform? Yes, I think that this is the answer.

I recently had a conversation with someone about heels and this is what they said, "No I don't wear heels, why would you? They are a physical representation of the sexual objectification of women, period. Furthermore they hurt, damage feet and can only be worn by people with big feet and they are always tall in the first place, even women. At 5 foot, I might like to wear heels to special occasions but with size 3 feet a 1" heel is high!"

I recently read this on another thread on this forum "but the basic problem is many women don't like their figures" which does get quite close to the point and is a good point, however, rather than addressing this head on, rather than pointing out the reason for this is the enormous pressure that women and girls are placed under to conform to an unachievable ideal woman, the poster went on to say how women admired her legs, how they wish they had legs like that.

Now, this may be true, but my point is that we shouldn't be celebrating that we look better in a skirt than a women, but more, we should be trying to help create a world in which everyone can be happy as they are. On the same thread a poster said that they were surprised at the number of women who say they can't wear heels. Heels, again. Most women can't wear heels because they are uncomfortable and over long periods of time, they damage feet, and yes, some women do wear them, and yes, some women don't end up with damaged feet, but whilst you will see pictures of glamorous celebrities arriving on the red carpet in heels, you don't see the same attention paid to the 000s of ordinary women whose feet are ruined trying to chase a dream.

There was one reply to this thread that was not unexpected, and did disappointment me due to its lack of empathy with the need to improve women's rights and equality between the sexes. All I can say here is that if a group of society is protesting because they feel they are excluded from being equal members of that society (and they clearly are) then, I see it as an incorrect position to adopt in saying I want no part of what they are fighting for as they hate me.

I think that a better position to adopt is to listen as to why they hate me and then to act on those concerns.

Which brings us back to my original question, that should we, as cross dressers be more supportive of women's inequality, women's rights and the their place in society? I think that we should, as for us, on the road to our acceptance, I see that as a win-win situation.

[DaisyLawrence]

Spot on Charlotte.

Regarding your last point, yes we should but then again, as I said before, so should all men. The author Helen Boyd found the most frustrating thing about crossdressers, when you think of them as a minority group looking for acceptance, is how insular the community can be and how they distance themselves from other minority groups looking for exactly the same thing. She points out that these other groups, essentially the lesbain and gay community, have fought for their rights and know how to do so, they have empathy and understanding for the acceptance that a crossdresser seeks in society and yet what does the crossdressing community do? Do we embrace their offer of inclusion? Do we stand together with them, with feminists, with all other minorities looking for acceptance? Many don't. In fact, one of the single most common phrases on this, yes this, forum is "I am straight", like that is of any relevance what-so-ever to crossdressing. So yes I agree, I for one dream of a time when I click 'what's new' and I see less of the panty threads, less about 'how you love heels', less about being the perfect visual representation of the 'perfect' sexy woman, less about how short is too short for a skirt at your age, and less about how most of us are straight here. This behaviour is the polar opposite of feminism and at times plain homophobic and is NOT the way to garner support for our desire for acceptance in society. If a crossdresser is annoyed that people think of crossdressers as being weird then the solution is to stop being weird.

[Helen_Highwater]

If you ask of someone, "Do you understand how a car works" what you're asking is a generality. While they all function to certain basic principles not all cars are identical in size and these days s/w.

This is how I read the post. I know I'll never feel that which a GG feels. I lack the upbringing to say the least and more inportantly those instincts provided by evolution. I've also don't feel the same day to day societal pressures. I don't pretent either that I'll ever fully understand what it's like to be a woman. What I believe is I have a greater empathy for women than many other males and that if nothing else is a good starting point.

Charlotte is absolutely correct in saying we here should do all in our gift to support the furtherance on woman's rights. In the same way the progress made by the Gay community has benefited us suppoting women's rights will lead to a yet more open society. That will further aid our cause. Setting aside any gains for our community there is the matter of simple human justice.

[sometimes_miss]

As was pointed out, men aren't the main victims of domestic violence.
Not PHYSICAL violence. But women tear into us psychologicolly often.

We also have to wonder, (well it's obvious really) why some countries have a shortage of girls born, when girls should be in the (slight) majority of births.
In nature, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, this is true all over the world. The places where it is different, is due to aborting the females before they are born, in order to have a son.

Why are there so few women in politics
Because fewer women WANT to go into politics.

leading big companies, even occupying places on the boards of big companies? Why are women disproportionately employed in the lowest paid jobs?
Because success in the workplace has little to do with how successful a female is in passing along her dna to the next generation. So it's of less importance to most women.

If we bring this debate closer to our own interest, why are most college and university places on fashion and deign courses taken by women, but the big fashion brands predominately run by men?
Women care about their looks more, because men care more about what women look like than how successful she is at a job. Corporations are more likely to be run by men, because men are more likely to compete for the top most financially lucrative positions.

At the end of the day, who decides what women should (or even can) look like?
In the free world, it comes down to what a woman will think attracts those who she wants to mate with. Styles that enhance attraction succeed, and styles that repulse get dropped. Workplace attire in jobs where it's not at all important to be attractive, are the exception, exhibited say, by diving suits and scrub clothes of doctors and nurses.


I know there is a big desire for many here to wear heels, and for many here heels represent one of the essences of femininity, but are they? Heels are something which when worn excessively can cause harm, and yet women wear them, through choice? I don't think so? Through comfort? Almost certainly not. Through a pressure to conform? Yes, I think that this is the answer.
Women mainly wear heels to enhance the appearance of longer legs which is reminiscent of young, just 'past puberty' females, indicating fertility but limited exposure to disease, so it's probably got a genetic connection to it. Heels also change the shape of the leg and butt, in ways which often enhance the percentage of men who find that woman attractive.


"No I don't wear heels, why would you? They are a physical representation of the sexual objectification of women, period.
Simple. Women who wear heels get more sexual attention from men, so those women have a wider choice of mates.


"but the basic problem is many women don't like their figures"
Women aren't satisfied with their figures, because they aren't able to adequately attract a particular man or group of men. This is most evident when a woman is trying to attract a guy who isn't interested in her body type. It also comes into play when she already HAS a male mate, who's interest is waning, so she might think by changing something about her body she may re-ignite the same passion that he had for her before. This goes against a male's natural impulse to have sex with as many different females as possible (the Coolidge effect).


the enormous pressure that women and girls are placed under to conform to an unachievable ideal woman
They pressure THEMSELVES into trying to be something they are not. There is no universal ideal woman. men vary in what we are attracted to. You might find Dolly Parton figures the best. I might prefer Twiggy. How is either of them the unachievalbe ideal woman? Simple. Women try to be something that they are not, in order to try to attract a guy who isn't interested in what she is. Instead, it would be better for her to choose a mate out of those who DO find her attractive, just as it is better for men to do this. I believe the old saying is, 'Barking up the wrong tree'.



they damage feet, and yes, some women do wear them, and yes, some women don't end up with damaged feet,
The problem with their feet, comes from wearing shoes that don't fit. Women put a priority on how a shoe looks, rather than how it feels to wear.


Which brings us back to my original question, that should we, as cross dressers be more supportive of women's inequality, women's rights and the their place in society?
The problem comes when we try to force what we think should be equal. For example, forcing girls into the stem fields whether they want to do it, or not, all because WE think that they should like to do that. You can't tell someone that they have to enjoy something. Either they like it, or they don't. Boys and girls tend to like different things. While yes, those choices should be available to girls, they shouldn't be mandatory for a certain percentage of them. I'd like to add, too, that if you're going to force women to go into stem fields in order to equal the numbers of women in those jobs, then, too, you have to force women into going into grave digging, sewer work, and garbage collection, too. Because women are far under represented in those fields, too. Would you feel comfortable telling girls that they have to go into one of those careers?

Our brains have certain structures that exhibit a male form and a female form. Exactly how that influences our behavior is still mostly a mystery, but it is recognized that there is certain programming that we are born with that is linked to our sex. It has been found that those structures in trans people tend to exhibit an intermediate form to various degrees.
^That study was, IIRC, dismissed when it was found that random non trans people had the same structural differences from the norm as well. So while some trans folks show changes, so to, do non trans folks.

That said, having grown up believing that I was really supposed to be a girl, I have watched and learned from the girls and women I've known. Then when the studies started coming out describing the differences between the sexes involving how we experience life, how we communicate, how we see the world, how we bond, and so many other things, I read everything I could find on the subject. And I understand a lot of the differences between us.
But the big thing? We cannot know, what it's like growing up female. We can read about it, we can talk about it, we can get women's tales about their lives, and explanations of how they try to describe it.

But we can never really know. Just like we cannot fathom what it's like to spontaneously burst into tears for no reason, or get angry for no particular reason, other than due to hormone fluctuations. My ex admitted to these, and more, feelings, but told me that she was aware of why she was feeling like that, and did her best to control her responses. A couple of youtube women have mentioned the same thing. This goes against everything that feminists tell us, because they don't want to be seen as people who are emotionally unstable due to their naturally cyclic hormone fluctuations; and that's perfectly understandable. Some of them are, and some, not. We have to judge each person as an individual.

Both men and women are prone to behaving in irrational ways, due to various hormone driven influences on our behavior.

My own problem with all of this? I forget; When I see a woman behaving as I would behave, apparently without any emotion connected to it, I tend to forget that what I'm seeing isn't what's actually happening 'underneath the hood'. While our behavior will appear the same, what she's thinking while doing it, and what I'm thinking, can be very, very different things entirely.

So. Do I understand them; or rather, can I understand them? Yes. Do I always remember to figure out everything that she might be feeling at any given time? No. I still sometimes just take everything at face value.

[Rayleen]

Understanding women ? not really , but they are still a mystery even after 40 some years.

Respecting them as equal, Absolutely

[SaraLin]

I'm going to keep my answer pretty short...

do I really *understand* women? Um, probably not really.

But then again, I also don't really *understand* men, sports fans, goths, religious or political extremists, hoarders, teenagers, asian culture, etc.

That's OK. I'm sure they don't really understand me either.

Now I DO find my interests and feelings more closely aligned with women than most of those others.

[GretchenM]

You are right on, Charlotte. We should support the efforts toward women's equality, even though we are not women. Trans people are not female or feminine in the fullest sense, but we do have an inkling of what it is like to be a genetic woman. There are a lot of men who also support women's equality; you just don't hear about them very much because the squeaky wheel (those who want to keep women in a subordinate position) is drawing the attention. As others have said, the only person you can potentially understand is yourself and even that is pretty challenging sometimes. It is not really an either/or situation. Support through empathy, sympathy, and compassion does not require complete understanding - it just requires an appreciation and recognition of female/feminine value being equal to male value in the total picture, whether that picture is a family structure or a social structure. And you don't have to be trans either. It helps a little, but it is not a prerequisite.

As for the differences between male and female brains and trans often being found to be somewhere in between in the structure, research in the last couple of years on how the sense of gender identity is generated and makes it from the various structures in the computational part of the brain into the reasoning part of the brain (frontal and prefrontal cortex) has confirmed the original research done about 14 to 16 years ago. In fact, with functional MRI it is possible to actually watch the information flow from primarily the mid brain into the right fronto-parietal lobe (the facts and figures part) and combine with the more subjective information from the left fronto-parietal lobe (where it appears consciousness resides) and into the frontal lobe. Consciousness seems to be greatly linked to the language center in the brain and therefore consciousness may be dependent upon structured, symbolic language development.

Mixed into that gender sense is the sense of body ownership. There is still a vast amount to be learned about this information flow, but everybody's sense of gender comes from the same places in the mid-brain and is blended with other information coming from other parts of the brain. This does seem to be fairly universal in mammals, but is also found in other groups such as birds that also have their individual form of a mid brain with very similar structures. So, a sense of gender and the associated behaviors is an ancient feature. But some kind of conscious awareness of that sense of gender is a rather recent feature and perhaps only associated with mammals that have a fairly well developed neocortex surrounding the mid brain where the fundamental sense of gender is created and transmitted to behavior controlling portions of the brain as well as language and some degree of reasoning power.

Just wanted to clarify that. Sorry about getting so technical but the last few years has seen a huge increase in the amount of research on the neurological foundations of self identity. Some really exciting research is going on and possible answers are being found that could explain why we are the way we are, whether cisgender, transgender or some other kind of gender. In short, the ability to look down at still water, see your reflection, and actually recognize it is you and not some human preparing to leap out of the water and attack you. That is a really rare talent.

[Jenny22]

Understand women? No. Experience, empathize and come to understand many of the physical things they feel, because we've experienced same, YES.

[Teresa]

Charlotte,
Just the pick up on the comments women have made about not wearing heels , some were genuinely disappointed that they couldn't wear heels or a dress or skirt . I wasn't implying I looked better what did impress on me is they wanted to do so simply to feel good in themselves and not to adhere to social pressures . The pressure is not so much being an ideal woman but finding an ideal partner . I feel sometimes women have given up , what is the point of getting dressed up for a night out when dear old hubbie brushes his jeans off , slips on his old trainers and announces he's ready . Indeed it is a man's World in many ways .

I personally don't feel we make bad partners , if you read many of the threads many of us go through so much to please our partners possibly far more than a non Cding male would . We care far more about family issues because we are more sensitive to them , we care how out partners look because we can relate to them .

I did post a thread suggesting on a daily basis that there isn't a huge difference between men and women , we all do many of the same jobs we all deal with the same problems in much the same way . I appreciate there isn't total equality but in our culyure it is often swings and roundabouts . If we really want to make changes then we must look to cultures that truly treat women like second class citizens , there are parts of the World where not only women but minority groups sometimes fear for their lives .

[sometimes_miss]

I feel sometimes women have given up , what is the point of getting dressed up for a night out when dear old hubbie brushes his jeans off , slips on his old trainers and announces he's ready . Indeed it is a man's World in many ways.
Simple. Women are always aware that their primary value is often perceived to be in how physically attractive they are. Men aren't primarily valued for our appearance; we are judged more for what we do and have done, not how we look.


I personally don't feel we make bad partners , if you read many of the threads many of us go through so much to please our partners possibly far more than a non Cding male would . We care far more about family issues because we are more sensitive to them , we care how out partners look because we can relate to them.
Doesn't matter; the problem we most often have, is that we turn those women off, sexually. Women want a man that she's sexually turned on by. Otherwise, you may as well be her brother. Crossdressing in men seems to be almost universally, a sexual desire killer to women, because it assigns to us the feminine, submissive, description. And once the sexual attraction is gone, so, too, is the romantic feeling type of love. She might love you like a brother, but not like a mate.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
Women do like to be treated like women sometimes and be taken out by a someone who has made an effort . I feel the trend is now if you can't beat then join them so women are tending to dress down .

The sexual aspect works both ways after the menopause many women lose all interest so some of us end being no more than a brother and a mate anyway my Cding was just the excuse my wife needed .

[Ineke Vashon]

How refreshing to have a serious discussion on a challenging subject, instead of "what color panties are you wearing today?"

Excellent thread,:thumbup:

Ineke

[Kelly DeWinter]

Yes, I do understand women, but as a human being. I've always felt that narrowing ones perception of someone else through a condition (whether it' s crossdressing,race,creed,color,religion,etc) limits ones ability to empathize with that person. Yes there are limitations, but its not for trying. By the way my wife disagrees with my statement LOL

[JeanTG]

To be brutally honest with myself, I have no clue about what it's like to be a woman. Much of womanhood is beyond our biological grasp, even if we transition.

What I do understand however, is what it's like to be feminine. Femininity is but one attribute of womanhood. I've met many a woman who is absolutely and unequivocally a heterosexual woman and mother, but isn't at all feminine. But being feminine, in itself, does not make one a woman.

It's kind of a self-revelation that has put a damper on my CDing actually. No longer being able to fool myself that I am a woman was sort of an epiphany for me. I haven't dressed since (mid-July). I don't doubt for a minute that I *will* dress again some time, but it just doesn't seem to be a priority right now. If I do, it will no longer to try to be what I am not, but just for fun and the expression of my affinity for femininity.

[Helen_Highwater]

Not PHYSICAL violence. But women tear into us psychologicolly often.

What???and men never use those same techniques??? I hesitate to directly criticise someone from the forum but I feel I have to say this made me respond that such replies are a representation of the misogyny women are bombarded with on a day to day basis. The, men aren't to blame, that pervades our culture.


In nature, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, this is true all over the world. The places where it is different, is due to aborting the females before they are born, in order to have a son.

Why isn't the ratio perfectly even? Well, it is in the United States, all of Europe, Australia and many other developed countries (in fact, these countries have slightly more adult women than men).

The small bias toward males that remains in the sex ratio of the total world population probably results from social factors: abortion of female fetuses and gendercide in Southeast Asia and much of the Middle East, where, in general, there is a strong cultural preference for males.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm sorry to jump in. I couldn't get thru your post so I'm responding ONLY to your header:

Do we ever really understand anyone? Even ourselves?:brolleyes:

[sometimes_miss]

What???and men never use those same techniques??? I hesitate to directly criticise someone from the forum but I feel I have to say this made me respond that such replies are a representation of the misogyny women are bombarded with on a day to day basis. The, men aren't to blame, that pervades our culture.
What I wrote was simply a reminder, that women aren't all the angels that you might think they are. Because of their lesser physical prowess as well as influences from society against their using physical violence, females learn early on how to abuse others verbally, instead. In fact, you can probably find right here on this forum, plenty of men whose SO's have said manipulative or insulting things in order to make us feel bad about ourselves; and it works.


Why isn't the ratio perfectly even? Well, it is in the United States, all of Europe, Australia and many other developed countries ([B]in fact, these countries have slightly more adult women than men
I'm not sure where you found your data. Every source I've ever read shows that more boys are born than girls. While no one knows exactly why, it does sort of even out over time, as more boys die in infancy, and more boys than girls die throughout life until old age.

[Alice Torn]

Right on Tracii G. I am sick of hate, no matter who is spouting it.

- - - Updated - - -

Even women cannot really understand what other women think and feel, because every human being is a bit different. I ama HIGHLY SENSITIVE PERSON male, and very different than most men, and more emotional and feeling, and some men think i may be gay, but i am not. I am saddened that so many women have been taught to go too far, and become loud, rude, foul mouthed, "in your face". and macho, and mean, like too many males are. I know many many women now, who will not own a dress or skirt, nor high heels, or any dressy clothing. I know there ae sophisticated ladies who still try to look smashing in dresses, hose and heels, but i see not very many at least in my age range. I am 64, and in the small midwestern towns where i live, I very seldom see women in dresses, hose and heels. About the only dresses i see, are Amish women in long 1870's style dresses! I guess in the big cities, you will see a lot more women in skirts, dresses and heels, but not like you did 50 yrs ago. I think hose and heels are the things which really attract male attention, at least mine! I still do not understand women though much! I see some women in the cities in dresses, skirts, hose and high heels, and i feel that if i look too long, they will be offended. I wonder sometimes why some do dress that way, if they do not want guys watching, when we hear the sound of their high heels. It is ironic. bI willo never completely understand, but, when i have been out in public dressed up, I think i have felt some of what they must feel.

- - - Updated - - -

Jean TG, i could not have said it better!! Thank you for clarifying this. Totally agree! I ama male, and despite being highly unusual and super sensitive, far more than most men, and having the ability to dress up, and act "feminine" for a time occasionally, I will never be a woman, or know very much how one is, but we are fellow humans with women, and similar in some ways. But no two people , male or female thinks exactly the same. Like Doc said, i don't even think we completely know ourselves, even!

[Rachelish]

Boys and girls tend to like different things. While yes, those choices should be available to girls, they shouldn't be mandatory for a certain percentage of them. I'd like to add, too, that if you're going to force women to go into stem fields in order to equal the numbers of women in those jobs, then, too, you have to force women into going into grave digging, sewer work, and garbage collection, too.*
There's a lot wrong with this sort of thinking. I don't think anyone is suggesting that women and girls are forced into positions they don't want. It's about having the same opportunities, and that is affected by historical dominance of men in certain fields. The example of STEM is one that I am familiar with as I've worked in software development all my life. The early days of programming saw a lot of women in computing, partly driven by existing keyboard skills, and there were many around when I began working in the early 80s. One key change at the time was the introduction of home computers which were marketed primarily at boys and dads, and that influence is still apparent today. Just look at the gaming community and GamerGate. These are cultural influences but they have profound consequences with women missing out on great career opportunities. It's also a loss for the IT industry as a lot of talent is missed.

I reject the notion, famously made by our PM, that there are "boys' jobs and girls' jobs".



Women care about their looks more, because men care more about what women look like than how successful she is at a job.
Hmm, I'll run that one past my wife. On second thoughts, maybe not.


Because fewer women WANT to go into politics.
That's like suggesting to the suffragettes that women don't really want to vote.

And don't get me started on heels :)

[DaisyLawrence]

How refreshing to have a serious discussion on a challenging subject, instead of "what color panties are you wearing today?"

Yeah that.

------------------------------

Lexi (Sometimes-Miss) I know you truely believe that everthing anyone ever does anywhere and at anytime is driven only by the evolutionary need to shag or be shagged by the highest possible number of the best possible members of the opposite sex, but, and it's a big but, modern society is not actually that simple (maybe for you but not for the rest of us). Is it not possible that a woman may squash her feet into crippling and damaging high heels not because she wants to get the biggest willy available but because she feels society expects it of her or maybe she does it for herself for the way it makes her feel because she thinks society is impressed by it? OR do you really believe that every single woman that ever put on some high heels was determined to be penetrated before she takes them off? Even the happily married middle aged ones that have not looked at another man in 30 years? Really, I've read it all now.

------------------------------

Tracii, while I generally agree with you on this occasion I differ. Men, as women, can be feminists without being a hate figure. Yes those feminists you describe do exist but it is not representative of the principles of feminism, the simply belief that men and women are equally valued and respected by each other. You'll always get extremists with any 'ideology' but it does not mean sensible moderate people can not sign up. The type of event you describe will always attract extremists so you were onto a loser from the start. As men, the question we should ask of ourselves is why do some feminists become the seemingly men hating extremists that they do. I've met meny men that I would say are the root cause of that extremism and it is to them I direct my disrespect.

[Teresa]

JeanTG,
Look at it the way I do , forget the labels , forget how much of a woman you might be and just go out as Jean . I accept I we will never pass 100% so go with what you have , do your best and let society decide , it has been a revelation to me since I adopted that approach how I'm being accepted by almost everyone . I'm finding people are friendlier and not the opposite as many fear on the forum .

[Charlotte7]

This has been an interesting thread as there have been at least two conversations going on at the same time. OK, I'll accept that a lot of that is down to me and a clumsy title as many have quite reasonably taking it to mean something else. But, I suppose if the original post had been read then the point that I was trying to discuss was obvious, but as has been said on another thread, many here look at the title, skim the posts and then post. On my part, lesson learned, I'll be more direct next time I post, and pick a tighter title.

You see, this thread, and there has been some very good discussion around this point, was that I feel that we as cross dressers can be guilty of cherry picking those bits of femininity that make us happy and yet ignore the everyday disadvantaged position that men, yes we cover a broad spectrum here, but this forum is for cross dressers, so in your posting here it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that, at least to some degree, we all still identify as men, that men place women in, in society.

I suppose in some ways people here may find that a challenging thing to do, to place themselves in the position of others and think how the world must look from someone else's point of view. And in this case I'm referring specifically to the position of women in a patriarchal society. You see, my take on all of this is that many women take a dim view of cross dressing, not because of it being, to their eyes odd or unacceptable behaviour, but because, we, men, are invading their, women's space.

I see the problem, not that we're seen by many as girly-men but that we're manly-girls. I think that a lot of this is evidenced here by what I refer to the panty, sex, heel threads which are both common and popular here. Could it not be that from a women's perspective, such threads which objectify specific parts of femininity and pay no regard to how such things are perceived in the real world by real women is what the big turn off for many women is?

That's the question that I'm trying to address here, that maybe, if we had a bit more empathy with what it's like for women as a whole in an unfair society, then women in society might find a bit more room for us?

[susan54]

I agree that it is good to have such an interesting topic to debate. I think we understand why women want to wear certain clothes to look good and it is NOT to attract a man for most of us and for a large number of women. Yes, there are women who dress to attract men but if you ask a woman why she dresses the way she does you will almost always be told she is doing so for herself. That is also why I do it. It is nice to look good in the mirror and feel good about yourself. There are women who dress conservatively but underneath have gorgeous underwear. No one sees thus underwear but themselves - it makes them feel good. I was at an evening function with a GG friend who had awesome shoes on. She loved them but said she couldn't wear them with men around. There were actually a couple of men in the room apart from me and I was in a dress - it was a fashion show and was not restricted to women anyway. She knew she would be in pain the next day (and she was) because of the shoes but she still wore them because she felt good in them. One of the reasons we became friends is because she loves clothes as much as I do - she is absolutely not attempting to attract men and enjoys getting compliments from women about what she is wearing. In fact one of my main enjoyable things about going out is getting compliments from women about my outfits and understanding why women want the same positive feedback from women is one more thing I have learned about women from crossdressing. Not huge in the great scheme of things. Men do not have the same relationship with make clothes and I have long felt that some women's clothes have a beauty in their own right but only come into that when someone wears them. Women can be incredibly talented about putting a look together with clothes, hair and make-up to the extent that they are actually art installations and some crossdressers - me included - aspire to this level of "getting it right" and completely understand why women might want to do so too. Am I claiming that this means I Understand what it is like to be a woman? Of course not - I haven't a clue. And I don't claim to feel feminine when I dress because I can't imagine what that feels like. I just know how it feels to believe I look good in a dress and heels. Not the context - just the look.

[Roxanne Lanyon]

Thereis a feeling one gets, as a woman. It is quite complex, but oh so lovely. A sort of adoration for femininity. I love this feeling. It makes everything else, love, passion, self awareness, being a lady, possible. And I do adore these possibilities!
Roxanne's World, Is Quite Lovely"
Roxanne

[DaisyLawrence]

I think that a lot of this is evidenced here by what I refer to the panty, sex, heel threads which are both common and popular here. Could it not be that from a women's perspective, such threads which objectify specific parts of femininity and pay no regard to how such things are perceived in the real world by real women is what the big turn off for many women is?

That's the question that I'm trying to address here, that maybe, if we had a bit more empathy with what it's like for women as a whole in an unfair society, then women in society might find a bit more room for us?

Those last three lines sum it up perfectly Charlotte. I couldn't agree more. I could reinforce it with my personal experience with regards to my totally accepting and encouraging wife. Whilst she loves my mixed gender approach to life there are still things that would be a huge turn off. She likes nothing more than to help me select clothing and styles but these invariably settle on the look of a comforatble casual everyday woman (just what I want myself). Never any feminine sex appeal (fine by me). If I am going out as the 'full Daisy' (a woman, not androgenous as normal) then it is the very smallest boobs possible, my natural hair, just enough makup to cover the facial hair, no short skirts or high heels, and so on. She loves it but if I suddenly decided I would prefer the sexy woman look it would turn her off completely, guaranteed. Items that objectify women as sex objects like high heels would be rejected with venom even though she has no problem with women wearing them if it works for them. I understand her thinking and fortunately we are of one mind about this. The result is the image of a person that says 'female' if you look hard enough to decide what gender you are dealing with, NOT one that says FEMALE. By and large, meeting other women out and about has nothing but a positive reaction if they do clock that they are dealing with a genetic man (usually when I open my gob). I doubt I would get the same reaction if I was strutting around in a leather mini skirt and 5" stilettos. Having said that, during daytime my wife would have the same contempt for a genetic woman dressed like that.

[GretchenM]

I have actually gone out and asked the women I know well (mostly relatives) why they dress in the style that they do? Invariably, the answer is essentially because it fits who they are. In other words it expresses who they perceive themselves to be in the whole package. It is practical and makes them feel right. I also asked whether there is any desire to dress so as to attract men? The answer is either rarely or never. Do men dress to attract women? I suspect the answer is pretty much the same as the women's answer - rarely or never.

My wife tells me that women in general tend to dress for practical purposes - that is, what they wear fits the situation. Sometimes that includes sexiness. Usually, that is not present. With myself, when I dress, whether it is fully dressed (rarely) or various degrees of androgynous expression, I put on what I put on because it fits who I am internally. I am not very concerned about what others see or feel. And I think most pure males do that as well. It is what is appropriate. I don't dress to feel feminine; I feel feminine long before I dress.

But that leads me to a conclusion that people should be allowed to be who they are. And to those men who think women should always express very feminine I say you are barking up the wrong tree. In fact, a study done many years ago that examined how gender characteristics affects marital success and happiness in women found that the most unhappy women were those who were married to strongly masculine men that limit her freedom to be herself. And the happiest women were those that were married to the more sensitive, caring, and understanding men. That is, the somewhat feminine male - not necessarily transgender, but men who are willing to show femininity when appropriate.

Makes sense as that kind of relationship is open, accepting, and full of at least fairly good communication. Conclusion? Men should lighten up on the restrictions on women and treat them with respect and allow them to be professional wrestlers or iron workers on the top of a 100 story skyscraper if that is what they want. And, women should do the same. Once again. Share, cooperate, collaborate, respect each other.

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
One question , when you discussed this topic with your wife did the point about the cycle of dressing down come into it ? Would your wife dress up more if everyone else still did ? I recall the days when budgets were tight and an evening out was something special , women appeared to love the opportunity to put something special on . Not because of social pressures but simply to feel good and a little special . I do miss the days when going out with my wife I could put on some nice trousers and shirt a nice tie and brush my shoes up , in some respects we were proud of each other , I hope we made an attractive couple .

I can remember when certain venues wouldn't allow the man in without a tie and no jeans and trainers were allowed , somehow I feel so many people have joined that culture and women have partly given up on femininity .She can't shift hubby off the sofa watching his sport and the kids all have their heads burried in games machines , so the easy solution is order a takeaway !

I don't fully accept the notion women were forced into heels because of social pressures , we all know what ceratin items we enjoy to make us feel special and maybe a little sexy , to me that's a female trait which many women would possibly like to return to .

[GretchenM]

Hi Teresa,

Very good question. Unfortunately, I did not inquire about that specifically. But after half a century together I can tell you that her gender expression has clearly followed the trend toward less feminine attire. Rarely a dress or skirt, her heels have to be excavated from a dust bunny (not really) and she only has one pair that gets worn once or twice a year if at all. Very different from the way it was back around 1970. That said she was always a trouser girl for the most part but more formal and feminine dress was much more commonly worn. She followed the trends and sometimes, I think, led the trends in clothes.

But as for her real femininity, that is, the internal identity that has changed very little and in fact has probably become stronger in some ways. In spite of our spending a week backpacking many, many miles around a wilderness several times in our younger days or climbing tough mountains in the Rockies, she has always been a pretty girly girl. So, this is where my own sense that distinguishes between gender identity and gender expression comes from. Identity is internal; expression is external and does not necessarily parallel the identity except when that is appropriate. Sometimes, my wife and I look somewhat similar when it comes to dress - she is usually casual female and I am usually casual male with a touch of the feminine. That might be a bit unusual in the UK, but here in Denver and the American West that is a somewhat common pattern that couples show except in somewhat or very formal settings. There males and females are usually very distinguishable.

Gretchen

[Stacy Darling]

Knowing that one is not a Woman, and Knowing that one does not wish to present as a Man, is KEY here!

Letting go of your pre-taught male ways, and embracing the more inner femme ways is not about changing the dynamics of the human race! It is about being who you are!

Politics, religion and sex aside!

[Charlotte7]

Not PHYSICAL violence. But women tear into us psychologicolly often.

In nature, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, this is true all over the world. The places where it is different, is due to aborting the females before they are born, in order to have a son.

Because fewer women WANT to go into politics.

Because success in the workplace has little to do with how successful a female is in passing along her dna to the next generation. So it's of less importance to most women.

Women care about their looks more, because men care more about what women look like than how successful she is at a job. Corporations are more likely to be run by men, because men are more likely to compete for the top most financially lucrative positions.

In the free world, it comes down to what a woman will think attracts those who she wants to mate with. Styles that enhance attraction succeed, and styles that repulse get dropped. Workplace attire in jobs where it's not at all important to be attractive, are the exception, exhibited say, by diving suits and scrub clothes of doctors and nurses.


Women mainly wear heels to enhance the appearance of longer legs which is reminiscent of young, just 'past puberty' females, indicating fertility but limited exposure to disease, so it's probably got a genetic connection to it. Heels also change the shape of the leg and butt, in ways which often enhance the percentage of men who find that woman attractive.


Simple. Women who wear heels get more sexual attention from men, so those women have a wider choice of mates.


Women aren't satisfied with their figures, because they aren't able to adequately attract a particular man or group of men. This is most evident when a woman is trying to attract a guy who isn't interested in her body type. It also comes into play when she already HAS a male mate, who's interest is waning, so she might think by changing something about her body she may re-ignite the same passion that he had for her before. This goes against a male's natural impulse to have sex with as many different females as possible (the Coolidge effect).


They pressure THEMSELVES into trying to be something they are not. There is no universal ideal woman. men vary in what we are attracted to. You might find Dolly Parton figures the best. I might prefer Twiggy. How is either of them the unachievalbe ideal woman? Simple. Women try to be something that they are not, in order to try to attract a guy who isn't interested in what she is. Instead, it would be better for her to choose a mate out of those who DO find her attractive, just as it is better for men to do this. I believe the old saying is, 'Barking up the wrong tree'.



The problem with their feet, comes from wearing shoes that don't fit. Women put a priority on how a shoe looks, rather than how it feels to wear.


The problem comes when we try to force what we think should be equal. For example, forcing girls into the stem fields whether they want to do it, or not, all because WE think that they should like to do that. You can't tell someone that they have to enjoy something. Either they like it, or they don't. Boys and girls tend to like different things. While yes, those choices should be available to girls, they shouldn't be mandatory for a certain percentage of them. I'd like to add, too, that if you're going to force women to go into stem fields in order to equal the numbers of women in those jobs, then, too, you have to force women into going into grave digging, sewer work, and garbage collection, too. Because women are far under represented in those fields, too. Would you feel comfortable telling girls that they have to go into one of those careers?

It has taken me a couple of days to be able to respond to this. I think that I have now calmed down enough.

I have quoted this more of less in full as I think that the full import of what is said here stands a second reading. The system has omitted where I was being quoted but the whole thing can be seen at #31

I could not disagree more with every single point that is made here. I know that I am constrained by forum rules and I will leave it at that. If I were to say what I really want to say, I would probably not only be suspended but I would be banned.

This is why I started this thread, because, many here don't seem to understand women, they don't seem to have a clue what it's like to be born female and to live a female life. They have avatars which project images of idealised femininity and yet, just under the surface, they seemingly have no respect for that which they strive to emulate.

I am left both baffled and saddened.

Actually, perhaps we ought to think what effect that this post might have in the wider world. We know that there are many lurkers who view and read these threads and who never join and who never post. That's fine, but I would encourage everyone who finds themselves viewing these pages to join up as we can all learn and we all have something that we can pass on to others. What does a post like this say to them?

But, more than that, we know that the forum is used as a resource by women who discover that their partner cross dresses. Indeed, some partners are pointed to this site for them to use as a means of finding out that as a group we're just normal people who live life in a particular way. Now, I might suggest that such women might be drawn into reading this thread as it could be considered to be an important topic. I for one can't imagine what someone who was seeking to find out about us as a group would think should they read the response at #31. I actually fear it could do damage.

But, on the flip side, there have been many, many more heartening responses which give me cause for optimism.

Now, in posting this I really do hope that I haven't crossed any lines, it's not my intention to, but surely, at times we can and should have a robust debate.

[Teresa]

Charlotte,
I'm not conviced women do see it that way , I did feel that might be the case when I started coming out but very few if any give me that impression . I'm not claiming I pass but I don't feel I'm seen as a man who is invading anyone's space even my wife has never picked up on that point . In fact the exact opposite has been more than evident .

The question is do we overthink these issues , the people that succeed the most are the ones that believe in themselves and live their lives accordingly . That is why I don't concern myself with labels anymore , I see people as people often gender doesn't come into it , if a person is amiable to be with , that's how I see myself as Teresa , gender is secondary .

[sometimes_miss]

Charlotte, the thread was do we understand women, not do we blindly accept what they tell us. Just because someone tells you why they do something, doesn't mean that's actually always true. Indeed, WE are a perfect example. Ask a crossdresser why he does it, and you'll get all kinds of answers, many of which make no sense at all. Much of it is clouded by our beliefs and feelings from when we grew up, making us feel terrible about doing it, so we desperately grab at any idea which absolves us of any responsibility regarding making a decision to crossdress. So it's no surprise that when women who are asked why they do things, just might not be giving you an accurate answer either. I base my responses here on observations and what I've read in the many psychology books over the years. Sure, I may be wrong, but just telling me that I'm wrong because it might make a woman feel bad about why she's doing something, doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Much of our behavior is influenced by our need to procreate. Both men and women spend enormous percentages of our time doing things in order to increase the likelihood that we will have sex and that our progeny will survive. We're still stuck in a society where sex is considered a bad thing to be hidden away, that women should be ashamed to admit to enjoying sex with more than one man, that she should never initiate it, etc.. The recent turmoil in the U.S. revolved around a (theoretical) incident which involved teenagers who obviously wanted to have sex, but both sides had to get themselves intoxicated in order to even attempt to go through with it, and both sides were vulnerable to being shamed for how they did it; women, for getting themselves into a position where she would have sex at all, and men, for needing to prove their masculinity by ignoring being told no, otherwise he'd be seen as less of a man; after all, how often have we been told that no means maybe, and maybe means yes, so just keep on doing it? After all, we were (and many still are) told, any girl dressed like that obviously 'wants it'? I know I've heard that from other guys when I was growing up, and it seems for many of the younger generation, nothing's changed. I can't speak for everyone here, but back then, the assumption was that girls like sex too, but that they have to pretend that they don't because it isn't proper. It's a crazy way to live, and we're still stuck with a lot of that.

but if you ask a woman why she dresses the way she does you will almost always be told she is doing so for herself. That is also why I do it. It is nice to look good in the mirror and feel good about yourself.
So it's just a coincidence that what looks good in the mirror also just happens to be what emphasizes her shape, displays her legs, and enhances the shape of her waist curve and her breasts, essentially, the same things that make her sexually attractive to men? Wow, what a coincidence.

There are women who dress conservatively but underneath have gorgeous underwear. No one sees thus underwear but themselves
And we've heard time and time again, about women who make sure that they're wearing good underwear when they're going out on a date to impress, but keep the 'old ratty underwear' for other times. I wonder why any women keep wearing old worn underwear if it makes them feel so bad about themselves, instead of wearing nice stuff if it's that important? Is it only important to feel good about herself sometimes?

she is absolutely not attempting to attract men and enjoys getting compliments from women about what she is wearing.
I had this discussion with a gay woman, who also insisted that she never wore clothes to attract a man; which on the face of it, made sense, but she DID admit to wearing figure hugging outfits that just 'might' be what men find attractive. I find it interesting that what women wear to feel good about themselves, is also just the exact same thing as what makes them attractive to men. After all, they could wear sweats if all that was important was comfort. Girls know from a very early age how to adjust their appearance in order to get the attention of men, and this carries over into adulthood; Having been doing it their entire lives, they seem to automatically connect what just coincidentally is attractive to men, as 'looking good', whether they're actively trying to attract a mate or not.

I doubt I would get the same reaction if I was strutting around in a leather mini skirt and 5" stilettos. Having said that, during daytime my wife would have the same contempt for a genetic woman dressed like that.
You'd have contempt for a woman who's obviously dressing in a way that just happens to attract guys? Wow. I'd hoped that maybe we'd started to leave the puritanical 'sex is always bad' concept in the last century. The whole idea that a woman (or a man) must hide parts of her body away because no one should be allowed to see the 'naughty' parts is, and always has been, ridiculous. Just because the religious institutions shower us with shame because their desires run counter to whaw people really want, doesn't make THEM right, either. Short skirts are bad? Why? Going braless is bad? Why? Why are people so ashamed of certain body parts being visible? Religion. That's why. Because we are told it's bad. By some of the very same people who violate those very beliefs in the worst way.

[susan54]

So it's just a coincidence that what looks good in the mirror also just happens to be what emphasizes her shape, displays her legs, and enhances the shape of her waist curve and her breasts, essentially, the same things that make her sexually attractive to men? Wow, what a coincidence.

And we've heard time and time again, about women who make sure that they're wearing good underwear when they're going out on a date to impress, but keep the 'old ratty underwear' for other times. I wonder why any women keep wearing old worn underwear if it makes them feel so bad about themselves, instead of wearing nice stuff if it's that important? Is it only important to feel good about herself sometimes?



I find this reply a bit troubling. It seems to venture into the "all women who try to look nice are temptresses" camp. They are not. I agree that what people tell you isn't necessarily true - or a lie - people can be fooling themselves. How can a woman who is wearing classy underwear under conservative clothes but not on a date be doing so to attract men? She is doing it for herself.

So ... because I wear an outfit that gives me a good figure and shows my shapely legs that I am trying to attract men? I know I am not. This is not me deceiving myself. I avoid men when I go out dressed - it is not difficult to do and I have to put little effort into it. While agreeing that there are situations where women dress to "pull" many women who have partners put much more effort into what they wear when they are on a girls night out than when they are out with their partner. They are dressing primarily for themselves and other women. This is not them pulling the wool over our eyes or their own - it is what happens in real life.

I get this knowledge by observation, reading (stuff written by women) and by listening to women. It has nothing to do with me crossdressing. What I am claiming is that for some of us we are getting similar satisfaction from dressing as women do - so that enable sus to relate to certain aspects of their relationship with their clothing. Not all, just some. But the crossdressing aids the understanding less than listening to (and reading) what women are saying to us and to each other. I don't think any man or transgender person is in a position to say these women are being dishonest. I am convinced they are not.

[GretchenM]

I agree with Susan that Sometimes_miss is placing way too much emphasis on the attracting men aspect of women's dressing. I am sure there are women who take that approach and if that is what is the case then that is fine. But I seriously doubt a vast majority of women do that and most of the time it doesn't even occur to them when the choose their clothes for the day.

Perhaps what is happening is transferring the stronger sexual drive often found in males to females. Females have different perspectives on sex than males. In the the movie "City Slickers" there was a great line that is probably far more the truth than most people imagine. I am paraphrasing here just a bit. "When it comes to sex men just need a place. Women need a reason." If she is looking at all she is looking for a person to establish a relationship with; sex just becomes a part of that when there is a reason to have sex. And I think there is too much connecting sex and gender in the point of view of clothes being a sexual attractant. There is a connection to be sure, but a vast majority of the time it appears to be a weak one. Emotional connection is far more important than physical attraction. And making emotional connections come from a source far, far deeper than something as superficial as clothes.

Charlotte, I support your post (#57) and your perspective on the quoted comments from Sometimes_miss. You expressed some deep concern about what was said and I agree with that. That said, she does have a right to express those views. One can learn a great deal from information whether it is supportive or not. I will leave it at that and let those who are following this fascinating thread decide for themselves which perspective makes the most sense. But personally I also find what Sometimes-miss has said in her posts to be very concerning for others, mainly lurkers, who read that and wonder, "Who are these people?" We are a diverse lot and some are very different from others. Not good; not bad. It is just the way it is. I also think there is somewhat of the distinction appearing between actually transgender people who may have a much deeper gender reversal in their personality than people that have very little gender reversal but dress in the clothes of the opposite gender for other reasons. Superficially, they may look very much alike, but deeper down they may be very different people.

[Karine]

Very very interesting thread Charlotte.
Just my two cents (sorry for my English).

Do I understand women better since I start to crossdress ?
Yes but only on superficial aspects:
- Yes, Heels are great but paintful.
- Yes, good makeup (more expensive) makes a difference.
- Yes, I always like to try new styles and buy new clothes. Fashion is cool.
- Yes, wearing bra can be uncomfortable at last.
Furthermore, many women don't like all this stuff. For some, being feminine is squarely a society constraint.

In the other hand, I don't have to face all their daily struggles.
- Having less money than men for the same work.
- Creepy behaviour from creepy men.
- Sexual harassment at work.
- Domestic violence.
- And this list is not comprehensive.
(Don't get me wrong, women can do despicable things too)

I try to understand women and help as I would do for any human being whatever is being male, gay, whatever.
I have always been empathetic, trying to put myself in the other person's shoes.
As I often say, women are not all the same. what, maybe, we could do as a human being is helping or rather let women be whoever they want to be (being feminine/not being feminine, having a great career,..).

Do crossdressers really understand women ?
Nope. It's not because you're a crossdresser that you would have empathy.
I started crossdressing 6/7 years ago. Trying to understand, I browsed the internet and read many crossdressers'stories, forums, ..
What I understand is that each of us is very very different; the only thing we have in common for sure is that we like to wear women'clothes.
And we do it for many different reasons, in many different ways.

Karine.

[Rebecca60]

For me to understand them is very different more different if I'm crossdresser mode because I'm not women. Sometime I think they don't understand themselves. Each person is unique and comes with its own set patterns.. In male mode I always try to help them out as best I can. Even pull off the road to help change a tire. Again if I was in high heels and helping change a tire, it just might not work .. but I came across a few that would ask for a wrench and change their own tire. Very good question .